Ask HN: Is it still possible to live without a bank account?
66 comments
Quite a few underclass people are unbanked. We had a person from a troubled background living at our house who got to 30 without having a bank account or a primary care physician. Early on we took her to the local credit union to get an account; people like that are always getting money sent by Western Union and paying terrible fees.
(Here in the US we have numerous kinds of organization that look like a bank superficially but have different regulatory regimes: a credit union does what a bank does but is a consumer cooperative. I'd also say that many local and regional banks have a much better customer service attitude than megabanks. I own stock in a local bank that is great for the community and beats Goldman Sachs on the performance of the stock... I can't see why anybody has an account at Bank of America.)
People who grow cannabis also are unbanked.
(Here in the US we have numerous kinds of organization that look like a bank superficially but have different regulatory regimes: a credit union does what a bank does but is a consumer cooperative. I'd also say that many local and regional banks have a much better customer service attitude than megabanks. I own stock in a local bank that is great for the community and beats Goldman Sachs on the performance of the stock... I can't see why anybody has an account at Bank of America.)
People who grow cannabis also are unbanked.
> People who grow cannabis also are unbanked.
I know someone in the industry. They use a credit union that is structured to be in-state only.
I know someone in the industry. They use a credit union that is structured to be in-state only.
> People who grow cannabis also are unbanked.
Everyone in the legal marijuana business is unbanked, because (at least in the USA) banks can't do business with people who traffic federally illicit substances.
P.S. today is 4/20, blaze it!
Everyone in the legal marijuana business is unbanked, because (at least in the USA) banks can't do business with people who traffic federally illicit substances.
P.S. today is 4/20, blaze it!
The business is unbanked but are the owners and employees really unbanked? How do payroll and taxes work in that industry?
>How do payroll and taxes work in that industry?
I don't have personal knowledge of the marijuana industry, but IRS's site says they accept cash and Money Orders.
There's a $1,000 per day limit for cash, so it's not really feasible for large businesses. Instead, I think you can make Money Orders by going to Western Union or USPS, if banks are to be avoided.
[0] https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/irs-payment-options
I don't have personal knowledge of the marijuana industry, but IRS's site says they accept cash and Money Orders.
There's a $1,000 per day limit for cash, so it's not really feasible for large businesses. Instead, I think you can make Money Orders by going to Western Union or USPS, if banks are to be avoided.
[0] https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/irs-payment-options
Money orders also have a maximum amount. At USPS, the maximum amount is $1000.
The amount varies based on risk tolerance and AML/KYC laws. I used to work in a bank.
[deleted]
> P.S. today is 4/20, blaze it!
yeah! killer mann, we got no bank account brah. lets blaze!
yeah! killer mann, we got no bank account brah. lets blaze!
It's great that your co-habitant was able to open a bank account. Given fees, including credit union (low) minimums or activity rules, it's risky with an unsteady income stream.
To spend time worrying about this is time that will never be returned. And it continues for many as trust is asked for.
Yay stress. There was a lot of yelling outside today, my eye hurts.
To spend time worrying about this is time that will never be returned. And it continues for many as trust is asked for.
Yay stress. There was a lot of yelling outside today, my eye hurts.
"I'd also say that many local and regional banks have a much better customer service attitude than megabanks."
Better service, maybe. A lot of times they need to charge higher fees or give lower rates due to lacking economies of scale.
Better service, maybe. A lot of times they need to charge higher fees or give lower rates due to lacking economies of scale.
"Quite a few underclass people" and "people like that."
Do you work at a FAANG? I'm asking because I think that your attitude here just might spill over into your work. And if you build software for the masses while thinking of them/us as "people like that" it is likely to result in a frustrating experience for you and a poor experience for your user.
Do you work at a FAANG? I'm asking because I think that your attitude here just might spill over into your work. And if you build software for the masses while thinking of them/us as "people like that" it is likely to result in a frustrating experience for you and a poor experience for your user.
No I think I have some medical condition that makes me come across as insensitive.
> I can't see why anybody has an account at Bank of America
5.25% cash back over 90% of my expenses.
5.25% cash back over 90% of my expenses.
I haven't tried, but it seems to be a massive headache.
First off - how would you get paid? AFAIK, employers are not obliged to pay you in cash. So you get a paycheck - how do you cash it? You go to a bank, post office, or stores that will let you cash out the check. But that's against a fee, and to be honest, it's 20 years ago since I last cashed a check - so I wouldn't know how much those fees are today.
You now have cash in hand, and you need to pay your bills - so you walk down to the nearest bank, or similar business that offers the service. Again, you'll probably have to pay a free for each processing.
But let us for a moment assume that you live out in nowhere, with no such services available? That's my case right now. The nearest bank is a 7 hour drive from where I live! All the commercial banks near me have closed down, due to everything being done online these days.
So, yes, it should be possible - but it sounds like a hassle. And there are predatory industries that solely exist to prey on the unbanked people of society.
And in the long run, it'll probably just be an uphill battle. Governments all over the world are moving away from physical cas.
First off - how would you get paid? AFAIK, employers are not obliged to pay you in cash. So you get a paycheck - how do you cash it? You go to a bank, post office, or stores that will let you cash out the check. But that's against a fee, and to be honest, it's 20 years ago since I last cashed a check - so I wouldn't know how much those fees are today.
You now have cash in hand, and you need to pay your bills - so you walk down to the nearest bank, or similar business that offers the service. Again, you'll probably have to pay a free for each processing.
But let us for a moment assume that you live out in nowhere, with no such services available? That's my case right now. The nearest bank is a 7 hour drive from where I live! All the commercial banks near me have closed down, due to everything being done online these days.
So, yes, it should be possible - but it sounds like a hassle. And there are predatory industries that solely exist to prey on the unbanked people of society.
And in the long run, it'll probably just be an uphill battle. Governments all over the world are moving away from physical cas.
Last time I tried cashing a check at a USPS they refused.
The main options today are getting raped at a payday loan kind of place where they take 40% and all your PII, or just go to the issuing bank assuming they have a retail presence near you.
The main options today are getting raped at a payday loan kind of place where they take 40% and all your PII, or just go to the issuing bank assuming they have a retail presence near you.
>getting raped at a payday loan kind of place where they take 40% and all your PII
I think that's an exaggeration. At least, the last time I went to a check cashing place in the early 2000s, that was not true. Fees are high compared to banks, but not 40%, come on.
Wouldn't one of the main reasons you do that and don't get a bank account be because you are not authorized to be/work/etc in the US? So "all your PII" doesn't ring true to me, nor was it my experience although times were different.
I think that's an exaggeration. At least, the last time I went to a check cashing place in the early 2000s, that was not true. Fees are high compared to banks, but not 40%, come on.
Wouldn't one of the main reasons you do that and don't get a bank account be because you are not authorized to be/work/etc in the US? So "all your PII" doesn't ring true to me, nor was it my experience although times were different.
I only tried it once at a payday loan place in a shithole town a few years ago.
They required enough PII to run a credit check and wouldn't even say how much of a cut they were going to require until they collected all that information, saying it depended on the results. After some back and forth they said as high as 40% would be the fee.
Clearly I passed, but I had options, this was mostly a curiosity combined with an awkward situation. The locals keeping the place in business were getting shafted.
They required enough PII to run a credit check and wouldn't even say how much of a cut they were going to require until they collected all that information, saying it depended on the results. After some back and forth they said as high as 40% would be the fee.
Clearly I passed, but I had options, this was mostly a curiosity combined with an awkward situation. The locals keeping the place in business were getting shafted.
The main option is usually the local liquor store. They usually charge 1-3%, although some do a flat fee - $5-10.
I’m sure it is possible because poor people do it all the time.
For most people for whom banks tend to make sense, it seems like an avoidable source of friction at best and a poor dying-upon-hill in general considering credit cards are issued by banks so online is out.
I mean once you’re six sigmas bought in to the system by running a legitimate business, it’s not a very high moral high ground assuming it is moral high ground at all.
For most people for whom banks tend to make sense, it seems like an avoidable source of friction at best and a poor dying-upon-hill in general considering credit cards are issued by banks so online is out.
I mean once you’re six sigmas bought in to the system by running a legitimate business, it’s not a very high moral high ground assuming it is moral high ground at all.
You can but it turns out to be expensive.
-You can cash your paycheck at a check cashing place for a fee. Or at some stores but they expect you to buy stuff there.
-No checks, buy a money order. For a fee...
-No credit card, buy one that takes a % fee
-You'll need to keep your cash in a safe place. There is no such place. Some one will find it and likely take it.
-No bank, no credit
-No credit no reasonable loans. You might get one but it will be at a high percentage, in the 100%+.
-No credit, no mortgage, no property
-No long term savings , no retirement savings
It turns out that a cash only based life style is inconvenient and expensive.
I think the inability to save makes it hard to plan for the future. In a way it makes it hard to escape it so the longer you are in it the harder it is to escape it.
I've wondered if being unbanked shortens your life. Especially if you need to constantly protect your money from thieves and the dangers that come from that .
-You can cash your paycheck at a check cashing place for a fee. Or at some stores but they expect you to buy stuff there.
-No checks, buy a money order. For a fee...
-No credit card, buy one that takes a % fee
-You'll need to keep your cash in a safe place. There is no such place. Some one will find it and likely take it.
-No bank, no credit
-No credit no reasonable loans. You might get one but it will be at a high percentage, in the 100%+.
-No credit, no mortgage, no property
-No long term savings , no retirement savings
It turns out that a cash only based life style is inconvenient and expensive.
I think the inability to save makes it hard to plan for the future. In a way it makes it hard to escape it so the longer you are in it the harder it is to escape it.
I've wondered if being unbanked shortens your life. Especially if you need to constantly protect your money from thieves and the dangers that come from that .
> You can but it turns out to be expensive.
This! It can be done but it's incredibly hard and expensive; hence the phrase 'it's expensive being poor,' because they often do not have access to banking or financial services.
I tried getting a rental property by just offering 6 months rent up-front and a large deposit in a major tech town, because I had it in cash and didn't want to share more info than I needed to with the homeowner: they flat-out refused and demanded to see my pay-stubs and banking records for the last 2 years if I still wanted to move in.
This an incredibly common problem for many other Industries that are subject to financial censorship--it forces you to the extremes of everything as a result.
> I've wondered if being unbanked shortens your life. Especially if you need to constantly protect your money from thieves and the dangers that come from that .
Dealt with the backpage ladies needing help and many founders in the cannabis Industry needing financial services and payment processing as well as a store of wealth due to the massive amounts of cash on location: the short answer is a resounding YES!
This! It can be done but it's incredibly hard and expensive; hence the phrase 'it's expensive being poor,' because they often do not have access to banking or financial services.
I tried getting a rental property by just offering 6 months rent up-front and a large deposit in a major tech town, because I had it in cash and didn't want to share more info than I needed to with the homeowner: they flat-out refused and demanded to see my pay-stubs and banking records for the last 2 years if I still wanted to move in.
This an incredibly common problem for many other Industries that are subject to financial censorship--it forces you to the extremes of everything as a result.
> I've wondered if being unbanked shortens your life. Especially if you need to constantly protect your money from thieves and the dangers that come from that .
Dealt with the backpage ladies needing help and many founders in the cannabis Industry needing financial services and payment processing as well as a store of wealth due to the massive amounts of cash on location: the short answer is a resounding YES!
>I tried getting a rental property by just offering 6 months rent up-front and a large deposit in a major tech town, because I had it in cash and didn't want to share more info than I needed to with the homeowner: they flat-out refused and demanded to see my pay-stubs and banking records for the last 2 years if I still wanted to move in.
Trying to solve your problems with money and failing is not evidence that it's expensive to be poor; it suggests you have blinders preventing you from doing the normal thing.
Within a few miles there are/were apartments that you could move into with two months' rent in cash up front. That would not be more expensive than the kind you're used to.
Trying to solve your problems with money and failing is not evidence that it's expensive to be poor; it suggests you have blinders preventing you from doing the normal thing.
Within a few miles there are/were apartments that you could move into with two months' rent in cash up front. That would not be more expensive than the kind you're used to.
> Trying to solve your problems with money and failing is not evidence that it's expensive to be poor; it suggests you have blinders preventing you from doing the normal thing.
OK, it seems I have elucidate my point for you: in this case I may have had the cash, but I refused to give my banking information, emulating what a person who may not be legal and therefore do not have access to banking or other financial services.
This may not be a direct parallel, but I do have other examples of how from personal experience I realized that being poor is expensive; student debt being a prime example.
What I'm saying is that I built my startup to service people who were denied banking and financial services, and I got my 'privilege checked' and realized just how costly it is to be really poor.
OK, it seems I have elucidate my point for you: in this case I may have had the cash, but I refused to give my banking information, emulating what a person who may not be legal and therefore do not have access to banking or other financial services.
This may not be a direct parallel, but I do have other examples of how from personal experience I realized that being poor is expensive; student debt being a prime example.
What I'm saying is that I built my startup to service people who were denied banking and financial services, and I got my 'privilege checked' and realized just how costly it is to be really poor.
Now I have “backpage ladies“ in my search history
> Now I have “backpage ladies“ in my search history
Click here [0] if you want the simplest rebuttal to the tools on HN saying BTC has no and will never have a usecase.
In short: we proved them wrong a long time ago, they just are reluctant to find out why and how because it might taint their search history--likely while having no qualms with watching hentai or some other absurd kink on pornhub.
Honestly, it was a a really good life experience albeit sad most times; most were just single moms needing to pay rent or buy diapers and on their last few bucks before getting evicted from their homes. They were shocked how we were the few people to treat them with any dignity and looked at them in the eye after telling us what they did.
Most people here play with tech as it's a novelty or a toy, Bitcoiners build tech for things that most affluent people who work in tech will never need or require so they dismiss and then bitch and have sour grapes about 'not getting in before it mooned' not realizing this wasn't a get rich quick scheme but rather a network we used to onboard all the people most technologists never consider which has gained value over time. More than likely because they are used will exploit those same people for their own or their employer's (FAANG) benefit.
It's hard to imagine back then that anyone believed Bitcoiners would be holding lectures at Stanford on startup culture because we were so fringe and built this tech for the most marginalized of the World in mind: like the backpage ladies. But then came Balaji, and then Thiel, and now Musk etc... Bitcoin does that, it gets you when you deserve to be in and for most that simply hasn't happened yet.
It's a self-vetting system in many ways.
It's hard to believe but this tech was it's roots from the cypherpunk meetups and mailing lists in the Bay area in the 90s which is unfathomable when you see what it's become now.
Sidenote: I made a screenplay influenced by the webcam girls I met in Denver back in that time during my startup, it's based in South Korea but it has it's origins form all the experiences these ladies told me about as many became regular clients of ours who were wanting to learn to buy/sell bitcoin. Those girls still put all these modern onlyfans chicks to shame in terms of entrepreneurialism and probably could run a YC backed startup after managing themselves in that wild World.
0: https://bravenewcoin.com/insights/backpage-goes-bitcoin-only
Click here [0] if you want the simplest rebuttal to the tools on HN saying BTC has no and will never have a usecase.
In short: we proved them wrong a long time ago, they just are reluctant to find out why and how because it might taint their search history--likely while having no qualms with watching hentai or some other absurd kink on pornhub.
Honestly, it was a a really good life experience albeit sad most times; most were just single moms needing to pay rent or buy diapers and on their last few bucks before getting evicted from their homes. They were shocked how we were the few people to treat them with any dignity and looked at them in the eye after telling us what they did.
Most people here play with tech as it's a novelty or a toy, Bitcoiners build tech for things that most affluent people who work in tech will never need or require so they dismiss and then bitch and have sour grapes about 'not getting in before it mooned' not realizing this wasn't a get rich quick scheme but rather a network we used to onboard all the people most technologists never consider which has gained value over time. More than likely because they are used will exploit those same people for their own or their employer's (FAANG) benefit.
It's hard to imagine back then that anyone believed Bitcoiners would be holding lectures at Stanford on startup culture because we were so fringe and built this tech for the most marginalized of the World in mind: like the backpage ladies. But then came Balaji, and then Thiel, and now Musk etc... Bitcoin does that, it gets you when you deserve to be in and for most that simply hasn't happened yet.
It's a self-vetting system in many ways.
It's hard to believe but this tech was it's roots from the cypherpunk meetups and mailing lists in the Bay area in the 90s which is unfathomable when you see what it's become now.
Sidenote: I made a screenplay influenced by the webcam girls I met in Denver back in that time during my startup, it's based in South Korea but it has it's origins form all the experiences these ladies told me about as many became regular clients of ours who were wanting to learn to buy/sell bitcoin. Those girls still put all these modern onlyfans chicks to shame in terms of entrepreneurialism and probably could run a YC backed startup after managing themselves in that wild World.
0: https://bravenewcoin.com/insights/backpage-goes-bitcoin-only
It's impossible in Germany. I help people migrate to Germany, and getting them a bank account is an unavoidable step.
You won't get paid in cash. You won't pay your rent in cash. You will need it to register a business, get social assistance, pay for your health insurance and a lot more.
You are legally entitled to a free bank account, but it's still difficult to open one while you wait for your residence permit and address registration (both of which can require a bank account).
This is a major problem for Ukrainian refugees at the moment. The government wants a bank account to pay social benefits, but banks won't let them open one with the papers they have.
I have a whole section of my website dedicated to that cluster of issues and it's very popular.
You won't get paid in cash. You won't pay your rent in cash. You will need it to register a business, get social assistance, pay for your health insurance and a lot more.
You are legally entitled to a free bank account, but it's still difficult to open one while you wait for your residence permit and address registration (both of which can require a bank account).
This is a major problem for Ukrainian refugees at the moment. The government wants a bank account to pay social benefits, but banks won't let them open one with the papers they have.
I have a whole section of my website dedicated to that cluster of issues and it's very popular.
I have a credit union account. I don't pay any fees at all.
As a business I would imagine fees would be pretty irrelevant, if the business was profitable.
Being actually unbanked sounds pretty awful. Even if it did have a fee I would still rather pay it that deal with cash, since fees are usually around $5, which is 20 minutes at $15 an hour, and the total inconvenience would probably feel like more than 1 minute a day.
As a business I would imagine fees would be pretty irrelevant, if the business was profitable.
Being actually unbanked sounds pretty awful. Even if it did have a fee I would still rather pay it that deal with cash, since fees are usually around $5, which is 20 minutes at $15 an hour, and the total inconvenience would probably feel like more than 1 minute a day.
https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/percent_people_ban...
It looks like some people manage. I would assume that most people in Western countries who do not hold a bank account have access to one by proxy (like a married couple where the account is in the name of one of the two, etc.).
As a business, unless you’re a small brick and mortar shop, I don’t see how you could get any customers without accepting anything else than cash/cheque payments (and I don’t know how easy it is in France to cash in cheques without a bank account). Paying ISP and mobile phone bills in cash is likely a misery, but other than that (and a lot of queuing in various places every month), it should be doable.
The postal banking here in France is good and cheap enough that it wouldn’t make economical sense to not use it.
It looks like some people manage. I would assume that most people in Western countries who do not hold a bank account have access to one by proxy (like a married couple where the account is in the name of one of the two, etc.).
As a business, unless you’re a small brick and mortar shop, I don’t see how you could get any customers without accepting anything else than cash/cheque payments (and I don’t know how easy it is in France to cash in cheques without a bank account). Paying ISP and mobile phone bills in cash is likely a misery, but other than that (and a lot of queuing in various places every month), it should be doable.
The postal banking here in France is good and cheap enough that it wouldn’t make economical sense to not use it.
I know people that have had no bank for years.
One of them got one of those 'bluebird' cards.. like a prepaid debit card from American Express.. free to add money via direct deposit I think.. can add cash as walmarts cheap, dollar generals a little more, walgreens a bit higher.. can get free at many ATMs a small fee at others..
From what I understand the bluebird now has two versions(?) and one is more like an online bank system..
They must of put a hurt on greenDot cards as I've seen some of those advertised that they no longer charge $10 a month to have them - but I think there are some that do.
Living without a credit card is getting interesting.. Enterprise is no longer renting cars to me here in this mid size city without a CC (although they said I can bring a copy of a mortgage deed and utility bill and insurance paperwork from same addy to bypass) - some hotels are not letting you checkin without credit cards these days - meh.
One of them got one of those 'bluebird' cards.. like a prepaid debit card from American Express.. free to add money via direct deposit I think.. can add cash as walmarts cheap, dollar generals a little more, walgreens a bit higher.. can get free at many ATMs a small fee at others..
From what I understand the bluebird now has two versions(?) and one is more like an online bank system..
They must of put a hurt on greenDot cards as I've seen some of those advertised that they no longer charge $10 a month to have them - but I think there are some that do.
Living without a credit card is getting interesting.. Enterprise is no longer renting cars to me here in this mid size city without a CC (although they said I can bring a copy of a mortgage deed and utility bill and insurance paperwork from same addy to bypass) - some hotels are not letting you checkin without credit cards these days - meh.
Bluebird was wonderful until AMEX sold it. They did it rather quietly <at least we never saw anything about the sale> until three years after it happened. We got lucky, I was going to refill our card and kept having trouble, checked the Bluebird twitter account and found hundreds of customer complaints about lost funds and locked accounts.
Have you tried Privacy.com? They offer Virtual, one-time use cards which sound like they would solve your car rental/hotel problem.
Have you tried Privacy.com? They offer Virtual, one-time use cards which sound like they would solve your car rental/hotel problem.
Yes, the concierge company that handles essentially all of our expenses accepts cryptocurrency. It’s probably been a couple of years since I paid anything from my own bank account.
Meals are usually prepaid by the concierge or local hotel staff, they also handle all of our household staff.
Meals are usually prepaid by the concierge or local hotel staff, they also handle all of our household staff.
Been looking for something like this - what are they called?
Can you put an email or other form of contact in your profile? Happy to make a referral, but they’re not interested in clients with below 250k GBP annual travel expenses.
"So, I'm wondering: is it still possible as a private individual to operate without a bank account? What about doing so as a business?"
Not really. You could, but it would take a lot of effort.
Many places don't accept cash, like paying the power bill (could get cashiers checks). Unless you have full cash for a house, you need an account for the pedigree of your mortgage down payment. Some jobs only do direct deposit. Without any credit vehicles (cards, loans, etc, which are technically accounts), it can be hard to even get a place to rent if they do credit checks.
Not really. You could, but it would take a lot of effort.
Many places don't accept cash, like paying the power bill (could get cashiers checks). Unless you have full cash for a house, you need an account for the pedigree of your mortgage down payment. Some jobs only do direct deposit. Without any credit vehicles (cards, loans, etc, which are technically accounts), it can be hard to even get a place to rent if they do credit checks.
What is your standard of “operating”? Are you talking about just you not having a bank account, or are you trying to not even be bank-adjacent?
For example, it is really hard to pay rent without a bank account in average circumstances, but if you have a roommate that will take your cash and has an account, that makes things easier.
I’d suggest trying it out. The answer has more to do with the requirements of your lifestyle than some arbitrary concept of “possible operation.”
Do you consider unbanked homeless people as “operating” people? If not, what do you call them?
For example, it is really hard to pay rent without a bank account in average circumstances, but if you have a roommate that will take your cash and has an account, that makes things easier.
I’d suggest trying it out. The answer has more to do with the requirements of your lifestyle than some arbitrary concept of “possible operation.”
Do you consider unbanked homeless people as “operating” people? If not, what do you call them?
At least in Britain, you could pay the money into the landlord's account, with no fee.
Ask for the account number (as if making an electronic transfer), take the cash to their bank, and deposit it into their account.
Of course, there's the hassle of going to a bank during opening time.
The same process can be used to pay bills, and bills used to come with a special deposit slip pre-filled.
Ask for the account number (as if making an electronic transfer), take the cash to their bank, and deposit it into their account.
Of course, there's the hassle of going to a bank during opening time.
The same process can be used to pay bills, and bills used to come with a special deposit slip pre-filled.
My previous landlord that I had for nearly a decade was happy to take cash for renting out a suite, my bigger problem would have been that it’s difficult to get much software development work that pays in cash. (Would cheque be any more useful? Without an account, I’m not sure how’d you’d cash a cheque for non-trivial sums.)
There's an entire business of check-cashing places. They just take an obnoxiously large cut.
If your personal banks (in the US) are charging you fees, you need to find different banks or stop doing the things that require fees.
National commercial banks do like to find fees for everything, but most/many credit unions have 'no fee' accounts, and so do a lot of banks. Sometimes no fee means a lot of hoop jumping, but often not.
Business banking is different; a lot of credit unions don't touch business banking, and there's a lot more services businesses might need so more nickel and diming to take place.
National commercial banks do like to find fees for everything, but most/many credit unions have 'no fee' accounts, and so do a lot of banks. Sometimes no fee means a lot of hoop jumping, but often not.
Business banking is different; a lot of credit unions don't touch business banking, and there's a lot more services businesses might need so more nickel and diming to take place.
Possible? Yes.
But bank accounts make many things much, much more convenient.
But bank accounts make many things much, much more convenient.
I know of several large retailers that allow their employees to be paid via a debit card.
If you don't setup direct deposit before your first paycheck, instead of mailing you the paycheck you get a debit card. You can then withdraw the full balance out of it every two weeks without any fees.
This doesn't help with all of your banking problems, but it's a good start.
If you don't setup direct deposit before your first paycheck, instead of mailing you the paycheck you get a debit card. You can then withdraw the full balance out of it every two weeks without any fees.
This doesn't help with all of your banking problems, but it's a good start.
In Sweden it is almost impossible, not only many places don't accept cash, your main way of identification in online services is a Bank ID which is issued by Banks and requires some-kind of an account.
Can it be done? yes to some degree but you will need to sacrifice a lot and not only convenience
Can it be done? yes to some degree but you will need to sacrifice a lot and not only convenience
It's common enough in the 'underclass' or whatever you want to call it, but they more or less live like it's 1960. Cash. Barter. For things like cel phone, well, I have a friend who will get a banked person to add her to their plan, then pay them in cash or labor.
If you don’t have an account to deposit a check into, you can usually take it to the issuing bank to cash it. I’ve done this many times at many different banks, the only place to charge a fee was BoA.
just remembered - it seems 90% (?) of the planet fitness gyms won't let you join unless you have bank account / routing number to give them to take dues from.
I would of joined one and gotten a few others to at least try it out - but that just seems shady (hard to cancel / no chargeback for shady actions) - what kind of business relationships are they trying to take the power over in.
I would of joined one and gotten a few others to at least try it out - but that just seems shady (hard to cancel / no chargeback for shady actions) - what kind of business relationships are they trying to take the power over in.
You don't need a bank account to use PayPal. So in theory you can use PayPal to receive and spend money.
This is actually a very good way to filter out people. If someone doesn't have a bank account, there's a good chance they don't have legitimate work.
Alternatively, they could have had serious financial problems in the past and thus are blocked from opening a checking account. Either way, it's a very bad idea to get involved with them.
Alternatively, they could have had serious financial problems in the past and thus are blocked from opening a checking account. Either way, it's a very bad idea to get involved with them.
It’s only a good filter for whether or not someone is or has been poor. It’s a terrible filter for determining someone’s character.
I’d even venture to guess there are far more criminals and generally unsavory characters with a bank account than without.
I’d even venture to guess there are far more criminals and generally unsavory characters with a bank account than without.
I don't want to be around people who don't have their lives together.
I learned this the hard way in my early twenties. If someone can't handle basic things like having a bank account, there's a good chance the rest of their life isn't all that great. And even being around someone like this can have severe consequences.
I learned this the hard way in my early twenties. If someone can't handle basic things like having a bank account, there's a good chance the rest of their life isn't all that great. And even being around someone like this can have severe consequences.
Likewise, if someone can’t handle basic things like having empathy there is good chance the rest of their life isn’t all that great. And even being around someone like this can have severe consequences.
I'm from the hood.
I grew up on welfare, and with this in mind I'm extremely carefully who I'm around. If you've had such a privilege life that you can't understand what I'm trying to say. Good for you.
But for someone like myself, it's extremely easy for even a single person who's not on the right path to completely disrupt my life. Usually if someone doesn't have a bank account, they don't have legitimate work. Even hanging out with someone like this can get you locked up.
I will admit I'm extra careful given my background.
I'll give you another example. One of my friends had to break up with her husband since he was horrible with money and plugged her deep into credit card debt. Does this make her some horrible person lacking empathy. Of course not.
She just prefers to pay her bills on time.
I grew up on welfare, and with this in mind I'm extremely carefully who I'm around. If you've had such a privilege life that you can't understand what I'm trying to say. Good for you.
But for someone like myself, it's extremely easy for even a single person who's not on the right path to completely disrupt my life. Usually if someone doesn't have a bank account, they don't have legitimate work. Even hanging out with someone like this can get you locked up.
I will admit I'm extra careful given my background.
I'll give you another example. One of my friends had to break up with her husband since he was horrible with money and plugged her deep into credit card debt. Does this make her some horrible person lacking empathy. Of course not.
She just prefers to pay her bills on time.
Luckily, this also works in reverse. If someone is too narrowminded and judgmental to understand that not everybody starts off the same way in life as far as education etc and is obnoxious, you can use their behavior as a filter.
If you think that's difficult... try living without a smartphone :(
I've been doing that since 1965.
The last two years here have made this much harder. A good chunk of the restaurants around here can't be bothered to print menu's anymore. Its QR code + phone or go somewhere else. Similarly with credit cards, even trying to use cash at the farmers market has gotten much more difficult in the last couple years as the vendors have all gotten card readers and stopped accepting cash.
Plus, it seems like piles of people think text messages are a form of security and want to text everything from a receipt to pin codes. Much of this sorta makes me sick because some of these "solutions" are much worse than what they are replacing (e-menus are overwhelmingly trash for example, web people should be forced to take desktop publishing classes before being allowed near HTML).
Plus, it seems like piles of people think text messages are a form of security and want to text everything from a receipt to pin codes. Much of this sorta makes me sick because some of these "solutions" are much worse than what they are replacing (e-menus are overwhelmingly trash for example, web people should be forced to take desktop publishing classes before being allowed near HTML).
I've had that once and they immediately handed a tablet to use so it wasn't a problem.
Here in Europe, banks are now kinda forcing people to use their mobile applications as a "security measure" (2FA, etc). Not doing so can prevent you from using your credit cards online or in some shops. It's probably the main reason I have a smartphone.
Have you ever had those issues before? How do you cope with it?
Have you ever had those issues before? How do you cope with it?
I picked a bank that uses a physical token that has a little computer in it and does a challenge-response for the authorization.
I wasted hours on the phone to a bank just yesterday, and as the architect of a major crypto exchange (last gig) and international entrepreneur spanning China/non-China (current gig) have had ~maximum scope for degrees-of-unbanked both personally and as a business, experiencing related pain points across multiple jurisdictions as well as living the here-now China 'dream' of 100% mobile money.
At a high level, while banks theoretically primarily provided the 'don't get mugged' service in the past, presently they also importantly provide de-facto services like: taxation and AML choke point for government, identity verification and re-authentication services, lost funds debugging, due legal process for dead and mentally unwell people, bridge to third party settlement networks, evidence-of-funds, evidence-of-income, capital provisioning and macro-economic policy implementation partner with respect to state-usury and inflation, etc.
Even if you don't require the "don't get mugged" service (eg. your superyacht is packed with bullion and you travel with a private army), you may find it hard to deal with others (eg. how do you pre-pay for mooring locations, new army recruits, satellite telecomms services or carry permits before you moor the yacht at your tax haven/island of choice?). Using a more down to earth example, you'll find it hard to purchase tickets to travel, food to eat, or restore access to funds if you forget your crypto password, have a stroke, become bedridden, lose your stuff in a fire or get mugged. Similarly, getting a loan or immigrating will become impossible (no proof of income/funds). Excusing the tongue in cheek examples, removing banks thus causes social fabric issues, despite the fact that everyone hates them.
IMHO it's becoming globally more viable due to new technology (mobile money, statecoins, etc.) but replacing the bank with the third party crypto-exchange (crypto-liberatarian dream at the facade, heavily yoked to techno-capitalism and existing state bank control mechanisms behind the scenes) or directly to the state (digital yuan/statecoins) is just shifting rather than solving the problem.
As it seems you are wondering about interest rates, that's less about banks (FWIW I used to share a house with someone on the interest rate committee for the Bank of England) as they basically echo the government numbers (and then add some). Interest rates at the national level are more about macro-economic policy which is political, and a case may be made that they are a requirement from governments in turn for participation global capitalism and real world supply chains for societies that rely on global resource extraction. Put simply: if you want a functional post-industrial society currently the only way to achieve that is through global trade, and if you're going to join that bandwagon you have to deal with inflation as a matter of course. Of all the available political macro-economic levers, central bank interest rates are among the least disruptive and most timely we've come up with. After all, if you don't like it, change currencies.
In short: if you're mostly worried about bank fees, change banks. If you're mostly worried about interest rates, change currencies or get out of fiat currencies entirely and in to a broader portfolio, eg. real estate, stock, commodities. If you want to reorganize society to libertarian ideals and plant a vegetable garden, better get ready to give up all your technology and prepare for political and economic irrelevance... and you might still get mugged for vegetables.
At a high level, while banks theoretically primarily provided the 'don't get mugged' service in the past, presently they also importantly provide de-facto services like: taxation and AML choke point for government, identity verification and re-authentication services, lost funds debugging, due legal process for dead and mentally unwell people, bridge to third party settlement networks, evidence-of-funds, evidence-of-income, capital provisioning and macro-economic policy implementation partner with respect to state-usury and inflation, etc.
Even if you don't require the "don't get mugged" service (eg. your superyacht is packed with bullion and you travel with a private army), you may find it hard to deal with others (eg. how do you pre-pay for mooring locations, new army recruits, satellite telecomms services or carry permits before you moor the yacht at your tax haven/island of choice?). Using a more down to earth example, you'll find it hard to purchase tickets to travel, food to eat, or restore access to funds if you forget your crypto password, have a stroke, become bedridden, lose your stuff in a fire or get mugged. Similarly, getting a loan or immigrating will become impossible (no proof of income/funds). Excusing the tongue in cheek examples, removing banks thus causes social fabric issues, despite the fact that everyone hates them.
IMHO it's becoming globally more viable due to new technology (mobile money, statecoins, etc.) but replacing the bank with the third party crypto-exchange (crypto-liberatarian dream at the facade, heavily yoked to techno-capitalism and existing state bank control mechanisms behind the scenes) or directly to the state (digital yuan/statecoins) is just shifting rather than solving the problem.
As it seems you are wondering about interest rates, that's less about banks (FWIW I used to share a house with someone on the interest rate committee for the Bank of England) as they basically echo the government numbers (and then add some). Interest rates at the national level are more about macro-economic policy which is political, and a case may be made that they are a requirement from governments in turn for participation global capitalism and real world supply chains for societies that rely on global resource extraction. Put simply: if you want a functional post-industrial society currently the only way to achieve that is through global trade, and if you're going to join that bandwagon you have to deal with inflation as a matter of course. Of all the available political macro-economic levers, central bank interest rates are among the least disruptive and most timely we've come up with. After all, if you don't like it, change currencies.
In short: if you're mostly worried about bank fees, change banks. If you're mostly worried about interest rates, change currencies or get out of fiat currencies entirely and in to a broader portfolio, eg. real estate, stock, commodities. If you want to reorganize society to libertarian ideals and plant a vegetable garden, better get ready to give up all your technology and prepare for political and economic irrelevance... and you might still get mugged for vegetables.
There's obviously the 'move to the forest' option.
Can one live in society without a bank account?
Sure prepaid cards that can be loaded up with $ to pay for the usual things like cellphone bill.
Cash is king. Crypto will probably be something that comes along soon.
All these things basically let you get around a bank account and equivalently let you move your butt to somewhere you will be accepted.
>Is anybody here doing this?
While Canadian politicians did recently seize bank accounts subverting the judicial system and violating the human right against search/seizure...
I still have my bank account. I encourage the government to come take my debt. Not much else going on there lol.
Can one live in society without a bank account?
Sure prepaid cards that can be loaded up with $ to pay for the usual things like cellphone bill.
Cash is king. Crypto will probably be something that comes along soon.
All these things basically let you get around a bank account and equivalently let you move your butt to somewhere you will be accepted.
>Is anybody here doing this?
While Canadian politicians did recently seize bank accounts subverting the judicial system and violating the human right against search/seizure...
I still have my bank account. I encourage the government to come take my debt. Not much else going on there lol.
Fastforward 60 years: it seems to me as though it has gotten to the point that operating without a bank account is neigh-on impossible, especially for businesses. Which has - predictably - led to one rate increase after another, especially with interest rates near zero banks need other sources of income or they won't be able to make their 'quarterly earnings targets', which are apparently somehow set in stone and shall be satisfied come what may.
So, I'm wondering: is it still possible as a private individual to operate without a bank account? What about doing so as a business?
Is anybody here doing this?