Ask HN: Am I Lazy?
I am having trouble focusing at work (IC, software architect), or finding motivation to do anything. It has gotten to the point where I fear for my job. I push through, somehow, because of this fear, of not being able to support my family, losing our home. But I’ve noticed I lash out at whoever interrupts me, which happens often. It’s like I’m on the edge all the time. I feel bad after. I am adding to already bad atmosphere at work. They tolerate me because I’ve been here for 15 years. I thought about changing jobs, but all the job ads look the same as what I do now. Am I just spoiled and lazy? Any thoughts on how to overcome this?
36 comments
You are depressed. In the following order:
(1) Do aerobic exercise. Ideally a lot of aerobic exercise, like you were training for a marathon. Two hours a day of cardio would be great with maybe 2 days off a week. Don't let that get in the way of doing 30 min or 1 hour, or some serious walking or running.
(2) See your primary care doc. You should get your thyroid checked, maybe some other general workup. Consider a prescription for an SNRI or SSRI antidepressant. For best results you should start with a low dose and follow up with your doc to possibly increase it or try something else.
(3) See a talk therapist. In my area we have a service called "Family & Childrens" which is good quality and takes health insurance but has a long waiting list. Betterhelp doesn't take health insurance but can have you talking to somebody almost immediately online.
(1) Do aerobic exercise. Ideally a lot of aerobic exercise, like you were training for a marathon. Two hours a day of cardio would be great with maybe 2 days off a week. Don't let that get in the way of doing 30 min or 1 hour, or some serious walking or running.
(2) See your primary care doc. You should get your thyroid checked, maybe some other general workup. Consider a prescription for an SNRI or SSRI antidepressant. For best results you should start with a low dose and follow up with your doc to possibly increase it or try something else.
(3) See a talk therapist. In my area we have a service called "Family & Childrens" which is good quality and takes health insurance but has a long waiting list. Betterhelp doesn't take health insurance but can have you talking to somebody almost immediately online.
In the following order
Telling a depressed person to start doing exercise and only then see a doctor is irresponsible.
OP: Make an appointment to speak to a doctor. It's very easy to put this step off indefinitely because of views like "I'm not doing enough to work on my laziness / depression." The problem is that depression literally prevent you from doing that work.
Telling a depressed person to start doing exercise and only then see a doctor is irresponsible.
OP: Make an appointment to speak to a doctor. It's very easy to put this step off indefinitely because of views like "I'm not doing enough to work on my laziness / depression." The problem is that depression literally prevent you from doing that work.
Sure.
Make the appointment right away. Start doing the exercise before you get to see the doctor.
Make the appointment right away. Start doing the exercise before you get to see the doctor.
Re 1: start with the thought of getting 30-60min of walking with sporadic jogging. Once you either get used to that to the point of hungering for that walking time or you get an urge for more vigor, then escalate to a training regimen.
Re 2: very yes. And be willing to call a friend m/family while they sit on the phone to give you courage to push through the life admin.
Re 3: very yes.
I’ll add a fourth: improve your sleep consistency. Turn off overhead lights at night. If you can’t sleep on a particular night, then keep your attention on some bodily sensation and Wake up at the same time in the morning both weekends and weekdays and go outside to look at plants which are illuminated by natural light for 5 minutes.
Re 2: very yes. And be willing to call a friend m/family while they sit on the phone to give you courage to push through the life admin.
Re 3: very yes.
I’ll add a fourth: improve your sleep consistency. Turn off overhead lights at night. If you can’t sleep on a particular night, then keep your attention on some bodily sensation and Wake up at the same time in the morning both weekends and weekdays and go outside to look at plants which are illuminated by natural light for 5 minutes.
Ah, if only it were so easy to cure depression and general anxiety. Also, consider the 3rd step to take months if not years, unless you want to go the medication route and just remove the symptoms altogether.
I've been in talk therapy for 18 months, best decision ever, I can easily imagine it to require 18 more months before the work we're doing actually sticks and creates lifelong value.
I've been in talk therapy for 18 months, best decision ever, I can easily imagine it to require 18 more months before the work we're doing actually sticks and creates lifelong value.
Talk therapy can be 100% as good as you say it is.
Every 7-10 years or so most people encounter times of crisis that usually resolve in 2 to 3 years. See
https://www.amazon.com/Wisdom-Ego-George-Vaillant/dp/0674953...
An extended psychotherapy like the one Freud wrote about spans such a period. Personally I have gotten much benefit from 10 sessions of therapy in a pinch.
The Exercise and the SNRI/SSRI work together with the talk therapy when you are in crisis. They counteract damage that stress does to the nervous system. You've still got access to your feelings, but your immediate response is attenuated.
As you heal you should still exercise but would probably stop taking the meds, preferably with the agreement of your doc.
Beyond therapy there are many things you can do to heal and grow. It is great to pick up some project you'd abandoned long ago. For instance one middle-aged woman wanted to ride horses when she was a girl and started riding at my stable.
Search for meaning. Right now I am doing an art project and looking for answers in psychology, sociology, literature, etc.
Every 7-10 years or so most people encounter times of crisis that usually resolve in 2 to 3 years. See
https://www.amazon.com/Wisdom-Ego-George-Vaillant/dp/0674953...
An extended psychotherapy like the one Freud wrote about spans such a period. Personally I have gotten much benefit from 10 sessions of therapy in a pinch.
The Exercise and the SNRI/SSRI work together with the talk therapy when you are in crisis. They counteract damage that stress does to the nervous system. You've still got access to your feelings, but your immediate response is attenuated.
As you heal you should still exercise but would probably stop taking the meds, preferably with the agreement of your doc.
Beyond therapy there are many things you can do to heal and grow. It is great to pick up some project you'd abandoned long ago. For instance one middle-aged woman wanted to ride horses when she was a girl and started riding at my stable.
Search for meaning. Right now I am doing an art project and looking for answers in psychology, sociology, literature, etc.
These are anxiety symptoms, not depression. Everyone should be wary of armchair psych evals online.
I do agree that they should seek some professional assistance to determine if they have some medical or psych issues going on. But I don't think us online randos are the professionals to listen to.
I do agree that they should seek some professional assistance to determine if they have some medical or psych issues going on. But I don't think us online randos are the professionals to listen to.
Anxiety and depression are often two sides of the same coin, in fact are often comorbid.
If you present with anxiety you will often be treated with the same SNRI or SSRI drugs that you would for depression. Your primary care physician would be wary of prescribing specific anti-anxiety drugs because they are dangerously addictive.
Exercise is good for anxiety. Seeing the talk therapist is good for anxiety. Both the PCP and the talk therapist will notice if he presents with anxiety.
If you present with anxiety you will often be treated with the same SNRI or SSRI drugs that you would for depression. Your primary care physician would be wary of prescribing specific anti-anxiety drugs because they are dangerously addictive.
Exercise is good for anxiety. Seeing the talk therapist is good for anxiety. Both the PCP and the talk therapist will notice if he presents with anxiety.
Yes, but specifically lashing out when interrupted is an anxiety response (ight or flight), not depressive. The whole post was talking about fear - that is anxiety.
But it doesn't matter - the bigger point is that we are not care providers for OP, and they should go find one, not listen to either of us.
But it doesn't matter - the bigger point is that we are not care providers for OP, and they should go find one, not listen to either of us.
>Yes, but specifically lashing out when interrupted is an anxiety response (fight or flight), not depressive.
I wouldn't be so sure. Depression can skew one's perception of reality pretty hard such that they're rather crass.
Moreover, impulsive behavior can stem from many things beyond simply anxiety, depression or a combination thereof.
>But it doesn't matter - the bigger point is that we are not care providers for OP, and they should go find one, not listen to either of us.
Well said.
I wouldn't be so sure. Depression can skew one's perception of reality pretty hard such that they're rather crass.
Moreover, impulsive behavior can stem from many things beyond simply anxiety, depression or a combination thereof.
>But it doesn't matter - the bigger point is that we are not care providers for OP, and they should go find one, not listen to either of us.
Well said.
>These are anxiety symptoms, not depression. Everyone should be wary of armchair psych evals online.
In my experience the two are deeply intertwined, so I tend to agree with the latter sentiment. :)
In my experience the two are deeply intertwined, so I tend to agree with the latter sentiment. :)
I started Brazilian Jiu Jitsu classes and it did wonders for me. 1. Great social atmosphere, I get out of the basement now. 2. Great for me physically and really helps mitigate the loss of flexibility and overall "rot" from sitting in front of a computer.
I rarely feel like going to the classes but I always feel much better when I get home.
I rarely feel like going to the classes but I always feel much better when I get home.
I would almost add "(4) go to church or some other social activity" but that triggers people.
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I do that too, I don't care who it triggers.
If you WANT to do better, but are unable to, that's not laziness. Laziness, at least as I see it, is more like "I could do more, but I don't want to, so I won't."
I also don't think framing any difficulty as "being lazy" or "spoiled" is helpful, especially if you're directing that at yourself. Even if it were true (which sounds unlikely to me!) there's no actionable step to fix being lazy, so it's worth ruling out the other potential causes before you write yourself off like that.
So the useful thing to do, and the one that is most kind to yourself, is assume you are not just lazy. You are having some kind of struggle, but let's take "lazy" off the table for now.
Others here have mentioned ADHD, anxiety, burnout, sleep apnea, or depression. These can definitely all lead to the kinds of symptoms you're experiencing, and it's worth talking to a doctor and a therapist to figure out what could be causing this.
I also don't think framing any difficulty as "being lazy" or "spoiled" is helpful, especially if you're directing that at yourself. Even if it were true (which sounds unlikely to me!) there's no actionable step to fix being lazy, so it's worth ruling out the other potential causes before you write yourself off like that.
So the useful thing to do, and the one that is most kind to yourself, is assume you are not just lazy. You are having some kind of struggle, but let's take "lazy" off the table for now.
Others here have mentioned ADHD, anxiety, burnout, sleep apnea, or depression. These can definitely all lead to the kinds of symptoms you're experiencing, and it's worth talking to a doctor and a therapist to figure out what could be causing this.
You're not lazy.
I've been in your situation (I'm 33, but working since I was 15, the last 3 years looked eerily similar to what you've described). I'm significantly better now.
Therapy, changing my lifestyle and focusing less on work helped. I wish I had done this years ago. I'm still struggling with this sometimes, but I also realised that I feel better than I could even think it was possible.
Another thing that really helped me was finding a job I didn't care much about, spending more time doing nothing.
If you're like me, you probably feel like you're already doing nothing, but at the same time feel compelled to fix that by trying to do more and blaming yourself for not caring/not being good enough/being on the verge of becoming unemployed/<insert your brain's favourite way of self-criticism here>.
Doing nothing is good. Then, with time, simple ideas might pop in to your head once in a while, but you won't feel pressured to implement them, you will just make something for fun. In my case it's building small toys (like https://sonnet.io/posts/reactive-hole/) or doodling, anything not too serious really.
You're not lazy. It's literally the opposite-your body is telling you how tired you are.
I'm not a therapist, but if you want to chat or just rant* I have coffee/office hours set up to meet people, exchange experiences, learn from them, or just talk about random stuff--it doesn't really matter.
https://sonnet.io/posts/hi
[*] Those 3-minute rant meetings usually end up being 2h long conversations, but they're really fun.
I've been in your situation (I'm 33, but working since I was 15, the last 3 years looked eerily similar to what you've described). I'm significantly better now.
Therapy, changing my lifestyle and focusing less on work helped. I wish I had done this years ago. I'm still struggling with this sometimes, but I also realised that I feel better than I could even think it was possible.
Another thing that really helped me was finding a job I didn't care much about, spending more time doing nothing.
If you're like me, you probably feel like you're already doing nothing, but at the same time feel compelled to fix that by trying to do more and blaming yourself for not caring/not being good enough/being on the verge of becoming unemployed/<insert your brain's favourite way of self-criticism here>.
Doing nothing is good. Then, with time, simple ideas might pop in to your head once in a while, but you won't feel pressured to implement them, you will just make something for fun. In my case it's building small toys (like https://sonnet.io/posts/reactive-hole/) or doodling, anything not too serious really.
You're not lazy. It's literally the opposite-your body is telling you how tired you are.
I'm not a therapist, but if you want to chat or just rant* I have coffee/office hours set up to meet people, exchange experiences, learn from them, or just talk about random stuff--it doesn't really matter.
https://sonnet.io/posts/hi
[*] Those 3-minute rant meetings usually end up being 2h long conversations, but they're really fun.
> Another thing that really helped me was finding a job I didn't care much about, spending more time doing nothing.
I am not sure if I will be able to not care about my job. After all, my family’s well being depends on my ability to hold a job. I wish I could stop caring or at least to not care as much.
I am not sure if I will be able to not care about my job. After all, my family’s well being depends on my ability to hold a job. I wish I could stop caring or at least to not care as much.
Eh, that was a very unfortunate way of phrasing it.
I used to work at startups and take my job very personally, this let to working crazy hours and not having boundaries between my personal and work life. I get the point about caring too much.
You mileage may vary. After burning through my savings, and feeling like I forgot how to code (it was so strange), I found a more stable, and somewhat less exciting job at a SaaS company, and scaled down the role to something more hands-on. This gave me the financial stability I was seeking but also allowed me to spend more time with the people I care about. I also tried to force myself to just do something less "productive" (e.g. play a video game, draw, go for a walk). I know that I was really lucky to be able to do that.
I hope you'll feel better soon.
I used to work at startups and take my job very personally, this let to working crazy hours and not having boundaries between my personal and work life. I get the point about caring too much.
You mileage may vary. After burning through my savings, and feeling like I forgot how to code (it was so strange), I found a more stable, and somewhat less exciting job at a SaaS company, and scaled down the role to something more hands-on. This gave me the financial stability I was seeking but also allowed me to spend more time with the people I care about. I also tried to force myself to just do something less "productive" (e.g. play a video game, draw, go for a walk). I know that I was really lucky to be able to do that.
I hope you'll feel better soon.
Thank you. I understand what you mean by “feeling like I forgot how to code”. I honestly think I would not be able to pass a technical interview at this point, and I’ve been coding since ‘96 (chronologically: Delphi, Java 2, .NET/C#). I fear even to try, lest I prove my self right. My energy levels are at 0.1%
I'm not sure if I can offer any solutions, but I can relate to this very well. A few scattered but thoughts, consider any (or none) that seem relevant to you:
- I recently had some long conversations with coworkers who experience similar problems with motivation. I was especially surprised to hear it from one person, who--from an outsider's point of view--maintains an insanely high level of work ethic. His approach seems to boil down to having a top-down self-identification with his role and a bottom-up maintenance of good habits. So from one side he identifies as a professional who meets deadlines and is committed to doing good work. From the other side he tries not to work on the same task for too long, recognizes when he's starting to feel burned out, communicates it honestly to his manager and coworkers, and takes breaks to work on other more rewarding tasks, or just breaks from work altogether. His attitude reminded me a lot of the ideas in the book Atomic Habits, which is worth reading if you haven't already.
- It's easy to underestimate how much a change in environment changes your perspective. When I'm in a depressed mood, everything looks the same and I can't imagine how things could be less "true" in the future. In a different mindset, the bad things are still true, but seem less relevant. All software jobs *are* roughly the same, but having different coworkers, solving different problems, even working in a different building can help trigger a change in perspective.
- Do you have a good sense of what it is that *would* motivate you? Or what you want? Is there a particular part of the process of architecting software that you find satisfying? Or maybe a product or company whose mission aligns with your values? Personally, I'm most often stuck in this part. If nothing motivates you, it's likely more than work burnout and you might want to take some time to focus on your mental health.
- If you know what you want but struggle to set goals and make steady progress towards achieving them, I think it comes down to discipline. I've found that for certain things, if I wait for motivation to strike I'll be waiting forever, and unhappy the entire time. Sometimes detaching a bit and forcing myself to do something triggers a little bit of dopamine that inspires more momentum.
- I recently had some long conversations with coworkers who experience similar problems with motivation. I was especially surprised to hear it from one person, who--from an outsider's point of view--maintains an insanely high level of work ethic. His approach seems to boil down to having a top-down self-identification with his role and a bottom-up maintenance of good habits. So from one side he identifies as a professional who meets deadlines and is committed to doing good work. From the other side he tries not to work on the same task for too long, recognizes when he's starting to feel burned out, communicates it honestly to his manager and coworkers, and takes breaks to work on other more rewarding tasks, or just breaks from work altogether. His attitude reminded me a lot of the ideas in the book Atomic Habits, which is worth reading if you haven't already.
- It's easy to underestimate how much a change in environment changes your perspective. When I'm in a depressed mood, everything looks the same and I can't imagine how things could be less "true" in the future. In a different mindset, the bad things are still true, but seem less relevant. All software jobs *are* roughly the same, but having different coworkers, solving different problems, even working in a different building can help trigger a change in perspective.
- Do you have a good sense of what it is that *would* motivate you? Or what you want? Is there a particular part of the process of architecting software that you find satisfying? Or maybe a product or company whose mission aligns with your values? Personally, I'm most often stuck in this part. If nothing motivates you, it's likely more than work burnout and you might want to take some time to focus on your mental health.
- If you know what you want but struggle to set goals and make steady progress towards achieving them, I think it comes down to discipline. I've found that for certain things, if I wait for motivation to strike I'll be waiting forever, and unhappy the entire time. Sometimes detaching a bit and forcing myself to do something triggers a little bit of dopamine that inspires more momentum.
> Is there a particular part of the process of architecting software that you find satisfying?
Not really. My role mainly consists of sitting in meetings, providing estimates for vague projects, and some high-level designs. I miss writing code, but I do not miss low salary and calls outside of work hours to fix stuff.
> If you know what you want but struggle to set goals and make steady progress towards achieving them, I think it comes down to discipline.
I will have to think about it. I know what I do not like (politics, the industry I’ve worked in all my life, vague tasks, context switching, people management). I know I like to code, but it can never be just that. I will have to think about it more.
Not really. My role mainly consists of sitting in meetings, providing estimates for vague projects, and some high-level designs. I miss writing code, but I do not miss low salary and calls outside of work hours to fix stuff.
> If you know what you want but struggle to set goals and make steady progress towards achieving them, I think it comes down to discipline.
I will have to think about it. I know what I do not like (politics, the industry I’ve worked in all my life, vague tasks, context switching, people management). I know I like to code, but it can never be just that. I will have to think about it more.
Check yourself against the Maslach Burnout Inventory: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslach_Burnout_Inventory
Usually we develop a habit of working harder when things aren't going well, but at times you have to scale this down.
Maybe take a vacation. Vacations don't mean flying off somewhere. What do you want to do? Sleep? Watch anime? Learn guitar? Do that for 3 days.
Usually we develop a habit of working harder when things aren't going well, but at times you have to scale this down.
Maybe take a vacation. Vacations don't mean flying off somewhere. What do you want to do? Sleep? Watch anime? Learn guitar? Do that for 3 days.
You have symptoms of burnout (speaking from personal experience). Usually taking an extended vacation tends to help people reflect and refocus on things that matter.
I took 3 weeks vacation already this year. Considering the deadlines on my current projects, I am afraid this is not an option.
Talk to a therapist and tell them about this fear.
Do you feel trapped by it not being an option?
I do not think so, because I do not feel it would change anything.
Sounds like either depression, ADHD, or both ( depression from ADHD ). Talk to your doctor.
Ask about sleep apnea, as well.
You're not lazy, you're burnt out. I experienced a very similar thing. I quit, but I was in a position to do that.
New job would probably fix some things, for a while. A change of scenery can do a lot. Working on code you haven't been staring at every day, solving different types of problems, working on a legacy codebase, etc.
I say just smoke some pot and chill out. Enjoy your family. Explore other perspectives. The job really isn't that important. In fact, maybe that's why you feel how you do.
Best wishes.
New job would probably fix some things, for a while. A change of scenery can do a lot. Working on code you haven't been staring at every day, solving different types of problems, working on a legacy codebase, etc.
I say just smoke some pot and chill out. Enjoy your family. Explore other perspectives. The job really isn't that important. In fact, maybe that's why you feel how you do.
Best wishes.
> Am I just spoiled and lazy?
How do you define lazy? I like to re-frame that term somewhat positively, in that you could do the bare minimum to get by, and being creative in avoiding conflict or drama. You could also re-frame it as avoiding stress, getting adequate delicious sleep, and being well fed on a low-budget. There is a saying I often refer to:
'Avoiding work is oftentimes the most hardest of all work. Looking busy is a whole art-form in itself'.
How do you define lazy? I like to re-frame that term somewhat positively, in that you could do the bare minimum to get by, and being creative in avoiding conflict or drama. You could also re-frame it as avoiding stress, getting adequate delicious sleep, and being well fed on a low-budget. There is a saying I often refer to:
'Avoiding work is oftentimes the most hardest of all work. Looking busy is a whole art-form in itself'.
Same here. I've switched teams in the past. It helps, but only for a little while, and only if you believe the new position will be better.
Please see a health professional, try to exercise and eat healthy, and take all advices here cautiously as we are not doctors lol.