The Dreamcast Legacy(hackaday.com)
hackaday.com
The Dreamcast Legacy
https://hackaday.com/2021/12/22/the-dreamcast-legacy/
108 comments
They confused it with Sega Saturn, that's the one that was pushed under the bus by Nintendo 64 in 1996. Nintendo however was late to the game, the PS1 was already entrenched.
If I remember right, the Saturn shipped shortly before the PlayStation, but it was more expensive ($400USD vs $300USD) and shipped in a manner that annoyed most retailers (it was initially exclusive to KB Toys, I believe). The article also didn't go into the add-ons released for the Genesis/Master System (the Sega32X and SegaCD among them), and how Sega's attempts at keeping the G/MS alive instead wore out many console owners.
They launched much earlier than expected, before really any meaningful library of games were available. Third party developers were taken completely by surprise by the early launch.
It didn’t help that the Saturn didn’t ship with an SDK and was painful to develop 3D titles on due to being a sprite based machine (3D was effectively transforming sprites. Which caused bugs like breaking alpha blending).
The PlayStation wasn’t exactly easy by modern standards either but it was compared to that generation of consoles. For starters it had an SDK. Then there was the lack of storage constraints (unlike with the N64 cartridge). And while it didn’t have a Z index, at least it’s polygons weren’t just hack around 2D sprites.
That all said, I do still love my Saturn and N64 more than my PlayStation. This is Tony a rational preference but more just what I enjoy more as a retro gamer. In some ways their faults enhance the console.
The PlayStation wasn’t exactly easy by modern standards either but it was compared to that generation of consoles. For starters it had an SDK. Then there was the lack of storage constraints (unlike with the N64 cartridge). And while it didn’t have a Z index, at least it’s polygons weren’t just hack around 2D sprites.
That all said, I do still love my Saturn and N64 more than my PlayStation. This is Tony a rational preference but more just what I enjoy more as a retro gamer. In some ways their faults enhance the console.
I think I've seen videos saying they somehow overengineered the hardware too, and without libs (as you mention) people struggled to make use of the many processors and couldn't reach goals.
It wasn’t so much over engineered but more old before it’s time. Sega bet on 2D and then retrofitted their console to be 3D after rumours emerged that the PlayStation and N64 were 3D-focused systems.
I wish they would have doubled down on the 2d games.
It was a dead market. Everyone wanted 3D because that’s what they saw at the arcades so that’s where Sega’s developers were already skilled at. Plus that’s what was already appearing on PCs.
I'm curious if that was the whole story. Arcades were clearly a major factor in steering customer preferences, but nowhere near a complete lock on it.
Home consoles and computers had already established a huge range of gaming experiences that are not viable in the arcades. (RPGs, strategy games, more sophisticated sports games-- anything where the mean game time is more than a couple minutes)
I wonder if Sega could have leaned into the strengths of 2D hardware by capturing lucrative, well-known franchises rather than rushing to make something 3D. In retrospect, a lot of the early 3D games were sort of forgettable, and aged poorly?
If they could have said "we wooed Square, and the next two Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy games exclusive", the Saturn would have sold several million units regardless of hardware.
Home consoles and computers had already established a huge range of gaming experiences that are not viable in the arcades. (RPGs, strategy games, more sophisticated sports games-- anything where the mean game time is more than a couple minutes)
I wonder if Sega could have leaned into the strengths of 2D hardware by capturing lucrative, well-known franchises rather than rushing to make something 3D. In retrospect, a lot of the early 3D games were sort of forgettable, and aged poorly?
If they could have said "we wooed Square, and the next two Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy games exclusive", the Saturn would have sold several million units regardless of hardware.
Most probably. Even with the best 2D games, the playstation would have wiped the competition even faster if left alone on the 3D market.
The 32x was released by Sega America and the Saturn by Sega Japan. The two groups couldn’t agree on much in that era.
It's easy to use 20/20 hindsight and say failures were a mistake, but at the time, Genesis was selling like bonkers in the USA and was a relative failure in Japan. Sega (both Japan + USA) had to balance the need to generate excitement for a new console in Japan while maintaining a happy Genesis install base in the USA. At the time, the best compromise seemed to be an early launch of Saturn in Japan while giving the USA market a stop-gap next generation experience to current Genesis owners.
The whole point of the 32x project was to help and excite the American market, and it was developed by Sega USA using Saturn components.
Yes, after the fact when it didn't work out, there was much finger pointing and blame games happening, but at the time, the strategy did not seem to ridiculous and there is a universe it could have worked. Sega invested heavily into the 32x to make it successful, including cannabalizing Saturn's only Sonic game to move it to the 32x (Chaotix).
The whole point of the 32x project was to help and excite the American market, and it was developed by Sega USA using Saturn components.
Yes, after the fact when it didn't work out, there was much finger pointing and blame games happening, but at the time, the strategy did not seem to ridiculous and there is a universe it could have worked. Sega invested heavily into the 32x to make it successful, including cannabalizing Saturn's only Sonic game to move it to the 32x (Chaotix).
I wasn’t finger pointing. I was just making the same point you did. :)
Knuckles Chaotix was originally penned to be Sonic 4 but I think it was always planned to be a Mega Drive release. There were a couple of failed attempts at bringing Sonic to the Saturn (the engine of one of them lives on in Saturns “Sonic Jam”) but in the end it was pushed to the Dreamcast as Sonic Adventure (and apparently influenced much of the hardware design of the DC too). There are some leaked demos of Sonic for the Saturn though.
Also I think it’s a stretch to say the Mega Drive was a failure in Japan (the US market was the only market that sold the Mega Drive as “Genesis” and that was due to someone else having the IP for the name “Mega Drive”). It was successful in Japan too. But America and Europe were undoubtedly massive markets too.
I do have both the 32x and Mega CD (as well as several versions of the Mega Drive / Genesis). The 32x wasn’t intended to be a taster for the Saturn (as you stated) but rather a device to prolong the life of the Genesis because of how successful it was. In reality it is hard to see how the 32x wasn’t undermining the Saturns market share (even Sega Japan knew this at the time and weren’t happy about it). But I honestly think the Saturn would have flopped in the west regardless because Sony outplayed Sega at every element of the PlayStation. Sony knew this too; one of the leads on the PlayStation project would often have lunch with the leads for the Saturn and Sony would taunt Sega saying how it’s only a matter of time (there’s extracts of their conversations online but it’s in Japanese).
That all said, it’s worth noting that the Saturn wasn’t a complete flop in Japan. It wasn’t massive but it did sell better than in the west and saw much more titles from more studios too.
The Master System did rather well in Europe. Better than in North America. But the real location the Master System excelled in was South America. Games were still being made relatively recently for that device. In fact there are a number of Sonics ported to the Master System exclusively for the South American audience (such as Sonic Spinball, which was previously a Mega Drive exclusive).
Knuckles Chaotix was originally penned to be Sonic 4 but I think it was always planned to be a Mega Drive release. There were a couple of failed attempts at bringing Sonic to the Saturn (the engine of one of them lives on in Saturns “Sonic Jam”) but in the end it was pushed to the Dreamcast as Sonic Adventure (and apparently influenced much of the hardware design of the DC too). There are some leaked demos of Sonic for the Saturn though.
Also I think it’s a stretch to say the Mega Drive was a failure in Japan (the US market was the only market that sold the Mega Drive as “Genesis” and that was due to someone else having the IP for the name “Mega Drive”). It was successful in Japan too. But America and Europe were undoubtedly massive markets too.
I do have both the 32x and Mega CD (as well as several versions of the Mega Drive / Genesis). The 32x wasn’t intended to be a taster for the Saturn (as you stated) but rather a device to prolong the life of the Genesis because of how successful it was. In reality it is hard to see how the 32x wasn’t undermining the Saturns market share (even Sega Japan knew this at the time and weren’t happy about it). But I honestly think the Saturn would have flopped in the west regardless because Sony outplayed Sega at every element of the PlayStation. Sony knew this too; one of the leads on the PlayStation project would often have lunch with the leads for the Saturn and Sony would taunt Sega saying how it’s only a matter of time (there’s extracts of their conversations online but it’s in Japanese).
That all said, it’s worth noting that the Saturn wasn’t a complete flop in Japan. It wasn’t massive but it did sell better than in the west and saw much more titles from more studios too.
The Master System did rather well in Europe. Better than in North America. But the real location the Master System excelled in was South America. Games were still being made relatively recently for that device. In fact there are a number of Sonics ported to the Master System exclusively for the South American audience (such as Sonic Spinball, which was previously a Mega Drive exclusive).
That's about how I remember the Saturn being; at first you couldn't find it anywhere, then it was hard to tell the difference than the Sega CD which I had just gotten, then it was expensive and lastly there wasn't much games for it. I think the only time I really saw it was years later as a display at Toys'r'us showing off "Nights into Dreams" and then it was just kinda forgotten about.
Meanwhile the Dreamcast I had one friend who had one, but I also remember how everyone had a PS2, I remember the backwards comparability and launch titles were what sealed it. I'm the type that would have picked it up a few years later but it kinda always felt like the best games never left Japan for it, and then it was just kinda gone before you knew it.
Meanwhile the Dreamcast I had one friend who had one, but I also remember how everyone had a PS2, I remember the backwards comparability and launch titles were what sealed it. I'm the type that would have picked it up a few years later but it kinda always felt like the best games never left Japan for it, and then it was just kinda gone before you knew it.
That might be the case outside Japan, but the Sega Saturn was still relatively successful inside it's home country. Sega Saturn outsold the N64 in Japan. Saturn and Playstation were competing head to head for a while, with the Saturn frequently outselling the Playstation in Japan. The nail in the coffin was Final Fantasy 7 where Playstation took off like a rocketship and never looked back.
I think OP’s sentiment was right. I vividly recall seeing at Christmas time at a Toys R Us dozens and dozens of Saturn boxes next to handful of Dreamcast boxes, next to 2 N64 boxes. And I remember talking to the cashier and them complaining that they couldn’t sell Saturn and Dreamcast. They expected Sega to go out of business soon. They also remarked that the Dreamcast was being artificially held back to make seem as big a seller as the N64.
According to my memory of the time, the Dreamcast launched a bit too early compared to the PS2. The Dreamcast was trying to sell games and systems right when the PS2 marketing engine went into full swing. The marketing hype for PS2 was huge, everyone I knew was talking about how many millions of pixels it would push, how the multi-core architecture would make everything else obsolete, and of course, how it was backwards compatible with existing libraries.
I knew one guy that had a Dreamcast, everyone else saved their pennies for a PS2 and made do with their existing PS1.
I knew one guy that had a Dreamcast, everyone else saved their pennies for a PS2 and made do with their existing PS1.
You touch on a really important point here that I feel is totally underreported: marketing. My friend group all had Saturns or wanted them. I remember it being a big topic for us how there were constantly PlayStation ads everywhere while they were pretty much absent for the Saturn, especially on TV where Saturn ads existed but were terrible and and they were almost never run (this was in Germany). Our own narrative always had been that it was lack of marketing and bad marketing that killed the Saturn.
I'd love to see some actual data on marketing spent in different regions for the consoles.
I'd love to see some actual data on marketing spent in different regions for the consoles.
There was a rumor that in the UK SEGA pretty much spent their entire Dreamcast marketing budget on the Arsenal sponsorship. Would like to know how close to the truth that was.
I believe the PS2 marketing hype was further bolstered by great initial sales in Japan, because it was a reasonably priced DVD movie player.
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/ps2-primarily-used-as-dvd-...
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/ps2-primarily-used-as-dvd-...
Oh I so remember that, and can even find mainstream media articles to back that up.
https://www.nytimes.com/2000/10/26/technology/playstation-2-...
Same thing with the PS3—it was a lot of bang-for-the-buck for Blu-rays when it debuted. (Not that Blu-ray took the world by storm like DVDs, but still.)
https://www.theverge.com/2019/12/4/20992215/playstation-3-ps...
https://www.nytimes.com/2000/10/26/technology/playstation-2-...
Same thing with the PS3—it was a lot of bang-for-the-buck for Blu-rays when it debuted. (Not that Blu-ray took the world by storm like DVDs, but still.)
https://www.theverge.com/2019/12/4/20992215/playstation-3-ps...
Yep, I was that kid who got a Dreamcast for Christmas (my parents' compromise since my brothers and I wanted different systems) and I remember the same about commercials for the PS2 having just started.
> Yep, I was that kid who got a Dreamcast for Christmas
There are dozens of us!
There are dozens of us!
128bit!
Article also seems confused that the NES competed against the Genesis - the Master System was Sega's 8-bit console; and no mention of the 32X or Sega/Mega CD either
iirc a big selling point of the PS2 was it could play DVDs, whereas the Dreamcast couldn't
iirc a big selling point of the PS2 was it could play DVDs, whereas the Dreamcast couldn't
The genesis was available in stores concurrently with the NES, and once it was released the master system didn't get much shelf space at stores anymore. The genesis has nearly around 2 years lead on the SNES if I remember correctly. The NES and Genesis definitely competed.
(source: I remember the store displays)
(source: I remember the store displays)
Yes, I remember this as well. Growing up, late 80's, we had a NES, then in 1989: a Sega Genesis, and also a Turbografx 16. Yes, we were spoiled kids...
We had to sell half our NES games and pool together Christmas money from 3 brothers to get an open box genesis from the BX. Ah, military brat life :)
The NES did compete against the Genesis. Different technology generations, but they overlapped in the market for more than half of the NES's active lifespan, from 1989 through 1994. There were plenty of comparisons between early Genesis games and later NES games.
The Mega Drive / Genesis was release to the NA market in 1989, a couple of years before the SNES. So for a time, it was competing with the NES.
But, overall agree that the article has some factual issues.
But, overall agree that the article has some factual issues.
It was absolutely the PS2 that tanked the Dreamcast. Perhaps the author meant Xbox.
Yeah, Sony's PS2 pre release marketing hype was out of control, and a lot of it was directed at how the Dreamcast wasn't going to be worth it. The CPU of the PS2 was called the "Emotion Engine" with Sony just straight up saying it had the power to emulate the human mind.
Although the PlayStation 2 had the brute force, from this programmer's perspective the Dreamcast had a certain finesse, largely due to the PowerVR GPU. SEGA's teams were also on a strong creative streak at the time too. Such a shame it didn't pan out.
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I think they probably meant to write GameCube there.
This still doesn't make any sense, as Sega discontinued the Dreamcast 6 months before the GameCube even released.
That's as far as I read before deciding the author had no idea what they were talking about and closed the window.
This; I went from being astonished by Zelda: Ocarina of Time on the N64 to being stunned by Shenmue only a two years later on my Dreamcast. I bought both of them on release.
The Dreamcast was a great machine, I have fond memories of many hours playing Rez, Phantasy Star Online, Sonic Adventure, Shenmue, Skies of Arcadia and Space Channel 5..
The Dreamcast was a great machine, I have fond memories of many hours playing Rez, Phantasy Star Online, Sonic Adventure, Shenmue, Skies of Arcadia and Space Channel 5..
The Sega Dreamcast release date was 9/9/99
What I found most fascinating about the Dreamcast was the extensible utility of the VMU cartridge slotted beneath the controller in that it not only served as storage for saved game data but as a heads-down display for ongoing gameplay. It also had the capability of being a standalone unit for mini games with it's replaceable coin battery.
What's even more interesting is the modding community attempts in repurposing them and keeping the Dream alive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNoBQ5nTeuk
What's even more interesting is the modding community attempts in repurposing them and keeping the Dream alive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNoBQ5nTeuk
You can also connect two VMUs together - without the host system - to play games against another person or transfer saves.
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These retrospectives on the Dreamcast rarely seem to bring up the fact you could play burned CDs on the system or the shared architecture with the Atomiswave arcade systems the wildly popular (to this day) NAOMI arcade system. Or the Microsoft collaboration. I also feel like more could be explored around SegaNet and its relationship to ALL.net whose legacy is now felt today every time someone sits down at an arcade to play Guilty Gear Strive.
Especially of interest on a site like hackaday, they don't mention the homebrew scene: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dreamcast_homebrew_gam...
Or the ports of Atomiswave games to DC: https://www.retrorgb.com/dreamcast-atomiswave-ports.html
Especially of interest on a site like hackaday, they don't mention the homebrew scene: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dreamcast_homebrew_gam...
Or the ports of Atomiswave games to DC: https://www.retrorgb.com/dreamcast-atomiswave-ports.html
I was unaware one could do this, a quick Google suggests CD-R booting only possible out of the box on early Dreamcast models as a fix was introduced?
A dirty but effective copy protection would have presumably been to just make use of the full 1GB of storage the retail Dreamcast GD-ROM discs had, making them to large to copy to a generic CD-R.
A dirty but effective copy protection would have presumably been to just make use of the full 1GB of storage the retail Dreamcast GD-ROM discs had, making them to large to copy to a generic CD-R.
> I was unaware one could do this, a quick Google suggests CD-R booting only possible out of the box on early Dreamcast models as a fix was introduced?
It was the vast majority of them.
> A dirty but effective copy protection would have presumably been to just make use of the full 1GB of storage the retail Dreamcast GD-ROM discs had, making them to large to copy to a generic CD-R.
They did that, so then the release scene would re-encode whatever videos inevitably were taking up space, and bring it back down under 700mb.
It was the vast majority of them.
> A dirty but effective copy protection would have presumably been to just make use of the full 1GB of storage the retail Dreamcast GD-ROM discs had, making them to large to copy to a generic CD-R.
They did that, so then the release scene would re-encode whatever videos inevitably were taking up space, and bring it back down under 700mb.
One game I haven't seen mentioned here was Ikaruga. It was a top down shooter from Japan. Like many shooters, you fought your way through hordes of enemies and boss battles. You of course could upgrade your arsenal along the way by collecting powerups. One innovative gameplay mechanic was the firing mode: you would fire either white or black bullets. When you were firing white bullets, white enemy bullets and projectiles could not harm you. The reverse was also true.
Really fun game!
Really fun game!
Ikaruga was great, however it was effectively Treasure's sequel to its imo greatest game, Radiant Silvergun for the Sega Saturn, which sadly never made it out of Japan. Best game of the 32bit generation, maybe best bullet hell ever.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wue0F5YyeEQ
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wue0F5YyeEQ
Ikaruga belongs in the hall of fame. Not only mechanics are well researched, the execution (the engine) was breathtaking at the time.
When I visited Japan in 2019, I visited all arcades in Akihabara until I found ONE cabinet running it. It was magical.
When I visited Japan in 2019, I visited all arcades in Akihabara until I found ONE cabinet running it. It was magical.
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The legacy of the Dreamcast was the Xbox, specifically online multiplayer (and massive controllers!).
Peter Moore (who worked on both consoles) has talked about this several times over the years, e.g. this recent example [0]
[0] from 7:40 https://youtu.be/tadtqchbbh0&t=460
Peter Moore (who worked on both consoles) has talked about this several times over the years, e.g. this recent example [0]
[0] from 7:40 https://youtu.be/tadtqchbbh0&t=460
Thanks for the link. Microsoft really built XBox out of everything they learned from working with Sega on Dreamcast. Without Dreamcast there would be no XBox.
> "Microsoft really built XBox out of everything they learned from working with Sega on Dreamcast."
People say this but I don't think it's really true or, if it is, it certainly wasn't apparent from the worm's eye view. As the Dreamcast was dying off, there were actually two rival console proposals within MS; one was from the Windows division (whatever it was called then) that became the Xbox and the other came from the Dreamcast team and was IIRC MIPS-based and, of course, ran Windows CE. (And we all know which one won.) Nor did it seem that the Xbox project had any particular interest in taking on ex-Dreamcast staff; of all the IC developers on the project, only one person successfully moved from the Dreamcast team to the Xbox team to the best of my recollection. (Remember that this era was the old Gates-led, cutthroat Microsoft where the internal competitiveness was just as high as external competitiveness. The Windows division and its leadership anecdotally was not happy about the existence of Windows CE.)
It remains a mystery to me to this day what expertise was supposedly transferred from the Dreamcast project to the Xbox project. Personally, I suspect it's a myth and the anecdotes by former executives are papering a happy face over a complicated history but, meh, what do I know?
People say this but I don't think it's really true or, if it is, it certainly wasn't apparent from the worm's eye view. As the Dreamcast was dying off, there were actually two rival console proposals within MS; one was from the Windows division (whatever it was called then) that became the Xbox and the other came from the Dreamcast team and was IIRC MIPS-based and, of course, ran Windows CE. (And we all know which one won.) Nor did it seem that the Xbox project had any particular interest in taking on ex-Dreamcast staff; of all the IC developers on the project, only one person successfully moved from the Dreamcast team to the Xbox team to the best of my recollection. (Remember that this era was the old Gates-led, cutthroat Microsoft where the internal competitiveness was just as high as external competitiveness. The Windows division and its leadership anecdotally was not happy about the existence of Windows CE.)
It remains a mystery to me to this day what expertise was supposedly transferred from the Dreamcast project to the Xbox project. Personally, I suspect it's a myth and the anecdotes by former executives are papering a happy face over a complicated history but, meh, what do I know?
There was a third team from WebTV, that was based around the team that designed the 3DO M2.
That team lost the original Xbox internal design contest, but went on to design the 360 and later Xbox consoles.
The Dreamcast WinCE project did contribute several engineers to the Xbox org. It mostly taught MS how the console game business worked, showed them where WinCE/Direct X needed to be improved to support consoles, and gave them a list of things not to do.
Dreamcast’s controller and accessories were also quite influential on the original Xbox controller.
That team lost the original Xbox internal design contest, but went on to design the 360 and later Xbox consoles.
The Dreamcast WinCE project did contribute several engineers to the Xbox org. It mostly taught MS how the console game business worked, showed them where WinCE/Direct X needed to be improved to support consoles, and gave them a list of things not to do.
Dreamcast’s controller and accessories were also quite influential on the original Xbox controller.
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I remember going into someone’s office at microsoft after I first joined (back when everyone there had an office- it’s all open office now) and seeing a Dreamcast on someone’s shelf and being really confused. He explained he did most of the DirectX port for it and told me some of the details about working in it. It was a fascinating look into what might have been.
Microsoft went open plan?! I've not been on the campus in years. I always loved the little offices with everyone's past projects on the shelves.
Next you'll be telling me they got rid of all those free snacks and drinks.
Next you'll be telling me they got rid of all those free snacks and drinks.
I think MS went open plan starting in '07 with the "The Commons" campus. Some parts like Bungie were open plan much earlier. (The Bungie team demanded it, they felt it improved collaboration.)
But before that, regular MS engineers were often "temporarily" doubled up or tripled up in their offices, so going open plan wasn't as much of a difference as it might have been.
In the old days people's computers and monitors were physically much larger, you needed multiple computers to multi-task, and you needed lots of paper documentation. One reason we're open-plan now is that people can be very productive with a chair, laptop, and 24" monitor.
But before that, regular MS engineers were often "temporarily" doubled up or tripled up in their offices, so going open plan wasn't as much of a difference as it might have been.
In the old days people's computers and monitors were physically much larger, you needed multiple computers to multi-task, and you needed lots of paper documentation. One reason we're open-plan now is that people can be very productive with a chair, laptop, and 24" monitor.
Funny that, just like how Nintendo created the PlayStation through their dealings with Sony.
Microsoft's involvement in the Dreamcast was only in the Windows CE library for game development and nothing else
I played my Dreamcast a ton. When I'd get stuck while writing my dissertation (a regular event) I'd think things through while playing a game of hockey. It provided just the right amount of distraction.
I never understood the hype around the PS 2. It was so bad that when I went to the store to buy NHL 2K2, the employee said they no longer made Dreamcast games. She asked the other employee, who said the same thing. I told them the game was being advertised. They called company headquarters and were informed that it was coming out in a few days. They said I was the first customer to ask about the Dreamcast in months.
I never understood the hype around the PS 2. It was so bad that when I went to the store to buy NHL 2K2, the employee said they no longer made Dreamcast games. She asked the other employee, who said the same thing. I told them the game was being advertised. They called company headquarters and were informed that it was coming out in a few days. They said I was the first customer to ask about the Dreamcast in months.
I still play my Dreamcast a ton.
There's, to this date, new (indie) games being released, new/old builds of long-lost games do surface [0]...
The Dreamcast is a gift that keeps on giving...
[0] https://en.sega-dreamcast-info-games-preservation.com/
There's, to this date, new (indie) games being released, new/old builds of long-lost games do surface [0]...
The Dreamcast is a gift that keeps on giving...
[0] https://en.sega-dreamcast-info-games-preservation.com/
I had a Dreamcast and loved it, but the PS2 was an amazing system. The main draw was the massive game library, great online game play, and it doubled as a DVD player. Not sure what else you’d really want?
Great online plays was not a competing factor with the Dreamcast at that time.
Even after a mature library with online play long after the Dreamcast's death the PS2 online scene paled compared to the Xbox.
The timelines and competing consoles presented in the article are all out of order.
I get the overall point they were trying to make, but that was a painful read.
Blundered into a BestBuy early one Sunday, and the Dreamcasts were in a pile by the door at $50 with bags of games included. I then had one, running Crazy Taxi, for years and years.
Similar here, I picked up mine at a drugstore for $50 along with a pile of discounted games from the rack. I never thought I'd own the thing for 20 years and watch my oldest beat Sonic Adventure at age 6. Watching those credits roll he gave me the most badass look, lol. They still ask to play it from time to time.
Sonic Adventure holds up surprisingly well in spite of, or perhaps because of, it's surreal voice acting and general jank. Controversial opinion: it's better than Sonic Adventure 2[0], and Big the Cat's story was a nice change of pace.
[0] Even more controversial opinion: Sonic '06 is also better than Sonic Adventure 2.
[0] Even more controversial opinion: Sonic '06 is also better than Sonic Adventure 2.
> [0] Even more controversial opinion: Sonic '06 is also better than Sonic Adventure 2.
Having never played either but having watched gameplay of both, I'm very interested in your thoughts on that.
I also agree that Sonic Adventure 1 holds up surprisingly well despite the jank. A lot of Dreamcast era games have a certain aesthetic to them that feels distinctly different from other games. Sega really had some wild ideas and while they didn't always hit they were still exciting because of how fresh and unique they felt. The lack of polish adds to that aesthetic; the games weren't following a cookie cutter formula like lots of modern open world games, they were spending their time really experimenting because designing for 3D and internet connectivity was still so new.
Having never played either but having watched gameplay of both, I'm very interested in your thoughts on that.
I also agree that Sonic Adventure 1 holds up surprisingly well despite the jank. A lot of Dreamcast era games have a certain aesthetic to them that feels distinctly different from other games. Sega really had some wild ideas and while they didn't always hit they were still exciting because of how fresh and unique they felt. The lack of polish adds to that aesthetic; the games weren't following a cookie cutter formula like lots of modern open world games, they were spending their time really experimenting because designing for 3D and internet connectivity was still so new.
It's pretty subjective, honestly. For context, I played Sonic Adventure when it first came out. I played Sonic Adventure 2 (DC version) less than a year ago because it had a reputation for being a fan favorite. I hated it. I played Sonic 06 recently it had a reputation for being terrible and I found I actually kinda liked it because it made me laugh.
'06s reputation for being terrible is objectively overblown. It is definitely rushed, has long loading times, and is jank as hell, but it is otherwise a pretty mediocre game. I've definitely played a lot worse and I think the general "someone's free Unity game" feel helps it to not be taken too seriously. It is also occasionally completely hilarious. For instance, during the Shadow story fight with Silver, I got trapped in a notorious "It's no use" loop getting shot straight upwards. This was a little frustrating, but then Shadow's corpse fell into the ground head first and got stuck in it like a lawn dart and I laughed my ass off.
By contrast I think a lot of what put me off of SA2 was how seriously it seemed to take itself. It's a lot more polished than '06, but still has enough jank to cause frustration and is otherwise just as mediocre in the gameplay department. A lot of my gripes about SA2's gameplay are actually shared by 06, but I guess I just kind of expect that from a buggy unfinished mess so it is more easily forgiven.
'06s reputation for being terrible is objectively overblown. It is definitely rushed, has long loading times, and is jank as hell, but it is otherwise a pretty mediocre game. I've definitely played a lot worse and I think the general "someone's free Unity game" feel helps it to not be taken too seriously. It is also occasionally completely hilarious. For instance, during the Shadow story fight with Silver, I got trapped in a notorious "It's no use" loop getting shot straight upwards. This was a little frustrating, but then Shadow's corpse fell into the ground head first and got stuck in it like a lawn dart and I laughed my ass off.
By contrast I think a lot of what put me off of SA2 was how seriously it seemed to take itself. It's a lot more polished than '06, but still has enough jank to cause frustration and is otherwise just as mediocre in the gameplay department. A lot of my gripes about SA2's gameplay are actually shared by 06, but I guess I just kind of expect that from a buggy unfinished mess so it is more easily forgiven.
The article was updated with years for each console to try and make the timeline clearer. I think the initial error stating the the Nintendo 64 was released after the Dreamcast was the biggest error.
There's a custom FPGA mod that allows you use to a usb drive to load games. I've been meaning to get around to that since eventually the GDROM drive fails. I just loved playing Dreamcast with friends.
* Dynamite Cop
* Unreal Tournament
* NBA2k2
* Army Men
* Dynamite Cop
* Unreal Tournament
* NBA2k2
* Army Men
There's been several of them over the years. The most popular one now is
TerraOnion's MODE: https://shop.terraonion.com/en/home/17-Terraonion_MODE_Dream...
No other console tanked the Dreamcast.
The Dreamcast was fatally wounded as a platform because their DRM was easily bypassed. You didn't even need a special hardware dongle or modification. You could instead straight up download copies of games that were modified to work on the system. No point in supporting a platform that was dominating arcades but whose sales were getting obliterated by piracy at home.
The Dreamcast was fatally wounded as a platform because their DRM was easily bypassed. You didn't even need a special hardware dongle or modification. You could instead straight up download copies of games that were modified to work on the system. No point in supporting a platform that was dominating arcades but whose sales were getting obliterated by piracy at home.
As the other reply says, this didn't really happen this way. The Dreamcast was already on its way out after the PS2's launch by the time piracy really started up. Piracy was a footnote, not a cause.
Internet access was one constraining factor. Not everyone in 1999/2000 had broadband to download entire CD images. And an even smaller portion ever knew where to find the piracy methods and content - most of it was on Usenet.
Internet access was one constraining factor. Not everyone in 1999/2000 had broadband to download entire CD images. And an even smaller portion ever knew where to find the piracy methods and content - most of it was on Usenet.
I remember that the Dreamcast was already dead by the time piracy started becoming rampant, at least in the USA where I lived
Lack of a DVD drive killed the Dreamcast. People saw much more value in a PS2.
I had a Dreamcast at launch and still love the games that came out on it. If it had a new revision with a DVD player in it announced at the same PS2 price point to compete with the PS2 and XBOX then Sega might still be in the console business.
I had a Dreamcast at launch and still love the games that came out on it. If it had a new revision with a DVD player in it announced at the same PS2 price point to compete with the PS2 and XBOX then Sega might still be in the console business.
It really can't be overstated how important the DVD drive was for the PS2's success. When the first Fast and the Furious movie came out it almost seemed realistic that a criminal gang would risk their lives while attempting to steal DVD players from a truck. That movie's premiere was 8 months after the PS2 was released in the US. A DVD player AND a next gen video game console for $299 was an incredible deal in 2000.
PS2 marketing killed the Dreamcast.
Yes, this is far more correct. PS2 marketing had people believing that the PS2 was going to be rendering Terminator 2 level graphics in realtime.
The Dreamcast is still special. It never made big waves in Australia, so I bought one secondhand in 2016. My childhood was spent playing the PS2. The Dreamcast library and the whole ‘attitude’ of the system is quirky and refreshing. Playing titles like Shenmue and Jet Set Radio is still so enjoyable. If they had a 3D GTA on the system I think it could have helped.
I remember you could copy the games because they had no drm on them. My buddy had a complete collection. What a masterpiece.
It's a bit more complex. Beyond using a bespoke ~1GB GD-ROM format that normal optical drives can't read, the discs did AFAIK have copy protection of the "wobbly track" variety. So even if you have a GD-Recordable drive and media, you couldn't just copy the games. (Although if you have a GD-R drive you almost certainly had the dev tools to run unprotected games anyway).
Unfortunately they wanted a way to add Dreamcast content to music CDs ("MIL-CD"), which led to a massive holes in the security that meant it would happily boot off CD-Rs. I guess they didn't want to tie record companies to Sega's own duplicators so the CDs don't have any direct copy protection. Instead CD programs are "encrypted" (unlike GD-ROM games) and the disc drive turned off after initial load. Naturally the encryption / scrambling was figured out, and people figured out how to turn the drive back on[1]. Thus fun with piracy and homebrew. Late in the production run they removed the MIL-CD stuff entirely, although the vast majority of systems out there would've been built by then.
(Sorry if I've got any details wrong).
[1] Plus a bonus that the boot sector could contain unchecked extra code that made "self booting" pirate games possible.
Unfortunately they wanted a way to add Dreamcast content to music CDs ("MIL-CD"), which led to a massive holes in the security that meant it would happily boot off CD-Rs. I guess they didn't want to tie record companies to Sega's own duplicators so the CDs don't have any direct copy protection. Instead CD programs are "encrypted" (unlike GD-ROM games) and the disc drive turned off after initial load. Naturally the encryption / scrambling was figured out, and people figured out how to turn the drive back on[1]. Thus fun with piracy and homebrew. Late in the production run they removed the MIL-CD stuff entirely, although the vast majority of systems out there would've been built by then.
(Sorry if I've got any details wrong).
[1] Plus a bonus that the boot sector could contain unchecked extra code that made "self booting" pirate games possible.
iirc, the "wobbly track" you mention was the copy protection on the Saturn: http://segabits.com/blog/2016/07/12/sega-saturn-copy-protect...
And they continued to use it in GD-ROM drives AFAIK.
So if you had an ISO of a dreamcast game, it is possible to burn it to a CD-R and play it on an unmodified console (when it was first cracked it had to be a boot disc with a swap). The exploit was some sort of a software hijacking of the console's ability to play MIL-CDs which were used for interactive music discs in Japan.
Copying itself from the source discs (GD-ROMs that had their grooves packed closer together than a traditional CD for extra capacity), from what I can remember reading, was primary done via a dreamcast console (perhaps initially it was done via a development kit) and a serial cable or ethernet adapter.
I think over the years more means of doing the GD-ROM copy became available, like firmware overwrites of certain PC drives.
Copying itself from the source discs (GD-ROMs that had their grooves packed closer together than a traditional CD for extra capacity), from what I can remember reading, was primary done via a dreamcast console (perhaps initially it was done via a development kit) and a serial cable or ethernet adapter.
I think over the years more means of doing the GD-ROM copy became available, like firmware overwrites of certain PC drives.
Games that were bigger than a CD's capacity had to have their textures downsampled and recompressed though. I only point this out as anyone interested in playing DC games they don't have a GD-ROM copy of has a much better option in the form of GDEmu or Terraonion MODE.
It was the videos that were reencoded. Textures didn't add up the same way.
I stand corrected.
I remember the old way of ripping original Xbox games was to use a modded Xbox that would serve the game disc over FTP. You'd connect to the Xbox and copy the disc contents off of it. You could then burn them to a blank DVD and your modded Xbox would happily play the xex executable. You could have quite the library of games by borrowing from friends or renting from Blockbuster. The next upgrade was to drop in a larger HDD so you could play games off the HDD instead. Games loaded so fast and could load even faster with a high speed ribbon cable.
Now you can pull almost every retail Xbox game off of internet archive and throw nearly all of them on to a massive multi TB HDD.
Now you can pull almost every retail Xbox game off of internet archive and throw nearly all of them on to a massive multi TB HDD.
Capcom had so many of my favorite games on the Dreamcast, the regular hits such as Marvel vs Capcom and Street Fighter, but Power Stone, Tech Romancer, Cannon Spike, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, Rival Schools, etc.
Brings back memories. Make a cup of tea. Hop on IRC to find the latest FTP. Download 20 some RAR files. Merge them. Burn an ISO. I must have gotten 80+ games this way. Sorry, Sega. Thanks, Windows CE!
Since it is fro hackaday, I was expecting at least a word on SuperH.
no mention of Samba de amigo
I even ordered the maracas kit from Japan, it worked so well.
It used Doppler effect to track distance from sensor to speaker (in your hand)
thus identified the height of the controller.
You could go as fast as you can without throwing it off, amazing achievement.
Really wished they'd re-release it on Nintendo switch, though I suspect the reason is hardware of joycon isn't able to keep up.
PS2 emulation is such a pain that I still can't make any emuls work on my Mac. Meanwhile Flycast is being ported to PS Vita with decent FPS.
With the PS2 Sony were already some way down the road that led to the PS3 and Cell and all that complexity, what with the various vector units in the Emotion Engine CPU and slightly odd graphics pipeline. So its not surprising its somewhat hard to emulate, although as other post points out it should work nowadays.
The Dreamcast is somewhat simpler, a fairly straightforward CPU and an "off the shelf"[1] PowerVR chip that isn't as weird (though the tile based rendering stuff is I guess?). Cue emulator authors pointing out all the weird annoying bits of the Dreamcast I've missed.
[1] In itself an interesting choice for the late '90s, when consoles still nearly always had bespoke graphics, instead of just variants of PC GPUs.
The Dreamcast is somewhat simpler, a fairly straightforward CPU and an "off the shelf"[1] PowerVR chip that isn't as weird (though the tile based rendering stuff is I guess?). Cue emulator authors pointing out all the weird annoying bits of the Dreamcast I've missed.
[1] In itself an interesting choice for the late '90s, when consoles still nearly always had bespoke graphics, instead of just variants of PC GPUs.
Is there any reason you can't just use PCSX2?
It works on my 2012 MacBook Pro...it should work on any fairly recent hardware with zero fuss...
https://forums.pcsx2.net/Thread-Native-Mac-Testing-Build
It works on my 2012 MacBook Pro...it should work on any fairly recent hardware with zero fuss...
https://forums.pcsx2.net/Thread-Native-Mac-Testing-Build
It works! But... hella slow with games like Gran Turismo 3. Vaguely on par with PCSX2 in Windows in VMWare Fusion, if not slower. (Fusion can run DX10 stuff on Mac, while Wine and VirtualBox can't.)
Previously I assumed that PCSX2 development for Mac stopped around 2012 with 0.9.7. Can't remember what was my result with it, but possibly the same.
I guess the problem might be with the embedded GPU of the Macbook. Which is still telling, if a weak modern GPU can't handle a system from 2000 while being able to run games from mid-to-late 2010s.
Previously I assumed that PCSX2 development for Mac stopped around 2012 with 0.9.7. Can't remember what was my result with it, but possibly the same.
I guess the problem might be with the embedded GPU of the Macbook. Which is still telling, if a weak modern GPU can't handle a system from 2000 while being able to run games from mid-to-late 2010s.
I've had good luck with this fork of PCSX2. I've been able to play Kingdom Hearts with my Nintendo Pro Controller on my M1 Mac and it runs really well.
https://github.com/tellowkrinkle/pcsx2
https://github.com/tellowkrinkle/pcsx2
I never liked the Dreamcast for no other reason than petty bitterness from having purchased a Saturn.
Release dates: