Nvidia Unveils 144-Core Grace CPU Superchip(tomshardware.com)
tomshardware.com
Nvidia Unveils 144-Core Grace CPU Superchip
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/nvidia-unveils-144-core-grace-cpu-superchip-claims-arm-chip-15x-faster-than-amds-epyc-rome
151 comments
Probably why they wanted to buy ARM and got shut down.
They can make their own ARM chip without buying ARM.
Well as we have seen, NVIDIA probably has got a killer ARM chip in the lab for release in 24 months.
They have tried and failed - Tegra
It failed in a tablet (which isn't that big outside of iPads to begin with TBH) and smartphone markets, but Tegra X1 chip is incredibly successful. Nintendo sold more than a 100 million of their Switch consoles, and they all are powered by Nvidia Tegra. And they never tried to do a full desktop chip.
At the cost of developing & manufacturing a competitive chip, would that make sense? I mean, if developing that chip takes half your opex, can you just give up margin on so much of your spend?
I don't think something like Graviton would come close to half their opex.
Ampere, linked elsewhere, made a competitive chip with just half a billion in total funding, and most of that was to scale up after the prototypes were built.
Who knows, though. Nvidia's R&D expenses skyrocketed over the last five years and maybe Grace is a large part of it.
Ampere, linked elsewhere, made a competitive chip with just half a billion in total funding, and most of that was to scale up after the prototypes were built.
Who knows, though. Nvidia's R&D expenses skyrocketed over the last five years and maybe Grace is a large part of it.
We already have cheap comodity ARM chips, it's called the Raspberry PI . It didn't make much of a dent in the X86 market. It's a niche of it's own in the consumer tinkerer and industrial embedded devices, but desktop computing is a tough market to crack, as explained by Linus Torvalds.
Having (non-Apple) ARM assault the X86 ecosystem will take a lot of out of the box thinking and, most importantly, cooperation for standardization amongst the HW vendors for open standards, which is exactly what Nvidia doesn't like to do, as they always prefer the locked down ecosystem approach, contrary to the openness that lead the comodization and popularity of the IBM PC clones.
Having (non-Apple) ARM assault the X86 ecosystem will take a lot of out of the box thinking and, most importantly, cooperation for standardization amongst the HW vendors for open standards, which is exactly what Nvidia doesn't like to do, as they always prefer the locked down ecosystem approach, contrary to the openness that lead the comodization and popularity of the IBM PC clones.
"We already have cheap comodity ARM chips, it's called the Raspberry PI"
It's like 5 times slower than the chip in my 10 year old laptop.
It's like 5 times slower than the chip in my 10 year old laptop.
Raspberry Pi 4 is not going to be 5 times slower than your 10 year old laptop, unless it was really specced out. IIRC, RPi 4 is about as fast as Core 2 Duo.
At only 10 watts btw
Funnily enough, a C2D T9600 (midrange mobile dual core at the time) is 5 times slower than a Core i7-3610qm (10 years old, entry level mobile quad core) :D
Intel performance jumps were crazy back then. You could expect +50% improvement between generations but you also gotta remember process manufacturing was moving fast back then too. 90nm to 65nm to 45nm within a few years.
It’s not that crazy, i7-3770K @ 153.48 GFLOPs vs Broadcom BCM2711 @ 13.5 GFLOPS. You can get various benchmarks to favor one over the other, but it’s still a large gap.
That era of I3-i7 was 20-150 Gflops.
Given the Pi is a low-cost device, it's not terrible unreasonable to at least compare it to the 20-50 Gflop CPUs of that period.
But it's also not exactly fair as the HW Decode for video really makes them feel significantly faster in most process intensive workloads for general consumers, and USB3/eMMC/Micro SD cards are significantly faster than the IO used on iX-2000 to iX-4000 era computers (and later).
The Pi4 is almost modern desktop capable for office/admin work. You're at about 25% CPU utilization using HW accelerated 1080p video on a Pi4. Still a little slow, but desktop software and most web apps run as well on a 4gb or 8gb Pi4 as they do on a low-end PC.
Given the Pi is a low-cost device, it's not terrible unreasonable to at least compare it to the 20-50 Gflop CPUs of that period.
But it's also not exactly fair as the HW Decode for video really makes them feel significantly faster in most process intensive workloads for general consumers, and USB3/eMMC/Micro SD cards are significantly faster than the IO used on iX-2000 to iX-4000 era computers (and later).
The Pi4 is almost modern desktop capable for office/admin work. You're at about 25% CPU utilization using HW accelerated 1080p video on a Pi4. Still a little slow, but desktop software and most web apps run as well on a 4gb or 8gb Pi4 as they do on a low-end PC.
> Given the Pi is a low-cost device, it's not terrible unreasonable to at least compare it to the 20-50 Gflop CPUs of that period.
It exists today, not 10 years ago. Todau I have to run 5 electron apps in the background before I can even start working, PI simply cannot handle even my basic day to day tasks.
It exists today, not 10 years ago. Todau I have to run 5 electron apps in the background before I can even start working, PI simply cannot handle even my basic day to day tasks.
Yeah, but you probably wouldn't buy a computer under $600 to begin with though, either, right?
You need at least 8gb of ram, and more than an 128gb of storage (i.e. eMMC and SDcards).
I very much doubt any sub $250 computer could really handle your basic day-to-day tasks (or anyone else' on HN).
ARM-based Chromebook's have already proven that Pi 4-comparable SoCs can do most basic computing needs for consumers.
The idea that essential computing needs can be met with a $100 Pi 400 and a $50 Screen is just kinda crazy.
You need at least 8gb of ram, and more than an 128gb of storage (i.e. eMMC and SDcards).
I very much doubt any sub $250 computer could really handle your basic day-to-day tasks (or anyone else' on HN).
ARM-based Chromebook's have already proven that Pi 4-comparable SoCs can do most basic computing needs for consumers.
The idea that essential computing needs can be met with a $100 Pi 400 and a $50 Screen is just kinda crazy.
I don’t think most people would be happy with a laptop that had half the processing power of an ultra low end laptop from 10 years ago.
But the better comparison for a Pi 4 isn’t laptops it’s cellphones. The Pi 4 is comparable to ultra low end cellphones, but gets crushed by a midrange phone like a 2022 iPhone SE.
But the better comparison for a Pi 4 isn’t laptops it’s cellphones. The Pi 4 is comparable to ultra low end cellphones, but gets crushed by a midrange phone like a 2022 iPhone SE.
> Given the Pi is a low-cost device, it's not terrible unreasonable to at least compare it to the 20-50 Gflop CPUs of that period.
What specific chips do you have in mind? By that same benchmark, an i3-3210 has 58.9Gflops. So that's still 4x higher, and 8x higher per core.
What specific chips do you have in mind? By that same benchmark, an i3-3210 has 58.9Gflops. So that's still 4x higher, and 8x higher per core.
I was looking at this:
https://www.intel.com/content/dam/support/us/en/documents/pr...
Kinda just went with the bottom half of the 2010-2014 era chips.
https://www.intel.com/content/dam/support/us/en/documents/pr...
Kinda just went with the bottom half of the 2010-2014 era chips.
That list isn’t limited to actual laptop/desktop chips.
If it ends in E it’s an embedded chip for stuff like smart refrigerators etc. LE/LM are for even lower power devices.
I would suggest looking at actual cheap laptops from 2012 if you want to see what the low end actually looked like.
If it ends in E it’s an embedded chip for stuff like smart refrigerators etc. LE/LM are for even lower power devices.
I would suggest looking at actual cheap laptops from 2012 if you want to see what the low end actually looked like.
A lot of the sub 50 GFLOP stuff were low-end Laptop chips with regular M-suffixes.
These are mobile Ivybridge chips, they were not snappy, and as late as 2013 release dates for sub 50 GFLOPs.
These are mobile Ivybridge chips, they were not snappy, and as late as 2013 release dates for sub 50 GFLOPs.
10 years ago was 2012. You got your years wrong. Core 2 Duo was 2006. You'd probably be thinking about 16 years ago.
ClumsyPilot5hoursago:
Sorry to pop your bubble but you are absolutely mistaken.
The first revision of the Pi was slow as hell, it's true.
With version 3b and newer I was pleasantly surprised with how quick and responsive the Pi platform has become. It certainly feels faster or at least comparable to the Chromebook Ireceived at Google IO in 2013.
Sorry to pop your bubble but you are absolutely mistaken.
The first revision of the Pi was slow as hell, it's true.
With version 3b and newer I was pleasantly surprised with how quick and responsive the Pi platform has become. It certainly feels faster or at least comparable to the Chromebook Ireceived at Google IO in 2013.
You are not popping my buble, i have every version of raspberries and use them for projects.
Okay, I guess we've had different experience but I don't profess the level of expertise which you have. Thanks for letting me know!
> We already have cheap comodity ARM chips, it's called the Raspberry PI .
No we don't, and no it's not. At least not as far as the mass consumer is concerned.
Show me where a consumer can walk into Best Buy and purchase a PC with a decently powerful and inexpensive ARM processor powering it in place of Intel or AMD. That's something that Nvidia can actually make happen given its resources. The organization behind the Raspberry PI is microscopic by comparison, they have no resources to manage such an enormous consumer front (not even remotely close in fact).
Your premise about the Raspberry PI is like techies on HN pretending that there's no need for x y z product/service, because you can just run your own social network on a machine in your closet at home, you can just run your own file server, you can just run your own mail server. No, consumers are never going to do that en masse. And consumers are never going to lean on the Raspberry PI to assemble their own machines either in massive quantities; that has to be a comprehensive, packaged product sold to them via retail that they plug in and use with zero assembly or hands-on customization required. It has to be relatively inexpensive and powerful enough to undercut and compete with what Intel and AMD bring to the table. Raspberry PI isn't even in the discussion.
No we don't, and no it's not. At least not as far as the mass consumer is concerned.
Show me where a consumer can walk into Best Buy and purchase a PC with a decently powerful and inexpensive ARM processor powering it in place of Intel or AMD. That's something that Nvidia can actually make happen given its resources. The organization behind the Raspberry PI is microscopic by comparison, they have no resources to manage such an enormous consumer front (not even remotely close in fact).
Your premise about the Raspberry PI is like techies on HN pretending that there's no need for x y z product/service, because you can just run your own social network on a machine in your closet at home, you can just run your own file server, you can just run your own mail server. No, consumers are never going to do that en masse. And consumers are never going to lean on the Raspberry PI to assemble their own machines either in massive quantities; that has to be a comprehensive, packaged product sold to them via retail that they plug in and use with zero assembly or hands-on customization required. It has to be relatively inexpensive and powerful enough to undercut and compete with what Intel and AMD bring to the table. Raspberry PI isn't even in the discussion.
Uhh. The ARM-based M1 Mac mini is literally sold at Best Buy for under $700.
It will run circles around any desktop PC within the same price range.
And yes, the Raspberry Pi 4/400 is perfectly usable for general desktop computing for students. The default desktop OS is intuitive and it includes modern browsers, can watch Netflix/Disney+ DRM media, and run LibreOffice or WPS Office.
Similarly, the Pine64 Pinebook Pro is actually quite serviceable for general desktop use at < $250, but you can also buy a $999 M1 MacBook Air at Best Buy if your needs cannot be satisfied by sub $250 computers.
It will run circles around any desktop PC within the same price range.
And yes, the Raspberry Pi 4/400 is perfectly usable for general desktop computing for students. The default desktop OS is intuitive and it includes modern browsers, can watch Netflix/Disney+ DRM media, and run LibreOffice or WPS Office.
Similarly, the Pine64 Pinebook Pro is actually quite serviceable for general desktop use at < $250, but you can also buy a $999 M1 MacBook Air at Best Buy if your needs cannot be satisfied by sub $250 computers.
You can also buy mini nuc boxes with amd chips which will run circuses around the Mac mini for gaming.
Afaik the raspberry PI can't hardware accelerate stuff like Netflix in Browser so video watching experience is pretty ass.
You can do 1080p on the Pi4.
https://itnext.io/the-2021-onward-guide-to-install-netflix-o...
Edit:
I've personally done it in browser. It works.
https://itnext.io/the-2021-onward-guide-to-install-netflix-o...
Edit:
I've personally done it in browser. It works.
Sure, but only once you tinker with it, not out if the box with Raspbian.
Doing 3 commands on Raspberry Pi OS to update the OS to the latest version and install a single program is not tinkering.
sudo apt update sudo apt full-upgrade sudo apt install libwidevinecdm0
There's no configuration to edit/change. There's no credit card or account setup necessary to download the app. This is objectively easier than setting up a new android device.
sudo apt update sudo apt full-upgrade sudo apt install libwidevinecdm0
There's no configuration to edit/change. There's no credit card or account setup necessary to download the app. This is objectively easier than setting up a new android device.
Your average consumer won't want to run commands in there terminal to get a usable experience, regardless of how easy it is for you and me and everyone here.
I've done it on Raspberry Pi OS.
Edit:
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/raspberry-pi-widevine
Edit:
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/raspberry-pi-widevine
Like I said, you have to tinker with it first. Your average Walmart buyer doesn't want to Google tutorials and do stuff from the command line to get HW accelerated YouTube and Netflix when every $200 Android phone can do that out of the box without any tinkering.
HW accelerated Youtube already works out of the box on Raspberry Pi OS.
It is less complicated to setup a Raspberry Pi than install Windows 11.
Your average Walmart buyers don't even run antivirus, setup Google/Apply/Samsung Pay, install Microsoft Office, or know how to make a Windows 10/11 USB installer.
$200 Android phones are notorious for not actually working correctly in getting apps to run.
It is less complicated to setup a Raspberry Pi than install Windows 11.
Your average Walmart buyers don't even run antivirus, setup Google/Apply/Samsung Pay, install Microsoft Office, or know how to make a Windows 10/11 USB installer.
$200 Android phones are notorious for not actually working correctly in getting apps to run.
>HW accelerated Youtube already works out of the box on Raspberry Pi OS.
Yeah, only if you run some commands in the terminal from a tutorial, to enable that. That's where you loose most average joe consumers.
>It is less complicated to setup a Raspberry Pi than install Windows 11.
Your average consumer has no idea and no intention on installing an OS, that's why all machines at Walmart come with one preinstalled including Macs and PC Laptops.
>$200 Android phones are notorious for not actually working correctly in getting apps to run.
Funny, I have a 200 EUro Android phone that runs everything correctly including HW accelerated Youtube and Netflix out of the box. I guess your $200 Android phones are just broken somehow. Maybe return them or file a RMA ticket.
Yeah, only if you run some commands in the terminal from a tutorial, to enable that. That's where you loose most average joe consumers.
>It is less complicated to setup a Raspberry Pi than install Windows 11.
Your average consumer has no idea and no intention on installing an OS, that's why all machines at Walmart come with one preinstalled including Macs and PC Laptops.
>$200 Android phones are notorious for not actually working correctly in getting apps to run.
Funny, I have a 200 EUro Android phone that runs everything correctly including HW accelerated Youtube and Netflix out of the box. I guess your $200 Android phones are just broken somehow. Maybe return them or file a RMA ticket.
Well the Macs are marketed to consumers, the Pi and the Pinebook are not - they're seen as techie or hobbyist Linux devices. The general consumer looking for a non-Apple computer would simply dismiss these options and pick up a "regular" x86, even if the cheap ARM machine may fit their needs.
Regardless, Mac minis go on sale for under $600 and provide probably the best consumer computing experience in the world for the least amount of money.
The guy saying he can't go into Best Buy and buy a consumer ARM machine has ignored the last 2 years.
The guy saying he can't go into Best Buy and buy a consumer ARM machine has ignored the last 2 years.
[deleted]
Also honorable mention: Arm-based chromebooks, for some purposes.
> Uhh. The ARM-based M1 Mac mini is literally sold at Best Buy for under $700.
So basically two months of salary for the average person in Portugal, and many more months in lesser fortunate parts of the globe.
So basically two months of salary for the average person in Portugal, and many more months in lesser fortunate parts of the globe.
While Portugal has one of the lowest average salaries in Europe, it’s still EUR 1100 Net. That’s not the same as USD 350.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_...
If you are lucky enough to have an university degree.
What’s your point exactly? Portugal’s average wage is nowhere near $350, regardless of where you want to move the goalposts next. It invalidates your assertion that the average worker need 2 months to get a Mac Mini. Note that nobody said they were free, or a miracle cure to anything. Just that they were an example of ARM computers targeted at consumers that one could get from Best Buy.
If you don’t mean ‘average’ maybe use some other measure.
I do mean the average know to most Portuguese folks, not numbers that fit the agenda of Apple sales people.
And I bet most fellow country folks won't contradict me.
And I bet most fellow country folks won't contradict me.
What’s the point you’re trying to make? Poor people can’t afford bleeding edge tech out of one month’s salary?
Apple doesn’t care, and they have never cared about this. There’s no profit in making ultra affordable state of the art electronics.
Apple doesn’t care, and they have never cared about this. There’s no profit in making ultra affordable state of the art electronics.
Exactly, Apple fanboys should stop selling M1 as the solution of all computing problems.
No. The M1 MacBooks are excellent price/performance, and more importantly, they are pretty cheap for what they are.
You cannot ask for a good ARM laptop, and then when people suggest a M1 MacBook which costs under $1000, and can often be found on sale for even less suddenly say “It’s expensive and poor people cannot afford it”.
It doesn’t matter.
You cannot ask for a good ARM laptop, and then when people suggest a M1 MacBook which costs under $1000, and can often be found on sale for even less suddenly say “It’s expensive and poor people cannot afford it”.
It doesn’t matter.
Not sure if anyone made that claim in this thread.
It is however true that "an average person in portugal" can get around 1.5 mac mini m1 and not 0.5 as you claimed. Given that a computer may easily last someone 10 years of usage, and that its a tool people use to earn money, it does not seem relatively expensive.
It is however true that "an average person in portugal" can get around 1.5 mac mini m1 and not 0.5 as you claimed. Given that a computer may easily last someone 10 years of usage, and that its a tool people use to earn money, it does not seem relatively expensive.
The median income in Portugal is less than the mean, but the difference is less than 20%. That still puts an M1 under a month's salary.
Also, let's not forget that Apple stuff is usually more expensive outside the US, especially if you live in poor countries with high inflation and high taxes on imports.
Are Portugal wages that low though? $350 is an average monthly wage in Russia, being lower than Romania or Bulgaria. I doubt the average Portuguese is that broke.
Are Portugal wages that low though? $350 is an average monthly wage in Russia, being lower than Romania or Bulgaria. I doubt the average Portuguese is that broke.
Not that changes the bar of your argument, but it seems really low. I don't know this website, but it seems to indicate 2750 eur as average salary. http://www.salaryexplorer.com/salary-survey.php?loc=174&loct...
If you are lucky to have an university degree, and not working out of green receipts, where you are "freelancer" but actually only have one customer.
2750 Euros average salary seems pretty high for Portugal. Did they only survey those with great corporate jobs?
Yes, they are currently around 400 euros before taxes.
In many companies you will be getting around 1000 euros for a job out of university.
In many companies you will be getting around 1000 euros for a job out of university.
Minimum wage in Portugal is $740 Euro per month.
That's nowhere near the median or average.
That's nowhere near the median or average.
Yeah when you are on a proper contract.
Wasn't aware Best Buy was in Portugal.
Also, It's half a months Average Salary in Portugal.
Edit:
https://themacindex.com/variants/MGNR3/mac-mini-m1-256gb?cur...
Also, It's half a months Average Salary in Portugal.
Edit:
https://themacindex.com/variants/MGNR3/mac-mini-m1-256gb?cur...
If you are lucky to have an university degree, and not working out of green receipts, where you are "freelancer" but actually only have one customer.
You're young and just starting out, and its not easy coming out of CoViD and all the other stuff that's going on.
But your arguments don't match actual data, your situation is an outlier as of 2022.
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...
The Median or Average income in Portugal can afford an M1 Mac mini, and it is far less than 1 months wages. It also lasts for 5+ years.
But your arguments don't match actual data, your situation is an outlier as of 2022.
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...
The Median or Average income in Portugal can afford an M1 Mac mini, and it is far less than 1 months wages. It also lasts for 5+ years.
>It also lasts for 5+ years.
Yeah, good luck with that. Warranty in EU is 2 years. If it breaks after that and you have no Apple care, you can basically throw it in the bin, as it's not built to be cheaply repaired, with Apple's stance being either buy Apple care or buy a new one when it breaks. Perfect e-waste generator.
Plus, the default storage of 256 GB on the base model is pitifully low for what is supposed to be a desktop PC in 2022, so you need to spec it up, increasing the price. I had that amount of storage on my entry level $400 HP ProBook in 2012! There's no way I'm paying more money for less storage, after 10 years of progress.
Yeah, good luck with that. Warranty in EU is 2 years. If it breaks after that and you have no Apple care, you can basically throw it in the bin, as it's not built to be cheaply repaired, with Apple's stance being either buy Apple care or buy a new one when it breaks. Perfect e-waste generator.
Plus, the default storage of 256 GB on the base model is pitifully low for what is supposed to be a desktop PC in 2022, so you need to spec it up, increasing the price. I had that amount of storage on my entry level $400 HP ProBook in 2012! There's no way I'm paying more money for less storage, after 10 years of progress.
I think you are really overestimating what is available to consumers for under $1000 Euro/USD.
This is what is typically available for under $800 Euro for desktops in Europe:
https://www.worten.pt/informatica-e-acessorios/computadores/...
256gb is pretty standard outside of gaming/workstation class desktops all over the world. The M1 is twice the CPU of everything in the sub $800 USD/Euro market. It's not even comparable. Spend $60/year on AppleCare+ and you get warranty well beyond 2 years in Spain/France/etc.
I haven't had a PC component break in less than 4-5 years on custom builds or OTS systems. My Macs have lasted 7-10 years of functional use.
I really don't get any of your arguments in this discussion. It's like you haven't actually use a Raspberry Pi in 3-4 years, and just want to knock Apple or ARM-based computers in general.
Between $100-$700 USD there are multiple cheap ARM-based computers available for any level of consumer use. You can use a reliable but cheap Raspberry Pi 400 if you are budget constrained. You will have to install DRM software, just like we did with DVD player software DRM in the 2000s to make Netflix work if you go that route.
If that doesn't work for the consumer they get a $700 Mac mini and it will have all out-of-the-box functionality a consumer needs, and outperform everything else they could find retail under $1000.
We haven't even talked about Chromebook's because there's dozens of ARM-based Chromebook's that have already overtaken cheap Intel PCs for these markets. This isn't even opinion over what platform is "better", the market has already spoken, and cheap ARM-based PCes as well as powerful ARM-based PCs are the norm.
This is what is typically available for under $800 Euro for desktops in Europe:
https://www.worten.pt/informatica-e-acessorios/computadores/...
256gb is pretty standard outside of gaming/workstation class desktops all over the world. The M1 is twice the CPU of everything in the sub $800 USD/Euro market. It's not even comparable. Spend $60/year on AppleCare+ and you get warranty well beyond 2 years in Spain/France/etc.
I haven't had a PC component break in less than 4-5 years on custom builds or OTS systems. My Macs have lasted 7-10 years of functional use.
I really don't get any of your arguments in this discussion. It's like you haven't actually use a Raspberry Pi in 3-4 years, and just want to knock Apple or ARM-based computers in general.
Between $100-$700 USD there are multiple cheap ARM-based computers available for any level of consumer use. You can use a reliable but cheap Raspberry Pi 400 if you are budget constrained. You will have to install DRM software, just like we did with DVD player software DRM in the 2000s to make Netflix work if you go that route.
If that doesn't work for the consumer they get a $700 Mac mini and it will have all out-of-the-box functionality a consumer needs, and outperform everything else they could find retail under $1000.
We haven't even talked about Chromebook's because there's dozens of ARM-based Chromebook's that have already overtaken cheap Intel PCs for these markets. This isn't even opinion over what platform is "better", the market has already spoken, and cheap ARM-based PCes as well as powerful ARM-based PCs are the norm.
>I think you are really overestimating what is available to consumers for under $1000 Euro/USD. This is what is typically available for under $800 Euro for desktops in Europe: https://www.worten.pt/informatica-e-acessorios/computadores/...
I'm not overestimating, and I hope you're joking with that link, as I've bought a Lenovo laptop with an 8 core Ryzen 5800U and 2560x1600 display, 16GB RAM and 1TB NVME SSD for ~750 EUROS[1] last Christmas.
Please stop exaggerating by cherry picking overpriced and outdated PC hardware as being the norm in Europe, it's not. Great PC hardware can be found at outstanding value if you look around a bit.
>256gb is pretty standard outside of gaming/workstation class desktops all over the world.
It's not though. I see many cheap laptops under 800 Euro with more than that. Many consumer want more RAM and more storage since they want to do more than just browse the web.
>The M1 is twice the CPU of everything in the sub $800 USD/Euro market.
Ok, but CPU cycles are in infinite supply regardless of your choice of CPU performance, but your base spec 8GB RAM and 256 GB of storage that come with that 800 Euro price tag are fixed and could be a limiting factor for some. My example gives you double the RAM and four times the storage. Good luck editing your favorite video on that powerful M1 chip if you run out of HDD space for it because you only have 256GB, and that's before the OS, swap and apps ate a chunk of it.
My Macs have lasted 7-10 years of functional use.
Yeah, at 7 -10 year old, you're talking about the old Intel ones which where easily repairable as they were based on CotS hardware. How can you guarantee the same for the M1 SoC systems which are barely 1 year old and built using custom parts when you factor in Apple's anti-repair and anti-consumer stance?
[1] https://altex.ro/laptop-lenovo-yoga-slim-7-13acn5-amd-ryzen-...
I'm not overestimating, and I hope you're joking with that link, as I've bought a Lenovo laptop with an 8 core Ryzen 5800U and 2560x1600 display, 16GB RAM and 1TB NVME SSD for ~750 EUROS[1] last Christmas.
Please stop exaggerating by cherry picking overpriced and outdated PC hardware as being the norm in Europe, it's not. Great PC hardware can be found at outstanding value if you look around a bit.
>256gb is pretty standard outside of gaming/workstation class desktops all over the world.
It's not though. I see many cheap laptops under 800 Euro with more than that. Many consumer want more RAM and more storage since they want to do more than just browse the web.
>The M1 is twice the CPU of everything in the sub $800 USD/Euro market.
Ok, but CPU cycles are in infinite supply regardless of your choice of CPU performance, but your base spec 8GB RAM and 256 GB of storage that come with that 800 Euro price tag are fixed and could be a limiting factor for some. My example gives you double the RAM and four times the storage. Good luck editing your favorite video on that powerful M1 chip if you run out of HDD space for it because you only have 256GB, and that's before the OS, swap and apps ate a chunk of it.
My Macs have lasted 7-10 years of functional use.
Yeah, at 7 -10 year old, you're talking about the old Intel ones which where easily repairable as they were based on CotS hardware. How can you guarantee the same for the M1 SoC systems which are barely 1 year old and built using custom parts when you factor in Apple's anti-repair and anti-consumer stance?
[1] https://altex.ro/laptop-lenovo-yoga-slim-7-13acn5-amd-ryzen-...
That's not a desktop.
That was on sale at Christmas.
That's the same price and performance as an M1 MacBook Air (slightly less actually under ideal circumstances).
It gets 75% the battery life of the M1 MacBook Air.
That has the same 2 year warranty in the EU.
It is currently not on sale for that price and is above 800 Euros -- Mac minis and MacBook Airs also go on sale for the same price.
The Portuguese guy still can't afford it, apparently.
I literally gave a link to a major Portuguese retailer in the contextual country with dozens of PCs listed. You gave a sale item in another country with a spec you prefer that has no bearing on the average consumer.
You are cherry picking badly.
That was on sale at Christmas.
That's the same price and performance as an M1 MacBook Air (slightly less actually under ideal circumstances).
It gets 75% the battery life of the M1 MacBook Air.
That has the same 2 year warranty in the EU.
It is currently not on sale for that price and is above 800 Euros -- Mac minis and MacBook Airs also go on sale for the same price.
The Portuguese guy still can't afford it, apparently.
I literally gave a link to a major Portuguese retailer in the contextual country with dozens of PCs listed. You gave a sale item in another country with a spec you prefer that has no bearing on the average consumer.
You are cherry picking badly.
2 people and one chicken.
Statistics say each one eats half of it.
You are all over the place asserting to know more than people that actually know the country, based on random statistics.
Statistics say each one eats half of it.
You are all over the place asserting to know more than people that actually know the country, based on random statistics.
I've lived in Spain and Italy as well as African and Middle Eastern Countries.
Your personal experience is not the average or median one.
Your personal experience is not the average or median one.
I am from Spain. Our first home PC in 2003 with 256MB of RAM, a Geforce 2MX 200/400 and some Athlon XP cost us over 600 Euro. That was a crappy low-endish machine.
700 Euro for a Mac Mini it's a bargain.
700 Euro for a Mac Mini it's a bargain.
So a guy with an agenda to sell Apple devices, otherwise you definitely would be aware of much people are actually able to afford them when not coming from upper class, or going into year long credits.
While I agree that Raspberry PI is not the same being able to buy PCs with an ARM chip - I must say you are over-reaching with your argument. Have a look at:
https://www.raspberrypi.com/products/raspberry-pi-400/
this is a small PC, fitting inside a keyboard, based on the Raspberry PI. No assembly needed other than connecting it to peripherals - but that's like any other PC. Other than the keyboard housing it, it comes with a mouse and a PSU.
It costs 100 USD and available from many vendors around the world, e.g.:
https://chicagodist.com/products/raspberry-pi-400-kit?src=ra...
https://www.raspberrypi.com/products/raspberry-pi-400/
this is a small PC, fitting inside a keyboard, based on the Raspberry PI. No assembly needed other than connecting it to peripherals - but that's like any other PC. Other than the keyboard housing it, it comes with a mouse and a PSU.
It costs 100 USD and available from many vendors around the world, e.g.:
https://chicagodist.com/products/raspberry-pi-400-kit?src=ra...
I agree most people won’t run a Raspberry Pi as a desktop. That is obviously true. I don’t think they were too far off the mark, though. Would the average person run a $300 ARM Chromebook? Probably. That exists today, too.
> Your premise about the Raspberry PI is like techies on HN pretending that there's no need for x y z product/service, because you can just run your own social network on a machine in your closet at home, you can just run your own file server, you can just run your own mail server. No, consumers are never going to do that en masse.
I used to be absolutely sure this could never, ever happen. It definitely can’t and won’t happen any time soon.
However, it’s clear that the promise of the home server came far too early. I think the sentiment a lot of people have is that even if someone sold the perfect products and software, nobody would ever want it. Sure, it would offer the user more autonomy and control, but it costs money and is a constant responsibility. Nobody is going to ever feel a need to go out and do that when they can just pay a monthly fee for someone else to take care of it.
Except people take that exact trade off all the time; Home ownership. Owning a home is also an expensive ordeal, extremely expensive at that, that comes with many responsibilities, and yet most people still long for the autonomy and control and other life benefits it has to offer. No individual has to own a house in most areas; you could rent, or buy a condominium unit, and have significantly less overall responsibility. I don’t think most people want to rent even if it was cheaper. Home ownership is a north star for many people.
For better or worse, computers and the internet don’t seem to be becoming any less important for society. Mega corps rise and fall, paradigms shift, prices fall, software evolves. There’s a whole lot of growing distrust for corporations and their governments in tech right now, even to the layperson, and definitely to lawmakers.
In the past few decades, people went out and bought expensive modems and big complicated desktop computers often just to experience the magic of the Internet. As far as I’m concerned, anything could still happen.
And after that, the year of the Linux desktop will surely follow.
> Your premise about the Raspberry PI is like techies on HN pretending that there's no need for x y z product/service, because you can just run your own social network on a machine in your closet at home, you can just run your own file server, you can just run your own mail server. No, consumers are never going to do that en masse.
I used to be absolutely sure this could never, ever happen. It definitely can’t and won’t happen any time soon.
However, it’s clear that the promise of the home server came far too early. I think the sentiment a lot of people have is that even if someone sold the perfect products and software, nobody would ever want it. Sure, it would offer the user more autonomy and control, but it costs money and is a constant responsibility. Nobody is going to ever feel a need to go out and do that when they can just pay a monthly fee for someone else to take care of it.
Except people take that exact trade off all the time; Home ownership. Owning a home is also an expensive ordeal, extremely expensive at that, that comes with many responsibilities, and yet most people still long for the autonomy and control and other life benefits it has to offer. No individual has to own a house in most areas; you could rent, or buy a condominium unit, and have significantly less overall responsibility. I don’t think most people want to rent even if it was cheaper. Home ownership is a north star for many people.
For better or worse, computers and the internet don’t seem to be becoming any less important for society. Mega corps rise and fall, paradigms shift, prices fall, software evolves. There’s a whole lot of growing distrust for corporations and their governments in tech right now, even to the layperson, and definitely to lawmakers.
In the past few decades, people went out and bought expensive modems and big complicated desktop computers often just to experience the magic of the Internet. As far as I’m concerned, anything could still happen.
And after that, the year of the Linux desktop will surely follow.
Surface pro x?
On the high end we have Graviton and M1, which are both exclusive to their creator. Just releasing something competitive with Graviton that's accessible to the whole industry would accelerate the shift substantially.
Where are the ARM instances on Google and Azure? Not to mention Oracle and IBM and other smaller cloud vendors. Companies running their own datacenters like Facebook and CloudFlare. Dedicated server providers too.
There's a lot of high end volume in this space to attack the margins of.
Nvidia prefers the locked down approach because it gives them a differentiated product with great margins. That doesn't mean they're incapable of a side project to torch the margins of their biggest competitors.
Where are the ARM instances on Google and Azure? Not to mention Oracle and IBM and other smaller cloud vendors. Companies running their own datacenters like Facebook and CloudFlare. Dedicated server providers too.
There's a lot of high end volume in this space to attack the margins of.
Nvidia prefers the locked down approach because it gives them a differentiated product with great margins. That doesn't mean they're incapable of a side project to torch the margins of their biggest competitors.
> Just releasing something competitive with Graviton that's accessible to the whole industry
Ampere Altra, which has even more cores.
> Where are the ARM instances on Google and Azure? Not to mention Oracle and IBM and other smaller cloud vendors.
Azure: stay tuned, it's soon. Oracle Cloud: already out since a while :)
Ampere Altra, which has even more cores.
> Where are the ARM instances on Google and Azure? Not to mention Oracle and IBM and other smaller cloud vendors.
Azure: stay tuned, it's soon. Oracle Cloud: already out since a while :)
The Altra does look great, but there's a spotty history of smaller players building products in this space and not making it. Nvidia has staying power, and nobody will be worried about whether they'll go bankrupt mid rollout.
I completely missed their deal with Oracle, though. That's pretty cool.
To be clear, in my opinion the shift is going to happen regardless of whether Nvidia steps in - I just think they could accelerate it significantly and it would benefit them to do so.
I completely missed their deal with Oracle, though. That's pretty cool.
To be clear, in my opinion the shift is going to happen regardless of whether Nvidia steps in - I just think they could accelerate it significantly and it would benefit them to do so.
And for IBM, they have their own architecture to look after, OpenPOWER.
One of the most amusing reasons why ARM fails to compete with x86 is that it simply isn't available. You have to go to specific vendors and get their specific flavor of ARM which means you must always consider a x86 fallback.
People aren't buying rpis to plug 3090s into.
How far are we from just having very nice and power efficient arm computers and laptops? I don't care about the X86 legacy, if I want something there I can simply buy a machine with that processor.
I just want a beefy ATX form factor PC or even a laptop with "standard components" that can run Linux and maybe some light office work or gaming.
Is this asking too much? Why are we still using X86 on the !OSX stuff?
I just want a beefy ATX form factor PC or even a laptop with "standard components" that can run Linux and maybe some light office work or gaming.
Is this asking too much? Why are we still using X86 on the !OSX stuff?
Apple hit it well and truely out of the park with their M1 and follow ons. No other company makes their own CPU cores. They license them from ARM. I suppose Qcomm or NVIDIA could take an ARM core and make a great Laptop/Desktop SoC but I think they dont have the capability to do so.
Also, IBM established and propagated the PC standard. That was adopted by many others. While there is a ARM standard for servers that is just started to gain some traction there is no Desktop/Laptop standard spec.
Also, IBM established and propagated the PC standard. That was adopted by many others. While there is a ARM standard for servers that is just started to gain some traction there is no Desktop/Laptop standard spec.
M1 arm64 Macbooks exist and are incredible.
> !OSX stuff
Though I’ve been messing about with emulation and it’s fine.
Though I’ve been messing about with emulation and it’s fine.
For those that happen to live in first world countries or have the luck to have their employer sponsor their work laptops.
An M1 Macbook Air is 900euros, not a lot more than a similar specs Windows laptop.
Most people are just fine with a 300 euro Windows laptop.
900 euros can be several months of salary in less fortunate countries.
900 euros can be several months of salary in less fortunate countries.
I understand, but in that case I don't think we should compare/expect state of the art technology and build quality in that price range (unless there are specific discounts/incentives for those regions).
I think that the point of your initial comment was not related to the subject, which was more about the performance part than the pricing part.
I think that the point of your initial comment was not related to the subject, which was more about the performance part than the pricing part.
Because the majority of the world cares about their binaries.
How could you tell when they have no option to switch to? Emulation has been done successfully for decades.
Apparently not successfully enough to move people away from Intel en mass.
If it's done well it is successful. Rosetta 2 is great and it works while Windows emulation sucks for various reasons(for example it wasn't possible to run 64 bit apps until one year ago). The problem is that not enough companies are interested in doing it well.
To where? The chips only started existing with M1. No one has actually had an attractive processor unless you either count Itanium being good on some workloads or maybe some RISC machines a very very long time ago.
> [still using X86] because the majority of the world cares about their binaries
Could you please elaborate?
Could you please elaborate?
Thinkpad is starting an ARM line in May,
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30497616 ("Lenovo announces the first Arm-based ThinkPad", 248 comments)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30497616 ("Lenovo announces the first Arm-based ThinkPad", 248 comments)
Man, I hope those get official Linux support. :)
The 2023 Nuvia based Qualcomm Laptop SOCs are coming in 2023 and could bring M1-Like performance to windows. https://www.anandtech.com/show/17075/qualcomm-x-nuvia-silico...
Remember though that Qualcomm also claimed their first-gen 8cx with Windows offered performance competitive with a mobile Core i5 - though this was laughed out of the room when reviewers got it.
Astonishingly close...very quietly, because it requires a spectrum of indepth knowledge across Android x Apple ecosystems...the mid-range Android phone chip maker, MediaTek, has a chip that beats Intel 11th gen and M1. (not the fancier M1s like the "duct tape two together" for Mac Studio). 2 years out, you're looking at a real shift, presuming QC's acquisition of the Apple diaspora's desktop ARM cpu startup goes well. (I presume nothing when it comes to QC)
> MediaTek, has a chip that beats Intel 11th gen and M1.
Sincerely interested. Please provide source.
Sincerely interested. Please provide source.
[deleted]
What have Android and Apple got to do with arm desktop machines?
I am guessing it is due to Apple and Android are the companies/software stacks that are putting arm devices in people's hands.
Which MTK SoC are you referring to?
I'm guessing it's much easier for Apple since they do one set of drivers for chip peripherals/bridges/etc, one way of doing boot, bios setup, etc.
In the generic PC space, the operating systems have to deal with however each manufacturer chooses to do things. So it's harder for any one manufacturer to get enough leverage with Microsoft and Linux to support their devices.
In the generic PC space, the operating systems have to deal with however each manufacturer chooses to do things. So it's harder for any one manufacturer to get enough leverage with Microsoft and Linux to support their devices.
It would be nice if every manufacturer adhered to a standard interface specification, like NVME, but for network adapters, video cards, audio, etc. So that one set of drivers would work for any combination of parts. It would greatly democratize OS development.
Apple spend decades building up to being ready for the apple silicon switch. The IP simply isn't there at the moment in the high performance space.
Arm know it works now, so maybe they can go bigger.
Arm know it works now, so maybe they can go bigger.
Wow! 144 cores combined with the power of ARM assembly ................
This is amazing! What a game changer! The software rendered demos one could code on this thing! I want one! :D
This is amazing! What a game changer! The software rendered demos one could code on this thing! I want one! :D
What kind of benefits would using large amount of HBM3 memory would have on the Grace CPU ? How big of an improvement in common tasks ?
Or is it just an overkill for a CPU, in general ? Have they solved the "Memory Wall" for CPU's with their current implementation ?
Or is it just an overkill for a CPU, in general ? Have they solved the "Memory Wall" for CPU's with their current implementation ?
[deleted]
Did they hire Chuck Moore ?
Previous discussion from 4 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30768704
How do they know that it's going to be the fastest chip in one year?
Frankly announcing anything about chip that (maybe?) will appear in one year is a bit... too far in the future, no?
Frankly announcing anything about chip that (maybe?) will appear in one year is a bit... too far in the future, no?
Asking the real question here: will Nintendo use those Grace CPUs for the Switch successor?
Grace is a very big Tegra, it's just not intended for that.
NVIDIA has small Tegra chips too, with the Jetson Nano next coming next year. That might use the same SoC as an upcoming Switch.
(and Orin/Atlan as more medium-sized Tegra)
NVIDIA has small Tegra chips too, with the Jetson Nano next coming next year. That might use the same SoC as an upcoming Switch.
(and Orin/Atlan as more medium-sized Tegra)
Considering this Grace CPU is competing with large scale server compute processors like AMD’s Epyc Rome chips, I would have to say that it is VERY unlikely we’ll see this in a switch (or successor) of any kind.
These Grace CPU’s are not architected or designed for low power mobile or consoles in any way.
These Grace CPU’s are not architected or designed for low power mobile or consoles in any way.
The doesn't seem very rational, Nintendo doesn't aim for prettiest graphics or best hardware, they aim for best family friendly game experience, without focusing on graphics or hardware. The Switch prove that their strategy works out as well, so they are unlikely to suddenly change tactics.
PlayStation and Xbox do aim for best graphics with the best hardware though, so they are more likely to go with this than anyone else.
PlayStation and Xbox do aim for best graphics with the best hardware though, so they are more likely to go with this than anyone else.
Yes that was their strategy up to now, but they are increasingly obscolete. Nintendo is stuck in the past, the Switch (2017) has games with lower visuals than the PS3 (2006). (I believe the switch CPU to be on par or superior but the GPU to be noticeably inferior)
People are tasting the incredible graphics of the PS5 and in contrast the switch is irrelevant. I agree that games can be fun without needing realistic graphisms however for maximizing fun a PS4 level performance is the bare minimum.
PC / xbox+playstation / switch are almost completely separate markets. It has never entered my mind that "I should buy an xbox/playstation", not once. I have had NES, (original) game boy, SNES, gamecube, wii, and now a switch. It's not about the switch being cheaper than current-gen high-end consoles, it's that the games that are exclusives for those consoles just don't appeal to me.
Please tell me the switch games that you enjoyed the most. I am able to properly emulate the switch on yuzu but I just can't find enjoyable games, contrary to on my PS3 emulator.
The entire first party library of Nintendo Games have been great, many of which are ports from the WiiU.
My personal favorites: Mario Odyssey, Mario 3D World, Luigi's Mansion 3, Breath of the Wild, Pikmin3, and Captain Toad.
My son is really into Splatoon 2, Minecraft Dungeons, and Mario Maker.
My wife plays all the Pokémon/Animal Crossing/Harvest Moon games.
We'll be playing the new Kirby game this evening.
My personal favorites: Mario Odyssey, Mario 3D World, Luigi's Mansion 3, Breath of the Wild, Pikmin3, and Captain Toad.
My son is really into Splatoon 2, Minecraft Dungeons, and Mario Maker.
My wife plays all the Pokémon/Animal Crossing/Harvest Moon games.
We'll be playing the new Kirby game this evening.
Thanks for sharing, I'll give them a try (this and crash bandicoot). I already played breath of the wild and it is a technological prodigy however I felt the open world was too open/free and not enough filled with narration.
That's why I bought and played Breath of the Wild. It sure beats an experience like GTA V's single player where I can't seem to go five minutes without some NPC talking. I dreaded everytime I opened a car door.
I've either played and didn't like, or never played to begin with, almost every single game mentioned in the sibling comments.
My favorites: Towerfall, Bastion, Transistor, Pikuniku, untitled goose game, Stardew valley, Kentucky route zero.
Towerfall is like Smash Brothers Lite Lite, I love it.
My favorites: Towerfall, Bastion, Transistor, Pikuniku, untitled goose game, Stardew valley, Kentucky route zero.
Towerfall is like Smash Brothers Lite Lite, I love it.
There are many, most of which are wildly famous by now: Zelda: Breath of the Wild, Super Mario Odyssey, Smash Ultimate, Animal Crossings: New Horizons...
Even a lot of the not-so-famous titles are great, like Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle.
Even a lot of the not-so-famous titles are great, like Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle.
You don't get the market Nintendo is catering at all. I have bought 3 Switches because the games are fun and they have age appropriate content. I will probably buy another two more Switches by the end of the year, but not a single PS5 or Xbox One *.
Not really seeing it, the switch is targeting and reaching a lot of people who won't buy Playstations. A next-gen Switch with better performance wouldn't need to compete head-to-head with the Playstation on visuals either to be successful. (Given you rank Switch below PS3, if visuals were so important, shouldn't Switch have been handily beaten even by the PS4?)
There are significantly more sales of PS4 than switch, also nintendo live on its laurels but people will become tired of the stagnation eventually
> There are significantly more sales of PS4 than switch
With a 4 year head start, the PS4 has 116.9m, the Switch has 103.5m[1]. Averaged over the years, the PS4 is lagging the Switch by nearly half - 14.6m/y vs 25.9m/y, no?
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_game_cons...
With a 4 year head start, the PS4 has 116.9m, the Switch has 103.5m[1]. Averaged over the years, the PS4 is lagging the Switch by nearly half - 14.6m/y vs 25.9m/y, no?
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_game_cons...
Right
Why are you assuming that Nintendo is stagnating in comparison? Yes, in the meantime new generations of other consoles have come out, but after equally long gaps on their side. (PS4->PS5 was 9 years, and Switch will outsell PS4 over its lifetime easily)
And the Switch users I know generally don't care about PS5 graphics at all. It's not really the same market.
And the Switch users I know generally don't care about PS5 graphics at all. It's not really the same market.
PS4: ~117M sold in 9 years
Switch: ~104M sold in 5 years
Switch is averaging 20M units/year and PS4 is averaging 13M units/year.
Switch is averaging 20M units/year and PS4 is averaging 13M units/year.
PS4 has sold 117m units (around 1m in the past year) and Switch has sold 104m so far (around 20m in the past year). You can bet Switch will overtake it very soon...
That's exactly what the parent is talking about. Nintendo is focusing on fun, not graphics. And it's working, they have a huge market of users.
And it seems you're not the target if you cannot enjoy a game without good graphisms.
And it seems you're not the target if you cannot enjoy a game without good graphisms.
Nintendo Switch has sold 100m+ units - over 20m of which were in the last year. It's by no means obsolete, it just serves a different market than the one you're interested in.
Maybe not a switch but a fast Arm (not a dinky tegra) processor would be a game-changer any steam deck 2.0 type of device.
It feels like the age of "personal" supercomputers is coming now :D!
Seems the 1.5x vs EPYC claim is from SPECrate_2017_int_base benchmark.
AND it seems to be based on a simulation which can be fudged in all sorts of ways. Nvidia’s track record with cpus is spotty at best. Not sure how much weight to put on these claims, at least until there is a shipping product.
> Nvidia based this claim on a pre-silicon simulation that predicts the Grace CPU at a score of 740+ (370 per chip).
> Nvidia based this claim on a pre-silicon simulation that predicts the Grace CPU at a score of 740+ (370 per chip).
afaik that bench still widely used but the epyc rome they mentioned is zen 2. As i understand it is still slightly faster than milan series but the power consumption is half of it. Here is benchmark result of 7713p https://www.spec.org/cpu2017/results/res2021q4/cpu2017-20210...
It seems like 2P Milan would be the suitable comparison, based on core count, wattage, CXL link, and so on.
you are right here 7763 result searchable when selecting processor 870ish in general, btw CXL not there yet
https://www.spec.org/cgi-bin/osgresults?conf=cpu2017
https://www.spec.org/cgi-bin/osgresults?conf=cpu2017
Seems to be a great fit for Genetic Programming.
KennyBlanken(1)
If you kill the x86 monopoly, CUDA could easily be the last proprietary lock in for general purpose compute. Not a bad place to be.