Online meetings are levelling the office playing field(theguardian.com)
theguardian.com
Online meetings are levelling the office playing field
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2021/oct/22/how-online-meetings-are-levelling-the-office-playing-field
65 comments
What do you think the point of the article is? The title say that the playing field is levelling, not that it has levelled. It's not binary or a target - it is a situation which is happening. The article offers both for and against the situation being played out. There's no definite conclusion in the text of the article and no disproving of a certain point.
I, for one, thought the point was pro-business virtue signaling. The Guardian seems consistent.
If I’m understanding correctly, the playing field is “levelled” in favor of people who tend to be late for meetings because of poor time management.
Additionally, “masculine hegemons” can no longer use their arm-waving skills to win arguments.
Hard-hitting journalism from The Guardian, as usual.
Additionally, “masculine hegemons” can no longer use their arm-waving skills to win arguments.
Hard-hitting journalism from The Guardian, as usual.
I don't think you understand correctly.
You are not understanding correctly, no - you have presented a rather colourful and uncharitable interpretation of the totally reasonable point being made.
I’m not a woman so the point isn’t quite the same, but I can absolutely observe the effect of online meetings generally reducing the temptation of certain people to dominate the conversation.
I’m not a woman so the point isn’t quite the same, but I can absolutely observe the effect of online meetings generally reducing the temptation of certain people to dominate the conversation.
If we were having this conversation in real life, I bet I would change your mind if I employed my appendages with sufficient vigor.
I concede I was being hyperbolic and uncharitable. I don’t think the article deserves much better, though.
I concede I was being hyperbolic and uncharitable. I don’t think the article deserves much better, though.
Men moving their arms. Sounds like some hard hitting sexism to me.
No one said it was "hard hitting sexism" whatever that is.
> If I’m understanding correctly, the playing field is “levelled” in favor of people who tend to be late for meetings because of poor time management.
Could one assume that people who prefer meetings (online or in person) over an online text conversation or email thread have poor written communication and reading comprehension skills?
Could one assume that people who prefer meetings (online or in person) over an online text conversation or email thread have poor written communication and reading comprehension skills?
I don't think one can assume that. Text chat and email work very well among people who share a technical/domain vocabulary and a mental model of the system/problem. But when that premise is not present, actual meetings are much more productive.
Certainly. But that’s not the argument the article is making.
A look behind the curtain is often revealing. Ill never forget that Huffington Post editor team photo: https://twitter.com/lheron/status/733758898855940098?s=20
They really need to work on their gender diversity.
Yeah, online meetings require different skills to be effective communicators than in real life, so different people in groups may be more effective or visible in their communication.
I don’t do well IRL, but online I can shine.
I don’t do well IRL, but online I can shine.
I'm not sure I see where the article talks about poor time management?
The article’s lead in story is about time constraints affecting an attendee. I think it’s condescending to refer to that as poor time management though.
A better spin from OP would have been
“… in favor of people whose contributions to society complicate their ability to attend the round the clock marathon of back to back meetings that all seem to suspiciously last for an about hour versus those who have few skills and positive contributions to make to the world at large and worked into a system where the only valuable thing they have to offer is to endlessly discuss things.”
I do agree with OP’s sentiment that the article was pretty shallow and tropish. Not much new or insightful. Almost like a group of editors had a meeting and asked “what should we run today?” And an hourish later, we got this.
A better spin from OP would have been
“… in favor of people whose contributions to society complicate their ability to attend the round the clock marathon of back to back meetings that all seem to suspiciously last for an about hour versus those who have few skills and positive contributions to make to the world at large and worked into a system where the only valuable thing they have to offer is to endlessly discuss things.”
I do agree with OP’s sentiment that the article was pretty shallow and tropish. Not much new or insightful. Almost like a group of editors had a meeting and asked “what should we run today?” And an hourish later, we got this.
That was my admittedly uncharitable interpretation of the article subject’s preference for online meetings. They reported missing a lot of in-person meetings because of parental responsibilities, and the article suggests they are therefore unfairly disadvantaged.
If anything, it seems to me like they have a fairly reasonable employer and working environment.
If anything, it seems to me like they have a fairly reasonable employer and working environment.
Online makes it waay easier to manage parental responsibilities vs meetings. Mostly because in person variant os comparably absurdly wasteful. It don't block you only during meeting, but both before and after.
Online also makes meetings more effective, people are less likely to go forever and waste everybody time. And, when they go forever, you use their empty blabbing for some chores.
So, yeah, you loose disadvantage at no cost to actual work effectivity.
Online also makes meetings more effective, people are less likely to go forever and waste everybody time. And, when they go forever, you use their empty blabbing for some chores.
So, yeah, you loose disadvantage at no cost to actual work effectivity.
Oh, I was in no way defending in-person meetings. I do take issue with the article’s implication that its subject’s perpetual tardiness (presumably tolerated by their employer and co-workers) is the result of discriminatory workplace environment.
Thats a euphemism for not donating every waking hour to work and for example bringing your kids to school.
Some aspect of this may come off as offensive, but frankly there was a certain amount of sexualizing gaze I had to deal with from both sides of the aisle that made things like meetings rather unfocused, and I don't think that'd change if I moved jobs (btw I'm not interested in "playing the field" or some such). Being able to elect to only pass on my voice in meetings is so much more beneficial for clear, conducive discussion for everyone instead of having to negotiate the unspoken politics of desiring gazes when we're in a place of business. There are enough people think they absolutely have a right to let you know how interested they are, and frankly, one simply shouldn't have to negotiate that at work (and enough people demonstrate they don't realize how bad they are with implicit/explicit rejection; not to mention the side effects of other people picking up on this phenonmenon that creates visible, needless resentful behavior). The minute you speak up about this, everyone wants to act like its not happening or that its your problem somehow ("don't you like it? isn't it flattering?"). But this is exactly how harassment and escalations of such happen for anyone.
There just isn't a good solution for "opting out" from this behavior in-office, so remote work has been a great boon in this direction in particular.
There just isn't a good solution for "opting out" from this behavior in-office, so remote work has been a great boon in this direction in particular.
It is too bad for your coworkers, though. A pretty person on the team makes my work satisfaction and motivation just skyrocket. This effect lasts for years and to me almost justifies the wage premium. They must have not been too offended at the sexualizing gaze since we ended up going on work walks or becoming Facebook friends. I think it was pretty much just upside.
Think about the effect on your career of being ugly.
And that's kinda it, enough people don't realize how immature/unprofessional they can be, implicitly and explicitly, when physically co-located. You should be able to abstract from that in a place of business and maybe a culture of remote work makes that more possible than otherwise. One has all the time and space to impose their preferences outside of the workplace.
Both extremes can have it bad. A little compassion goes a long way.
Frankly, it's because you're (we/most people with bosses) -- more or less -- are glorified modern serfs, whom the lords (bosses) hold power over.
A solution to this is "being more entrepreneurial," wherein you can decide who you work with -- albeit, with sane expectations (e.g. you're not going to scale to $100m value without having to eat a lot of shit, but that's true with climbing the corporate ladder too).
A solution to this is "being more entrepreneurial," wherein you can decide who you work with -- albeit, with sane expectations (e.g. you're not going to scale to $100m value without having to eat a lot of shit, but that's true with climbing the corporate ladder too).
There are many with serious medical issues that have blossomed with digital meetings. They can attend meetings without leaving their (home) office which is setup with the accommodations they need.
It is unlevelling for me. I have one room where basically everything that my family does happens and it is the only place to put a desk. It is noisy. It is very distracting. I am physically "at home" so my family expect me to be able to help out and do things, but I am mentally trying to be "at work" so I end up doing a half-assed job of both.
I can't move out of London so that I can afford a place with a dedicated study/office room because "hybrid working" means I still need to be within commuting distance (any property within commuting distance is £,£££,£££, even before covid). Hybrid working rules at my place mean I can only physically go to the office a couple of days a week (e.g. cannot do Mon to Fri, but have to go in on assigned days)
It is professionally crippling, at least for me.
Edit: comments about "just do a longer commute the days you do go in" are valid, but not applicable here: I have care commitments that can't be ignored while I am on a train.
I can't move out of London so that I can afford a place with a dedicated study/office room because "hybrid working" means I still need to be within commuting distance (any property within commuting distance is £,£££,£££, even before covid). Hybrid working rules at my place mean I can only physically go to the office a couple of days a week (e.g. cannot do Mon to Fri, but have to go in on assigned days)
It is professionally crippling, at least for me.
Edit: comments about "just do a longer commute the days you do go in" are valid, but not applicable here: I have care commitments that can't be ignored while I am on a train.
Yes, for many, working remotely is not sustainable. You definitely need a quiet and private space to work. If you have that at home, great. But many don’t have that luxury.
Personally, my home setup is much better than working in an office, so I plan to work remotely indefinitely if possible. But it is not for everyone and office cultures would do well to ensure in office and home office workers are able to have similar experiences.
Personally, my home setup is much better than working in an office, so I plan to work remotely indefinitely if possible. But it is not for everyone and office cultures would do well to ensure in office and home office workers are able to have similar experiences.
You don't. I have a 3 years old and a 6 months old, I specifically asked to be in the living room with my desk so that I could have them with me during the day.
Sometimes they bother me, but more than 90% of the time they do well, they realize I work and my wife too.
Set the expectations for your family,I think that's really it.
And yeah, I'll have my daughter on my lap during meetings, or I'll be standing while rocking the baby occasionally. No problem, colleagues are understanding and I'm actually performing very well, so it should be possible for others to handle this.
Obviously a different business is if there is no fully dedicated care (e.g. Both parents work)
Set the expectations for your family,I think that's really it.
And yeah, I'll have my daughter on my lap during meetings, or I'll be standing while rocking the baby occasionally. No problem, colleagues are understanding and I'm actually performing very well, so it should be possible for others to handle this.
Obviously a different business is if there is no fully dedicated care (e.g. Both parents work)
If you’re commuting once or twice a week, you don’t have to be very close to the office. You could make the distance little longer making travel a little hectic only for 2 days but for 5 days you get a bigger house.
This doesn't seem related to the article at all, just a vent in response to the headline.
How would you summarize the article? I wouldn't have read it, had you not complained about this poster.
Let me share what I gathered:
1. Francesca really likes working from home. She has the time to pick her son from school and feels empowered but she's also worried because Johnson and other British conservatives are pushing against "work-from-homers"
2. "The permanent secretary for the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, Sarah Healey, recently told staff that she would keep online meetings, because they were more effective and also helped women participate."
3. “Being interrupted and talked over puts women off from speaking out in meetings – it silences them,” she says. “On Zoom, interruptions are very messy, if people just try and shout over others everything sort of seizes up.”
4. “In physical offices we have what sociologists call a hegemonic masculine organisational culture, where white male characteristics are seen as virtues,” she says. “To think online spaces can completely remove that culture is a bit too naive but maybe some of those ingrained habits can change – if people are reflective.”
What did I just read?
Let me share what I gathered:
1. Francesca really likes working from home. She has the time to pick her son from school and feels empowered but she's also worried because Johnson and other British conservatives are pushing against "work-from-homers"
2. "The permanent secretary for the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, Sarah Healey, recently told staff that she would keep online meetings, because they were more effective and also helped women participate."
3. “Being interrupted and talked over puts women off from speaking out in meetings – it silences them,” she says. “On Zoom, interruptions are very messy, if people just try and shout over others everything sort of seizes up.”
4. “In physical offices we have what sociologists call a hegemonic masculine organisational culture, where white male characteristics are seen as virtues,” she says. “To think online spaces can completely remove that culture is a bit too naive but maybe some of those ingrained habits can change – if people are reflective.”
What did I just read?
> I can't move out of London so that I can afford a place with a dedicated study/office room because "hybrid working"
Factoring in what you've said, you don't have access to a dedicated environment and don't see how to make moving out further to afford the dedicated space a possibility. That makes it clear to take advantage of the space your employer is offering you then. Go into the office.
If you don't want to commute into the office every day, the other replies below are the path. Instead of commuting 30 mins each way into the office M-F move further out, commute 1 hour each way but on Monday & Friday. You're still spending less time in a week commuting but now live further out.
Factoring in what you've said, you don't have access to a dedicated environment and don't see how to make moving out further to afford the dedicated space a possibility. That makes it clear to take advantage of the space your employer is offering you then. Go into the office.
If you don't want to commute into the office every day, the other replies below are the path. Instead of commuting 30 mins each way into the office M-F move further out, commute 1 hour each way but on Monday & Friday. You're still spending less time in a week commuting but now live further out.
This is a completely valid point and I think it’s really important in this conversation about work environment to bear it in mind. Too many people seem to assume that their environment is universal, but home or hybrid working is not a panacea and different people in different situations can face a wide variety of challenges.
However it’s pout out at least that keeping meetings online even when present in the office can be a really useful tool for helping everyone to have equitable access. The assumption that all of our meetings are done online from individual devices wherever possible has made it much easier for remote and in-office workers to collaborate on the same level.
However it’s pout out at least that keeping meetings online even when present in the office can be a really useful tool for helping everyone to have equitable access. The assumption that all of our meetings are done online from individual devices wherever possible has made it much easier for remote and in-office workers to collaborate on the same level.
If you're only going in once or twice a week you can afford to live much further out. You can live 20 miles from zone 1 and still get a train in in 25 minutes.
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I take important meetings in the car. The iPhone has a great new voice isolation mode on the mic that deletes almost all background noise.
Peak capitalism when at-home workers are forced to sit in their cars to have remote meetings.
“Arggghh!!! I can’t believe my employer lets me perform knowledge work from the comfort of my home and pays me enough, so I can use my sci-fi like smartphone from my private car, because my well-fed children are making too much noise from the mountains of toys we can afford for them!
What a garbage economic system we live in!”
What a garbage economic system we live in!”
haha the horror!
Meh, the reality is that sometimes we have to be flexible. Even in the office it was sometimes hard to find a quiet place (construction, open office chats, etc.).
Can't you go 5/5 days at the office, even if the meeting is online? I know many people who are doing this.
Find a truly remote role?
Equity never means strictly bringing the lower end up to the top. It also means chopping the top down. You were the top. You could afford to live in a very expensive city and have proximity to good jobs and other nice things.
> It also means chopping the top down.
The fact that you say this without at least the slightest hint of awareness of why many people now shudder at what cries for "equity" have morphed into highlights why the backlash against equity programs is growing.
And I find this incredibly disappointing, because I do believe that equity programs that try to raise opportunity and standards for all is a good thing, but all too often I've seen it just morph into "Tall Poppy Syndrome".
The fact that you say this without at least the slightest hint of awareness of why many people now shudder at what cries for "equity" have morphed into highlights why the backlash against equity programs is growing.
And I find this incredibly disappointing, because I do believe that equity programs that try to raise opportunity and standards for all is a good thing, but all too often I've seen it just morph into "Tall Poppy Syndrome".
The only morphing was when "equality of opportunity" which is simultaneously nonsensical and undesirable morphed into "equality of outcome" (equity) which is simultaneously more coherent and depraved. Chopping off the top (unless you are a party member) was always part of it.
In a neighboring high school where I grew up, kids during physical education class weren’t allowed to lap anyone during running (to protect feelings). You can imagine what that looked like. Ha
Did you go to Harrison Bergeron High? /jk
Well, if it's any comfort, history shows that plenty of short poppies get mowed down collaterally in these events. You'll find a wonderful equity in the mass graves.
Are you endorsing this state of affairs?
I endorse everyone in wealthy countries who pushes equity movements to be driven to the global median income. And while we're at it force their children into median schools.
Ah, gotcha. I think we are in agreement then.
I have ADD. The last 18 months have been incredibly difficult for me. During in-person meetings, I'm able to mostly focus on what's being said and participate as needed. In online meetings, I invariably zone out and miss everything.
I don't doubt that online work has helped a lot of people participate, but as with all things it's an environment that will work better for some and worse for others. What we should have is both—companies and teams where the expectation is that you'll come to the office every day and meet in a conference room, and companies and teams where most meetings are done online.
I don't doubt that online work has helped a lot of people participate, but as with all things it's an environment that will work better for some and worse for others. What we should have is both—companies and teams where the expectation is that you'll come to the office every day and meet in a conference room, and companies and teams where most meetings are done online.
I have ADHD as well as a few of my colleagues(we talk about it pretty openly, which is also great, but likely belongs on another thread). A lot of folks on the ADHD spectrum have chosen to RTO early in my group, due to the things you've mentioned. It's not just meetings. The ADHD people usually will report things like, it's easier to stay focused on code in the office, with few distractions. Though, tbh, the office right now for me is a dream - we're at voluntary RTO. There's 20% occupancy, it's very quiet, no home distractions, and sets the scene change my ADHD needs to remind my brain it's at work.
I agree that there's so many different ways to work, that one modality is never going to make everyone happy.
I agree that there's so many different ways to work, that one modality is never going to make everyone happy.
> I have ADD. The last 18 months have been incredibly difficult for me. During in-person meetings, I'm able to mostly focus on what's being said and participate as needed. In online meetings, I invariably zone out and miss everything.
Are you my boss?
Seriously though, I’d be working 100% from my home if my boss could parse anything from video meetings. But he can’t, so I’m in once a week for all our project meetings. I don’t actually mind it most of the time, I like the break from home and being able to whiteboard.
I agree that fully remote work isn’t the universally level playing field so many are making it out to be.
Are you my boss?
Seriously though, I’d be working 100% from my home if my boss could parse anything from video meetings. But he can’t, so I’m in once a week for all our project meetings. I don’t actually mind it most of the time, I like the break from home and being able to whiteboard.
I agree that fully remote work isn’t the universally level playing field so many are making it out to be.
Wouldn't the same be valid for men that have kids?
Not just women. They've been a big boon for anyone with certain types of physical disabilities. I have several levels of my spine surgically fused and can't really sit or stand or be still for too long, because my hips lock up and my back seizes on the side where they took the bone graft and pulls me to the left and starts throbbing. That had the effect of making 30 min+ meetings somewhat awkward because I was constantly standing up and walking around. There was also the fact that I need frequent breaks to lay down and decompress a bit through the day.
No longer an issue at all now that I don't have to be in a job where someone expects me to be in one position in one place in one room for hours at a time to get work done. Going for a walk or laying in bed for a meeting is no problem.
It is long past time we actually used the remote communication ability our handheld networking and computing devices have enabled and quit pretending it's still 1960. If ISIS can manage war campaigns over WhatsApp, I think your business can figure out a way to make it work.
No longer an issue at all now that I don't have to be in a job where someone expects me to be in one position in one place in one room for hours at a time to get work done. Going for a walk or laying in bed for a meeting is no problem.
It is long past time we actually used the remote communication ability our handheld networking and computing devices have enabled and quit pretending it's still 1960. If ISIS can manage war campaigns over WhatsApp, I think your business can figure out a way to make it work.
I am pretty sure you need more creativity and ideas to make a modern business successful than to blow up things and shoot people.
War is more than pulling a trigger. It’s leadership, logistics, planning, education, communication… all global problem solving with deadly consequences.
There is a reason so many vets get into business or consulting.
There is a reason so many vets get into business or consulting.
I realise this is about meetings but working from home is terrible for me. Working from home is like how I imagine most people would feel sleeping in the office. I just cant really do it at all.
I've already got a final warning work, and it still feels impossible to do anything from at home. It's effected my self esteem and really damaged my career. I think I'll try to get an ADHD diagnosis and then I'll be considered disabled and will maybe get some help and legal protection.
I've already got a final warning work, and it still feels impossible to do anything from at home. It's effected my self esteem and really damaged my career. I think I'll try to get an ADHD diagnosis and then I'll be considered disabled and will maybe get some help and legal protection.
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The pandemic has made it blindingly obvious that this has been true for at least ten years. The same corporate innovation that led to offshoring set the stage for making remote work feasible.
And it's not just zoom. In fact the biggest driver is Slack/Teams and the like. Everyone has an equal voice on slack. Interruption is impossible. Thoughts can be curated, recorded and edited in real time. And it can all be asynchronous.
And it's not just zoom. In fact the biggest driver is Slack/Teams and the like. Everyone has an equal voice on slack. Interruption is impossible. Thoughts can be curated, recorded and edited in real time. And it can all be asynchronous.
So they disprove their own point by the end of the article...