Bolt has a cool web interface and they really don't want you to use it(toot.kuba-orlik.name)
toot.kuba-orlik.name
Bolt has a cool web interface and they really don't want you to use it
https://toot.kuba-orlik.name/@kuba/108503475480137792
157 comments
I personally stop browsing Reddit and Twitter when their fuck-you-banners appear. I have accounts with both, but installing the app or logging in is usually more friction than accessing the content is worth.
... So thanks for keeping my periods of distraction very short! Maybe they just care about their users' mental health and are sacrificing their engagement for it :)
... So thanks for keeping my periods of distraction very short! Maybe they just care about their users' mental health and are sacrificing their engagement for it :)
The default Reddit web site on desktop is excruciating enough to use. On mobile it's unusable. I only use old.reddit.com. If that ever went away I would never visit Reddit again.
Might be worth checking out libredirect [1] which I use on desktop and mobile to automatically redirect reddit links to privacy-respecting front-ends like libreddit and teddit. Also since I have it on my default browser on Android, even if I open a reddit link from, say, a hackernews app, the popup webview will use my default browser which will in turn automatically redirect to libreddit/teddit. I never have to worry about seeing reddit's annoying web app, never have to worry about giving reddit my data.
(old.reddit.com still does give reddit data, and from my experience Reddit does a lot of tracking IPs + working with google + traffic correlation to figure out what stuff you browse. However if you still prefer old reddit, libredirect does provide an option to automatically redirect to old.reddit.com instead of libreddit or teddit)
[1]: https://github.com/libredirect/libredirect
(old.reddit.com still does give reddit data, and from my experience Reddit does a lot of tracking IPs + working with google + traffic correlation to figure out what stuff you browse. However if you still prefer old reddit, libredirect does provide an option to automatically redirect to old.reddit.com instead of libreddit or teddit)
[1]: https://github.com/libredirect/libredirect
Apollo on iOS is great if you’re looking for a Reddit app that doesn’t suck. Not sure if you’re on iOS though.
>I personally stop browsing Reddit and Twitter when their fuck-you-banners appears
That's what https://old.reddit.com is for. Simply prepending "old." to the reddit link makes everything work better.
Works on mobile and desktop, just as it always had.
And no fuck-you banners.
That's what https://old.reddit.com is for. Simply prepending "old." to the reddit link makes everything work better.
Works on mobile and desktop, just as it always had.
And no fuck-you banners.
There's also https://i.reddit.com/ for mobile devices.
My Reddit usage has basically plummeted to 0 at this point because of their pushing me towards an app.
I think there are provable cases where an app almost certainly leads to less retention than more and something like Reddit, whose value lies in allowing you to explore the internet is almost certainly one of them.
I think there are provable cases where an app almost certainly leads to less retention than more and something like Reddit, whose value lies in allowing you to explore the internet is almost certainly one of them.
I really can't understand why Reddit is pushing the app so hard. I mean, keep that as an option, but why creating an awful UX for the mobile web users? You gather more data but the product is worse, less users are staying and you're losing value at the end...
You drive high ad revenue with their mobile app, with all the data mining. The old reddit experience was destroyed to drive ad revenue, they don’t care about UX.
also, beware of reddit URLs bouncing through out.reddit.com — which tracks all link clicks on reddit across mobile and desktop (profiling interests), regardless of login state
also, beware of reddit URLs bouncing through out.reddit.com — which tracks all link clicks on reddit across mobile and desktop (profiling interests), regardless of login state
Push notifications. Once someone is hooked on the site a notification can get them back into the dopamine feedback loop very easily. I think this is why restaurant chains have started giving people free food to install their apps too (along with all the data they can sell now.)
I think smartphones would be much less popular if people understood why corporations love "apps" so much. It's nothing like the older PC world full of software more or less for its own sake.
I think smartphones would be much less popular if people understood why corporations love "apps" so much. It's nothing like the older PC world full of software more or less for its own sake.
> Push notifications.
Do people not turn these off? When I get an unwanted notification, I immediately withdraw permissions to send notifications, or even uninstall the app
Do people not turn these off? When I get an unwanted notification, I immediately withdraw permissions to send notifications, or even uninstall the app
If your on HN you're already in a very filtered group that is less likely to be passive on abusive technology.
bold of you to assume that the average user knows how to disable anything on their phone
> You gather more data
That's it. That's the whole story. Mobile apps provide more opportunity to spy on the user.
That's it. That's the whole story. Mobile apps provide more opportunity to spy on the user.
Easy, harder for users to block the ads in apps. Apple / Google should allow add blockers for the entire OS.
It is possible with SNI blocking to adblock on Android, even when apps use custom DNS revolvers (though not as effective). I built https://github.com/jawline/Puffer a while ago but haven't had the time to improve it much past proof of concept.
Heh, Google adding ad blockers.... I think you might be on the wrong timeline.
i use this on ios: https://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id691121579?pt=425087...
it’s a vpn profile that just intercepts dns requests locally and screens with a hosts file
it’s a vpn profile that just intercepts dns requests locally and screens with a hosts file
Pihole works well here but obviously not end user friendly.
Series F funding. They don't know how to run lean and make themselves profitable so they run a grift on investors and sweet talk them with stories about high value data collection.
Increased engagement and better tracking.
Best thing reddit did to break my use of them:
1/ New UI, forcing people on to old.reddit.com 2/ Mobile pushes HARD for their app, which is pretty buggy on Android from what I can tell 3/ old.reddit.com now shows "other links" midway down the page! Absolutely useless. 4/ old.reddit.com now forces "show more comments"
This is why people left digg to go to reddit. :-)
All I want is the old reddit interface in the middle, feel free to place ads on the right. I even went reddit gold or whatever it was called for a while. I really miss the old reddit UI, there is so much good tech information on reddit for random things, that it's a shame.
1/ New UI, forcing people on to old.reddit.com 2/ Mobile pushes HARD for their app, which is pretty buggy on Android from what I can tell 3/ old.reddit.com now shows "other links" midway down the page! Absolutely useless. 4/ old.reddit.com now forces "show more comments"
This is why people left digg to go to reddit. :-)
All I want is the old reddit interface in the middle, feel free to place ads on the right. I even went reddit gold or whatever it was called for a while. I really miss the old reddit UI, there is so much good tech information on reddit for random things, that it's a shame.
> My Reddit usage has basically plummeted to 0 at this point because of their pushing me towards an app.
My phone can't even work all that well with apps like that or Chrome browser/WebView for that matter. I use Opera on my phone because they allow me to have 50-100 tabs open with no issues, but maybe that's only passable because I never do anything important like banking on the phone anyways.
So, whenever I'm coerced into installing an app for actually browsing content, reading comments, looking at media (vs something more one-off like ordering food/a ride), I just look the other way. Ergo, I never use Reddit on my phone without spoofing the user agent or whatever the "request desktop site" option in Opera does, but then the UI becomes unusable on a phone.
Sadly, cases like mine don't show up in any metrics, nor do people care about that use case, so it's likely that this will keep being done a lot.
My phone can't even work all that well with apps like that or Chrome browser/WebView for that matter. I use Opera on my phone because they allow me to have 50-100 tabs open with no issues, but maybe that's only passable because I never do anything important like banking on the phone anyways.
So, whenever I'm coerced into installing an app for actually browsing content, reading comments, looking at media (vs something more one-off like ordering food/a ride), I just look the other way. Ergo, I never use Reddit on my phone without spoofing the user agent or whatever the "request desktop site" option in Opera does, but then the UI becomes unusable on a phone.
Sadly, cases like mine don't show up in any metrics, nor do people care about that use case, so it's likely that this will keep being done a lot.
You can also use i.reddit.com or old.reddit.com, they're both mich better than the regular site and i.reddit.com is adapted to mobile.
Check out the "Apollo" reddit app. Its a 3rd party app for Reddit. I've started using it and would never go back to the native Reddit app. No ads, very fast, constant updates etc.
I wish I knew why they're pushing the app so hard so I can specifically avoid doing that. If they want you to just have any app installed they'd win even if you install Apollo.
> If they want you to just have any app installed they'd win even if you install Apollo.
Sorry but this just isn't true. They want the app for the tracking, push notifications, etc. Apollo doesn't have the tracking and does it's own push notifications (so you don't get Reddit's marketing-type notifications). Also it's much harder, if not impossible, to block ads in an app vs the web. Apollo has zero ads, they absolutely don't want you using it, even the web is better for Reddit. It's only a matter of time before they "Twitter" up their API even more than they already do. There are multiple things (stats, polls, certain profile features) that they don't expose through their API.
Sorry but this just isn't true. They want the app for the tracking, push notifications, etc. Apollo doesn't have the tracking and does it's own push notifications (so you don't get Reddit's marketing-type notifications). Also it's much harder, if not impossible, to block ads in an app vs the web. Apollo has zero ads, they absolutely don't want you using it, even the web is better for Reddit. It's only a matter of time before they "Twitter" up their API even more than they already do. There are multiple things (stats, polls, certain profile features) that they don't expose through their API.
Does Apollo use their official apis won’t they just deprecate those like Twitter did?
Yep, that’s why I said this:
> It's only a matter of time before they "Twitter" up their API even more than they already do.
When that happens I imagine I’ll fall off of Reddit. “old.reddit.com” and Apollo are the only reasons it’s bearable to use other than a Google search destination.
There is and will be for years if not decades a ton of important/useful information on reddit. Things like cooking tips, home server building, relatively unbiased product reviews, video game help, and the list goes on. A good portion of that content is evergreen. But as for participating, I won’t go back to the official app after using Apollo, even if that means leaving Reddit after over a decade.
> It's only a matter of time before they "Twitter" up their API even more than they already do.
When that happens I imagine I’ll fall off of Reddit. “old.reddit.com” and Apollo are the only reasons it’s bearable to use other than a Google search destination.
There is and will be for years if not decades a ton of important/useful information on reddit. Things like cooking tips, home server building, relatively unbiased product reviews, video game help, and the list goes on. A good portion of that content is evergreen. But as for participating, I won’t go back to the official app after using Apollo, even if that means leaving Reddit after over a decade.
If you don't require authenticated functionality:
https://r.nf/
https://github.com/spikecodes/libreddit
https://codeberg.org/teddit/teddit
https://r.nf/
https://github.com/spikecodes/libreddit
https://codeberg.org/teddit/teddit
I'm still shook that the i.reddit.com interface still works and is virtually unchanged for over 10 years now!
If only more companies followed that principle and just left the bloody interfaces alone unless that had a very good reason.
If only more companies followed that principle and just left the bloody interfaces alone unless that had a very good reason.
I agree that Reddit pushes too hard to get people to use the mobile app.
I found a good trick was to use AN app, just not their app. Apollo on iOS and Boost on android are really good alternatives to the official Reddit app, which is littered with ads.
I found a good trick was to use AN app, just not their app. Apollo on iOS and Boost on android are really good alternatives to the official Reddit app, which is littered with ads.
Reddit optimizes for user attention to sell ads. The mobile app is better at delivering that attention across the user base, even if a few users don't like it. Same thing with Quora and many others.
You say unverified, but I’m pretty sure there’s lots of verification for this. Obviously it will depend on the service or app, but it’s a well known trend.
At my previous job our app had much higher retention than our web product, despite the web product being much more mature, modern, and feature rich. We verified this across multiple marketing channels, and looked at long term user retention over years.
At my previous job our app had much higher retention than our web product, despite the web product being much more mature, modern, and feature rich. We verified this across multiple marketing channels, and looked at long term user retention over years.
Could it be that the mobile interface was simply better in terms of speed, usability, smoothness of the UX? Complex web apps honestly often look and feel shite in the browser.
Potentially, but aren't those essentially properties of native apps? When we say that apps retain users better it's not some magic, it's because of apps typically having better UX, whether that's speed/features, device integration, or the "UX" of being right there on the home screen.
How do you know that people use the app because they are already highly committed to the service, rather than the other way around? IE, the whole thing is a selection effect?
We were a logged-in only service, and measured that users acquired on the app who never used the website were typically retained longer than users acquired on the web who never used the app.
We certainly did encourage users acquired on the web to download the app, and the fact that those who did were retained longer could have been a selection effect, but I don't think this accounts for users who never saw the other platform.
We certainly did encourage users acquired on the web to download the app, and the fact that those who did were retained longer could have been a selection effect, but I don't think this accounts for users who never saw the other platform.
Why are you calling it an unverified myth? In reality there are petabytes generated everyday proving the efficacy of mobile apps vs websites. This has been tested and measured in pretty much every possible way at this point with 100s of billions in ad spend.
It's not just real estate on the screen, it's faster on-device processing with lower latency, rich offline abilities, better and more persistent access to more API's from notifications to storage, stronger identity with durable logins, and of course better analytics tracking.
It's not always the correct choice but native apps are the overall winner for mobile UX.
It's not just real estate on the screen, it's faster on-device processing with lower latency, rich offline abilities, better and more persistent access to more API's from notifications to storage, stronger identity with durable logins, and of course better analytics tracking.
It's not always the correct choice but native apps are the overall winner for mobile UX.
Having petabytes of stats doesn't mean the interpretation of those stats is any good. The retention for your web app might suck, for example, because you're constantly showing popups to the users telling them to switch to the mobile app and once they leave you no longer see them in "the data".
The problem with data is that you can't see the things that are real but not in the data.
The problem with data is that you can't see the things that are real but not in the data.
Qualitative data can be valuable data, even in this quantitative age.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_Bias
More often then not, the front end devs responsible for the app are not very good with "normal" web frontends - so they sabotage the competition, to reduce work. Also, web pages, could be repackaged into Apps by others leeching from the products attention.
More often then not, the front end devs responsible for the app are not very good with "normal" web frontends - so they sabotage the competition, to reduce work. Also, web pages, could be repackaged into Apps by others leeching from the products attention.
Its typical to have a different set of engineers responsible for the web app. Certainly the case if you're not a tiny startup.
Sabotage feels pointless given you're still competing against other native apps. Also I don't even know how you would 'sabotage' the competition, your average app engineer doesn't moonlight as a blackhat hacker.
Sabotage feels pointless given you're still competing against other native apps. Also I don't even know how you would 'sabotage' the competition, your average app engineer doesn't moonlight as a blackhat hacker.
A lot of people I know will simply not use a service if the only way to do so is through an app, due to the dumpster fire that is security and privacy in apps. I understand that such people are a small percentage of the population, but I really do sometimes wonder if companies are even aware that they have a pool of potential customers that they've excluded from even trying their product out.
They are, but they're also aware of the effort vs return on dealing with a "small percentage of the population" as you admit. Sometimes its worth it, often it isn't.
Except that it literally takes more effort to exclude them than it does to not do so. Bolt is the prime example here: they already have a working web app, and they go out of their way to block people from using it instead of the smartphone app, seemingly only in locales where they believe most people have smartphones. Why? What does that accomplish?
It'd be understandable if the smartphone apps came first and the developers decided a web app wasn't worth it, but a lot of these smartphone-app-only developers use PhoneGap and other tools wherein one already has to write a web app.
It'd be understandable if the smartphone apps came first and the developers decided a web app wasn't worth it, but a lot of these smartphone-app-only developers use PhoneGap and other tools wherein one already has to write a web app.
This thread is about web vs apps in general. I don't know why Bolt does what they do, but generally it's a lot of effort to maintain both interfaces for mobile users, often with entirely different teams, frameworks, language stacks, deployment models and more just to end up in the same place.
Like I said: it's understandable when it's actually a native mobile app. It's far less understandable when it's something like Uber or Facebook or Reddit that's very obviously just an HTML/CSS/JS site in a "native app" wrapper.
Uber and Facebook are not HTML apps in a wrapper.
Ah, right, forgot that Facebook invented React Native... in which case my point still stands, since one of the very selling points of React Native is to use the same code for both "native" and web.
There’s probably more people who won’t use something on their phone if there isn’t an app for it. If it’s for a bigger activity. Not that either population is that big.
But in the context of Bolt, I believe they aren't displaying ads in their app?
My reply was against mobile app retention being a myth. I don't know the reasons for Bolt but it's unlikely to do with ads.
Sometimes it looks like designers are using this without any kind of thought. A page in my country, that is used for managing appointments with medical specialists forces user to install it, to read some messages (mostly automated) from this facilities. After installation it tries to remind user that it's there by pushing notifications about it's existence, like anyone is going to be like "I'm bored, I'll check all local urologists and maybe make an appointment with one, just for fun"
This is a weird take, and I highly doubt retention is the primary reason they choose to limit the use of their web interface. In fact, I’m generally suspect of the hand-wavy speculation that some less savvy business unit made a decision in isolation. The two drivers that I would expect are: reducing friction and native compute capabilities.
People generally gravitate towards the path of least resistance, which is something you already see companies exploiting with things like unfavorable privacy settings defaults. Having an app is another instance of that. There is much less mental friction in pushing a button on a home screen compared to opening a browser, punching in a URL, possibly having to log in, etc.
Given that this is rideshare, this is important, because the services offered by other companies are effectively identical. If someone has Uber installed, they would be much more likely to go the path of least resistance — using the installed app — as opposed to going out of their way to use an equivalent offering.
Additionally, there are problems in mapping that would be very difficult, if not impossible, to solve in a browser. For example: localization (precise positioning) would be incredibly difficult without a native library, you wouldn’t be able to do any offline re-routing, like gmaps does, among other limitations.
People generally gravitate towards the path of least resistance, which is something you already see companies exploiting with things like unfavorable privacy settings defaults. Having an app is another instance of that. There is much less mental friction in pushing a button on a home screen compared to opening a browser, punching in a URL, possibly having to log in, etc.
Given that this is rideshare, this is important, because the services offered by other companies are effectively identical. If someone has Uber installed, they would be much more likely to go the path of least resistance — using the installed app — as opposed to going out of their way to use an equivalent offering.
Additionally, there are problems in mapping that would be very difficult, if not impossible, to solve in a browser. For example: localization (precise positioning) would be incredibly difficult without a native library, you wouldn’t be able to do any offline re-routing, like gmaps does, among other limitations.
> There's an (unverified) myth that retention on mobile apps is better. This is one of those things that marketing people keep telling each other without ever verifying the facts. (Unless you deliberately make the web version inferior, of course.)
I own a platform with native apps + web, and I can confirm that retention on mobile apps is better, by the numbers. I'm not comparable to Bolt though, neither in the business model or the number of users.
I own a platform with native apps + web, and I can confirm that retention on mobile apps is better, by the numbers. I'm not comparable to Bolt though, neither in the business model or the number of users.
How much of a delta? Does it justify having mobile?
The worst part of this is how the Mobile Web experience is actively hampered on iOS by Apple. When web apps on mobile do have a worse experience for me, it is often due to Safari. This is especially frustrating because the average consumer blames the website for the poor experience and doesn't understand Apple is at fault.
> Deception works momentarily and can have an immediate effect on some metrics. Long term though, every user and no matter how smart or dumb, will eventually assess the value it gets them against the money, against their time, or against the "home screen real estate" they provided.
This doesn't apply to Bolt nor any of their competitors. They all work off VC money subsidizing rides and once the VC money dries up users will flock to the next competitor that's being VC-subsidized. This will happen much quicker than the users wisen up to the abuse.
This doesn't apply to Bolt nor any of their competitors. They all work off VC money subsidizing rides and once the VC money dries up users will flock to the next competitor that's being VC-subsidized. This will happen much quicker than the users wisen up to the abuse.
> Deception works momentarily and can have an immediate effect on some metrics. Long terms though, every user and no matter how smart or dumb, will eventually assess the value it gets them against the money, against their time, or against the "home screen real estate" they provided.
Long term hardly matters for most these days, they're optimizing for $ and promotions as mercenaries. That metric bump will get the PM promoted where they'll jump ship to the next company and juice the app metrics the same.
Long term hardly matters for most these days, they're optimizing for $ and promotions as mercenaries. That metric bump will get the PM promoted where they'll jump ship to the next company and juice the app metrics the same.
Exactly. Short terms tricks are often also used right before a funding round or acquisition.
People on HN are not idiots. Users, in a broad sense, are. There are people searching for wordle in the app store for Christ's sake.
This is ridiculous.
Why they assume that I'm picking because I saw them on screen? I'm picking them because of price and service quality. People from marketing voodoo...
I don’t think it’s really about retention, but rather the value of the richer data set you can gather on your users.
This reminds me of Reddit's approach to mobile. They make their mobile web interface excruciating to use, and block features client side just to push you onto their app.
I'm guessing it has to do with mobile users being more lucrative?
I'm guessing it has to do with mobile users being more lucrative?
Its funny though - because their mobile web interface is SOOOO bad, I'm using the "Apollo" app, which means I dont see any Reddit ads, and its a much better experience.
If they didnt have such a crappy web experience, I would probably just use the native web page and see some ads.
So its actually driving people away to alternatives that reduces their revenue. Crazy...
If they didnt have such a crappy web experience, I would probably just use the native web page and see some ads.
So its actually driving people away to alternatives that reduces their revenue. Crazy...
I'm about 90% sure that reddit is going to pull a twitter and kill off API access so apps like Apollo no longer function.
The result of which will be, paraphrasing an old letter to the editor for a magazine that had temporarily stopped publishing such letters...
====
Dear Reddit,
What a coincidence. You've stopped allowing third-party apps to have access to your API, and I've stopped visiting your site.
Sincerely,
A Former User
====
Dear Reddit,
What a coincidence. You've stopped allowing third-party apps to have access to your API, and I've stopped visiting your site.
Sincerely,
A Former User
Is that a net negative for them though? Unless you're a really active or popular poster, you're probably just costing them money browsing the site and not looking at ads.
Yeah, thought of that after I replied. OTOH, it would leave them with people not sufficiently tech-savvy to block ads, which is reminiscent of the old joke about a jury’s being composed of “12 people who weren’t smart enough to evade jury duty.” I guess they don’t care about that one way or the other as long as Some EyeBalls See Ads.
Yeah it's definitely not what you would want if you were building a community. But maybe it's ok if you just want cash.
Well, if I'm not there providing expert input on esoteric programming stuff, memes on StarTrekMemes, or participating in my local community's small sub, they'll all decline in value
Reddit will turn into a bad TikTok clone and probably die off to the real TikTok if too many people like us leave
Reddit will turn into a bad TikTok clone and probably die off to the real TikTok if too many people like us leave
Exactly that.
I'm pretty sure they made the math, and that's the reason old-reddit and the API are still alive despite the many threats and deadlines they published for taking them out.
In fact, I would not be surprised if most deep content come from those (despite most users not even knowing about them), because the new interface and the app are both extremely focused on shallow stuff.
I'm pretty sure they made the math, and that's the reason old-reddit and the API are still alive despite the many threats and deadlines they published for taking them out.
In fact, I would not be surprised if most deep content come from those (despite most users not even knowing about them), because the new interface and the app are both extremely focused on shallow stuff.
To be fair, people have been saying this for years, and it's still yet to happen.
It is, however, true that they've been slowly adding features that can't be accessed via an API, so I think the more likely scenario is that they'll just try to make third-party apps artificially less competitive, betting that it might add up long term.
It is, however, true that they've been slowly adding features that can't be accessed via an API, so I think the more likely scenario is that they'll just try to make third-party apps artificially less competitive, betting that it might add up long term.
Sure, in another 10 years or so. They have increased headcount 10x and VC investment 10x but execution is forever stuck at "worse than Twitter" levels.
Reddit is about 10x > twitter. lol
talk about losing half your users overnight lol
I'm really surprised why the didn't just buy clients from developers like the ones who make Apollo. They are so much better than the one they make
They do the same thing to old.reddit.com (cookie banners redirect there, etc)
Like, I get that you don't update it anymore, and I don't need (or want) you to, but the new version is insanely slow on my computer, so just let me use whatever I want please.
Like, I get that you don't update it anymore, and I don't need (or want) you to, but the new version is insanely slow on my computer, so just let me use whatever I want please.
The "new" redesign is just so bad. Viewing a post only shows comments 1 level deep, and then to see the rest of the thread you have to click "continue this thread" and then you have to go back to get to any other threads, just constant tiresome clicks...
Reading the comments on a post in old reddit is a pleasure, but in the redesign it's a complete mess. Why?
Oh and what the hell is the deal with links to content containing other completely unrelated content as well?
The day they kill old.reddit.com or API access to force me to stop using Apollo (which is an insanely well-built reddit client for iOS) is the day I'll just reluctantly stop using reddit entirely.
Reading the comments on a post in old reddit is a pleasure, but in the redesign it's a complete mess. Why?
Oh and what the hell is the deal with links to content containing other completely unrelated content as well?
The day they kill old.reddit.com or API access to force me to stop using Apollo (which is an insanely well-built reddit client for iOS) is the day I'll just reluctantly stop using reddit entirely.
I barely use it anymore, but a lot of search results lead to (mostly helpful) reddit threads. If old.reddit.com dies I'll stop clicking on reddit links (even if I wanted, the new one so extremely slow for me it's borderline unusable).
More lucrative in the sense that they can collect a lot more information on the user :/
You can actually disable the open in app prompt; it's kind of hidden, but if you open the menu > settings > uncheck "Request to open in app". This makes it usable for me.
Reddit is just content that you browse and occasionally leave a text comment on, it fits browser perfectly.
A taxi app, on the other hand, has a lot of functionality that is very hard to fit into a browser and implement well.
A taxi app, on the other hand, has a lot of functionality that is very hard to fit into a browser and implement well.
I have a location where I am and a location I want to get to. I need a way to specify the two, and a way to enter payment info. That is literally all a taxi app should do.
Why is that all the taxi app should do?
Getting a message "heavy traffic, your car has been delayed" is what everyone else seeming rational really wants. Messaging and awareness of the current state of the transaction they are in.
Getting a message "heavy traffic, your car has been delayed" is what everyone else seeming rational really wants. Messaging and awareness of the current state of the transaction they are in.
Before it arrives, you mean? That's still not something that a web page can't easily do.
Why not?
You have a page with a piece of JavaScript on it. Every 30 seconds it pings back "What's the status of request 12345678?" and updates a div.
If Domino's can display "your order has been handed to Steve for delivery", then a taxi service can say "Tom is stuck on the 405."
You have a page with a piece of JavaScript on it. Every 30 seconds it pings back "What's the status of request 12345678?" and updates a div.
If Domino's can display "your order has been handed to Steve for delivery", then a taxi service can say "Tom is stuck on the 405."
Okay, that's the 90% of the taxi app. What about the other 90%?
Add the German site "ebay-kleinanzeigen.de" to this list. Some responsive design would be easy, but they'd rather have their users use the app with more ads and all the other sweet revenue juice.
Reddit mobile web is so full of dark patterns.
It really put a dent in how much I used to love Reddit.
And the mobile app is terrible terrible turd of epic proportions. The person who designed it is a monster.
It really put a dent in how much I used to love Reddit.
And the mobile app is terrible terrible turd of epic proportions. The person who designed it is a monster.
My suspicion is that it's harder to monitor network traffic in an app than it is on the Web, and they want to push as much trackers as possible
You mean easier to track on app than web, right?
"This app would like to use location services"
'Allow'
Or
'Uninstall'
'Allow'
Or
'Uninstall'
try this www.reddit.com/.compact. No ads, a billion times easier to grok
I formerly worked at Uber. I’m surprised that Bolt blocks the web app from working. Uber also built a web app which is incredibly lightweight - here’s a summary on how it was built [1]. It’s a life saver especially if e.g. at an airport and you pay for data over roaming. Uber doesn’t exactly advertise m.uber.com, but there’s no blocking of it.
My suspect is that Bold wants you to use their app as they can eg send push notifications, and gather more metadata from users - some of which can be used for eg more signal on determining if a request might be fraudulent.
[1] https://eng.uber.com/m-uber/
My suspect is that Bold wants you to use their app as they can eg send push notifications, and gather more metadata from users - some of which can be used for eg more signal on determining if a request might be fraudulent.
[1] https://eng.uber.com/m-uber/
Uber actually had two of these: m.uber and dial.uber.com which was geo-fenced to India and from what I understood (looking at the UX, API calls etc) built by a separate team.
The latter was shut down unceremoniously a few years ago, but that was always my favourite thing to point out how over-engineered Uber often was - to the point of having two separate mobile websites for the exact same purpose.
The latter was shut down unceremoniously a few years ago, but that was always my favourite thing to point out how over-engineered Uber often was - to the point of having two separate mobile websites for the exact same purpose.
Wow, I never knew of dial.uber.com!! m.uber.com was built by an engineering team in India, but for global usage.
Just tried it in London - logged in as usual, all looks good until you try to book, then it tells you booking is not available and to use the app.
I'm not sure if it isn't blocked now, but I remember m.uber being blocked for Russian users a couple years ago. My phone died and I had to change trains in a couple dozen minutes in the middle of the night, so this wasn't a very pleasant experience :')
Lyft has a nice one, too: https://ride.lyft.com/
I tried this once in London and it wouldn't work.
> So basically I made it easier for me to give Bolt money. You're welcome, Bolt!
This is the key takeaway I think, so many online businesses spend so much time trying to push me into their app, or accounts, or subscriptions, that they forget they're supposed to be taking my money. There are plenty of services I would have loved to use, but ya'll made it so damn hard to give you my money and order your services that I gave up.
This is the key takeaway I think, so many online businesses spend so much time trying to push me into their app, or accounts, or subscriptions, that they forget they're supposed to be taking my money. There are plenty of services I would have loved to use, but ya'll made it so damn hard to give you my money and order your services that I gave up.
What you're missing is that a large majority of tech was never about customers' money. It's about "growth & engagement" which can be leveraged to raise astronomical amounts of VC funding, much more than the product itself is ever expected to make (sometimes the product is fundamentally unprofitable and will never make any money).
There are some people's money that's not worth taking for one reason or another. In the software world it's not uncommon to loose customers because the features they need would cost too much in support and upkeep vs the revenue it brings in.
Does this kind of stuff really never backfire? I can see maybe with Bolt or Uber since you're in a hurry you might just cave, but I see this behavior everywhere!
In a world where every app tries to exploit "spur of the moment" brain shortcircuits a big nag seems counterintuitive, e.g. Reddit's "Download the app or go away" is my free reminder that I have better things to do.
In a world where every app tries to exploit "spur of the moment" brain shortcircuits a big nag seems counterintuitive, e.g. Reddit's "Download the app or go away" is my free reminder that I have better things to do.
I don’t install social media apps like Reddit, Facebook or Twitter. And all of them are trying to force me to install their apps. There is even a similar restriction with Facebook messenger, which you can use in mobile Chrome if you use the “request desktop site” feature, but not on the normal mobile site.
I'm glad that geo-fencing was mentioned.
This is what I think all these apps - Kuba, Bolt and all those food delivery companies are. They are changing behaviour at present, they make things easy and advantageous for the user. Then the trap will be sprung.
Similar to how corporate petrol stations and corporate super stores drop their prices to force local shops out of business. Once they have control and a monopolistic position they can do what they like re prices.
Here these companies are working with governance directives to decrease traffic on the roads - it suits the corporates for consumers to have less ability to travel. Making it easy for food, local travel etc whilst making it uncomfortable to have a car (extra regulations, decreasing capacity on roads, greater licensing fees, etc) is part of the plan.
The concern is that once we lose the freedom of independent travel that we have with private cars, that won't be coming back. You will be geo-fenced.
This itself fits very nicely with the dystopian agenda I see on the horizon, where if you are not considered a good citizen, your ability to travel and interact with the system will be curtailed. We see this with the freezing of protestor bank accounts in Canada, China's social credit system, green passes to access shops, etc. Geo fencing will be a part of that.
This is what I think all these apps - Kuba, Bolt and all those food delivery companies are. They are changing behaviour at present, they make things easy and advantageous for the user. Then the trap will be sprung.
Similar to how corporate petrol stations and corporate super stores drop their prices to force local shops out of business. Once they have control and a monopolistic position they can do what they like re prices.
Here these companies are working with governance directives to decrease traffic on the roads - it suits the corporates for consumers to have less ability to travel. Making it easy for food, local travel etc whilst making it uncomfortable to have a car (extra regulations, decreasing capacity on roads, greater licensing fees, etc) is part of the plan.
The concern is that once we lose the freedom of independent travel that we have with private cars, that won't be coming back. You will be geo-fenced.
This itself fits very nicely with the dystopian agenda I see on the horizon, where if you are not considered a good citizen, your ability to travel and interact with the system will be curtailed. We see this with the freezing of protestor bank accounts in Canada, China's social credit system, green passes to access shops, etc. Geo fencing will be a part of that.
Yes. The trend I have seen is that companies reversed the process when it comes to blocking. They block everything and then open for the traffic they want. Any new or minor ISP is blocked by default.
> This is what I think all these apps - Kuba, Bolt and all those food delivery companies are.
I meant Uber, Bolt and all those food delivery companies are!! Not the author's name!
I meant Uber, Bolt and all those food delivery companies are!! Not the author's name!
I can't speak for others, but I refuse to use most mobile apps. Websites run in a much smaller sandbox with an ad blocker. I can trust them to stop running code on my device after I close the tab. It won't try to hijack my attention with push notifications and icon badges.
If a business forces me to use their app, I won't use that business until I'm out of alternatives.
If a business forces me to use their app, I won't use that business until I'm out of alternatives.
Web too good and too free. So we get crap like Reddit harrassing mobile web users to use their app and purposely sabotaging their own web interface to further that.
As a daily Bolt user I have two main guesses as to why they want everyone using the app.
1) GPS tracking. They want to know where you are at all times. The app makes this tracking easier than a webpage.
2) Upselling. The Bolt app has front and center upselling to their car rental service, their scooter rental service, and their food delivery service. All these services share the same account and payment info too. -- Do these exist in the web version? I don't see them on the screenshots. These upsells can be implemented on the web too of course, but that probably hasn't happened as it requires web apps for those services too.
1) GPS tracking. They want to know where you are at all times. The app makes this tracking easier than a webpage.
2) Upselling. The Bolt app has front and center upselling to their car rental service, their scooter rental service, and their food delivery service. All these services share the same account and payment info too. -- Do these exist in the web version? I don't see them on the screenshots. These upsells can be implemented on the web too of course, but that probably hasn't happened as it requires web apps for those services too.
> (I'm not going to share the particular details on which request and which query parameter that is)
Why not ? It's not like that would matter anyway...
Why not ? It's not like that would matter anyway...
Author here. I just don't want to make patching it easier for Bolt
That doesn't add up. Even if they become aware of the thread and were oblivious as to the side effect of omitting the parameter, they're going to be able to enumerate the query parameters they use internally fairly quickly.
Well, I don't like to be a party pooper, but there's only two way this can go :
- nobody working at Bolt care that they geofencing is lame. The fault was there since the beginning and the two freelancers maintaining the web version have a long backlog, little visibility and no bargaining power. Plus, they haven't got their contract renewed yet.
- They have no idea your workaround exists. Even if they are bored enough to read Hacker News on a Sunday, their web app is going to be discontinued on the next API upgrade anyway.
Bonus point :
An app is just a nice frontend. I'm pretty sure you could make your own web client and order your own ride with a few API calls even if they patch the fault.
- nobody working at Bolt care that they geofencing is lame. The fault was there since the beginning and the two freelancers maintaining the web version have a long backlog, little visibility and no bargaining power. Plus, they haven't got their contract renewed yet.
- They have no idea your workaround exists. Even if they are bored enough to read Hacker News on a Sunday, their web app is going to be discontinued on the next API upgrade anyway.
Bonus point :
An app is just a nice frontend. I'm pretty sure you could make your own web client and order your own ride with a few API calls even if they patch the fault.
About one thing you said, Apple and Google need not be lumped together. They are as different as night and day.
I think they meant that ios and android are the only companies that apps are made for (so they're the only platforms people actually use), hence it's a duopoly.
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From the thread:
> So basically I made it easier for me to give Bolt money. You're welcome, Bolt!
But does Bolt even want my money? Maybe the real reason they push apps so hard is that apps allow more access to that sweet, sweet private data on my phone so they can sell it, which is their real cash cow?
> So basically I made it easier for me to give Bolt money. You're welcome, Bolt!
But does Bolt even want my money? Maybe the real reason they push apps so hard is that apps allow more access to that sweet, sweet private data on my phone so they can sell it, which is their real cash cow?
Yeah, unless we are talking about games or special hardware access, mobile Web has become good enough for this kind of use cases.
Naturally these kind of dark patterns to force apps don't apply.
Naturally these kind of dark patterns to force apps don't apply.
I thought this was about Bolt, the payment and checkout app.
I know, it's a bit confusing for non EU users, but Bolt (the ride hailing app, formerly Taxify) is quite popular at least in the Baltics and in a bunch of other random countries (I used it in Kenya a lot and it worked quite well)
> we, the users, are compliant with such abuse of monopoly.
But Bolt is not a monopoly. There are many taxi services in Riga.
> I invite you to boycott any company that forces (or coerces) you to install an app...
I do not think I will boycott Bolt just because you hacked their product and somehow become outraged. Bolt rides are cheaper than the alternative and .. the app works. The alternative mainstream taxi app needs an ios upgrade, and the ios upgrade fails on my shitty old phone.
Edit: There is no uber in riga looks like. Nice work, but running a company that generates cash at scale is hard. So i am sympathetic to the app developer.
But Bolt is not a monopoly. There are many taxi services in Riga.
> I invite you to boycott any company that forces (or coerces) you to install an app...
I do not think I will boycott Bolt just because you hacked their product and somehow become outraged. Bolt rides are cheaper than the alternative and .. the app works. The alternative mainstream taxi app needs an ios upgrade, and the ios upgrade fails on my shitty old phone.
Edit: There is no uber in riga looks like. Nice work, but running a company that generates cash at scale is hard. So i am sympathetic to the app developer.
> But Bolt is not a monopoly. There are many taxi services in Riga.
My experience is that if you don't speak Latvian, Bolt is basically the only choice to order a ride in Riga. Oh trust me, how I've tried. I never use those ride hailing services unless there's no other option left.
> No thanks I will not boycott Bolt because you chose to violate some ToS and hack their product and somehow become outraged.
Well, I'm not inviting people to boycott Bolt because I "hacked their product". I'm inviting to boycott Bolt because they are using dark patterns to take control away from users.
My experience is that if you don't speak Latvian, Bolt is basically the only choice to order a ride in Riga. Oh trust me, how I've tried. I never use those ride hailing services unless there's no other option left.
> No thanks I will not boycott Bolt because you chose to violate some ToS and hack their product and somehow become outraged.
Well, I'm not inviting people to boycott Bolt because I "hacked their product". I'm inviting to boycott Bolt because they are using dark patterns to take control away from users.
At the end you talk about having laws passed. What sort of law do you want passed exactly (and do you mean EU, specific EU countries, US, elsewhere)?
I guess one thing could be to force businesses of certain scale (or ideally, of any scale) to not offer services exclusive to a particular digital ecosystem, unless that's the only way to provide that service.
My local restaurant uses an app to do loyalty stamps... I really wish tey would come back to the traditional paper-based ones
My local restaurant uses an app to do loyalty stamps... I really wish tey would come back to the traditional paper-based ones
Why should the government mandate something like that? Why don't you just give feedback to the businesses that they should make these changes and if you and enough other people feel the same way, they probably will. I understand government intervention in cases of dark patterns that harm consumers (e.g. the recent Intuit settlement in the U.S.) and to protect certain groups that are likely to be harmed or neglected (e.g. the handicapped, blind, etc.) but I'm not sure I understand the need for government to intervene in a case like this where it is a business choice and the consumer while annoyed is not really harmed and there is no monopoly (as far as I remember in Estonia when I lived there a few years ago it was quite easy to hail a normal cab anywhere and was the same when I travelled the Baltics), and personally I get very nervous when the government starts regulating very specific things.
this will never happen.
outside of the imperial centers, "big tech" have already reached into governments.
for example, latin america governments make it very difficult to schedule a dmv visit without a cellphone number AND a meta/facebook's whatsApp account. While all public universities accepted a free google meet account for covid time remote classes, and now got a surprise multimillion bill to access material uploaded to the system after the original offer period.
things are already way past the point of no return.
while rich engineers are busy fiddling with websites to solver their own problems (could your immediate family have hailed that ride when in a similar situation?) companies have already encroached themselves in the very foundation of the institutions that could solve this via public policy.
outside of the imperial centers, "big tech" have already reached into governments.
for example, latin america governments make it very difficult to schedule a dmv visit without a cellphone number AND a meta/facebook's whatsApp account. While all public universities accepted a free google meet account for covid time remote classes, and now got a surprise multimillion bill to access material uploaded to the system after the original offer period.
things are already way past the point of no return.
while rich engineers are busy fiddling with websites to solver their own problems (could your immediate family have hailed that ride when in a similar situation?) companies have already encroached themselves in the very foundation of the institutions that could solve this via public policy.
Which control are they taking away from you? You choose to use their service and yet you complaint because they don't allow you to use it as you see fit. As far as you know, the web client is not as well developed and maintained. I can't fathom where this sense of entitlement comes from.
Agree with this part.
Not really, it is sort of a monopoly. The only competitor app we had was Yandex Taxi, but ever since the war we don't have it here anymore.
Did Uber exit the market in the region completely?
For what it's worth Uber is still in the neighboring Estonia, which is also the headquarters of Bolt.
Uber entered Estonia quite early and did its classic market share grab where it completely dominated. However they quickly lost that market share to Bolt (in a period of a few years, and even before it was called Bolt - it was Taxify back then) because of local market understanding and more concentrated marketing/advertising. Nowadays Uber still "works", but you have to wait 20 minutes for a car, compared to 2 minutes with Bolt. I get a sense that a good chunk of Uber drivers are banned from Bolt, but this is just a hunch based on the Uber drivers accepting low fee rides during surge pricing on Bolt.
Uber entered Estonia quite early and did its classic market share grab where it completely dominated. However they quickly lost that market share to Bolt (in a period of a few years, and even before it was called Bolt - it was Taxify back then) because of local market understanding and more concentrated marketing/advertising. Nowadays Uber still "works", but you have to wait 20 minutes for a car, compared to 2 minutes with Bolt. I get a sense that a good chunk of Uber drivers are banned from Bolt, but this is just a hunch based on the Uber drivers accepting low fee rides during surge pricing on Bolt.
Okay, yeah I'd used Uber once or twice when I moved to Estonia but Bolt just so completely dominated that I switched over to using that whenever I was in Estonia and then if you wanted to go really low priced you could use Yandex Taxi (although I mainly used that in Armenia because that was the best local option at the time).
It never was a thing in Latvia, and neither was Lyft. I don't recall Bolt (ex Taxify) ever having another app competitor except Yandex Taxi
[deleted]
If I were to speculate, Bolt steals and monetizes a ton of your data. App gives access to GPS, which can then be sold to hedge funds, advertisers, etc., with some veneer of GDPR-compliance.
Perhaps customers are no longer sustainable without that.
Perhaps customers are no longer sustainable without that.
> without an annoying app!
I fail to see why an app that delivers the promised feature can be annoying. More annoying than installing extensions, messing with HTTP requests, etc?
I fail to see why an app that delivers the promised feature can be annoying. More annoying than installing extensions, messing with HTTP requests, etc?
Have a look at the images on top of the post, the bolt websites highlight 5 reasons why you might prefer to use the browser.
If Bolt didn't artificially geo-restrict this feature, navigating to their site would be all you need to do, and that's less annoying than using their app. The current method, installing an extension and making a rule for it, is the result of this restriction, but would not be needed without bolt's restrictions.
If Bolt didn't artificially geo-restrict this feature, navigating to their site would be all you need to do, and that's less annoying than using their app. The current method, installing an extension and making a rule for it, is the result of this restriction, but would not be needed without bolt's restrictions.
I'd just have installed the app and got on with my life. But I admire the effort.
Same. If there's a problem, it's not this particular app, it's the status quo of Apple and Google's ecosystem.
I think there are really obvious reasons for ridesharing and taxi apps to exclusively use apps. Notifications are very important to the experience (which you can't do on iOS Safari). Having persistent location access like a navigation app is another key part of the system.
Don't like it? Put your arm up and hail a cab or call the dispatch office to request a ride, that's what we had to do not even 20 years ago.
The app store duopoly and privacy problem isn't one that's solved by playing whack-a-mole with individual companies on those platforms. The way to solve those problems is by regulating Google and Apple's App Stores for both privacy and business practices.
I think there are really obvious reasons for ridesharing and taxi apps to exclusively use apps. Notifications are very important to the experience (which you can't do on iOS Safari). Having persistent location access like a navigation app is another key part of the system.
Don't like it? Put your arm up and hail a cab or call the dispatch office to request a ride, that's what we had to do not even 20 years ago.
The app store duopoly and privacy problem isn't one that's solved by playing whack-a-mole with individual companies on those platforms. The way to solve those problems is by regulating Google and Apple's App Stores for both privacy and business practices.
> Don't like it? Put your arm up and hail a cab or call the dispatch office to request a ride, that's what we had to do not even 20 years ago.
I usually do this and call taxis by phone whenever I can, but in Riga this was exceptionally difficult due to language constraints
I usually do this and call taxis by phone whenever I can, but in Riga this was exceptionally difficult due to language constraints
We’re only a few more years away from very few services being available outside of the google/apple app ecosystems.
Most apps don’t do anything that couldn’t just be a webpage yet we’re being forced into handing control and service cut to apple and google and opening up more intimate data to service providers.
Most apps don’t do anything that couldn’t just be a webpage yet we’re being forced into handing control and service cut to apple and google and opening up more intimate data to service providers.
The reasoning behind it is that you should take real estate on the user's home screen at all costs, because your app's icon will serve as a reminder and people will allegedly come back to it and open more often.
But what matters at the end of the day is the product and the value it brings to the users. I'd argue that deceiving the users to provide real estate for your app does not help your business in the long term. If you get more installs today by coercing them (like Reddit does, for example) you will most definitely see some other metric such as retention decline over time.
Broadly, users - us that is - are not idiots. Deception works momentarily and can have an immediate effect on some metrics. Long term though, every user and no matter how smart or dumb, will eventually assess the value it gets them against the money, against their time, or against the "home screen real estate" they provided.
Speaking from my own experience with multiple mobile apps: there are many ways you can trick the users but you can't trick the longer terms statistics.