Ask HN: What has been your experience with bigger tech companies in London?
114 comments
You make way less money than your peers in California and everything is still as expensive. It's a financially horrible decision if you can work in the US. If you want to work in Europe though it's pretty good.
I've worked at FAANG in US and UK and am currently going back to the US for non-financial reasons. I don't regret being here but I find London to be impossibly expensive to build a family in.
I've worked at FAANG in US and UK and am currently going back to the US for non-financial reasons. I don't regret being here but I find London to be impossibly expensive to build a family in.
It's interesting that you have lived in both and can do a fair comparison. There was a reddit thread a while back that compared US and UK salaries.[1] The consensus seemed to be, that if you compared the cost of living, you would need a considerably higher income in the US to have the same standard of living as the UK. One person said that 130K USD salary in the Bay Area would be equivalent to 50K GBP in London.[2] Another person said that 100K USD in the Bay Area is equivalent to 50 GBP in London. [3]
It would be great to get your feedback on this.
[1]:https://old.reddit.com/r/UKPersonalFinance/comments/nhe8v1/w...
[2]:https://old.reddit.com/r/UKPersonalFinance/comments/nhe8v1/w...
[3]:https://old.reddit.com/r/UKPersonalFinance/comments/nhe8v1/w...
It would be great to get your feedback on this.
[1]:https://old.reddit.com/r/UKPersonalFinance/comments/nhe8v1/w...
[2]:https://old.reddit.com/r/UKPersonalFinance/comments/nhe8v1/w...
[3]:https://old.reddit.com/r/UKPersonalFinance/comments/nhe8v1/w...
I moved from SF to London in 2010 and back in 2014. I was working for a startup at the time, so not FAANG, but also salaries weren't anywhere near what they are today.
My experience is you can't really compare salaries directly, you really need to think about your personal lifestyle. First, if you care primarily about money then there's no substitute for being in Silicon Valley. After that it gets more complicated, basic cost of living like food and going out to the pub is cheaper in London, but high end goods are more expensive and the 20% VAT really hurts. People are generally calibrated on less material goods than the typical American is used to. That includes smaller flats and spending a greater percentage of your income on them. On the other hand though, you don't have to worry about health care, and you don't need to own a car because public transport coverage is solid, and the majority of places have at least decent walkability with some local shops. Overall I would say if you're interested you need to look at potential salary and rents and figure out if it works financially, but don't expect to make equivalent as the US and stay on the same financial trajectory—it's apples and oranges.
My experience is you can't really compare salaries directly, you really need to think about your personal lifestyle. First, if you care primarily about money then there's no substitute for being in Silicon Valley. After that it gets more complicated, basic cost of living like food and going out to the pub is cheaper in London, but high end goods are more expensive and the 20% VAT really hurts. People are generally calibrated on less material goods than the typical American is used to. That includes smaller flats and spending a greater percentage of your income on them. On the other hand though, you don't have to worry about health care, and you don't need to own a car because public transport coverage is solid, and the majority of places have at least decent walkability with some local shops. Overall I would say if you're interested you need to look at potential salary and rents and figure out if it works financially, but don't expect to make equivalent as the US and stay on the same financial trajectory—it's apples and oranges.
3bdrm house in London is basically $1m. This is on par with the Valley. I am surprised salaries are not higher.
I am not sure what you mean by less material goods... I don't think that's true or really means much of anything. Not having space means less stuff in general anyway cause you have to put it somewhere.
I am not sure what you mean by less material goods... I don't think that's true or really means much of anything. Not having space means less stuff in general anyway cause you have to put it somewhere.
Agree. I’m a US citizen who lived in London. The cost of essentials are actually very affordable in the UK. Your lifestyle excludes the need to acquire material goods. If earning money is your primary focus, I would choose the US. These are my prime earning years and am happy to be here. Otherwise, I found the UK to be an amazing place to live. I look forward to hanging it all up and returning to a quiet village in the Cotswalds.
> The consensus seemed to be, that if you compared the cost of living, you would need a considerably higher income in the US to have the same standard of living as the UK
While this does have a partial truth to it, the examples are delusional. How can anyone compare 50k GBP to 130K USD?
I have lived across the USA, EU, and Asia; but such comparisons are heavily personal situation dependant. The calculations would differ for single vs family as well.
While this does have a partial truth to it, the examples are delusional. How can anyone compare 50k GBP to 130K USD?
I have lived across the USA, EU, and Asia; but such comparisons are heavily personal situation dependant. The calculations would differ for single vs family as well.
I’ve also lived in the UK and US, though did not work for a FAANG in the UK.
By the exchange rate right now, 50k GBP is around 65k USD. If you want to live within (say) an hour reach of an office, you’ll have a much easier time doing that in the London metro area with 50k than you will in the Bay Area with 130k. This is before you even consider taxes and healthcare. High quality groceries also substantially cheaper in the UK. A new wildcard is the price of energy, which looks to have gone up considerably in the UK since I left, though.
Neither would be a comfortable position, and you wouldn’t be in danger of being able to buy a house absent other income. All in all though, if they were my fixed options, I’d take the money in London.
By the exchange rate right now, 50k GBP is around 65k USD. If you want to live within (say) an hour reach of an office, you’ll have a much easier time doing that in the London metro area with 50k than you will in the Bay Area with 130k. This is before you even consider taxes and healthcare. High quality groceries also substantially cheaper in the UK. A new wildcard is the price of energy, which looks to have gone up considerably in the UK since I left, though.
Neither would be a comfortable position, and you wouldn’t be in danger of being able to buy a house absent other income. All in all though, if they were my fixed options, I’d take the money in London.
Anecdotally, 10 years ago, two people could rent and live comfortably in zone 1 (just a few minutes from work) with a salary of ~50k. A few salary bumps later we managed to buy a flat in zone 2. Prices of flats have gone up (but not as much as houses) and so has cost of living, but I would say that two people or even a family will live more than comfortably in London on ~100k, manage to save some money and even be able to buy a flat, given a reasonable deposit.
Houses, even small ones, in zone 1-2 are now prohibitively expensive, but if you are willing to move further away there are options.
Houses, even small ones, in zone 1-2 are now prohibitively expensive, but if you are willing to move further away there are options.
not only there are options, but there is excellent transportation in London, especially compared to the driving hell because of the all day traffic all around Bay Area.
Another parameter I don't see people mentioning (not surprisingly, since its HN after all) is the monoculture in Bay Area, versus living in one of the few global metropolis.
In the Bay all you see and live is tech, in London tech is only a part of the overall life experience.
But yeah, overall it's highly personal depending on personal circumstances than anything else.
But yeah, overall it's highly personal depending on personal circumstances than anything else.
Very much agree.
Regarding transportation, I have been living here for 13 years and still don't own a car.
Regarding transportation, I have been living here for 13 years and still don't own a car.
Like I said, it depends on your circumstances. If you /have/ to live in the center of a metropolitan, SFO and LHR are equally bad - I have friends in both areas.
I still wouldn’t compare 50k GBP to 130k USD.
I still wouldn’t compare 50k GBP to 130k USD.
> One person said that 130K USD salary in the Bay Area would be equivalent to 50K GBP in London
I don't know how expensive the Bay Area may be, but 50K in London (3100 per month) are barely enough to pay rent (2000 per month) and definitely not enough to send a child to nursery (2000 per month).
I don't know how expensive the Bay Area may be, but 50K in London (3100 per month) are barely enough to pay rent (2000 per month) and definitely not enough to send a child to nursery (2000 per month).
I think you are correct that yu need approximately 2x salary in the United States to maintain the same cost of living as in London. However with larger companies, you can usually make 3x or even 4x working in California compared to what they pay in London.
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130K USD salary in the Bay Area
It's worth pointing out that this is below FAANG range. A software engineer with zero years of experience in the US should make roughly $160K-190K in compensation at the large tech companies.
https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Amazon,Google,Facebook,Apple...
In the Bay Area, the cost of real estate will dominate your cost of living. If you are happy to live in a 1-bedroom apartment, that entry level FAANG software engineering job will pay for everything you need in life and more. If you want to buy a house for your spouse and three children, it will start to depend much more on precisely where you want to live.
Unfortunately a 5 bedroom house in Mountain View will run you maybe $3.5M. But it depends a lot on where you go though. Look out in the San Jose suburbs and the same house might cost half as much. I don't know much about the London real estate situation so I can't speak to it but if you really want to compare cost of living for software engineers you probably should look specifically at housing, rather than comparing general statistics.
It's worth pointing out that this is below FAANG range. A software engineer with zero years of experience in the US should make roughly $160K-190K in compensation at the large tech companies.
https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Amazon,Google,Facebook,Apple...
In the Bay Area, the cost of real estate will dominate your cost of living. If you are happy to live in a 1-bedroom apartment, that entry level FAANG software engineering job will pay for everything you need in life and more. If you want to buy a house for your spouse and three children, it will start to depend much more on precisely where you want to live.
Unfortunately a 5 bedroom house in Mountain View will run you maybe $3.5M. But it depends a lot on where you go though. Look out in the San Jose suburbs and the same house might cost half as much. I don't know much about the London real estate situation so I can't speak to it but if you really want to compare cost of living for software engineers you probably should look specifically at housing, rather than comparing general statistics.
A few years ago FAANG salaries in London were pretty weak, but they’re much better now and even within the startup ecosystem — traditionally much lower than FAANG salaries here — £90k is a reasonable base expectation and £100k at a minimum for FAANG (>150k TC is normal).
On £100k London is pretty affordable, so I’m curious, how much were you making in London and what do you consider to be a required salary to start a family here? London is very expensive but I’ve not heard the sentiment that FAANG salaries aren’t enough — would be helpful to learn more specifics of your view!
On £100k London is pretty affordable, so I’m curious, how much were you making in London and what do you consider to be a required salary to start a family here? London is very expensive but I’ve not heard the sentiment that FAANG salaries aren’t enough — would be helpful to learn more specifics of your view!
£100k London as a single person could definitely buy a flat somewhere. Maybe not a great area but it's doable.
A house with a garden, kids, private school etc. 100k won't cut it unfortunately.
For some reason I thought FAANGs in London were paid really well but seems like contracting or finance is the only way to get a reasonable income.
I have a buddy who was working for a DeepMind and now works for Google (UK). His salary is £140k. Meanwhile day rates of £600 per day are pretty standard and pay the same for arguably less hassle.
A house with a garden, kids, private school etc. 100k won't cut it unfortunately.
For some reason I thought FAANGs in London were paid really well but seems like contracting or finance is the only way to get a reasonable income.
I have a buddy who was working for a DeepMind and now works for Google (UK). His salary is £140k. Meanwhile day rates of £600 per day are pretty standard and pay the same for arguably less hassle.
I agree with everything you said aside from: "For some reason I thought FAANGs in London were paid really well but seems like contracting or finance is the only way to get a reasonable income."
Even in London £100k is above a reasonable income for one person. It's not enough to buy a house and provide for a family on one income and still have no worries, but expecting that is unreasonable. It's really easy to get stuck in a bubble where we forget that six figures is crazy out of the ordinary for an average person.
But as to your main point. Yeah finance and contracting really is the right way to go to get a high income. Though I think this might be changing with the contracting as there were some recent changes that make contracting less efficient tax wise, and could push high performers to either ask for more, or just move to being an employee.
Even in London £100k is above a reasonable income for one person. It's not enough to buy a house and provide for a family on one income and still have no worries, but expecting that is unreasonable. It's really easy to get stuck in a bubble where we forget that six figures is crazy out of the ordinary for an average person.
But as to your main point. Yeah finance and contracting really is the right way to go to get a high income. Though I think this might be changing with the contracting as there were some recent changes that make contracting less efficient tax wise, and could push high performers to either ask for more, or just move to being an employee.
It's really out of the ordinary when you're in the top 1% and can't afford a decent life - meanwhile lower middle class people who bought before QE (15 years ago) can afford a decent life.
We shouldn't be lowering our "unreasonable" standards. If you're in the top 1% in income - you should have an complementary lifestyle. Not just be grateful that you're not in complete financial misery like everyone else your age.
We shouldn't be lowering our "unreasonable" standards. If you're in the top 1% in income - you should have an complementary lifestyle. Not just be grateful that you're not in complete financial misery like everyone else your age.
You should pay more attention to household incomes than individual incomes, because housing is a per-household expense. Even if you are a high-income individual, you may still live in a mid-income household. In most large cities, being mid-income means you can afford to rent in most areas or buy in cheap areas.
Income is so unevenly distributed that if you're in the top 1% of personal income, you're in the top 3% of HH income.
Assuming you're single and in the top 3% of HH income (top 1% personal) - you have 2.1 less persons to provide for. You should probably be better off than two people with a kid. You need less bedrooms and floor space, that's for sure.
If you can't find a decent 1 bedroom in town - I feel sorry for the family shopping for a 3 bedroom on a slightly higher income that has most of that extra income going directly to the tax man.
Assuming you're single and in the top 3% of HH income (top 1% personal) - you have 2.1 less persons to provide for. You should probably be better off than two people with a kid. You need less bedrooms and floor space, that's for sure.
If you can't find a decent 1 bedroom in town - I feel sorry for the family shopping for a 3 bedroom on a slightly higher income that has most of that extra income going directly to the tax man.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect that someone in the top 10% of incomes should be able to buy a house.
Top 10% of household income with some savings for a downpayment should indeed be able to purchase housing if they choose to tie themself down that way.
It’s not necessarily the case that top 10% individual income means you’re top 10% household income (and the top 10% household income can obviously bid more for housing than the second, third, or farther decile of household income).
It’s not necessarily the case that top 10% individual income means you’re top 10% household income (and the top 10% household income can obviously bid more for housing than the second, third, or farther decile of household income).
A household (not individual) income of £100000 is sufficient to be well inside the top 10% by income. Using the standard ratio of 4.5 times income for a mortgage means that you are capped at houses costing around 560k, assuming you have 20% to put down.
The following search for 3 bedroom houses [1] provides either flats, maisonettes and a few houses in areas with poor transport links, and many of these are still over budget.
[1]: https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/find.html?sear...
The following search for 3 bedroom houses [1] provides either flats, maisonettes and a few houses in areas with poor transport links, and many of these are still over budget.
[1]: https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/find.html?sear...
What's wrong with a decent flat or maisonette?
I agree with your general point that housing is too expensive! I'm just curious.
I agree with your general point that housing is too expensive! I'm just curious.
Not as nice as an house, but having lived in one for a 10 years, they are perfectly fine homes.
An usual downside is that technically you never own it.
An usual downside is that technically you never own it.
Nothing is wrong with purpose-built flats or maisonettes - I personally live in a high rise! Most people I know looking for a place to live with a family etc are looking for a house though.
The downside of contracting though is that the work is typically the work full-time employees don't want to do. You gain in flexibility, but lose in enjoyment -- enjoyable contracts are a minority. Specific to the point on finances: there's typically 250 billable days in a UK year so £600/day is £150k/year. There are tax benefits to contracting, so it's not a one-to-one relationship, but £150k/year salaried is better than £600/day for most people.
Yeah you're right there. 150k salary is better than a £600 day contract.
£150k per year is tricky to find for salaried positions as a dev. They exist but not as visible (to me at least) compared to the contract equivalents.
The enjoyment side is something I hear mixed opinions on. There are plenty of "disguised employment" type contracts in the UK that just go to contractors for rarer skill sets. YMMV.
£150k per year is tricky to find for salaried positions as a dev. They exist but not as visible (to me at least) compared to the contract equivalents.
The enjoyment side is something I hear mixed opinions on. There are plenty of "disguised employment" type contracts in the UK that just go to contractors for rarer skill sets. YMMV.
I agree. I left £800pd for £150k salaried for work interest reasons mainly, but tbh I haven't noticed the reduction in monthly income at all.
£150k is much, much less than non entry level FAANG engineers in the US are making.
Adjusting for benefits etc. it's not that different but my point is that £150k in London is a great salary on which someone can live very well, regardless of what you can earn in the US.
£150k is ~$196k base. I don't really see how that's much much less? My friend is an L6 at 220k base (with a shitload of equity). Definitely within the range.
Workers in UK also work less than their US counterparts (paid holidays, parental leave, sick days ...) [1]. Would make more sense to compare these countries by hourly income, not yearly.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_a...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_a...
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My (current) experience is that the London teams at my FAANG work no less than the US ones, and indeed often much later into the evenings to accommodate meetings. And everyone works fewer hours than those in finance.
Base is not that important especially at L6. How much stock is your friend getting?
150k after tax, pension and healthcare or before?
UK/Australia/NZ tend to talk about Base salary (excludes bonus/health care/before tax).
Is that different elsewhere?
Edited to note this is "Base" not "Total" Salary
Is that different elsewhere?
Edited to note this is "Base" not "Total" Salary
Salary in the UK means just the cash part of the package. Before tax, pension, healthcare, stock, bonuses and any other perks.
At least in UK, pension is usually on top of the quoted gross salary (Usually it is at least 10% more). But otherwise yes, the figure is before tax.
150k USD is around what you'll get with 2-3 years of non-FAANG experience in the US, so not that bad for London.
Really non fangs pay 150k? Where?
Reminds me of Martin Hairer commenting on what he is going to do with his $3m breakthrough prize-money:
“We moved to London somewhat recently, three years ago, and we are still renting. So it might be time to buy a place to live." [0]
[0] https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/sep/10/uk-mathemati...
[0] https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/sep/10/uk-mathemati...
I wonder, is moving from UK to US easy within a FAANG company? Is that something people do?
It really does depend on the company. Within large companies, there is often a structure that lets you do that. There will be internal job postings, you can apply, get interviewed, accepted, and then the hiring manager begins the process to transfer you over. Visas, processing fees, moving costs, things like that.
The level you're working at matters too for visa reasons. If you can qualify for an L-1 visa, it's one of the easiest ways to get from the UK to the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-1_visa
Yes but it can tie your hands promotion wise.
Why would it?
L1's are based on functional role so IC specialized knowledge(L1A) vs manager (L1B) cross promotions are difficult.
In the UK your family will be covered by the NHS. There is a welfare state. Don’t discount the value of the EU welfare state when it comes to raising a family.
This is not directly the question you're asking, but I find that salary info on London isn't very accurate on Hacker News. London has always been a contract-heavy market, and the best money was had while contracting. Since IR35 this may have changed somewhat, but I've mostly found that rates on contracts inside IR35 have gone up to compensate.
I lead the development of a product in an investment bank, and I concentrate almost entirely on frontend web dev. I've been on a contract for 5 years, and currently pull in £900 per day outside IR35 (£200k equiv or $260k). We routinely hire devs for £700-750 per day and we STILL find it difficult to hire.
I can walk into a number of roles tomorrow paying at least £800 per day.
I lead the development of a product in an investment bank, and I concentrate almost entirely on frontend web dev. I've been on a contract for 5 years, and currently pull in £900 per day outside IR35 (£200k equiv or $260k). We routinely hire devs for £700-750 per day and we STILL find it difficult to hire.
I can walk into a number of roles tomorrow paying at least £800 per day.
The combination of Brexit, IR35 and COVID seems to have made London based companies a lot more willing to have a remote team across Europe. 5 years ago your only choice was to be in an office in London if you wanted these rates, but now there is a lot more flexibility.
I spoke to a recruiter about a role at a food delivery app, and he said almost all of their new contractors (rates advertised were £650/day) are working remotely in Europe to avoid IR35.
I spoke to a recruiter about a role at a food delivery app, and he said almost all of their new contractors (rates advertised were £650/day) are working remotely in Europe to avoid IR35.
This rings true with my experience as a contractor in London.
Google had been building a massive office in central London so I assume they have a reasonable amount of interesting work going on there.
I did go there for a mobile conference a while back and they were not sparing any expense on the conference location and catering etc so I assume they are reasonably competitive. I haven't heard anything bad from the couple of people I know who were based at Google London (although I assume they're still home based, one of them lives near Milan!)
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/jul/28/google-co...
Edit, more recent article
https://www.hamhigh.co.uk/news/business/kings-cross-google-c...
I did go there for a mobile conference a while back and they were not sparing any expense on the conference location and catering etc so I assume they are reasonably competitive. I haven't heard anything bad from the couple of people I know who were based at Google London (although I assume they're still home based, one of them lives near Milan!)
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/jul/28/google-co...
Edit, more recent article
https://www.hamhigh.co.uk/news/business/kings-cross-google-c...
Pay is less than half of most American companies.
London is one of the most expensive cities in the world. It makes more sense to negotiate a good amount of PTO instead and take a London vacation
London is one of the most expensive cities in the world. It makes more sense to negotiate a good amount of PTO instead and take a London vacation
There's a massive skills shortage in London, to make matters worse the government penalised the self-employed and IT contractors were particularly hit hard because alot of them choose to work this way.
Ironic because I know a few recruitment agents that have said IR35 have made things increasingly difficult in an already scarce market, alot of the clients they recruit for are in public and government sectors.
With the changes you'll be less tax efficient and paying almost the same as you're permanent counterparts.
You can avoid IR35 if you're conniving enough to work through a specially setup PSC however these are so difficult and costly, for the fat cats and not the general populous.
Ironic because I know a few recruitment agents that have said IR35 have made things increasingly difficult in an already scarce market, alot of the clients they recruit for are in public and government sectors.
With the changes you'll be less tax efficient and paying almost the same as you're permanent counterparts.
You can avoid IR35 if you're conniving enough to work through a specially setup PSC however these are so difficult and costly, for the fat cats and not the general populous.
> the government penalised the self-employed and IT contractors
Penalised employees pretending to be self-employed in order to evade tax and national insurance.
Penalised employees pretending to be self-employed in order to evade tax and national insurance.
If you're European it's one of the few options you've got. I find it odd though that people make so much less compared to their US counterparts. Does anyone know why that is?
Putting aside the clear invitation to dunk on Euros the answer is pretty straightforward:
1.) The market rate on software engineering is lower in Europe. There are probably some cultural factors at play here (larger talent pool, less entrepreneurship).
2.) Taxes are a bit higher and the company must foot the bill even if that doesn’t show up in your take home directly.
UK employer national insurance is cheap compared to US health insurance. 1) sounds right.
Here in Germany an employee costs substantially more due to various laws and regulations. For example, assuming an employee has a salary of 4000€/month before taxes, the employer is required to pay 7.3% to health insurance, 1.3% to long-term care insurance and 1.5% to unemployment insurance.
There are also substantially more bank holidays (on average 10), and an additional minimum of 20 days of paid leave. Sick leave is generally paid,too, and for at least the first week fully paid by the employer.
There are also substantially more bank holidays (on average 10), and an additional minimum of 20 days of paid leave. Sick leave is generally paid,too, and for at least the first week fully paid by the employer.
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I find it odd though that people make so much less compared to their US counterparts. Does anyone know why that is?
It's just supply and demand. When I was working at Facebook they figured out what salary ranges they should pay in each country by doing a survey of how much software engineers were making and picking a target percentile. I might misremember but I believe Facebook was trying to pay 90th percentile salaries. Then every once in a while they would redo the survey, maybe you tweak it if an office has a hard time hiring, etc, but that's the core logic. I heard anecdotally that Google did it similarly.
So in London the market is just paying software engineers less than they make in California, and so the large tech companies follow that market.
It's just supply and demand. When I was working at Facebook they figured out what salary ranges they should pay in each country by doing a survey of how much software engineers were making and picking a target percentile. I might misremember but I believe Facebook was trying to pay 90th percentile salaries. Then every once in a while they would redo the survey, maybe you tweak it if an office has a hard time hiring, etc, but that's the core logic. I heard anecdotally that Google did it similarly.
So in London the market is just paying software engineers less than they make in California, and so the large tech companies follow that market.
They call this cost of labor. Makes you realize how much of a cog you really are.
It's probably not as big of a difference when you get away from silicon valley which is a special case. And I think one major reason silicon valley salaries are so high because non-compete clauses are invalid, so people can jump to a competitor at a moments notice if they are offered more money.
Another thing I've heard is that many European countries have rules on how to terminate an employee, and most states in the US you can just fire someone at any time for almost any reason, or no reason. So in the US a high salary is essentially a short term risk that can be removed immediately if the company hits a financial downturn. US employees know that there is no loyalty from the company, and in-turn are constantly looking for new positions that pay more.
Another thing I've heard is that many European countries have rules on how to terminate an employee, and most states in the US you can just fire someone at any time for almost any reason, or no reason. So in the US a high salary is essentially a short term risk that can be removed immediately if the company hits a financial downturn. US employees know that there is no loyalty from the company, and in-turn are constantly looking for new positions that pay more.
Mostly money, there's plenty of start-up's in europe but the funding is much less than that from USA VC's.
There are exceptions to this rule but overall funding is less.
There are exceptions to this rule but overall funding is less.
That is true but weird in itself. Much harder to raise large amounts of capital from European sources. Means we end up with European companies funded by American VC.
Lack of competition and venture funding
Also different employer expenses per employee, I don't know them off the top of my head but the UK tax levels are pretty high.
High and only getting higher, along with insane housing costs in that area its not an attractive proposal unless you plan to use the experience to move somewhere else.
Basically the way I did things.
2.5 years in London to level up my skills and work in a few startups, then buggering back off to Australia for CoL that while still expensive is less than London and much better weather and similar salaries to London.
2.5 years in London to level up my skills and work in a few startups, then buggering back off to Australia for CoL that while still expensive is less than London and much better weather and similar salaries to London.
45% tax
That's not the employer tax rate.
They pay like 13% national insurance.
The rest of the tax is paid by the employee. And the 45% rate is only on any earnings OVER £150k. So the money eart less than that is at lower rates.
They pay like 13% national insurance.
The rest of the tax is paid by the employee. And the 45% rate is only on any earnings OVER £150k. So the money eart less than that is at lower rates.
60% between 100k and 125k, then 40% to 150k, then 45% beyond that. Which is weird and hidden behind incrementally removing the 'personal allowance'.
Threshold is probably 100 + (personal allowance)*2 where that was 12.5ish last I looked.
Also some state support (childcare maybe?) evaporates at 100, which is fairly similar to another tax.
Threshold is probably 100 + (personal allowance)*2 where that was 12.5ish last I looked.
Also some state support (childcare maybe?) evaporates at 100, which is fairly similar to another tax.
If you live in the US, there's no reason to move to the UK. Life is extremely expensive, especially if you are planning to start a family. The UK outside of inner London is a non-place where only the locals can live, with the GDP per capita of an Eastern European country and nothing to do (apart from going to the local pub and taking a train to inner London).
Interviews are relatively easy, salaries have increased significantly in the past 2 years. You should be able to get 90K per annum with minimal effort, but that won't be enough to live like a low middle class German, if you plan to start a family. Housing is third-worldish, unless you can spend 2500-3000£ per month, weather is infernal and food has no flavour (unless you can afford to pay 2£ for an apple).
If you can get a visa to live in the EU, I'd consider Germany. If Brexit had one effect, it was to transform Berlin in a tech hub. It is much cheaper than London, salaries in tech are roughly the same and there's a large community of foreigners, so you don't need to learn German.
Interviews are relatively easy, salaries have increased significantly in the past 2 years. You should be able to get 90K per annum with minimal effort, but that won't be enough to live like a low middle class German, if you plan to start a family. Housing is third-worldish, unless you can spend 2500-3000£ per month, weather is infernal and food has no flavour (unless you can afford to pay 2£ for an apple).
If you can get a visa to live in the EU, I'd consider Germany. If Brexit had one effect, it was to transform Berlin in a tech hub. It is much cheaper than London, salaries in tech are roughly the same and there's a large community of foreigners, so you don't need to learn German.
> Life is extremely expensive, especially if you are planning to start a family. The UK outside of inner London is a non-place where only the locals can live, with the GDP per capita of an Eastern European country and nothing to do (apart from going to the local pub and taking a train to inner London).
This isn't even remotely true. Have you ever lived outside of London in the UK?
I live a few hours away from London by the fastest train and life is great. Free health care, great neighbours, the software engineer salary compared to many is very good, and there's loads to do. Cinemas, live gigs, local festivals, beautiful landscapes if you like the outdoors. There's just as much in the UK outside of London as there is in London.
There are many people who enjoy living in London, and that's great more power to them but non-London UK is definetely not "a non-place where only locals can live". I've moved around the UK loads and always been welcomed into new areas with friendly neighbours and such.
This isn't even remotely true. Have you ever lived outside of London in the UK?
I live a few hours away from London by the fastest train and life is great. Free health care, great neighbours, the software engineer salary compared to many is very good, and there's loads to do. Cinemas, live gigs, local festivals, beautiful landscapes if you like the outdoors. There's just as much in the UK outside of London as there is in London.
There are many people who enjoy living in London, and that's great more power to them but non-London UK is definetely not "a non-place where only locals can live". I've moved around the UK loads and always been welcomed into new areas with friendly neighbours and such.
I’m not saying that a Briton will be unhappy in Manchester or in Coventry, I’m saying that for me, a European that lived in Rome and Berlin and Dublin, these are non-places where nothing happens and where there’s nothing to do. When I say that only locals can live there I’m not referring to xenophobia (even if that’s a thing), but to the fact that in places like Harrow or Newcastle there is literally nothing to do, apart from going to the mall or to a pub that closes at 9PM.
You’ll barely find a pub still open at 11PM in Westminster (where I live), let alone Mortlake or Brentford. And don’t make me start on the beer selection. It’s hard to get a decent espresso in London and there are at best 10 places where you can get a edible pizza, I’d be surprised if there were any in the rest of the country. In Westminster I don’t have a single cinema at walking distance (it’s a 20 minute walk to Leicester Square), and I live in the area with more cinemas and theatres in the entire country. I want to reiterate that I live in what is probably the most expensive and most active area of the country, and compared to Rome or Berlin sometimes it feels like living in the middle of nowhere.
Outside of inner London, the UK is a gigantic periphery, with square kilometres of houses and not even a church or a café in a 10km radius. At best you get a shopping mall and a pub that closes at 9PM.
You’ll barely find a pub still open at 11PM in Westminster (where I live), let alone Mortlake or Brentford. And don’t make me start on the beer selection. It’s hard to get a decent espresso in London and there are at best 10 places where you can get a edible pizza, I’d be surprised if there were any in the rest of the country. In Westminster I don’t have a single cinema at walking distance (it’s a 20 minute walk to Leicester Square), and I live in the area with more cinemas and theatres in the entire country. I want to reiterate that I live in what is probably the most expensive and most active area of the country, and compared to Rome or Berlin sometimes it feels like living in the middle of nowhere.
Outside of inner London, the UK is a gigantic periphery, with square kilometres of houses and not even a church or a café in a 10km radius. At best you get a shopping mall and a pub that closes at 9PM.
This is simply not true. One could naïvely say the same for ANY country where it has not been explored.
It can't be all rollercoasters and silicon geography everywhere all the time.
Anyway, the UK has some of the most dense proportion of pubs per capita in the world. (Since that appears to be a concern in your comments)
It can't be all rollercoasters and silicon geography everywhere all the time.
Anyway, the UK has some of the most dense proportion of pubs per capita in the world. (Since that appears to be a concern in your comments)
That's not true of any country and it's not about rollercoaster and silicon geography. It's about having stuff to do that isn't going to the mall or to the N-th replica of a Weatherspoon or of a Young's pub. I've lived in the UK for more than 10 years, and I have indeed explored the country and experienced the nothingness that's the UK bar inner London.
On pubs, I was being generous by picking the most common, say, cultural attraction in the country. And yet, you get a better pub offer (in terms of variety and opening times) in Rome or Berlin or even Dublin. On density, try to re-compute that density at 11PM or check in how many of these pubs you can get a Chimay Rouge or a Franziskaner.
The countryside looks more like a nuclear test site than Tuscany or Latium, to name a few places I'm familiar with.
On pubs, I was being generous by picking the most common, say, cultural attraction in the country. And yet, you get a better pub offer (in terms of variety and opening times) in Rome or Berlin or even Dublin. On density, try to re-compute that density at 11PM or check in how many of these pubs you can get a Chimay Rouge or a Franziskaner.
The countryside looks more like a nuclear test site than Tuscany or Latium, to name a few places I'm familiar with.
I think we found the only non-Brit in this thread who actually lives in the UK (same here).
Today I was listening to a podcast where the host said something to the effect of "sun, stars, trees and open space are all that matters in life". For much of the UK, especially north of the Exe-Tees line, they have literally zero of those things.
Today I was listening to a podcast where the host said something to the effect of "sun, stars, trees and open space are all that matters in life". For much of the UK, especially north of the Exe-Tees line, they have literally zero of those things.
A lot of non-sense in the comments about TC/ money. I have worked at FAANG for a long time, both in the Bay Area and in London. My experience is:
- TC is lower, but how much lower is highly dependent on your level as the multiplier on base is smaller than the multiplier on stock refreshers.
If you are very senior, then the total difference will be ~10-15% (TC), which is arguably not that large.
- Private schools are generally cheaper in the UK.
- The UK does not have a property tax (!).
So, all in all, at very senior levels the difference is gonna be much less about TC/money and much more where you find more desirable to live.
- TC is lower, but how much lower is highly dependent on your level as the multiplier on base is smaller than the multiplier on stock refreshers.
If you are very senior, then the total difference will be ~10-15% (TC), which is arguably not that large.
- Private schools are generally cheaper in the UK.
- The UK does not have a property tax (!).
So, all in all, at very senior levels the difference is gonna be much less about TC/money and much more where you find more desirable to live.
> The UK does not have a property tax (!).
It most certainly does, and is called council tax, based on the value of your property, plus other factors
It most certainly does, and is called council tax, based on the value of your property, plus other factors
Council tax is paid by tenants and it’s ridiculously low compared to property prices.
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As you pay council tax as a tenant, it is a bit different from a property tax. Is more of a services tax. Also the valuation used is often very outdated and I believe regressive.
It is based on the value of your property in 1993, which can lead to some weird payment. Also it is generally much lower for expensive properties than Californias property tax.
Keep in mind the centre of gravity for the company will be the US. Very few firms, tech or otherwise are truly global in their approach. Most are taking product built and launched in the US out to the rest of world. This is why they almost constantly trip over local market quirks or differences (privacy being only 1 in Europe). Some firms are little more than sales/marketing operations outside the US.
I don't work at a bigger tech company myself (so take this with a pinch of salt), but have had plenty of interaction with people who do/did, and I'd summarise broadly:
- Salaries are generally a bit higher base than the rest of the permanent tech market, higher still total compensation, lower than the same companies in the US market, and lower overall than the contracting rates which are popular in the London tech market. You will definitely receive a reasonably comfortable and competitive salary, decent pension contributions, shares, and decent holiday entitlement.
- The interview process is the same nonsense as anywhere else.
- Engineering culture appears to be pretty relaxed. I've heard way more complaints about colleagues who don't pull their weight than I have about companies expecting personal sacrifice.
- There are some interesting teams and challenges but the selection is more limited than other markets.
YMMV.
- Salaries are generally a bit higher base than the rest of the permanent tech market, higher still total compensation, lower than the same companies in the US market, and lower overall than the contracting rates which are popular in the London tech market. You will definitely receive a reasonably comfortable and competitive salary, decent pension contributions, shares, and decent holiday entitlement.
- The interview process is the same nonsense as anywhere else.
- Engineering culture appears to be pretty relaxed. I've heard way more complaints about colleagues who don't pull their weight than I have about companies expecting personal sacrifice.
- There are some interesting teams and challenges but the selection is more limited than other markets.
YMMV.
I see so many comments about how pay is half of what it is in the US, London is just as expensive, and there is a shortage of engineers in London.
So what dark economic magic is causing this?
So what dark economic magic is causing this?
I work remotely for a large US tech company and live in Hampshire. Your salary will go *much* further if you are happy to live an hour or so outside London. My team is spread across US / Canada / Spain and UK so expect some meetings in the evening. From what I have seen the culture is quite similar in the UK offices as the US offices (same perks / food etc)
I'm from the UK too and was looking at how to remote work for US companies. How does the tax work? Did you register a company which gets paid your "salary" instead?
Most of the bigger US companies have a UK registered office so there are no tax implications in my case
That's great thank you. Are there any other complications I should be aware of?
Timezones are the big one. Beware end of day meetings in California. Also US style RSU grants seem to be taxed as income when they vest in the UK.
To get an idea of comp for companies in London, levels.fyi is a good starting point.
https://www.levels.fyi/Salaries/Software-Engineer/London/
Bottom line is that comp is way under what you would get for the same job in the US, but better than most other engineering jobs in London outside of certain finance roles. The market seems to have been going up a lot in the past couple of years though.
The interview process is pretty much the same as you get in the US. Lots of leetcode and system designs.
The interview process is pretty much the same as you get in the US. Lots of leetcode and system designs.
I still wonder how to adequately prep for system design. I feel leetcode is simply practice, but system design, I can't seem to get a full hang of it. And I've noticed in my day job that I am not getting enough experience with it.
I highly recommend working through https://dataintensive.net/ with a pencil to make notes. It has enough information to get you through basically any system design interview at a high level. After that you want to pick a tool for each category to learn in a bit more detail and screw around with if you think the interviewers might ask for details on your specific chosen technologies. Potentially learning the basic pros and cons would be enough. If you're going for more entry to mid level you likely won't need to get into the weeds of postgres index efficency etc in the interview.
Designing Data Intenstive systems will get you about 80-90% of the way there though (in the UK), certainly enough to get through the door as a mid engineer in many bigger places, although possibly not a FAANG.
Designing Data Intenstive systems will get you about 80-90% of the way there though (in the UK), certainly enough to get through the door as a mid engineer in many bigger places, although possibly not a FAANG.
From my experience, system design is not too bad if you have practice building systems.
You may read some of the interview preparation books to get an idea of the concepts and keywords the interviewer want to hear - but it's not too dissimilar to what you would do in practice.
System design correlates to architect level work.
Leetcoding instead requires you to know the basic patterns to use to solve the problems and either A. be a incredibly quick thinker or B. have memorised tons of exercises - especially if you're not super young and age and sleepless nights are starting to catch up with you.
Leetcoding doesn't correlate to work in any way. You just suck it up and spend 2 months preparing for it so you can have a nice looking CV and a truckload of money after you get the job.
I would weigh carefully whether you want to go to a FAANG though. Some people lucks out and they end up in a role where they do very little, others end up overworking.
You can make decent money contracting for less demanding companies (both interview and work-wise) and being tax smart (I would say almost as much as a FAANG, considering half goes in taxes).
You may read some of the interview preparation books to get an idea of the concepts and keywords the interviewer want to hear - but it's not too dissimilar to what you would do in practice.
System design correlates to architect level work.
Leetcoding instead requires you to know the basic patterns to use to solve the problems and either A. be a incredibly quick thinker or B. have memorised tons of exercises - especially if you're not super young and age and sleepless nights are starting to catch up with you.
Leetcoding doesn't correlate to work in any way. You just suck it up and spend 2 months preparing for it so you can have a nice looking CV and a truckload of money after you get the job.
I would weigh carefully whether you want to go to a FAANG though. Some people lucks out and they end up in a role where they do very little, others end up overworking.
You can make decent money contracting for less demanding companies (both interview and work-wise) and being tax smart (I would say almost as much as a FAANG, considering half goes in taxes).
You can also find salaries for NL and soon EU: https://techpays.eu/
In my experience levels.fyi is pretty shoddy for the UK, I'm pretty sure a lot of non-London employers are on there but lumped under London since there are no other UK cities listed.
I had the choice many years ago of working in London or somewhere in the US. I chose the first, and comparison to my friends who chose the second I know I made the right choice.
The UK is the best of both worlds: you have much higher salaries than in the rest of Europe, and a more functional state and society than in the US. If your plan is immigrating and settling somewhere or not being a workaholic then the choice is a no-brainer.
Keep in mind there is a wide range of salaries, with large FAANG companies and a few medium-sized ones in the upper part. I would check levels.fyi for real salaries instead of going for averages.
The rest of the country is beautiful. The people in thread telling you there's nothing good outside of London have never left the city.
I'm an Argentine immigrant to the UK who worked in large and medium tech companies. AMA!
The UK is the best of both worlds: you have much higher salaries than in the rest of Europe, and a more functional state and society than in the US. If your plan is immigrating and settling somewhere or not being a workaholic then the choice is a no-brainer.
Keep in mind there is a wide range of salaries, with large FAANG companies and a few medium-sized ones in the upper part. I would check levels.fyi for real salaries instead of going for averages.
The rest of the country is beautiful. The people in thread telling you there's nothing good outside of London have never left the city.
I'm an Argentine immigrant to the UK who worked in large and medium tech companies. AMA!
Nowadays it's called MAMAA instead of FAANG.[0]
[0] https://fortune.com/2021/10/29/faang-mamaa-jim-cramer-tech-f...
[0] https://fortune.com/2021/10/29/faang-mamaa-jim-cramer-tech-f...
no one calls it that
i see more and more people dropping the amazon A though
i see more and more people dropping the amazon A though
Anecdotally, I see FAAMG (dropping Netflix for Microsoft) more often, keeping Amazon and Apple.
not sure if it's for convenience or because it's the least desirable FANG to work for
I highly doubt that "MAMAA" will stick. Especially since it includes Microsoft.
There seems to have been a trend for people to really want to include Microsoft in recent years, and that’s part of it.
> Especially since it includes Microsoft.
FAANG includes Netflix, which everyone keeps repeating does not belong in this acronym.
FAANG includes Netflix, which everyone keeps repeating does not belong in this acronym.
Let's just go with MAAAM
Why don't they belong..? Their salaries are known to be among the highest of all.
As pointed out numerous times on HN [0], the term has historically represented a grouping of stocks of several tech companies, not how much they pay to their employees.
[0] For example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29785526
[0] For example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29785526
Do you work there? What has your experience been so far?
How competitive are they relative to the rest of the market in London?
How challenging is the interview process?
Culture/work-life balance?
Is the number of teams and the problems they work on limited because they're not in one of the primary US offices?