Duolingo: The Antithesis to the Bazaar(nibnalin.me)
nibnalin.me
Duolingo: The Antithesis to the Bazaar
https://nibnalin.me/dust-nib/duolingo-the-antithesis-to-the-bazaar.html
25 comments
As a former daily user for about 2 years I feel that Duolingo's mission has increasingly changed to maximize the time spent on the platform doing pointless tasks, when your goal should really be to minimize your learning time when learning a language.
What makes you say that?
I think a more fair complaint is the content is very mediocre. Don't get me wrong, it's free, so it's hard to complain. But if you attempt to learn a language, Duo has two big flaws.
First, the content is regularly not quite right. Taking Spanish to English as an example, at the higher levels where you translate phrases, it regularly insists on English translations that no native speaker would say. This does not lend confidence to the other translations.
Second, and more importantly: when you get things wrong, it almost never explains why. Why do you use a certain mood in a place, or why is a word that should be a synonym (but maybe not? who knows?) not correct to use in the given sentence? Is it actually incorrect, or is it a shortcoming in the phrase bank? Etc.
What you really need to know is eg you mistakes in the third conditional, or you're misusing certain prepositions and what the rules are. Duolingo really only offers learning by example.
Still, it's free. And you can probably use it to get to A2 or even B1 proficiency.
I think a more fair complaint is the content is very mediocre. Don't get me wrong, it's free, so it's hard to complain. But if you attempt to learn a language, Duo has two big flaws.
First, the content is regularly not quite right. Taking Spanish to English as an example, at the higher levels where you translate phrases, it regularly insists on English translations that no native speaker would say. This does not lend confidence to the other translations.
Second, and more importantly: when you get things wrong, it almost never explains why. Why do you use a certain mood in a place, or why is a word that should be a synonym (but maybe not? who knows?) not correct to use in the given sentence? Is it actually incorrect, or is it a shortcoming in the phrase bank? Etc.
What you really need to know is eg you mistakes in the third conditional, or you're misusing certain prepositions and what the rules are. Duolingo really only offers learning by example.
Still, it's free. And you can probably use it to get to A2 or even B1 proficiency.
What I didn't realise until recently was that Duolingo's web version contains written material on grammar that is completely inaccessible on mobile. It is very very frustrating to know that what must be their main platform receives a slightly inferior service, even for paying customers.
If it makes you feel any better, the grammar material is superficial. At best.
You'd do far better to download a syllabus from a college class for your desired language, find the text, and buy Edition n-1 on Amazon for like $10.
You'd do far better to download a syllabus from a college class for your desired language, find the text, and buy Edition n-1 on Amazon for like $10.
They've recently added gamification tasks to rapidly increase your daily score by repeatedly rehashing things you've already learned, pushing you towards staying in the same place instead of moving on to new lessons.
I find the popups and bubbles that push you towards those annoying and have been using the app less because of it.
I find the popups and bubbles that push you towards those annoying and have been using the app less because of it.
[deleted]
In their defense, there are sometimes good explanations in the comments when you get things wrong and those end up helping. Though, I agree that it isn't content that is provided or verified by their team and it is something coming from the user community.
> Duolingo's mission [...] to maximize the time spent on the platform doing pointless tasks
>> What makes you say that?
Anyone who wanted to optimize quizzes for language-learning would alphabetize the palette, but Duolingo present words in a jumble: learners have to play 'Where's Waldo'.
By creating useless busy-work, such a design provides the illusion of language-learning. There are many other examples (eg: how effective are Duolingo's ubiquitous 'Type what you hear' exercises really?) but the word-palette design is particularly glaring.
[deleted]
> The learning flywheel: The greater the scale of our learner base, the more we can use insights from data analytics to improve both engagement and efficacy.
Iterating on education efficacy is valuable but it doesn't really very much matter if the material you're trying to teach is wrong (2+2=5) or if it doesn't translate (heh) to real life skills outside of the application. Particularly for language learning, where the goal is generally to find ways to consume or utilize the language outside of Duolingo, you are judging it based on how effectively Duolingo prepares you for that task.
Tailoring lessons to specific learners and recognizing and understanding their learning patterns is a great way to enhance learning for just about anything. In that regard I think Duolingo is doing something interesting, if not incredibly obvious. I also like that the lesson paths give some flexibility on what sort of stuff you want to learn about while maintaining your 'streak.' Gamification, while not for everyone, clearly is a model that works to keep people engaged.
The issue is that we're not just judging it based on engagement, at least if you buy the premise that they're trying to provide a high-quality education for free to anyone that wants it. The quality is sometimes questionable depending on the course you're doing and the pacing, even if you consider that they design it to adapt to different learners, can be remarkably slow. It also doesn't seem to really compare favorably against dedicated self learning or classroom instruction in terms of time spent versus how much you learn. How much does their engagement rate suffer if they tailor the course to increase fluency in a similar time frame alternative methods can offer? I suspect it'd reduce quite a bit, so it doesn't change too much.
This is why if someone asks me about learning a language I would suggest perhaps to look at an app like Duolingo or Lingodeer or any other app that aims to compete with Duolingo as only a starting point to assess how committed you are to learning the language. If they can maintain a streak on Duolingo it at least shows that they may be committed enough to tackle a more challenging but more rewarding learning regimen that will increase their mastery of their target language in a much shorter time frame.
I understand that people's commitment to language learning varies a lot. In fact I think Duolingo really understands this and depends on it for their monetization strategies. I think it's perfectly fine to use something like Duolingo if it fits your needs and I think that for the vast majority of people they'll find it easier to use and more engaging than alternative methods. I just want to keep people's expectations in check (you probably won't achieve fluency through Duolingo alone) and that alternatives will be a better use of your time if you are more committed to it.
Language learning can be incredibly dull and frustrating at times which are really bad for engagement and as such Duolingo is going to try and design around that, but it's the reality of any foreign language you learn. There's some really basic stuff that you really don't care about and your brain simply doesn't want to remember but you have to force it into your head over and over until it sticks. Doing this gets you to your goal of enjoying consumption of the language through movies, tv shows, music, books, comics, and people much faster.
> At the time of filing the S-1, Duolingo had a team of ~280 software engineers, product designers and product managers. Approximately 20% of them were on functional engineering teams, building and maintaining foundational infrastructure, while the remaining 80% were on product teams, iterating on features as well as researching and prototyping new product extensions.
I'd be more interested in learning how many educators, linguists, and language teachers they have on staff or if they're still relying on purely crowd sourced language learning resources that have been pretty wrong in the past. Iterating new features to increase engagement or "learning efficacy" is great, but you need to have good curriculum first. If they're committed to providing "high-quality education" for anyone that wants it, it starts from that.
Iterating on education efficacy is valuable but it doesn't really very much matter if the material you're trying to teach is wrong (2+2=5) or if it doesn't translate (heh) to real life skills outside of the application. Particularly for language learning, where the goal is generally to find ways to consume or utilize the language outside of Duolingo, you are judging it based on how effectively Duolingo prepares you for that task.
Tailoring lessons to specific learners and recognizing and understanding their learning patterns is a great way to enhance learning for just about anything. In that regard I think Duolingo is doing something interesting, if not incredibly obvious. I also like that the lesson paths give some flexibility on what sort of stuff you want to learn about while maintaining your 'streak.' Gamification, while not for everyone, clearly is a model that works to keep people engaged.
The issue is that we're not just judging it based on engagement, at least if you buy the premise that they're trying to provide a high-quality education for free to anyone that wants it. The quality is sometimes questionable depending on the course you're doing and the pacing, even if you consider that they design it to adapt to different learners, can be remarkably slow. It also doesn't seem to really compare favorably against dedicated self learning or classroom instruction in terms of time spent versus how much you learn. How much does their engagement rate suffer if they tailor the course to increase fluency in a similar time frame alternative methods can offer? I suspect it'd reduce quite a bit, so it doesn't change too much.
This is why if someone asks me about learning a language I would suggest perhaps to look at an app like Duolingo or Lingodeer or any other app that aims to compete with Duolingo as only a starting point to assess how committed you are to learning the language. If they can maintain a streak on Duolingo it at least shows that they may be committed enough to tackle a more challenging but more rewarding learning regimen that will increase their mastery of their target language in a much shorter time frame.
I understand that people's commitment to language learning varies a lot. In fact I think Duolingo really understands this and depends on it for their monetization strategies. I think it's perfectly fine to use something like Duolingo if it fits your needs and I think that for the vast majority of people they'll find it easier to use and more engaging than alternative methods. I just want to keep people's expectations in check (you probably won't achieve fluency through Duolingo alone) and that alternatives will be a better use of your time if you are more committed to it.
Language learning can be incredibly dull and frustrating at times which are really bad for engagement and as such Duolingo is going to try and design around that, but it's the reality of any foreign language you learn. There's some really basic stuff that you really don't care about and your brain simply doesn't want to remember but you have to force it into your head over and over until it sticks. Doing this gets you to your goal of enjoying consumption of the language through movies, tv shows, music, books, comics, and people much faster.
> At the time of filing the S-1, Duolingo had a team of ~280 software engineers, product designers and product managers. Approximately 20% of them were on functional engineering teams, building and maintaining foundational infrastructure, while the remaining 80% were on product teams, iterating on features as well as researching and prototyping new product extensions.
I'd be more interested in learning how many educators, linguists, and language teachers they have on staff or if they're still relying on purely crowd sourced language learning resources that have been pretty wrong in the past. Iterating new features to increase engagement or "learning efficacy" is great, but you need to have good curriculum first. If they're committed to providing "high-quality education" for anyone that wants it, it starts from that.
To continue dumping on Duolingo: we had one guy join our D&D group intended to improve our target language (so all interaction at the gaming table in target language) who swore he had done two years of Duolingo and was well prepared. Couldn't speak a lick of the language so it was only English from them the whole campaign.
Want to learn a language? Please don't do it with Duolingo.
Want to learn a language? Please don't do it with Duolingo.
I tend to agree.
I've been using Duolingo for almost 2 years now. It has learned me to understand the language a bit.
But don't ask me to build a proper sentence myself. I'm utterly lost in that case, because it doesn't teach you having a real conversation. That includes even the most simple real life things like ordering at a restaurant and then complain that your food is cold.
I've been using Duolingo for almost 2 years now. It has learned me to understand the language a bit.
But don't ask me to build a proper sentence myself. I'm utterly lost in that case, because it doesn't teach you having a real conversation. That includes even the most simple real life things like ordering at a restaurant and then complain that your food is cold.
To me learning languages through apps always seemed like learning to swim by reading a textbook. There is too much tacit knowledge in language acquisition, it really only works through real immersion in the culture and people who speak it.
Duolingo can be a good compliment for regular language study.
The number one complement to regular language study is flashcards you make yourself not the, "bears party on the dance floor," style sentences Duolingo offers.
I had ~500 day streak on duolingo for french. Sometimes just 1 lesson a day, often more. I got a french book of various names, animals, things, etc. I knew nothing. I thought I'd know a good chunk.
I tested myself and I knew nothing. Duolingo is trash.
>Want to learn a language? Please don't do it with Duolingo.
But then what should you use?
I tested myself and I knew nothing. Duolingo is trash.
>Want to learn a language? Please don't do it with Duolingo.
But then what should you use?
Immersion, but since that isn't feasible for most people, traditional textbooks with a teacher, Mango Languages or similar software, consuming media in the target language, etc. And ideally in combination with each other so you're doing a bit of reading, listening, and speaking.
Anki with self-made cards worked best for me.
If your target language happens to be Japanese or Chinese, feel free to checkout my blog https://dayjaby.wordpress.com
If your target language happens to be Japanese or Chinese, feel free to checkout my blog https://dayjaby.wordpress.com
Babble helped me quite a bit with my french
How many people actually use Duolingo in real life for serious language learning? I’ve met people who sue Rosetta, Babbel, Pimsleur, etc. But Duolingo seems like something people try out as a hobby or distraction more so than a commitment.
> I’ve met people who sue Rosetta, Babbel, Pimsleur, etc.
For a second my mind processed that typo as "damn, people really hate Rosetta!"
For a second my mind processed that typo as "damn, people really hate Rosetta!"
I've used it to try to seriously learn german in the past and it was helpful. I'm using it for spanish now and while I agree with some of the comments here that's it's not perfect it's also the best thing that's not an in-person class I've ever used.
The thing that stopped me from using Duolingo in the past is that I couldn't even start the app without giving full access to my contacts.
This isn't the case now and hasn't been for at least a few years
People are being pretty harsh on Duolingo.
Having used it, my biggest issue was misalignment with my goal of being able to speak. Verbal is the weakest part of their offering, the emphasis is on reading & writing which I don't care much about. I found it an OK way of learning new vocabulary.
Having used it, my biggest issue was misalignment with my goal of being able to speak. Verbal is the weakest part of their offering, the emphasis is on reading & writing which I don't care much about. I found it an OK way of learning new vocabulary.