My transition from Windows to Linux in an anti-customer age(scottrlarson.com)
scottrlarson.com
My transition from Windows to Linux in an anti-customer age
https://www.scottrlarson.com/publications/publication-transition-windows-to-linux/
172 comments
This comment is strange because the only OS that I never had serious issues with Bluetooth is Linux, specially after migrating to PipeWire.
Windows always had some strange driver that were hit or miss depending of the dongle.
However macOS is much worse: I have a Galaxy Buds 2 that works perfectly in all my devices (Android, Nintendo Switch, my notebooks running Linux, etc.), but with my work provided MacBook Pro it randomly disconnects one ear, or the audio gets completely garbled after a while. Other teammates report similar issues with their Bluetooth earbuds, from completely different manufacturers.
Even without the above issue, connecting/disconnecting the device opens Apple Music and there seems to be no way to disable this behavior unless you buy an Airpods or disable all other music shortcuts.
It kinda seems that Apple makes the Bluetooth experience horrible for everyone else just to sell more Airpods.
Windows always had some strange driver that were hit or miss depending of the dongle.
However macOS is much worse: I have a Galaxy Buds 2 that works perfectly in all my devices (Android, Nintendo Switch, my notebooks running Linux, etc.), but with my work provided MacBook Pro it randomly disconnects one ear, or the audio gets completely garbled after a while. Other teammates report similar issues with their Bluetooth earbuds, from completely different manufacturers.
Even without the above issue, connecting/disconnecting the device opens Apple Music and there seems to be no way to disable this behavior unless you buy an Airpods or disable all other music shortcuts.
It kinda seems that Apple makes the Bluetooth experience horrible for everyone else just to sell more Airpods.
I think the issue is with bluetooth itself. i personally never use it, i find it very flaky at best.
It is definitively not. I mean, Bluetooth is unreliable, but what happens in most of my other devices is a small 1~2 seconds gap in the sound. On macOS it simply stops working until I reconnect my device.
I've also had bad experiences with bluetooth on macbooks. For me the apple "magic" mouse becomes unusable if I also have any bluetooth headphone connected.
I use manjaro a version of arch and I will never go back. Yes, sometimes things to don't but windows has issues as well.
I had it with this anti user direction we are going because you know "security reasons". Microsoft decides what is malware, they decide what we are allowed to install, they track everything you do and if you want to turn if off forget it. Everytime you update they try to force you to make a MS account, I don't need this crap in my life.
I'd rather spend an hour fixing something and knowing it's all under my control and my interests not some corporation's profit interests.
I had it with this anti user direction we are going because you know "security reasons". Microsoft decides what is malware, they decide what we are allowed to install, they track everything you do and if you want to turn if off forget it. Everytime you update they try to force you to make a MS account, I don't need this crap in my life.
I'd rather spend an hour fixing something and knowing it's all under my control and my interests not some corporation's profit interests.
I tried to use Linux but it was a death by a thousand paper cuts of bugs and glitches. I've never experienced Windows stopping me from running a program, maybe you're actually trying to run malware? It's a good idea to install an antivirus or at least windows defender so you can avoid these.
Windows after version 7 is essentially death by a thousand dark patterns, forced surprise updates, forgotten preferences, etc..
Linux is death by a thousand bugs and glitches, I've never experienced a dark pattern in Windows.
Staying on windows 95 for the last two decades is an underrated move, I definitely agree with that.
Windows 11, latest patch. What dark pattern am I not seeing?
Making it difficult to install alternative browsers? Requiring you push 5 "skip" buttons to avoid getting a Microsoft online account on a Windows install? And perhaps coming soon to a computer near you:
Microsoft is testing ads in the Windows 11 File Explorer: https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/microsoft/microsoft-is...
Microsoft is testing ads in the Windows 11 File Explorer: https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/microsoft/microsoft-is...
Try Virtualbox in combination with docker and WSL2, that was a disaster in Windows.
How so?
What a strange sequence.
For my own part, I have never used Windows as my day to day machine. I moved from MSDOS to a UNIX Desktop in 1992 then to a Linux Desktop in 2001. I don't know why others seem to have problems with UNIX/Linux Desktops.
My take is that the 'super-duper Windows users' must take the time and effort to 'UNLEARN their Windows Thinking' but they don't bother taking that first step. Consequently every problem for them is a nail that they must hit with their only tool, a hammer.
3. Why is my battery life so bad?
I bought a Lenovo P53 laptop last year. For quite a while I thought that my battery icon on the panel ('taskbar' for you Windows types) was faulty because my battery just seems to go on and on.
For my own part, I have never used Windows as my day to day machine. I moved from MSDOS to a UNIX Desktop in 1992 then to a Linux Desktop in 2001. I don't know why others seem to have problems with UNIX/Linux Desktops.
My take is that the 'super-duper Windows users' must take the time and effort to 'UNLEARN their Windows Thinking' but they don't bother taking that first step. Consequently every problem for them is a nail that they must hit with their only tool, a hammer.
3. Why is my battery life so bad?
I bought a Lenovo P53 laptop last year. For quite a while I thought that my battery icon on the panel ('taskbar' for you Windows types) was faulty because my battery just seems to go on and on.
> 2. Install latest Ubuntu. [...] I am so tired of constantly fixing something.
Maybe don't use a deliberately worsened version of Debian.
Maybe don't use a deliberately worsened version of Debian.
Do the settings once. Keep a copy of ~/ and /etc handy. Apply all settings in one go at will. Stop fiddling around, making a fuss about nothing and just keep on using it.
How do you "just keep using" apps that are broken and need lots of fiddling to fix them, often repeatedly after every app update?
Personally I'm using NixOS, sometimes a rebuild is broken, but that's not an issue since I can keep using the old ones in a snap... I'm not using Windows, my last one was XP in it's early days, but anytime for a reason or another I'm on it on someone else desktop the experience is so frustrating that I do not know how it's users can keep using it...
NixOS is complicated to use, it's nice to say "everyone should learn nixos" but that's not realistic. It's easier to use Windows.
It's debatable: it's easier a system that when it decide to upgrade can regularly lock you out in an "waiting" state for an unknown time until it hopefully finished without error then a system that you can re-deploy just with few lines of already written code?
It's easier a system that degrade while you use it, deriving to unknown states quickly or one you can rebuild and you normally do that upon any upgrade?
IMVHO Nix language is horrific, yes, that's a big issue and I dream Guix for that witch unfortunately it's not mature enough for my needs, but what NixOS offer:
- custom image to deploy just a simple .nix + oneliner away
- reproducibility
makes it far easier than any other system we have these days. Consider that the fact most people decide to make acrobatics on a blade simply ignoring the fact their system once installed, typically in a manual way, derive and degrade, keeping manually managing it fixing issues as they appear without even a real "backup plan" (at maximum having backups of personal data, witch are useless without the working OS) does means "easy" as "hey, it's easy not thinking, living day-to-day no matter what", yes it might be easy, until shit happen, when (not if) happen... Such easiness demand a potentially very big and up-front unknown price.
Thanks to NixOS I've upgraded many time my home infra, smoothly, I have everything up to date and everything can survive hw changes, crashes etc without much manual work in a reproducible manner. Oh, and that without wasting a gazillion of resources for things like ks and their obscenely long YAML-based setups, containers that are loooooong to rebuild to a point many simply do it once in a while etc.
Windows might sound simple for some because of ignorance: they already know it and only it, they get it pre-installed, when something happen they call for third party support etc, but that's not easiness that's habit+offloading problems to others. An easy recipe for disasters and hi opex + regular capex with much randomness.
In "complete" (desktop) terms classic systems were meant to last a decade of comfortable usage*, they were products with a significant value, mastered by the user/buyer of them; now systems last mostly only few years just to sell new and even more crappy hw, stating "hey, do not worry your data are secured on our servers, just pay us what we told you to pay, at our condition since you depend on us for anything".
It's easier a system that degrade while you use it, deriving to unknown states quickly or one you can rebuild and you normally do that upon any upgrade?
IMVHO Nix language is horrific, yes, that's a big issue and I dream Guix for that witch unfortunately it's not mature enough for my needs, but what NixOS offer:
- custom image to deploy just a simple .nix + oneliner away
- reproducibility
makes it far easier than any other system we have these days. Consider that the fact most people decide to make acrobatics on a blade simply ignoring the fact their system once installed, typically in a manual way, derive and degrade, keeping manually managing it fixing issues as they appear without even a real "backup plan" (at maximum having backups of personal data, witch are useless without the working OS) does means "easy" as "hey, it's easy not thinking, living day-to-day no matter what", yes it might be easy, until shit happen, when (not if) happen... Such easiness demand a potentially very big and up-front unknown price.
Thanks to NixOS I've upgraded many time my home infra, smoothly, I have everything up to date and everything can survive hw changes, crashes etc without much manual work in a reproducible manner. Oh, and that without wasting a gazillion of resources for things like ks and their obscenely long YAML-based setups, containers that are loooooong to rebuild to a point many simply do it once in a while etc.
Windows might sound simple for some because of ignorance: they already know it and only it, they get it pre-installed, when something happen they call for third party support etc, but that's not easiness that's habit+offloading problems to others. An easy recipe for disasters and hi opex + regular capex with much randomness.
In "complete" (desktop) terms classic systems were meant to last a decade of comfortable usage*, they were products with a significant value, mastered by the user/buyer of them; now systems last mostly only few years just to sell new and even more crappy hw, stating "hey, do not worry your data are secured on our servers, just pay us what we told you to pay, at our condition since you depend on us for anything".
The answers to all your "whys" is: because vendors don't support linux as a first class citizen. It's as simple as that. And why don't they? Because people don't use their wallets enough to support the ones that do.
> I think now that WSL has matured
Again with the WSL. It's just a VM with preconfigured integration, and without the ability to tweak it to taste. I much prefer to run VirtualBox or VMWare, and we've been able to do this for a long, long time.
Again with the WSL. It's just a VM with preconfigured integration, and without the ability to tweak it to taste. I much prefer to run VirtualBox or VMWare, and we've been able to do this for a long, long time.
I've taken the dive to running Linux again recently. Not on all my machines, just on the older gaming laptop which I set up with a bigger SSD and Ubuntu Studio. I realized that I was right on the precipice of actually having an entirely open media creation app stack I could see myself using(Blender, Inkscape, Krita, plus Syncthing to move data from other devices), and therefore could have a media making box running Linux - so I booted up on a freshly flashed USB, tested my tablet, it worked. All the hardware has worked, although the laptop keyboard is doing the "shift and pageup acts like numpad 9" thing, which I haven't looked into yet - but isn't too important since I am gonna use external keebs. Then add in that Renoise works and supports plugins - maybe not all the commercial plugins, but in exchange you get hundreds of LV2 plugins with no separate install process, and I was sold on the concept. In this limited role, I wouldn't run into problems related to software I wasn't using, and therefore it wouldn't develop into that general frustration with Linux as an all-purpose desktop.
There are still flaws - the keyboard thing, and then Pulseaudio and JACK not getting along well so if I want to listen to a reference on YouTube while Renoise is open, I have to fiddle with the JACK session management to plug one into the other - but even that one has been addressed with the Ubuntu Studio UI having a feature just for that use case. And I have two installs of some of the media apps because I have a version from snap plus a version from apt. It's like, yeah, still rough edges, but these are comparable rough edges to what I see on contemporary Windows, and I'm in a better position to fix them.
I've actually been helping to troubleshoot a Windows issue for my mom while I set this up: "sometimes only the right side of my earphones (her term) plays sound, it's been happening for months". At first we thought this was a connection issue and after determining that the headphones were not faulty, replaced the speakers she plugs into(which she likes using because of the physical volume knob). Then it still happened afterwards and I finally caught on to the idea that it was software, and after poking around saw that there was preinstalled audio enhancement crap on top of the Realtek driver doing auto detection when the jack is plugged in - just poking around with the software, it started working, perhaps because doing that updated a config file somewhere. Perhaps it originally started because of a Windows update. It's all mystery meat, so who knows. For now I've advised her to turn the speakers off and then on again if it happens, but I might look into removing the bloatware too. I did have her temporarily on Linux at one point just running off a USB stick when the OS drive on her old machine failed. She loved it, all she ever did was watch YouTube and check email and it was perfect for months. Then Dad got her a new computer, and she's now a bit resistant to using Linux again because of her Word documents. But she also hates that Word has cloud features(even though she does nothing to properly archive her documents and is an obvious candidate to benefit from cloud sync). Perhaps I will broach the question of using a Word alternative if the computer issues keep up.
Bottom line, I do still think of Linux desktops as a tinkering space, but increasingly a viable one in a professional setting if you aren't working against a fixed standard(like an artist that needs Adobe CC or a grandma that needs Word) and can use tinkering to your advantage to hack out a custom workflow.
There are still flaws - the keyboard thing, and then Pulseaudio and JACK not getting along well so if I want to listen to a reference on YouTube while Renoise is open, I have to fiddle with the JACK session management to plug one into the other - but even that one has been addressed with the Ubuntu Studio UI having a feature just for that use case. And I have two installs of some of the media apps because I have a version from snap plus a version from apt. It's like, yeah, still rough edges, but these are comparable rough edges to what I see on contemporary Windows, and I'm in a better position to fix them.
I've actually been helping to troubleshoot a Windows issue for my mom while I set this up: "sometimes only the right side of my earphones (her term) plays sound, it's been happening for months". At first we thought this was a connection issue and after determining that the headphones were not faulty, replaced the speakers she plugs into(which she likes using because of the physical volume knob). Then it still happened afterwards and I finally caught on to the idea that it was software, and after poking around saw that there was preinstalled audio enhancement crap on top of the Realtek driver doing auto detection when the jack is plugged in - just poking around with the software, it started working, perhaps because doing that updated a config file somewhere. Perhaps it originally started because of a Windows update. It's all mystery meat, so who knows. For now I've advised her to turn the speakers off and then on again if it happens, but I might look into removing the bloatware too. I did have her temporarily on Linux at one point just running off a USB stick when the OS drive on her old machine failed. She loved it, all she ever did was watch YouTube and check email and it was perfect for months. Then Dad got her a new computer, and she's now a bit resistant to using Linux again because of her Word documents. But she also hates that Word has cloud features(even though she does nothing to properly archive her documents and is an obvious candidate to benefit from cloud sync). Perhaps I will broach the question of using a Word alternative if the computer issues keep up.
Bottom line, I do still think of Linux desktops as a tinkering space, but increasingly a viable one in a professional setting if you aren't working against a fixed standard(like an artist that needs Adobe CC or a grandma that needs Word) and can use tinkering to your advantage to hack out a custom workflow.
yeah i don't think linux is really a consumer OS. even ubuntu.
i tried ubuntu recently after about 5 years and it seems to have become much slower too.
i tried ubuntu recently after about 5 years and it seems to have become much slower too.
I’ve been using Linux exclusively at home for about 3 years (Fedora). I game, program and do office work. Maybe I’ve just gotten used to it, but I really don’t run into problems these days. I still need to live in windows for work and coming from my home environment I find it pretty painful to work in honestly.
1970s: Secretaries learn to use Emacs for documents, and to literally write Emacs Lisp to customize it to their needs
2020s: Professional software developers on Hackernews: "Desktop Linux doesn't have software that works exactly like the software I like, so it's a complete nonstarter. I'd rather keep bending over for Microsoft than deal with anything different or with any sort of learning required."
2020s: Professional software developers on Hackernews: "Desktop Linux doesn't have software that works exactly like the software I like, so it's a complete nonstarter. I'd rather keep bending over for Microsoft than deal with anything different or with any sort of learning required."
Correct.
If the utility on Linux is not the exact same as Windows (or doesn't even exist, the horror!), then modifying your behavior or expectations is insane and is considered "ricing" and a complete waste of your time.
If the utility on Linux is not the exact same as Windows (or doesn't even exist, the horror!), then modifying your behavior or expectations is insane and is considered "ricing" and a complete waste of your time.
I laughed. Emacs is well-defined and well-designed. That doesn't apply to the rest of the software people have made for Linux in the last 50 years.
That's a wildly improper comparison, those secretaries were using that single text editor, strictly during their worktime. A (power)user today - besides learning the quirks of a whole operating system - possibly needs to adopt their workplace workflow, personal apps, media consumption, all the connected hardware like inputs, display, printer, smartphone connection, networking...
"Sorry... I'd love to make the switch but I can't do it until they get Apple Mail up and running."
> In 2015 when Windows 10 rebooted my machine to automatically install an update, closing down an unsaved document I was in the middle of working on,
Do I have some magic aura that causes Microsoft to give me at least a 12 hour warning about updates? Because I honestly can't remember a time this sort of thing (instant update, no warning) has ever happened to me with Windows.
I love Linux and do as much as I can for my job with it, or at least as close to POSIXy *ix as I can, but I hear these Windows stories and they just aren't in my reality.
Note: I don't have an overbearing company that pushes a slew of nanny-spy-ware on to my work machine - I have a friend who does, and I BELIEVE his tales of woe because I believe him.
Do I have some magic aura that causes Microsoft to give me at least a 12 hour warning about updates? Because I honestly can't remember a time this sort of thing (instant update, no warning) has ever happened to me with Windows.
I love Linux and do as much as I can for my job with it, or at least as close to POSIXy *ix as I can, but I hear these Windows stories and they just aren't in my reality.
Note: I don't have an overbearing company that pushes a slew of nanny-spy-ware on to my work machine - I have a friend who does, and I BELIEVE his tales of woe because I believe him.
> Do I have some magic aura that causes Microsoft to give me at least a 12 hour warning about updates? Because I honestly can't remember a time this sort of thing (instant update, no warning) has ever happened to me with Windows.
Many consider a 12 hour warning entirely insufficient. Many consider an auto reboot that you didn’t initiate entirely unacceptable.
Many consider a 12 hour warning entirely insufficient. Many consider an auto reboot that you didn’t initiate entirely unacceptable.
It happens. The warning was probably ignored or forgotten. Keep in mind, a lot of people like Windows because they prioritize what they do with a computer over what they have to do for the computer. Interrupting their work is the last thing on their mind, particularly if it involves relaunching applications and pulling up documents after that interruption. They may have even developed habits such as walking away from the computer thinking that everything will be there when they return (including unsaved work).
I tend to ignore anything Windows tries to tell me because it’s usually an ad or otherwise useless.
I usually tell people near me: If Windows (or Android and iOS, on this matter) wants to do X, assume it is an user-unfriendly move and do the inverse of X.
Not all programs bubbles up those notifications when you are in full screen, and since default behavior is to shut down the computer after x minutes of the notification appearing it will look like the computer restarts out of nowhere.
Windows could have checked "if the user is actively using the computer do not restart", but no the computer just restarts in the middle of a gaming sessions or whatever.
Windows could have checked "if the user is actively using the computer do not restart", but no the computer just restarts in the middle of a gaming sessions or whatever.
> Windows could have checked "if the user is actively using the computer do not restart", but no the computer just restarts in the middle of a gaming sessions or whatever.
Even better would be to ask (and respect a user’s decision if they say “no”).
Even better would be to ask (and respect a user’s decision if they say “no”).
Like this? https://i.imgur.com/j3TZBEE.png
You work the exact same hours every day, to the minute? Really?
That one time you were doing something at 23:05 and the computer "randomly" reboots without warning, is going to stick out in your memory... as it probably should.
That one time you were doing something at 23:05 and the computer "randomly" reboots without warning, is going to stick out in your memory... as it probably should.
Heh, that was what prompted me to switch to Linux, all the way back in 2003!
Suddenly saw that Windows was rebooting the computer. I had about 1 minute of warning and I lost a lot of work.
Suddenly saw that Windows was rebooting the computer. I had about 1 minute of warning and I lost a lot of work.
You're referring to Blaster (worm), right?
Nope, no worm or malware, just an automated windows reboot. There was a dialog box saying Windows had to reboot, and it was counting down. I saw it when it had a minute left.
It was at that point I realised I was not in control of my own machine. And I switched to Linux the next day.
Kept a dual boot of Windows for years, but hardly ever booted into it once I got comfortable.
It was at that point I realised I was not in control of my own machine. And I switched to Linux the next day.
Kept a dual boot of Windows for years, but hardly ever booted into it once I got comfortable.
I must've read too much into you mentioning that particular year (being of course the one with the Blaster's infamous if unintentional countdown to reboot due to XP's RPC service crashing). For me, it might've well been one of the bigger reasons why XP was also the last Windows as the main OS on my home computers.
Yeah, just a normal windows thing for me. If it had just been malware I'd probably have just installed a better anti virus and firewall or something. It was the fact that my own computer was working against me that soured me on Windows.
> In 2015 when Windows 10 rebooted my machine to automatically install an update, closing down an unsaved document I was in the middle of working on,
I'll never understand why Linux users have this inescapable urge to leave unsaves changes in their apps and go on a two-week vacation. You have to save your files, people. It's computer 101.
I'll never understand why Linux users have this inescapable urge to leave unsaves changes in their apps and go on a two-week vacation. You have to save your files, people. It's computer 101.
I walked away from my workstation and was gone for about 20mins. I understand your point, Its important to save, and I am always saving my documents, but sometimes you can forget to save. An unexpected restart or crash I can understand, but to force reboot a system for a update is unacceptable, and even being forced to update later is the same issue. Its my machine, Ill updated it when I'm ready, or not at all.
You were likely nagged for weeks by the system to update OR you dual-boot Linux and you switched over to Windows for a quick document edit. And then, when the popup showed up, and gave you the choice to dismiss it, you didn't pay attention (who pays attention to popups?) and clicked the "reboot now" button. It happens. But, now that you know what to avoid, you won't run into the issue again. Assuming you ever use Windows again, that is.
12 hours... Nice, people will just forget before 2 minutes.
I use both: Linux and Windows. Replacing Windows is out of the question as I have Windows based product and I also use Windows to develop software for Linux as well. All my Windows machines are Win 10 except one with Win 11 which I turn on every once in a while strictly to see if my product works. I might've done something with the settings and did all installations while disconnected from the Internet. Other then that I am curious what is so different in all my Windows setups? I do not have any ads and never mind Windows rebooting when editing documents mine never reboots on its own. When it is ready for update it just displays some icon in the tray. If I click it it will ask me to perform updates (which I normally do). Otherwise it just stays the way it is and does not reboot on its own.
Windows 11 - it introduced enough flow disrupting changes so for now my attitude is fuck it. Will see what happens in the future.
Windows 11 - it introduced enough flow disrupting changes so for now my attitude is fuck it. Will see what happens in the future.
Here I am, back in Windows. I’m realizing that my journey to a Freedom-Of-Choice Desktop environment is riddled with traps from my past. My familiarity with the apps and processes of Windows haunts my every move. It’s challenging to find replacements and workarounds for what I used to be able to do… But then my determination kicked in. If I really think about it, would it be such a loss to switch to a Linux alternative? I rebooted back into Linux and got to work. Any hope for a Windows-centric guy to transcend his limitations and biases? Only time will tell…
I tried running on Linux (Ubuntu) and using Reaper, so I don't have to use Windows with it's BS.
Getting the audio stack running was a nightmare, and it always just sounded bad. Something was wrong with the drivers that caused a ton of latency and weird compression. It appeared to be something to do with everyone's favorite default audio system: Pulseaudio (have a look sometime at how many troubleshooting steps there are for the simple "I'm not getting audio out of Ubuntu", it's silly)
I spent a few days trying to figure out the proper magical incantation to make ALSA work with my setup (Scarlet 2i2, pretty common), with no success. No matter how many semi-sketchy and unofficial websites I went through.
Put it on Windows, works out of the box, sounds great. Went back to recording audio instead of doing IT.
Getting the audio stack running was a nightmare, and it always just sounded bad. Something was wrong with the drivers that caused a ton of latency and weird compression. It appeared to be something to do with everyone's favorite default audio system: Pulseaudio (have a look sometime at how many troubleshooting steps there are for the simple "I'm not getting audio out of Ubuntu", it's silly)
I spent a few days trying to figure out the proper magical incantation to make ALSA work with my setup (Scarlet 2i2, pretty common), with no success. No matter how many semi-sketchy and unofficial websites I went through.
Put it on Windows, works out of the box, sounds great. Went back to recording audio instead of doing IT.
Sound is the primary reason why I eventually left the Linux desktop - it broke on a regular basis, and randomly, because of pulseaudio. It worked in some apps, and not in others. In the end, I needed to get some work done, and not constantly fix my workstation, so I went down the OSX route I never looked back (no need to tinker at all, and I kind of understand the UI, while I find Windows to be very confusing, and to require tinkering ).
I started using Linux in 1996, used a Linux desktop as my main box between 2001 and 2011, but, much to my chagrin, it just never reached any kind of 'it just works' level. Sure, there were good parts ( interesting UI ideas ), but the moment you started plugging/doing funky things into your computer ( printers, bluetooth, power outlets, wifi, speakers, fonts, multiple screens, 3d cards, etc you name it ), things started not working as expected.
Note I still use a Linux workstation at the office. It still doesn't work well for anything which is not terminal oriented, it still loses its graphics settings on a regular basis, I still run into graphics driver issues, but I have a windows box next to it to handle everything else.
The one thing I really miss on windows/OSX is i3, which completely changed my view of windowed environments ( I gave up on Gnome/KDE eons ago ).
I started using Linux in 1996, used a Linux desktop as my main box between 2001 and 2011, but, much to my chagrin, it just never reached any kind of 'it just works' level. Sure, there were good parts ( interesting UI ideas ), but the moment you started plugging/doing funky things into your computer ( printers, bluetooth, power outlets, wifi, speakers, fonts, multiple screens, 3d cards, etc you name it ), things started not working as expected.
Note I still use a Linux workstation at the office. It still doesn't work well for anything which is not terminal oriented, it still loses its graphics settings on a regular basis, I still run into graphics driver issues, but I have a windows box next to it to handle everything else.
The one thing I really miss on windows/OSX is i3, which completely changed my view of windowed environments ( I gave up on Gnome/KDE eons ago ).
Same here. I'm a Linux advocate (even named my son after the creator) and I definitely manage more Linux than Windows machines but after trying (forcing) Linux on my main workstation I gave up.
I need nvidia drivers (for ML and sysadmin stuff) and had so many random problems with multiple distros like sound randomly wasn't working or some USB ports were not detecting anything.
WSL has changed the game and now I have the stable and driver supported desktop environment with all the tools I love from my linux servers.
I need nvidia drivers (for ML and sysadmin stuff) and had so many random problems with multiple distros like sound randomly wasn't working or some USB ports were not detecting anything.
WSL has changed the game and now I have the stable and driver supported desktop environment with all the tools I love from my linux servers.
>I need nvidia drivers (for ML and sysadmin stuff)
Even with WSL I don't see how Windows is better than Linux for nvidia ML stuff and I use Windows+WSL, too. Care to explain?
Even with WSL I don't see how Windows is better than Linux for nvidia ML stuff and I use Windows+WSL, too. Care to explain?
I like Linux and have used both professionally but too much of my income is dependent on Windows. That and it's just a great day to day environment. I'm just sticking with 10 for the foreseeable future and hope Microsoft turns direction. But I'm not holding my breath.
I switched about the time windows made a major change too. Maybe it was win10? I don't remember. The point is when I hop on a windows machine now it feels just foreign enough that I go back to Ubuntu.
Gave up on Microsoft in the 90s. Never looked back.
Me too. Had to go back to Windows at $JOB recently and find the experience... unpleasant, to put it mildly. I guess once you get used to a certain way it's difficult to change it. Hoping to get rid of Windows again soon. Can't imagine using W11, from what I've seen.
Same situation. I've used Windows over the years for playing some games with friends, but even that had become something that I can do entirely in Linux too.
Call me a fool, but I'm also loving Gnome 40+ and GTK 4.6+, especially with libadwaita.
Call me a fool, but I'm also loving Gnome 40+ and GTK 4.6+, especially with libadwaita.
I also left Windows in the mid-1990's. I have tried looking back from time to time, when it felt like it would make life at work easier. The thing is, it never does. That doesn't really say anything about Windows, since it has improved a lot over the years and my reasons for leaving it are no longer valid. It says more about what I am used to, how I expect to get things done, what I am willing to put up with, and what I am not willing to put up with.
I've been trying since the 90s. I became a Linux expert, but I've still failed to switch to Linux. The reasons are probably: (A) The mythos of Microsoft collecting all of our information and storing it until the end of time seems incredibly unrealistic to me (B) I don't like friction, Linux is full of unnecessary friction to get anything done (C) Lack of commercial programs, and a user base that is actively hostile to the idea of commercial software (FOSS is better, don't you know?) and/or hostile to changes that would make commercial software more viable on Linux (D) Difficulty in actually fixing things, which I have tried to do many times (the Linux ecosystem is built from some truly awful codebases) (E) constant glitches and bugs, which I don't have time to track down and fix
Same story here, happy Linux user since the 90s... at home on family computers and at job. It's like choosing Netflix vs HBO Go - takes a few days to find your favorites, once you get it you are all set and don't worry anymore about the competition.
I've no doubt that significant proprietary software and games tie people to Windows. However, if a) those are not core to your desktop OS use, b) you care about privacy and your OS not doing a lot of external communication behind your back, and c) you're a member of this community, it's hard to understand why you wouldn't take something like Linux seriously as a daily driver.
Step one is admitting that all desktop operating systems suck - none of them are actually engineered, they've just been crafted over decades. Second is realizing that unless you don't give a damn about what is going behind your back on your own system, you will have to embrace some form of suck. Maybe the Windows and MacOS fans don't mind having to do things like trick Windows into not sending "telemetry" or using Little Snitch to block whatever daemons Apple wants communicating to their servers for every executable you run.
As much as I swear JWZ was right about the CADT development model, more often than not, if I learn the incantations I can deterministically make Linux do what I need it to do. And I'm no software development badass like many here. I hate that I have to know so much about something so clearly not well-engineered, but am glad that it's deterministic and there's no vendor hellbent on trying to keep me from configuring my system in the way I see fit. In the worst case if I can't figure it out from documentation, forums, whatever, I can look at source code. I'm not going to tell you "Linux is awesome!", but I will say that I think it's the least bad option.
Also, of the common choices out there, I find today's KDE to be quite usable and pleasant.
Step one is admitting that all desktop operating systems suck - none of them are actually engineered, they've just been crafted over decades. Second is realizing that unless you don't give a damn about what is going behind your back on your own system, you will have to embrace some form of suck. Maybe the Windows and MacOS fans don't mind having to do things like trick Windows into not sending "telemetry" or using Little Snitch to block whatever daemons Apple wants communicating to their servers for every executable you run.
As much as I swear JWZ was right about the CADT development model, more often than not, if I learn the incantations I can deterministically make Linux do what I need it to do. And I'm no software development badass like many here. I hate that I have to know so much about something so clearly not well-engineered, but am glad that it's deterministic and there's no vendor hellbent on trying to keep me from configuring my system in the way I see fit. In the worst case if I can't figure it out from documentation, forums, whatever, I can look at source code. I'm not going to tell you "Linux is awesome!", but I will say that I think it's the least bad option.
Also, of the common choices out there, I find today's KDE to be quite usable and pleasant.
I ran Linux on the desktop for 19 years before moving to Macs. I never had any hardware issues, because I always bought kit that was well-supported under Linux, and stayed away from, say, "winmodems" and wifi chipsets with Windows-only binary blobs. I think so many of the problems people have with trying to move to Linux is that they get a wild hair one day, and then just try to switch, using the Microsoft-subsidized hardware they already have. My advice? Switch with some fresh hardware. Buy a GOOD machine that is known to have good support. Buy GOOD peripherals. With both, make sure you're buying stuff that actually works on its own, and doesn't require software magic in Windows. You're going to have to research a little, and probably spend a little more than you normally would, but Microsoft has made this situation the way it is. If you really want to escape their gravity well, you're probably going to have to do more than just switch your OS.
I also tried to stay away from "winmodems", but even in 2022 I have hardware issues on Linux, on a boring business-class HP desktop(!), the very thing people say never has any issues under Linux... lol... I tracked it down to the Intel driver for ACPI or something breaking sleep/wakeup. It's a kernel issue so I guess I'll just have to wait 5 years for someone to fix it.
To be fair, I would never consider "boring, business-class" desktops to be a viable Linux machine. Machines designed for bulk sales to boring businesses are exactly the bargain-basement, Windows-subsidized pieces of kit I was saying should be avoided, regardless of "people say never has any issues."
I find it totally incomprehensible how anyone could possibly still use Windows seriously as a developer/hacker/programmer/interested in computing.
Installing software in Windows is insane, relies on you to blindly trust an exe, non reproducible, and with no way to automate anything.
Don't conflate problems with your proprietary software and Linux. Shockingly you may have to adapt and learn something new, or find something equivalent.
Don't conflate weird hardware issue as a fault with Linux for not supporting it. Blame the manufacturer for doing something esoteric.
Not to mention all the blatantly user hostile features in Win 10/11, inconsistencies (O(10) ways to decorate a window??), lack of coherent design. I personally do not trust Microsoft at all.
All these pro Windows comments with minor substantiation seem bizarre.
Installing software in Windows is insane, relies on you to blindly trust an exe, non reproducible, and with no way to automate anything.
Don't conflate problems with your proprietary software and Linux. Shockingly you may have to adapt and learn something new, or find something equivalent.
Don't conflate weird hardware issue as a fault with Linux for not supporting it. Blame the manufacturer for doing something esoteric.
Not to mention all the blatantly user hostile features in Win 10/11, inconsistencies (O(10) ways to decorate a window??), lack of coherent design. I personally do not trust Microsoft at all.
All these pro Windows comments with minor substantiation seem bizarre.
i was similarly perplexed but upon reflection i may understand it. windows kept me at the level of "power user," and i suspect it lulls many into that complacency.
sure i wrote a few windows programs, debugged a few i hadn't written, and i ran some pretty niche tools, but i wasn't truly hacking on my system. most of it was off limits anyway, but more importantly i had stopped learning because i was a power user with niche tools and that felt like plenty.
with linux i can patch software to satisfy whims and have it cooperating with the package management ecosystem in minutes. suppose i want to do something simple, like suppress an annoying error message i don't care about. i expect that downloading the source code, grepping for the error, removing it, compiling, packaging, and installing will take me something like 3 minutes of effort.
seriously. these power users don't know what they're missing.
sure i wrote a few windows programs, debugged a few i hadn't written, and i ran some pretty niche tools, but i wasn't truly hacking on my system. most of it was off limits anyway, but more importantly i had stopped learning because i was a power user with niche tools and that felt like plenty.
with linux i can patch software to satisfy whims and have it cooperating with the package management ecosystem in minutes. suppose i want to do something simple, like suppress an annoying error message i don't care about. i expect that downloading the source code, grepping for the error, removing it, compiling, packaging, and installing will take me something like 3 minutes of effort.
seriously. these power users don't know what they're missing.
> with no way to automate anything
Most things in Windows can be automated with PowerShell, application installs are usually just a silent install switch away.
Most things in Windows can be automated with PowerShell, application installs are usually just a silent install switch away.
> I find it totally incomprehensible
Happy to help
> Installing software in Windows is insane, relies on you to blindly trust an exe, non reproducible, and with no way to automate anything
These three points are wrong, but I understand your confusion. You don't blindly trust an exe, you download it via https from the official website. The installs are "reproducible" to a point that 99% of users care about. You can automate installations for popular software quite easily.
> Don't conflate problems with your proprietary software and Linux. Shockingly you may have to adapt and learn something new, or find something equivalent.
"Conflation" is the wrong word there. But regardless, ironically you're conflating "not knowing" new software and complaining about bugs in new software. You seem to be saying that no one should do either, simply because both are a case of "not knowing". It's very popular to dismiss bugs in Linux software as someone "not knowing" how to use it, but it's lazy thinking.
> Don't conflate weird hardware issue as a fault with Linux for not supporting it. Blame the manufacturer for doing something esoteric.
That's wrong. On what basis do you say that all hardware issues on Linux are the result of the manufacturer doing "something esoteric"? In reality, having looked into it myself, it's very possible to hold Linux partly at fault for ALL hardware issues. Why? Because you may not know this but on Linux, unlike Windows, all drivers effectively must be approved and included in the kernel source code by L. Torvalds himself. That sets an incredibly high bar for driver availability, and causes Linux to lag behind other OSs in terms of driver support. Bet you also didn't know that hardware manufacturers need to retest their driver after every kernel update, because the kernel team often breaks things, and if the manufacturer doesn't keep on top of their driver code, it'll fall into disrepair. (Meanwhile on Windows your Windows vista drivers from 2007 will work in Windows 11(!)
> Not to mention all the blatantly user hostile features in Win 10/11
Most people do not experience features in Windows 10/11 that they consider harmful. You may experience them as harmful. You may see others experiencing them and consider them harmful. But most people who experience them do not find them harmful. Got it?
> inconsistencies (O(10) ways to decorate a window??)
Most people don't care about that, believe it or not (most people are smart enough to not fall off their chair and explode when they encounter a strangely-styled window border)
> I personally do not trust Microsoft at all.
Why do I get the feeing most posts like this could be summarized thusly...
Happy to help
> Installing software in Windows is insane, relies on you to blindly trust an exe, non reproducible, and with no way to automate anything
These three points are wrong, but I understand your confusion. You don't blindly trust an exe, you download it via https from the official website. The installs are "reproducible" to a point that 99% of users care about. You can automate installations for popular software quite easily.
> Don't conflate problems with your proprietary software and Linux. Shockingly you may have to adapt and learn something new, or find something equivalent.
"Conflation" is the wrong word there. But regardless, ironically you're conflating "not knowing" new software and complaining about bugs in new software. You seem to be saying that no one should do either, simply because both are a case of "not knowing". It's very popular to dismiss bugs in Linux software as someone "not knowing" how to use it, but it's lazy thinking.
> Don't conflate weird hardware issue as a fault with Linux for not supporting it. Blame the manufacturer for doing something esoteric.
That's wrong. On what basis do you say that all hardware issues on Linux are the result of the manufacturer doing "something esoteric"? In reality, having looked into it myself, it's very possible to hold Linux partly at fault for ALL hardware issues. Why? Because you may not know this but on Linux, unlike Windows, all drivers effectively must be approved and included in the kernel source code by L. Torvalds himself. That sets an incredibly high bar for driver availability, and causes Linux to lag behind other OSs in terms of driver support. Bet you also didn't know that hardware manufacturers need to retest their driver after every kernel update, because the kernel team often breaks things, and if the manufacturer doesn't keep on top of their driver code, it'll fall into disrepair. (Meanwhile on Windows your Windows vista drivers from 2007 will work in Windows 11(!)
> Not to mention all the blatantly user hostile features in Win 10/11
Most people do not experience features in Windows 10/11 that they consider harmful. You may experience them as harmful. You may see others experiencing them and consider them harmful. But most people who experience them do not find them harmful. Got it?
> inconsistencies (O(10) ways to decorate a window??)
Most people don't care about that, believe it or not (most people are smart enough to not fall off their chair and explode when they encounter a strangely-styled window border)
> I personally do not trust Microsoft at all.
Why do I get the feeing most posts like this could be summarized thusly...
>The installs are "reproducible" to a point that 99% of users care about
I would hardly call click an pray, and then having to redo this every time you want to set up a fresh install reproducible or deterministic. My standard for that is using Nix.
>if the manufacturer doesn't keep on top of their driver code, it'll fall into disrepair
Imagine actually having to care about the products you release.
>Most people do not experience features in Windows 10/11 that they consider harmful.
I think any sane person should consider advertisements in their file explorer harmful.
For a person using their computer for basic tasks, office work, some productivity I'd point them to a Mac. Otherwise if you are a developer I'd still recommend Mac or make the switch to Linux. Windows is just too far gone. Just because a lot of people don't know any better, doesn't mean they would still be okay with the current status quo, if they knew what the alternatives are. It's like driving a car. American cities seem like some hellish dystopian carscape, and everyone is trapped in the system, but they perpetuate it.
I would hardly call click an pray, and then having to redo this every time you want to set up a fresh install reproducible or deterministic. My standard for that is using Nix.
>if the manufacturer doesn't keep on top of their driver code, it'll fall into disrepair
Imagine actually having to care about the products you release.
>Most people do not experience features in Windows 10/11 that they consider harmful.
I think any sane person should consider advertisements in their file explorer harmful.
For a person using their computer for basic tasks, office work, some productivity I'd point them to a Mac. Otherwise if you are a developer I'd still recommend Mac or make the switch to Linux. Windows is just too far gone. Just because a lot of people don't know any better, doesn't mean they would still be okay with the current status quo, if they knew what the alternatives are. It's like driving a car. American cities seem like some hellish dystopian carscape, and everyone is trapped in the system, but they perpetuate it.
> I would hardly call click an pray, and then having to redo this every time you want to set up a fresh install reproducible or deterministic. My standard for that is using Nix.
Your standard is overengineered and a waste of time. No one needs that. IT is not paid a million dollars per year, we can spare a few man-hours.
> Imagine actually having to care about the products you release.
Actually, imagine NOT having to care because Windows exists and will allow you to ship one driver and it'll work forever. Wouldn't that be nice? Think of the cost savings. Think of the driver stability. Stop imagining, it's reality.
> I think any sane person should consider advertisements in their file explorer harmful.
Well you thought wrong, most people don't care or are very mildly annoyed/bemused. If you only read HN and TheRegister, you might come away thinking that everyone is suffering life-altering psychological trauma from that Candy Crush ad, but it's simply not a major issue.
Your standard is overengineered and a waste of time. No one needs that. IT is not paid a million dollars per year, we can spare a few man-hours.
> Imagine actually having to care about the products you release.
Actually, imagine NOT having to care because Windows exists and will allow you to ship one driver and it'll work forever. Wouldn't that be nice? Think of the cost savings. Think of the driver stability. Stop imagining, it's reality.
> I think any sane person should consider advertisements in their file explorer harmful.
Well you thought wrong, most people don't care or are very mildly annoyed/bemused. If you only read HN and TheRegister, you might come away thinking that everyone is suffering life-altering psychological trauma from that Candy Crush ad, but it's simply not a major issue.
> I find it totally incomprehensible how anyone could possibly still use Windows seriously as a developer/hacker/programmer/interested in computing.
Spoken like a true developer. I have one nit: I don't think anyone does use Windows for hacking. It's too locked down, too resource hungry, utterly opaque and the number of platforms it runs on can be counted on one hand. No one in their right mind would put Windows on a RPi.
I'm not sure what Windows is now. It's not a particularly reliable, robust, light, secure or stable platform for the masses to run apps and games on. iOS, Android (and WinPhone in its day) do a far better job. It's far too heavy, expensive and inflexible to use as a server platform. That leaves one niche: the company wide computer system for companies that can't build their own. Windows is the king of the "company owned, controlled and monitored computer". Admittedly it's a huge market, and they own it. If there are competitors that aren't selling "rent all your computing resources on our cloud infrastructure", I can't see them. And the companies that have the wherewithal to build their own corporate computing structure are few and far between: Google, Facebook, Amazon and the like. You won't find the vast bulk of normal businesses such as Bridgestone, local hospitals or banks in that list.
But equally, that market is ripe for the plucking. Microsoft does an appallingly bad job at it. To wit: most of the ransomware, and company owning (like Sony) are in fact failures in the security model Microsoft has sold these companies. If you look at the model Microsoft is peddling nowadays, it's almost the reverse of the best model we've developed so far, trustless. It's the "corporate locked down VPN" style, based on InTune.
And it's not getting better. Microsoft's software engineering processes have been getting worse, as in the poor API documentation now regularly commented on here, the testing rates have dropped and the effect is noticeable, Windows just keep getting slower and bigger. (Admittedly many Linux distro's are also getting bigger and slower, but Linux has distro's pulling in both directions: feature rich but big and tiny but few features. Users: take your pick. Windows is headed in one direction only.)
To add insult to injury, the companies are now being forced to rent computing resources from Microsoft's cloud for things like SSO (Azure AD), one drive storage, and even device control (InTune is cloud based). So Microsoft's corporate customers are being dragged toward a Google cloud like model where they rent every CPU cycle and byte of storage anyway.
I thought Kim Jong-un's take down and complete ownership of Sony would be enough to trigger change away from the Microsoft model. Clearly it wasn't. Now I'm not sure what it will take.
Spoken like a true developer. I have one nit: I don't think anyone does use Windows for hacking. It's too locked down, too resource hungry, utterly opaque and the number of platforms it runs on can be counted on one hand. No one in their right mind would put Windows on a RPi.
I'm not sure what Windows is now. It's not a particularly reliable, robust, light, secure or stable platform for the masses to run apps and games on. iOS, Android (and WinPhone in its day) do a far better job. It's far too heavy, expensive and inflexible to use as a server platform. That leaves one niche: the company wide computer system for companies that can't build their own. Windows is the king of the "company owned, controlled and monitored computer". Admittedly it's a huge market, and they own it. If there are competitors that aren't selling "rent all your computing resources on our cloud infrastructure", I can't see them. And the companies that have the wherewithal to build their own corporate computing structure are few and far between: Google, Facebook, Amazon and the like. You won't find the vast bulk of normal businesses such as Bridgestone, local hospitals or banks in that list.
But equally, that market is ripe for the plucking. Microsoft does an appallingly bad job at it. To wit: most of the ransomware, and company owning (like Sony) are in fact failures in the security model Microsoft has sold these companies. If you look at the model Microsoft is peddling nowadays, it's almost the reverse of the best model we've developed so far, trustless. It's the "corporate locked down VPN" style, based on InTune.
And it's not getting better. Microsoft's software engineering processes have been getting worse, as in the poor API documentation now regularly commented on here, the testing rates have dropped and the effect is noticeable, Windows just keep getting slower and bigger. (Admittedly many Linux distro's are also getting bigger and slower, but Linux has distro's pulling in both directions: feature rich but big and tiny but few features. Users: take your pick. Windows is headed in one direction only.)
To add insult to injury, the companies are now being forced to rent computing resources from Microsoft's cloud for things like SSO (Azure AD), one drive storage, and even device control (InTune is cloud based). So Microsoft's corporate customers are being dragged toward a Google cloud like model where they rent every CPU cycle and byte of storage anyway.
I thought Kim Jong-un's take down and complete ownership of Sony would be enough to trigger change away from the Microsoft model. Clearly it wasn't. Now I'm not sure what it will take.
My own personal history:
- first machine a dismissed SGI O₂ so Irix/CDE I do not remember witch version
- after few year my first laptop with Windows XP (newly released): I was shocked how limited and bad it is.
- quickly turn to GNU/Linux following some family friend / teachers suggestion, unsatisfied, they were still crap compared to Irix to my eyes
- turn to FreeBSD, hw issues but not much (it was the time from linux 2.4-2.6 passage) I start to breathe a bit
- OpenSolaris then another breathe
- Back to FreeBSD after it's death but too many hw issues, so back again to GNU/Linux, now still on it with NixOS
That short history to state a thing: hw got more and more powerful but also crappy and software keep turning to crap. I think that anti-customer age start right after Xerox/LispM era, even SGI was bad respect of them, they have tried "the unix way" and quickly touch it's limits badly correcting them introducing anti-unix patterns in Unix with GUIs.
In that context my desktop environment is Emacs (EXWM) and while buggy and limited in bootloader OS terms I do not really know how people can keep using "modern GUI", not only Windows since their absurd limits and limitations. The main point is that a desktop must be a flexible tool for the human user, not an endpoint, not a dumb terminal, not a set of know pre-determined by someone else. The rest is noise.
- first machine a dismissed SGI O₂ so Irix/CDE I do not remember witch version
- after few year my first laptop with Windows XP (newly released): I was shocked how limited and bad it is.
- quickly turn to GNU/Linux following some family friend / teachers suggestion, unsatisfied, they were still crap compared to Irix to my eyes
- turn to FreeBSD, hw issues but not much (it was the time from linux 2.4-2.6 passage) I start to breathe a bit
- OpenSolaris then another breathe
- Back to FreeBSD after it's death but too many hw issues, so back again to GNU/Linux, now still on it with NixOS
That short history to state a thing: hw got more and more powerful but also crappy and software keep turning to crap. I think that anti-customer age start right after Xerox/LispM era, even SGI was bad respect of them, they have tried "the unix way" and quickly touch it's limits badly correcting them introducing anti-unix patterns in Unix with GUIs.
In that context my desktop environment is Emacs (EXWM) and while buggy and limited in bootloader OS terms I do not really know how people can keep using "modern GUI", not only Windows since their absurd limits and limitations. The main point is that a desktop must be a flexible tool for the human user, not an endpoint, not a dumb terminal, not a set of know pre-determined by someone else. The rest is noise.
I have a 4k monitor and at first bumped my head into many walls because of the excruciating bad or missing font size/selection support. Tried literally all the desktops and file managers.
Ended with Mate/Xfe, both with amazing and consistent font support. Redshift for time dependent colour temperature is also worth mentioning.
Ended with Mate/Xfe, both with amazing and consistent font support. Redshift for time dependent colour temperature is also worth mentioning.
Screen size?
For anyone else in the "thinking about it" to "preparing for it" stage of the switch, I've been getting myself ready by switching to cross-platform software one piece at a time while still daily driving a Windows machine.
In past failed attempts to switch it just was too jarring for everything to be different all at once. But now that I've already replaced all the Windows exclusive software in my life, I expect that next time I try full-timing on Linux again it will feel more like visiting the next town over than it will visiting a foreign country.
In past failed attempts to switch it just was too jarring for everything to be different all at once. But now that I've already replaced all the Windows exclusive software in my life, I expect that next time I try full-timing on Linux again it will feel more like visiting the next town over than it will visiting a foreign country.
Fair comments but as someone who has tried many times to adopt Linux, I can honestly state that nothing in Windows comes close to the user-hostile UX approach in Linux.
For example, Radarr is an extremely popular tool for managing movies. It connects to usenet and torrent clients, as well as indexers and movie databases. It makes maintaining a home movie collection seamless. Radarr is not in major package managers, and requires the CLI for install (https://wiki.servarr.com/radarr/installation#linux). In Windows, I double click an .exe. In Linux I have to follow a reasonably complicated and time consuming installation process, full of opportunities to misconfigure the install. Radarr isn't a super hardcore 1337 program. It's a very common application aimed at everyone who runs Plex. Until a distro has a .exe equivalent for all applications like this, it's just not going to be a competitor to Windows, for users who need more than just a web browser, and those who are not IT administrators.
Bottom line: make it so users never ever, for any reason ever, need to use the CLI. Until then, most of us will be sticking with Windows.
For example, Radarr is an extremely popular tool for managing movies. It connects to usenet and torrent clients, as well as indexers and movie databases. It makes maintaining a home movie collection seamless. Radarr is not in major package managers, and requires the CLI for install (https://wiki.servarr.com/radarr/installation#linux). In Windows, I double click an .exe. In Linux I have to follow a reasonably complicated and time consuming installation process, full of opportunities to misconfigure the install. Radarr isn't a super hardcore 1337 program. It's a very common application aimed at everyone who runs Plex. Until a distro has a .exe equivalent for all applications like this, it's just not going to be a competitor to Windows, for users who need more than just a web browser, and those who are not IT administrators.
Bottom line: make it so users never ever, for any reason ever, need to use the CLI. Until then, most of us will be sticking with Windows.
> Radarr is not in major package managers, and requires the CLI for install (https://wiki.servarr.com/radarr/installation#linux). In Windows, I double click an .exe. In Linux I have to follow a reasonably complicated and time consuming installation process, full of opportunities to misconfigure the install.
Why are directing this complaint against Linux and not Radarr? They could choose to package it for various Linux distributions if they do wish.
Why are directing this complaint against Linux and not Radarr? They could choose to package it for various Linux distributions if they do wish.
Or they could just provide an AppImage. It would be great if major distros added out-of-the box support for flatpaks and appimages. This would finally put an end to ISV saying that it is hard to package/distribute software for linux.
And by "out-of-the box support for flatpaks and appimages" I mean: run it inside a sandbox! If I didn't care about stability and security, I'd use windows.
And by "out-of-the box support for flatpaks and appimages" I mean: run it inside a sandbox! If I didn't care about stability and security, I'd use windows.
There are many potential solutions, but the point is that Radarr is the one choosing not to make installation easier. It isn’t “Linux”.
I've looked into stuff like this and often it turns out the reason for a lack of [obvious solution] is:
1: Essential libraries fail
2: Documentation missing needed details
3: hostility to inquiry about problems from community
And on. The Linux community is so much better than it was when I first tried it, but the old guard (and new guard that likes gatekeeping) is still there causing a ruckus and getting in the way of people trying to advance Linux.
1: Essential libraries fail
2: Documentation missing needed details
3: hostility to inquiry about problems from community
And on. The Linux community is so much better than it was when I first tried it, but the old guard (and new guard that likes gatekeeping) is still there causing a ruckus and getting in the way of people trying to advance Linux.
>Why are directing this complaint against Linux and not Radarr? They could choose to package it for various Linux distributions if they do wish.
You misunderstand my complaint. I am not blaming anyone. I am explaining why the user experience is bad. This is a common retort in the Linux community: "but they are to blame, not me!" As an end user, I don't care who is to blame. I just care that Linux is harder to use.
You misunderstand my complaint. I am not blaming anyone. I am explaining why the user experience is bad. This is a common retort in the Linux community: "but they are to blame, not me!" As an end user, I don't care who is to blame. I just care that Linux is harder to use.
Well hopefully Radarr takes note and improves their users' experience when running on Linux. But in the end it's up to Radarr. Not all software is easily-installable on Windows. Not all software is easily-installable on Macos. Not all software is easy installable on various Linux distributions. I guess until Radarr decides to provide a better user experience for users of Linux, those users will either have to switch operating systems or deal with the difficulties themselves.
> For example, Radarr is an extremely popular tool for managing movies
Radarr definitely doesn't represent the status of Linux projects packaging; not providing any package is uncommon.
The vast majority of open source projects provide repositories, application packages, binaries (if one wants the latest-and-greatest version; the base repositories of the most common distros typically have almost anything under the sun).
As a matter of fact, Radarr's twin, Sonarr, provides repositories (https://sonarr.tv/#downloads-v3-linux), and snaps (e.g. https://snapcraft.io/install/sonarr/debian).
Radarr definitely doesn't represent the status of Linux projects packaging; not providing any package is uncommon.
The vast majority of open source projects provide repositories, application packages, binaries (if one wants the latest-and-greatest version; the base repositories of the most common distros typically have almost anything under the sun).
As a matter of fact, Radarr's twin, Sonarr, provides repositories (https://sonarr.tv/#downloads-v3-linux), and snaps (e.g. https://snapcraft.io/install/sonarr/debian).
"The vast majority" of applications having packages doesn't satisfy my requirement: never ever, for any reason *ever*, having to use the CLI. The requirement is clear, unambiguous, and shared by the vast majority of PC users.
For the record, at least in my case, it's certainly not the "vast majority" of applications. The following applications don't have easy to install packages. Even when there is, as in the case of Calibre-Web, Transmission, and NZBGet, they often require CLI configuration and/or intervention.
* Readarr
* Openbooks
* PhotoPrism
* Prowlarr
* Jackett
* FlareSolverr
And these are just the applications I could spot in five minutes.
For the record, at least in my case, it's certainly not the "vast majority" of applications. The following applications don't have easy to install packages. Even when there is, as in the case of Calibre-Web, Transmission, and NZBGet, they often require CLI configuration and/or intervention.
* Readarr
* Openbooks
* PhotoPrism
* Prowlarr
* Jackett
* FlareSolverr
And these are just the applications I could spot in five minutes.
By "vast majority" I mean that the standard repositories (which optionally includes extra repositories, like the Canonical Partner one) includes hundreds of thousands of programs, and GUIs are provided by the distro (e.g. the former Ubuntu Software Center).
I've checked several of the programs you've provided, and here's a report:
- Readarr: has docker image(s) in Docker Hub
- PhotoPrism: has docker image(s) in Docker Hub
- Prowlarr: has docker image(s) in Docker Hub
- Openbooks: has docker image(s) in Docker Hub
- Jackett: has native linux binary in the official Github releases
- FlareSolverr: has native linux binary in the official Github releases
- Transmission: it's commonly provided in the Linux distro repositories
Those who refuse to do such a minimal search and/or better look the Github releases page, they definitely deserve to stay on Windows, rather than spreading misinformation.
If a program doesn't to have a package for a given platform (no doubt about those cases), it's a developer's resources problem (and essentially, an O/S popularity one). It'd be ridiculous to say that having to manually install a certain program on Mac is inherent in Mac itself.
I've checked several of the programs you've provided, and here's a report:
- Readarr: has docker image(s) in Docker Hub
- PhotoPrism: has docker image(s) in Docker Hub
- Prowlarr: has docker image(s) in Docker Hub
- Openbooks: has docker image(s) in Docker Hub
- Jackett: has native linux binary in the official Github releases
- FlareSolverr: has native linux binary in the official Github releases
- Transmission: it's commonly provided in the Linux distro repositories
Those who refuse to do such a minimal search and/or better look the Github releases page, they definitely deserve to stay on Windows, rather than spreading misinformation.
If a program doesn't to have a package for a given platform (no doubt about those cases), it's a developer's resources problem (and essentially, an O/S popularity one). It'd be ridiculous to say that having to manually install a certain program on Mac is inherent in Mac itself.
Pray tell, what kind of cli configuration/intervention would be required for transmission?
You should just be able to install transmission-gtk and be off.
You should just be able to install transmission-gtk and be off.
Radarr sounds like the type of software that no vendor would accept in their app store. Why would you expect it to be available through a Linux package manager?
As for the convoluted installation process under Linux, that is on the developer. They can provide packages directly, create a distribution agnostic application, or provide an installer. All of these approaches are in common use under Linux. None of them require the use of the command line. It is also worth noting that the second option is similar to how Mac applications are distributed while the third option is how Windows applications are distributed. The fact that Radarr's developers decided to do something else, something that required the command line, says more about them than it does about Linux.
With respect to user-hostile US approaches, please don't get me started. Windows itself is far from perfect in this respect.
As for the convoluted installation process under Linux, that is on the developer. They can provide packages directly, create a distribution agnostic application, or provide an installer. All of these approaches are in common use under Linux. None of them require the use of the command line. It is also worth noting that the second option is similar to how Mac applications are distributed while the third option is how Windows applications are distributed. The fact that Radarr's developers decided to do something else, something that required the command line, says more about them than it does about Linux.
With respect to user-hostile US approaches, please don't get me started. Windows itself is far from perfect in this respect.
>Radarr sounds like the type of software that no vendor would accept in their app store. Why would you expect it to be available through a Linux package manager?
I don't. I expect it and many other applications to remain difficult to install, so I expect most users to remain on PC. I am not levelling blame on anyone or anything. I am simply explaining how the user experience is hostile in Linux.
I don't. I expect it and many other applications to remain difficult to install, so I expect most users to remain on PC. I am not levelling blame on anyone or anything. I am simply explaining how the user experience is hostile in Linux.
I am going to make a claim that may sound a bit odd to you since it does not reflect your experiences: installing, updating, and removing software is much more user friendly under Linux.
Almost every Linux program I use is available through a package manager. Installing, updating, and removing the software can be done through a graphical package manager that resembles the Windows Store. In an apples-to-apples comparison, I would claim the graphical package manager is more user friendly since it is focuses upon managing software rather than marketing software, but I can appreciate that opinions will differ.
In the case of Linux, most software is available through the package manager. In the case of Windows, a significant portion of software has to be obtained separately. The typical case involves finding the vendor website, downloading the software, then running a multi-step installer. If the software doesn't seek out and install its own updates, the process of updating software is the same. Removal of the software is usually similar to using a package manager under Linux, but there are cases where dependencies must be sought out and removed manually (e.g. Visual Studio). Modern Linux package managers handle dependency removal automatically.
Then there are the still relatively common outliers. Many Windows programs are distributed as zipped files that must be installed manually. Usually this is a case of extracting the files, yet you have to read the instructions to be sure. There are also going to be the uncommon outliers, with installation processes that resemble that of Radarr. (It happens, though I have only seen it with development tools.)
In my experience, the software management frustrations under Linux come from a limited number of outliers. Ironically, those outliers all use installers that resemble their Windows counterparts.
Almost every Linux program I use is available through a package manager. Installing, updating, and removing the software can be done through a graphical package manager that resembles the Windows Store. In an apples-to-apples comparison, I would claim the graphical package manager is more user friendly since it is focuses upon managing software rather than marketing software, but I can appreciate that opinions will differ.
In the case of Linux, most software is available through the package manager. In the case of Windows, a significant portion of software has to be obtained separately. The typical case involves finding the vendor website, downloading the software, then running a multi-step installer. If the software doesn't seek out and install its own updates, the process of updating software is the same. Removal of the software is usually similar to using a package manager under Linux, but there are cases where dependencies must be sought out and removed manually (e.g. Visual Studio). Modern Linux package managers handle dependency removal automatically.
Then there are the still relatively common outliers. Many Windows programs are distributed as zipped files that must be installed manually. Usually this is a case of extracting the files, yet you have to read the instructions to be sure. There are also going to be the uncommon outliers, with installation processes that resemble that of Radarr. (It happens, though I have only seen it with development tools.)
In my experience, the software management frustrations under Linux come from a limited number of outliers. Ironically, those outliers all use installers that resemble their Windows counterparts.
So... what I say... if you want to use Linux, go ahead. But, know WHAT and WHY you are doing this. If you simply say "it's not Windows" -- not good enough. Yes, Linux is not Windows. It is ALSO not a Mac OS/X. So, why are you attempting, "many times" to adopt Linux? I honestly have no idea what "Radarr" is, or why on earth I would want it. If I did care, I would have a reason to use Windows. As it is, I don't. My use case is a good and reliable Posix platform, with good tooling. That is provided by Linux -- indeed, I use Fedora. Been that way for over 25 years. I need Java, but not .NET. My use cases... not yours.
I don't care about "package managers" Usenet is web for me (google groups), CLI is not an issue; indeed I prefer it, given my history. I find Windows UX/UI to be extremely difficult. I suggest that you do NOT consider Linux to be a competitor to Windows. It really isn't. Windows had been forced to run Linux. In full compatibility. This is supported by Microsoft -- unlike Wine is is somewhat there. If I needed Windows, I would run Windows, and use WSL.
The odd thing here is that Windows "blinked first". The existence of WSL means Linux has won. If I sent you a Linux binary, I would tell you to install WSL and then just run it. I can also send you JVM stuff to run. .NET? Haven't needed to bother with it.
Have I tried many times to adopt Windows? Frankly, no. If it doesn't work with Fedora, I generally just don't care, and move on.
FredW
I don't care about "package managers" Usenet is web for me (google groups), CLI is not an issue; indeed I prefer it, given my history. I find Windows UX/UI to be extremely difficult. I suggest that you do NOT consider Linux to be a competitor to Windows. It really isn't. Windows had been forced to run Linux. In full compatibility. This is supported by Microsoft -- unlike Wine is is somewhat there. If I needed Windows, I would run Windows, and use WSL.
The odd thing here is that Windows "blinked first". The existence of WSL means Linux has won. If I sent you a Linux binary, I would tell you to install WSL and then just run it. I can also send you JVM stuff to run. .NET? Haven't needed to bother with it.
Have I tried many times to adopt Windows? Frankly, no. If it doesn't work with Fedora, I generally just don't care, and move on.
FredW
Just to add a slight counter to this, for some people Linux not being windows is enough. Many people don't remember this, but Microsoft showed us all what they are in the 90s.
Is servarr in the windows store? If not, it might as well not exist.
Just because users have been trained to download .exe's from random, unvetted websites that does not make it any less insane. See android, see iOS (and by now also windows) who all agree how insane that is.
Just because users have been trained to download .exe's from random, unvetted websites that does not make it any less insane. See android, see iOS (and by now also windows) who all agree how insane that is.
You call easy installation of applications insane. I call convoluted and technically difficult installation insane. I represent the vast majority of PC users, and I don't think you'll ever convince us that a 10 step CLI process to install an application is a good thing.
> Banana monkey dishwasher.
I said windows store is easy, app store is easy, repos are easy. I don't know how you got "10 step CLI process to install" from that and if you just make up random nonsense this "conversation" is worthless.
I said windows store is easy, app store is easy, repos are easy. I don't know how you got "10 step CLI process to install" from that and if you just make up random nonsense this "conversation" is worthless.
Most non-packaged apps are just `./configure && make install` sometimes `cmake . && make install` It's hardly one step much less 10. If you know so little about some random software you found that you can't compile it I'm not sure installing it is a good idea.
If you use an Arch-based distro, it's available in the Arch User Repository (AUR) [1]. With Aura [2], installation is as simple as:
[1] - https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/radarr
[2] - https://github.com/fosskers/aura
aura -A radarr
[1] - https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/radarr
[2] - https://github.com/fosskers/aura
Manjaro comes with a GUI for Pacman and after enabling AUR (and clicking the "yes I know this will probably break my machine" button) it simply shows up in the list of installable software.
That said, Radarr, being written in dotnet, should be able to package a single executable you can just click, and that process should be even easier with the upcoming dotnet release.
That said, Radarr, being written in dotnet, should be able to package a single executable you can just click, and that process should be even easier with the upcoming dotnet release.
This is true, although the Windows model of .exe installers , which require admin permissions, isn't even the one to follow. The macOS, and especially the App Store model is far more user friendly.
The non-esoteric distros and GNOME[1] recognize it and ship with a software manager akin to an app store. Those install snaps or flatpaks with one click. That's how you'd install Steam and all of its dependencies like Proton.
The problem is that some software authors, like Radarr's, don't believe in the model.
https://help.gnome.org/misc/release-notes/41.0/figures/softw...
The non-esoteric distros and GNOME[1] recognize it and ship with a software manager akin to an app store. Those install snaps or flatpaks with one click. That's how you'd install Steam and all of its dependencies like Proton.
The problem is that some software authors, like Radarr's, don't believe in the model.
https://help.gnome.org/misc/release-notes/41.0/figures/softw...
I am fully onboard with the macOS model.
You highlight why this will forever remain a problem: letting developers choose to provide a user-hostile install method means that some of them will. The solution here is mandating a simple install method, but I don't think enough distros would get on board with that. Most Linux developers like things just the way they are.
You highlight why this will forever remain a problem: letting developers choose to provide a user-hostile install method means that some of them will. The solution here is mandating a simple install method, but I don't think enough distros would get on board with that. Most Linux developers like things just the way they are.
> The problem is that some software authors, like Radarr's, don't believe in the model.
And I don't really blame them. People love to pimp Flatpak and Snap, but nobody ever likes to talk about the issues that portals cause, the horrible rendering issues it lugs along, the lack of molecularity constantly breaking things on xorg/Wayland, the DBUS issues, the extremely esoteric configuration options, the auto-updating (!!!) and so on and so forth.
Apple makes this work because they have hundreds of billions of dollars they can divert to R&D. Linux gets the short end of the stick because it's a game of chicken-and-egg: none of the developers want to work on Flatpak because none of the packagers want to provide packages for it because Flatpak has hundreds of outstanding bugs and an entire community of people like me who remember being promised bigger and better things on Linux, only to have them fall through the ground not even halfway into development.
Simplicity is key. Flatpak, Snap, and all of it's ilk are not simple, which is why it's no surprise that their development is lethargic and adoption is, kindly put, sluggish.
And I don't really blame them. People love to pimp Flatpak and Snap, but nobody ever likes to talk about the issues that portals cause, the horrible rendering issues it lugs along, the lack of molecularity constantly breaking things on xorg/Wayland, the DBUS issues, the extremely esoteric configuration options, the auto-updating (!!!) and so on and so forth.
Apple makes this work because they have hundreds of billions of dollars they can divert to R&D. Linux gets the short end of the stick because it's a game of chicken-and-egg: none of the developers want to work on Flatpak because none of the packagers want to provide packages for it because Flatpak has hundreds of outstanding bugs and an entire community of people like me who remember being promised bigger and better things on Linux, only to have them fall through the ground not even halfway into development.
Simplicity is key. Flatpak, Snap, and all of it's ilk are not simple, which is why it's no surprise that their development is lethargic and adoption is, kindly put, sluggish.
> The macOS, and especially the App Store model is far more user friendly.
MacOS and App Store models are the worst, most user hostile way to install anything. I like the .exe model best, it offers most flexibility and freedom to the user.
MacOS and App Store models are the worst, most user hostile way to install anything. I like the .exe model best, it offers most flexibility and freedom to the user.
You consider dragging an .app to /Applications worse than a multi-step .exe installer?
> In Linux I have to follow a reasonably complicated and time consuming installation process,
You don't /have/ to, you choose to. Docker provides a way easier path for all the *arr's.
Not to mention removal is equally easy - with windows can you be SURE all the registry stuff is gone?
You don't /have/ to, you choose to. Docker provides a way easier path for all the *arr's.
Not to mention removal is equally easy - with windows can you be SURE all the registry stuff is gone?
Docker still requires the CLI. Well, unless I install Portainer. Which also requires the CLI.
> Docker still requires the CLI.
Right, and? Not seeing how that is 'reasonably complicated'.
Right, and? Not seeing how that is 'reasonably complicated'.
Linux isn't necessarily for you and that's fine. The Linux community doesn't actually need to change any of this to succeed where it succeeds and that is among CLI-friendly power users and developers.
As to your specific issue, I just use the container image of Radar on my server, which is what most selfhosters should be using, since it's non-polluting to your local system.
As to your specific issue, I just use the container image of Radar on my server, which is what most selfhosters should be using, since it's non-polluting to your local system.
Completely fair. My comment was in context of the article and comments. Many Linux users seem interested in growing Linux market share, or declaring that "this is the year of Linux." It will never be the year of Linux while basic tasks continue to complicated multi-step CLI adventures.
> Bottom line: make it so users never ever, for any reason ever, need to use the CLI.
The more I think about, the more I'm convinced that it's an unconscious choices made by developers to keep away non power users.
The more I think about, the more I'm convinced that it's an unconscious choices made by developers to keep away non power users.
Or maybe they don't want to waste their time for users who can't even be bothered to type a few keys?
GUI is a great concept, but at some point, for more advanced operations, terminal simply makes more sense.
GUI is a great concept, but at some point, for more advanced operations, terminal simply makes more sense.
>The more I think about, the more I'm convinced that it's an unconscious choices made by developers to keep away non power users.
Honestly, I speak with many devs. It's a conscious choice. Gatekeeping in the Linux community is off the charts.
Honestly, I speak with many devs. It's a conscious choice. Gatekeeping in the Linux community is off the charts.
Nah, non-Electron GUI dev is a mess and I don't want to add 100mb to my app. CLIs are easy to write.
Bottom line: You are ranting about a piracy app.
I've been on a similar journey and have largely ended up in the same sort of place - "Well, everything else has gone to hell in a handbasket, so I suppose I'll use the only things left I don't actively object to." And that list is getting smaller.
You could mostly call me a "Unix Greybeard" at this point - I grew up with Windows, learned the joys of Unix on IRIX in the early 2000s, and never really went back. Linux is for servers and dev work desktops, but for about 18 years I'd been using OS X as a daily driver desktop. It really does "just work" for an awful lot of values of work, and it interfaces very nicely with Linux systems and has done so for a long while. With Microsoft's WSL and actually shipping a bloody SSH client now, Windows interfaces better, but it's a bit too little, too late.
I never really objected to Windows, just never had much of a use case for it - but, despite that, I typically had a Windows desktop of some variety or another laying around for various purposes, and a Windows VM or three for [whatever] - currently I've got a Win10 VM that mostly runs UPS WorldShip (I used to ship a lot of hazmat, and I actually like the program for my shipping needs).
Windows 10 has gotten "progressively more annoying" about online accounts. You used to be able to just say "No, thank you, I want a local account only." Then the options got more hidden, and then the option disappeared unless you literally don't have a network connection when you're installing it, and if you have a local account it starts nagging you more and more to "sign in with Microsoft!" Yes, you can turn it off, but the default is to badger the user. I don't want an online account for my local operating systems, thank you very much. Never have, never will.
Windows 11, though, has turned into a "Nope, never..." option for me. Maybe in a VM if I really need to. The two major things that really upset me are the transition to a "You can't have a local account only on Win11 Home," and the bug in the beta in which a bad advertising JSON blob (from Microsoft!) absolutely hosed Explorer, rendering the OS unusable. There is no computing world I'm OK with in which basic OS operation and functionality should be rendered unusable by bad data from the internet, and that tells me where the priorities for Microsoft are: Tightly integrated advertising. With the "We must know your email address to use our OS," there's almost certainly some variety of behavioral analysis going on that they can use to profit on the backend from the "free" OS. You're the source of raw materials, and all... so Windows 11 is out.
Apple was going well, and I really appreciated their privacy stance... and then they seem to have badly miscalculated and blown most of that trust, in my book, with the on-device, anti-user CSAM scanning that was a beautiful, ivory tower, academic exercise in novel crypto, that seems to have fallen apart literally as soon as people got their hands on the concept to play with. The photo hashing they're using couldn't withstand any basic adversarial attacks (either in terms of mutating images to avoid being detected, or in terms of deliberate image collisions), and they seem to have been caught dazed and confused in how their responses to concerns about it were almost "Oh, yeah, uh... yeah, we're definitely defending against that concern with this thing we just thought of at 3AM." The later documents and FAQs read like the output of someone operating on no sleep for a couple weeks, and some of their internal email quotes regarding the "screeching minority" didn't exactly go over very well either.
Yes, I know they've "delayed" it, but they've not said "We're sorry, that was a terrible idea, and we're not going to do that or anything like it" either, so... Apple's out. Sad, really, the M1 Mac Mini I bought when it was announced is, by far, the best computer I've used across a huge variety of metrics, and the M1 Mac Pros are quite literally exactly what I want in a laptop. Oh well. I'll find alternatives.
If I'm going to continue using modern computing (which, unfortunately, isn't quite as optional as I'd really prefer in the modern world), that leaves me staring down the Linux path, and so I've gone that way. Linux on the desktop isn't perfect, but neither is it nearly as painful as it used to be. It does most of the stuff I care about - and my attitude has changed around to, "If I can't do it on Linux, then I suppose it's not something I should particularly care about doing." I'm at a point in my life where that's entirely viable for me, so it's the route I've gone.
... and then for added pain, because I'm apparently allergic to working computers at this point, I've gotten pretty well upset with Intel over the last few years with "Yet Another Microarchitectural Vulnerability" (and then the endless variations on a theme that they didn't patch against when they fixed the first set - come on, if the academics understand your processors better than the people in charge of fixing them, that's a problem too). AMD is an option, but as ARM has been coming up the ladder quickly in performance, I've set out to try and use as much ARM as I can. So, my primary laptop, for when I use it, is a PineBook Pro, I've got an ODroid N2+ and RasPi4 running as office desktops (and am uncomfortably excited about the upcoming Rock5 with NVMe and 16GB RAM), etc. I still have some x86 in my life for certain things, but I'm trying very hard to reduce that over time.
While I'm at it, I've gone back to a flip phone, and I don't even bother bringing that with me half the time I go out anymore.
I won't say I always like the corners I've painted myself into, but I'm at least comfortable with where I am. I'm not having to say, "This thing Company X is doing is horrible... but, I mean, what am I gonna do?" and then use Company X's software/hardware. I'm able to do most of the things I want to do, even if they're a bit more roundabout than they used to be, and I'm OK with that.
But, as I get older, even working in the low weeds of tech, I do look forward to, at some point, being able to just put down a computer for the last time. The future they promised and the future we got have diverged so badly, and just continue to diverge.
You could mostly call me a "Unix Greybeard" at this point - I grew up with Windows, learned the joys of Unix on IRIX in the early 2000s, and never really went back. Linux is for servers and dev work desktops, but for about 18 years I'd been using OS X as a daily driver desktop. It really does "just work" for an awful lot of values of work, and it interfaces very nicely with Linux systems and has done so for a long while. With Microsoft's WSL and actually shipping a bloody SSH client now, Windows interfaces better, but it's a bit too little, too late.
I never really objected to Windows, just never had much of a use case for it - but, despite that, I typically had a Windows desktop of some variety or another laying around for various purposes, and a Windows VM or three for [whatever] - currently I've got a Win10 VM that mostly runs UPS WorldShip (I used to ship a lot of hazmat, and I actually like the program for my shipping needs).
Windows 10 has gotten "progressively more annoying" about online accounts. You used to be able to just say "No, thank you, I want a local account only." Then the options got more hidden, and then the option disappeared unless you literally don't have a network connection when you're installing it, and if you have a local account it starts nagging you more and more to "sign in with Microsoft!" Yes, you can turn it off, but the default is to badger the user. I don't want an online account for my local operating systems, thank you very much. Never have, never will.
Windows 11, though, has turned into a "Nope, never..." option for me. Maybe in a VM if I really need to. The two major things that really upset me are the transition to a "You can't have a local account only on Win11 Home," and the bug in the beta in which a bad advertising JSON blob (from Microsoft!) absolutely hosed Explorer, rendering the OS unusable. There is no computing world I'm OK with in which basic OS operation and functionality should be rendered unusable by bad data from the internet, and that tells me where the priorities for Microsoft are: Tightly integrated advertising. With the "We must know your email address to use our OS," there's almost certainly some variety of behavioral analysis going on that they can use to profit on the backend from the "free" OS. You're the source of raw materials, and all... so Windows 11 is out.
Apple was going well, and I really appreciated their privacy stance... and then they seem to have badly miscalculated and blown most of that trust, in my book, with the on-device, anti-user CSAM scanning that was a beautiful, ivory tower, academic exercise in novel crypto, that seems to have fallen apart literally as soon as people got their hands on the concept to play with. The photo hashing they're using couldn't withstand any basic adversarial attacks (either in terms of mutating images to avoid being detected, or in terms of deliberate image collisions), and they seem to have been caught dazed and confused in how their responses to concerns about it were almost "Oh, yeah, uh... yeah, we're definitely defending against that concern with this thing we just thought of at 3AM." The later documents and FAQs read like the output of someone operating on no sleep for a couple weeks, and some of their internal email quotes regarding the "screeching minority" didn't exactly go over very well either.
Yes, I know they've "delayed" it, but they've not said "We're sorry, that was a terrible idea, and we're not going to do that or anything like it" either, so... Apple's out. Sad, really, the M1 Mac Mini I bought when it was announced is, by far, the best computer I've used across a huge variety of metrics, and the M1 Mac Pros are quite literally exactly what I want in a laptop. Oh well. I'll find alternatives.
If I'm going to continue using modern computing (which, unfortunately, isn't quite as optional as I'd really prefer in the modern world), that leaves me staring down the Linux path, and so I've gone that way. Linux on the desktop isn't perfect, but neither is it nearly as painful as it used to be. It does most of the stuff I care about - and my attitude has changed around to, "If I can't do it on Linux, then I suppose it's not something I should particularly care about doing." I'm at a point in my life where that's entirely viable for me, so it's the route I've gone.
... and then for added pain, because I'm apparently allergic to working computers at this point, I've gotten pretty well upset with Intel over the last few years with "Yet Another Microarchitectural Vulnerability" (and then the endless variations on a theme that they didn't patch against when they fixed the first set - come on, if the academics understand your processors better than the people in charge of fixing them, that's a problem too). AMD is an option, but as ARM has been coming up the ladder quickly in performance, I've set out to try and use as much ARM as I can. So, my primary laptop, for when I use it, is a PineBook Pro, I've got an ODroid N2+ and RasPi4 running as office desktops (and am uncomfortably excited about the upcoming Rock5 with NVMe and 16GB RAM), etc. I still have some x86 in my life for certain things, but I'm trying very hard to reduce that over time.
While I'm at it, I've gone back to a flip phone, and I don't even bother bringing that with me half the time I go out anymore.
I won't say I always like the corners I've painted myself into, but I'm at least comfortable with where I am. I'm not having to say, "This thing Company X is doing is horrible... but, I mean, what am I gonna do?" and then use Company X's software/hardware. I'm able to do most of the things I want to do, even if they're a bit more roundabout than they used to be, and I'm OK with that.
But, as I get older, even working in the low weeds of tech, I do look forward to, at some point, being able to just put down a computer for the last time. The future they promised and the future we got have diverged so badly, and just continue to diverge.
Thanks for your reply. It was helpful to hear someone on a similar journey. I am just reaching the point of take a stand for whats right, rather than what I have to get by with. No with Linux in much better shape, I can do it. From time to time I think about switching back but Im making most of what I do work.
Adobe CC, Microsoft Office and Visual Studios prevent an all out shift to linux for the majority. LibreOffice, VSCode, Gimp/Inkscape and everything JetBrains has to offer just doesn't make the cut yet. But we are getting close by each passing year.
> Adobe CC, Microsoft Office and Visual Studios prevent an all out shift to linux for the majority
How do you figure? Most people don't do any real photo editing or real asset creation. Microsoft Office isn't required for anything except Excel and that's fairly specific to a certain type of office worker. Visual Studio has many replacements, especially if you aren't using an MS stack top to bottom.
Heck, when I was in business school (majored in Finance) the profs told us to use Google Docs over MS Office for basically everything except our Excel-specific assignments... Like we'd hand in assignments simply by sharing a Google Doc. So much easier than dealing with Word compatibility nonsense.
How do you figure? Most people don't do any real photo editing or real asset creation. Microsoft Office isn't required for anything except Excel and that's fairly specific to a certain type of office worker. Visual Studio has many replacements, especially if you aren't using an MS stack top to bottom.
Heck, when I was in business school (majored in Finance) the profs told us to use Google Docs over MS Office for basically everything except our Excel-specific assignments... Like we'd hand in assignments simply by sharing a Google Doc. So much easier than dealing with Word compatibility nonsense.
A typical business org uses microsoft office for documents, and they employ programmers writing plugins to their microsoft office products using visual studio which also integrates into their internal .NET business services. I doubt migration would be easy, as everything ties into each other.
Yes, I know. In my last corporate gig I was given a laptop with a bunch of MS crap on it. It was far, far worse than my normal setup (Ubuntu + OSS stuff + Google Docs). MS Teams specifically would consume so much memory that eventually other programs wouldn't open without a reboot (the laptop was kinda shit too).
I know what you describe is a thing. That doesn't make it a good thing.
Edit - should add, Office 365 file synching is also absolute shit. Drove me insane.
I know what you describe is a thing. That doesn't make it a good thing.
Edit - should add, Office 365 file synching is also absolute shit. Drove me insane.
Heh, MS Teams... I wonder if the UX team is the same as for SharePoint. They both suck in a similar way - fortunatelly I can mostly avoid them both.
I've been working in companies that use office 365 for the last 4 or 5 years and I had no problem working with office documents either using the office 365 web apps or libreoffice on linux.
> LibreOffice, VSCode, Gimp/Inkscape and everything JetBrains has to offer just doesn't make the cut yet. But we are getting close by each passing year.
I've been reading effectively this sentence for well over a decade and I know I'll still be hearing it from someone long after everyone else has left them behind.
I've been reading effectively this sentence for well over a decade and I know I'll still be hearing it from someone long after everyone else has left them behind.
In my experience, I feel it's getting better in some regards, worse in others.
I used to be Visual Studio only but nowadays I refuse to install that VS in any capacity if I can help it: the installer is broken, the app takes forever to launch and it's always an unpleasant experience against other IDEs like Jetbrains.
I don't use MS Office and I have fond memories of some powerful features but unless you need to actively use it I think the web versions are fine?
..Gimp/Krita/Inkscape are nowhere near acceptable for graphics work and while they have been making leaps the proprietary apps haven't stood still and I think they are more than keeping the pace. I am a super avid user of Affinity Photo/Designer and they are the my main blocking issue for moving out of Windows currently. Wine support for these two apps is non-existent ( https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=applicatio... )
EDIT: Forgot to say, LibreOffice is unusable IMO, the UI has plenty of issues (honestly whoever is in charge should watch Tantacrul's video on MuseScore as I find a lot of parallels) and it's quite unreliable. We used to maintain a software manual at my previous place of work and LibreOffice would crash so often when trying to edit it, to the point we gave up having a manual!
I used to be Visual Studio only but nowadays I refuse to install that VS in any capacity if I can help it: the installer is broken, the app takes forever to launch and it's always an unpleasant experience against other IDEs like Jetbrains.
I don't use MS Office and I have fond memories of some powerful features but unless you need to actively use it I think the web versions are fine?
..Gimp/Krita/Inkscape are nowhere near acceptable for graphics work and while they have been making leaps the proprietary apps haven't stood still and I think they are more than keeping the pace. I am a super avid user of Affinity Photo/Designer and they are the my main blocking issue for moving out of Windows currently. Wine support for these two apps is non-existent ( https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=applicatio... )
EDIT: Forgot to say, LibreOffice is unusable IMO, the UI has plenty of issues (honestly whoever is in charge should watch Tantacrul's video on MuseScore as I find a lot of parallels) and it's quite unreliable. We used to maintain a software manual at my previous place of work and LibreOffice would crash so often when trying to edit it, to the point we gave up having a manual!
LibreOffice is nowhere near Office or even Google Docs levels of quality, ease of use, or features, and the gap only widens each year.
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A lot of people in this thread seem to suffer with bugs on Linux. In my experience, bugs with systems like WiFi and Bluetooth have been related to the specific hardware I’m using. For my current laptop, I made sure it could run arch with no problems before buying, and I’ve had no issues with WiFi or Bluetooth.
That being said, battery life sucks and thunderbolt 3 docks work unreliably.
That being said, battery life sucks and thunderbolt 3 docks work unreliably.
Am I the only one that uses Linux, Windows, and MacOS daily? Why settle for just one OS environment? What a time to be alive.
I fail to see the value in all of these culture wars. It never ends. All of these systems work great for me. Thanks to all of hard work from all of the engineering teams and volunteers that put these systems together.
I fail to see the value in all of these culture wars. It never ends. All of these systems work great for me. Thanks to all of hard work from all of the engineering teams and volunteers that put these systems together.
They're not merely culture wars, they're also value wars. Both Windows and MacOS are headed toward continuous behind-your-back communication with their respective motherships. In the case of Windows, they have the audacity to shamelessly advertise on your personal computer.
Correct. Many Linux users want Linux to "win" because they think they know what's best for people, and think that people should not be allowed to give over their personal information and privacy (which everyone presupposes Micro$oft takes from you) in exchange for working software. It leads to rhetoric and propaganda that's detached from reality, but it's for a good cause (getting people to switch to Linux).
Well, that's an interesting strawman...
If you want to willingly give over your personal information and privacy, which in fact Microsoft does take from you (no need to speak of supposition), that's certainly your decision to make and it's not my place to tell you if that's what's best for you or not. I also think you are imputing motive to Linux advocates that's not real - I don't think any of us are trying to tell you shouldn't be allowed to do what you want with your personal info. We are saying that if you use those systems, the only way you get a choice in the matter is if you go to significant lengths that defy how the vendor tries to force you their system. You are free to embrace those terms as much you like.
The "in exchange for working software" is also a needless swipe. Maybe there's some contingent of Linux users that use it just because they love tinkering, but most Linux users do real work with our systems. Personally, I'm more interested in the work I do with my system than I am with working on my system.
If you want to willingly give over your personal information and privacy, which in fact Microsoft does take from you (no need to speak of supposition), that's certainly your decision to make and it's not my place to tell you if that's what's best for you or not. I also think you are imputing motive to Linux advocates that's not real - I don't think any of us are trying to tell you shouldn't be allowed to do what you want with your personal info. We are saying that if you use those systems, the only way you get a choice in the matter is if you go to significant lengths that defy how the vendor tries to force you their system. You are free to embrace those terms as much you like.
The "in exchange for working software" is also a needless swipe. Maybe there's some contingent of Linux users that use it just because they love tinkering, but most Linux users do real work with our systems. Personally, I'm more interested in the work I do with my system than I am with working on my system.
> you are imputing motive to Linux advocates that's not real
I didn't say "Linux advocates" I said "MANY Linux advocates". Linux users can be broadly bisected along various criteria and one of them is how much they care about "saving users from themselves" a.k.a. "knowing what's best for you". I include in that group people who will say that using Windows is fine, but will needle and jab at anyone they see using non-free software, as though it's their civic duty to goad people into submission.
I didn't say "Linux advocates" I said "MANY Linux advocates". Linux users can be broadly bisected along various criteria and one of them is how much they care about "saving users from themselves" a.k.a. "knowing what's best for you". I include in that group people who will say that using Windows is fine, but will needle and jab at anyone they see using non-free software, as though it's their civic duty to goad people into submission.
There are plenty of opensource programs with telemetry built in. Many company build there products using opensource components and sell your information in the backend. This is not an opensource vs. closed source argument. This is a data rights/privacy argument and until governments and citizens take the matter seriously we will get nowhere.
I totally agree that we are well past the point where data security and privacy need strong regulation or legislation. At least Europe has GDPR.
However, I hard disagree with drawing a false equivalence between the open source community, particularly in the operating system space (which this article is about), and the closed-source commercial vendors. Also disagree that adopting open source "gets us nowhere" in this battle.
Sure, there is some telemetry in the open source world, as we see in the Firefox discussion. We also see reactions such as LibreWolf, or community outrage at the likes of GitLab when this happens. It's just not part of the open source community's ethos to look the other way at hidden telemetry. In the open source realm it is a) it is the exception rather than the rule, and b) the fact they are doing it is clearly knowable and neuterable[1]. That's a far cry from Apple validating every executable you run, or Microsoft not even allowing you to opt-out of telemetry, and god knows what other vendors of core closed source software do now.
I'm not an open source zealot, but the race to the bottom over the past 10 years just hardens my resolve to own my devices and not the other way around.
[1] Again, talking about client-side software or servers you run/control. You will always have to figure out how much you trust SaaS providers regardless of what software is part of their offering.
However, I hard disagree with drawing a false equivalence between the open source community, particularly in the operating system space (which this article is about), and the closed-source commercial vendors. Also disagree that adopting open source "gets us nowhere" in this battle.
Sure, there is some telemetry in the open source world, as we see in the Firefox discussion. We also see reactions such as LibreWolf, or community outrage at the likes of GitLab when this happens. It's just not part of the open source community's ethos to look the other way at hidden telemetry. In the open source realm it is a) it is the exception rather than the rule, and b) the fact they are doing it is clearly knowable and neuterable[1]. That's a far cry from Apple validating every executable you run, or Microsoft not even allowing you to opt-out of telemetry, and god knows what other vendors of core closed source software do now.
I'm not an open source zealot, but the race to the bottom over the past 10 years just hardens my resolve to own my devices and not the other way around.
[1] Again, talking about client-side software or servers you run/control. You will always have to figure out how much you trust SaaS providers regardless of what software is part of their offering.
Man its much worse than culture wars. It's really about anti-choice an anti-customer decisions, all for the possibility for profit.
I just blew away my last Windows installation and completed the move to Pop!_OS. I keep a VM running Windows 10 Pro around so I can access Office desktop apps and some Windows-specific software I need, but I spend most of my time in Linux now and have love it.
Does anyone have problems with configuring printing to do what you want? I have been having problems getting duplex printing to stick and work correctly with CUPS and my Epson WF-3540
It's good to know that this year is the year of the Linux Desktop. Just like last year. And the year before that. And the year before...
1996 was the year for Linux on the desktop. FVWM, then Windomaker, then Sawmill/Sawfish, now Xmonad. Never looked back. From working at a publisher to doing development work at several companies to freelancing as hacker for hire to giving my 80+ mother a safe desktop to do administration and finances on while I live some 1300 km to the north of her, Linux rules the roost.
Why? Because it works. No nasty surprises, no forced upgrades, no nonsense.
Why? Because it works. No nasty surprises, no forced upgrades, no nonsense.
I've come to this conclusion too. 1996 was the year of the Linux desktop. But... there's more to the story. In 1996 Linux was a clone of Unix, because there were still Unixes out there (HP-UX, SCO, etc.) that were charging $xx,000/seat. Everything good about Linux was taken from Unix.
This put Unix vendors out of business, which is unfortunate because after that, Linux had nothing left to copy from. There were no new ideas from industry. Instead, it became design-by-committee and first-come-first-serve. That's why it's taken so long for X11 to be replaced by Wayland. Many internet flame wars had to happen before Wayland was uncontroversial enough to be included.
Hm, yes, Wayland. It has not convinced me so I'm using X11 everywhere, that network transparency (through NX/X2go) is just too useful to let go. It is how my mother uses a Mate desktop running on the server-under-the-stairs here in Sweden from her laptop in the Netherlands to do her banking: Wireguard VPN + X2go. Would it work in Wayland? Probably, using VNC instead of X2go. Would it work without needing to futz with recalcitrant bits? Probably not. X2go "Just Works™" so... why bother?
The year of Linux Desktop for me was 2006. For every linux user/fan out there: when was yours?
2005 if i recall correctly.
i downloaded a 200mb iso file over the course of a couple days: a [then] slackware-based distro called slax. i quickly came to understand that its packages were just tarballs overlaid on the filesystem (how simple!) and some of its GUI tools were just bash scripts calling a tool called zenity (amazing!).
i was hooked immediately. the biggest hurdle was my glorified sound card of a modem. booting into win2k to google about compiling a kernel driver, then booting into slax to try what i'd read, was a tedious but manageable task. i believe i sent away for a kubuntu cd soon after and never looked back.
i downloaded a 200mb iso file over the course of a couple days: a [then] slackware-based distro called slax. i quickly came to understand that its packages were just tarballs overlaid on the filesystem (how simple!) and some of its GUI tools were just bash scripts calling a tool called zenity (amazing!).
i was hooked immediately. the biggest hurdle was my glorified sound card of a modem. booting into win2k to google about compiling a kernel driver, then booting into slax to try what i'd read, was a tedious but manageable task. i believe i sent away for a kubuntu cd soon after and never looked back.
1997, also the year when I got 10Mbit connection at home, which was unheard of at that time. Also, came from Amiga, skipped the msdos and windows almost completely.
A few years ago, 2019 I think was the last I had Windows installed.
2002 SuSE KDE 3
Linux isn't even close for normal people's desktop use.
Just recently I tried and failed to simply set up a screensaver that turns my screen black (not off!) to save my display from burn-in. Eventually I just gave up. You can't do this with stock GNOME. I also tried xscreensaver (but the Debian-specific instructions in the man page are out of date) and xfce4-screensaver, both didn't work.
I've been using Debian GNU/Linux since Feb 2016 and consider myself adept but still couldn't figure this very simple task out.
Just recently I tried and failed to simply set up a screensaver that turns my screen black (not off!) to save my display from burn-in. Eventually I just gave up. You can't do this with stock GNOME. I also tried xscreensaver (but the Debian-specific instructions in the man page are out of date) and xfce4-screensaver, both didn't work.
I've been using Debian GNU/Linux since Feb 2016 and consider myself adept but still couldn't figure this very simple task out.
Even my grandmother who used her first computer late in her seventies knew how to do that on linux.
Please enlighten me. I've sunk hours into this.
To be fair, what you're looking for (black but not off) is probably not something many people would want or care about. But it does demonstrate how (A) inflexible and (B) feature-poor most Linux distros are
I'm really just looking to display a screensaver which _is_ something people want and care about.
All screensaver software that I've seen supports displaying an image / slide show which I will simply set to a black image. Another common feature is just displaying black.
Note: in Windows both of these are quite easy.
All screensaver software that I've seen supports displaying an image / slide show which I will simply set to a black image. Another common feature is just displaying black.
Note: in Windows both of these are quite easy.
What?
It really couldn't be simpler: You open settings -> screensaver, choose blank after N minutes and close the settings window. Works.
I have no screensaver options under settings: https://i.imgur.com/WM3xIWL.png
Note, I'm using Debian Sid. Gnome 3.36.2 on Wayland.
Note, I'm using Debian Sid. Gnome 3.36.2 on Wayland.
Try looking under Power.
Nope, this is quite the opposite of black: https://i.imgur.com/L0O0fNn.png
It also turns my display off, which is not what I want: https://i.imgur.com/z5BIqGj.png
Seems like it's not as simple as @nxbp claims.
It also turns my display off, which is not what I want: https://i.imgur.com/z5BIqGj.png
Seems like it's not as simple as @nxbp claims.
Use xautolock with i3lock w/ a black image..
That will still black the display when I'm watching youtube.
https://github.com/caffeine-ng/caffeine-ng
Edit: fyi this wasn’t part of your initial complaint. I don’t use caffeine because I want my screen to predictably lock
Edit: fyi this wasn’t part of your initial complaint. I don’t use caffeine because I want my screen to predictably lock
"normal people's desktop use"
I’m not sure while you’re so hostile, but I wish you luck on all future endeavours.
1. Ugh I want to run docker natively, Ubuntu looks good, I’ll do that 2. Install latest Ubuntu. It’s great! Love the shell. Hardware works. I can run Windows in Virtual Box for odd apps. 3. Why is my battery life so bad? Why won’t Bluetooth stay connected? 4. I am full Linux. I am living the creed! 5. I am so tired of constantly fixing something. Why is Spotify rendering weird. Why doesn’t mouse scroll work in Firefox. 6. I don’t have time for this. Back to Windows.
I think now that WSL has matured, it’s just hard to justify going back. Everything works and I get real Linux.