Ten years of trying to meditate(ammarmian.substack.com)
ammarmian.substack.com
Ten years of trying to meditate
https://ammarmian.substack.com/p/why-i-meditate-part-1
131 comments
Great piece! I’ve had a rambling zen practice for over 20 years and little of it has been the tranquil, peaceful experience that people imply when they colloquially call something ‘zen’. But totally worth it. And as you rightly pointed out, the act of just noticing can be done in motion as well as at rest. Thx for sharing…
Btw, I’m a big fan of Shinzen Young who has a secular/scientific(-ish) approach that combines various world traditions in a hybrid sorta MMA does with martial arts.
https://www.shinzen.org/
Btw, I’m a big fan of Shinzen Young who has a secular/scientific(-ish) approach that combines various world traditions in a hybrid sorta MMA does with martial arts.
https://www.shinzen.org/
Love Shinzen! His Outline for Practice was fundamental in me discovering that there are different meditation maps that present different flavors of “progress”/“realization”
https://www.shinzen.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/AnOutline...
https://www.shinzen.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/AnOutline...
Thank you for mentioning Shinzen Young, I didn't know about him and just checked his website. It looks like there's some crossover with Sam Harris' "Waking Up" [1], do you happen to know how they compare?
[1] https://www.wakingup.com/
[1] https://www.wakingup.com/
Another resource that might appeal to the HN type is The Mind Illuminated, by John Yates (a.k.a. Culadasa).
I was in a similar rut for a while. I had a sense that meditation could help me deal with various mental health issues, but I couldn't do it: I just spent my sessions being bored and annoyed with myself. I tried picking it up many times but never got momentum.
After a few years of this I finally bit the bullet and went on a 10-day meditation retreat. ~12 hours a day of meditating, no books or talking or exercise. The first days were tough, all that boredom and irritation was still there and I had to sit with it for many, many hours. But I felt like I'd made a big commitment in going there, so I sat it out. The solidarity of a couple dozen other students going through the same thing helped a lot too, even if we weren't supposed to acknowledge each other's existence.
On the third or fourth day a switch kind of flipped in my brain and it was no longer hard to sit perfectly still for an hour.
At that point I guess I had learned the basic skill of meditating, and it's stuck with me. As long as I'm somewhere reasonably quiet and distraction-free I can get back into that state within a few minutes.
Also, as a side note, some of the Buddhist philosophy was also helpful. I originally perceived mental illness as similar to physical disease: people are generally healthy, and sometimes there's something wrong with you that needs to be treated and corrected, usually by a doctor of some kind. In Buddhism the script is flipped: existence is suffering by default, and most people require some kind of deliberate work to come to terms with their own existence. I get that it won't resonate with everyone, but in my case it helped a lot to view what I was going through as a manifestation of ordinary human suffering rather than some special, unusually intractable mental health condition.
EDIT: Also, shit gets intense when you keep ratcheting up your concentration and introspection. Getting past the boredom and being able to sit still for an hour is just a first step.
After a few years of this I finally bit the bullet and went on a 10-day meditation retreat. ~12 hours a day of meditating, no books or talking or exercise. The first days were tough, all that boredom and irritation was still there and I had to sit with it for many, many hours. But I felt like I'd made a big commitment in going there, so I sat it out. The solidarity of a couple dozen other students going through the same thing helped a lot too, even if we weren't supposed to acknowledge each other's existence.
On the third or fourth day a switch kind of flipped in my brain and it was no longer hard to sit perfectly still for an hour.
At that point I guess I had learned the basic skill of meditating, and it's stuck with me. As long as I'm somewhere reasonably quiet and distraction-free I can get back into that state within a few minutes.
Also, as a side note, some of the Buddhist philosophy was also helpful. I originally perceived mental illness as similar to physical disease: people are generally healthy, and sometimes there's something wrong with you that needs to be treated and corrected, usually by a doctor of some kind. In Buddhism the script is flipped: existence is suffering by default, and most people require some kind of deliberate work to come to terms with their own existence. I get that it won't resonate with everyone, but in my case it helped a lot to view what I was going through as a manifestation of ordinary human suffering rather than some special, unusually intractable mental health condition.
EDIT: Also, shit gets intense when you keep ratcheting up your concentration and introspection. Getting past the boredom and being able to sit still for an hour is just a first step.
What was your level of practice before going into the retreat? Did you go in 'cold'? What would you recommend for people who are considering it?
Pretty much cold, yeah. I'd meditated 10-20 minutes occasionally over a few years but never kept up a habit for more than a week. I didn't read very much on the subject either, although I did read Sam Harris's "waking up", which is what convinced me that a retreat was the best way to learn meditation.
I'd recommend trying to find a place with qualified teachers. I went to a Goenka retreat (i.e. dhamma.org) and there were some weird things about it: all the teaching was done through 30-year recordings of a guy who's been dead for 10 years. The facilitators actually present at the retreat were his "assistant teachers", and in my case they didn't seem to have a lot of expertise. They seemed to be following Goenka's script and were reluctant to deviate. I think everyone there really meant well and had no ulterior motives, but there were cult-y vibes nonetheless. If you can put up with that and are willing to work through difficulties largely on your own then maybe I'd recommend it. I had a great experience, in the end. The food and facilities were also quite nice.
Also, I had some intense experiences that I would have thought were only possible with psychedelic drugs. It really scared me at one point: I was sure I was losing my mind. I almost asked to be taken to a hospital and put on antipsychotics. I think there is a chance that if I had done that, things would have gone very badly for me.
The other people on the retreat with me apparently did not have experiences like this. But it's not unique to me. [1]
Just go into it with an appreciation that you're attempting something significant and powerful and probably (at least for now) a bit outside of rational understanding.
It was worthwhile for me. I had a hard time justifying taking 10 days away from everything, but ultimately I convinced myself that it would be exciting to spend 10 days doing something wildly different from what I've done basically every other day for the last couple of years. Variety of experience is a good thing, right? :)
[1] https://www.brown.edu/research/labs/britton/research/varieti...
I'd recommend trying to find a place with qualified teachers. I went to a Goenka retreat (i.e. dhamma.org) and there were some weird things about it: all the teaching was done through 30-year recordings of a guy who's been dead for 10 years. The facilitators actually present at the retreat were his "assistant teachers", and in my case they didn't seem to have a lot of expertise. They seemed to be following Goenka's script and were reluctant to deviate. I think everyone there really meant well and had no ulterior motives, but there were cult-y vibes nonetheless. If you can put up with that and are willing to work through difficulties largely on your own then maybe I'd recommend it. I had a great experience, in the end. The food and facilities were also quite nice.
Also, I had some intense experiences that I would have thought were only possible with psychedelic drugs. It really scared me at one point: I was sure I was losing my mind. I almost asked to be taken to a hospital and put on antipsychotics. I think there is a chance that if I had done that, things would have gone very badly for me.
The other people on the retreat with me apparently did not have experiences like this. But it's not unique to me. [1]
Just go into it with an appreciation that you're attempting something significant and powerful and probably (at least for now) a bit outside of rational understanding.
It was worthwhile for me. I had a hard time justifying taking 10 days away from everything, but ultimately I convinced myself that it would be exciting to spend 10 days doing something wildly different from what I've done basically every other day for the last couple of years. Variety of experience is a good thing, right? :)
[1] https://www.brown.edu/research/labs/britton/research/varieti...
I don't understand Goenka. It's an extremely intense experience to do unless you are very experienced. The total hands off approach of the "assistant teachers" is extremely dangerous. These retreats are more intense than most Zen retreats. Bizarre and dangerous
Thanks for the info! Definitely going to look more into this. Hopefully I can embark on something similar minus the noted downsides.
Siddhartha is a fantastic book, it changed how I look at pain, love, and everything in-between. I recommend even if you're like me and don't want to meditate to read Siddhartha, it helped me step out of my own headspace into a way of thinking that actively tries to step further and further out from myself.
Just wanted to add that Hermann Hesse is a wonderful writer, and that I thoroughly enjoyed his other works as well (except, for some reason, The Glass Bead Game).
Can you please provide a link to the book? I searched and there seem to be several of them with the same name.
Thanks!
Thanks!
It’s also available for free on Gutenberg:
https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/2500
https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/2500
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00UCI9ODE/ref=tmm_kin_swatch...
Really hope you enjoy it :)
Really hope you enjoy it :)
Siddhartha by Hermann Hesse
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siddhartha_(novel)
When I was 12-13 I used to have trouble falling asleep, since I'd be thinking of anything stressful from the day. I fixed it with a form of meditation - thinking about nothing was impossible, I forced myself to think of fantasies when I'm trying to go to sleep instead of anything real. It has worked well for me for 20 years.
I fall asleep by thinking of me on the perfect beach at sunset with my best friend. Works like a charm.
> My practice changed significantly as I began mentioning it to some friends.
“It is not good for people to be alone…”
“It is not good for people to be alone…”
My meditation is a very personal thing. I mention it to others but never in much detail. Being alone with myself is one of the aspects of meditation I value the most.
Solitude during practice is not the same as abandonment of a community. Monks don't live alone; even hermits have (admittedly small) communities.
You need the feedback loop.
You need the feedback loop.
Not true, in Tibetan Buddhism they have a strong tradition of solitary retreats in caves often for 9 years or more
They'll often still interact with or encounter others during these long retreats though. Or, in Kukkuripa's case, at least their dog. [1]
Some friends/teachers of mine will maybe do 2-4 weeks solitary each year, but sangha is still important.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kukkuripa
Some friends/teachers of mine will maybe do 2-4 weeks solitary each year, but sangha is still important.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kukkuripa
The majority of monsatics across the bulk of traditions live communally, and Tibetian Buddhists are no exception.
The majority of monastic ascetic traditions include a small number of hermits, and Tibetian buddhists are no exception.
Those hermits do, occasionally, see other people, and it is important.
The majority of monastic ascetic traditions include a small number of hermits, and Tibetian buddhists are no exception.
Those hermits do, occasionally, see other people, and it is important.
So for 10 years, the author read some books, occasionally did sitting meditation but only briefly and not getting anywhere, took no classes, got guidance from no teachers, did no retreats, etc, and ends the piece with a teaser for the next article/email.
I feel like if someone wrote that they wanted to understand computation, and over the course of 10 years they read Godel Escher Bach and some Smullyan puzzles, and occasionally pulled up a python interpreter to play with stuff for minutes at a time, and each time got bored and gave up, we wouldn't find it especially interesting that they hadn't reached any deep and satisfying understanding.
I'd like to be a better cook, and I read through Salt Fat Acid Heat and sometimes I try to make something more planned and effortful than I normally would, but over the past 10 years I have taken no cooking classes, made only sporadic efforts to learn more, and so I'm not surprised that my ability in the kitchen hasn't changed much.
What you get out of an endeavor is related to what you put in. But if you have difficulty sticking with it, maybe introduce stuff in your life that helps you maintain that effort? My meditation practice was most consistent when I was doing a class that met weekly. In addition to guidance and instruction, there was always some component of sharing or discussing experiences, asking questions, etc. Even if it's not a "sangha" per se, having a regular, structured, social interaction attached to your practice can really help. As can having a more knowledgeable teacher, rather than just a pile of books.
I feel like if someone wrote that they wanted to understand computation, and over the course of 10 years they read Godel Escher Bach and some Smullyan puzzles, and occasionally pulled up a python interpreter to play with stuff for minutes at a time, and each time got bored and gave up, we wouldn't find it especially interesting that they hadn't reached any deep and satisfying understanding.
I'd like to be a better cook, and I read through Salt Fat Acid Heat and sometimes I try to make something more planned and effortful than I normally would, but over the past 10 years I have taken no cooking classes, made only sporadic efforts to learn more, and so I'm not surprised that my ability in the kitchen hasn't changed much.
What you get out of an endeavor is related to what you put in. But if you have difficulty sticking with it, maybe introduce stuff in your life that helps you maintain that effort? My meditation practice was most consistent when I was doing a class that met weekly. In addition to guidance and instruction, there was always some component of sharing or discussing experiences, asking questions, etc. Even if it's not a "sangha" per se, having a regular, structured, social interaction attached to your practice can really help. As can having a more knowledgeable teacher, rather than just a pile of books.
Author here. Yes exactly! Intellectually that is 100% correct. In practice, as many others in the discussion have remarked, sustaining a meditation practice past the initial barriers is hard (as is learning programming, btw). Everyone brings their own baggage. Mine was that I thought I should be able to do it all on my own. :shrugs: Not surprisingly, I had the same experience with computer science before finding a teacher + community.
Thanks for your comment, not a fan of the snark but the content is great.
Thanks for your comment, not a fan of the snark but the content is great.
> not a fan of the snark but the content is great
In all seriousness, I think my snark was in reaction to my impression that the content was really lacking. It feels like the intent was more to bulk out content and cultivate an audience than actually help or usefully inform your readers. You described a very common problem at some length, and some things which _didn't_ resolve your search, and then without reaching a solution, you just tell us to come back next time for more content ... possibly but not necessarily including what actually helped you develop a practice.
I empathize with the unsatisfying search. But I question the value of describing _only_ the unsatisfying portion of the search as a means to promote your next article.
In all seriousness, I think my snark was in reaction to my impression that the content was really lacking. It feels like the intent was more to bulk out content and cultivate an audience than actually help or usefully inform your readers. You described a very common problem at some length, and some things which _didn't_ resolve your search, and then without reaching a solution, you just tell us to come back next time for more content ... possibly but not necessarily including what actually helped you develop a practice.
I empathize with the unsatisfying search. But I question the value of describing _only_ the unsatisfying portion of the search as a means to promote your next article.
I understand the cynicism about Substack thoughtbois. I send my emails to a very small group of people I’ve met in real life, and we chat and discuss many of these topics in person.
Question away! If I don’t stick the landing on the follow-up email (which I’m still working on - original email got too long hence the truncation), you can say that you were right ;)
Question away! If I don’t stick the landing on the follow-up email (which I’m still working on - original email got too long hence the truncation), you can say that you were right ;)
I have practiced Autogenic Training for years on and off; for the past two years I have been practicing it regularly. I have observed very positive effects on my life, particularly a growing sense of confidence and enjoyment in and for life. When physical and emotional tensions are let go, old memories come back vividly in my mind, new hopes emerge, and my life seems to be made up of fragments that, on the whole, seem to make sense. My tension headaches are gone, poof, vanished.
Autogenic training is an easy practice, much easier than traditional meditation practices, the teachings of which are, at least to my Western mind, impenetrable. I have read quite a few books on meditation, breathing, jhanas (sp?), listened to practitioners and teachers, and for the life of me I cannot make sense of 95 percent of it. In part, I think, my confusion occurs because those teachings don't make a lot of sense, there is an intellectual short-circuit that causes people to create concepts and practices that don't make sense because they have to "chase" or follow or build on other concepts and practices that don't make a lot of sense. A vicious circle of nonsense.
Something similar happens in martial arts. Movies and books showed the mystical and magical abilities of traditional martial arts practitioners: breathing, ki energy, horse postures, "watch how the eagle soars." I think, at least for Westerners, the pinnacle and climax was reached with Bruce Lee, who philosophized and kicked (but never on stage against other "experts") at the same time. And not with the brutal methods of Western boxing, but with a single finger. But, as we saw in mixed martial arts fights, empiricism-as usual and as expected-won out against magic, spirits and brutal training that made no sense; fighters who trained following empirical methods of training and fighting (develop the methods, test them, accept them if they work, abandon them if they don't) were throwing traditional martial arts practitioners out the proverbial window.
I would encourage many of those who have tried traditional meditation for years and faced all sorts of problems, from losing months to developing pathological conditions, to try Autogenic Training instead: easy, rewarding, accessible. And it works.
Autogenic training is an easy practice, much easier than traditional meditation practices, the teachings of which are, at least to my Western mind, impenetrable. I have read quite a few books on meditation, breathing, jhanas (sp?), listened to practitioners and teachers, and for the life of me I cannot make sense of 95 percent of it. In part, I think, my confusion occurs because those teachings don't make a lot of sense, there is an intellectual short-circuit that causes people to create concepts and practices that don't make sense because they have to "chase" or follow or build on other concepts and practices that don't make a lot of sense. A vicious circle of nonsense.
Something similar happens in martial arts. Movies and books showed the mystical and magical abilities of traditional martial arts practitioners: breathing, ki energy, horse postures, "watch how the eagle soars." I think, at least for Westerners, the pinnacle and climax was reached with Bruce Lee, who philosophized and kicked (but never on stage against other "experts") at the same time. And not with the brutal methods of Western boxing, but with a single finger. But, as we saw in mixed martial arts fights, empiricism-as usual and as expected-won out against magic, spirits and brutal training that made no sense; fighters who trained following empirical methods of training and fighting (develop the methods, test them, accept them if they work, abandon them if they don't) were throwing traditional martial arts practitioners out the proverbial window.
I would encourage many of those who have tried traditional meditation for years and faced all sorts of problems, from losing months to developing pathological conditions, to try Autogenic Training instead: easy, rewarding, accessible. And it works.
What is the recommended way to learn this?
There is little material in English, while much more is available in German, Italian, and Spanish.
In English, I recommend "Autogenic Training. A Mind-Body Approach to the Treatment of Fibromyalgia and Chronic Pain Syndrome," by Micah R. Sadigh, Roberto Patarca Montero (Part II and Part III).
In English, I recommend "Autogenic Training. A Mind-Body Approach to the Treatment of Fibromyalgia and Chronic Pain Syndrome," by Micah R. Sadigh, Roberto Patarca Montero (Part II and Part III).
I gave up after about 1,5 years which included a while year of almost daily body scans die about half an hour an even a full on Vipassana retreat. While my practice seemed to improve somewhat i simply didn't perceive any benefits within my psyche. It would not even calm me down. In the end it just didn't feel like it was worth the time investment.
These days i will pay attention to my breath at times when i cannot fall asleep. And that's about it.
These days i will pay attention to my breath at times when i cannot fall asleep. And that's about it.
Meditation does help me to become less reactive.
focus, observe thoughts but don't react to thoughts.
Goal is to eventually become observer than reacter. When done consistently, the subsconcious mind will learn it. You overall stop reacting in-general.
My biggest advice for anyone is to not ignore the traditional advice. Secular meditation practises based on Buddhist meditation take the practise out of its context in a quick and forceful way. Buddhism has had 2500 years to slowly develop and work out what works and what does not. It is quite dangerous to take it and call the parts that do not immediately appeal to the secular western mind, like devotion, worship, compassion, traditional forms & rituals, and cast them away. I personally know two people who went into severe psychosis and depression by trying to practise meditation in a secular context. Something about meditation attracts people that think they fully understand something before they’ve even tried it. This will get torn down by the practise, and if you do not have support in place, this quickly can result in extreme mental health problems. I always say that the effects of meditation can be like the head space of an lsd trip except you don’t come down. It’s hard to “unsee”, and a lot of this religious “backwards” Buddhist worldview and practise exists specifically to integrate these experiences
I don't know. This still feels heavy in the propaganda realm. Which... to be clear, propaganda works. Turns out, telling people directly how and what to feel is more effective than makes sense.
That is, looking at it as 2500 years of successfully developing what works is hiding a lot of the failure that has accompanied things in that same time span. Is akin to saying that the religions that avoid certain foods are on to something, because no way something like that would stick without a solid reason.
To that end, the folks you know that had a mental breakdown. Is there a counterfactual world where they did not have a breakdown by avoiding meditation? Or by picking it up with a new religion? My priors are low that that is the case, but I would be delighted to learn more.
That is, looking at it as 2500 years of successfully developing what works is hiding a lot of the failure that has accompanied things in that same time span. Is akin to saying that the religions that avoid certain foods are on to something, because no way something like that would stick without a solid reason.
To that end, the folks you know that had a mental breakdown. Is there a counterfactual world where they did not have a breakdown by avoiding meditation? Or by picking it up with a new religion? My priors are low that that is the case, but I would be delighted to learn more.
It’s very new to us, why would we assume we have a perfect system for understanding it? It isn’t a toy to play with. Far more scientific research is needed before it’s safe to do in a secular context.
Isn't this true of all frames? I feel that I could claim the same for science and religion as things, as well.
Note that I'm fine pushing for caution on folks wanting to take up any practice. This would go as well for folks that think a running practice will help them. Maybe. At best.
Note that I'm fine pushing for caution on folks wanting to take up any practice. This would go as well for folks that think a running practice will help them. Maybe. At best.
I think we should treat it like a psychedelic treatment
In what way?
It should be done only under a very experienced guide
What sort of accreditation process do you put forth for the guides? My gut is that the vast majority of the experienced guides out there are also terrible and unlikely to dramatically alter the outcomes. Unless we are in a scotsman debate about "true guides would prevent bad outcomes." :(
I've been noticing an increasing trend of people saying things like this, and I don't get it. Meditation has many forms and traditions, within and without Buddhism. Which ones are "safe" and which ones aren't? Is using Headspace twice a week enough to be dangerous, or is there some lower bound where meditation practice without Buddhist beliefs switches from harmless to dangerous? And are Hindu or Christian meditation practices dangerous, or just the secular stuff? What precisely is the nature of this danger?
> I personally know two people who went into severe psychosis and depression by trying to practise meditation in a secular context.
Sorry, but I simply can't believe this. I mean I believe you have two friends with mental health issues, but I don't believe that psychosis can be triggered in a normal person by practicing "secular meditation". That's an extreme claim that requires a lot of evidence.
> I personally know two people who went into severe psychosis and depression by trying to practise meditation in a secular context.
Sorry, but I simply can't believe this. I mean I believe you have two friends with mental health issues, but I don't believe that psychosis can be triggered in a normal person by practicing "secular meditation". That's an extreme claim that requires a lot of evidence.
> And are Hindu or Christian meditation practices dangerous, or just the secular stuff? What precisely is the nature of this danger?
I don't think the argument is usually "meditation without Buddhism is dangerous" but rather "meditation techniques taken from their context can be dangerous". Regular mindfulness or insight meditation can cause shifts in mental state that a person isn't used to and they may not have the tools required to deal with it in a healthy manner.
It's like the mental equivalent of a normal person suddenly starting the same workout routine as an professional athlete, or even just an experienced weightlifter. They might be able to do the exercises, but they don't have the context provided by having a coach/being in the sport/etc to provide them with tools like "how to fall properly" or "knowing a torn muscle versus a normal sprain". That doesn't mean that doing the exercises in general are bad or that you need to do sport foo in order to exercise.
I don't think the argument is usually "meditation without Buddhism is dangerous" but rather "meditation techniques taken from their context can be dangerous". Regular mindfulness or insight meditation can cause shifts in mental state that a person isn't used to and they may not have the tools required to deal with it in a healthy manner.
It's like the mental equivalent of a normal person suddenly starting the same workout routine as an professional athlete, or even just an experienced weightlifter. They might be able to do the exercises, but they don't have the context provided by having a coach/being in the sport/etc to provide them with tools like "how to fall properly" or "knowing a torn muscle versus a normal sprain". That doesn't mean that doing the exercises in general are bad or that you need to do sport foo in order to exercise.
>That's an extreme claim that requires a lot of evidence.
For what it's worth, I Don't think it's an extreme claim at all.
The potential for ill-effects from more extreme efforts in Meditation is starting to be documented by western scientists. A lot of adverse outcomes aren't only possible, but actually quite common.
I personally had ZERO prior mental health issues, but after 3-4 months of meditating 30-90 minutes everyday in addition to fairly intense mindfulness practice throughout the day, I started to experience a lot of issues: strange emotional outbursts disconnected from any memory or thought, anger management issues, tension headaches, depression, etc.
These ultimately only resolved by stopping meditation entirely for a long time and only carefully reintroducing it in smaller less frequent doses.
It's really not all sunshine and rainbows.
For what it's worth, I Don't think it's an extreme claim at all.
The potential for ill-effects from more extreme efforts in Meditation is starting to be documented by western scientists. A lot of adverse outcomes aren't only possible, but actually quite common.
I personally had ZERO prior mental health issues, but after 3-4 months of meditating 30-90 minutes everyday in addition to fairly intense mindfulness practice throughout the day, I started to experience a lot of issues: strange emotional outbursts disconnected from any memory or thought, anger management issues, tension headaches, depression, etc.
These ultimately only resolved by stopping meditation entirely for a long time and only carefully reintroducing it in smaller less frequent doses.
It's really not all sunshine and rainbows.
I think this stuff is actually pretty typical for folks who progress to a certain stage. I experienced it as well, if that makes you feel any better.
The Buddhists definitely know about this, but a lot of their writing is pretty impenetrable and interlaced with weird metaphysics. Here's some modern, secular words on the subject (from the admittedly controversial author Daniel Ingram):
https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iv-insight...
Here's a more traditional buddhist description of the same thing:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/mahasi/progress....
I think a very small fraction of people actually meditate enough to get to that point. Meditating 90 minutes a day (plus the constant mindfulness practice) is pretty extreme by most people's standards (at least in US secular culture).
The Buddhists definitely know about this, but a lot of their writing is pretty impenetrable and interlaced with weird metaphysics. Here's some modern, secular words on the subject (from the admittedly controversial author Daniel Ingram):
https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iv-insight...
Here's a more traditional buddhist description of the same thing:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/mahasi/progress....
I think a very small fraction of people actually meditate enough to get to that point. Meditating 90 minutes a day (plus the constant mindfulness practice) is pretty extreme by most people's standards (at least in US secular culture).
Yeah, it came as a real shock to me at first. I had made many mistakes in my early meditation career. But I learned a lot more and suddenly started progressing. This was wonderful at first. I started to feel and experience some pretty mind-blowing things on the cushion at first and then extending well off the cushion into the rest of my life. Then... I remember random memories started to kind of pop into my awareness. I started to see a bright light shining through my eyes/head while I was on the cushion. This was accompanied by these almost divine feelings of bliss and content, which sometimes extended for hours after my sit. This was very cool at first. Then... this weird head pressure and uncomfortable feeling between my eyes started showing up. My single pointed focus was impossible to maintain because the intense feeling of pressure between my eyes or on the crown of my head would grow more and more distracting as I tried to regain the single pointed focus I had been enjoying. Then... shortly after that, the pressure turned into full tension headaches that lasted all day on bad days. Then... I was working in my office at home one day and my vision suddenly became blurry. Then, I started to feel nauseous. I went to throw up, I could feel the usual feelings of vomiting coming up from my abdomen, then up my throat, then... when it reached my mouth/face, instead of vomit this wave of intense sadness reached my face and it contorted into an expression of anguish. For the next like 30 minutes, wave after wave of this sadness, in every nuanced flavor I'd ever experienced started coming up, taking over my face, then passing. Then the rage. So much anger and rage and betrayel and hurt came and did the same thing. Wave after wave. I had NO idea WTF was happening to me, but I'd always been an absolute pinnacle of mental stability so this was very unusual. I didn't know what else to do but to let it pass.
After that, for months, the head pressure / headaches would reappear and then they'd be relieved by me crying. Feeling the intense feelings and going away.
But... I really wasn't expecting any of that. I just wanted to be able to focus better and think more clearly. I didn't sign up for THIS. So I just let it go and fade. I didn't really want to accidentally screw my brain up. So, unfortunately, I haven't started a daily practice again since. It all did feel pretty cathartic though.
I've dabbled here and there with meditating again. When I do it with any real regularity though, the head pressure tends to come back.
After that, for months, the head pressure / headaches would reappear and then they'd be relieved by me crying. Feeling the intense feelings and going away.
But... I really wasn't expecting any of that. I just wanted to be able to focus better and think more clearly. I didn't sign up for THIS. So I just let it go and fade. I didn't really want to accidentally screw my brain up. So, unfortunately, I haven't started a daily practice again since. It all did feel pretty cathartic though.
I've dabbled here and there with meditating again. When I do it with any real regularity though, the head pressure tends to come back.
Those are the kind of things that make me stay away from deeper forms of meditation and mindfulness.
Also, I'm not very fond of taking the traditional advice so literally. These sources focus solely on training new Buddhist monks, and most people doing secular practice just want some peace of mind while they continue their, productivity focused, western lifestyle.
We need to take these sources with a grain of salt and reorient our practice so that it cultivates more peace of mind without making us implode when the cultivated buddhist mindset creates a conflict with our western lifestyle
Also, I'm not very fond of taking the traditional advice so literally. These sources focus solely on training new Buddhist monks, and most people doing secular practice just want some peace of mind while they continue their, productivity focused, western lifestyle.
We need to take these sources with a grain of salt and reorient our practice so that it cultivates more peace of mind without making us implode when the cultivated buddhist mindset creates a conflict with our western lifestyle
There aren’t Buddhist meditation practises that have no risk of causing this. Any meditation practise that involves mindfulness and concentration done for more than 15 or 20 mins a day carries this risk
I agree that the goals of Buddhism contradict the goals we have in western society though. That said, Steve Jobs was a devout Zen Buddhist, so he sat many thousands of hours of zazen
I do find it funny though when companies train their employees in mindfulness. It’s almost like they want workers who have less emotional connection with their work. As I said elsewhere, it’s all a matter of whether you follow the instructions. If you do, it will have adverse effects.
I agree that the goals of Buddhism contradict the goals we have in western society though. That said, Steve Jobs was a devout Zen Buddhist, so he sat many thousands of hours of zazen
I do find it funny though when companies train their employees in mindfulness. It’s almost like they want workers who have less emotional connection with their work. As I said elsewhere, it’s all a matter of whether you follow the instructions. If you do, it will have adverse effects.
> Any meditation practise that involves mindfulness and concentration done for more than 15 or 20 mins a day carries this risk.
Looks like mindfulness to 15 or 20 minutes a day is a sensible choice then.
> Steve Jobs was a devout Zen Buddhist, so he sat many thousands of hours of zazen
Steve Jobs was a powerful and a very influential man. He didn't have a boss urging him to be productive 24/7 like a field employee has. Investors expected his company to deliver working products. And it delivered all of that.
> I do find it funny though when companies train their employees in mindfulness. It’s almost like they want workers who have less emotional connection with their work. As I said elsewhere, it’s all a matter of whether you follow the instructions. If you do, it will have adverse effects.
IMHO they want their employees to become stoic productivity machines that make no demands and cope with whatever shitty working condition they set up.
Looks like mindfulness to 15 or 20 minutes a day is a sensible choice then.
> Steve Jobs was a devout Zen Buddhist, so he sat many thousands of hours of zazen
Steve Jobs was a powerful and a very influential man. He didn't have a boss urging him to be productive 24/7 like a field employee has. Investors expected his company to deliver working products. And it delivered all of that.
> I do find it funny though when companies train their employees in mindfulness. It’s almost like they want workers who have less emotional connection with their work. As I said elsewhere, it’s all a matter of whether you follow the instructions. If you do, it will have adverse effects.
IMHO they want their employees to become stoic productivity machines that make no demands and cope with whatever shitty working condition they set up.
Yep, I've heard of multiple people with these exact symptoms. It's a very familiar story
Yes, I'm very secular. But the fact that these things happen with such regularity and there is remarkable consistency and precision in them really lends itself toward the religious interpretations. Also, the skeptic in me says it's unreliable, but those glimpses of actual visual light (flickering at first, then steady) coupled with feelings of (for lack of a better word) divinity, are still hard for me to reconcile with a purely secular interpretation.
One big takeaway I had was realizing that outside the west, these types of things are well known. Here though, it seems almost no one who purports to be a "teacher" knows much about them or what to do with them.
One big takeaway I had was realizing that outside the west, these types of things are well known. Here though, it seems almost no one who purports to be a "teacher" knows much about them or what to do with them.
Wow, thanks for sharing. I have no advice to offer but maybe an experienced teacher could help.
I've experienced intense emotional swings like you describe but not the pain or pressure. The emotional swings at least were something I was able to get through, eventually. They were strong for a while but stopped with continued practice. I'm definitely still more sensitive than I was before. I feel both positive and negative feelings more intensely, but hold onto them less.
I've experienced intense emotional swings like you describe but not the pain or pressure. The emotional swings at least were something I was able to get through, eventually. They were strong for a while but stopped with continued practice. I'm definitely still more sensitive than I was before. I feel both positive and negative feelings more intensely, but hold onto them less.
> The Buddhists definitely know about this, but a lot of their writing is pretty impenetrable and interlaced with weird metaphysics. Here's some modern, secular words on the subject:
This and linking MCTB (of all things) are the exact dangerous taking out of context I’m warning against. Daniel Ingram is a terrible resource, he should not be recommended
This and linking MCTB (of all things) are the exact dangerous taking out of context I’m warning against. Daniel Ingram is a terrible resource, he should not be recommended
You seem pretty experienced in this stuff. I agree with a lot of what you're saying in this thread: meditation can be dangerous and should be taken more seriously. Treating it as on par with a psychedelic therapy sounds about right.
Here's where I think we differ: a lot of people in secular western culture are intensely put off by all the religious stuff that comes with Buddhism. The metaphysics and reincarnation stuff is, in my view, a reflection of the culture that Siddhartha Gautama grew up in and taught in, rather than a necessary part of eliminating suffering. I think that retelling these lessons in a way that's accessible to modern audiences is important. Some people simply will not accept something taught in the form of ancient mysticism. Should those people be denied insight just because they didn't grow up in India during the Iron Age?
I get that Ingram is polarizing. I'll add a link to Mahasi Sayadaw as well, but I just don't think he explains things in a way that's as clear to someone with my cultural background.
Here's where I think we differ: a lot of people in secular western culture are intensely put off by all the religious stuff that comes with Buddhism. The metaphysics and reincarnation stuff is, in my view, a reflection of the culture that Siddhartha Gautama grew up in and taught in, rather than a necessary part of eliminating suffering. I think that retelling these lessons in a way that's accessible to modern audiences is important. Some people simply will not accept something taught in the form of ancient mysticism. Should those people be denied insight just because they didn't grow up in India during the Iron Age?
I get that Ingram is polarizing. I'll add a link to Mahasi Sayadaw as well, but I just don't think he explains things in a way that's as clear to someone with my cultural background.
The Buddha never taught that those aspects are optional and every tradition has preserved them from India to China to Japan, until now! Why are we special that we can forgo all of the religious trappings? We aren’t
Of course the teachings must be made to appeal to westerners. This does not mean totally gutting them
People who won’t accept anything spiritual or religious don’t need this practise. In Buddhism we don’t try to convert, for some people it is simply not their time
Of course the teachings must be made to appeal to westerners. This does not mean totally gutting them
People who won’t accept anything spiritual or religious don’t need this practise. In Buddhism we don’t try to convert, for some people it is simply not their time
I think there is a difference between accepting spiritual and religious practices.
The illusion of self can be observed directly. Perhaps it's even an inevitable conclusion of sufficiently intense introspection. I'd consider observing this to be a spiritual practice.
The metaphysics of realms of reincarnation, hungry ghosts, etc. is religious thought (and it was the dominant worldview when Siddhartha was born). These are not ideas that I can discover independently through introspection; if I believe them it's because someone told me to.
We might be talking past each other, though: if you're saying that the benefits of meditation are inherently inextricable from a Vedic worldview, I don't agree. But if you are just saying we haven't yet figured out which parts of the religion are actually necessary, then I agree. I personally learned meditation in a fairly Buddhist context, and naturally there are parts that resonate with me and parts that don't.
The illusion of self can be observed directly. Perhaps it's even an inevitable conclusion of sufficiently intense introspection. I'd consider observing this to be a spiritual practice.
The metaphysics of realms of reincarnation, hungry ghosts, etc. is religious thought (and it was the dominant worldview when Siddhartha was born). These are not ideas that I can discover independently through introspection; if I believe them it's because someone told me to.
We might be talking past each other, though: if you're saying that the benefits of meditation are inherently inextricable from a Vedic worldview, I don't agree. But if you are just saying we haven't yet figured out which parts of the religion are actually necessary, then I agree. I personally learned meditation in a fairly Buddhist context, and naturally there are parts that resonate with me and parts that don't.
> The metaphysics of realms of reincarnation, hungry ghosts, etc. is religious thought (and it was the dominant worldview when Siddhartha was born)
Actually, he mostly invented them, they aren’t present in Vedic texts afaik. Also, he did perceive it independently: his insight became so great that he could see his past lives, and he taught that we can too if we follow the 8fp
Actually, he mostly invented them, they aren’t present in Vedic texts afaik. Also, he did perceive it independently: his insight became so great that he could see his past lives, and he taught that we can too if we follow the 8fp
I would be interested in hearing more about why Ingram is considered a terrible resource, if you care to share.
One reason is that he broke a major taboo in publicly declaring himself an Arhat
Then he has this book that is supposed to distil all of the powerful insight practises into a secular path, but everyone I’ve spoken to in his pragmatic dharma community is extremely toxic. It’s literally like the 4chan of Buddhism, huge amounts of racism, lots of depressed teens, very online, lots of people who think they are enlightened (one of which suddenly “rated my capacity for awakening” as zero, and when I said I didn’t care flew into a rage)
It’s exactly what you expect to happen when you take Buddhism, try and condense it down into a path for having the strongest and most intense experience, and market it to terminally online young adult men
Ingram was also heavily involved in this “fire kasina” stuff where you just stare at a flame for days until you start seeing things and go kind of crazy, which is a controversial practise in Buddhism
Finally he’s just not a qualified Buddhist teacher
Then he has this book that is supposed to distil all of the powerful insight practises into a secular path, but everyone I’ve spoken to in his pragmatic dharma community is extremely toxic. It’s literally like the 4chan of Buddhism, huge amounts of racism, lots of depressed teens, very online, lots of people who think they are enlightened (one of which suddenly “rated my capacity for awakening” as zero, and when I said I didn’t care flew into a rage)
It’s exactly what you expect to happen when you take Buddhism, try and condense it down into a path for having the strongest and most intense experience, and market it to terminally online young adult men
Ingram was also heavily involved in this “fire kasina” stuff where you just stare at a flame for days until you start seeing things and go kind of crazy, which is a controversial practise in Buddhism
Finally he’s just not a qualified Buddhist teacher
I agree that a lot of people in that community (and online in general) seem to be chasing after some kind of peak experiences and there's a lot of weird spiritual dick-measuring.
For what it's worth, Ingram himself recommends Kornfield's "A Path with Heart" as one of his favorite books, which is largely about how the goal is to be a better person and that's not the same thing as developing incredible concentration abilities and having intense experiences.
For what it's worth, Ingram himself recommends Kornfield's "A Path with Heart" as one of his favorite books, which is largely about how the goal is to be a better person and that's not the same thing as developing incredible concentration abilities and having intense experiences.
Ingrams path produces such people because his path is broken. Look at the results. He had a novel idea for how to “optimise Buddhism” and it had bad results
I don’t really think it matters what Ingrams favourite books are if his methodology has been so destructive
I don’t really think it matters what Ingrams favourite books are if his methodology has been so destructive
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I also had some of those side effects. I also had a trippy period, where I struggled to see anything as real. It was about a 2 week long solipsistic nightmare. I do think this is all “part of the path”, but without the traditional context, you will be quite lost on what to do next. Even with it, it’s very difficult
I would say that meditating for more than 15 minutes a day is very dangerous
I’m sorry that you don’t believe (edit typo) me, nothing I can do about that
I’m sorry that you don’t believe (edit typo) me, nothing I can do about that
I would say it’s an increasing trend because people who are more invested in the traditions have “had enough” of so called “mcmindfulness” or dangerous approaches
If what you say is true, then it should be trivially easy to find an app that promotes these dangerous practices, find their daily active users, then check the reviews and find a high percentage (>10%) of negative reviews saying something like, "1/5, cannot recommend, after using this app every day for three months, I'm now experiencing horrible mental health issues".
There are plenty of apps out there with millions of daily active users. What percentage of those users do you expect to suffer negative mental health side effects? Where is the evidence that they exist at all?
There are plenty of apps out there with millions of daily active users. What percentage of those users do you expect to suffer negative mental health side effects? Where is the evidence that they exist at all?
I don’t have access to that data. Do you?
I would guess that about 5 to 10% of people who seriously try the practise for an extended period experience very scary and potentially trauma inducing effects
I would guess that about 5 to 10% of people who seriously try the practise for an extended period experience very scary and potentially trauma inducing effects
I can use Google, and found this [1] article claiming over 4 million DAUs for Calm in June of 2020, with trendlines going up and to the right.
So the lower bound of your estimate gives us ~200,000 people who would be adversely affected. Looking through negative reviews, it's all complaints about pricing and paywalls. The same is true for Headspace, the second biggest app in this space (I don't have DAUs for them, but it's got about half as many downloads and reviews, so let's assume less than half as big).
I can't find a single complaint about adverse mental health effects, which doesn't mean it never happens, but it's not anywhere close to 5%.
[1] https://blog.apptopia.com/calm-app-outperforms-headspace-dur...
So the lower bound of your estimate gives us ~200,000 people who would be adversely affected. Looking through negative reviews, it's all complaints about pricing and paywalls. The same is true for Headspace, the second biggest app in this space (I don't have DAUs for them, but it's got about half as many downloads and reviews, so let's assume less than half as big).
I can't find a single complaint about adverse mental health effects, which doesn't mean it never happens, but it's not anywhere close to 5%.
[1] https://blog.apptopia.com/calm-app-outperforms-headspace-dur...
Interesting conclusion. I don’t agree, but I’ll leave you to it. I don’t even think that it’s possible to have the kind of experiences I’m talking about with headspace, unless it promotes a daily mindfulness practise of more than 15 to 20 mins a day
You're assuming the people having issues realize Calm is the source. Also a DAU is not always someone meditating.
Sure, it's a coarse and crude method that isn't perfect, but the point is that almost no one that practices "secular meditation" has any problems whatsoever - there is simply no good evidence supporting that meditation practice is dangerous in any way. The vast body of research available shows mild benefits.
The claimed hypothesis is absurd on its face. It's a wild and strong claim that needs strong evidence, so we don't need to be super precise here, if the effects were nearly as strong as 5-10%, we would see it.
The claimed hypothesis is absurd on its face. It's a wild and strong claim that needs strong evidence, so we don't need to be super precise here, if the effects were nearly as strong as 5-10%, we would see it.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32820538/
We don't have to engage in crude methodology. We have tons of research.
We don't have to engage in crude methodology. We have tons of research.
There's even more tons of research showing positive effects from meditation.
Meditation research generally is low quality, as is suffers from lack of defined methodology, lack of a consensus definition of what meditation is, and the general subjective experience of meditation. (Concretely, if you want to do brain scans on someone meditating, how do you know they're actually meditating? This extends to scans on people who are "experienced practitioners", how do you know they are experienced practitioners?)
Regardless, the vast body of research does not point to negative effects, most point to mild positive effects, and the medical field considers it perfectly safe for healthy people. If you want to use research, don't pick and choose the studies that find adverse effects, look at the overall body of research.
Meditation research generally is low quality, as is suffers from lack of defined methodology, lack of a consensus definition of what meditation is, and the general subjective experience of meditation. (Concretely, if you want to do brain scans on someone meditating, how do you know they're actually meditating? This extends to scans on people who are "experienced practitioners", how do you know they are experienced practitioners?)
Regardless, the vast body of research does not point to negative effects, most point to mild positive effects, and the medical field considers it perfectly safe for healthy people. If you want to use research, don't pick and choose the studies that find adverse effects, look at the overall body of research.
Is there good evidence suggesting it’s 100% completely safe?
There isn't good evidence suggesting anything is "100% completely safe", but yes, the vast majority of meditation research shows mild positive benefits for practitioners, and the medical consensus is that meditation is perfectly safe for healthy individuals.
It feels a lot like the goalposts are being moved here, the original claim was that meditation is extremely dangerous unless you're doing Buddhism right, now we're asking if there's evidence that it's completely safe.
It feels a lot like the goalposts are being moved here, the original claim was that meditation is extremely dangerous unless you're doing Buddhism right, now we're asking if there's evidence that it's completely safe.
No, the original claim is that meditation _can_ be dangerous unless you are doing Buddhism right. You are claiming that if meditation had dangers, it would be trivially easy to find data about it, and thus it doesn't. We aren't claiming it's always dangerous, we are claiming that it can be if traditional advice is ignored. You are the one shifting the goalposts. Re-read the thread and reflect
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I can't reply to your other comment, so I'll do it here, and this will likely be my last comment in this thread, because I don't think you're being a very good discussion partner.
I explicitly noted that there are probably rare cases where meditation leads to negative experiences (and I am not distinguishing between traditional methods and so-called secular methods, the risk should be the same for both, according to my model). But that is my point: these will be rare, and not extreme, except in people with pre-existing mental health issues. Normal, healthy people simply do not develop psychosis from meditation practice. Furthermore, there is no body of research or evidence known to me that shows that the (small in both effect size and frequency) risks are changed by the meditation practice or tradition. The research that we have shows small effects for meditation in any direction, but is overall positive regardless of tradition. My proposed experiment was an attempt at distinguishing between secular methods and traditional Buddhist methods, in an attempt to find any evidence of the massive effect size you claimed (5-10%!). This is the crux if the disagreement, not "can meditation EVER be dangerous in ANY circumstances", but "Under what circumstances, and how dangerous". I say, "Only in rare cases where there are underlying mental health issues regardless of tradition". You say, "Commonly (5-10%), for people who don't do Buddhism, and almost(?) never for those following Buddhist teachings". (I'm not actually sure if you think Buddhism removes all risk or is just much less risky, but either way I disagree.)
You made an outrageous claim that you've still provided no evidence for, and you've constructed a straw man of my argument to knock down. You're not arguing in good faith.
I'd be happy to reset if you want to discuss the relative difference in risks between Buddhist and secular methods (evidence on other meditation traditions would also be welcome), but I'm not going to argue with you about the words I've written and their plain meaning.
I explicitly noted that there are probably rare cases where meditation leads to negative experiences (and I am not distinguishing between traditional methods and so-called secular methods, the risk should be the same for both, according to my model). But that is my point: these will be rare, and not extreme, except in people with pre-existing mental health issues. Normal, healthy people simply do not develop psychosis from meditation practice. Furthermore, there is no body of research or evidence known to me that shows that the (small in both effect size and frequency) risks are changed by the meditation practice or tradition. The research that we have shows small effects for meditation in any direction, but is overall positive regardless of tradition. My proposed experiment was an attempt at distinguishing between secular methods and traditional Buddhist methods, in an attempt to find any evidence of the massive effect size you claimed (5-10%!). This is the crux if the disagreement, not "can meditation EVER be dangerous in ANY circumstances", but "Under what circumstances, and how dangerous". I say, "Only in rare cases where there are underlying mental health issues regardless of tradition". You say, "Commonly (5-10%), for people who don't do Buddhism, and almost(?) never for those following Buddhist teachings". (I'm not actually sure if you think Buddhism removes all risk or is just much less risky, but either way I disagree.)
You made an outrageous claim that you've still provided no evidence for, and you've constructed a straw man of my argument to knock down. You're not arguing in good faith.
I'd be happy to reset if you want to discuss the relative difference in risks between Buddhist and secular methods (evidence on other meditation traditions would also be welcome), but I'm not going to argue with you about the words I've written and their plain meaning.
I'm going to call bs on your claim that you "personally know two people who went into severe psychosis and depression".
Since we're in "my personal experience"-land, I've been meditating and have been around people who meditate daily for 26 years. Never seen or heard about anything close to what you describe.
Since we're in "my personal experience"-land, I've been meditating and have been around people who meditate daily for 26 years. Never seen or heard about anything close to what you describe.
I believe it, I personally experienced something like a psychotic episode while on a meditation retreat. Also a panic attack, a few hours before that. No prior history of panic attacks or psychosis.
I actually think that some of the benefits of meditation are adjacent to psychosis, in a way: as you get closer to the "insight" that is the intended result of Buddhist meditation, you are also flirting with losing your grip on reality.
In my case, it went fine. I resolved the experience and integrated it. But I could see how it might go the other way for some.
Professor Britton at Brown has made a career of studying these kinds of experiences, plenty of examples here:
https://www.brown.edu/research/labs/britton/research/varieti...
I actually think that some of the benefits of meditation are adjacent to psychosis, in a way: as you get closer to the "insight" that is the intended result of Buddhist meditation, you are also flirting with losing your grip on reality.
In my case, it went fine. I resolved the experience and integrated it. But I could see how it might go the other way for some.
Professor Britton at Brown has made a career of studying these kinds of experiences, plenty of examples here:
https://www.brown.edu/research/labs/britton/research/varieti...
Yes really the whole point of it is to let go of your grip on reality
Yeah, I'm not sure what the difference is between the people who come away from the experienced more "enlightened" vs just more insane.
It kind of feels like an all-or-nothing thing: once you start to "see through the illusion of self", you have to follow that through to its logical conclusion or you'll be stuck living with intense cognitive dissonance.
I don't generally like to talk about this stuff too much because it sounds absolutely nuts to people who haven't experienced it.
It kind of feels like an all-or-nothing thing: once you start to "see through the illusion of self", you have to follow that through to its logical conclusion or you'll be stuck living with intense cognitive dissonance.
I don't generally like to talk about this stuff too much because it sounds absolutely nuts to people who haven't experienced it.
The difference is that insane people don’t focus on compassion towards all beings
Out of a study of about a thousand people who were asked to start a daily meditation process (with weekly check-ins), about 20% reported at least one negative episode.
Now, that included everything from "feeling sad" to full blown panic attack.
I'll see if I can dig up that particular study. Here is a similar one which tracked longterm meditators:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1428622/
> However, of the twenty-seven subjects, seventeen (62.9%) reported at least one adverse effect, and two (7.4%) suffered profound adverse effects.
Now, that included everything from "feeling sad" to full blown panic attack.
I'll see if I can dig up that particular study. Here is a similar one which tracked longterm meditators:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1428622/
> However, of the twenty-seven subjects, seventeen (62.9%) reported at least one adverse effect, and two (7.4%) suffered profound adverse effects.
27 subjects is a pretty low number of people to base this one. In any scientific paper, doesn't Hacker News get super uppity about the small number? I seem to think this one should be treated the same way.
There are quite a few studies here though.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5584749/ (online survey, 84 respondants)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32820538/ (meta analysis, 6703 total participants across 55 studies)
My reading of this is we can't make claims like X% practicioners have negative outcomes - the numbers are too messy. We can definitely say a significant amount of practictioners do have negative outcomes.
But, those negative outcomes are wide and while they include suicide, depression and panic attacks, the majority of them are things like anxiety.
You are digging into and tinkering with your psyche. Of course there are going to be negative outcomes. I would be more skeptical if the claim was meditation did something and never had negative effects.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5584749/ (online survey, 84 respondants)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32820538/ (meta analysis, 6703 total participants across 55 studies)
My reading of this is we can't make claims like X% practicioners have negative outcomes - the numbers are too messy. We can definitely say a significant amount of practictioners do have negative outcomes.
But, those negative outcomes are wide and while they include suicide, depression and panic attacks, the majority of them are things like anxiety.
You are digging into and tinkering with your psyche. Of course there are going to be negative outcomes. I would be more skeptical if the claim was meditation did something and never had negative effects.
I push back against the "of course there are going to be negative outcomes." The evidence at hand is strictly that there are depressed people and that panic attacks and suicidal tendencies exist. Unless the studies show a significant uptick in how many people feel these after starting meditation, this feels akin to the logic people use to show that vaccines cause autism.
All of these adverse effects happened during or immediately following meditation. That metastudy gives a base rate of 8% - that is waaay above background noise.
Ibuprofen is a great drug and I recommend it. It also kills people, is toxic, and can have severe side effects especially when misused.
If something is powerful and has an effect.. it will have side effects and negative outcomes.
Even as a secularist, I think we lost some of safety practices that were encoded in religious meditative practices.
Ibuprofen is a great drug and I recommend it. It also kills people, is toxic, and can have severe side effects especially when misused.
If something is powerful and has an effect.. it will have side effects and negative outcomes.
Even as a secularist, I think we lost some of safety practices that were encoded in religious meditative practices.
8% is indeed quite high. My gut would be more that this is the selection bias, though. Folks that are looking for things such as meditation to help with mental health, are more likely to have trouble with mental health. Such that I am still suspicious of this data.
I should say that I'm fine with the idea of pushing for caution. I just have major suspicions when a practice is pushed with a mentality that you need expert guidance to get layman benefits.
I should also state that my personal stance is that the majority of meditation, if it is working, is not working for the reasons that the practitioners think it is working.
I should say that I'm fine with the idea of pushing for caution. I just have major suspicions when a practice is pushed with a mentality that you need expert guidance to get layman benefits.
I should also state that my personal stance is that the majority of meditation, if it is working, is not working for the reasons that the practitioners think it is working.
I don't think the harm data means you need to go pay a yogi $400 for lessons.
I think we need to stop telling people meditation is a perfect little peaceful practice and instead treat it like ibuprofen.
If you are meditating and you start feeling anxious or in a bad way.. stop. Stop meditating and go do something else. Maybe talk with a therapist.
If you start feeling depersonalization.. stop meditating.
You should inform your medical practicioners that you meditate, the same way you tell them if you take ibuprofen on the regular. They probably don't care, but it's good to know.
You probably should ask yourself "is the benefit from meditation exceeding the side effects?" If no.. then stop doing it.
Taking more ibuprofen is not always the right course. The goal of meditating should not be to meditate more.
I think we need to stop telling people meditation is a perfect little peaceful practice and instead treat it like ibuprofen.
If you are meditating and you start feeling anxious or in a bad way.. stop. Stop meditating and go do something else. Maybe talk with a therapist.
If you start feeling depersonalization.. stop meditating.
You should inform your medical practicioners that you meditate, the same way you tell them if you take ibuprofen on the regular. They probably don't care, but it's good to know.
You probably should ask yourself "is the benefit from meditation exceeding the side effects?" If no.. then stop doing it.
Taking more ibuprofen is not always the right course. The goal of meditating should not be to meditate more.
Amusingly, I am probably harsher on meditation than you seem to be. My stance is more that if you are otherwise healthy and making good choices, go for it. If you are wanting to use it as a treatment for problems/discontents in your life, expect that it won't help, and focusing on your problems is likely to lead to other problems.
Comparing it to ibuprofen strikes me as begging the question that it has a mechanism. Something I am not quite ready to cede.
Comparing it to ibuprofen strikes me as begging the question that it has a mechanism. Something I am not quite ready to cede.
I’m confused. Are you claiming that meditation might literally have no effect?
Not literally zero effect. But I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of the effect is the same as how propaganda works.
I take it as similar to inversion tables. Could it help some folks with their back pain? Absolutely. Does it do so for the reasons they put forward? Highly unlikely. (Acupuncture is similar. Homeopathy? Maybe...)
I take it as similar to inversion tables. Could it help some folks with their back pain? Absolutely. Does it do so for the reasons they put forward? Highly unlikely. (Acupuncture is similar. Homeopathy? Maybe...)
I think we should generally be risk averse when the stakes are high. Telling someone to meditate is like telling them to trip, but without them even realising it is a trip, building up over time. It is quite dangerous. I mentioned those two people who had issues but I have others, maybe four or five, who are unsure if they would have embarked on this experience if they knew
This was specifically a group who practise based on Daniel Ingrams book MTCB, which is largely imo based on generating intense insight experiences as quickly as possible. Perhaps you did not have experience with such people
On the other hand, be careful - meditation in the context of Buddhism is a marketing funnel backed by 2500 years of experience. It systematically breaks down your value system and replaces it with one that puts Buddhist practice at the core. So if you’re not looking for a religious awakening don’t take any of their advice too seriously.
Yes, it will break down your values. Unfortunately if you have the taste of bodhicitta: the mind that wants to awaken and liberate yourself and others from suffering, then you will mostly be forced to do it. I don’t recommend meditation or Buddhism for all, it will change your life in many ways that you will consider bad from your current point of view. Less motivation for tackling stressful tasks, less romantic attachment, less hunger for new experiences, often an increased neurosis, etc.
EDIT: I find it quite horrifying that doctors prescribe it now. If you follow the doctors advice, mindfulness meditation every day, properly, then the doctor does not understand where that will take you. It is not a known thing for them. It only is “safe” because most people don’t actually bother doing it regularly or put effort in
EDIT: I find it quite horrifying that doctors prescribe it now. If you follow the doctors advice, mindfulness meditation every day, properly, then the doctor does not understand where that will take you. It is not a known thing for them. It only is “safe” because most people don’t actually bother doing it regularly or put effort in
> Less motivation for tackling stressful tasks, less romantic attachment, less hunger for new experiences, often an increased neurosis, etc.
Bold statement that piqued my interest. Do you have backing sources or pointers to this topic?
Bold statement that piqued my interest. Do you have backing sources or pointers to this topic?
Hmm not really, just the general side effects that cause people to go deeper into the practise. I saw a study that said that meditation can increase selfishness or neurosis, but other than that I only have anecdotal evidence. The whole thing is about realising your attachments are fake, and that so is your perception of the world, and realising that on a deep level. Obviously priorities will shift due to this
What do you mean exactly by "increased neurosis"? How do you define neurosis here?
Selfish or self aggrandising thinking, feelings of superiority, lack of attention to others
Are you describing something which can happen without proper technique/guidance or something which inevitably happens? And I guess I'm wondering the same for the rest of your list of changes.
It happens for almost all practitioners, one problem is that the secular practise doesn’t offer the “save all suffering beings in the cosmos” narrative that Buddhism does, and so it cannot offer a way forward beyond the insight and into compassion. It usually doesn’t even try to.
I found it interesting because while I can see how the other things in your list would naturally happen as attachments lose power, I don't see why an increase in neurosis would be a necessary or even a common result. (For context, I've been meditating daily for a year and a half, for 30-60 minutes and this simply hasn't happened to me yet. In fact, if anything, the opposite happened, where I engage less in self-aggrandizing behaviour.)
Have you not heard of the spiritual ego? Most practitioners eventually grow a big ego around their practise. Chogyam Trungpas book “Cutting through spiritual materialism” is all about this
Now that you've mentioned it, I remember hearing about the term but I always took it as a possibility, especially when misapplying practice, and not a necessary part of the path. My own path so far seems to be confirming this notion of mine so the things you were saying piqued my curiosity to learn more.
Will I become more self-absorbed and grow feelings of superiority as I continue to meditate? I don't know. But I will still try and see for myself.
Will I become more self-absorbed and grow feelings of superiority as I continue to meditate? I don't know. But I will still try and see for myself.
It's an obstacle on the path to surpass, it's just that most people do go through it to some degree. For some it's severe: my old teacher told me about a co-student who solved Mu and then became extremely arrogant and left the sangha saying he doesn't need them anymore. For some it's much more mild
Author here. This is so spot on. I spent years avoiding the traditional practices/concepts because of a desire to be Someone Special (spiritual materialism). Burning that desire is probably one of the more profound early experiences of formal practice I’ve had with a teacher and a community. Wish I had the humility to avoid those 10 wandering years.
Disclaimer: This is probably going to make me sound crazy but perhaps it’s fitting.
In a deeply meditative state you can open up yourself to a spiritual state of perception. In this transcendental state you can attract other spiritual and ethereal entities. Not all of which are benevolent.
Lots of the meditative mantras, prayers and rituals perhaps are meant to ward off negative entities and even perhaps attract compassionate and positive spiritual forces
In a sense train yourself to open the door to different states of mind … this and of itself doesn’t equal enlightenment or happiness.
In a deeply meditative state you can open up yourself to a spiritual state of perception. In this transcendental state you can attract other spiritual and ethereal entities. Not all of which are benevolent.
Lots of the meditative mantras, prayers and rituals perhaps are meant to ward off negative entities and even perhaps attract compassionate and positive spiritual forces
In a sense train yourself to open the door to different states of mind … this and of itself doesn’t equal enlightenment or happiness.
Yes, in the realm of emptiness (which we are never apart from) we can directly touch Buddhas and bodhisattvas, since we are never separate from them anyway. Buddhist practise helps us see this directly
Absolutely meditation is just one part of 8 part Hindu Yoga system objective of which is to be one with the ultimate reality and live a good life no matter what. Person grown with strong Abrahmic values with find it confusing any strange.
After reading Bhagwad Geeta I realised that yoga/meditation is all about discharging your duties with no expectations. I won't say I am transformed but my life do change for good by a huge margin after realising this.
After reading Bhagwad Geeta I realised that yoga/meditation is all about discharging your duties with no expectations. I won't say I am transformed but my life do change for good by a huge margin after realising this.
The people who have popularized meditation in the west, Jack Kornfield, Sharon Salzburg, Joseph Goldstein, zinn, all come at it from the Buddhist tradition.
It’s a useful approach for treating various medical problems. Anything, even nothing, can cause psychosis.
It’s a useful approach for treating various medical problems. Anything, even nothing, can cause psychosis.
This is minimising the risks, and those people you mention, while being from traditional backgrounds, afaik do not teach traditional practises, so they have effectively removed the wider framework
Meditation is not “as safe as sitting down”. It has strong life altering risks
Meditation is not “as safe as sitting down”. It has strong life altering risks
For those dealing with chronic pain, insomnia and other debilitating conditions, these people offer a lot that cannot be achieved through other means. Opiates or benzodiazepines are more readily available, and preferred by mainstream medicine, but they too can alter one’s life. Anything can alter one’s life if you think about it.
I would argue Zen Buddhism is secular, so I'm not quite sure the distinction you're trying to make.
Zen Buddhism is not secular at all. It is a traditional form of Mahayana Buddhism. In China and Vietnam Zen Buddhists practise Pure Land extensively. Dogen in Japan, the creator of Soto Zen, was heavily invested in the Lotus sutra and mentioned rebirth constantly. Where did you learn that it is secular? This is not true
"The book of the golden rules" is what you're looking for.
I switched from meditation to contemplation. we are here to use our feeble brains not shut them off.
I don’t think you understand meditation if you think it’s “shutting it off”. If anything it’s the opposite, radically opening it
Contemplation is one use of our brains. It usually means focusing on an idea.
Meditation can mean many different things, but in the mindfulness sense, it usually means engaging in awareness and observing metacognition instead of cognition. This usually means observing the flow of mind, body, feelings, and truth. It isn't a process of shutting down.
Meditation can mean many different things, but in the mindfulness sense, it usually means engaging in awareness and observing metacognition instead of cognition. This usually means observing the flow of mind, body, feelings, and truth. It isn't a process of shutting down.
The original form of meditation meant "to think" and the classical texts don't differentiate between "thinking" and "deeply meditating".
I don't personally care for the spaced out kind of meditation. I tend to focus internally and deeply on something I want to explore or feel.
I don't personally care for the spaced out kind of meditation. I tend to focus internally and deeply on something I want to explore or feel.
We are here.
without purpose.
we ascribe purpose to our abilities and faculties by choice
without purpose.
we ascribe purpose to our abilities and faculties by choice
I like to imagine what the Earth and everything on it looks like to a neutrino.
In the last few years or so I've been practicing letting go the compulsion to be doing Something Else in addition to the Main Thing I'm doing. For example: the urge to listen to a podcast while I'm doing the dishes. Among the worst is the urge to listen to music while I'm listening to music, or the desire to play a videogame while I'm reading a book to my child. Part of this change is because I don't want to break any more dishes for lack of attention, but also because attending to the Main Thing feels more valuable now in that if it doesn't require 100% focus my mind can wander, or just let the neutrinos stream through, and afterwards I appreciate the break.