Ask HN: Who Wants to Be Fired? (June 2022)
Each of us have limits as to the things we're willing to put up with at a job. What's taking you near your threshold?
133 comments
I just entered a week of what is called PI planning in SAFe.
What the fuck is going on in the world of software delivery.
100 people has to spend 4 days planing 3 months ahead based on headlines from the business.
I have in my 22 years of professional experience never ever tried anything so shocking.
Fire me. Please
What the fuck is going on in the world of software delivery.
100 people has to spend 4 days planing 3 months ahead based on headlines from the business.
I have in my 22 years of professional experience never ever tried anything so shocking.
Fire me. Please
Oh god.... SAFe is the opposite of agile, and PI planning is for people who don't understand the truth in "plans are useless, planning is essential." It's days and days of planning whose value depends on everything happening exactly as planned. And then, every quarter, reality diverges from the plans, meaning 90% of the PI planning was useless, and people insist on hours of meetings about how to do PI differently so that next time planning will match reality. Rinse and repeat.
And people use the failure of PI planning as an excuse for everything being stressful and chaotic. SAFe is the methodology of choice if you want your organization to work smoothly for the first few weeks of a planning increment and then become progressively more dysfunctional as people freak out and/or give up because it no longer makes sense to do exactly what the plan says. Exactly the opposite of agile.
And people use the failure of PI planning as an excuse for everything being stressful and chaotic. SAFe is the methodology of choice if you want your organization to work smoothly for the first few weeks of a planning increment and then become progressively more dysfunctional as people freak out and/or give up because it no longer makes sense to do exactly what the plan says. Exactly the opposite of agile.
I am probably 95% in line with this, SAFe is mostly terrible, but there are some nuggets in there that I think are good. Mostly around the cadence and checkpoints on progress in delivery. (Yes, we can argue whether some of these things originated with SAFe, but it's how I was originally exposed, so that's how my mental model is mapped.)
- Quarters (every 12 weeks): Big ticket things that should move the business forward. This requires Engineering participation because items like technical debt, system re-architectures, pipeline improvements, etc. should be on the table. - PI (every 3-4 weeks): Light checkin on progress to current items. A ballpark estimate on what can be delivered in the upcoming PI given the current constraints (capacity, quality, etc.). This works out to 3-4 checkpoints per quarter. - Sprint (every 1-2 weeks): Real commitments to tangible requirements are made here. If thorough discovery leads to changes to the ballpark estimates or development is delayed for other reasons, it is communicated at the PI checkpoint and forecasts can be adjusted.
(imo) SAFe is just a solution to problems that may or may not actually exist - eager-beaver middle management-types adopt it chiefly because they think it makes them look good, but also because Product/Engineering teams don't commit-escalate-communicate well.
I encourage folks to take a step back and ignore the specific SAFe guidance, but do consider the value of the inputs & outcomes.
- Quarters (every 12 weeks): Big ticket things that should move the business forward. This requires Engineering participation because items like technical debt, system re-architectures, pipeline improvements, etc. should be on the table. - PI (every 3-4 weeks): Light checkin on progress to current items. A ballpark estimate on what can be delivered in the upcoming PI given the current constraints (capacity, quality, etc.). This works out to 3-4 checkpoints per quarter. - Sprint (every 1-2 weeks): Real commitments to tangible requirements are made here. If thorough discovery leads to changes to the ballpark estimates or development is delayed for other reasons, it is communicated at the PI checkpoint and forecasts can be adjusted.
(imo) SAFe is just a solution to problems that may or may not actually exist - eager-beaver middle management-types adopt it chiefly because they think it makes them look good, but also because Product/Engineering teams don't commit-escalate-communicate well.
I encourage folks to take a step back and ignore the specific SAFe guidance, but do consider the value of the inputs & outcomes.
> Product/Engineering teams don't commit-escalate-communicate well
I'm not sure which way the causality points, maybe you're right and organizations that already have poor communication tend to adopt SAFe, but my experience is that it discourages communication between teams and encourages passive-aggressive irresponsibility. In a healthy organization, anyone responsible for the success of a project (management leadership, project managers, and senior individual contributors) will periodically think, "Next week we will do X, but only if Y is going to be done soon, so I need to check in with the team working on Y," and people constantly keep their finger on the pulse of work relevant to their own. SAFe claims to replace this with process, so people don't do it.
In the company where I work now, there's no plan (I mean, there are various plans and timelines, but they're tools, not totems) and we constantly talk. I can message anyone I want or schedule a quick informal meeting with anyone I want without thinking about the political ramifications. Under SAFe sometimes we needed info from another team and discussed how to approach them, who to ask, how to frame it, etc., and ended up deciding there wasn't a good way and it would be better to make our best guess and not engage with them. A few times I was put in the position of refusing to say how I knew something, because I found a way to get the information I needed to do my job, and I didn't want my source to suffer any consequences from communicating outside the SAFe process.
I'm not sure which way the causality points, maybe you're right and organizations that already have poor communication tend to adopt SAFe, but my experience is that it discourages communication between teams and encourages passive-aggressive irresponsibility. In a healthy organization, anyone responsible for the success of a project (management leadership, project managers, and senior individual contributors) will periodically think, "Next week we will do X, but only if Y is going to be done soon, so I need to check in with the team working on Y," and people constantly keep their finger on the pulse of work relevant to their own. SAFe claims to replace this with process, so people don't do it.
In the company where I work now, there's no plan (I mean, there are various plans and timelines, but they're tools, not totems) and we constantly talk. I can message anyone I want or schedule a quick informal meeting with anyone I want without thinking about the political ramifications. Under SAFe sometimes we needed info from another team and discussed how to approach them, who to ask, how to frame it, etc., and ended up deciding there wasn't a good way and it would be better to make our best guess and not engage with them. A few times I was put in the position of refusing to say how I knew something, because I found a way to get the information I needed to do my job, and I didn't want my source to suffer any consequences from communicating outside the SAFe process.
Damn, that is expensive. 100 ppl x 8hrs x 4d x $150/hr = $480000. A half-million dollars to plan the next 3 months… and that’s assuming those were relatively low-paid people ($100/hr x 50% overhead costs).
It really speaks volumes to how gullible the high level managers who buy into SAFe are - and how good the SAFe consultants are at selling their "method". These people have probably ran the numbers and still somehow believe the investment is worth it in increased efficiency.
Little do they know all the useless planning is probably just hurting them more than helping - the investment has negative value even before subtracting the cost of tied up employee resources. Madness!
Little do they know all the useless planning is probably just hurting them more than helping - the investment has negative value even before subtracting the cost of tied up employee resources. Madness!
SAFe is completely insane. I feel sorry for you. I actually left my previous employer because they adopted SAFe and it essentially made working there as a developer impossible. I wrote some of my thoughts here on HN the week after I had resigned: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26351881
Looking back now, the brutal destruction of our self-organized team had a negative effect on my mental wellbeing, and I have been happy with the decision that I left (eventhough it was painful leaving so many long-time colleagues behind.) These days I do similar work as a contractor for a different company.
BTW in that thread I predicted that the company would abandon SAFe within two years. My old colleagues have told me that by the end of 2021, the actual software development teams were "relieved" of the SAFe process, and apparently went back to their normal more or less self-organized working methods as before. SAFe is now only apparently a tool that the middle managers use to plan their high-level work (LOL).
SAFe lasted about 1.5 years total with the company going "all-in" and investing big time in trainings etc. Probably they would have abandoned SAFe altogether by now but in the "transition" they hired a good roster of SAFe specialists, so I guess they have to keep at least some form of SAFe process going on to not hurt anyone's feelings / lose face on the investment (although the specific C-level whose initiative SAFe was "moved on" already before.) Lots of the SAFe "specialists" have also moved on - most of them back to selling the same snake oil as management consultants to other firms.
Looking back now, the brutal destruction of our self-organized team had a negative effect on my mental wellbeing, and I have been happy with the decision that I left (eventhough it was painful leaving so many long-time colleagues behind.) These days I do similar work as a contractor for a different company.
BTW in that thread I predicted that the company would abandon SAFe within two years. My old colleagues have told me that by the end of 2021, the actual software development teams were "relieved" of the SAFe process, and apparently went back to their normal more or less self-organized working methods as before. SAFe is now only apparently a tool that the middle managers use to plan their high-level work (LOL).
SAFe lasted about 1.5 years total with the company going "all-in" and investing big time in trainings etc. Probably they would have abandoned SAFe altogether by now but in the "transition" they hired a good roster of SAFe specialists, so I guess they have to keep at least some form of SAFe process going on to not hurt anyone's feelings / lose face on the investment (although the specific C-level whose initiative SAFe was "moved on" already before.) Lots of the SAFe "specialists" have also moved on - most of them back to selling the same snake oil as management consultants to other firms.
How is this different from quarterly OKR planning and KPI reporting?
Christ what is PI planning? We're doing something "OKR" meeting related which I have neither the interest nor time to look up the un-abbreviation. Luckily one can Zoom with sound and video off at least...
Yes! One of the greatest advantages of the "Zoom" age (well technically it is Teams for me) is that when there is a big meeting with 10+ attendees that you find completely useless, you can just silently turn off your video, and do something else: clean your room, do the dishes, have a short workout, wait for the meeting to be over while laying on the bed, do some work that you find meaningful, or browse job postings.
If the meeting was in person, I could do none of that, and I'd have an awkward chat with my boss about why I seemed disinterested at the meeting.
If the meeting was in person, I could do none of that, and I'd have an awkward chat with my boss about why I seemed disinterested at the meeting.
This is why work/life balance and mental health improved for remote workers. While remote workers were disengaged during those meetings, they at least felt somewhat productive and had a way to cope. When they are all forced back into the office and can't escape these fiascos their mental health will nose dive and the great resignation will continue until employers "figure it out".
Yes I also just hanged out at home and let the leaders in the team do the talking. Because the proces is so broken here, they don't just talk objectives, they talk super details which is totally useless for people that don't have the same domain knowledge.
And close to nothing is written down, so people will not know what to do when they are done debating.
It's out of this world crazy.
Didn't think I would ever experience such a wild process
And close to nothing is written down, so people will not know what to do when they are done debating.
It's out of this world crazy.
Didn't think I would ever experience such a wild process
In Scrum you have Sprints (~weeks) and Releases (~months), and at the start of each you meet to plan User Stories and Features, respectively, that you want to accomplish during those time frames. SAFe is a formalized version of Scrum of Scrums (multiple Scrum teams working together) and PI (Programatic Increment) is just another name for Release. So PI planning is release planning, but all the scrum teams have to coordinate dependencies (team A needs to complete story X in sprint 2, so team B can use it to complete story Y in sprint 3; teams B and C need to allocate time to design an interface in sprint 1 that they both use in sprint 2, etc), so it has more overhead.
Ours started out taking three full days, and we eventually pruned them down to two full days which was still painful, but mostly productive. I can't imagine four whole days - day 5 would have to be dedicated to drinking.
Ours started out taking three full days, and we eventually pruned them down to two full days which was still painful, but mostly productive. I can't imagine four whole days - day 5 would have to be dedicated to drinking.
Isn't scrum teams having dependencies on other scrum teams a process smell?
At a FAANG company, my manager once made me sit in a 3 hour meeting on a Sunday to plan for projects that weren't even going to start for another 6 months.
I quit soon after.
I quit soon after.
I managed to survive three rounds of PI Planning before going nuts. Wasn't the only reason to leave that company but surely a big pain point.
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At least enjoy the free food and drinks! SAFe is bonkers. Let me guess the field... Automotive?
Green energy. Windmill software
Lol. Sony? Nowhere else on my CV has come close for "the work of work" taking all my time, and only incidentally writing a line of code in between plannings and meetings and SAFe rituals.
I always ask interviewer to see if they use SAFe or not. If they use SAFe, they just don't get it and it means that wrong people are making important decisions in the org.
Just went through our PI planning last week. For those who have experienced it - I feel your pain!
We had to do that exact thing in Boeing some years ago. It's an absurd waste of time.
I used to do a lot of incident response type stuff and I just got tired of everything being on fire 200mph gogogogo all the time. It was already pretty fast-paced and then new management rolled in and decided to 2x the metrics just to do it, and I wasn't the only one with big changes on their linkedin recently.
I realized that everyone and their mother is hiring and decided to scoot off.
Oh, and before [the ordeal] I was doing a lot of travel consulting. If it weren't for [the ordeal] I probably would have quit a lot earlier because the work-life balance was just abysmal.
I realized that everyone and their mother is hiring and decided to scoot off.
Oh, and before [the ordeal] I was doing a lot of travel consulting. If it weren't for [the ordeal] I probably would have quit a lot earlier because the work-life balance was just abysmal.
Yup that's what happened to me at my last job. The stress and lack of sleep it caused me just wasn't worth it and it showed no signs of ever getting better. When I put in my notice they insisted that all these problems were going to disappear any day now but luckily I've been doing this long enough to know better.
Same here.
To this day I still don’t understand how some businesses expect devs to troubleshoot in production in the middle of the night, and fix underlying issues the morning after.
To this day I still don’t understand how some businesses expect devs to troubleshoot in production in the middle of the night, and fix underlying issues the morning after.
I kinda get it, and I don’t wanna justify pointless pressuress - you are paid top percentile - there’s some expectation to work accordingly. The remaining 99% of population would do anything for such money.
One can only work 24/7 for so long, regardless of the money.
100%, happened recently to me. IR role with a SaaS vendor-focused IT strategy is pure chaos right now. Every incident of note came from these companies, and the best you can do is proactive safeguards and hope their IR team will call.
Enterprise security is perma-employment, but at a high sanity cost and uses a sense of urgency not really warranted as because if it's always bad, it's not actually bad.
I knew enough coding and comp sci to scoot off into product security and have never been happier.
Enterprise security is perma-employment, but at a high sanity cost and uses a sense of urgency not really warranted as because if it's always bad, it's not actually bad.
I knew enough coding and comp sci to scoot off into product security and have never been happier.
I’m curios to understand why everything was constantly on fire. Was it too many deployments bringing down stuff? Or flaky infrastructure?
A mix of security incidents and operational issues at various clients. We don't develop any of the stuff we take care of.
For a sec there I couldn't tell if you were a software dev, or if you put out actual fires for a living.
I complete a ticket, now I've got to spend a day writing another ticket about how it's supposed to be deployed so any regular jack off can deploy it. Then I've got to find a "champion" (aka. a middle manager) to "champion" the ticket I wrote about the ticket. Then I have to notify several Slack channels about it, wait a bit in case someone makes a stink, then finally press "deploy" in Jenkins.
It's a Modern Stack™ – cookie cutter, untestable locally, horde of Golang services on Kubernetes pulling and pushing to various cloud services. Of course, it's ad-tech and for a company that seems to be the media equivalent of a Jerry Springer show.
It's a Modern Stack™ – cookie cutter, untestable locally, horde of Golang services on Kubernetes pulling and pushing to various cloud services. Of course, it's ad-tech and for a company that seems to be the media equivalent of a Jerry Springer show.
I hated Ad tech. Wishing you the best.
I've been, for the last two years, asking my teams business leadership to open up remote hiring and start championing higher salaries for my team mates. My team works on internal infrastructure and we build tools and capabilities that are unlike many/most teams at my company, every one of which are on the critical path. One of the baseline requirements of this team is that engineers pick up four different working languages for our products (which are software development kits, CLIs, and some backends).
I have now lost all of the original engineers I joined the team with (minus one who was promoted), my team of five has shrunk to two (twice), and management has been riding "people only use us for counter offers" (which can't be true because we're several orders of magnitude under our peer groups in competitive offers - ask me how I know). I'm now trying to interview, handle incidents, develop features, and release patches with the help of one other engineer.
Please, for the love of god, take me out back and fire me like Old Yeller.
I have now lost all of the original engineers I joined the team with (minus one who was promoted), my team of five has shrunk to two (twice), and management has been riding "people only use us for counter offers" (which can't be true because we're several orders of magnitude under our peer groups in competitive offers - ask me how I know). I'm now trying to interview, handle incidents, develop features, and release patches with the help of one other engineer.
Please, for the love of god, take me out back and fire me like Old Yeller.
Freelance clients who think that meetings don’t “count” as work and thus shouldn’t be invoiced.
Obviously it’s up to me to fire these clients, but still…
Obviously it’s up to me to fire these clients, but still…
It's not a bad idea to give free meetings and charge extra for normal hours.
It also allows you to give free intro and consultations, subsidized by existing clients.
Architects and lawyers (even a few doctors) frequently do this and it makes for a smooth way of onboarding new customers - I'm glad I'm not paying just for some basic info and I don't mind paying a bit more once I get the service.
It also allows you to give free intro and consultations, subsidized by existing clients.
Architects and lawyers (even a few doctors) frequently do this and it makes for a smooth way of onboarding new customers - I'm glad I'm not paying just for some basic info and I don't mind paying a bit more once I get the service.
Its one thing if those meetings are for meeting a new client or discussing a new project with an existing one, but it is another thing altogether for (eg) weekly hour+ long status meetings.
^^ This. One of the biggest ways to boost billings is to be consistently -- even relentlessly -- easy to do business with. That applies to billing and time tracking as well.
Tightly scope, fix a fee against that scope and set your rate high enough that you can accommodate dumb meetings, the occasional on-site, etc.
When I was consulting full-time, I never even charged for travel because that removed a potential objection from out-of-market clients. But my rate? It was at the upper end of the range.
Tightly scope, fix a fee against that scope and set your rate high enough that you can accommodate dumb meetings, the occasional on-site, etc.
When I was consulting full-time, I never even charged for travel because that removed a potential objection from out-of-market clients. But my rate? It was at the upper end of the range.
What? Is this really happening?
I am relatively high up in the eng org for a medium-sized company that has a fair amount of natural churn in our userbase. The past 2 years or so, our revenue has been declining and at first it was hand-waved away as COVID-related, but now people are starting to try to figure out why.
The reason is blindingly obvious - our new user input has dropped to multi-year lows and churn has stayed constant. For some reason, people are convinced it is something else, and we've had endless meetings about it. I am constantly being asked to pull up more and more contorted reports to answer people's pet theories about what is going on, none of which make sense, but we spend forever on them.
Eventually if you torture enough data, you'll find something, I guess. But it feels odd to overlook the things that are well-supported by data and make intuitive sense as well. It is like going into the ER and complaining that you feel lightheaded and when they notice your left arm has been severed and blood is spurting out, they rush to treat it, but you instead say "I had a lot of bread this morning, maybe I'm sensitive to gluten.. Can we test that first?"
We do not have basic operational metrics around things like signup conversion and whenever I've tried to draw attention to those, it devolves into trying to create a dashboard with thousands of mostly useless metrics instead. The last time I tried to get everyone to focus on collecting a few operational metrics at first, I got shouted down and told we didn't want to limit anything upfront, and I have sort of checked out of those meetings ever since.
No raises/bonuses this year and everyone was forced back to the office. I'm torn between being more and more worried about losing people and being worried about them being left in a tough spot here as things get worse.
The reason is blindingly obvious - our new user input has dropped to multi-year lows and churn has stayed constant. For some reason, people are convinced it is something else, and we've had endless meetings about it. I am constantly being asked to pull up more and more contorted reports to answer people's pet theories about what is going on, none of which make sense, but we spend forever on them.
Eventually if you torture enough data, you'll find something, I guess. But it feels odd to overlook the things that are well-supported by data and make intuitive sense as well. It is like going into the ER and complaining that you feel lightheaded and when they notice your left arm has been severed and blood is spurting out, they rush to treat it, but you instead say "I had a lot of bread this morning, maybe I'm sensitive to gluten.. Can we test that first?"
We do not have basic operational metrics around things like signup conversion and whenever I've tried to draw attention to those, it devolves into trying to create a dashboard with thousands of mostly useless metrics instead. The last time I tried to get everyone to focus on collecting a few operational metrics at first, I got shouted down and told we didn't want to limit anything upfront, and I have sort of checked out of those meetings ever since.
No raises/bonuses this year and everyone was forced back to the office. I'm torn between being more and more worried about losing people and being worried about them being left in a tough spot here as things get worse.
I'm not sure what my boss does. He could be a deep-fake AI Zoom bot, only existing for our weekly 1:1 calls and I don't think anything would be different.
Also the principal engineer on my team insists on well optimized solutions for new features when I just don't think it will matter. And it would take the same amount of time to implement later as it does now, except we'd have more understanding of the problem then.
Also the principal engineer on my team insists on well optimized solutions for new features when I just don't think it will matter. And it would take the same amount of time to implement later as it does now, except we'd have more understanding of the problem then.
> He could be a deep-fake AI Zoom bot, only existing for our weekly 1:1 calls and I don't think anything would be different.
Sorry dude I got really into my animation side project and just wanted to see if I could pick up one of these extra wfh 9-5 salaries the WSJ keeps saying are out there. Things spiraled.
Sorry dude I got really into my animation side project and just wanted to see if I could pick up one of these extra wfh 9-5 salaries the WSJ keeps saying are out there. Things spiraled.
Sorry, that principal engineer sucks. You are correct to not pre-optimize. Just tell him to google "the first rule of optimization"
Agree. Creating very optimized features is rarely achievable in an agile way. It will take so long before the user can see any value, and maybe they won’t like it in the end
Haven’t been able to do work all day because policy dictates that we must do all work on a VM that we RDP into. Thing is, remote computers sometimes go down, and today, all of our VMs are down. I’ve tried bringing up the issue but everyone seems to either not care/want me to fix it myself by knocking on the right doors and pushing the issue to leadership. But I don’t want to do all that, I’m a developer, and I just want my work environment to work for me, not against me. And that’s just the tip of the iceberg. Sigh. Should’ve got out early, but I liked the pay and flexibility. It’s not worth it though.
My problems aren’t extreme as yours but for the last couple weeks, we’ve been having niggling, and almost nonstop environment issues. It’s hard to get anything done or commit code when things beyond my control keep breaking :(
This happens all the time. Leadership wants us to keep developing new features while ignoring the foundational issues that cause us to keep taking 1 step forward and 2 steps back. My condolences; it's a frustrating experience for sure, but we'll get through it.
Took > a month off after being burned out by a previous corp. It did wonders for my mental health and gave me time to learn a lot of fun stuff.
I already had a new job lined up, but I highly recommend saving up a bit of cash reserves to do this.
During this time I also moved to a new state, signed up for sailing classes and read several technical books. Way better than sitting in useless meetings and not growing (again, if you can afford it, do it)
I already had a new job lined up, but I highly recommend saving up a bit of cash reserves to do this.
During this time I also moved to a new state, signed up for sailing classes and read several technical books. Way better than sitting in useless meetings and not growing (again, if you can afford it, do it)
I am doing the same thing, work felt pointless, just like you I was sitting in useless meetings and not growing, remote working made it worse. I got so depressed and stressed for nothing. Now I've been off for two months doing all sorts of fun coding stuff, and I feel like a new man.
Too many big corps hiring developers for no reason, too many bullsh*t jobs (RIP David Graeber) that stifle our ability to enjoy life. We may get paid really well but for some reason, attending useless meetings and reacting to slack notifications and outlook pings kill my energy.
Too many big corps hiring developers for no reason, too many bullsh*t jobs (RIP David Graeber) that stifle our ability to enjoy life. We may get paid really well but for some reason, attending useless meetings and reacting to slack notifications and outlook pings kill my energy.
This resonates with me. Waiting for people to message me. I have had so many issues trying to figure this one out. Zoom fatigue, slack fatigue, etc., etc. Maybe that's all it is just killing my energy.
What do you sail? I've been sailing since I was 10 and I've been teaching dinghy sailing for 17 years now (weekend volunteer gig, not my main job)
That’s awesome! I haven’t started yet, just signed up! Super excited
Sounds cool! What did you read?
Distributed Services in Go was incredible and hands on. I read Network programming in Go as well along with The Go Programming Language. Less technical I read Pragmatic Thinking by Andy Hunt I believe the name was, which was cool to get inspired in how to organize my thoughts as an engineer.
I also read some fiction - old man and the sea.
I also read some fiction - old man and the sea.
Colleague got laid off a month ago, but I'm still here. He has 3 months off over the summer before looking for work again. I haven't had a break more than 10 days since college, I'm super jealous.
Companies are usually okay with people taking unpaid leave. Tell your manager "I'd like to take a 3 month unpaid sabbatical to do $fun, would July - Sep work okay?"
Companies are not usually ok with this. Do not ask for a 3 month sabbatical unless you are already about to quit. Plenty of companies would consider firing you on the spot.
Yeah; they're paying you for the work you do. Even unpaid, it still leaves this gaping hole in what they need done. They won't be able to find someone to pitch in for 3 months for any sort of skilled work, and they actually will still be on the hook for your benefits. The paid part for many companies is almost immaterial; if they'll let you have unpaid time off, they'll let you have paid time off. If they won't let you have paid time off, they won't let you have unpaid time off.
Even as a manager, it's easier for me to let someone have one day off a week PTO, with a wink and a nod, than it is to formally get someone to work 80% hours. And that barely is perceptible to upper leadership.
Even as a manager, it's easier for me to let someone have one day off a week PTO, with a wink and a nod, than it is to formally get someone to work 80% hours. And that barely is perceptible to upper leadership.
I recall hearing another firm that did sabbaticals usually meant the employee was just getting ready to leave. People would spend a few months doing some travelling, relaxing, leetcode and interviewing - with safe fall back in case they didn't get anything.
Our firm has a stipulation in the sabbatical wherein one would forfeit their severance / payout if they leave within one year of returning from sabbatical.
You're probably right in that most of those employees are itching to leave already, but financially it would make more sense just quit than take a 2 month sabbatical and then lose a larger payout.
You're probably right in that most of those employees are itching to leave already, but financially it would make more sense just quit than take a 2 month sabbatical and then lose a larger payout.
A lot (if not most) tech companies provide 2-6 months of paternity leave. How do they manage to fill this gaping hole?
So three answers there -
First, most tech companies provide -paid- paternity leave. Which was my point. The burden on most companies isn't the pay for that period of time, it's the loss of capacity.
Second, the companies that object to that loss of capacity often either misunderstand the nature of the work, or have built their teams without any slack and so have set themselves up for failure. In the former, the teams are fine with the person going out even though management doesn't like it; in the latter they aren't, which is why legally mandated parental leave is so important, since otherwise, as we've seen, a badly run company will make it so you can't take time off.
Third, parental leave tends not to affect multiple members of a team at once. PTO and UTO can. Having too open a policy can lead to half a team being gone for a month, in such a way context doesn't transfer well and actually costs the team a whole month, which will have a lot more effect on productivity than one person being gone for a a couple of months. Obviously you can still have a policy that allows people to do it, but it requires thoughtfulness on the part of someone to ensure it still works out. Again, pulling from example, the big pushback I had to having a person formally reduce their hours by 20% is "what happens if multiple people on the team ask for that?" and that's also why it's easier and less risky to the business to have the person take a day off every week, paid. It means that it can be more easily managed if others taking simultaneous time off is a problem, since pay isn't involved (i.e., you can ask the individual to return to 100% hours until everyone else is done with their vacation, say, and then return to 80%, without having their pay also having to seesaw, which is a *process*)
First, most tech companies provide -paid- paternity leave. Which was my point. The burden on most companies isn't the pay for that period of time, it's the loss of capacity.
Second, the companies that object to that loss of capacity often either misunderstand the nature of the work, or have built their teams without any slack and so have set themselves up for failure. In the former, the teams are fine with the person going out even though management doesn't like it; in the latter they aren't, which is why legally mandated parental leave is so important, since otherwise, as we've seen, a badly run company will make it so you can't take time off.
Third, parental leave tends not to affect multiple members of a team at once. PTO and UTO can. Having too open a policy can lead to half a team being gone for a month, in such a way context doesn't transfer well and actually costs the team a whole month, which will have a lot more effect on productivity than one person being gone for a a couple of months. Obviously you can still have a policy that allows people to do it, but it requires thoughtfulness on the part of someone to ensure it still works out. Again, pulling from example, the big pushback I had to having a person formally reduce their hours by 20% is "what happens if multiple people on the team ask for that?" and that's also why it's easier and less risky to the business to have the person take a day off every week, paid. It means that it can be more easily managed if others taking simultaneous time off is a problem, since pay isn't involved (i.e., you can ask the individual to return to 100% hours until everyone else is done with their vacation, say, and then return to 80%, without having their pay also having to seesaw, which is a *process*)
They don't fill it. Everyone knows it's because of the baby they have to do some extra work, but it's OK cause baby's are cute and it's not seen as some ego trip sabbatical where someone is trying to find himself on Fiji while others work their backs off.
If you have an ok relationship with your manager, I don't think it would hurt to run it by them. I've seen several engineers pull this sort of thing off over the years. As a manager myself, if one of my engineers who has been with the company for a while came to me asking for this, I would definitely support them. In this climate, the alternative is that they will probably quit entirely which would be a much larger loss.
Back in the 1990s I worked at an investment bank that offered a paid 3 month sabbatical after 10 years of service, and then every 5 years afterwards. I don't quite remember the specifics but that was the gist of it. This was on top of normal PTO. They didn't tell you what to do with the time, but encouraged doing some deliberate personal growth.
It was a rather uncommon benefit at the time.
It was a rather uncommon benefit at the time.
This is standard in Australia (Long Service Leave). The exact terms change from state to state but usually similar to what you have described (e.g. 2 months after the first 10 years, then 1 month every 5 years).
Now thats some messed up environment to start with, I could do such thing in any of the companies I've worked in last 18 years (cca 6). The worst to expect would be no. Quitting in this case should be a nice plus if one has experience to offer on the market afterwards.
I myself asked and got it, went backpacking 2x in himalayas each time for 3 months, and came back a different, better person. Still riding the wave that experience brought. I dont care about money lost due to this, at the end its just a number that wouldnt change anything in my life. The younger to do this the better.
I myself asked and got it, went backpacking 2x in himalayas each time for 3 months, and came back a different, better person. Still riding the wave that experience brought. I dont care about money lost due to this, at the end its just a number that wouldnt change anything in my life. The younger to do this the better.
"The younger to do this the better. "
It helps, being healthy, but you are allmost never too old for travelling and new experiences.
Too many people are just existing and not living. Money is important, especially when you do not have it, but you cannot take your money with you, when you leave. And sure you can pass it on. But in my family a great drama is now happening, because of the money of the grandparents and how to split it up (one of them is even still alive).
My grandmother probably should have "wasted" more of it on her travels. (but she did travel until she could not walk anymore)
It helps, being healthy, but you are allmost never too old for travelling and new experiences.
Too many people are just existing and not living. Money is important, especially when you do not have it, but you cannot take your money with you, when you leave. And sure you can pass it on. But in my family a great drama is now happening, because of the money of the grandparents and how to split it up (one of them is even still alive).
My grandmother probably should have "wasted" more of it on her travels. (but she did travel until she could not walk anymore)
I think either of these extremes are too general to be helpful. Of course some companies are ok with that, it's something someone's likely to resign over (even if not immediately) so better to grant it if possible than lose someone and go through hiring and training cost to replace them.
Also 'would consider firing you on the spot' is very location dependent, that's not even legal everywhere. Even where it is surely it's a bit extreme - 'lol, no' will do.
Also 'would consider firing you on the spot' is very location dependent, that's not even legal everywhere. Even where it is surely it's a bit extreme - 'lol, no' will do.
I was burned out on start ups and wanted to join a larger company that had more support and a work life balance. I effectively joined a start-up within a larger company and have worked insane hours trying to help push out their V1 product with one other engineer. I pushed back on the hours and subsequently have been screamed at by HR for refusing to regularly start at 6am and work 70 hour weeks - they attempted to make me quit so they wouldn't have to pay me severance (I declined - said if they weren't satisfied with me they can fire me). Now that the V1 is out things /have/ gotten better work-wise, but almost in a completely opposite way where now we have to deal with compliance and I need approval from the technical manager just to sneeze. I know upper-management doesn't like me because I was a squeaky wheel (I even championed the other engineer on the team to threaten to quit to get a raise) and it's just a weird situation. I'm definitely not getting any kind of raise from this company and they for sure don't care about my growth (or any of their employees really). I've been trying to make it at least a year (coming close) before looking elsewhere for my resume's sake but it's been hell at times and I feel like I've been at this company for 2+ years. Even with the recent slow-down in hours, I would love to get fired, take a couple months off, and deal with some personal health issues while studying for the next gig.
Just quit. Life is too short and as you get older, money is supposed to work for you, not the other way around.
But my family is used to living indoors and eating food every day.
"What is it with you kids? Every other day it's 'Food, food, food'" -- Bender
One could get a new job _before_ they quit.
I am comfortable with my job situation, but sometimes I day dream about being fired just so I have a good excuse to take 6mo to a year off of work.
Consider taking a longish holiday (like 3 weeks)? If at the end of it you don’t want to come back, quit. But that might be long enough to scratch the itch and feel refreshed.
Easy to say when you're confident you can get a job that's just as good as what you have. Fact is, I am not. The ads I read these days for IT positions all look terrible.
"Those who trade freedom for security will loose both in the end"
But dramatic quotes aside, since I have kids myself, I am leaning towards security, too. But I feel that this has indeed been blocking me a lot and I felt stagnating. The world is big and full of opportunities, but only if you go out and dare to look at them.
So I do recommend at least a long holiday ;)
But dramatic quotes aside, since I have kids myself, I am leaning towards security, too. But I feel that this has indeed been blocking me a lot and I felt stagnating. The world is big and full of opportunities, but only if you go out and dare to look at them.
So I do recommend at least a long holiday ;)
I'm working in a dysfunctional team for several months now, every one wants to solve problems his way. Waiting for my contract to finish to hit the door. Bought a farm lately where I spend my free time and money. This brings me back to sanity every week-end. Nature heals, you just need to visit her often.
Just started a new job. Last place had people without technical or domain knowledge trying to lead a project that really needed both of those. New place seems much better.
Also the new place only wants me on site when there's a specific need, not 'just because'. I hear from a former colleague that they interviewed for my replacement, offered the job to someone and he turned them down because he's not interested in being on site just because either.
Also the new place only wants me on site when there's a specific need, not 'just because'. I hear from a former colleague that they interviewed for my replacement, offered the job to someone and he turned them down because he's not interested in being on site just because either.
About four years ago I started pushing for MFA for everyone. Two years ago we finally got approved to enable it for all staff. Last year we got approval for all students.
Now the CEO wants us to remove MFA because students are quitting over this (although everyone else I talk to hasn't heard a single student quit from it). I have to find legislation that requires MFA or he will ask to remove it.
I'm thinking this will be the hill I die on...
Now the CEO wants us to remove MFA because students are quitting over this (although everyone else I talk to hasn't heard a single student quit from it). I have to find legislation that requires MFA or he will ask to remove it.
I'm thinking this will be the hill I die on...
I’d quit tomorrow if my company offered a decent severance package. I’m super burned out and with attrition and hiring freezes, I’m stuck with double the workload. I wake up in the middle of the night stressing and full of anxiety about going to work. I despise going to work on Mondays due to the slog of meetings all day long. Writing software used to be fun and I’d do it after hours as a hobby. Now, I can’t stand the thought and just hope I can get 3-5 more years in the industry before I bail out for good.
Just a small tip for Mondays. I stopped going to the gym on Mondays and essentially got rid of any miserable activities for the evening, clearing it up.
I still dread Mondays, just a little less because I know after work I can just relax and cook a nice meal.
I’ve cut out anything extra on Mondays. I’ve kept my exercise routine in the morning because it keeps me sane.
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Another week of releasing features and changing specs 2 hours before they're supposed to be shown to the public in a presentation.
Me. Just want a good severance package. Already been planning for it and going to hopefully get them to convert. I know what buttons to push.
Just start calling management out in larger meetings. ;) Making it clear that people don’t know what they’re doing tends to really send you out on the “not a team player” track.
Just start calling management out in larger meetings. ;) Making it clear that people don’t know what they’re doing tends to really send you out on the “not a team player” track.
Churn. I've had 4 managers in 6 months. I'm ready to go consulting because at this rate I never have the same colleagues for more than a few months anyway, and I'll get paid more.
Just waiting for that RSU cliff, or redundancy. Whatever comes first.
Just waiting for that RSU cliff, or redundancy. Whatever comes first.
I am a technical co-founder and I can't wait to fire and replace myself with someone who is better than me so that I can go and do [another thing over there that's on fire].
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I more or less have a no show job. I am a programmer but for a private company whose business is entertainment. About 5 years ago I came up with something that traceably earned the owner millions. The owner/CEO loves me but I report directly to him with no other co-workers so a bit hard to "move up" I get paid 150k a year to work maybe 40 (flexible) hours a month? For the last two years I've pursued side projects (more artistic than business) but haven't reached the brake even point.
I've thought about leaving many times but it always feels like best case scenario I'd maybe get a 10%ish salary bump but one that is way more demanding. I know deep down this is bad for the long term but also hard to give up such a nice lifestyle especially when I've been able to fill it with other pursuits that were fulfilling.
I've thought about leaving many times but it always feels like best case scenario I'd maybe get a 10%ish salary bump but one that is way more demanding. I know deep down this is bad for the long term but also hard to give up such a nice lifestyle especially when I've been able to fill it with other pursuits that were fulfilling.
How's it bad for the long term, you have a fantastic low stress job.
If this really earned the company millions, maybe you could negotiate with the CEO where you start a new joint venture or something.
150k a year is not bad money, outside of fang, that's actually closer to the top of the market.
If this really earned the company millions, maybe you could negotiate with the CEO where you start a new joint venture or something.
150k a year is not bad money, outside of fang, that's actually closer to the top of the market.
I think the hesitation is that your skills might atrophy as well as your ability to work in non-chill environments, in case it becomes necessary to move on in the future. Company could go under, get acquired etc etc
>I think the hesitation is that your skills might atrophy
Sounds like OP has more opportunity than the average person to keep skills up to date on company time.
Sounds like OP has more opportunity than the average person to keep skills up to date on company time.
True, but not the support of colleagues and work that puts it into practice.
Reading about Foobars at Scale isn't the same as working on them at Netflix or wherever. (Even if you try to put what you read into practice and it's somehow free/cheap to deploy at massive scale and load test it, it's still not the same.)
Reading about Foobars at Scale isn't the same as working on them at Netflix or wherever. (Even if you try to put what you read into practice and it's somehow free/cheap to deploy at massive scale and load test it, it's still not the same.)
This is reasonable, though on the flipside, the commenter could also become stuck in a role at a large corporation where either the work is repetitive, or the skills are non-transferable to other companies (i.e. the work is highly specific to internal tools not used elsewhere), with no on-the-job time to improve one’s skills.
You’re right that conditions could be far better for skill improvement, though having paid free time is also a great environment (e.g. for potentially earning a graduate degree online from a reputable institution).
You’re right that conditions could be far better for skill improvement, though having paid free time is also a great environment (e.g. for potentially earning a graduate degree online from a reputable institution).
I agree and wouldn't turn such a position down :') - I just wanted to point it that it's not a completely rosy skill-building scenario. Depends also on what you want to be learning, and how you learn I suppose. (E.g. I think I learn best from textbooks, at least as a first step, so I might fare better than someone who learns better with instruction, or less theoretical more hands-on stuff.)
> as well as your ability to work in non-chill environments
This is a real thing, at least for me personally. I've been self-employed for the last 4 years and have been lucky enough to live a very cushy life. I make twice as much now than any job I had in the past, but all my income is more or less passive and has nothing to do with how much I work. That being said, I know my current situation won't last won't last forever and every so often I get pretty stressed out at the idea of having to go back to a regular job. As a result I probably work 40-50 hours a week on other projects trying to find something else that will 'stick' in case my current income source disappears. It's still cushy in the sense that I get to pick and choose when I work and what I work on, but the thought of going back to a full time job, or god forbid an office, is pretty stressful.
This is a real thing, at least for me personally. I've been self-employed for the last 4 years and have been lucky enough to live a very cushy life. I make twice as much now than any job I had in the past, but all my income is more or less passive and has nothing to do with how much I work. That being said, I know my current situation won't last won't last forever and every so often I get pretty stressed out at the idea of having to go back to a regular job. As a result I probably work 40-50 hours a week on other projects trying to find something else that will 'stick' in case my current income source disappears. It's still cushy in the sense that I get to pick and choose when I work and what I work on, but the thought of going back to a full time job, or god forbid an office, is pretty stressful.
I was once in a similar position as handmodel, for about two years, and absolutely terrified that my skills would atrophy. But now I realize that was just fear-driven and everything cycles, or is replaced, every five to ten years. So if you can skip one of those cycles you can avoid wasting a lot of effort.
That is sorta how I hope it gets resolved. I do think I'm a quick learner, still. My job sounds extremely impressive on paper though when it comes to nuts and bolts I feel like I have atrophied for several years.
I do feel like my skills have atrophied. I've def taught myself some skillsets over the years - I love to learn - but mostly things that seem fun/interesting/challenging and not things that would transfer into a similar paying job.
Thank you. This is why I have not quit but why I responded to this thread of being "fired". I feel like it would make the decision for me and be a relief and work out in the long term. Just no time in the short term has it appealed enough to me to pull the trigger.
I do the occasional job searching - but not a ton. And my network feels smaller than it was when I started the job.
I do the occasional job searching - but not a ton. And my network feels smaller than it was when I started the job.
Why not a paying, small-scale technical side project to keep your skills up?
(This is an actual question. I really want to hear your answer, no matter what it is, as I am in a similar-ish boat.)
(This is an actual question. I really want to hear your answer, no matter what it is, as I am in a similar-ish boat.)
I probably should. I think it has been hard for me to find one that is part-time and worthwhile.
I taught myself circuit design/CAD/3d modeling over the last couple years since I've been doing some amateur product design. I feel like I've made progress but also this has consumed a lot of my spare intellectual time and although I had a few people reach out to me after seeing my amateur projects online have not made any formal progress into the business.
I taught myself circuit design/CAD/3d modeling over the last couple years since I've been doing some amateur product design. I feel like I've made progress but also this has consumed a lot of my spare intellectual time and although I had a few people reach out to me after seeing my amateur projects online have not made any formal progress into the business.
That's a dream job. You could work remotely on a regular job and keep this one.
I’ve had similar situations and I empathize with you. I like to “own” things and build and feel excited about what I’m involved in. Collecting money for being alive and sharing wisdom sometimes when called upon leaves me very depressed. Everyone says “what a great job! Do whatever you want!” But what I want to do isn’t a side gig, I enjoy earth changing adventures in building amazing stuff that’s really important and hasn’t been done before. I enjoy the excitement of inventing new things as I fall asleep. I don’t get that from side projects.
Conversely I enjoy throwing myself into an empty pool head first and it leads to burnout and high stress levels that impact my health. So I swing between these poles in my career.
Conversely I enjoy throwing myself into an empty pool head first and it leads to burnout and high stress levels that impact my health. So I swing between these poles in my career.
I relate to that. I have some personal side projects that I enjoy though I worry they may not be sustainable if I start to have a family. Before this job I very much had a job I had complete ownership over and really loved it - even though it was not very well paying.
I'll take your position if you decide you want to leave.
It's a great problem to have. I think many of us here are in a similar position. Nice comfy jobs, well paid with no chance of promotion. I've been at mine for over a decade. I know it's going to be bad when its over, however there is also the real possibility of this position lasting until I retire.
I think you may be under estimating luck. Maybe you are not underemployed, maybe you are overly lucky?
If that is the case, then let it ride!
I think you may be under estimating luck. Maybe you are not underemployed, maybe you are overly lucky?
If that is the case, then let it ride!
Ultimately that's close to what I'm doing! Not jumping ship until something finds my way that is definitely better.
I think I "want to be fired" because it would take some of the stress of the decision away from me. My girlfriend makes slightly more than me now - even though years ago I made about twice as her - and I admit I feel some pressure to keep up.
I think I "want to be fired" because it would take some of the stress of the decision away from me. My girlfriend makes slightly more than me now - even though years ago I made about twice as her - and I admit I feel some pressure to keep up.
> know deep down this is bad for the long term
It’s bad for your sense of self-worth, even if it’s not objectively a bad thing.
One day you might ask yourself “Where would I be if I went all-in on something exciting rather than just putting 10% effort into my work for all those years?”
It’s bad for your sense of self-worth, even if it’s not objectively a bad thing.
One day you might ask yourself “Where would I be if I went all-in on something exciting rather than just putting 10% effort into my work for all those years?”
That is a terrible way to live your life. If a person has interests they should pursue them, not act out of fear that one day they will be called to judgment.
Do some contracting on the side in an area you find interesting that would flex your tech skills?
If youre only doing 40 hrs a month, finding a contract for 2 days a week or something would add workload, but ideally something you'd enjoy
If youre only doing 40 hrs a month, finding a contract for 2 days a week or something would add workload, but ideally something you'd enjoy
Where would one find these types of contracts?
Look out on the monthly threads here and reach out asking if they're open to it.
Build your network through previous jobs or events and then sometimes they reach out to you or you can reach out to them and ask.
Not super helpful sorry, but they definitely exist.
Build your network through previous jobs or events and then sometimes they reach out to you or you can reach out to them and ask.
Not super helpful sorry, but they definitely exist.
I'm also curious about how to get these kinds of contracts
Keep this job.
love these first world problems. enjoy :)
How about getting the additional full time but potentially demanding job?
Negotiate a percentage of profits on your next venture with the company.
this is epic enjoy life build cool things and study or game all day
I have been building a lot of cool stuff the last couple years in the hardware space. I think in my mind I thought I'd been able to spin it off as a side project? But so far its the type of things I post online and amateurs find it very interesting/artistic but hard to monetize/make sustainable.
sounds good
keep using your free time to improve your skills and/or building something on the side
keep using your free time to improve your skills and/or building something on the side
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