Orcas found to kill blue whales(nationalgeographic.com)
nationalgeographic.com
Orcas found to kill blue whales
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/orcas-can-kill-blue-whales-the-biggest-animal-on-earth
106 comments
Interestingly, a few internet sources say English name "killer whale" is miss-translation of Spanish "asesina de ballenas," which literally means "whale killer":
https://www.surfertoday.com/environment/what-is-a-killer-wha...
https://www.reddit.com/r/Awwducational/comments/1tryxl/the_n...
Take that with a grain of salt, as I couldn't find a reliable source.
https://www.surfertoday.com/environment/what-is-a-killer-wha...
https://www.reddit.com/r/Awwducational/comments/1tryxl/the_n...
Take that with a grain of salt, as I couldn't find a reliable source.
Humorously, the source in one of the Reddit comments is quoting a source linked from the Spanish language wiki page for Orcas which cites, as justification, a 2007 version of the English language wikipedia page for Orcas.
https://web.archive.org/web/20070630040841/http://animals.ab...
https://web.archive.org/web/20070630040841/http://animals.ab...
Ah the circle of life, "beautiful"
Causal loop in the wild?
That's funny, in modern spanish I've only ever heard "ballena asesina" (instead of "asesina de ballena") which translates to killer whale. Maybe it went full circle and got translated back from english?
Or maybe the origin story is just bogus
Or maybe the origin story is just bogus
It sort of makes sense. As far as I know there are almost no records of orcas going after people.
But they are increasingly attacking boats:
https://www.yachtingworld.com/cruising/orca-attacks-rudder-l...
https://www.yachtingworld.com/cruising/orca-attacks-rudder-l...
I was quite surprised when I saw the first reports of that and find them equally faszinating and terrifying. I am wondering, what started this behavior by the Orcas and whether this is in any way connected to them increasingly killing other whales.
It is probably way to naive to assume that they mistake boats for prey as they are highly intelligent animals. They seem to know what fishing boats are and are known to steal fishes from long lines.
These attacks seem to primarily target the rudders. Of course this is the one part of the boat they can easily damage, most hulls should be able to withstand the attacks better. Also, attacking the fins is probably very universal, when you are attacking another aquatic animal. I wonder, how much the Orcas can understand the extend to which boats depend on the rudders though.
It is probably way to naive to assume that they mistake boats for prey as they are highly intelligent animals. They seem to know what fishing boats are and are known to steal fishes from long lines.
These attacks seem to primarily target the rudders. Of course this is the one part of the boat they can easily damage, most hulls should be able to withstand the attacks better. Also, attacking the fins is probably very universal, when you are attacking another aquatic animal. I wonder, how much the Orcas can understand the extend to which boats depend on the rudders though.
There's a number of theories. The drop in food along the Portugese/Spanish Atlantic cost. Some of the attacking Orcas also have visible scars caused by boats and as these attacks increased after the Covid lockdowns it could have realized that the underwater noise before was caused by ships and are angry when shipping started again:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/sep/13/the-tale...
"What explains the new behaviour? Was there reduced noise during the Covid lockdown? Selling says yes. “No big game fishing, no whale watching or sailing boats, no fast ferries, fewer merchant ships.” He’s intrigued by the idea that the orca had two months with reduced noise – “Something most of them probably never experienced before” – and considers the possibility they felt angry as the noise restarted"
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/sep/13/the-tale...
"What explains the new behaviour? Was there reduced noise during the Covid lockdown? Selling says yes. “No big game fishing, no whale watching or sailing boats, no fast ferries, fewer merchant ships.” He’s intrigued by the idea that the orca had two months with reduced noise – “Something most of them probably never experienced before” – and considers the possibility they felt angry as the noise restarted"
If it is the noise, where all attacked ships running under engine or where some of them sailing? The sailing boats wouldn't make any especial noise. Unless the Orcas developed a sudden hate for all boats.
[deleted]
There are also interesting reports from the whaling era where killer whales would heard Target species to the whaling ships in reward for voice pieces of meat
Assassin of Whales
> Twelve orcas swimming down their quarry until it grows tired
Looks like humans aren't the only predators who use persistence hunting.
Looks like humans aren't the only predators who use persistence hunting.
It'd be interesting to know if besides mental capacity, is there a physiological advantage required in the water for this to be a successful strategy, as there seems to be on land.
That is, comparable to humans (and to a lessor extent canines') ability to regulate body temperature for long durations in the heat.
That is, comparable to humans (and to a lessor extent canines') ability to regulate body temperature for long durations in the heat.
Killer whales hunting baleen whales in concert with humans of the coast of Australia is well documented and probably predates European settlement - search 'the law of the tongue' for more details.
My favorite Orca fact is that they eat the livers of Great White Sharks. There may be no more metal animal on the planet.
They will come out of the water to grab prey on shore, like elephant seals and sea lions.
They also coordinate in groups to make waves that wash seals and penguins off ice floes.
And they are said to drown whale calves just to eat their tongue.
They also coordinate in groups to make waves that wash seals and penguins off ice floes.
And they are said to drown whale calves just to eat their tongue.
Why does eating the liver make them particularly metal? I’ve always assumed predators in the wild eat most/all parts of their prey. (Vegetarian here if that explains my ignorance :))
No, no, the point is they only eat the liver. Which is interesting precisely because many people would assume what you did.
Because shark meat is saturated with urea, probably that's why.
Not until you kill it and fluids start moving around. (There are a few things you can do to keep the meat from degrading, like immediately draining the blood and the bladder.)
The liver is the target because it's the most calorie dense meat in the shark, if not the entire ocean. At least out of what orcas eat. Plus it's probably delicious.
The liver is the target because it's the most calorie dense meat in the shark, if not the entire ocean. At least out of what orcas eat. Plus it's probably delicious.
It’s metal, because usually the predator’s livers can be really toxic. Humans only eat the liver of vegetarian animals, and eating the liver of a carnivore animal could result in death.
> “This is the biggest predation event on this planet: the biggest apex predator taking down the biggest prey,” says study co-author Robert Pitman, a marine ecologist at Oregon State University’s Marine Mammal Institute. “We don’t have dinosaurs anymore, so for me as a whale biologist and a zoologist it’s an amazing thing.”
He is actually understating this. Not only is the Blue Whale the largest animal living now, it is the largest animal that has ever lived.
It is roughly the size of a Boeing 737 (a 737-700 is longer(110 ft for a 737-700 vs 98 ft for a blue whale), but a blue whale weighs more (155,000lbs max ramp weight for a 737-700 versus 200,000lbs for a blue whale))
He is actually understating this. Not only is the Blue Whale the largest animal living now, it is the largest animal that has ever lived.
It is roughly the size of a Boeing 737 (a 737-700 is longer(110 ft for a 737-700 vs 98 ft for a blue whale), but a blue whale weighs more (155,000lbs max ramp weight for a 737-700 versus 200,000lbs for a blue whale))
What a terrible death that would be.
Killer whales also often target grey whale calves. they separate them from their mothers and drown them. Scientists suggest they do it for sport and entertainment, as they rarely consume the meat.
Trigger warning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsXBeoqVN0c
Trigger warning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsXBeoqVN0c
In return, Humpback Whales have been reported to attack Orcas in retaliation: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/humpback-...
As much as I love orcas, it is indeed quite brutal seeing those battles play out between orcas and large whales. Gives you chill bumps and reminds you how tough nature is.
However, I've never heard of orcas routinely killing for sport, especially large whales. Is there an article or study you know of? It is not an easy kill for them, and I was under the impression that they do it for certain delicacies. For example, they will kill great white sharks specifically to eat their livers, which is insanely high in calories, and then nothing else of the shark.
However, I've never heard of orcas routinely killing for sport, especially large whales. Is there an article or study you know of? It is not an easy kill for them, and I was under the impression that they do it for certain delicacies. For example, they will kill great white sharks specifically to eat their livers, which is insanely high in calories, and then nothing else of the shark.
I think they do typically consume the tongue of baby grey whales. I cant find an easy reference for the sport aspect, but many animals kill for entertainment/practice.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Vladimir-Melnikov-2/pub...
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Vladimir-Melnikov-2/pub...
Scuba diving around Monterey CA we sometimes observe sea lions killing mola molas (ocean sunfish) for sport. The sea lions bite the fins off but don't eat more than a couple bites, they just leave the crippled fish to sink to the bottom and slowly die. One time I saw about 10 half dead molas laying on the seafloor flopping around.
Yeah, nature is brutal. Like well fed house cats killing birds for pleasure
There's seals, which they seem to kill for a combination of sport and to give the young orcas practice killing.
It's pretty hard to watch orcas use their tail to playfully bat dying seals 50' up in the air and not think they're doing it for fun. Even if there's a learning component to the purpose.
It's pretty hard to watch orcas use their tail to playfully bat dying seals 50' up in the air and not think they're doing it for fun. Even if there's a learning component to the purpose.
They may be doing it to stun the animal.
Orcas will tail slap things to stun or kill them, and some fish-eating orcas do this after corralling a school of fish together into a tight ball or cylinder. Then they swim in fast and slap the edges with their tails, either stunning or killing several fish that they can then just pick out of the floating water.
However, the seal punting the commenter was referring to does indeed seem to be for sport, play, training, or all of the above. Here's a video: https://youtu.be/G7WGIH35JBE?t=21
For one, it shows the sheer power of an orca. According to the NOAA Fisheries, a harbor seal (what transient orcas typically hunt) weights 24 pounds at birth and then 180-285 pounds as an adult. So, if we assume that seal in the video is an adolescent or an adult, the orca is launching something probably weighing at least 100-200 pounds about 50-100ft into the air. I do find it disturbing, but I have seen some cases where the orcas had played with a seal and then let it live.
This discussion of power reminded me of orcas hunting dolphins. The following videos might be harsh if you really like dolphins, but it shows the insane power and speed of an orca. They can move so fast in the water, jump tens of feet out of the water while weighing several tons, and ram things with such force killing them. That's also why I balk at calling them the wolves of the sea. I do not know of a single other predator that has the intelligence plus the insane physicality that they do. I think one would be hard pressed to find a more apex predator.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTirD7pCBVE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JsBB0BGM4M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVbvhtNzFj0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQQMrHYlYvI
However, the seal punting the commenter was referring to does indeed seem to be for sport, play, training, or all of the above. Here's a video: https://youtu.be/G7WGIH35JBE?t=21
For one, it shows the sheer power of an orca. According to the NOAA Fisheries, a harbor seal (what transient orcas typically hunt) weights 24 pounds at birth and then 180-285 pounds as an adult. So, if we assume that seal in the video is an adolescent or an adult, the orca is launching something probably weighing at least 100-200 pounds about 50-100ft into the air. I do find it disturbing, but I have seen some cases where the orcas had played with a seal and then let it live.
This discussion of power reminded me of orcas hunting dolphins. The following videos might be harsh if you really like dolphins, but it shows the insane power and speed of an orca. They can move so fast in the water, jump tens of feet out of the water while weighing several tons, and ram things with such force killing them. That's also why I balk at calling them the wolves of the sea. I do not know of a single other predator that has the intelligence plus the insane physicality that they do. I think one would be hard pressed to find a more apex predator.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTirD7pCBVE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JsBB0BGM4M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVbvhtNzFj0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQQMrHYlYvI
They're not. It's very obvious when you see it.
And it's usually when they've already pushed the seal to exhaustion and are extending things so the kids can play.
And it's usually when they've already pushed the seal to exhaustion and are extending things so the kids can play.
In turn, seals can be pretty violent towards penguins
Just curious why you would love them -- they are probably one of the most evil animals on earth.
Evil is subjective thing. Especially in animals.
Do you love a human? Have you seen what humans can do to each other much less other species?
They play with their prey like cats do with mice. I remember seeing videos where they were throwing around half dead penguins for quite a while and then left the penguin without eating.
Orcas can work together and create waves to hunt seals on ice floes. It is fascinating, and I think proves that Orcas are extremely smart.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwbNRNCxhFg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwbNRNCxhFg
There are orcas in captivity in San Diego I think?
I watched a few videos. They are obviously fairly smart, their interaction with people and each other is thoughtful. At some moments, you really tend to think "there is an almost-human intelligence locked in a very nonhuman body, what could they achieve if they had versatile hands like we do"?
I watched a few videos. They are obviously fairly smart, their interaction with people and each other is thoughtful. At some moments, you really tend to think "there is an almost-human intelligence locked in a very nonhuman body, what could they achieve if they had versatile hands like we do"?
They also flip seals into the air to carefully avoid injury while hunting - see this article and video:
https://www.newsweek.com/scientists-explain-video-orca-punti...
Since I watched Free Willy and later seeing one at close range on the coast of Cuba (Cojimar) I've been so fascinated by orcas, I made them the logo and somewhat end goal of my startup [1].
[1] https://okeano.com
[1] https://okeano.com
They inspired the look/livery of my new startup too! https://np.com (scroll all the way down for the best look)
That's an incredible site and airplane design. Would be awesome if the last scene in the promo video shows the plane flying & gaining altitude just above orcas speeding and jumping over the water right before it says Fly freely. Prob demands CGI.
Great site and design!
I smiled at the startup idea. I once flew my not-yet-wife to NYC (from Australia) to propose, but went cheap on the tickets. Our route was something like Adelaide - Sydney, I think - Taipei - Anchorage at 3am - NYC. Probably a miracle she said yes.
I smiled at the startup idea. I once flew my not-yet-wife to NYC (from Australia) to propose, but went cheap on the tickets. Our route was something like Adelaide - Sydney, I think - Taipei - Anchorage at 3am - NYC. Probably a miracle she said yes.
Nice looking plane. Asia by way of Alaska is at the very least an interesting idea.
How do you pronounce that? Love the logo and LOVE the mission. I'll give y'all a whirl
Hey. Thanks man! It's just pronounced like its spelled. In IPA: okeˈanɔ.
Mar 2021: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxTsoD86Ego
I’m confused a bit
I’m confused a bit
It’s discussed in the article:
“ In all, scientists describe three blue whale killings, in March and April of 2019 and March of 2021, in a new study published this week in the journal Marine Mammal Science.”
“ In all, scientists describe three blue whale killings, in March and April of 2019 and March of 2021, in a new study published this week in the journal Marine Mammal Science.”
Orcas kill anything they can get their teeth on, except humans. There is honor among apex predators.
I think it's actually someone demeaning and condescending of humans to consistently describe orcas' hunting techniques as similar to wolves. For one, it's incorrect. Wolves do not show any of the coordination that orcas do. Wolves hunt in packs, but that doesn't mean that they cooperate and coordinate with each other. This video is a good example of the chaos of wolves hunting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wl8ZxAaB2E
Instead, orcas hunt much more similarly to humans. They speak to each other, coordinate special roles, teach while they're hunting, and they have highly coordinated and practiced attacks. The way they kill whales is usually quite brutal, because it normally requires tiring out the whales first and then start in with bites. Although orcas are ridiculously powerful (their jaw strength is basically immeasurable compared to land animals), they can still be seriously injured by large whales'. So, orcas essentially exhaust the whales and then ram and nick at them until dealing some final blows or drown the whale. During these hunts, the orcas will switch in and out so as to not tire themselves out. As an aside, there have been instances of people seeing humpbacks intervene orca attacks on both humpbacks and other whale species.
I would not be surprised in the least if orcas are as intelligent or more so than humans, if such a thing could be determined. Either way, they are seriously intelligent, and their physical capabilities are second to none. They are awe inspiring animals in every way. And yet, we keep them in prisons.
Instead, orcas hunt much more similarly to humans. They speak to each other, coordinate special roles, teach while they're hunting, and they have highly coordinated and practiced attacks. The way they kill whales is usually quite brutal, because it normally requires tiring out the whales first and then start in with bites. Although orcas are ridiculously powerful (their jaw strength is basically immeasurable compared to land animals), they can still be seriously injured by large whales'. So, orcas essentially exhaust the whales and then ram and nick at them until dealing some final blows or drown the whale. During these hunts, the orcas will switch in and out so as to not tire themselves out. As an aside, there have been instances of people seeing humpbacks intervene orca attacks on both humpbacks and other whale species.
I would not be surprised in the least if orcas are as intelligent or more so than humans, if such a thing could be determined. Either way, they are seriously intelligent, and their physical capabilities are second to none. They are awe inspiring animals in every way. And yet, we keep them in prisons.
Other than arguably the level of communication, every single thing you describe about orcas hunting applies to wolves hunting buffalo.
ETA: There's also the under appreciated communication aspect of canines (and orcas) ability to take and obey direction from others.
There's lots of research on how despite learning from mimicry, non-human primate intelligence might be relatively capped by this limitation.
ETA: There's also the under appreciated communication aspect of canines (and orcas) ability to take and obey direction from others.
There's lots of research on how despite learning from mimicry, non-human primate intelligence might be relatively capped by this limitation.
That is a big one, is it not? Do we call humans "wolves on two feet"?
Communication and cooperation are things orcas exhibit over and over. Also, wolves, as far as I know, are purely instinctual and do not communicate or pass down learned knowledge. Orcas do. There are several documented instances of one or a few individuals in an orca pod discovering some novel way to eat something or discovering a new animal altogether to eat that is then taught within the pod.
There's one specific hunting technique for mammal hunting orcas that has been observed that showcases this. When hunting mammals, who have excellent hearing and are intelligent themselves, orcas can sometimes reach a point where it's not working. So, the pod of orcas will resume chatting (vocalizing) and start to leave the area while they choose a single orca to stay silently behind. Once the other orcas leave, the mammals (usually seals) relax, giving the silent orca hiding a chance to capture. Once capture, the other orcas return to share the meal. Wolves don't do anything like that.
Communication and cooperation are things orcas exhibit over and over. Also, wolves, as far as I know, are purely instinctual and do not communicate or pass down learned knowledge. Orcas do. There are several documented instances of one or a few individuals in an orca pod discovering some novel way to eat something or discovering a new animal altogether to eat that is then taught within the pod.
There's one specific hunting technique for mammal hunting orcas that has been observed that showcases this. When hunting mammals, who have excellent hearing and are intelligent themselves, orcas can sometimes reach a point where it's not working. So, the pod of orcas will resume chatting (vocalizing) and start to leave the area while they choose a single orca to stay silently behind. Once the other orcas leave, the mammals (usually seals) relax, giving the silent orca hiding a chance to capture. Once capture, the other orcas return to share the meal. Wolves don't do anything like that.
There is a lot of learned behavior in wolf hunting. Juvenile wolves go on hunts without direct participation to observe many times before participating. There is even specialization where faster members of a pack take on different roles.
The real difference is large wolf pray doesn’t escape the way seals can onto land but are significantly more dangerous to the wolves. Such prey can both out run them in most cases or severely injury them in direct confrontations, so wolves need to use deep snow, river banks, or extreme exhaustion methods. It’s actually more complex hunting behavior than Orcas vs whales, though adapted to different environments.
In terms of communication Alphas don’t seem to micromanage hunts the way Orcas do, but they will call them off etc. Which might relate to land being a more variable environment, you don’t run into random ditches in the open ocean.
The real difference is large wolf pray doesn’t escape the way seals can onto land but are significantly more dangerous to the wolves. Such prey can both out run them in most cases or severely injury them in direct confrontations, so wolves need to use deep snow, river banks, or extreme exhaustion methods. It’s actually more complex hunting behavior than Orcas vs whales, though adapted to different environments.
In terms of communication Alphas don’t seem to micromanage hunts the way Orcas do, but they will call them off etc. Which might relate to land being a more variable environment, you don’t run into random ditches in the open ocean.
Wolves manage to cooperate fine, communicating with both howls and non-verbal cues.
What's more impressive (be it humans playing sports or pack predators hunting): a team calling an audible play while on the attack, or the team that is so well knit that it can accomplish the same without yelling it out loud?
>Wolves don't do anything like that.
Wolves will both silently stalk and drive/funnel prey to a waiting ambush. And they do vocally call for others to rejoin them when out of sight.
I'm not sure what better analog you might expect, given that wolves aren't pursuing above surface prey from underwater.
But would you discredit orcas for not climbing out of the water and chasing seals on the ice?
What's more impressive (be it humans playing sports or pack predators hunting): a team calling an audible play while on the attack, or the team that is so well knit that it can accomplish the same without yelling it out loud?
>Wolves don't do anything like that.
Wolves will both silently stalk and drive/funnel prey to a waiting ambush. And they do vocally call for others to rejoin them when out of sight.
I'm not sure what better analog you might expect, given that wolves aren't pursuing above surface prey from underwater.
But would you discredit orcas for not climbing out of the water and chasing seals on the ice?
With respect to the passing down of learned knowledge, I believe I read in the book 'Three Among the Wolves' that the author had observed a wolf pack teaching their young to be aware of and hide from small planes flying over (planes were dangerous to the wolves because hunters used them to hunt wolves in that area).
Agree.
Wolves use a highly coordinated attack, where lead dogs harry the prey and are replaced as they tire.
Also, you need more than a simple strategy to take down an animal that can hurt you by kicking you with sharp hooves, poking you with antlers, or calling on 300 of it's close friends to trample you and your little pack to death.
Wolves use a highly coordinated attack, where lead dogs harry the prey and are replaced as they tire.
Also, you need more than a simple strategy to take down an animal that can hurt you by kicking you with sharp hooves, poking you with antlers, or calling on 300 of it's close friends to trample you and your little pack to death.
Just the process of separating an individual from the herd shows such a great deal of coordination, especially in the case of the herd circling multiple calves or calves with mothers.
Watching ~6 wolves chase 6 candidate buffalo, then quickly joining forces as soon as one target makes a mistake is incredible to watch.
Same as when they taunt individuals to draw them out and attack the flank.
And while the verbal communication of orcas is impressive, the wolves use of howls when out of sight, and visual cues while in sight is no less impressive to me.
Watching ~6 wolves chase 6 candidate buffalo, then quickly joining forces as soon as one target makes a mistake is incredible to watch.
Same as when they taunt individuals to draw them out and attack the flank.
And while the verbal communication of orcas is impressive, the wolves use of howls when out of sight, and visual cues while in sight is no less impressive to me.
It's not anything close to what's been observed in orcas.
The wolves vs. killer whales debate here is pretty intense.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8V97_DKfhw&t=0m44s
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDJgv1iARPg&t=0m28s
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8V97_DKfhw&t=0m44s
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDJgv1iARPg&t=0m28s
You don't see the cooperation and coordination in the video you just linked?
Not really. I see a lot of chaos.
I'm having trouble finding the statistics again, but I think the success rate of stereotypical pack or pride hunters like wolves or lions is actually quite low. Whereas it's my understanding that orca success rates are pretty high, despite hunting far more intelligent animals.
I'm having trouble finding the statistics again, but I think the success rate of stereotypical pack or pride hunters like wolves or lions is actually quite low. Whereas it's my understanding that orca success rates are pretty high, despite hunting far more intelligent animals.
I appreciate the facts but you seem to be a bit angry as in blaming all humans for the plight of orcas. Putting all humans in the same category won't win anyone over to your cause.
Misanthropy can sneak in sometimes. I don't lump all humans, but I think it's a majority opinion amongst humans that we are the intelligent animal, and other intelligent animals are only to be compared to each other. Wolves are also cool, but I think it's a bit misleading to call orcas the wolves of the sea.
Orcas are actually only one of two animals in the world, other than us, to go through menopause. It's an interesting biological development that some estimate it is so older orca females (orcas are matriarchal societies) to not sexually compete with younger females and can concentrate on leading and teaching to pass down knowledge. Wild orca females live quite long.
Like I said, wolves are certainly amazing animals, but I feel orcas are on another level. And we don't cage wolves as brutally as we do orcas. That, I am angry about.
Orcas are actually only one of two animals in the world, other than us, to go through menopause. It's an interesting biological development that some estimate it is so older orca females (orcas are matriarchal societies) to not sexually compete with younger females and can concentrate on leading and teaching to pass down knowledge. Wild orca females live quite long.
Like I said, wolves are certainly amazing animals, but I feel orcas are on another level. And we don't cage wolves as brutally as we do orcas. That, I am angry about.
you'd be interested in joining orcasound slack: https://join.slack.com/t/orcasound/shared_invite/zt-bd1jk2q9...
We basically just talk about orcas and how we can decode their language moving towards bidirectional comm.
We basically just talk about orcas and how we can decode their language moving towards bidirectional comm.
I am definitely interested and just signed up! Thank you for that invite. I'm obsessed with orcas and want to continue learning more.
I wouldn’t be surprised if many animals are smarter on average than humans are on average. I think that the only thing we really have on all other animals we know about is a developed system of writing.
>I wouldn’t be surprised if many animals are smarter on average than humans are on average.
This doesn't really make any sense. I realize it's fun to have opposite opinions of the majority on the internet but animals don't make complex tools, they don't have the ability for substantial transfer of information from generation to generation, and the complexity of communication in even the cleverest animals is very low compared to human language.
I'd be really surprised to learn there was a single lifeform on earth with anything approaching human level intelligence.
This doesn't really make any sense. I realize it's fun to have opposite opinions of the majority on the internet but animals don't make complex tools, they don't have the ability for substantial transfer of information from generation to generation, and the complexity of communication in even the cleverest animals is very low compared to human language.
I'd be really surprised to learn there was a single lifeform on earth with anything approaching human level intelligence.
Dolphins, which obviously include orcas, actually have more complex brains than ours, including the folds, which makes the surface area of the brain larger for its overall volume. It's not just about "opposite opinions of ... the internet". It's an ongoing scientific discussion, and the trend is usually "they're smarter than we thought".
> they don't have the ability for substantial transfer of information from generation to generation
They have to do so vocally. Technology development doesn't necessarily correlate, positively or negatively, with intelligence. Orcas and whales at large are highly limited by their appendages and environments in terms of technology development.
> complexity of communication in even the cleverest animals is very low compared to human language
Are you able to understand orca what orcas "say"? That seems to be a very strong statement when we know quite little about what they're able to communicate. Furthermore, whales having echolocation have built-in transmitters and receivers that are in addition to their normal vocalizations and hearing. It seems weird to make claims about how they experience the world given no one really knows. But we can surmise the possibility based upon scientific facts.
> I'd be really surprised to learn there was a single lifeform on earth with anything approaching human level intelligence.
If you put a human brain in an orca body (accepting the hypothetical), what could that brain do in that body and environment? Very little with regards to technology development (writing, tool use, etc.).
> they don't have the ability for substantial transfer of information from generation to generation
They have to do so vocally. Technology development doesn't necessarily correlate, positively or negatively, with intelligence. Orcas and whales at large are highly limited by their appendages and environments in terms of technology development.
> complexity of communication in even the cleverest animals is very low compared to human language
Are you able to understand orca what orcas "say"? That seems to be a very strong statement when we know quite little about what they're able to communicate. Furthermore, whales having echolocation have built-in transmitters and receivers that are in addition to their normal vocalizations and hearing. It seems weird to make claims about how they experience the world given no one really knows. But we can surmise the possibility based upon scientific facts.
> I'd be really surprised to learn there was a single lifeform on earth with anything approaching human level intelligence.
If you put a human brain in an orca body (accepting the hypothetical), what could that brain do in that body and environment? Very little with regards to technology development (writing, tool use, etc.).
You don't see the inconsistency between:
>Dolphins, which obviously include orcas, actually have more complex brains than ours
And this:
>>complexity of communication in even the cleverest animals is very low compared to human language
>Are you able to understand orca what orcas "say"? That seems to be a very strong statement when we know quite little about what they're able to communicate.
Are you able to understand what orcas "think"?
>Dolphins, which obviously include orcas, actually have more complex brains than ours
And this:
>>complexity of communication in even the cleverest animals is very low compared to human language
>Are you able to understand orca what orcas "say"? That seems to be a very strong statement when we know quite little about what they're able to communicate.
Are you able to understand what orcas "think"?
The physical structure of their brains is more complex. I thought that was clear from the follow-on context regarding their brains. Is it not a line of science to understand how brain folding contributes to intelligence? Further, orcas certainly show high levels of emotional and cooperative intelligence compared to humans. Sons stay together with their mothers throughout their lives in the same pods, and as far as I understand, there's relatively little, if any inter-pod fighting. They also readily share food throughout the pod. They are deeply connected to each other in a way that I think we have a hard time understanding.
This is a good book to take a look at: https://www.amazon.com/Deep-Thinkers-Inside-Dolphins-Porpois...
> Are you able to understand what orcas "think"?
No I do not, but one can surmise from the scientific study of them and behavioral observations. My point about them making a strong statement is that it isn't backed up by anything except a human-centric bias of intelligence.
And the person I replied to make an incredibly strong claim:
> complexity of communication in even the cleverest animals is very low compared to human language
That needs backing up. In the event that there is no backup, which I don't believe there is, then we have to leave possibility open, possibility that's informed by scientific and behavioral studies.
This is a good book to take a look at: https://www.amazon.com/Deep-Thinkers-Inside-Dolphins-Porpois...
> Are you able to understand what orcas "think"?
No I do not, but one can surmise from the scientific study of them and behavioral observations. My point about them making a strong statement is that it isn't backed up by anything except a human-centric bias of intelligence.
And the person I replied to make an incredibly strong claim:
> complexity of communication in even the cleverest animals is very low compared to human language
That needs backing up. In the event that there is no backup, which I don't believe there is, then we have to leave possibility open, possibility that's informed by scientific and behavioral studies.
Assuming dolphin brains are complex bc "folds" isn't a stretch, but assuming animal communication isn't as complex as human language is?
They’re smarter than we though is not the same they’re smarter than us on average.
> they don't have the ability for substantial transfer of information from generation to generation
Right, we have writing. They do pass information on in the form of habits, hunting or otherwise. It took humans a long time (many many generations) to collectively have the concept of the number 0. The things we have figured out and spend years passing on in school are hard-won and written down. The few humans who do figure out fundamentally new concepts often interact through written collections.
Right, we have writing. They do pass information on in the form of habits, hunting or otherwise. It took humans a long time (many many generations) to collectively have the concept of the number 0. The things we have figured out and spend years passing on in school are hard-won and written down. The few humans who do figure out fundamentally new concepts often interact through written collections.
Yea, for cetaceans, all of which are highly intelligent in various ways, they are severely limited in technology development due to their environment and their appendages, which evolved to fit their environment. They have no way to develop writing or tools beyond basic tool use with their mouth.
It can help to view more specific attributes of intelligence to make comparisons. An easy one, when comparing carnivores/omnivores: how many species can they hunt? Many predators specialize, eating only a single other species. Giant Pacific octopuses have a wide diet. Humans are at the top, though. By a longshot.
How about math? There are other species that understand addition and subtraction, I think, but none that can do multiplication or division.
How about math? There are other species that understand addition and subtraction, I think, but none that can do multiplication or division.
True, there are many metrics for intelligence. Humans also couldn’t do multiplication or division until we collectively had free time and a need to figure it out. Multiplication and division is not innate to our species, it’s something we learned and then wrote down.
Our species also knows how to make glass and refined metals and styrofoam and various concrete/mortar/brick formations. I doubt that anyone is an expert in all of the above and that most people in the developed world can only hope to obtain these things by going out and purchasing it from a store.
Furthermore, putting a bunch of intelligent but completely uneducated humans on an island is unlikely to result in a colony that understands multiplication and division in the next 100 or maybe even 1000 years.
Once humans are put into that setting (zero education), we are no longer comfortably at the top of the food-chain.
Our species also knows how to make glass and refined metals and styrofoam and various concrete/mortar/brick formations. I doubt that anyone is an expert in all of the above and that most people in the developed world can only hope to obtain these things by going out and purchasing it from a store.
Furthermore, putting a bunch of intelligent but completely uneducated humans on an island is unlikely to result in a colony that understands multiplication and division in the next 100 or maybe even 1000 years.
Once humans are put into that setting (zero education), we are no longer comfortably at the top of the food-chain.
These are all excellent points that I think people forget about and assume that humans have attained some sort of innate intelligence due to our societies and technologies.
The ability to store information is a big technological leap. Even then, it's taken us as a species 5,000 years to get here once we had writing.
The ability to store information is a big technological leap. Even then, it's taken us as a species 5,000 years to get here once we had writing.
Multiplication and division predate writing by many centuries.
Also, humans were comfortably at the top for the food chain even before we needed arithmetic or writing.
(Arguably, we started to need arithmetic and writing because we ate all the animals.)
Also, humans were comfortably at the top for the food chain even before we needed arithmetic or writing.
(Arguably, we started to need arithmetic and writing because we ate all the animals.)
> Also, humans were comfortably at the top for the food chain even before we needed arithmetic or writing.
Definitely, except for lions, tigers, leopards, jaguars, cougars, anacondas, pythons, sharks, crocodiles, alligators, bears, wolves, hyenas, coyotes, boars and ants, all of which have hunted humans and have maneaters among their ranks.
Humans were never apex predators... there was always something else that ate them, and though it is less often nowadays, it still happens.
Whatever virtue humans have as a species, it has nothing to do with being able to kill everything. I would call that an indulgence, not a virtue. Today, being able to kill something contributes nothing to survival. Compare effective hunting skills to skills that generate significant income. Money has far more to contribute to survival and procreation than having lethal hunting skills, an entirely worthless skill to have in nearly all modern societies. There are so few societies left where hunting is necessary, and we're talking about a few thousands or tens of thousands of people at most among 7B.
Definitely, except for lions, tigers, leopards, jaguars, cougars, anacondas, pythons, sharks, crocodiles, alligators, bears, wolves, hyenas, coyotes, boars and ants, all of which have hunted humans and have maneaters among their ranks.
Humans were never apex predators... there was always something else that ate them, and though it is less often nowadays, it still happens.
Whatever virtue humans have as a species, it has nothing to do with being able to kill everything. I would call that an indulgence, not a virtue. Today, being able to kill something contributes nothing to survival. Compare effective hunting skills to skills that generate significant income. Money has far more to contribute to survival and procreation than having lethal hunting skills, an entirely worthless skill to have in nearly all modern societies. There are so few societies left where hunting is necessary, and we're talking about a few thousands or tens of thousands of people at most among 7B.
I'm specifically replying to this:
> Once humans are put into that setting (zero education), we are no longer comfortably at the top of the food-chain.
Which isn't true. Humans used to hunt mammoths way back when we had zero education. (Some even claim that we hunted them to extinction.)
It doesn't get really get more 'top of the food chain' than that.
> Once humans are put into that setting (zero education), we are no longer comfortably at the top of the food-chain.
Which isn't true. Humans used to hunt mammoths way back when we had zero education. (Some even claim that we hunted them to extinction.)
It doesn't get really get more 'top of the food chain' than that.
> It doesn't get really get more 'top of the food chain' than that.
Sure it does. Aside from giant birds, crocodiles, and leopards, early humans likely had to contend with bears, sabertooth cats, snakes, hyenas, Komodo dragons, and even other hominins. As prey, the past was not a pleasant place for humans and our ancestors, because they were prey, not apex predators. You know, apex means nothing eats it. Just last year an alligator ate a man in Louisiana and they will again. That sort of disqualifies our species as "apex." The alligator is an apex predator because nothing predates them. Making sense yet?
Sure it does. Aside from giant birds, crocodiles, and leopards, early humans likely had to contend with bears, sabertooth cats, snakes, hyenas, Komodo dragons, and even other hominins. As prey, the past was not a pleasant place for humans and our ancestors, because they were prey, not apex predators. You know, apex means nothing eats it. Just last year an alligator ate a man in Louisiana and they will again. That sort of disqualifies our species as "apex." The alligator is an apex predator because nothing predates them. Making sense yet?
Are there human groups that don't educate their children?
Human inventions and discoveries can definitely be lost/forgotten (the bow and arrow was forgotten at some point on the way to Australia, hence boomerangs and atlatls). People from cultures that don't have multiplication and division have the capability to learn it.
Human inventions and discoveries can definitely be lost/forgotten (the bow and arrow was forgotten at some point on the way to Australia, hence boomerangs and atlatls). People from cultures that don't have multiplication and division have the capability to learn it.
Maursault(1)
Why Orcas are The Most Disrespectful Animals on the Planet
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HM3xxXP8Ms
Seems being an asshole is a sign of intelligence.
there, we have it! the legalists were right, we are born bad and only the environment can make us good. :)
Are Dolphins assholes?
Yes, they are with a lot of other species. Another intelligent species that can be real assholes are monkeys.
Orcas are dolphins.
Not sure why you were downvoted - this is explicitly true. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_whale
> The killer whale or orca (Orcinus orca) is a toothed whale belonging to the oceanic dolphin family, of which it is the largest member.
> The killer whale or orca (Orcinus orca) is a toothed whale belonging to the oceanic dolphin family, of which it is the largest member.
Yes.
If you ever have the chance to see them mating in the wild, about 30 seconds is all it takes to undo any goodwill you might have ever felt for them.
If you ever have the chance to see them mating in the wild, about 30 seconds is all it takes to undo any goodwill you might have ever felt for them.
So like cats?
https://archive.is/fjZNi