Fasting boosts stem cells’ regenerative capacity (2018)(news.mit.edu)
news.mit.edu
Fasting boosts stem cells’ regenerative capacity (2018)
https://news.mit.edu/2018/fasting-boosts-stem-cells-regenerative-capacity-0503
174 comments
While I’ve done similar fasting myself, with the same wondrous effects you describe, I want to point out that it seems this might be a lot harder to do for young women (in child bearing age). My partner tried to replicate what I did since I was hyping it so much, and failed miserably. Later we learned that the female body reacts much more violently to the lack of calories than male ones, and its a lot harder for them. Or maybe she had other compounding factors.
While she couldn’t do the several day fast, we found out that it was quite feasible to do the “one meal per day” thing, which shares a lot of the health benefits, and its a lot more forgiving.
While she couldn’t do the several day fast, we found out that it was quite feasible to do the “one meal per day” thing, which shares a lot of the health benefits, and its a lot more forgiving.
I'm kind of doing "one meal per day" right now, not because I'm fasting on purpose but just because I don't enjoy eating (or cooking) more than once in a day. I mean I like to cook but doing it for over an hour every day just becomes a chore.
I was under the impression that this was really unhealthy though. My BMI is 19 so I'm close to being underweight. Isn't this unhealthy? Do people fast and not lose weight?
I was under the impression that this was really unhealthy though. My BMI is 19 so I'm close to being underweight. Isn't this unhealthy? Do people fast and not lose weight?
I’m sure many would be quick to jump to numbers on how much you are supposed to consume/burn in a day, but I really don’t think eating too little or too much is by itself an indicator.
The underlying psychological issues and associated stresses is what IMO qualifies as “unhealthy”, in which case corresponding under- or over-eating could result in malnourishment or excess weight[0]. However, in absence of these issues or other factors suppressing your body’s hunger/satiety messaging, not eating some “standard amount” shouldn’t be an issue on its own[1].
I happen to know a person who fasts routinely. In case of that person it doesn’t seem to be motivated by hidden psychological issues (he does not strike me as a person who could be suffering from body dysmorphia/anorexia) but by a conscious health choice. As an example of his logic, recently he got COVID and from his words he “simply” didn’t eat for two days and was right back on his feet feeling great. It’s not my place to question his choices, and I myself try to space meals to spend 14–16 hours without food every day since it seems to leave me feeling better, so it was surprising to hear but not too outlandish. He is not bulky but not skinnier than me either[2].
(I’m not a doctor, but from a cursory check medicine does seem to classify eating disorders as “expressive”, i.e. indicative of underlying issues. I don’t know how medicine treats under-eating without a cause, I certainly hope they don’t try to force-“treat” someone to make them eat at a level medicine considers “normal”.)
[0] For the record, I don’t think one can truly address those root causes just by eating less or more.
[1] In fact IIRC lower metabolic rates have been correlated with longer lifespans, at least in mice and in snails if not in humans.
[2] I’m slightly underweight, and can eat quite a bit without gaining much weight. My sister is similar, and she quickly gets low blood sugar shakes if she doesn’t eat enough. I guess it’s a sign of fast metabolism.
The underlying psychological issues and associated stresses is what IMO qualifies as “unhealthy”, in which case corresponding under- or over-eating could result in malnourishment or excess weight[0]. However, in absence of these issues or other factors suppressing your body’s hunger/satiety messaging, not eating some “standard amount” shouldn’t be an issue on its own[1].
I happen to know a person who fasts routinely. In case of that person it doesn’t seem to be motivated by hidden psychological issues (he does not strike me as a person who could be suffering from body dysmorphia/anorexia) but by a conscious health choice. As an example of his logic, recently he got COVID and from his words he “simply” didn’t eat for two days and was right back on his feet feeling great. It’s not my place to question his choices, and I myself try to space meals to spend 14–16 hours without food every day since it seems to leave me feeling better, so it was surprising to hear but not too outlandish. He is not bulky but not skinnier than me either[2].
(I’m not a doctor, but from a cursory check medicine does seem to classify eating disorders as “expressive”, i.e. indicative of underlying issues. I don’t know how medicine treats under-eating without a cause, I certainly hope they don’t try to force-“treat” someone to make them eat at a level medicine considers “normal”.)
[0] For the record, I don’t think one can truly address those root causes just by eating less or more.
[1] In fact IIRC lower metabolic rates have been correlated with longer lifespans, at least in mice and in snails if not in humans.
[2] I’m slightly underweight, and can eat quite a bit without gaining much weight. My sister is similar, and she quickly gets low blood sugar shakes if she doesn’t eat enough. I guess it’s a sign of fast metabolism.
> I’m slightly underweight, and I can eat quite a bit without gaining much weight
Interesting! Here's a challenge for you: could you buy — and eat — 5000 calories of chips/candy/soda per day for the next 90 days. You may not walk/run more than 5km/day, nor engage in other exercise for more than 30m/day.
Please weigh yourself before & after this experiment.
Interesting! Here's a challenge for you: could you buy — and eat — 5000 calories of chips/candy/soda per day for the next 90 days. You may not walk/run more than 5km/day, nor engage in other exercise for more than 30m/day.
Please weigh yourself before & after this experiment.
I used to (?) stress-eat periodically (especially before I started trying to space out meals) and could go a long time without any exercise so pretty sure I approached this at some point or another in my life. Don’t weigh myself regularly but there were no signs of gaining weight. Maybe I’ll become heavy in my thirties, but so far all of that goes neither into fat nor into muscle.
Weight gain or loss is all about calories in versus calories out. It is possible to exceed your TDEE in one meal, just a little difficult or unlikely. Whether or not this is unhealthy or not is dependent on the person. I will say that I worry that many in my generation are developing eating disorders and calling it fasting/OMAD/etc.
For most males it should be possible to get enough calories and nutrients from just one meal, but I would not say easy. It is far easier with two meals, or maybe a time window of 4 hours.
It's probably also better to ease into it. So start with an 8 hour eating window and slowly decrease the window.
Getting enough calories and nutrients can be a challenge and is far from easy with the "standard western diet". I would really recommend seeking advice from a professional.
It's probably also better to ease into it. So start with an 8 hour eating window and slowly decrease the window.
Getting enough calories and nutrients can be a challenge and is far from easy with the "standard western diet". I would really recommend seeking advice from a professional.
>Getting enough calories and nutrients can be a challenge and is far from easy with the "standard western diet".
Have you been to a grocery store in the last 100 years? Getting enough calories and nutrients is dead simple, our stores are overflowing with fresh fruit, vegetables, nuts and meat. What is the "standard western diet"?
Have you been to a grocery store in the last 100 years? Getting enough calories and nutrients is dead simple, our stores are overflowing with fresh fruit, vegetables, nuts and meat. What is the "standard western diet"?
> What is the "standard western diet"?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_pattern_diet, also referred to throughout the article as "The Standard American Diet".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_pattern_diet, also referred to throughout the article as "The Standard American Diet".
Under normal circumstances the difficulty with the western diet is getting enough nutrients, but not too much calories.
I meant the combination can be a challenge if your on a narrow time feeding window.
I meant the combination can be a challenge if your on a narrow time feeding window.
Sorry but that's kind if anecdotal. You're extending the case of one woman age (x) to all women age (x).
Yes, you say "maybe she had other compounding factors" which is equivalent to saying her case was idiosyncratic. In which case, why try to generalise it at all then?
When I look around the city, I see a lot of underweight women of all ages, including childbearing age — whatever the hell we're defining that as.* Many of them will be underweight by skipping meals, full on fasting, or eating and forcing themselves to throw it up later. This is the society, the mentality we have created.
Some of them I am friends with, others I have never met but write about it. Some claim to struggle with fasting, others fast and mention nothing about the difficulty or ease, and others struggle to eat enough. And some eat whatever they want and don't regulate it at all.
The takeaway is that when it comes to nutrition, there are a lot of factors and every case is idiosyncratic. There are no general rules other than "eat so you don't die", "don't eat so much you explode" and "don't eat toxic or corrosive chemicals". And even then, different people will have different tolerances to not eating, eating too much, and eating poison.
Nutrition is poorly understood, poorly communicated, and the driving factor behind the freight train of bullshit marketing telling people that they need to be wafer-like, elven creatures.
Full transparency, I'm underweight according to what I'm sure is actually a pretty shoddy measurement of weight...ness, but I don't do anything special. I fast quite a lot but I don't actually have a fasting regime, it's not planned, I just don't eat for extended periods of time.
When I do eat, it's really not a remarkable experience so I don't feel a need to change my behaviour. I eat enough to not die or suffer health problems thus far.
_____
* Since it will be a subset of {all ages}, my reasoning is covered.
Yes, you say "maybe she had other compounding factors" which is equivalent to saying her case was idiosyncratic. In which case, why try to generalise it at all then?
When I look around the city, I see a lot of underweight women of all ages, including childbearing age — whatever the hell we're defining that as.* Many of them will be underweight by skipping meals, full on fasting, or eating and forcing themselves to throw it up later. This is the society, the mentality we have created.
Some of them I am friends with, others I have never met but write about it. Some claim to struggle with fasting, others fast and mention nothing about the difficulty or ease, and others struggle to eat enough. And some eat whatever they want and don't regulate it at all.
The takeaway is that when it comes to nutrition, there are a lot of factors and every case is idiosyncratic. There are no general rules other than "eat so you don't die", "don't eat so much you explode" and "don't eat toxic or corrosive chemicals". And even then, different people will have different tolerances to not eating, eating too much, and eating poison.
Nutrition is poorly understood, poorly communicated, and the driving factor behind the freight train of bullshit marketing telling people that they need to be wafer-like, elven creatures.
Full transparency, I'm underweight according to what I'm sure is actually a pretty shoddy measurement of weight...ness, but I don't do anything special. I fast quite a lot but I don't actually have a fasting regime, it's not planned, I just don't eat for extended periods of time.
When I do eat, it's really not a remarkable experience so I don't feel a need to change my behaviour. I eat enough to not die or suffer health problems thus far.
_____
* Since it will be a subset of {all ages}, my reasoning is covered.
>Sorry but that's kind if anecdotal.
He said they later learned it's known that women react to fasting differently and can have negative side effects, which we also discovered from our doctor when trying to get pregnant - so don't really see anything anecdotal there.
He said they later learned it's known that women react to fasting differently and can have negative side effects, which we also discovered from our doctor when trying to get pregnant - so don't really see anything anecdotal there.
It's not anecdotal because your anecdote matched the parent's anecdote. Okay. Scientific method looking robust in this field.
My point is that any nutritional thing is anecdotal because people don't neatly slot into a category when it comes to nutrition.
My point is that any nutritional thing is anecdotal because people don't neatly slot into a category when it comes to nutrition.
I really think a 7 day fast should be 'mandatory reading' as far as life experience goes. You learn a lot about yourself.
Also echo the mental clarity side of fasting. The weight loss was great, but how I felt was even better.
The crazy thing is, if you can get to 7 days, anything past that is just mental and you can go as long as you have the body fat to sustain the fast, provided you're keeping an eye on your electrolytes and not drinking too much water.
Also echo the mental clarity side of fasting. The weight loss was great, but how I felt was even better.
The crazy thing is, if you can get to 7 days, anything past that is just mental and you can go as long as you have the body fat to sustain the fast, provided you're keeping an eye on your electrolytes and not drinking too much water.
I'm not sure if starting something like a 7-day fast without medical supervision is a good idea, and I'm also not sure if any medical professional would allow you to do that, just thinking out loud.
Don't you think it's too dangerous to name it essential life experience and recommend it to random people on the internet?
I'm really asking, I'm not knowledgeable about this at all, and my questions stem from pure gut feeling.
Don't you think it's too dangerous to name it essential life experience and recommend it to random people on the internet?
I'm really asking, I'm not knowledgeable about this at all, and my questions stem from pure gut feeling.
I feel 100% confident, based on my experience, in saying that almost any healthy adult has the ability to fast for 7 days without any negative consequences to their short term or long term health. In fact, I'd say there's only positives.
Obviously if you feel differently, talk with your doctor. I am not a doctor, and this is not medical advice. I thought that went without saying on the internet, but just to be extra careful, there it is.
Couple of caveats in the almost. Pregnancy, Eating Disorders, Elite Athletes functioning at under 5% bodyfat, and again the key word being _healthy_ here. If you have any kind of condition, disorder, disease, etc. obviously talk to a medical professional.
Most people just don't have the desire to do it, and if you're not used to fasting and eating a standard diet, the first few days will make you feel terrible both physically and mentally. Just like anything, it gets easier with practice.
Obviously if you feel differently, talk with your doctor. I am not a doctor, and this is not medical advice. I thought that went without saying on the internet, but just to be extra careful, there it is.
Couple of caveats in the almost. Pregnancy, Eating Disorders, Elite Athletes functioning at under 5% bodyfat, and again the key word being _healthy_ here. If you have any kind of condition, disorder, disease, etc. obviously talk to a medical professional.
Most people just don't have the desire to do it, and if you're not used to fasting and eating a standard diet, the first few days will make you feel terrible both physically and mentally. Just like anything, it gets easier with practice.
> If you have any kind of condition, disorder, disease, etc. obviously talk to a medical professional.
That's sort of the rub in cavalierly recommending things to the general population, even when they're only somewhat extreme. There are plenty of undiagnosed conditions out there, and the further you move from the center of the distribution, the more you're going to sweep up potential risk in ways that aren't easily caught with a simple "not applicable if".
I say this as someone who fasts pretty often, though usually not more than 2 days. It's the same reason I wouldn't recommend everyone go out and take 200 mcg of LSD, "unless you have a mental health condition". This world of perfect information about one's own health that you're imagining simply doesn't exist. (Again, I say this as someone who thinks LSD is wonderful and salutary and has recommended it to many many friends in person with the appropriate personalized caveats).
That's sort of the rub in cavalierly recommending things to the general population, even when they're only somewhat extreme. There are plenty of undiagnosed conditions out there, and the further you move from the center of the distribution, the more you're going to sweep up potential risk in ways that aren't easily caught with a simple "not applicable if".
I say this as someone who fasts pretty often, though usually not more than 2 days. It's the same reason I wouldn't recommend everyone go out and take 200 mcg of LSD, "unless you have a mental health condition". This world of perfect information about one's own health that you're imagining simply doesn't exist. (Again, I say this as someone who thinks LSD is wonderful and salutary and has recommended it to many many friends in person with the appropriate personalized caveats).
I also question if 7 days is safe for most. I don't recall exactly when and a quick search now yields a lot of random gimmicky fasting product sales sites with blog posts written to generate traffic that aren't scientific enough, but I do recall that there is a point (after 72 hours?) where your body starts breaking down muscle and that prolonged fasting is dangerous as your organs get hit next?
Perhaps someone here with medical experience can chime in, but I agree 7 days seems a bit extreme for most people.
Perhaps someone here with medical experience can chime in, but I agree 7 days seems a bit extreme for most people.
I haven't seen any convincing evidence that significant muscle loss occurs with a 7 day fast. If you get a DEXA scan before and after, you will have lost a lot of "lean body mass" and your muscles will be smaller, but it's only because you lose about 5-10lbs of water weight.
The only major health risk is refeeding syndrome, and even then it's only really notable if you're an alcoholic or have anorexia. If you're otherwise healthy with normal sodium/potassium/etc. intake and you take it slow when refeeding, I don't think it's particularly dangerous. Obviously, talk to your doctor, and it's probably good to get blood work before doing something like this.
The only major health risk is refeeding syndrome, and even then it's only really notable if you're an alcoholic or have anorexia. If you're otherwise healthy with normal sodium/potassium/etc. intake and you take it slow when refeeding, I don't think it's particularly dangerous. Obviously, talk to your doctor, and it's probably good to get blood work before doing something like this.
I lost zero noticeable lean muscle mass on my 60 day fast, at least no more than I would have sitting on the couch doing nothing.
There's just not a metabolic pathway for breaking down muscle/organ tissue for energy when you have adequate fat stores. We would have died off as a species a long time ago if that were the case.
In the grand scheme of things, if you have the body fat, 7 days is nothing for a fast.
Edit: To those asking, yes. I fasted for 60 days, water and electrolytes, no calories.
There's just not a metabolic pathway for breaking down muscle/organ tissue for energy when you have adequate fat stores. We would have died off as a species a long time ago if that were the case.
In the grand scheme of things, if you have the body fat, 7 days is nothing for a fast.
Edit: To those asking, yes. I fasted for 60 days, water and electrolytes, no calories.
When you say 60 day fast, are you saying you didn’t eat for 60 days and just drank water?
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27619297
I remember his post from a few months back - found it rather inspiring.
I remember his post from a few months back - found it rather inspiring.
Thanks a lot for linking that @brodouevencode
Did you exercise or work during this period?
Once-ish a week there was Light lifting, think moving a whole trees worth of firewood or a light day on a family farm.
Quite frequently I hit over 10k steps/day on my step tracker, sometimes double that. I live in the middle of a major city and walk everywhere, and this was before work from home.
If you’re looking for exercise/fasting advice check out my fat per unit time post elsewhere in this thread.
Quite frequently I hit over 10k steps/day on my step tracker, sometimes double that. I live in the middle of a major city and walk everywhere, and this was before work from home.
If you’re looking for exercise/fasting advice check out my fat per unit time post elsewhere in this thread.
Thought experiment...
Humans have weathered long durations of food insecurity for much of their existence. If the default metabolic solution to fasting was harvesting energy from skeletal muscle and smooth muscle... well that strategy wouldn't work for very long, would it? The lowest hanging fruit is muscle/liver glycogen, and fat mass after that.
Breaking down proteins (gluconeogenesis) is a metabolically expensive process, requiring large energy input for low energy output. The body is wholly invested in protecting these vital organs. Skeletal muscle has a reputation for being fickle, subject to change based on stimulus and energy demands, but those adjustments are most significant and relevant to those who are invested in maximizing lean mass (athletes, bodybuilders, statistical outliers).
Fasting is relatively protein-sparing, all things considered. The observations of apparent muscle loss can be attributed to loss of muscle turgidity - a reduction in glycogen, intracellular fluid, and electrolytes. The difference between fed and fasted states, both visual and internal perceptions, are quite extreme.
Are extended fasts ideal, or even generally recommended, for someone with the singular goal of building muscle? Absolutely not. But it is a flexible tool when goals shift towards catabolic outcomes (losing weight). Furthermore, the downstream benefits of fasting can translate to improvements in insulin sensitivity, nutrient partitioning, muscle-building, and body composition... which are relevant to anabolic outcomes.
Humans have weathered long durations of food insecurity for much of their existence. If the default metabolic solution to fasting was harvesting energy from skeletal muscle and smooth muscle... well that strategy wouldn't work for very long, would it? The lowest hanging fruit is muscle/liver glycogen, and fat mass after that.
Breaking down proteins (gluconeogenesis) is a metabolically expensive process, requiring large energy input for low energy output. The body is wholly invested in protecting these vital organs. Skeletal muscle has a reputation for being fickle, subject to change based on stimulus and energy demands, but those adjustments are most significant and relevant to those who are invested in maximizing lean mass (athletes, bodybuilders, statistical outliers).
Fasting is relatively protein-sparing, all things considered. The observations of apparent muscle loss can be attributed to loss of muscle turgidity - a reduction in glycogen, intracellular fluid, and electrolytes. The difference between fed and fasted states, both visual and internal perceptions, are quite extreme.
Are extended fasts ideal, or even generally recommended, for someone with the singular goal of building muscle? Absolutely not. But it is a flexible tool when goals shift towards catabolic outcomes (losing weight). Furthermore, the downstream benefits of fasting can translate to improvements in insulin sensitivity, nutrient partitioning, muscle-building, and body composition... which are relevant to anabolic outcomes.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2495396/
"A 27-year-old male patient fasted under supervision for 382 days and has subsequently maintained his normal weight."
By comparison 7 days is trivial. More to the point, a 7 day fast with medical supervision should be safe, if it is not, the supervisor will advise against it.
"A 27-year-old male patient fasted under supervision for 382 days and has subsequently maintained his normal weight."
By comparison 7 days is trivial. More to the point, a 7 day fast with medical supervision should be safe, if it is not, the supervisor will advise against it.
Not to be snarky, but reading the linked study would be helpful here. Your body is quite intelligent when it comes to drawing on its energy reserves.
This is a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-dont situation. If OP says you should fast and someone gets hurt, that's bad. If OP says you shouldn't fast then what gains could have been made in that lost time.
A better way of looking at it is to take it incrementally
* skipping breakfast
* skipping breakfast and lunch
* skipping a whole day
* eating one meal every two days
* eating one meal every three days
* ...you get the point...
I don't think OP would advocate just jumping right into it. Start small, work up from there, listen to your body. You wouldn't jump right into running a full marathon.
A better way of looking at it is to take it incrementally
* skipping breakfast
* skipping breakfast and lunch
* skipping a whole day
* eating one meal every two days
* eating one meal every three days
* ...you get the point...
I don't think OP would advocate just jumping right into it. Start small, work up from there, listen to your body. You wouldn't jump right into running a full marathon.
Exactly right, to all of this advice.
I believe I say multiple times in this thread nobody should just jump in and do 60 days, however I believe anyone (caveat-ed up thread) can 'jump in' and do 7 days at any point in their life.
It won't be easy, it'll be especially hard if you've never fasted before and are on a standard diet, but it won't be dangerous. It'll just probably be the most difficult physical and mental thing you've ever done.
Also, thanks for linking to my spreadsheet up there.
I believe I say multiple times in this thread nobody should just jump in and do 60 days, however I believe anyone (caveat-ed up thread) can 'jump in' and do 7 days at any point in their life.
It won't be easy, it'll be especially hard if you've never fasted before and are on a standard diet, but it won't be dangerous. It'll just probably be the most difficult physical and mental thing you've ever done.
Also, thanks for linking to my spreadsheet up there.
> I'm not sure if starting something like a 7-day fast without medical supervision is a good idea
I'm not sure starting a western diet without medical supervision is a better idea given 75% of the west is overweight or obese. Unless you have medical conditions a 7 days fast is a walk in the park in term of health
I'm not sure starting a western diet without medical supervision is a better idea given 75% of the west is overweight or obese. Unless you have medical conditions a 7 days fast is a walk in the park in term of health
You bring up some interesting points. I've dabbled with fasting in the past and it seems to be relatively safe and beneficial up to 10 days but there are two mistakes I see people make.
Mistake 1: Drinking pure water. Your body does need some specific minerals even when fasting. Cole Robinson, a fasting focused youtuber (who is not for everyone), has shared a Magnesium, Sodium, Potassium, Sodium Bicarbonate & Water recipe he calls Snake Juice that keeps electrolytes steady during a fast.
Mistake 2: Drinking liquids that break the fast. I've watched youtube videos of fasters add things like diet soda, gatorade, and even jello to their fast. That defeats the whole purpose and negates any positive effect.
Mistake 1: Drinking pure water. Your body does need some specific minerals even when fasting. Cole Robinson, a fasting focused youtuber (who is not for everyone), has shared a Magnesium, Sodium, Potassium, Sodium Bicarbonate & Water recipe he calls Snake Juice that keeps electrolytes steady during a fast.
Mistake 2: Drinking liquids that break the fast. I've watched youtube videos of fasters add things like diet soda, gatorade, and even jello to their fast. That defeats the whole purpose and negates any positive effect.
[deleted]
Diet sodas get a bad rap and for good reason, but I've been unable to stick with anything other than diet soda long term (though I've tried multiple times). I know that diet sodas can spike blood sugar in some people, but it doesn't break me out of ketosis when fasting. YMMV.
Just my perspective, but I think diet soda certainly breaks a fast. I can see how it could potentially not affect ketosis, but as far as fasting goes, water & minerals are truly the way to go. I will also concede a true "water" fast makes the fast much harder, although I think that's part of the experience. It's not supposed to be easy.
> The crazy thing is, if you can get to 7 days, anything past that is just mental and you can go as long as you have the body fat to sustain the fast,
It's not that easy. You have to properly substitute electrolytes - sodium, potassium and magnesium. And that is almost impossible without small doses of carbs.
My longest fasting was 42 days. I did 28 days three times before. I'm fasting more or less regularly (once per year) for about 25 years.
Don't do very long fasting without guidance of a doctor. Your heart needs properly balanced electrolytes.
EDIT: I've just seen your other comments here also underlining the need of electrolytes. I still leave my comment here for the other readers ...
It's not that easy. You have to properly substitute electrolytes - sodium, potassium and magnesium. And that is almost impossible without small doses of carbs.
My longest fasting was 42 days. I did 28 days three times before. I'm fasting more or less regularly (once per year) for about 25 years.
Don't do very long fasting without guidance of a doctor. Your heart needs properly balanced electrolytes.
EDIT: I've just seen your other comments here also underlining the need of electrolytes. I still leave my comment here for the other readers ...
I would say there are some things to watch for if doing long term fasts, one is salt and potassium levels to prevent heart attacks, especailly true for those of us who are on the larger side, and especially as one get's closer to say the 20 day mark. A week or two probably wouldn't kill anyone if they have the fat stores, but a heart attack prompted by lack of salts is a potential concern.
>It's such a shame that there isn't more research in this area.
From what I've seen there is actually research into it and the weight loss/fitness benefits don't seem to be any better than any other calorie restriction when equating calories (slightly worse for muscle mass when combined with exercise in one study IIRC), and other claims seem overblown.
Layne Norton has a couple of good study reviews (eg. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PyBoKSv2tI)
From what I've seen there is actually research into it and the weight loss/fitness benefits don't seem to be any better than any other calorie restriction when equating calories (slightly worse for muscle mass when combined with exercise in one study IIRC), and other claims seem overblown.
Layne Norton has a couple of good study reviews (eg. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PyBoKSv2tI)
You're right, the weight loss per calorie restricted is about the same. That's not the point, it's about feeling better, being healthier and for IF, the lifestyle makes it easier to manage your sugar intake, calorie intake and overall health.
Sure, but I think there were some studies that looked at adherence and it didn't seem different to other diets there as well - but I could be misremembering.
That being said - this is highly individual stuff - even if something doesn't work for 99% of people - it doesn't matter if it works for you - and it's easy to try.
It's just important to have realistic expectations about these things, because overhyping tends to lead to motivation spikes - you get enthusiastic and then you get disappointed and crash to 0.
That being said - this is highly individual stuff - even if something doesn't work for 99% of people - it doesn't matter if it works for you - and it's easy to try.
It's just important to have realistic expectations about these things, because overhyping tends to lead to motivation spikes - you get enthusiastic and then you get disappointed and crash to 0.
I have tried fasting by skipping breakfast and I have mostly failed because I am unable to endure when hunger strikes. I am interested to learn the mental methods you use to over that struggle.
You have to wrap your brain around the idea that hunger isn't pain to be avoided but a natural feeling that comes in waves. It's not you that's hungry, it's your gut microbes and they can be annoying but they don't really hurt you. Hunger is the sensation that one has when some of their gut microbes are running out of food an experiencing stress.
I recently did a significant amount of caloric restriction, from probably 2500/day down to more like 1500/day. The first day was awful. The second day wasn't so bad. By the fourth day this new amount of calories feels fine. I had to give myself permission to do basically nothing for several days though because I just didn't have it in me.
I recently did a significant amount of caloric restriction, from probably 2500/day down to more like 1500/day. The first day was awful. The second day wasn't so bad. By the fourth day this new amount of calories feels fine. I had to give myself permission to do basically nothing for several days though because I just didn't have it in me.
It's been pretty simple for me: just get busy. Wake up, get ready for work, and go. It's tough with kids though because we make them breakfast here and the temptation is real but if I put time boundaries on myself (up at 6, out the door at 6:30) then the fake stress forces me to get out the door. Once I'm on my way to work I really don't think about it. The only thing I consume before lunch is black coffee, and that seems to fix any hunger pangs.
This. Coffee with a teaspoon of coconut oil or butter if preferred. The oil increases satiation (feeling full). Then get at it.
Whatever you need to do or narrative to tell yourself why you don't need to eat, do it. Keep busy, work, clean the house or volunteer. By keeping occupied, the mind will not seek food out of boredom and ritual.
Eat once a day. Typically I "reward" myself with the evening meal after fasting through the day. There are different kinds of fasts but the one which seems to work best for me is 1-big-meal a day type fast. The rest of the day, I can drink water or black coffee.
Whatever you need to do or narrative to tell yourself why you don't need to eat, do it. Keep busy, work, clean the house or volunteer. By keeping occupied, the mind will not seek food out of boredom and ritual.
Eat once a day. Typically I "reward" myself with the evening meal after fasting through the day. There are different kinds of fasts but the one which seems to work best for me is 1-big-meal a day type fast. The rest of the day, I can drink water or black coffee.
This is what helped me - your milage may vary.
1) Remove from your mind the idea that huner is suffering. It's all in your head. It's merely a mild discomfort.
If you ate last night and woke up in the morning, you are not hungry. You are just used to eat in the morning. Your body will not suffer any thing from skipping breakfast. It alerady has more than enough energy storage. It was designed to tap into it.
2) Surround yourself in a virtual environment where fasting and accepting hunger is the norm and expcted and obvious thing to do.
Read blogs about fasting. Watch youtube videos about fasting. Read books about fasting. Watch how people who consistently fast are healthy and fit.
3) Understand that there are two types of pleasure. Fleeting pleasures, and lasting pleasures. The fleeting pleasure are the sensual. They are momentary and quickly go away. If you spend your life chasing fleeting pleasures, you will be miserable.
Lasting pleasures - if you can call them so - are mental states. Contentment. Feeling in control of your life. These don't come from things. They come from what you value and the way you conduct yourself in the world. If you have no value, you will be controlled by your desires.
Some people think this is freedom: to do whatever you desire. To me, it's slavery. Because when you follow this path your life will be miserable.
Some people try to cheat by pretending that their misery is actually happiness. You see it in the people who insist that fat is healthy and beautfil and hot!
4) Understand that your mind is distributed. Even if you resolve to fasting, there will be some component of your mind that really really wants to just keep eating. Sometimes it might come out and win. Accept that such a thing could happen. When it does happen, don't be too hard on yoruself. Try to understand why it's happening. But anyway, go back right away. Understand that many other components of your mind want to continue doing the right thing.
1) Remove from your mind the idea that huner is suffering. It's all in your head. It's merely a mild discomfort.
If you ate last night and woke up in the morning, you are not hungry. You are just used to eat in the morning. Your body will not suffer any thing from skipping breakfast. It alerady has more than enough energy storage. It was designed to tap into it.
2) Surround yourself in a virtual environment where fasting and accepting hunger is the norm and expcted and obvious thing to do.
Read blogs about fasting. Watch youtube videos about fasting. Read books about fasting. Watch how people who consistently fast are healthy and fit.
3) Understand that there are two types of pleasure. Fleeting pleasures, and lasting pleasures. The fleeting pleasure are the sensual. They are momentary and quickly go away. If you spend your life chasing fleeting pleasures, you will be miserable.
Lasting pleasures - if you can call them so - are mental states. Contentment. Feeling in control of your life. These don't come from things. They come from what you value and the way you conduct yourself in the world. If you have no value, you will be controlled by your desires.
Some people think this is freedom: to do whatever you desire. To me, it's slavery. Because when you follow this path your life will be miserable.
Some people try to cheat by pretending that their misery is actually happiness. You see it in the people who insist that fat is healthy and beautfil and hot!
4) Understand that your mind is distributed. Even if you resolve to fasting, there will be some component of your mind that really really wants to just keep eating. Sometimes it might come out and win. Accept that such a thing could happen. When it does happen, don't be too hard on yoruself. Try to understand why it's happening. But anyway, go back right away. Understand that many other components of your mind want to continue doing the right thing.
One small thing I learned is that a lot of what I thought was hunger was actually thirst. I have been eating one meal a day (with some exceptions) for the past 3 or 4 years. If you're hungry during a fast, drink something. This will put something in your stomach and that helps and then after a bit the hunger goes away if you ignore it long enough. When fasting you need to up your fluid intake anyway.
The biggest thing that helped me aside from trying to change my mindset, is black coffee and black tea without anything added. Coffee in particular seems to have a hunger suppressant quality and helps with perceived energy loss, but black tea seems to do the same for me. Whenever I am feeling hungry I just drink tea or coffee. There are so few calories involved that I believe it doesn't break a fasting state. Some may consider it breaking the rule, IDK.
Caffeine in general is a hunger suppressant. Many weight loss pills wil have caffeine added.
This is about intestinal stem cells in specific.
And, of course, in mice.
(Still noteworthy if you are trying to understand why fasting seems to help with many different ailments.)
And, of course, in mice.
(Still noteworthy if you are trying to understand why fasting seems to help with many different ailments.)
There's something to the whole regenerative thing and fasting.
Best I remember feeling in my adult life was after a 60 day fast. Not what I'd do today, or at least not the same way, but I highly recommend every healthy human fast for at least 7 days once every couple years.
The plural of anecdote is not evidence, YMMV, consult your doctor, I don't even play one on the internet, etc.
That being said, I'm currently on day 3 of an extended fast myself.
Best I remember feeling in my adult life was after a 60 day fast. Not what I'd do today, or at least not the same way, but I highly recommend every healthy human fast for at least 7 days once every couple years.
The plural of anecdote is not evidence, YMMV, consult your doctor, I don't even play one on the internet, etc.
That being said, I'm currently on day 3 of an extended fast myself.
So what do you take in those days? Like 60 days fasting. Only water? Vitamins? Salt?
I did water only for the first 30 days, which was stupid, and then supplemented electrolytes -- mainly Sodium, Magnesium, Potassium -- from days 31 onward.
That one was super strict, no coffee, no tea, nothing.
EDIT - Also, this is _not_ how I would go about this now 5+ years later with more experience under my belt.
That one was super strict, no coffee, no tea, nothing.
EDIT - Also, this is _not_ how I would go about this now 5+ years later with more experience under my belt.
Wait what? English is not my native language, are you saying you didn't eat any food for 30 consecutive days??
60 days as I understood - first 30 days just water and then the next 30 days water with electrolytes
Correct. Which, for the record, I would never repeat and wasn't what I now consider safe.
Electrolyte supplementation on an extended fast is important, and I drank way _way_ too much water in the early weeks of that fast, which is also dangerous.
Electrolyte supplementation on an extended fast is important, and I drank way _way_ too much water in the early weeks of that fast, which is also dangerous.
This guy should be dead, his body should have digested himself.
How can someone not eat anything by his own will for more than a few days ? (5-7 max) you should pass out.
Also in the case that were true, let me be clear: No food intake for multiple days is extremely dangerous for your health, it will upregulate autophagy, apoptosis and will break your mitochondria bioenegetics which will explode your oxidative stress (and therefore DNA breaks) and will induce partial ischemia/hypoxia/hypoglycemia which leads to an accelerated ageing process.
Autophagy is nice, in little dose, and is best emulated pharmacologically (e.g. via some polyphenols)
That's not how it works at all. Not drinking water will damage/kill you real fast, not eating food on the other hand is pretty safe for most people. The longest fast was ~380 days [0]
If you have some fat (75% of westerners are heavily overweight or obese) you can easily fast on water only for weeks, of course you're not going to be able to exercise heavily every day or run a marathon. But if you're an overweight office worker with no other health issues you'll be just fine.
For anything over a week you probably should get medical assistance to keep an eye on vitamins and electrolytes, but you're not going to drop dead/unconscious/destroy your DNA
What's dangerous is starvation, aka fasting until your body starts giving up, but for the average westerner that's going to take a long time.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angus_Barbieri%27s_fast
If you have some fat (75% of westerners are heavily overweight or obese) you can easily fast on water only for weeks, of course you're not going to be able to exercise heavily every day or run a marathon. But if you're an overweight office worker with no other health issues you'll be just fine.
For anything over a week you probably should get medical assistance to keep an eye on vitamins and electrolytes, but you're not going to drop dead/unconscious/destroy your DNA
What's dangerous is starvation, aka fasting until your body starts giving up, but for the average westerner that's going to take a long time.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angus_Barbieri%27s_fast
You actually should exercise while fasting. When fasting, t he body gets rid of fat, and any muscles that are not essential. Which makes a lot of sense - maintaining muscle costs both protein and energy, even if they aren’t used much.
I did not try to run quickly while fasting, but I did keep doing my 5km 3 times per week, and the gym. Anaerobic was hard and quickly tiring, but aerobic exercise wasn’t really any harder.
A friend did point out that my movement was “more economical” in general - I hardly lifted my feet while running or walking, and a few other things. But I didn’t feel more tired or more strained, except for unaerobics.
I did not try to run quickly while fasting, but I did keep doing my 5km 3 times per week, and the gym. Anaerobic was hard and quickly tiring, but aerobic exercise wasn’t really any harder.
A friend did point out that my movement was “more economical” in general - I hardly lifted my feet while running or walking, and a few other things. But I didn’t feel more tired or more strained, except for unaerobics.
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1) there are tons of substances the body can't make out of nothing/lipids.
2) there are tons of substances the body can't make efficiently with no food, which leads to metabolism/health deficits.
and no it's not just vitamins and electrolytes LOL it's much more complex and diverse than that.
3) even if we assume in an ideal world, that the person who fast is able to supplement ALL the useful things and yet not take any external calories/glucose. This person would still reach a huge bioenergetic deficit/stress. Yes he will survive as you say, and might even be asymptomatic but nonetheless I would be very surprised if the biomarkers where doing Okay. Default bloodworks analysises are shit but if you command a proper analysis of your antioxidants ratio and of your bioenergetics biomarkers and apoptotic biomarkers you will see (unless I'm wrong which is very unlikely given my expertise) that the body is having a significantly accelerated aging/damage scheme. Which might not show symptoms before multiple decades later and even might not show symptoms at all in his life but statistically, there is a risk. Now he can mitigate some of those, by taking e.g. ALCAR + NAC daily for a year.
BTW the guy you linked died at 50 years old, which is not a performance.
3) even if we assume in an ideal world, that the person who fast is able to supplement ALL the useful things and yet not take any external calories/glucose. This person would still reach a huge bioenergetic deficit/stress. Yes he will survive as you say, and might even be asymptomatic but nonetheless I would be very surprised if the biomarkers where doing Okay. Default bloodworks analysises are shit but if you command a proper analysis of your antioxidants ratio and of your bioenergetics biomarkers and apoptotic biomarkers you will see (unless I'm wrong which is very unlikely given my expertise) that the body is having a significantly accelerated aging/damage scheme. Which might not show symptoms before multiple decades later and even might not show symptoms at all in his life but statistically, there is a risk. Now he can mitigate some of those, by taking e.g. ALCAR + NAC daily for a year.
BTW the guy you linked died at 50 years old, which is not a performance.
You went from "This guy should be dead" after 30 days of fasting to "this one guy died 25 years after a one year fast".
All I'm saying is that you were wrong. The human body can take much more than you explained in your first comment. You won't die nor fall unconscious and "5-7 days max" isn't anywhere close to the limit
All I'm saying is that you were wrong. The human body can take much more than you explained in your first comment. You won't die nor fall unconscious and "5-7 days max" isn't anywhere close to the limit
yes I was wrong on the potency of the damages, that does not refute my valid concern about transiently asymptomatic damages.
What are bioenergetics biomarkers and apoptotic biomarkers? Google doesn’t give me a reliable source
There are many. For apoptosis induced by mitochondria deficits you look at the level of cytochrome C. But there are others.
For oxidative stress, a good indication is the ratio of reduced glutathione (how much of your antioxidants are being used)
for bioenergetics I don't remember the relevant ones although the manifestation is not only molecular, it can be observed (mitochondria respiration rate, uncoupling, etc) maybe this paper can show the relevant ones? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4715336/
for bioenergetics I don't remember the relevant ones although the manifestation is not only molecular, it can be observed (mitochondria respiration rate, uncoupling, etc) maybe this paper can show the relevant ones? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4715336/
Are you comparing fasting to breathing aluminium particles ?
I've done a few 7 day fasts, two 14 day fasts, and one 28 day fast. Every time it gets a lot easier. I'll be a bit hungry on days one and two, but by day three I only really think about food if I smell something good. As long as I keep up on water and electrolytes, I feel great.
18days here and would carried on but had to break it for other reasons.
Glutathione possibly needs to be included as this will get low and Choline or Carnitine to remove the brain fog that occurred.
Averaged 18kg weight loss over the 18days, never felt so good in my life, like being a teenage male ramped up on Testosterone again, amazingly easy to fall asleep, excellent quality of sleep, vivid dreams which are recalled in the morning, not nightmares or anything like that. Foods which I dont like because of historical reasons smelt appealing and I wanted to eat them, no cravings for anything.
The only water I could really wanted, was the Scottish Highlands water, just didnt like Evian, S. Pellegrino, and the supermarket brands, and I wonder if highly filtered water ie dead water with no contaminants so its almost pure H2O would have been what I wanted, but they dont sell that in supermarkets AFAIK.
Ramadan is one of the fasts where you dont consume fluids during the day, and not consuming fluids will ramp up parts of your immune system which is why its important to drink fluid in order to not get angry. This could be in part because histamine is used by immune cells to move through tissues, but a personality side effect of high amounts is increased aggression. Anyone who supplements with histidine a precursor for histamine may also notice increased aggression. ie explosive rage, so be careful.
Glutathione possibly needs to be included as this will get low and Choline or Carnitine to remove the brain fog that occurred.
Averaged 18kg weight loss over the 18days, never felt so good in my life, like being a teenage male ramped up on Testosterone again, amazingly easy to fall asleep, excellent quality of sleep, vivid dreams which are recalled in the morning, not nightmares or anything like that. Foods which I dont like because of historical reasons smelt appealing and I wanted to eat them, no cravings for anything.
The only water I could really wanted, was the Scottish Highlands water, just didnt like Evian, S. Pellegrino, and the supermarket brands, and I wonder if highly filtered water ie dead water with no contaminants so its almost pure H2O would have been what I wanted, but they dont sell that in supermarkets AFAIK.
Ramadan is one of the fasts where you dont consume fluids during the day, and not consuming fluids will ramp up parts of your immune system which is why its important to drink fluid in order to not get angry. This could be in part because histamine is used by immune cells to move through tissues, but a personality side effect of high amounts is increased aggression. Anyone who supplements with histidine a precursor for histamine may also notice increased aggression. ie explosive rage, so be careful.
Most supermarkets do sell demiwater (distilled/deionised), which is great for chemistry or cleaning of electrical components, as well as having a standard base (with mineral packets) for brewing coffee or beer. I would definitely not drink it, especially not without heavy supplementation of minerals, else you lose more minerals from your water circulation than the 0 that you gain.
Sometimes its the chemicals in the water that cause the problem.
During my fast, my sense of smell became super good but the smell of chlorine in the tap water was disgusting, I couldnt drink the stuff.
During my fast, my sense of smell became super good but the smell of chlorine in the tap water was disgusting, I couldnt drink the stuff.
18 kg in 18 days is probably a typo. While fasting you never burn that much calories.
2-3 kg per week is a realistic number.
2-3 kg per week is a realistic number.
I averaged 1.3 lbs/day for the entire length of my 60 day fast, and the first two weeks were much higher weight loss than usual. I can see 18kg in 18 days depending on what size you are. Of course 2-4kg will be water weight and another 2-4kg will just be stuff that lives in your gut, which is to say you'll gain it right back when you start eating again.
I just rolled into day four of a fast and the delta from two days ago is 3.72 kg.
Most of the weight you lose in the first 3 to 5 days of a fast isn't fat, its stuff in your gut and losing water as you draw down your glycogen stores.
I just rolled into day four of a fast and the delta from two days ago is 3.72 kg.
Most of the weight you lose in the first 3 to 5 days of a fast isn't fat, its stuff in your gut and losing water as you draw down your glycogen stores.
So the water I was drinking I added a pinch of salt to it so I was drinking salty water. Obviously that will increase the Th17 cells but the number of immune cells drop off when you dont eat because generally the immune system attacks some of the food we eat, starch is one of the sugar's it wont attack.
Its not a typo, I did lose that much weight.
This is a very complex topic and Glutathione or NAC has a half life of only ~5 hours.
Had I to do it I would take ALCAR 2000MG but still you are playing with a lot of unknowns phamarcologically speaking.
As i said a lab test of bioenergetics level, oxidative stress and apotosis are needed to bring confidence.
> you are playing with a lot of unknowns phamarcologically
Totally agree, but maintaining brain function is my priority the ALCAR may also help considering its similar to choline.
Totally agree, but maintaining brain function is my priority the ALCAR may also help considering its similar to choline.
It depends on how much fat you have. The body is relatively good at living on stored fat for a while. You need to supplement things that aren't stored, like vitamins and electrolytes and you'd better do it under medical supervision. If you fast long enough you also need some amino acids.
You have zero idea of the propensity of hidden damages
Surely there’s documentation you can point us to, since quite a few people have been fasting for a month at a time for ages?
But I’m only looking for documented examples, not extrapolated theory (which is what your first response seems to be), as — already in this thread - we have examples of 60 and 380 day cases with no observable I’ll effects (and I’ll add my own, multiple 15-25 days over the years, starting about 25 years ago — with doctor verified no I’ll effects a month later in most of them)
But I’m only looking for documented examples, not extrapolated theory (which is what your first response seems to be), as — already in this thread - we have examples of 60 and 380 day cases with no observable I’ll effects (and I’ll add my own, multiple 15-25 days over the years, starting about 25 years ago — with doctor verified no I’ll effects a month later in most of them)
I'm not saying that it's healthy. I'm just saying that many people have successfully fasted for surprisingly long intervals without dropping dead.
It sounds like you never tried?
I watched my dad do 30-60 days every few years growing up. He always said how clear it made him mentally and the benefits to his health also was visible (until today he mountain-bikes across South East Asia during winter and he is in his late 70ies).
Longest I did was 40 days. Started out with 10 days a few years earlier which broke my misconceptions about if I would be able to do it. Especially the 40 days has been a healing journey for me both physically and mentally. It also gave me massive confidence about my body and taught me more about my limits than what decades of running did. I wouldn't do this long again because I lack the reserves today. But 10-20 days every few years is no issue.
I watched my dad do 30-60 days every few years growing up. He always said how clear it made him mentally and the benefits to his health also was visible (until today he mountain-bikes across South East Asia during winter and he is in his late 70ies).
Longest I did was 40 days. Started out with 10 days a few years earlier which broke my misconceptions about if I would be able to do it. Especially the 40 days has been a healing journey for me both physically and mentally. It also gave me massive confidence about my body and taught me more about my limits than what decades of running did. I wouldn't do this long again because I lack the reserves today. But 10-20 days every few years is no issue.
I'm really surprised at the number of people in this comemnt thread who think going a week without food will kill you. I don't even think it will harm any healthy adult in any way, much less kill them.
Not sure why I’d pass out from just not eating, I had plenty of body fat on me for the entirety of the fast. I wasn’t starving myself.
Estimating by weight loss my metabolism was still burning well over 2500kcal daily at the end of the fast.
Estimating by weight loss my metabolism was still burning well over 2500kcal daily at the end of the fast.
Agreed. Pretty much my numbers as well - around 300 gr weight loss a day.
An example:
A person with 14 % body fat and 74 kg body weight has around 10 kg fat. That is more than enough to go for about 30 days without any calorie intake.
An example:
A person with 14 % body fat and 74 kg body weight has around 10 kg fat. That is more than enough to go for about 30 days without any calorie intake.
Yeah, my weight loss was around 1.3 lbs or 600 grams daily. I'm a large human though.
I guess he ate some bugs in his sleep.
60 consecutive days
Yes fasting has beneficial health effects. A body can can't handle a constant high food intake.
I read a lot of research last years about the subject, try search for 'fat inflammation'.
Fasting and a more plant based diet seem to reduce chronic inflammation.
I read a lot of research last years about the subject, try search for 'fat inflammation'.
Fasting and a more plant based diet seem to reduce chronic inflammation.
Plant based is still under heavy debate, as plants have natural systems (lectins) to protect themselves. We know that veggies are a lot better than a lot of the processed stuff out there, but its a diverse area. A lot of people doing anti-inflammatory elimination diets skip a lot of plants.
Most higher* animals use fat for energy storage and "lose weight" by fasting. This is a universal fact.
All human cultures with abundant food had fasting as a part of their rituals... except for the modern American one... which then spread everywhere through food industry funded "science".
It's not that fasting is healthy... it's the other way around... eating too much all the time is unhealthy. Fasting is the default.
All human cultures with abundant food had fasting as a part of their rituals... except for the modern American one... which then spread everywhere through food industry funded "science".
It's not that fasting is healthy... it's the other way around... eating too much all the time is unhealthy. Fasting is the default.
Due to pancreatitis, my stomach has been closed since October 2020. So I have been effectively fasting for a continuous 18 months. all I think about is food.
People talk about these "wondrous" effects of fasting. All I got was headaches, tiredness, feeling sick and constantly thinking about food. I lasted 5-6 days, tried to keep my electrolyte intake as well as I could, and it was miserable. I managed to eat very little (like 500-600kcal) on day 6 and really gorged myself on day 7 despite knowing about refeeding syndrome, I just couldn't help it. That was during my prime as well, I woudn't try it again now. Maybe it does indeed work for some people due to metabolism disorders or something, but it really didn't for me. And for god's sake don't do 10-15-20 day fasts without medical supervision.
It gets easier as your body gets used to it, and you shouldn't start with a 7 day fast without experience doing 24 and 48 hour fasts.
The first time I tried a 7 day fast it was like you described, I made it to about day 5 and I couldn't take it anymore. I've done about six or seven 7+ days fasts and now it's not a big deal, I feel totally fine the whole time. If I haven't kept up on electrolytes, I might get a little light headed when I stand up, but that's about it.
I use an electrolyte mix that has sodium, potassium, magnesium, calcium, phosphorus and iron. It's a bit hard to find mixes that have phosphorus, and that's the main electrolyte that is depleted in refeeding syndrome.
The first time I tried a 7 day fast it was like you described, I made it to about day 5 and I couldn't take it anymore. I've done about six or seven 7+ days fasts and now it's not a big deal, I feel totally fine the whole time. If I haven't kept up on electrolytes, I might get a little light headed when I stand up, but that's about it.
I use an electrolyte mix that has sodium, potassium, magnesium, calcium, phosphorus and iron. It's a bit hard to find mixes that have phosphorus, and that's the main electrolyte that is depleted in refeeding syndrome.
> ... All I got was headaches, tiredness, feeling sick and constantly thinking about food. I lasted 5-6 days, tried to keep my electrolyte intake as well as I could, and it was miserable....
Fasting is not just about not eating for 16 hours in a day. When you break fast, you need to watch how much you eat, and eat a lot less.
If you fast for 16 hours then gorge yourself, your stomach will keep growling and you won't be able to get used to being hungry and think about something else.
After a couple days of moderated eating + fasting your hormone levels will reach equilibrium and you won't feel hunger as intense / won't mind it at all.
Fasting is not just about not eating for 16 hours in a day. When you break fast, you need to watch how much you eat, and eat a lot less.
If you fast for 16 hours then gorge yourself, your stomach will keep growling and you won't be able to get used to being hungry and think about something else.
After a couple days of moderated eating + fasting your hormone levels will reach equilibrium and you won't feel hunger as intense / won't mind it at all.
I think there's a misunderstanding about the semiotics of fasting. I don't mean intermittent fasting, I mean not eating, at all.
It doesn't really matter. Substitute 16 hours with however long you're fasting. You need to keep your eating habits in check when you break fast.
I'm a muslim who fasts during Ramadan (no eating / drinking until sunset) for a month, and either because I'm just conditioned mentally or because my body adapts itself, I don't really mind being hungry after 2-3 days. And the less & lighter I eat, the easier it is.
I'm a muslim who fasts during Ramadan (no eating / drinking until sunset) for a month, and either because I'm just conditioned mentally or because my body adapts itself, I don't really mind being hungry after 2-3 days. And the less & lighter I eat, the easier it is.
>It doesn't really matter.
Yes it absolutely does. You can do intermitted fasting for 10 years but most people will die when they continuously fast for more than 20 days unassisted by IV nutrients. Are we really on the same page here?
Your religious experience of skipping lunch and having a late dinner used to be my daily routine during uni, aside from a couple of coffees with a cig. Fasting for 12-16 hours is very different from fasting for 120-160 hours. Whatever you may think, you cannot be mentally conditioned not to eat at all. I'm having trouble believing that people extrapolate their experience of skipping a meal to not eating anything for days or weeks in a row.
Yes it absolutely does. You can do intermitted fasting for 10 years but most people will die when they continuously fast for more than 20 days unassisted by IV nutrients. Are we really on the same page here?
Your religious experience of skipping lunch and having a late dinner used to be my daily routine during uni, aside from a couple of coffees with a cig. Fasting for 12-16 hours is very different from fasting for 120-160 hours. Whatever you may think, you cannot be mentally conditioned not to eat at all. I'm having trouble believing that people extrapolate their experience of skipping a meal to not eating anything for days or weeks in a row.
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Re: 'People talk about these "wondrous" effects of fasting. All I got was headaches, tiredness, feeling sick and constantly thinking about food.'
It sounds like you went into it without understanding the processes that will be unfolding - you didn't do enough research, otherwise you'd understand the symptoms you described.
The first time you fast will always be the roughest - most challenging too, especially since you've likely been eating highly inflammatory foods your whole life, likely without any break - and so by removing those foods and that inflammation from your body and brain, your brain is going to start functioning differently - and better.
Your brain 1) has to prune the pathways that were dependant on such a high level of sugar in your system (and not running off of ketones), and 2) inflammation has a depressant effect on the nervous system - and so you're essentially self-medicating to depress yourself when eating inflammatory food - and when you remove that, that depression is going to life, so your brain is going to want to start working faster as well - and so there will be pathways that will want to open up again that are no longer being suppressed-depressed.
It's also possible you weren't drinking enough water - or something was off with the electrolytes amount; you don't need any electrolytes or supplements if doing 3 days or less.
Refeeding syndrome is also a myth or rather it's a concept that formed from misunderstanding and poor guidance: "you have to eat small amounts and reintroduce foods slowly so you don't cause X, Y, Z." Bullshit. If you're eating food that's harming you, that you're sensitive to and your body is sending you pain signals for - but then you ignore that discomfort and continue to eat it, eventually you'll get somewhat "conditioned" to it - so you won't feel it as much - but that pain/discomfort/disruption/signal will still be there.
When I break a fast - I've done many 3 days, a dozen or so 5 days, and a couple ~10 day fasts - I literally cook one or two massive high quality and high fat steaks and devour one immediately - and the second usually within 2 hours. I don't feel any discomfort after, and I can feel my body being happy, and my mood lifts as my body knows it has food again; sometimes I'll have kale and a pack or two of raspberries - but I usually only add that on the following day. Simple, non-processed foods that I know my body is fine with - and the steak and kale being highly nutrient and energy dense (for their food group).
I break my fast with, return to food I know my body is good with because I've done the work to figure out (and not only through an elimination diet but also diagnostics that's far more efficient and provides concrete results to follow) - rather than in an unaware-unexplored fashion ingesting whatever I've been relatively unconsciously been eating for most of my life.
It was only in my early 20s a doctor told me to stop eating wheat due to symptoms he saw I had. No one prior to that ever suggested food could have been a source of any of my problems. Soon after that I realized I was allergic to eggs, learning later it is specifically egg whites - to which my mother also later learned she is also allergic to.
The mind is a powerful thing and will allow us to do things that are harmful to us, even pulling us away from, disconnecting us from feeling, suppressing us from feeling this harm that we're doing to our body - whether from food or physical activity. Most people don't do the work to explore, in part because no one has explained it to them thoroughly enough for them to be motivated enough to try.
I'd urge to you to try fasting again - but also to be gentle with yourself, don't be forceful or violent with yourself. Just start doing 3 days at a time to start. Likewise, figure out what a healthy-clean diet is for you - nd do that diet for at least 3-5 days before starting your water fast so then you have good energy and nutrient reserves at the beginning of the fast. And then break your fast with that same diet. If you need help figuring out how to figure that out, let me know, and I'll do my best to help. I plan to eventually write a book on the topic, at least a chapter of it, but I don't have anything complete to share with you yet in this regard.
I'd also recommend you read this other comment I just made - which will help you better understand processes that occur during fasting: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31409602
And here's a 30 minute video by Dr. Jason Fung explaining by water fasting is good, healthy, and safe for us (arguably unless you're underweight and don't have fat reserves to burn): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIuj-oMN-Fk - Dr. Jason Fung - 'Therapeutic Fasting - Solving the Two-Compartment Problem'
It sounds like you went into it without understanding the processes that will be unfolding - you didn't do enough research, otherwise you'd understand the symptoms you described.
The first time you fast will always be the roughest - most challenging too, especially since you've likely been eating highly inflammatory foods your whole life, likely without any break - and so by removing those foods and that inflammation from your body and brain, your brain is going to start functioning differently - and better.
Your brain 1) has to prune the pathways that were dependant on such a high level of sugar in your system (and not running off of ketones), and 2) inflammation has a depressant effect on the nervous system - and so you're essentially self-medicating to depress yourself when eating inflammatory food - and when you remove that, that depression is going to life, so your brain is going to want to start working faster as well - and so there will be pathways that will want to open up again that are no longer being suppressed-depressed.
It's also possible you weren't drinking enough water - or something was off with the electrolytes amount; you don't need any electrolytes or supplements if doing 3 days or less.
Refeeding syndrome is also a myth or rather it's a concept that formed from misunderstanding and poor guidance: "you have to eat small amounts and reintroduce foods slowly so you don't cause X, Y, Z." Bullshit. If you're eating food that's harming you, that you're sensitive to and your body is sending you pain signals for - but then you ignore that discomfort and continue to eat it, eventually you'll get somewhat "conditioned" to it - so you won't feel it as much - but that pain/discomfort/disruption/signal will still be there.
When I break a fast - I've done many 3 days, a dozen or so 5 days, and a couple ~10 day fasts - I literally cook one or two massive high quality and high fat steaks and devour one immediately - and the second usually within 2 hours. I don't feel any discomfort after, and I can feel my body being happy, and my mood lifts as my body knows it has food again; sometimes I'll have kale and a pack or two of raspberries - but I usually only add that on the following day. Simple, non-processed foods that I know my body is fine with - and the steak and kale being highly nutrient and energy dense (for their food group).
I break my fast with, return to food I know my body is good with because I've done the work to figure out (and not only through an elimination diet but also diagnostics that's far more efficient and provides concrete results to follow) - rather than in an unaware-unexplored fashion ingesting whatever I've been relatively unconsciously been eating for most of my life.
It was only in my early 20s a doctor told me to stop eating wheat due to symptoms he saw I had. No one prior to that ever suggested food could have been a source of any of my problems. Soon after that I realized I was allergic to eggs, learning later it is specifically egg whites - to which my mother also later learned she is also allergic to.
The mind is a powerful thing and will allow us to do things that are harmful to us, even pulling us away from, disconnecting us from feeling, suppressing us from feeling this harm that we're doing to our body - whether from food or physical activity. Most people don't do the work to explore, in part because no one has explained it to them thoroughly enough for them to be motivated enough to try.
I'd urge to you to try fasting again - but also to be gentle with yourself, don't be forceful or violent with yourself. Just start doing 3 days at a time to start. Likewise, figure out what a healthy-clean diet is for you - nd do that diet for at least 3-5 days before starting your water fast so then you have good energy and nutrient reserves at the beginning of the fast. And then break your fast with that same diet. If you need help figuring out how to figure that out, let me know, and I'll do my best to help. I plan to eventually write a book on the topic, at least a chapter of it, but I don't have anything complete to share with you yet in this regard.
I'd also recommend you read this other comment I just made - which will help you better understand processes that occur during fasting: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31409602
And here's a 30 minute video by Dr. Jason Fung explaining by water fasting is good, healthy, and safe for us (arguably unless you're underweight and don't have fat reserves to burn): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIuj-oMN-Fk - Dr. Jason Fung - 'Therapeutic Fasting - Solving the Two-Compartment Problem'
Have a family member dealing with this also. Has lost an incredible amount of weight (but not "good" weight loss) and has insulin issues and also neuropathy. Horrible disease and it seems the treatments aren't very effective either.
Fasting is also good to pocket and limits exposure to unhealthy food.
It also gives body the time to recover from adverse effects of unhealthy food.
And good for getting rid of lean body mass...
Completely incorrect.
Time-restricted eating and concurrent exercise training reduces fat mass and increases lean mass in overweight and obese adults
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34042299/
Time-restricted eating and concurrent exercise training reduces fat mass and increases lean mass in overweight and obese adults
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34042299/
Agree. I notice zero lean body mass loss while fasting.
At least no more than I would just sitting on the couch doing nothing.
At least no more than I would just sitting on the couch doing nothing.
I did a 7 day fast, and I mostly ended up losing fat. While I did not do any scientific measurement, i was able to exercise the same post the 7 day fast and my belly fat came down big time.
Maybe body builders lose lean body mass when they fast, but it does not seem to hold true for the average human.
Maybe body builders lose lean body mass when they fast, but it does not seem to hold true for the average human.
You have mostly lost water to be precise.
As well as muscle.
You need an expensive Dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry scan in order to precisely tell the body mass composition.
You need an expensive Dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry scan in order to precisely tell the body mass composition.
How would you know, without the "expensive" densitometry scan?
My anecdotal experience: I lost weight via alternate day fasting and did indeed shell out the 120 euro that two scans cost me. I lost mainly fat, my lean body mass after 6 months was down 4 pct, within error range I'd assume. I worked out normally through the entire period and even did things like a 200km bike trip during a 72hr fast. (I did a few of those to compensate for not fasting on holidays). Great experience, never felt better tbh.
One thing I think I learned was the exact threshold of power that allowed me to keep burning fat. Its hard to describe the feeling but after doing this for months (over a year by now) I think I know exactly when I can still push and continue on fat, and when I need to slow down to prevent lbm loss. Doing sprints, short intervals etc. would likely cause me to break proteins in the body and indeed be counterproductive - but here more research is probably needed, and individuals will likely have different thresholds.
My anecdotal experience: I lost weight via alternate day fasting and did indeed shell out the 120 euro that two scans cost me. I lost mainly fat, my lean body mass after 6 months was down 4 pct, within error range I'd assume. I worked out normally through the entire period and even did things like a 200km bike trip during a 72hr fast. (I did a few of those to compensate for not fasting on holidays). Great experience, never felt better tbh.
One thing I think I learned was the exact threshold of power that allowed me to keep burning fat. Its hard to describe the feeling but after doing this for months (over a year by now) I think I know exactly when I can still push and continue on fat, and when I need to slow down to prevent lbm loss. Doing sprints, short intervals etc. would likely cause me to break proteins in the body and indeed be counterproductive - but here more research is probably needed, and individuals will likely have different thresholds.
If you can't get a DEXA scan there is an equation published in December of 2021 which approximates it well:
The new equation [%BFNew = 6.083 + (0.143 × SSnew) - (12.058 × sex) - (0.150 × age) - (0.233 × body mass index) + (0.256 × waist) + (0.162 × sex × age)] explained a significant proportion of variance in %BF5C (R2 = 0.775, SEE = 4.0%). Predictors included sum of skinfolds (SSnew, midaxillary, triceps, and thigh) and waist circumference. The new equation cross-validated well against %BF5C when compared with other existing equations, producing a large intraclass correlation coefficient (0.90), small mean bias and limits of agreement (0.4% ± 8.6%), and small measures of error (SEE = 2.5%).
Generalized Equations for Predicting Percent Body Fat from Anthropometric Measures Using a Criterion Five-Compartment Model Zackary S Cicone, Brett S Nickerson 1, Youn-Jeng Choi 2, Clifton J Holmes 3, Bjoern Hornikel 4, Michael V Fedewa 4, Michael R Esco 4 Affiliations expand PMID: 34310492 PMCID: PMC8785250 (available on 2022-12-01) DOI: 10.1249/MSS.0000000000002754
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34310492/
The new equation [%BFNew = 6.083 + (0.143 × SSnew) - (12.058 × sex) - (0.150 × age) - (0.233 × body mass index) + (0.256 × waist) + (0.162 × sex × age)] explained a significant proportion of variance in %BF5C (R2 = 0.775, SEE = 4.0%). Predictors included sum of skinfolds (SSnew, midaxillary, triceps, and thigh) and waist circumference. The new equation cross-validated well against %BF5C when compared with other existing equations, producing a large intraclass correlation coefficient (0.90), small mean bias and limits of agreement (0.4% ± 8.6%), and small measures of error (SEE = 2.5%).
Generalized Equations for Predicting Percent Body Fat from Anthropometric Measures Using a Criterion Five-Compartment Model Zackary S Cicone, Brett S Nickerson 1, Youn-Jeng Choi 2, Clifton J Holmes 3, Bjoern Hornikel 4, Michael V Fedewa 4, Michael R Esco 4 Affiliations expand PMID: 34310492 PMCID: PMC8785250 (available on 2022-12-01) DOI: 10.1249/MSS.0000000000002754
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34310492/
Why would the body shed water instead of tapping into stored fat when there's no external energy coming it?
This is delusional.
This is delusional.
>Maybe body builders lose lean body mass when they fast
Well, highly fit people certainly lose lean body mass when they fast, which you're probably not (even if you're fairly fit)
And bodybuilders DON'T lose fat when they fast because they take supraphysiological doses of hormones (steroids) that prevent the body losing muscle - and usually eat protein throughout their fast too. So not a good example.
And bodybuilders DON'T lose fat when they fast because they take supraphysiological doses of hormones (steroids) that prevent the body losing muscle - and usually eat protein throughout their fast too. So not a good example.
> eat protein throughout their fast too
Aren't these contradictory? If you eat (protein or otherwise) you're not fasting.
Aren't these contradictory? If you eat (protein or otherwise) you're not fasting.
I think they misspoke and what they meant to say was that bodybuilders use a zero/low carb diet, in which case their statement holds true.
Their whole argument was around body builders not losing fat when fasting, so if you're right, this is just irrelevant. No one expects people to lose fat when they're not caloric restricted.
Fasting is not malnutrition. A typical human even lean one has enough fat to survive without food for 30-40 days without significant loss of lean mass. This sets us quite apart of other animals including apes.
One starts to loose lean mass during prolonged calorie deficit which takes months.
One starts to loose lean mass during prolonged calorie deficit which takes months.
As I understand it, based on books such as Faster[1] by Michael Hutchinson, it depends on the intensity of what you do.
At low intensity exercise you can just burn just fat.
The body can only get so much energy from fat in a given time, so at higher intensity levels it will try to get energy from both fat and stored carbohydrates.
Once you run out of easily available carbs it will try to supplement energy from the next available store, which is protein. i.e. muscle.
So this will happen well before you run out of body fat.
You can apparently increase the amount of base energy you can get from fat by training cell mitochondria with lots of low internet exercise.
Eg lots and lots of zone 1 or 2 on the Coggan zone system.
1. http://www.michaelhutchinson.co.uk/faster.html
At low intensity exercise you can just burn just fat.
The body can only get so much energy from fat in a given time, so at higher intensity levels it will try to get energy from both fat and stored carbohydrates.
Once you run out of easily available carbs it will try to supplement energy from the next available store, which is protein. i.e. muscle.
So this will happen well before you run out of body fat.
You can apparently increase the amount of base energy you can get from fat by training cell mitochondria with lots of low internet exercise.
Eg lots and lots of zone 1 or 2 on the Coggan zone system.
1. http://www.michaelhutchinson.co.uk/faster.html
This is actually my understanding of it as well, though I kind of arrived at the conclusion on my own pulling from various sources and experience.
People think about fat as if they have access to it all, but it's a surface area per unit time problem. Like all the chemistry in life, on some level, it's diffusion limited.
What you should be thinking about while fasting is not letting your basal rate/time + exercise expenditure/time exceed your total energy available/time. I got pretty good at estimating this, but I wish there were an easy way to measure it.
Everything is stream processing, not discrete units.
People think about fat as if they have access to it all, but it's a surface area per unit time problem. Like all the chemistry in life, on some level, it's diffusion limited.
What you should be thinking about while fasting is not letting your basal rate/time + exercise expenditure/time exceed your total energy available/time. I got pretty good at estimating this, but I wish there were an easy way to measure it.
Everything is stream processing, not discrete units.
The missing part in your description, to the best of my understanding, is fat to ketone conversion - you don’t use the fat directly, the process takes time, so ketones have to already be circulating when you need them.
It can also explain why ketogenic diets work for many people - if you exercise every few days, your body will maintain sufficient blood ketone level for your exercise days, but unlike glucose, ketones that are not used get peed out eventually (and not stored/converted back to fat).
Couldn’t find anyone knowledgeable enough to confirm I am right, but also no one to tell me I’m obviously wrong - still looking for one of those answers.
It can also explain why ketogenic diets work for many people - if you exercise every few days, your body will maintain sufficient blood ketone level for your exercise days, but unlike glucose, ketones that are not used get peed out eventually (and not stored/converted back to fat).
Couldn’t find anyone knowledgeable enough to confirm I am right, but also no one to tell me I’m obviously wrong - still looking for one of those answers.
I think, to the best of my understanding, most of what you've said is correct. This is also why I always use blood ketone meters rather than urine strips.
Apologies for not including that, I guess I just assumed it was common knowledge? Mea culpa.
Apologies for not including that, I guess I just assumed it was common knowledge? Mea culpa.
But in clinical trials they found that even intermittent fasting leads to LBM loss.
> https://www.hawaii.edu/news/2020/10/09/intermittent-fasting-...
Considering Body Builders don’t fast, I tend to believe the study.
> https://www.hawaii.edu/news/2020/10/09/intermittent-fasting-...
Considering Body Builders don’t fast, I tend to believe the study.
Having done IF while lifting, the issue that stands out to me with this study is that it tested only IF with no advice on exercise or nutrition.
Yes, if you fast without exercise, you will almost certainly lose muscle.
And if you fast without nutritional changes, you likely won't lose much, because IF on its own does not equal a deficit over more than hours at a time.
I gained muscle on IF with ease, and I also lost far more than in their study, with ease.
I'm surprised, given the constraints of the study, that there was an average loss at all.
Yes, if you fast without exercise, you will almost certainly lose muscle.
And if you fast without nutritional changes, you likely won't lose much, because IF on its own does not equal a deficit over more than hours at a time.
I gained muscle on IF with ease, and I also lost far more than in their study, with ease.
I'm surprised, given the constraints of the study, that there was an average loss at all.
>Considering Body Builders don’t fast, I tend to believe the study.
There's entire bodybuilding schools (such as LeanGains) that build on intermittent fasting, and its increasingly more common when it comes to cutting fat. Where did you hear this?
There's entire bodybuilding schools (such as LeanGains) that build on intermittent fasting, and its increasingly more common when it comes to cutting fat. Where did you hear this?
> The study only included recommendations to the timing of food intake and did not provide recommendations for calorie and macronutrient intake or physical activity.
> 116 overweight and obese participants
Yeah I mean IF isn't magic. If you sit in front of netflix and eat three 800cal bags of chips it doesn't matter much if you're doing IF or not.
I'm doing IF for years and go to the gym every other day, most of the time fasted. I made good progress, lost fat, gained muscles, and most importantly I feel amazing.
Eating schedule is only a part of the equation. You still need to eat proper food and exercise.
> 116 overweight and obese participants
Yeah I mean IF isn't magic. If you sit in front of netflix and eat three 800cal bags of chips it doesn't matter much if you're doing IF or not.
I'm doing IF for years and go to the gym every other day, most of the time fasted. I made good progress, lost fat, gained muscles, and most importantly I feel amazing.
Eating schedule is only a part of the equation. You still need to eat proper food and exercise.
The study run for 3 months and people were under calorie deficit, which is typical time scale when the lean mass starts to shrink.
In general intermittent fast is not a good way to loose fat precisely for this point. In Russia there are fasting resorts where people do not eat for 2-3 weeks under medical supervision. Most people do it not to loose weight but try to improve various medical conditions. Those who go there for weight loss typically gain the weight back since they do not change their eating habits.
As for bodybuilders they do intermittent fasting but not to loose fat but to gain muscles. For some people this works as long as they eat sufficient calories.
In general intermittent fast is not a good way to loose fat precisely for this point. In Russia there are fasting resorts where people do not eat for 2-3 weeks under medical supervision. Most people do it not to loose weight but try to improve various medical conditions. Those who go there for weight loss typically gain the weight back since they do not change their eating habits.
As for bodybuilders they do intermittent fasting but not to loose fat but to gain muscles. For some people this works as long as they eat sufficient calories.
Body builders don’t fast therefore fasting reduces lean body mass?
That's controlled by total calories. Fasting improves body composition for diets with the same macros.
More like visceral fat
I am not sure exactly what some people call fasting but I am bewildered by statements "I did 60 days of fasting/it is safe".
Here one can read about the "safety" of ca 60 days hunger strikes. See the section: "People who died on hunger strike"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_Irish_hunger_strike
The oldest one died at age 29.
Bonus: "Other participants in the hunger strike". Column: Reason for ending the strike
One poor guy got a perforated ulcer and internal bleeding after 13 days.
Here one can read about the "safety" of ca 60 days hunger strikes. See the section: "People who died on hunger strike"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_Irish_hunger_strike
The oldest one died at age 29.
Bonus: "Other participants in the hunger strike". Column: Reason for ending the strike
One poor guy got a perforated ulcer and internal bleeding after 13 days.
> bewildered by statements "I did 60 days of fasting/it is safe".
These people are either overweight or even obese, or just lying to you, or lying to themselves (e.g., drinking juice and coffee, or getting calories elsewhere and not counting it). Also, I guarantee they're completely sedentary.
If you're reasonably physically active (especially if you do any weight training) and you're in a prolonged caloric deficit while already being lean, you will lose muscle mass and bone density, and ultimately get injured:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4834845/
These people are either overweight or even obese, or just lying to you, or lying to themselves (e.g., drinking juice and coffee, or getting calories elsewhere and not counting it). Also, I guarantee they're completely sedentary.
If you're reasonably physically active (especially if you do any weight training) and you're in a prolonged caloric deficit while already being lean, you will lose muscle mass and bone density, and ultimately get injured:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4834845/
Apart from the quacks no medical doctor imho will state: 60days fast is completely safe for any 250 pounder at any age and without a medical supervision.
There are a number of differences here that should be noted.
Firstly, as you keenly note, we need to define terms like fasting. The kind of fasting people are doing for extended periods always includes water, but more than that, for an extended fast, it also includes electrolytes, and sometimes other nutrients.
Secondly, 60 days is a very long fast. While people are going to point out cases of people fasting for a year or more, the fact is that those are in the extreme minority. Most people consider a 10 day extended fast to be a very long one. A sixty day fast is far different, and there are studies that show negative effects of very long fasts, rather than "medium length" fasts such as seven days.
Third, I think it's a bit of a mistake to conflate a week long fast (what the post is about) with a 60 day fast.
Fourthly, most of the people talking about having done extended fasts talk about doing it in the same way one might talk about running a race- with practice. You'll see people talking about one meal a day, then a 24 hour fast, 48 hour, 72 hour, and then a week.
That gives the body a chance to adapt to the fasted state. These are health conscious people doing a health conscious thing.
Lastly, though, an ulcer isn't caused by fasting. Most ulcers are caused by infection, which was only discovered later in the 1980s. The kidney obstruction could be made worse by dehydration certainly, but it's still not causal.
People do need to eat, and extended fasts can be very dangerous, but there's such a world of difference here that I think it's not worth discussing.
Firstly, as you keenly note, we need to define terms like fasting. The kind of fasting people are doing for extended periods always includes water, but more than that, for an extended fast, it also includes electrolytes, and sometimes other nutrients.
Secondly, 60 days is a very long fast. While people are going to point out cases of people fasting for a year or more, the fact is that those are in the extreme minority. Most people consider a 10 day extended fast to be a very long one. A sixty day fast is far different, and there are studies that show negative effects of very long fasts, rather than "medium length" fasts such as seven days.
Third, I think it's a bit of a mistake to conflate a week long fast (what the post is about) with a 60 day fast.
Fourthly, most of the people talking about having done extended fasts talk about doing it in the same way one might talk about running a race- with practice. You'll see people talking about one meal a day, then a 24 hour fast, 48 hour, 72 hour, and then a week.
That gives the body a chance to adapt to the fasted state. These are health conscious people doing a health conscious thing.
Lastly, though, an ulcer isn't caused by fasting. Most ulcers are caused by infection, which was only discovered later in the 1980s. The kidney obstruction could be made worse by dehydration certainly, but it's still not causal.
People do need to eat, and extended fasts can be very dangerous, but there's such a world of difference here that I think it's not worth discussing.
Last but not least: ulcers are exacerbated by fasting.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23432987/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23432987/
It's not about the duration but the starting weight and health of a faster. These were underweight / lower end of normal range long term prisoners in the early 80's who died when bodyweights were significantly under 100lbs.
That definitely isn't what anyone is suggesting. The people fasting these days for 50+ days with no ill effects are significantly overweight sometimes on the order of 100+ lbs. They can lose 60 lbs over similar duration which would kill someone underweight but leave them still technically obese.
Someone fasting for health will stop once something starts to feel off unlike hunger strikers who experienced serious declines before death. Sudden death from malnutrition during a fast while feeling fine at a normal range bodyweight isn't really a thing.
That definitely isn't what anyone is suggesting. The people fasting these days for 50+ days with no ill effects are significantly overweight sometimes on the order of 100+ lbs. They can lose 60 lbs over similar duration which would kill someone underweight but leave them still technically obese.
Someone fasting for health will stop once something starts to feel off unlike hunger strikers who experienced serious declines before death. Sudden death from malnutrition during a fast while feeling fine at a normal range bodyweight isn't really a thing.
Really?
Bobby Sands started with 155lbs, died at 95lbs.
The 155lbs for a chap in the 1980s was certainly in the middle range. Check his wiki page: for sure he didn't look anorectic in the picture taken at the age 19.
More importantly:
Seems that we are entering the True Irishman or Scotsman territory:
Fasting 60 days is super safe but apparently only if you started with 300lbs, your weight did not drop "significantly" more than 4lbs below 100, you have no preexisting conditions, take balanced drinks with electrolytes (btw at least some IRA prisoners took water with salt) and you may take some nutrients and call it fasting.
Yes?
The 155lbs for a chap in the 1980s was certainly in the middle range. Check his wiki page: for sure he didn't look anorectic in the picture taken at the age 19.
More importantly:
Seems that we are entering the True Irishman or Scotsman territory:
Fasting 60 days is super safe but apparently only if you started with 300lbs, your weight did not drop "significantly" more than 4lbs below 100, you have no preexisting conditions, take balanced drinks with electrolytes (btw at least some IRA prisoners took water with salt) and you may take some nutrients and call it fasting.
Yes?
You sound like you think you are disagreeing. The prerequisite health and body fat requirements for safely fasting for extended periods is surely obvious.
The photos I have seen of Bobby Sands show him to be taller than his friends and sknny... unusually skinny by modern standards. This person cannot safely lose 60lbs of bodyweight, others can:
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2016/aug/04/bobby-sands-66-...
The photos I have seen of Bobby Sands show him to be taller than his friends and sknny... unusually skinny by modern standards. This person cannot safely lose 60lbs of bodyweight, others can:
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2016/aug/04/bobby-sands-66-...
What can we assume of the general health and condition of prisoners mistreated to such an extent they've embarked on a hunger strike in protest though?
We can check that after 4 years in prison Bobby Sands weighted 155lbs.
Check 5 demands 9f the hunger strike.
Nothing about food or medical treatment.
British prison certainly was no joke (solitary confinement as a punishment i.e) but not exactly a gulag.
Check 5 demands 9f the hunger strike.
Nothing about food or medical treatment.
British prison certainly was no joke (solitary confinement as a punishment i.e) but not exactly a gulag.
As a firm believer in extended water fasting (more than 7 days) i find the comments here fascinating. I see a lot of people posting wanting sources: Go to youtube and search for autophagy.
The research going into this over the last few years is off the charts.
https://www.healthline.com/health/autophagy#:~:text=Autophag...
The research going into this over the last few years is off the charts.
https://www.healthline.com/health/autophagy#:~:text=Autophag...
Define fasting.
At which point is "fasting" simply "not overeating"?
As far as I can tell, the design of the human body takes as a given that a lot of time will be spent without consuming food, perhaps for days at a time.
So, some mechanisms are designed to kick in when you're eating food, and some other mechanisms are designed to kick in when you're not eating food.
By not having any period of time when you're properly hungry, a lot of the body's builtin mechanism never get a proper chance to fully kick in.
So, some mechanisms are designed to kick in when you're eating food, and some other mechanisms are designed to kick in when you're not eating food.
By not having any period of time when you're properly hungry, a lot of the body's builtin mechanism never get a proper chance to fully kick in.
I've got two bad knees, lower back, and neck from wrestling in College. I'm just about to turn 30 but have the disks/joint of a 65+ year old. It is really depressing that stem cells could help but cost so much. I looked into getting out of the country stem cell therapy and its close to 50K+ USD. Insurance doesnt cover any of that.
Here's to hoping that the cost comes down and insurance starts to cover it.
Here's to hoping that the cost comes down and insurance starts to cover it.
I have a bad knee/ankle from landing a jump on a motorcycle wrong. Existence is pain.
I hope soon the doctors can find the source of the pain. Kaiser refused to do anything over the course of years. MRI in a couple weeks once new insurance gets around to approving it. Why do we put up with this in the US? :(
I hope soon the doctors can find the source of the pain. Kaiser refused to do anything over the course of years. MRI in a couple weeks once new insurance gets around to approving it. Why do we put up with this in the US? :(
Come join the https://pnhp.org
Physicians for national health plan. They're actually making moves.
Physicians for national health plan. They're actually making moves.
One meal a day fast is the most convenient way to lose weight I think.
Also, to echo the top commentator, aside from the physical benefits of losing weight; another great effect is the mental clarity that fasting gives since less attention is given to eating and so moving away from living to eat.
Also, sugar drinks is fine I think, and is an easy way to get some energy in moderation.
Also, to echo the top commentator, aside from the physical benefits of losing weight; another great effect is the mental clarity that fasting gives since less attention is given to eating and so moving away from living to eat.
Also, sugar drinks is fine I think, and is an easy way to get some energy in moderation.
Fasting
Nofap
Keto
Cold showers
...
"We go out of our course to make ourselves uncomfortable; the cup of life is not bitter enough to our palate, and we distill superfluous poison to put into it, or conjure up hideous things to frighten ourselves at, which would never exist if we did not make them."
"We go out of our course to make ourselves uncomfortable; the cup of life is not bitter enough to our palate, and we distill superfluous poison to put into it, or conjure up hideous things to frighten ourselves at, which would never exist if we did not make them."
1. Going out of the comfort zone is generally a good idea as long as it's (medically) safe
2. Some of those (cold showers, fasting) have proven benefits. Are you arguing the benefits aren't useful or that all the existing studies are flawed?
There's also 3 of why'd you comment on something if you don't care about it but as I'm doing the same I can't really argue that fully.
2. Some of those (cold showers, fasting) have proven benefits. Are you arguing the benefits aren't useful or that all the existing studies are flawed?
There's also 3 of why'd you comment on something if you don't care about it but as I'm doing the same I can't really argue that fully.
Does anyone else also start to experience heart palpitations after 3 or 4 days of fasting? The heart beats are regular but fast and hard. This interferes with sleep and makes it impossible to go beyond those few days, as it just gets worse. I do drink water during the fasts.
Three things could be happening:
1. The heart is a giant muscle and needs balanced sodium and potassium to function. There are electrolyte blends in the market designed for fasting to help with this.
2. You're insufficiently hydrated because you've reduced your drinking intake or haven't replaced the water you would get in your food itself.
3. The body is in a state of hunger and alertness. Your sympathetic nervous system is ratcheted up in awareness of this and in search for possible food. To calm this down, practice diaphragmatic breathing exercises.
1. The heart is a giant muscle and needs balanced sodium and potassium to function. There are electrolyte blends in the market designed for fasting to help with this.
2. You're insufficiently hydrated because you've reduced your drinking intake or haven't replaced the water you would get in your food itself.
3. The body is in a state of hunger and alertness. Your sympathetic nervous system is ratcheted up in awareness of this and in search for possible food. To calm this down, practice diaphragmatic breathing exercises.
Yes, I get heart palpitations too when I don't take electrolytes. You need a certain ratio of sodium, potassium and magnesium. I also recommend drinking at least 200 ml vegetable juice per day. That doesn't kick you out of ketosis or autophagy.
In all medical supervised fasting clinics they don't allow a pure water fasting. A small dose of carb is highly recommended for absorbing and buffering the electrolytes.
In all medical supervised fasting clinics they don't allow a pure water fasting. A small dose of carb is highly recommended for absorbing and buffering the electrolytes.
Can it be lack of Magnesium? My heart doctor prescribed me Magnesium for heart palpitations and they went away.
Some people fast with a "snake juice" of electrolytes. Maybe that's what your body needs?
Also interesting, is a "fasting-mimicking diet" that is low in methionine:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6816332/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6816332/
Fasting is fine and all, but sugar is a poison. Carry on.
One more reason to become Muslim.
Religious fasting has little to do with the therapeutic ones. For a start, they are too short and are not even 24h. Second, the idea is usually to binge on cakes everyday at sunset.
The old Lenten Black Fast [1] probably applies.
- One meal a day
- No meat, lacticinia, or alcohol allowed in the meal
- Water allowed throughout the day
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Fast
- One meal a day
- No meat, lacticinia, or alcohol allowed in the meal
- Water allowed throughout the day
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Fast
I am a Muslim and deny the second. A lot of us do lose weight in the Ramadan, along with our sins.
Imagine not being able to single out fasting and doing it without getting yourself into a religion. What other things can you not single out and need to delegate the thinking to religion for I wonder?
They were just making a joke.
What happens if I use this drug to switch to burning fat but keep eating carbohydrates? Where do they go?
So poor people are healthier? By poor I refer to third world countries, where people can spend a day or two without eating, not in the West sense where poor means eating junk food.
There a lot of industrial diseases like myopia or bad teeth/jaws that they avoid but in exchange they suffer from different but more severe illnesses due to lack of clean water and healthcare.
All other things being equal: Maybe.
But all other things are not equal, so: No.
But all other things are not equal, so: No.
I did not read the article so I can't give you an educated answer but my gut feeling is that this only works if you add high value food (proteins, nutrients, ...) after the fasting so that your body can then do something useful.
Only taking the food away or adding low quality food will most likely not solve anything
Only taking the food away or adding low quality food will most likely not solve anything
[deleted]
No because these people are often malnourished.
Not read the article, but I have few questions for kind folks who read it.
1. Was the study a human study or mice study?
2. If the study was human, how long should one fast for?
3. If the study was done on mice, what would be the equivalent hours of fasting in humans to observe same benefits? For example, rats fasted for 3 days experience autophagy, but rats would die if fasted for 5 days, so that 3 day cannot be applied to humans without an equivalent inflation of the time frame.
3. Was fasting the trigger or the resultant calorie restriction?
Thanks
1. Was the study a human study or mice study?
2. If the study was human, how long should one fast for?
3. If the study was done on mice, what would be the equivalent hours of fasting in humans to observe same benefits? For example, rats fasted for 3 days experience autophagy, but rats would die if fasted for 5 days, so that 3 day cannot be applied to humans without an equivalent inflation of the time frame.
3. Was fasting the trigger or the resultant calorie restriction?
Thanks
> The researchers found that fasting dramatically improves stem cells’ ability to regenerate, in both aged and young mice.
Need a human study to answer other questions.
Need a human study to answer other questions.
Apart from physiological benefits though, the mental aspect of fasting from my own experience can be quite exciting as well. A 7 day fast was the longest I did so far, but 72h really hit the sweet spot for me. It was like a journey through my mind, I got challenged in very new ways to break the fast and also questioned my purpose in life a lot, as I seemingly live to eat. It was quite shocking to realize how much time I spend during a normal day to: buy food, prepare it, consume, dispose, cleanup etc. The rewards of fasting to me were long phases of absolute clarity and great concentration.