Being black in tech is exhausting(old.reddit.com)
old.reddit.com
Being black in tech is exhausting
https://old.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/sf1x77/being_black_in_tech_is_exhausting/
55 comments
I'm struggling to think of an industry where he would find others similar to himself but am coming up with nothing. It's a difficult combination of attributes to find others in numbers. I do have a friend who is similar to the author but he works in appealing medical claim denials instead of in tech. He seems very happy in his job and though I don't know for sure, I suspect that he's not surrounded by co-workers similar to himself. The difference might be that he gets lots of socialization outside of work due to having a very gregarious personality so maybe the lack of similar people at the office isn't noticeable to him in the same way it is for someone who needs to find some social connection at their job. Unfortunately telling someone to be gregarious isn't a realistic solution though perhaps trying to find more connection outside of work would be beneficial. Many of the problems the author listed aren't directly social in nature but likely would be more tolerable with a stronger social network outside of work.
> Except for the fact that being black in tech means you have to endure the black in tech trope, I couldn’t find anything that resonates with my personal experience.
Really? Having teachers accuse me of cheating sounded very familiar.
Really? Having teachers accuse me of cheating sounded very familiar.
I'm seeing a lot of people once again posing the theory that undoing affirmative action and other legislative forms of racial/gender equality enforcement would solve all these issues. This doesn't contribute to that theory in my opinion. Communities that are failing to be inclusive with affirmative action would only deteriorate further without it. This man working his hardest to overcome very difficult circumstances isn't getting recognized in the current day. The coworkers who label him a "diversity hire" because of the color of his skin, would all still be judging him on that were they forced to pick another label. Working in an inclusive company and a """inclusive""" company are wildly different experiences, but both are possible under the current system affirmative action provides.
I'd be more willing to hear about the critiques of legislation if better solutions were suggested, instead of the vague implication that the world was in total racial harmony before the 1960s.
I'd be more willing to hear about the critiques of legislation if better solutions were suggested, instead of the vague implication that the world was in total racial harmony before the 1960s.
Here's an easy rebuttal: you can't make people want to be around each other. Freedom of association is not a bug, but a feature. The more you try to force it, the more people will push back or find ways around it. Affirmative action doesn't work, not for lack of try on legislators' and employers' to "nerd harder", but because one cannot legislate association in a manner so convenient that one can assert that it should already exist.
If I have to choose between excluding minorities and bigots, I'm fine excluding bigots. The only benefits freedom of association gives is being able to ostracize those making bad choices.
Your claim is self-refuting. If one doesn't have freedom of association, one doesn't get a choice in whether one must associate with bigots or not.
I'm trying to address this in good faith but it's difficult to see any serious participation on your end. I imagine you're fully capable of reading and understanding the comment you replied to. My comment said in no uncertain terms that I was fine with the concept of freedom of association. I also completely understood that black people and racists aren't going to want to spend time together. The claim I made was that when picking between minorities and bigots, excluding bigots is 100% fine. I said in my top comment I've yet to hear a good argument for making bigot-friendly compromises, and your meritless "This claim is self-refuting" and then changing the subject without addressing my point is very much an example of bad argument.
This anecdote supports a theory I've been hearing about affirmative action harming excellent minority candidates.
It helps those who would've not made it otherwise, but for those who truly excel and would've made it either way; it diminishes their accomplishments in a way that's unfortunate.
It's not like affirmative action is a secret, the buyers in the labour market knows about it and will react accordingly.
In some ways, I guess it's similar to how people used to avoid buying cars made on a Monday.
It helps those who would've not made it otherwise, but for those who truly excel and would've made it either way; it diminishes their accomplishments in a way that's unfortunate.
It's not like affirmative action is a secret, the buyers in the labour market knows about it and will react accordingly.
In some ways, I guess it's similar to how people used to avoid buying cars made on a Monday.
> since we were probably "affirmative action" admits [...] Maybe in the workforce it would be better? Nope. I'm seen as a "diversity hire."
I'm starting to think there's more harm than good with affirmative action. It creates two categories of devs when looking at internal hiring: people you know are there on merit and people who maybe got a little bit of help from "the quota".
I've heard it (in engineering only meetings) "you know this guy is solid, he went to X and he's asian so you know he's there for the right reasons".
Something I have to wonder is are women and minorities... ok with this? Obviously the author isn't.
I'm starting to think there's more harm than good with affirmative action. It creates two categories of devs when looking at internal hiring: people you know are there on merit and people who maybe got a little bit of help from "the quota".
I've heard it (in engineering only meetings) "you know this guy is solid, he went to X and he's asian so you know he's there for the right reasons".
Something I have to wonder is are women and minorities... ok with this? Obviously the author isn't.
I think anything that draws attention to race only creates division. Yes it's honorable to try and right past wrongs in the current time but it's very hard to do without making things worse. It seems we're getting more divided into racial groups.
I am a minority, and I am furious that my advancement is besmirched with the asterisk of the possibility of affirmative action. But I am powerless and unheard.
Being eastern european in tech is exhausting. You dont get to enjoy any privileges that PoC get in the US and on top of that you are treated as the "good and cheap" worker that basically can't really say anything cuz he is white.
Being a human in tech is exhausting. All those computers talking to each other in binary, and when you try to communicate with them, they passively-aggressively interpret your commands literally, no matter how silly it is.
Your flippant dismissal of the GP comment perfectly illustrates their point.
I feel for you. Here in europe we have countries like germany where if you are non german (doesnt matter if white or not) you are basically shunned. There is little career progression after a certain level - a non german managing germans is unheard of. At least in the US there are options as its an open society.
Tbh, being Black in America is exhausting. I can't read the original post because its' been deleted from reddit, but if I could recoup all the time I used to spend "preparing" to go on errands or to work etc it would probably add upto several years.
I used to plan out my "missions" outside my house like they were military missions. Who was I going to see..who would see me, do I have too many pockets on my clothing, is my outfit too ethnic and on and on and on. The goal was minimize friction and make sure I had no encounters whatsoever. I wanted as sure as I possibly could that I couldn't be accused of shoplifting, stopped because my pants/outfit wasn't "appropriate" and on and on. It is draining to the soul to have to think about it every single minute, but the one minute you don't and you run into someone like that cop who tasered a pregnant woman until her baby died..... you are dead. And yes I considered moving to France when I graduated high school, but I worried myself out it and I regret it each. and. every. day.
I used to plan out my "missions" outside my house like they were military missions. Who was I going to see..who would see me, do I have too many pockets on my clothing, is my outfit too ethnic and on and on and on. The goal was minimize friction and make sure I had no encounters whatsoever. I wanted as sure as I possibly could that I couldn't be accused of shoplifting, stopped because my pants/outfit wasn't "appropriate" and on and on. It is draining to the soul to have to think about it every single minute, but the one minute you don't and you run into someone like that cop who tasered a pregnant woman until her baby died..... you are dead. And yes I considered moving to France when I graduated high school, but I worried myself out it and I regret it each. and. every. day.
Being a white cis man in tech is exhausting, because black, gay, asians and women think that you don't like them because they're black, gay, asians and women, while they don't understand that you don't really like anyone and you don't really care about white cis men either and would like to be left alone in your journey to retirement, but need to play it cool because otherwise HR explodes
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Can't tell if all the negative responses are a Reddit thing or a CS thing, but, wow. Just ..... wow. What a toxic mess.
I have friends at a high level at a few of the FAANG companies. They mentioned that hiring, promotion, and compensation activities are heavily driven by quotas that are illegal and discriminatory, but that it’s all handled in high-level meetings verbally with no paper trail and no transparency. For example at Amazon they reserve executive shadow roles for just women, trans people, Blacks, Latinos, and Native Americans. If you’re a White or Indian or Chinese male, you face a much harder road up the ladder because your merit won’t earn you opportunities. But no one dares to speak up because of how institutionalized DEI programs are. This would have sounded absurd to me five years ago, but even as an outsider I can see that social justice politics are everywhere in tech - I see it when I open the Amazon app or Spotify or whatever else. And I regularly hear the phrase “diversity hire” when surrounded by tech friends (usually in the context of successfully making a diversity hire), so what the poster shared here feels very possible. I feel bad for deserving candidates who belong to those demographic groups - I am sure their experience is especially exhausting.
If I’m a descendant of enslaved people, then sharecroppers, then parents living in the shadow of industrial complexes, it is possible and unlikely that I’ll be competitive for a FAANG position. Likewise if I’m the descendants of people sent to re-education camps (North American boarding schools). What are some other ways to help those who have been pushed down over the years by Eurocolonialism?
How about programs that are based on income, instead of skin color? That way you aren't giving the children of millionaires undue benefits if they happen to have more melanin, and you're not racially discriminating against people in generational poverty if they happen to have white skin.
I 100% agree with this.
It would be much better and less racist than affirmative action :-)
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I come from a a very very poor family ( both parents working minimum wage job) in a small city in canada that doesn’t have an university… and where no one speak english.
I now work at microsoft in Seattle and everyone I met at work have a similar story.
So I don’t think what you said is very accurate
I now work at microsoft in Seattle and everyone I met at work have a similar story.
So I don’t think what you said is very accurate
The racist undertones in your statement is abhorrent. There are many people who hold various illustrious positions in FAANG companies and acquired them through hard work. Progressive statements like yours not only discredit hard working minorities but Europeans as well.
You would probably be surprised to learn about how many people are descendants of enslaved people or existed in boarding schools as Europeans. The Irish comes to mind amongst others.
You would probably be surprised to learn about how many people are descendants of enslaved people or existed in boarding schools as Europeans. The Irish comes to mind amongst others.
You can recognize that racism has and continues to impact people without being racist.
I'd define Success as a dot product of hard work and luck. The less white society likes you, the more luck you need. A bit of extra luck doesn't discount the hard work.
I'd define Success as a dot product of hard work and luck. The less white society likes you, the more luck you need. A bit of extra luck doesn't discount the hard work.
I don’t think the “Irish as slaves” idea is historically accurate[1].
Even without the Wikipedia article, as an Irish person, it’s never come up in my education or in public discourse.
1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_slaves_myth
Even without the Wikipedia article, as an Irish person, it’s never come up in my education or in public discourse.
1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_slaves_myth
Slavery for Irish people looked like Indentured Servitude and may not have been as dehumanizing as chattel slavery but make absolutely no mistake it's still slavery.
Calling it a myth is an absolute joke.
Calling it a myth is an absolute joke.
Calling something that isn’t slavery slavery is simply incorrect, and the equivalence has been broadly dismissed by historians.
Without citations outside of the far-left dominated Wikipedia [1] your statements hold no merit.
Coming in to this conversation to downplay the hardships and cruelty imposed on various Europeans throughout the centuries is exactly the level of racism that your original posts presents.
1: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/wikipedia-bias-socialism-pa...
Coming in to this conversation to downplay the hardships and cruelty imposed on various Europeans throughout the centuries is exactly the level of racism that your original posts presents.
1: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/wikipedia-bias-socialism-pa...
ultimately the market will solve the problem as companies that hire/promote based on merit will out-compete those with other priorities
Not if these policies become law or industrywide requirements, such as NASDAQ dropping you from being listed on their exchange if you don't have DEI policies that meet NASDAQ's requirements.
the world consists of more than the United States
I very much doubt the Chinese would deliberately cripple their industry in a similar way
I very much doubt the Chinese would deliberately cripple their industry in a similar way
If you think the Chinese system is anything to aspire to then maybe you should move there for a while and try your luck and see how far you advance? Based on strictly merit I'm sure.
Isn’t it illegal to discriminate based on protected traits? I just looked up the policy you are referring to - NASDAQ now requires female board members and other types of minorities, which seems completely illegal and unethical:
https://corpgov.law.harvard.edu/2021/08/19/sec-adopts-nasdaq...
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I hope so, but many of these companies are massive, can copy the features of smaller companies (see Microsoft Teams versus Slack), and also benefit from low competition due to network effects, bundling of products, etc. Their sheer size and access to capital distorts the competitiveness of our markets.
So personally I don’t feel as hopeful unless we are willing to come up with new anti trust laws and enforce them.
agreed
and in the long term: if the West ends not being able to solve these problems we'll end up out-competed by the CCP (who definitely don't care about DEI)
and in the long term: if the West ends not being able to solve these problems we'll end up out-competed by the CCP (who definitely don't care about DEI)
Are you the reddit poster as well?
Why would that matter?
Because I may have an offer?
Your hostility is completely uncalled for by the way.
Hacker news is a special place, where the technically minded discuss many things of interest including opportunities.
It’s (still) a special place and if you want to keep it that way then consider shifting your perspective.
Your hostility is completely uncalled for by the way.
Hacker news is a special place, where the technically minded discuss many things of interest including opportunities.
It’s (still) a special place and if you want to keep it that way then consider shifting your perspective.
I don't think it was hostile at all; it's just a request to clarify your question, the relevancy and intent of which was entirely unclear.
This is true, and considering the adversity faced by the poster I think its reasonable to clarify. Why would someone who has dealt with that sort of discrimination reply to a post with such unclear intent? They could be walking into a landmine, even on HN
It was their downvote that came with it. Also, their recent comment history.
Otherwise I’d agree
Otherwise I’d agree
I actually upvoted you
Technically your reply explaining your intent is what I upvoted, I have not voted on the top comment because it was unclear to me
Technically your reply explaining your intent is what I upvoted, I have not voted on the top comment because it was unclear to me
In that case I owe you an
apology. Someone didn’t like my question and given the dicey topic, I read too much into your own.
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I read the whole post, initially because of the title, looking to connect with what he says. Except for the fact that being black in tech means you have to endure the black in tech trope, I couldn’t find anything that resonates with my personal experience.
However, I do have the experience of a straight black man in a group of the same ostracizing a feminine black man in a small town; including the church ostracism. It sounds brutal from the other side.
I’ve read and written about what it’s like to be black in tech, and this doesn’t represent that experience.