A few concrete arguments for e-bikes(tbray.org)
tbray.org
A few concrete arguments for e-bikes
https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/202x/2022/04/18/E-Bike
116 comments
> Riding a sustained 20mph with a bicycle helmet without first developing the requisite skill to go that fast on a regular basis exposes you to much higher risk.
It's not really that "sustained" in reality. Sure you need to be careful, but it's not like you are going to risk flying off your bike if you hit a pebble.
There is a hell of a lot of bike snobbery coming from the roady groups when it comes to ebikes and they act like if you don't put in the physical conditioning necessary to ride that fast you have no business on a ebike.
The whole thing is pretty silly.
Grandmas and mothers and kids have been riding 50cc scooters all over the planet for decades in public roads in speeds in excess of 30mph without having their faces explode.
> - $3300 + $1000 for upgrades/maintenance to cover 4k km works out to $1/km which is fairly expensive.
If you a DIY sort, which you should if you are considering using bicycles as viable transportaation, then a reasonable ebike that will handle 20-40 thousand miles can be put together for under 2 grand.
Much less if you don't mind replacing throttles that wear out or having ugly wiring.
The expensive part is the battery. That is the heart of the bike. Everything else is almost incidental.
If you are worried about theft a used mountain bike and a 200 dollar kit will get you were you are going just as well as a 4000 dollar bicycle. The expensive part, the battery, you take with you.
It's not really that "sustained" in reality. Sure you need to be careful, but it's not like you are going to risk flying off your bike if you hit a pebble.
There is a hell of a lot of bike snobbery coming from the roady groups when it comes to ebikes and they act like if you don't put in the physical conditioning necessary to ride that fast you have no business on a ebike.
The whole thing is pretty silly.
Grandmas and mothers and kids have been riding 50cc scooters all over the planet for decades in public roads in speeds in excess of 30mph without having their faces explode.
> - $3300 + $1000 for upgrades/maintenance to cover 4k km works out to $1/km which is fairly expensive.
If you a DIY sort, which you should if you are considering using bicycles as viable transportaation, then a reasonable ebike that will handle 20-40 thousand miles can be put together for under 2 grand.
Much less if you don't mind replacing throttles that wear out or having ugly wiring.
The expensive part is the battery. That is the heart of the bike. Everything else is almost incidental.
If you are worried about theft a used mountain bike and a 200 dollar kit will get you were you are going just as well as a 4000 dollar bicycle. The expensive part, the battery, you take with you.
I'm one of those lycra clad roadies and even a carefully planned load of groceries in a messenger bag, nevermind loaded panniers, weighs you down a lot. OK on flat terrain, but the hills in my town would make it pretty miserable. If I were to use a bike for regular errands for groceries, taking trash to the transfer station, shirts to the cleaners, etc. an e-bike would be perfect.
The thing about calculating per mile costs is:
1. e-bikes are on a downward cost track, interrupted by COVID supply chain issues. But, recently, you can get a Giant e-bike for under $2000, which is very reasonable. Lightness is expensive. As long as you do not need to lift your e-bike, costs can continue to come down.
2. They are for local journeys. I would not commute from the exurbs on an e-bike. Up to 10 miles is a reasonable distance.
The thing about calculating per mile costs is:
1. e-bikes are on a downward cost track, interrupted by COVID supply chain issues. But, recently, you can get a Giant e-bike for under $2000, which is very reasonable. Lightness is expensive. As long as you do not need to lift your e-bike, costs can continue to come down.
2. They are for local journeys. I would not commute from the exurbs on an e-bike. Up to 10 miles is a reasonable distance.
E-bikes eliminate two factors that inexperienced bikers struggle with: wind and hills, two things that a couple hundred extra watts really help with even when limited to 20-25mph.
Especially if you are towing a burley or have panniers or aren't in full spandex. The wind resistance really adds up.
Ebikes are such an effective and useful form of urban transportation that very efficiently leverages what battery supply we have for cheap and FUN travel. To the point that the government should make this the "summer of the ebike" and offer a $500 rebate on e-bikes this summer.
When I lived in a downtown, I could not wait for bikeable weather to come (midwestern winters). A city shrinks by a factor of ten over walking, and when you consider you often can park right by your destination for free, while cars almost always have a 10-15 minute penalty for finding parking and walking from the parking spot.
The convenience range of an e-bike that can do 250-300 watts over a regular bike is probably 20-30 miles further, especially when often bike routes can be more direct.
And an ebike gives the horsepower to cart around rain gear.
For things like watching marathons, parades, and festivals (as long as you aren't THAT GUY trying to walk his bike through shoulder to shoulder crowds), they are unmatched. You get so much more of the experience.
Of course so much of this is because people don't bike, maybe things would change if a lot more people did.
If you are ever doing the tourist thing in Washington DC, their city is perfect for their bike share service. It was AWESOME. Being able to go monument to monument, smithsonian to smithsonian, to the zoo, to the hotel, to restaurants, was amazing on a bike with no hassles with car parking, the roundabouts in cars, or dealing with the metro schedules and line transfers. Bonus: you can go to Georgetown easily which doesn't have a metro.
Manhattan/NYC SHOULD be like this, but it wasn't in the same league as DC last I did it. Brooklyn was still not well served.
Manhattan/NYC would be much better with an ebike. It would shrink Manhattan neighborhoods by a huge amount.
Especially if you are towing a burley or have panniers or aren't in full spandex. The wind resistance really adds up.
Ebikes are such an effective and useful form of urban transportation that very efficiently leverages what battery supply we have for cheap and FUN travel. To the point that the government should make this the "summer of the ebike" and offer a $500 rebate on e-bikes this summer.
When I lived in a downtown, I could not wait for bikeable weather to come (midwestern winters). A city shrinks by a factor of ten over walking, and when you consider you often can park right by your destination for free, while cars almost always have a 10-15 minute penalty for finding parking and walking from the parking spot.
The convenience range of an e-bike that can do 250-300 watts over a regular bike is probably 20-30 miles further, especially when often bike routes can be more direct.
And an ebike gives the horsepower to cart around rain gear.
For things like watching marathons, parades, and festivals (as long as you aren't THAT GUY trying to walk his bike through shoulder to shoulder crowds), they are unmatched. You get so much more of the experience.
Of course so much of this is because people don't bike, maybe things would change if a lot more people did.
If you are ever doing the tourist thing in Washington DC, their city is perfect for their bike share service. It was AWESOME. Being able to go monument to monument, smithsonian to smithsonian, to the zoo, to the hotel, to restaurants, was amazing on a bike with no hassles with car parking, the roundabouts in cars, or dealing with the metro schedules and line transfers. Bonus: you can go to Georgetown easily which doesn't have a metro.
Manhattan/NYC SHOULD be like this, but it wasn't in the same league as DC last I did it. Brooklyn was still not well served.
Manhattan/NYC would be much better with an ebike. It would shrink Manhattan neighborhoods by a huge amount.
> I could buy a motorcycle/scooter and gear for similar money
I did a similar calculation myself recently.
I sold my car for a profit given I was driving very little. The furthest I’d been driving most of the time was 3 miles away / 6 round trip.
I looked into an e-bike but it seemed to make more sense to get a motorcycle. The bike, title transfer, helmet and some gloves wound up being less than $3k.
I also decided it was probably safer to ride with traffic at 35-40mph than be riding on the side of the road at 20mph tops.
I did a similar calculation myself recently.
I sold my car for a profit given I was driving very little. The furthest I’d been driving most of the time was 3 miles away / 6 round trip.
I looked into an e-bike but it seemed to make more sense to get a motorcycle. The bike, title transfer, helmet and some gloves wound up being less than $3k.
I also decided it was probably safer to ride with traffic at 35-40mph than be riding on the side of the road at 20mph tops.
> I looked into an e-bike but it seemed to make more sense to get a motorcycle. The bike, title transfer, helmet and some gloves wound up being less than $3k.
In the long run, the motorcycle will likely cost more than the bike, considering gas, insurance, and maintenance expenses.
Also, for 6 miles, it might not be worth to have an e-bike. I do ~17km round trip on a so-called "fitness bike", and after some training I go faster than e-bikes. :)
> I also decided it was probably safer to ride with traffic at 35-40mph than be riding on the side of the road at 20mph tops.
This is a good point. I chose a longer trip, but way safer with separated lanes for cycles.
Disclaimer: I rode motorcycles for ~10 years, now I'm full bicycle for commuting, and we use a long-tail e-bike to carry the kids around the city. We still have a car for family WE trips (main blocker!) and weekly groceries.
In the long run, the motorcycle will likely cost more than the bike, considering gas, insurance, and maintenance expenses.
Also, for 6 miles, it might not be worth to have an e-bike. I do ~17km round trip on a so-called "fitness bike", and after some training I go faster than e-bikes. :)
> I also decided it was probably safer to ride with traffic at 35-40mph than be riding on the side of the road at 20mph tops.
This is a good point. I chose a longer trip, but way safer with separated lanes for cycles.
Disclaimer: I rode motorcycles for ~10 years, now I'm full bicycle for commuting, and we use a long-tail e-bike to carry the kids around the city. We still have a car for family WE trips (main blocker!) and weekly groceries.
> In the long run, the motorcycle will likely cost more than the bike, considering gas, insurance, and maintenance expenses.
Gas cost is nominal - premium, $6/gallon and 130mpg with a 1 gal tank.
Insurance is equally nominal - $20/month for single motorcycle for a clean record driver in their late 20s/30s with more than minimum coverage
Maintenance - a wash. Bikes are cheap/easy to maintain yourself and are more complicated in their E versions I'd imagine.
Gas cost is nominal - premium, $6/gallon and 130mpg with a 1 gal tank.
Insurance is equally nominal - $20/month for single motorcycle for a clean record driver in their late 20s/30s with more than minimum coverage
Maintenance - a wash. Bikes are cheap/easy to maintain yourself and are more complicated in their E versions I'd imagine.
> - $3300 + $1000 for upgrades/maintenance to cover 4k km works out to $1/km which is fairly expensive. Longer use will obviously amortize the cost further and the resale value of that bike is at least $2k, but still, I could buy a motorcycle/scooter and gear for similar money.
I just want to say, as someone who just got into mountain biking, this is a shockingly expensive sport and these machines are requiring surprising amounts of maintenance. The cheapest full-suspension bike I found was $1250 lightly used, and I promptly had to go spend $130 to have just the rubber of the front tire replaced (tubeless wheel - $70 part $60 labor). I admit I got boomed by the seller and should've asked for money back when when he told me the tire was needing repairs, but the bike shop I went to did not have low prices beside tune-ups or installs
I just want to say, as someone who just got into mountain biking, this is a shockingly expensive sport and these machines are requiring surprising amounts of maintenance. The cheapest full-suspension bike I found was $1250 lightly used, and I promptly had to go spend $130 to have just the rubber of the front tire replaced (tubeless wheel - $70 part $60 labor). I admit I got boomed by the seller and should've asked for money back when when he told me the tire was needing repairs, but the bike shop I went to did not have low prices beside tune-ups or installs
The good news is that most of the maintenance can be DIYed with a few inexpensive tools. Replacing tires, inner tubes, or brake pads is not really complex. Cleaning and greasing the chain is also easy, but must be done regularly to preserve the transmission. In the same way, tire pressure should be adjusted regularly to preserve tires and avoid punctures. Transmission replacement could be a bit more complicated and requires additional tools, but it's still feasible.
What I would leave to a pro is the suspension maintenance and break fluid replacement.
What I would leave to a pro is the suspension maintenance and break fluid replacement.
> Replacing tires, inner tubes
Note I did say tubeless - I bought the bike to ride trails and I understand these to be more durable. If it took the guy at the shop an hour to put a tire on, have him describe it as not fun, requiring specialized tools, and say it'll last a year if I maintain it a bit, I can assure you I'm not going to DIY that.
The transmission is simple, just a rear derailleur with 12 speeds, I am glad for this, it seems very well built and I don't expect issue, but I would be hopeless to fix it were it to severely break.
The brakes are extremely critical on steep and rocky trails so I will also leave this to the professionals. Overall, I don't think becoming a bike mechanic is a trivial venture, and given the relatively high stakes nature of trail riding I prefer to have it done at an expert level.
Note I did say tubeless - I bought the bike to ride trails and I understand these to be more durable. If it took the guy at the shop an hour to put a tire on, have him describe it as not fun, requiring specialized tools, and say it'll last a year if I maintain it a bit, I can assure you I'm not going to DIY that.
The transmission is simple, just a rear derailleur with 12 speeds, I am glad for this, it seems very well built and I don't expect issue, but I would be hopeless to fix it were it to severely break.
The brakes are extremely critical on steep and rocky trails so I will also leave this to the professionals. Overall, I don't think becoming a bike mechanic is a trivial venture, and given the relatively high stakes nature of trail riding I prefer to have it done at an expert level.
In my experience unlimited attention of the novice is generally better than the rushed attention of the bike mechanics in most cases. I've had Acura, Subaru, and Tesla cars. Even simple things like lug nut torque and tire pressures are way off. Similar with bikes.
Brakes are pretty straight forward, a bleeding kit is $20 ish, and if done right lasts quite a bit longer and feels better than the store bleeds. More importantly less air = more consistent braking. Sure store bleeds help, and how an improvement. But they don't seem to spend the time to get all the bubbles out. I just spend a few extra minutes applying negative pressure to the brake fluid and watch till the bubbles stop coming out of solution and end up with a bleed better than I've had at the last 5 bike shops I've used.
Sure it's a bit messy, but doing it when it's nice out on a driveway or sidewalk isn't a big deal. A set of allen wrenches, a bleed kit (hose + syringe), and the right fluids (some bikes use mineral spirits, others use brake fluid). From what I can tell even the first attempt based on watching an expert (like an SRAM brake engineer on youtube) will go better than most bike shops will do for ya.
Bike mechanics are crazy fast at doing decent work, but not hard to beat if you have the time. Do buy a torque wrench or two though.
Brakes are pretty straight forward, a bleeding kit is $20 ish, and if done right lasts quite a bit longer and feels better than the store bleeds. More importantly less air = more consistent braking. Sure store bleeds help, and how an improvement. But they don't seem to spend the time to get all the bubbles out. I just spend a few extra minutes applying negative pressure to the brake fluid and watch till the bubbles stop coming out of solution and end up with a bleed better than I've had at the last 5 bike shops I've used.
Sure it's a bit messy, but doing it when it's nice out on a driveway or sidewalk isn't a big deal. A set of allen wrenches, a bleed kit (hose + syringe), and the right fluids (some bikes use mineral spirits, others use brake fluid). From what I can tell even the first attempt based on watching an expert (like an SRAM brake engineer on youtube) will go better than most bike shops will do for ya.
Bike mechanics are crazy fast at doing decent work, but not hard to beat if you have the time. Do buy a torque wrench or two though.
> Note I did say tubeless - I bought the bike to ride trails and I understand these to be more durable. If it took the guy at the shop an hour to put a tire on, have him describe it as not fun, requiring specialized tools, and say it'll last a year if I maintain it a bit, I can assure you I'm not going to DIY that.
Well it's most that you can run lower pressures without snakebites, but generally the durability is similar if you use the pressures appropriate for each. Tubeless tires can be a pain occasionally, especially if using a bike pump. It's a pain, and a compressor can be a huge help. I do it myself, not to save the occasional bike mechanic fee, but so that I could fix things whenever I need without scheduling a trip to the bike shop (if they are open).
Well it's most that you can run lower pressures without snakebites, but generally the durability is similar if you use the pressures appropriate for each. Tubeless tires can be a pain occasionally, especially if using a bike pump. It's a pain, and a compressor can be a huge help. I do it myself, not to save the occasional bike mechanic fee, but so that I could fix things whenever I need without scheduling a trip to the bike shop (if they are open).
Another downside and word of caution: I left my $1200 Rad City bike in the garage over the winter and it got unplugged somehow. By spring it was no longer able to charge, and replacing just the battery cost another $600.
I hope that your bike failed like that was a fluke. I didn't recharge my $1100 Ancheer all winter and it was fine when I started using it again 2 weeks ago. I didn't even think it might be a problem to worry about. I'll have to be more careful next winter.
FWIW, I would encourage anyone who isn't certain enough about it to buy a $3,000 bike to start with a cheaper Chinese model to decide if it is for them. There are things I don't love about this bike, but it definitely has me sold on electric assist bikes given the hills I have around me and my knees, and when it comes time to replace it, I expect I will get a nicer model.
FWIW, I would encourage anyone who isn't certain enough about it to buy a $3,000 bike to start with a cheaper Chinese model to decide if it is for them. There are things I don't love about this bike, but it definitely has me sold on electric assist bikes given the hills I have around me and my knees, and when it comes time to replace it, I expect I will get a nicer model.
It should have kept charge easily if it was full when the winter started. I've two 36 V nominal packs here lying around in case the other one dies (but it never does) and they've dropped 0.5V from 39 or so over the winter.
Quite probably there was something wrong with that previous pack already that caused a self discharge rate so high that the pack had gone completely empty.
The best way to store them for long term is to charge to either 3.7 or 3.9 V / cell (depending on whether you want to check them in 3 or in 5 months).
Quite probably there was something wrong with that previous pack already that caused a self discharge rate so high that the pack had gone completely empty.
The best way to store them for long term is to charge to either 3.7 or 3.9 V / cell (depending on whether you want to check them in 3 or in 5 months).
> I could buy a motorcycle/scooter and gear for similar money.
Sure, purchase price, but not cost to own.
Don't forget the total cost to own. Gas, Oil, Oil changes, license, registration, insurance, etc. Also exercising while commuting makes it a daily activity, doesn't require a gym membership, and can save you a few hours a week of trying to get exercise elsewhere.
Sure, purchase price, but not cost to own.
Don't forget the total cost to own. Gas, Oil, Oil changes, license, registration, insurance, etc. Also exercising while commuting makes it a daily activity, doesn't require a gym membership, and can save you a few hours a week of trying to get exercise elsewhere.
> - Any US city I've lived in, riding such a bike to anywhere where I'd be leaving it out of sight for >5min is a non-starter because of rampant theft.
That is very sad.
How can people exist in such an environment?
That is very sad.
How can people exist in such an environment?
Why do you think suburbs are so popular in the USA? A lot of us are interested in living in cities, walking and biking as much as possible, but eventually the crime (personal or property) becomes too much and folks move somewhere "safer." It happened in the 60s and 70s with "white flight," it's happening now with millenials who are getting fed up with rent, crime, etc.
That being said, cities still have more things to do than most alternatives unless you really like outdoor activities. And the dating scene is much better in cities. And physical workplaces are nearly all near cities. So a lot of Americans work around the problems US cities have for those advantages.
That being said, cities still have more things to do than most alternatives unless you really like outdoor activities. And the dating scene is much better in cities. And physical workplaces are nearly all near cities. So a lot of Americans work around the problems US cities have for those advantages.
This is why commuting to work with an e-bike is a great option, assuming your workplace offers secure bike storage, which it certainly should.
There are lots of decent ebike options < $2000 and they generally require very little maintenance.
$1000 for inner tubes, break pads, and chain grease is not a reasonable estimate.
$1000 for inner tubes, break pads, and chain grease is not a reasonable estimate.
I'd say $1000 is pretty high and likely is mostly labor. You can almost all of your bike maintenance yourself for a small fraction of what it costs at the bike store and if you are halfway handy you will probably do as good or better.
$1000 would probably also include things like cassettes, chainrings, chains and brake discs. Depending on the system on your bike this stuff can get quite expensive.
$1000 would probably also include things like cassettes, chainrings, chains and brake discs. Depending on the system on your bike this stuff can get quite expensive.
Er, what? Sounds crazy high, maybe $50 for tubes/pads (at huge bike shop markups) and even a very generous hourly rate for a generous 1 hour should be WAY less than half of that.
Even $0.50 per km is pretty bad. With no safety shell.
I drive a used Lexus which costs me less that 30 cents per mile all up.
I drive a used Lexus which costs me less that 30 cents per mile all up.
It's a faulty comparison: If you drove only in city traffic, your costs per mile would be at double or more. A few hours at highway speed is low-cost.
Cost per city journey, including parking, would be a more enlightening comparison. And if you substituted an e-bike for those journeys your car costs per mile would drop.
Cost per city journey, including parking, would be a more enlightening comparison. And if you substituted an e-bike for those journeys your car costs per mile would drop.
Lexus RX
30 MPG on highway 18 MPG on city streets with medium traffic (Denver Metro)
So yes city uses twice the gas. But average is 24MPG.
I bike (no battery) and it is super efficient for 5-10 miles. My point was ebikes make no sense economically.
30 MPG on highway 18 MPG on city streets with medium traffic (Denver Metro)
So yes city uses twice the gas. But average is 24MPG.
I bike (no battery) and it is super efficient for 5-10 miles. My point was ebikes make no sense economically.
Yet. I think part of that is that cars are ubiquitous enough for you to able to buy a fully depreciated, reliable Japanese car for the cost of a decent ebike, we have some of the cheapest fuel in the world and everything is built around cars. I expect economies of scale to kick in with eBikes while cars continue to become more and more expensive to run in dense urban centers.
Honest question; What's included in those 30 cents? I'm just guessing that that's gas alone, and not including parking, insurance, repairs and depreciation.
includes all of that (2004 RX330).
Gas: 15 cents
depreciation and repairs: 5 cents (bought for $4k(180k miles), no repairs (3 years), lasts 300k-400k if driven with care
maintenance: 1 cent. $50 oil change every 6 months
Insurance: $50/month. 5 cents
parking: 0 cents free on the street (live and work in suburbia) even in city find street parking and walk half mile (Denver/Boulder)
you could go even cheaper buying a camry.
Gas: 15 cents
depreciation and repairs: 5 cents (bought for $4k(180k miles), no repairs (3 years), lasts 300k-400k if driven with care
maintenance: 1 cent. $50 oil change every 6 months
Insurance: $50/month. 5 cents
parking: 0 cents free on the street (live and work in suburbia) even in city find street parking and walk half mile (Denver/Boulder)
you could go even cheaper buying a camry.
> maintenance: 1 cent. $50 oil change every 6 months
Sure, that's all the maintenance the average car needs over its lifetime. Totally reasonable comparison.
Sure, that's all the maintenance the average car needs over its lifetime. Totally reasonable comparison.
Depends on the car. Don't buy the average car. Buy a car for which it is true.
For a Japan made Lexus RX, that's true 90% of the time. In my case it's 100% true. There really is no other maintenance.
For a Japan made Lexus RX, that's true 90% of the time. In my case it's 100% true. There really is no other maintenance.
Anything with moving parts requires maintenance, and trying to claim otherwise is absurd — particularly so when statistics to the contrary are readily available.
https://repairpal.com/reliability/lexus/rx330
https://repairpal.com/reliability/lexus/rx330
Your link says:
> There is no Reliability Rating for the Lexus RX330 due to insufficient data.
and instead quotes average for midsize SUVs.
Sure everything breaks down eventually. I presently have 2 RX330s. The way it works is buy for less than 5k (~150k miles). Drive for 100k miles and sell for $2k. which turns out to about 3cents per mile. these cars have great reliability. 300k is safe mileage before repairs become uneconomic.
Previously I had a Scion xb which i drove to 375k miles and only disposed because it needed a new catalytic converter. The only repair i did on it was replacing alternator ($100 plus one hour). that car was even cheaper per mile and used less gas.
If a car wears out eventually so does a bike.
> There is no Reliability Rating for the Lexus RX330 due to insufficient data.
and instead quotes average for midsize SUVs.
Sure everything breaks down eventually. I presently have 2 RX330s. The way it works is buy for less than 5k (~150k miles). Drive for 100k miles and sell for $2k. which turns out to about 3cents per mile. these cars have great reliability. 300k is safe mileage before repairs become uneconomic.
Previously I had a Scion xb which i drove to 375k miles and only disposed because it needed a new catalytic converter. The only repair i did on it was replacing alternator ($100 plus one hour). that car was even cheaper per mile and used less gas.
If a car wears out eventually so does a bike.
> $3300 + $1000 for upgrades/maintenance to cover 4k km
What happens to your bike after 4k km?
What happens to your bike after 4k km?
I love the idea of eBikes, and everything this post mentions is spot on. But there's one part I have a hard time getting past: Chronic use on infrastructure meant for pedestrians.
Around here (southeast Michigan, US) it's very common to see folks on eBikes riding on sidewalks or non-motorized trails at speeds that far exceed those on human-power bikes. The speeds afforded by eBikes, even pedal assist ones, makes them a whole different thing from traditional human powered bicycles. Some/many are effectively just electric motorbikes (throttle control and all) that fly under the radar because they happen to also have pedals and no traditional "motor" noise.
I feel like I'm somewhat grumping about something that I realize there's no practical solution for, but it's quite difficult when I'm walking on a sidewalk and someone comes flying by at 20 MPH (capped speed for most eBikes). Folks on human power bikes rarely reach these speeds, and those that do are usually more experienced riders who'll be doing so in the road, not on a sidewalk or hiking path.
Heck, while I was typing this comment I saw someone ride the path through the suburban park across the street from house on a throttle-control eBike, helmetless, going full speed, swerving between walkers. That's a recipe for disaster.
I recognize this is an law enforcement issue more than anything, but at the same time it's pretty unlikely that policymakers and enforcers are going to do anything about it because they've got other priorities. Whether due to ignorance or lack of concern, it seems we can't depend on folks to do the right thing, and thus it's frustrating all around.
Around here (southeast Michigan, US) it's very common to see folks on eBikes riding on sidewalks or non-motorized trails at speeds that far exceed those on human-power bikes. The speeds afforded by eBikes, even pedal assist ones, makes them a whole different thing from traditional human powered bicycles. Some/many are effectively just electric motorbikes (throttle control and all) that fly under the radar because they happen to also have pedals and no traditional "motor" noise.
I feel like I'm somewhat grumping about something that I realize there's no practical solution for, but it's quite difficult when I'm walking on a sidewalk and someone comes flying by at 20 MPH (capped speed for most eBikes). Folks on human power bikes rarely reach these speeds, and those that do are usually more experienced riders who'll be doing so in the road, not on a sidewalk or hiking path.
Heck, while I was typing this comment I saw someone ride the path through the suburban park across the street from house on a throttle-control eBike, helmetless, going full speed, swerving between walkers. That's a recipe for disaster.
I recognize this is an law enforcement issue more than anything, but at the same time it's pretty unlikely that policymakers and enforcers are going to do anything about it because they've got other priorities. Whether due to ignorance or lack of concern, it seems we can't depend on folks to do the right thing, and thus it's frustrating all around.
It's not a law enforcement issue, it's a city planning issue.
The practical solution is to reallocate usage of the street to prioritize all modes of transport. i.e. Take a car lane and replace it with proper 2-way concrete barriered bike lane.
They're on the sidewalks because they don't feel safe riding in the street, and who would with huge trucks blowing past you at high rates of speed. But if you give them some infrastructure and someplace safe to ride, they won't be forced to dive through pedestrians on the sidewalk.
The practical solution is to reallocate usage of the street to prioritize all modes of transport. i.e. Take a car lane and replace it with proper 2-way concrete barriered bike lane.
They're on the sidewalks because they don't feel safe riding in the street, and who would with huge trucks blowing past you at high rates of speed. But if you give them some infrastructure and someplace safe to ride, they won't be forced to dive through pedestrians on the sidewalk.
Or, they didn't know that they should be riding in the street. Which is a problem of both planning and enforcement.
The road the sidewalk paralleled is great (for the area) cycling infrastructure. 25 MPH, low traffic, sharrows, signed Bicycle Route, and with wide paved shoulders.
What I mentioned above was more likely out of ignorance than fear.
The road the sidewalk paralleled is great (for the area) cycling infrastructure. 25 MPH, low traffic, sharrows, signed Bicycle Route, and with wide paved shoulders.
What I mentioned above was more likely out of ignorance than fear.
> Chronic use on infrastructure meant for pedestrians.
The issue is Stroads [1][2]. Infrastructure caters too much for cars. If we had real streets, this wouldn't be an issue.
I was just in Nashville, and they have scooters you can use. It felt 10x more dangerous than me biking at high speed in NYC. Even though there was a bike path, it was next to cars going 50mph, not fun, nor safe.
[1] https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2013/3/4/the-stroad.html
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORzNZUeUHAM
The issue is Stroads [1][2]. Infrastructure caters too much for cars. If we had real streets, this wouldn't be an issue.
I was just in Nashville, and they have scooters you can use. It felt 10x more dangerous than me biking at high speed in NYC. Even though there was a bike path, it was next to cars going 50mph, not fun, nor safe.
[1] https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2013/3/4/the-stroad.html
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORzNZUeUHAM
Not endorsing the behavior, but this is a consequence of the streets being unsafe for bicycles and scooters and there being no dedicated infrastructure yet.
If you look back at when cars or bikes were first introduced you’ll see the same complaints about dangerous behaviors and being incompatible with horses. For cars, it’s not wrong because at the time traffic laws were incomplete, there were no street signals, and people didn’t even stay wide when making left turns.
If you look back at when cars or bikes were first introduced you’ll see the same complaints about dangerous behaviors and being incompatible with horses. For cars, it’s not wrong because at the time traffic laws were incomplete, there were no street signals, and people didn’t even stay wide when making left turns.
> Whether due to ignorance or lack of concern, it seems we can't depend on folks to do the right thing, and thus it's frustrating all around.
It's neither. The actual reason is lack of biking infrastructure.
Putting a "Share the Road" sign and/or painting some bicycle symbols on a narrow path right next to cars going 50 mph does not constitute infrastructure, nor does it make the road any safer for cyclists.
It's neither. The actual reason is lack of biking infrastructure.
Putting a "Share the Road" sign and/or painting some bicycle symbols on a narrow path right next to cars going 50 mph does not constitute infrastructure, nor does it make the road any safer for cyclists.
The road adjacent to the path I detail above is 25 MPH, has sharrows, is very low traffic, and has wide, paved, unused shoulders. It's great mixed bike/car infrastructure.
And even if there was better cycling infrastructure, we'd still need a way to keep people from riding bikes on the sidewalks. Without enforcement, no amount of infrastructure will stop that.
And even if there was better cycling infrastructure, we'd still need a way to keep people from riding bikes on the sidewalks. Without enforcement, no amount of infrastructure will stop that.
> Without enforcement, no amount of infrastructure will stop that.
And that's never going to happen either. What are you going to do, have a police officer for every bike path next to a sidewalk?
And that's never going to happen either. What are you going to do, have a police officer for every bike path next to a sidewalk?
Precisely, that's the whole point of my original reply. That enforcement is not practical, and eBikes make the problem even worse by adding motorized things to the equation.
I think e-bikes decrease this issue compared to standard bikes.
While I never rode on sidewalks when using a standard bike, I'm much more confident in traffic on an e-bike. It's just much easier to deal with stop-and-go traffic on an e-bike.
On a regular bike, I was never entirely comfortable riding on the road. You're either riding in traffic and holding up a lane of cars, or you're too close to parked cars and risk being doored.
With e-bikes, I can easily keep up with traffic in the city, even in stop-and-go traffic conditions, or at traffic lights. On an e-bike, I have no problem at all pretending I'm a car, and obeying traffic laws exactly as I would in a car.
While I never rode on sidewalks when using a standard bike, I'm much more confident in traffic on an e-bike. It's just much easier to deal with stop-and-go traffic on an e-bike.
On a regular bike, I was never entirely comfortable riding on the road. You're either riding in traffic and holding up a lane of cars, or you're too close to parked cars and risk being doored.
With e-bikes, I can easily keep up with traffic in the city, even in stop-and-go traffic conditions, or at traffic lights. On an e-bike, I have no problem at all pretending I'm a car, and obeying traffic laws exactly as I would in a car.
I think it's less a law enforcement problem and and more an infrastructure problem.
Law enforcement can say "You can't ride that here!" but if a reasonable alternative path doesn't exist that doesn't really solve anything.
A two-way bike road for various types of bikes is way cheaper than a road expansion to carry the same number of people via cars, but we still view that as an "extra expense" while we don't hesitate to rip up a road to expand it from 2 to 4 or 6 lanes for cars.
Law enforcement can say "You can't ride that here!" but if a reasonable alternative path doesn't exist that doesn't really solve anything.
A two-way bike road for various types of bikes is way cheaper than a road expansion to carry the same number of people via cars, but we still view that as an "extra expense" while we don't hesitate to rip up a road to expand it from 2 to 4 or 6 lanes for cars.
> there's no practical solution
Plenty of cities have built cycling infrastructure. That's the solution, not law enforcement.
Plenty of cities have built cycling infrastructure. That's the solution, not law enforcement.
Getting people to use the cycling infrastructure (and not the pedestrian areas) is exactly an enforcement issue.
To note, the sidewalk I mentioned above while writing the earlier comment parallels a local cycling route. It's a 25 MPH residential street that also has wide paved shoulders, with sharrows, signed as a formal bicycle route. I ride it almost daily, and it's a great route to ride. There's no reason to ride a bicycle on the barely-two-person-wide sidewalk there except out of ignorance.
To note, the sidewalk I mentioned above while writing the earlier comment parallels a local cycling route. It's a 25 MPH residential street that also has wide paved shoulders, with sharrows, signed as a formal bicycle route. I ride it almost daily, and it's a great route to ride. There's no reason to ride a bicycle on the barely-two-person-wide sidewalk there except out of ignorance.
No it really isn't. Cyclists will use cycle-friendly infrastructure, because it's easier and more comfortable to use.
Even in parts of the country with better bike infrastructure, I still find the throttle vs non-throttle distinction to be an often overlooked one - having a throttle makes it easy to sustain aggressive riding that would be utterly exhausting to most normal riders on a pedal-assist or muscle powered bike / scooter / whatever.
On one hand, I know having more people riding is broadly a good thing because it increases demand for infrastructure, makes drivers more aware that they should be looking out for non-car stuff, etc... but on the other hand, I can't help but be a bit grumpy as a long-time muscle powered bike commuter that these new electric ones with throttles make it really easy for casual riders to throw all of the normal convention and expectations about how bikes move and behave out the window, often to the annoyance or risk of people around them.
A decade ago there was never any expectation of being passed at a high rate of speed while climbing a bridge or hill, nor many riders who were capable of racing up to a tight gap or turn only to slam on brakes and floor it out of there, burning momentum in the process. Stuff with throttles mixed with stuff without throttles mashes together two very different ways of riding.
On one hand, I know having more people riding is broadly a good thing because it increases demand for infrastructure, makes drivers more aware that they should be looking out for non-car stuff, etc... but on the other hand, I can't help but be a bit grumpy as a long-time muscle powered bike commuter that these new electric ones with throttles make it really easy for casual riders to throw all of the normal convention and expectations about how bikes move and behave out the window, often to the annoyance or risk of people around them.
A decade ago there was never any expectation of being passed at a high rate of speed while climbing a bridge or hill, nor many riders who were capable of racing up to a tight gap or turn only to slam on brakes and floor it out of there, burning momentum in the process. Stuff with throttles mixed with stuff without throttles mashes together two very different ways of riding.
That's exactly it.
In the park I mention above, the street next to it is 25 MPH, has sharrows, and also has a very wide pretty much unused paved shoulder as well. Except for ignorance, there's no reason for eBike riders to be using the only-about-two-person-wide sidewalk.
In the past the speed came with skill which developed through experience. Now that speed is often at the press of a throttle (or setting the assist to high) there are more folks at high speeds without the developed skill or etiquette.
Heck, at one of the local parks that I work with (volunteer cycling advocate who develops trail systems), they are trying to figure out what to do about eBikes on their paved walking/running/biking loop which parallels the park road. In the past the mixed use was fine, as most riders on the loop were going slow; families/kids/whatever and coexisted just fine with walkers. The faster riders would be out on the road, going roughly the same speed as the cars.
Now that eBikes are becoming popular, the less-experienced folks are sticking to the path, but at higher speeds, causing issues with the walkers. Walkers being clipped by bikes is not unheardof on these paths in the past, but it's becoming much more frequent now that the walker-rider speed delta has increased.
(For reference, ~8-12 MPH was common for human-powered riders on these paths. eBikes roughly double the average speed.)
In the park I mention above, the street next to it is 25 MPH, has sharrows, and also has a very wide pretty much unused paved shoulder as well. Except for ignorance, there's no reason for eBike riders to be using the only-about-two-person-wide sidewalk.
In the past the speed came with skill which developed through experience. Now that speed is often at the press of a throttle (or setting the assist to high) there are more folks at high speeds without the developed skill or etiquette.
Heck, at one of the local parks that I work with (volunteer cycling advocate who develops trail systems), they are trying to figure out what to do about eBikes on their paved walking/running/biking loop which parallels the park road. In the past the mixed use was fine, as most riders on the loop were going slow; families/kids/whatever and coexisted just fine with walkers. The faster riders would be out on the road, going roughly the same speed as the cars.
Now that eBikes are becoming popular, the less-experienced folks are sticking to the path, but at higher speeds, causing issues with the walkers. Walkers being clipped by bikes is not unheardof on these paths in the past, but it's becoming much more frequent now that the walker-rider speed delta has increased.
(For reference, ~8-12 MPH was common for human-powered riders on these paths. eBikes roughly double the average speed.)
[deleted]
I often see unfit/overweight people riding electric bicycles. One could assume that it means that these bikes don't provide a good workout, but one could also assume that these people would otherwise not be riding a bike. I'm leaning on the latter explanation, in most cases - especially an inductive argument can be made, since there seem to be many more bikers nowadays than a few years ago, and many of them ride electric. Though I think, if you're already riding a bike regularly, you probably shouldn't switch to electric, because it'll definitely mean less workout.
One thing that pisses me off from time to time, is that some (especially older folks) seem to overestimate themselves riding these - or rather, they underestimate the speed of seasoned 'manual' riders. They overtake other people last moment while coming my way and endanger themselves, others, and me. There were many instances where I had to brake hard or even go off-asphalt because of such maneuvers from people presumably aged 60+. The question I ask myself is: what to do about it. Willingly crash into them is out of question, since that'd probably fuck them up for good, considering their advanced age. But there's also nothing else to do other than brake or get out of the way, which can be immensely frustrating.
One thing that pisses me off from time to time, is that some (especially older folks) seem to overestimate themselves riding these - or rather, they underestimate the speed of seasoned 'manual' riders. They overtake other people last moment while coming my way and endanger themselves, others, and me. There were many instances where I had to brake hard or even go off-asphalt because of such maneuvers from people presumably aged 60+. The question I ask myself is: what to do about it. Willingly crash into them is out of question, since that'd probably fuck them up for good, considering their advanced age. But there's also nothing else to do other than brake or get out of the way, which can be immensely frustrating.
> Though I think, if you're already riding a bike regularly, you probably shouldn't switch to electric, because it'll definitely mean less workout.
If any part of your regular bike riding is for fun/exercise and not e.g. set commute trip, electric does not definitely mean less workout. It may mean less workout, but I'd argue that more likely it means you rides are longer and you ride faster, thus the total workout being at least the same. And this not even taking into account that with assistance you likely also ride more often.
If any part of your regular bike riding is for fun/exercise and not e.g. set commute trip, electric does not definitely mean less workout. It may mean less workout, but I'd argue that more likely it means you rides are longer and you ride faster, thus the total workout being at least the same. And this not even taking into account that with assistance you likely also ride more often.
Having done just this transition, the assistance means harder workouts. It effectively lets me set the load to however much exercise I'm willing to do at the moment, even down close to zero, which — paradoxically? — means I get more exercise.
I think the reason is I feel much less need to keep a reserve of energy so I can get home without getting exhausted.
I think the reason is I feel much less need to keep a reserve of energy so I can get home without getting exhausted.
Yeah the common idea (among drivers, as far as I can tell, people who have never once in their lives ridden a bicycle) is completely backwards. E-bikes lead to more exercise, not less. My e-bike even has an integration with my heart rate monitor to adjust the assist levels to maintain a given heart rate. It has radically improved my non-electric bicycling by giving me a structured workout, if I want it, on routes where I would have used a car before, and by giving me the state of mind that 28 MPH is a normal speed for a bicyclist to attain.
I'm not sure how you mean this. I thought ebikes cap at 25kmh and don't help beyond it? So it wouldn't be faster, if you're a seasoned biker (going 40 to 60). But yeah, those speeds make little sense on a commute, since you'd arrive sweaty. I meant for exercise, I suppose
Yes, they cap at 25kmh (in Europe). But that means you can keep that 25kmh in uphill/upwind as well and you accelerate faster. Admittably my experience is more on the mountain bike side, where 25kmh is relatively faster than on the road.
Most of Europe. I live in Ireland, and they’re happy to let me have one that caps at 45 kmph.
> But there's also nothing else to do other than brake or get out of the way, which can be immensely frustrating.
Well, yeah, but the nice thing about somebody being in any kind of not-car is you can talk to them like a normal person. Half the issue with shitty drivers is that cars bring out the obnoxious asshole in most people behind the wheel.
Well, yeah, but the nice thing about somebody being in any kind of not-car is you can talk to them like a normal person. Half the issue with shitty drivers is that cars bring out the obnoxious asshole in most people behind the wheel.
I don't think you can talk to someone zapping by at 25kmh while you're going the same, or faster speed, in the other direction. (Unless you were to follow them - which probably wouldn't be a friendly encounter, if you did it)
Let's add one more lesson so you can get to 401k and retirement - WEAR THE DAMN HELMET even on short trips! The main thing it's protecting you from is the fall from height.
Slap it on your head when you slap your ass on the seat; even short slow trips can still result in a crash.
Slap it on your head when you slap your ass on the seat; even short slow trips can still result in a crash.
I hopped on a bike for the first time in ~20 years a few years ago. Fell off the bike at one point, going pretty slow in objective terms but faster than I should have been given my experience - got a concussion and broke my nose as well as got two pretty deep cuts on my hand and ankle. When I took the helmet off the front had split open from the impact. What was a quick exam from a doctor who was on the trip could have easily turned into a ruined vacation with days in the hospital or worse, and this was a slight downhill grade where I was barely pedaling. The thought of falling off a bike without a helmet at any appreciable speed should be very frightening.
My dad has a fun relationship with his small town GP, and managed to hit some gravel while on his bicycle and go ass over teakettle, cutting up his shoulder on the guardrail in the process and needing some stitches.
First thing the Doctor asked the old man was "Were you wearing your helmet?" Upon receiving the affirmative, he replied "Good, if you weren't I wouldn't numb you up for these stitches."
First thing the Doctor asked the old man was "Were you wearing your helmet?" Upon receiving the affirmative, he replied "Good, if you weren't I wouldn't numb you up for these stitches."
Why would you repeat this story unless the intended moral is "my dad's doctor is sort of a dick"?
Head injuries among pedestrians are WAY more common. If I had been this patient I would have rebutted by asking the dr. about his walking helmet.
Head injuries among pedestrians are WAY more common. If I had been this patient I would have rebutted by asking the dr. about his walking helmet.
InCityDreams(3)
I used to feel annoyed when I'd see an e-bike while I was out riding. I'm not sure which bastion of my ego that irritation came from, but eventually I decided that more bikes (of any kind) is better than more cars, or folks just sitting at home.
I would get annoyed out of jealousy when they effortlessly accelerated from a stop, easily clearing dangerous intersections. In contrast I was using a muscle-powered bike which takes much more effort to start up from a standstill.
the silence of electric scooter / bikes is so neat compared to other ICE based vehicles
My wife and I own one of the RadMission ebikes[1] each, and I now fully believe that they are the missing middle transportation that many cities, even in suburbs.
We've taken these bikes on, long trips on a trial, grocery runs, trips to the gym, and even on dates. These things are a ton of fun, and I can safely keep up with cars on many, not all, city streets.
I think ebikes can effectively replace cars for many trips, they cause minimal wear to city infrastructure, require much less space on roads, cause a lot less traffic, and generally improve the health and well being of people in a city.
I think we need an ebike revolution as much as we need an electric car revolution.
https://www.radpowerbikes.com/collections/electric-bikes/pro...
We've taken these bikes on, long trips on a trial, grocery runs, trips to the gym, and even on dates. These things are a ton of fun, and I can safely keep up with cars on many, not all, city streets.
I think ebikes can effectively replace cars for many trips, they cause minimal wear to city infrastructure, require much less space on roads, cause a lot less traffic, and generally improve the health and well being of people in a city.
I think we need an ebike revolution as much as we need an electric car revolution.
https://www.radpowerbikes.com/collections/electric-bikes/pro...
One dilemma that stops ebikes from really taking over cars is the fact that it rains a lot in most of the country. Sure, on the west coast and in the desert ebikes work great. Move to a climate like the east coast, and it is immediately much less appealing as a single mode of transportation.
It doesn't need to be a single mode - it can be a supplementary mode that covers some percentage of use - 10%, 30%, 50% - all would help reduce transit issues and improve transit density.
This is easily solved for with a decent rain jacket and rain pants.
When I started commuting via ebike I was convinced I would take the bus or drive on rainy days, but in reality I’ve found that riding in the rain (with rain gear) is still vastly more enjoyable than sitting in traffic.
I live in a city famous for its rain.
When I started commuting via ebike I was convinced I would take the bus or drive on rainy days, but in reality I’ve found that riding in the rain (with rain gear) is still vastly more enjoyable than sitting in traffic.
I live in a city famous for its rain.
North of California on the West Coast gets quite a bit of rain as well, some 200+ days on average, and even though the rain is more on the scale of a light mist than a torrential downpour, moving through it for a decently long period of time would leave anyone soaked to the bone.
It depends on the level of rain, but there are affordable solutions to cycling in the rain to prevent you from getting drenched. I use the Rover cycling poncho from Cleverhoods to keep dry. It's mostly a regular poncho, but it has thumb straps you can strap on your handlebars and your legs are covered.
My son, who rides in a seat on the back, has a rain cover that provides shade when it's not raining and that we can zip an enclosure onto when it is to keep him completely dry.
If it's a heavy rain and we can't wait it out we'll take the car. But we mostly use our e-bikes as it's easier/quicker/more fun.
My son, who rides in a seat on the back, has a rain cover that provides shade when it's not raining and that we can zip an enclosure onto when it is to keep him completely dry.
If it's a heavy rain and we can't wait it out we'll take the car. But we mostly use our e-bikes as it's easier/quicker/more fun.
I cycle (manually) in the rain pretty frequently. It's not ideal but it's honestly just fine.
[deleted]
Scooters dominate personal transport in Taipei despite a rainy climate. Offices there have pegs for hanging up wet ponchos.
"Before I go on, I want to point out that my helmet saved my life on that occasion. I recommend Bontrager helmets, another product of Trek. And let me confess: When I’m just going five blocks to pick up parmesan and red wine because we’re having pasta, I often don’t wear one. And then I don’t go fast at all."
Accidents can happen just as easily when you're going five blocks for your cheese and wine as they can on longer trips. When on an e-bike: wear a helmet, always, to the point that you are no longer thinking about it and it is as automatic as snapping your seatbelt in place in a car. Don't be person that ends up dead three blocks from home.
Accidents can happen just as easily when you're going five blocks for your cheese and wine as they can on longer trips. When on an e-bike: wear a helmet, always, to the point that you are no longer thinking about it and it is as automatic as snapping your seatbelt in place in a car. Don't be person that ends up dead three blocks from home.
Personally I go further and always wear a full-face helmet if I'm helmeting at all.
A childhood friend's father used to ride his road bike around the neighborhood and one evening he mistakenly rode into a construction pit where the barricades had been stolen by neighborhood kids. He face-planted into the asphalt on the far side when the front of his bike was abruptly swallowed by the pit. His cycling lid did absolutely no good for him, had his broken jaw wired shut, eating burgers through a straw for months.
Another friend more recently had his front end wash out crossing a slightly muddy intersection riding to the googleplex via skyline. At first he thought he only suffered some rash, until days later he noticed a horizontal crack in one of his canines. Tooth struck the asphalt in the chaos, turned into a year of implant surgery b.s.
The full-face cycling helmets are no less comfortable, and would probably have moved the needle in both of those scenarios despite being casual on-road accidents.
A childhood friend's father used to ride his road bike around the neighborhood and one evening he mistakenly rode into a construction pit where the barricades had been stolen by neighborhood kids. He face-planted into the asphalt on the far side when the front of his bike was abruptly swallowed by the pit. His cycling lid did absolutely no good for him, had his broken jaw wired shut, eating burgers through a straw for months.
Another friend more recently had his front end wash out crossing a slightly muddy intersection riding to the googleplex via skyline. At first he thought he only suffered some rash, until days later he noticed a horizontal crack in one of his canines. Tooth struck the asphalt in the chaos, turned into a year of implant surgery b.s.
The full-face cycling helmets are no less comfortable, and would probably have moved the needle in both of those scenarios despite being casual on-road accidents.
That's a good point. I tried a full face but I find that if I have to choose between wearing a full face helmet or taking the car for any length trip that I'll end up taking the car. But your comment makes me reconsider, especially given that every third 130 km trip I have a 'near miss' of sorts, either some animal or a pedestrian or another cyclist making an expected move. So far so good (good brakes), but statistically speaking that probably won't last. So thanks!
FWIW this [0] is the one I've been using. It's light and vented as well as any other decent cycling helmet. The only time the chin bar makes itself known is drinking water, but that's a small price to pay IMO, I like my teeth.
My buddy has the same one, we just came in from a trail ride an hour ago. I just asked him and confirmed no complaints from either of us...
[0] https://www.bellhelmets.com/bike/p/super-3r-mips-mountain-bi...
My buddy has the same one, we just came in from a trail ride an hour ago. I just asked him and confirmed no complaints from either of us...
[0] https://www.bellhelmets.com/bike/p/super-3r-mips-mountain-bi...
Unfortunately it doesn't seem that that one is legal on my 'fast' bike (but on the slow one it is).
You need NTA 8776 approval for those.
You need NTA 8776 approval for those.
I live in Berlin which has a pretty decent bike infrastructure, and improving. I've never owned a car (always relying on bike + public transport or car sharing) and since I got a baby I got a cargo e-bike (Larry vs Harry Bullit) and I've been in love with it since: I use it for groceries, taking my kid to the kindergarten, to the playground, literally everywhere. I can't recommend anything better than a cargo ebike if you live in a city.
Some of the arguments presented are not e-bike specific. And those that are specific to e-bikes, specifically the "good for the planet" argument, are dodgy (as the report linked to by Bray in that section admits). To be fair, I have no real issue with e-bikes. If they get people out of their cars, I'm all for it. I'm a long time cyclo-commuter, and like others in this thread, I've had a knee-jerk reaction to e-bikes, but I've gotten over that.
Love my e-bike! Haven't had any incentive to acquire such, while in the US (not that popular, either, for obvious reasons), but bought one upon arrival in France, where roads are either bicycle friendly or there are lots of dedicated / purposely built bike paths. I can't get enough of it - trips in and out of the city where I live, be it to various beaches, by the sea, or wineries in the hilly areas.
Speaking as a self-pronounced bike geek (hence the username), I love seeing e-bikes gain in popularity, since they help normalize cycling as a mode of transportation. Normalizing makes motorists more aware of my existence, and it also increases political pressure to build and maintain cycling infrastructure.
One thing I have mixed feelings about is the fact the people riding e-bikes aren't required to get a license to operate them on public infrastructure. People who want to operate motorcycles on public infrastructure typically have to pass tests (often after taking classes) to qualify for a license. In the classes they teach you about how 2-wheeled vehicles with a motor on the back wheel can get finicky under a variety of situations. The author of the linked article learned that lesson the hard way. I've learned that the hard way even on a leg-powered 2-wheeler. (One lesson: Treat any wet piece of metal on the road as you would a cluster of tiny marbles.)
One e-bike rider who would often pass me on a trail (usually well above the 15mph speed limit) on my morning commute just kept on blasting through corners as the weather gradually turned colder through the fall season. One morning there was enough frost accumulated on the pavement that I saw him slide right out on a patch of frost while he gunned the throttle around a corner like he probably did for the past ~100 times on his commute.
Another co-worker of mine was cycling in to work for a while. Part of the commute went down a steep hill. I warned him that, when he sees that the grass is frosty in the morning, he should probably take another route that's not so steep. Sure enough, on the first of said frosty days that year, he showed up to work with a messed-up elbow. He told me he remembered what I told him, but he thought, "Okay, so the grass is frosty. The road looks okay, I guess. How dangerous can it be? I'm sure it will be fine." It wasn't.
The thing about traction on a bike: You've got it, over and over and over again, until suddenly one time you don't. And the instant you lose traction, you're generally gonna have a bad time.
Unless someone somewhere has drilled that into your head in the form of a class or test or whatever, you're not going to know when you need to slow way down and possibly dismount. Or avoid a specific route altogether. Or swap out for studded tires. Or even maybe take the bus that day. You'll be likely to just keep doing what's always "worked" up until then, to your peril.
One thing I have mixed feelings about is the fact the people riding e-bikes aren't required to get a license to operate them on public infrastructure. People who want to operate motorcycles on public infrastructure typically have to pass tests (often after taking classes) to qualify for a license. In the classes they teach you about how 2-wheeled vehicles with a motor on the back wheel can get finicky under a variety of situations. The author of the linked article learned that lesson the hard way. I've learned that the hard way even on a leg-powered 2-wheeler. (One lesson: Treat any wet piece of metal on the road as you would a cluster of tiny marbles.)
One e-bike rider who would often pass me on a trail (usually well above the 15mph speed limit) on my morning commute just kept on blasting through corners as the weather gradually turned colder through the fall season. One morning there was enough frost accumulated on the pavement that I saw him slide right out on a patch of frost while he gunned the throttle around a corner like he probably did for the past ~100 times on his commute.
Another co-worker of mine was cycling in to work for a while. Part of the commute went down a steep hill. I warned him that, when he sees that the grass is frosty in the morning, he should probably take another route that's not so steep. Sure enough, on the first of said frosty days that year, he showed up to work with a messed-up elbow. He told me he remembered what I told him, but he thought, "Okay, so the grass is frosty. The road looks okay, I guess. How dangerous can it be? I'm sure it will be fine." It wasn't.
The thing about traction on a bike: You've got it, over and over and over again, until suddenly one time you don't. And the instant you lose traction, you're generally gonna have a bad time.
Unless someone somewhere has drilled that into your head in the form of a class or test or whatever, you're not going to know when you need to slow way down and possibly dismount. Or avoid a specific route altogether. Or swap out for studded tires. Or even maybe take the bus that day. You'll be likely to just keep doing what's always "worked" up until then, to your peril.
I have been a bike commuter (half hour one way) off and on for the last 10 years, and e-bikes do not solve the real issues I have: safety, especially at night, or in rainy or icy weather, which I have a lot of (but, yes, on some of those hot days, an e-assist would be pretty nice to have).
The main safety problems for me are infrastructure and cultural. If ebikes become popular then hopefully that will provide more pressure for better bike infrastructure, and increase driver awareness. Neither is a quick or guaranteed process, but the benefit should apply even to normal bike users.
The weather thing yeah I don't see how it's going to help. If they drastically increase ridership, then I guess it could make high quality winter gear more practical and affordable? I'm not really expecting anything on that front though.
The weather thing yeah I don't see how it's going to help. If they drastically increase ridership, then I guess it could make high quality winter gear more practical and affordable? I'm not really expecting anything on that front though.
Do we think these will come down in price in the next few years? I $500 want one, but not $3000.
In california, for the same price you can get a motorcycle which has the same risk profile but requires licensing (and therefore training.)
I have joined the club, all of my around town travel is now on 2 wheels. It's awesome.
I have joined the club, all of my around town travel is now on 2 wheels. It's awesome.
E-bikes might be the only think to get me off the side of wanting to ban bikes from roadways. I really don't understand why there isn't a larger group of people who dislike bikes riding on roads.
1. You don't have to be licensed to bike on a road, but you do for motorized vehicles. This doesn't make sense.
2. Bikes can't keep up with traffic. I have to sit behind bikes trying to get up the SF hills daily, and either have to perform semi-dangerous passes or wait while cars back up behind me.
3. Bikes break road laws way more frequently than cars. Blowing through red lights and stop signs like they don't exist, which is dangerous for the biker, the cars, and especially pedestrians trying to cross the road.
E-bikes with a biking test/license would solve most of my issues.
1. You don't have to be licensed to bike on a road, but you do for motorized vehicles. This doesn't make sense.
2. Bikes can't keep up with traffic. I have to sit behind bikes trying to get up the SF hills daily, and either have to perform semi-dangerous passes or wait while cars back up behind me.
3. Bikes break road laws way more frequently than cars. Blowing through red lights and stop signs like they don't exist, which is dangerous for the biker, the cars, and especially pedestrians trying to cross the road.
E-bikes with a biking test/license would solve most of my issues.
You know, sometimes I am extremely glad I do not live in the United States.
There will always be people who cannot afford to drive. Others are making a conscious decision to impose the enormous burden on everyone that is inherent to driving. And this is how you want to treat them.
Sorry not sorry - that is appalling and I'm glad I'm not in that country.
There will always be people who cannot afford to drive. Others are making a conscious decision to impose the enormous burden on everyone that is inherent to driving. And this is how you want to treat them.
Sorry not sorry - that is appalling and I'm glad I'm not in that country.
This seems like an aggressive response which doesn't address any of my points.
I support (mostly by voting for and donating to candidates who support these):
1. Free public transportation.
2. Expansion of public transportation.
3. Proper bike lanes (which properly separates bikes from cars, if we're going to have bikes on the road anyway).
4. Higher wages, so people can survive in the meantime.
All those address your concerns without ordinary bikes sharing the road.
All I'm saying is that bikes sharing the roadway with cars doesn't make sense to me for the reasons I wrote above, and that I'm surprised more people don't feel the same way.
I support (mostly by voting for and donating to candidates who support these):
1. Free public transportation.
2. Expansion of public transportation.
3. Proper bike lanes (which properly separates bikes from cars, if we're going to have bikes on the road anyway).
4. Higher wages, so people can survive in the meantime.
All those address your concerns without ordinary bikes sharing the road.
All I'm saying is that bikes sharing the roadway with cars doesn't make sense to me for the reasons I wrote above, and that I'm surprised more people don't feel the same way.
You're never going to fund any of those, are you?
So no you don't support them.
So no you don't support them.
All of your comparisons assume that bikes and cars are the same, but they're not. A car weighs thousands of pounds, it has less visibility/manoeuvrability and goes much faster than a bicycle. The risk and responsibility with a car is much greater than a bicycle.
The reason why cyclists use the road is because it's often the only option. Even when there are bike lanes, many times they're right next to parked cars (dangerous), or cluttered with trash bins, garbage, or whatever else.
The reason why cyclists use the road is because it's often the only option. Even when there are bike lanes, many times they're right next to parked cars (dangerous), or cluttered with trash bins, garbage, or whatever else.
> All of your comparisons assume that bikes and cars are the same, but they're not.
I think you're starting to get my point. They're not the same, and don't belong together on the same roadway. We can't ban cars, so we should ban bikes.
Cyclists sharing the road with cars is not the only option. Not biking at all is a very valid option.
I think you're starting to get my point. They're not the same, and don't belong together on the same roadway. We can't ban cars, so we should ban bikes.
Cyclists sharing the road with cars is not the only option. Not biking at all is a very valid option.
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> They're not the same, and don't belong together on the same roadway
Yes
> should ban bikes
No
You can build bike infrastructure. Until then bikes will share the roads, and drivers will have to live with it.
Yes
> should ban bikes
No
You can build bike infrastructure. Until then bikes will share the roads, and drivers will have to live with it.
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Long term it might be better if we find a way out the the car-centric local maxima we find ourselves in, rather than heading further in that direction.
As you suggested in reply to a sibling comment, more bike lanes make sense. Parking on some roads could be converted to bike lanes. Perhaps it makes sense to lower the speed limits for cars, also.
As you suggested in reply to a sibling comment, more bike lanes make sense. Parking on some roads could be converted to bike lanes. Perhaps it makes sense to lower the speed limits for cars, also.
Isn't an escooter better at that point?
If you plan on riding on anything other than perfectly paved and mostly flat concrete the ebike is much more practical.
Point is the ebike actually gives you exercise. Low impact aerobic.
An escooter has all the bad things without the good thing
An escooter has all the bad things without the good thing
I see them as fulfilling different needs. An e-bike lets you go further, faster, travel more safely on mixed surfaces, and carry more cargo. An e-scooter is smaller and more portable, making it easier to store in apartments, at work, or integrate into public transit.
I find the balance on them and the wheel size to be pretty unsafe for a lot of roads. Also, some of the hills here, I end up having to push the scooter up anyway.
- $3300 + $1000 for upgrades/maintenance to cover 4k km works out to $1/km which is fairly expensive. Longer use will obviously amortize the cost further and the resale value of that bike is at least $2k, but still, I could buy a motorcycle/scooter and gear for similar money.
- Any US city I've lived in, riding such a bike to anywhere where I'd be leaving it out of sight for >5min is a non-starter because of rampant theft.
- Riding a sustained 20mph with a bicycle helmet without first developing the requisite skill to go that fast on a regular basis exposes you to much higher risk. Similar to if your first car had 400hp and no active safety features.