A Response(caspercloudwalker.bearblog.dev)
caspercloudwalker.bearblog.dev
A Response
https://caspercloudwalker.bearblog.dev/a-response/
79 comments
Can we not armchair-diagnose people with mental illness, when we don't have anything more than a few blog posts to go on, and don't know much about them at all? And probably aren't qualified to make such a diagnosis anyway, even if we could sit in a room with them and talk to them for an hour about what's going on?
Nah I think we need more armchairing. In fact there should be a whole HN department around it, with salaried positions. :D
Maybe it’s just me but when I see a layperson say “this person is depressed” I don’t assume they’re armchair diagnosing clinical depression. Depressed mood is not great but it’s also not inherently disordered, it’s a normal part of the human experience and doesn’t mean someone has a mental health diagnosis.
Agree. It’s not the arm chair diagnosis that bothers me, it the “they just need too…” solutions that come after.
I completely agree that "what you need to do" sort of comments are less than helpful. Perhaps the GP was edited, but "He'd probably do well" reads as "I would suggest" which is actually meant well to me. The former presupposes what one needs and is unnecessarily authoritative (and I cannot help but assume an air of condescension from using the statement), while the second is simply the suggestion written as kindly as possible (again to me).
I'm glad they wrote it, because it has not been suggested to me that I need to "be challenged if [I] tr[y] using [my] intellect to deflect from sitting with or reflecting upon said emotions". I very much identify with this statement owing to a life of using intellect as a coping mechanism for emotions that I have been told I'm not supposed to feel. I also have work to do.
Edit: typos
I'm glad they wrote it, because it has not been suggested to me that I need to "be challenged if [I] tr[y] using [my] intellect to deflect from sitting with or reflecting upon said emotions". I very much identify with this statement owing to a life of using intellect as a coping mechanism for emotions that I have been told I'm not supposed to feel. I also have work to do.
Edit: typos
To what limit are laymen required to ignore manifest reality?
If someone writes that he is sneezing, has a sore throat, runny nose etc., are we allowed to infer that he has a cold?
If someone writes that he is sneezing, has a sore throat, runny nose etc., are we allowed to infer that he has a cold?
We are not, because he could also have had contact with particularly hot sauce, or an allergy, or an influenza infection, or covid, or early stages of worse things. There is a reason why we train medical doctors for years before they start diagnosing people.
Yet, people can and will use heuristics as GP does to make such inferences all the time. I don’t think we can help it. Whether that’s a problem depends on what one does with such an inference.
In the case of a suspected cold, it’s perfectly reasonable to keep one’s distance to try to avoid catching it, whether the supposition is correct or not.
Suspected depression? Harder to say, but at minimum I hope that appraisal engenders understanding and compassion. I think gently suggesting someone seek professional help is reasonable. I also think we have a tendency to overly pathologize perfectly normal mental states, however, and especially if (as the OP states) a person appraises themselves to be OK, then suggestion should not become insistence.
In the case of a suspected cold, it’s perfectly reasonable to keep one’s distance to try to avoid catching it, whether the supposition is correct or not.
Suspected depression? Harder to say, but at minimum I hope that appraisal engenders understanding and compassion. I think gently suggesting someone seek professional help is reasonable. I also think we have a tendency to overly pathologize perfectly normal mental states, however, and especially if (as the OP states) a person appraises themselves to be OK, then suggestion should not become insistence.
And when someone drops a brick, and it falls to the floor, unless you're a physicist, you shouldn't infer it fell because of gravity. It could be that the video was taken in a room in space, and it feel because the space-ship is accelerating, or due to centrifugal forces from artificial gravity, or the brick has metal components, and there's a magnet under it.
> There is a reason why we train medical doctors for years before they start diagnosing people.
That reason is partly so that they can be recognized as doctors. Making an observational deduction has nothing to do with medicine nor imitating a doctor, per se.
That reason is partly so that they can be recognized as doctors. Making an observational deduction has nothing to do with medicine nor imitating a doctor, per se.
> There is a reason why we train medical doctors for years before they start diagnosing people.
This is not support for your previous sentence. A large portion of doctors' training consists of making sure they will treat someone with a runny nose for a cold before they'll even consider other explanations.
This is not support for your previous sentence. A large portion of doctors' training consists of making sure they will treat someone with a runny nose for a cold before they'll even consider other explanations.
To say that you need a clinician to diagnose depression, is like saying you need an MRI machine to detect pain.
I'm not saying the person we're talking about is depressed (or that he's not), I'm just commenting on what you said.
I'm not saying the person we're talking about is depressed (or that he's not), I'm just commenting on what you said.
> person is depressed
I did not get this feeling. Sometimes a bit of isolation and retrospection is enough to realize what your real priorities are. Things can be deprioritized without acknowledging a superior priority, and that's okay. As we go through life, we change, people change, our surroundings change, and sometimes all of the external things change for the worst around the same time and that's just how life goes.
Noting these deficiencies doesn't outright indicate someone is depressed and could indicate progress. Most people with any amount of deep introspection explore these possibilities, and I think that's healthy rather than living in fear of having to process uncomfortable truths. Sometimes we dig deep enough to find those truths werent as true as we thought they were, and that's progress.
I did not get this feeling. Sometimes a bit of isolation and retrospection is enough to realize what your real priorities are. Things can be deprioritized without acknowledging a superior priority, and that's okay. As we go through life, we change, people change, our surroundings change, and sometimes all of the external things change for the worst around the same time and that's just how life goes.
Noting these deficiencies doesn't outright indicate someone is depressed and could indicate progress. Most people with any amount of deep introspection explore these possibilities, and I think that's healthy rather than living in fear of having to process uncomfortable truths. Sometimes we dig deep enough to find those truths werent as true as we thought they were, and that's progress.
Everything in his original post discussing his withdrawal, his inability to engage in society, screams clinical depression.
Or at least, it quacks an awful lot like a duck with depression.
Or at least, it quacks an awful lot like a duck with depression.
As someone without any diagnostic training, I would also think that someone that is in a depression (A) could write a blogpost like that (B). That is, I can imagine that A ==> B is true. However, even if that were actually so in the real world, that does not mean its converse (B ==> A) is true as well.
So even in the optimistic case where, lack of diagnostic training notwithstanding, A ==> B, even then observing B does not necessarily imply A.
Which probably is part of the reason you shouldn't diagnose people over the Internet based on their posts, but via a diagnostic process actively involving them.
So even in the optimistic case where, lack of diagnostic training notwithstanding, A ==> B, even then observing B does not necessarily imply A.
Which probably is part of the reason you shouldn't diagnose people over the Internet based on their posts, but via a diagnostic process actively involving them.
> As someone without any diagnostic training, I would also think that someone that is in a depression (A) could write a blogpost like that (B). That is, I can imagine that A ==> B is true.
What you have stated in words is rather more like, in the modal+temporal logic sense, "it is possible that A and then B" (temporal 'then'), not "if A, then B" (logical 'then'), which is how I read A ==> B--unless you meant, as I think you didn't, everyone experiencing A will do B.
What you have stated in words is rather more like, in the modal+temporal logic sense, "it is possible that A and then B" (temporal 'then'), not "if A, then B" (logical 'then'), which is how I read A ==> B--unless you meant, as I think you didn't, everyone experiencing A will do B.
You have a point, though I would see it as an exists operator (\exists_A A\implies B) than a modal operator. But that might be because it's been a while since I used modal logic :)
You are making the assumption that something is wrong with him. What if there is something wrong with society and he is just early to see it and be affected?
This is what capitalism odes, it always puts the burden on the individual. No, there is nothing every wrong with how we structure our society, never.
I am sure you could name some groups you would not find it pleasing to engage with...
This is what capitalism odes, it always puts the burden on the individual. No, there is nothing every wrong with how we structure our society, never.
I am sure you could name some groups you would not find it pleasing to engage with...
Wait what? Like half of the ish we talk about on HN is what’s wrong with society, and we often look for the structural reasons behind society’s ills.. Including direct shots at capitalism.. And this is just one of a zillion online communities for folks of different stripes..
For sure I can imagine someone getting to a place where they feel gaslit by dysfunctional society, many must be in this boat all the time, the world is a challenging place. Should we not offer them a friendly hand, if they’re open to it?
For sure I can imagine someone getting to a place where they feel gaslit by dysfunctional society, many must be in this boat all the time, the world is a challenging place. Should we not offer them a friendly hand, if they’re open to it?
I don't think it screams clinical depression. I live in a rural area and empathize how someone could get to feeling this way. It can be tough to have so few people to talk to face-to-face on a peer level about the things that you're passionate about most, not because they don't want to talk about it, but because they mentally can't grok the subject matter to offer any consolation. You become your own best friend, your own therapist, your own support network. It's easy to socially discard people when you are precluded from forming those connections, they're just acquaintances, like the domino crew at the barber shop. I'm not saying it's right, but it doesn't also mean they're depressed or doesn't 'scream it' as you put it.
I feel like that's not the case
Just skimming to two parts in the second to last paragraph, these two sentences, "I am often desperately looking inward to find the strength to go on", and "Accepting a constant stream of low quality things for most of my life, including interactions with other people, only contributed to the way my life has gone and the way I feel now" were really striking to the author's day-to-day. It sounds like he' struggling to doing what he needs to do and they're content with the way this is. We should want more for ourselves and for our relationships to have meaning.
Just skimming to two parts in the second to last paragraph, these two sentences, "I am often desperately looking inward to find the strength to go on", and "Accepting a constant stream of low quality things for most of my life, including interactions with other people, only contributed to the way my life has gone and the way I feel now" were really striking to the author's day-to-day. It sounds like he' struggling to doing what he needs to do and they're content with the way this is. We should want more for ourselves and for our relationships to have meaning.
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It's also possible to have a problem, and then that problem makes you depressed on top. But the depression is a symptom and focusing on it can come off as "everything is fine, there's just something wrong with your brain."
There are some difficult life transitions (real-world problems that are never going to go away) that can cause long-term feelings of grief that overlap clinically with depression. Maybe you need to take the time to process those feelings. Or maybe you don't have that luxury, you have bills to pay, so you're going to medicate those feelings away.
(Or maybe everything is fine, and there's just something wrong with your brain. But that's not for Internet randos to decide.)
There are some difficult life transitions (real-world problems that are never going to go away) that can cause long-term feelings of grief that overlap clinically with depression. Maybe you need to take the time to process those feelings. Or maybe you don't have that luxury, you have bills to pay, so you're going to medicate those feelings away.
(Or maybe everything is fine, and there's just something wrong with your brain. But that's not for Internet randos to decide.)
There are more mental illnesses / patterns etc. beyond clinical depression, but it's just the most prominent in people's minds. Here's an example: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/schizoid-pers... (note: I am not even speculating this is at all a diagnosis, merely pointing out that the symptoms you list are not exclusive to clinical depression). Of course, you can also have any combination.
I wish people would stop pathologizing a proper response to a fcked up situation.
Sceptics would say the DSM is excellent at doing that, so it's perhaps not a surprise when people jump to pathologies.
Yes it is more than depression alone. Although depression may be one component. It is also disenchantment and disconnect. Even a mild existential crisis maybe. And advice from people online is rarely helpful. He could try personal therapy or perhaps simply just live with it. We're all built in different ways, and we don't have to always react the same way to the world. In fact we can't... it is a pity that the world , like a complex program, is optimised for the happy path, and if you deviate, it starts to complain.
> the person is depressed
I often wonder if modern society is truly happier than past societies, but then wonder if I’m only thinking that because I’m depressed, and most people probably don’t wonder such things?
Life is certainly more complex than it has been in the past, and I don’t know if we’ve adapted to really handle it yet. It seems unlikely.
Of course there are many objective metrics that suggest we should be happier (life expectancy, infant mortality, etc) but maybe we’ve just moved the goal posts?
Are these kinds of thoughts limited to depressed people?
I often wonder if modern society is truly happier than past societies, but then wonder if I’m only thinking that because I’m depressed, and most people probably don’t wonder such things?
Life is certainly more complex than it has been in the past, and I don’t know if we’ve adapted to really handle it yet. It seems unlikely.
Of course there are many objective metrics that suggest we should be happier (life expectancy, infant mortality, etc) but maybe we’ve just moved the goal posts?
Are these kinds of thoughts limited to depressed people?
Those thoughts do not sound like depressed thoughts to me.
People in richer nations report to be happier and a higher life satisfaction than people from poorer nations. Most countries now have higher self reported life satisfaction and happiness than in the past.
Rates of mental health disorders haven't changed much during the last 30 years.
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/gdp-vs-happiness
https://ourworldindata.org/happiness-and-life-satisfaction
https://ourworldindata.org/global-mental-health
Rates of mental health disorders haven't changed much during the last 30 years.
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/gdp-vs-happiness
https://ourworldindata.org/happiness-and-life-satisfaction
https://ourworldindata.org/global-mental-health
As one of those who commented on the first article [1], I would still like to figure out how his problem could be solved from first principles if it isn't interpreted as depression.
>My ideas, my attitude, my life story, the difficulties I currently have in functioning- all of these things make me too different to fit in anywhere for more than a singular moment.
How could a social network be built to find the few people who think alike when that group doesn't have well-established labels?
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31859072
>My ideas, my attitude, my life story, the difficulties I currently have in functioning- all of these things make me too different to fit in anywhere for more than a singular moment.
How could a social network be built to find the few people who think alike when that group doesn't have well-established labels?
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31859072
> As one of those who commented on the first article [1], I would still like to figure out how his problem could be solved from first principles if it isn't interpreted as depression.
I think your parent's point wasn't "these are the wrong first principles to bring to the attempt to solve their problem", but rather "no-one who's only read this post is in a position meaningfully to try to solve their problem" (setting aside whether that's even the right goal).
I think your parent's point wasn't "these are the wrong first principles to bring to the attempt to solve their problem", but rather "no-one who's only read this post is in a position meaningfully to try to solve their problem" (setting aside whether that's even the right goal).
I agree with my parent that it's difficult to solve depression from first principles. However, I think that there is the possibility that OP is not depressed and just seeks like-minded company that is difficult to find. In that case, HN should have the knowledge to discuss a technical solution.
I am someone who feels a lot like him, and what you describe would be depressing beyond belief. I'm also not all that depressed. Some of us are able to be relatively content while always holding rational beliefs about how horrible many things are. I often think that the depressed are the rational ones, while those of us who function are broken in a useful way.
> In any case, I'm relieved to read that at least for the time being he has turned down HN's free access to a wall of zero-cost comments from pseudonymous engineers who voted up their favorite ways to problem-solve depression from first principles.
Such as offering the "clinical" diagnosis that he is depressed?
Such as offering the "clinical" diagnosis that he is depressed?
What's your problem? Are you some kind of oracle that knows down to the minutae of everything about everyone's life that you know what you said to be true?
How are you this confident? Who convinced you that you're right in any sense of the word?
Seems like you're projecting extremely hard. He is not you.
> In any case, I'm relieved to read that at least for the time being he has turned down HN's free access to a wall of zero-cost comments from pseudonymous engineers who voted up their favorite ways to problem-solve depression from first principles.
Maybe there's a hint of self-reflection here.
How are you this confident? Who convinced you that you're right in any sense of the word?
Seems like you're projecting extremely hard. He is not you.
> In any case, I'm relieved to read that at least for the time being he has turned down HN's free access to a wall of zero-cost comments from pseudonymous engineers who voted up their favorite ways to problem-solve depression from first principles.
Maybe there's a hint of self-reflection here.
the blog post meets some of the diagnostic criteria for depression, and while I would never jump to the conclusion and say it definitively, it’s something the writer should seriously consider and rule out
I'm... Displeased by these posts. I feel there is a lot of omission.
He claims that he holds views antithetical to what most believe, and that he feels isolated. However, he keeps 'the next part of the sentence' suspiciously absent.
Made up examples of 'the next part': 'I feel like no one shares my views or even thinks the same way as me. For example, I really enjoy tachyon physics. The problem is, the theory has fallen out of favour and it is hard to convince people to discuss the point.' Or 'I have no one to talk to. The last time I tried, I witnessed a friend be seriously hurt. Every time I try to approach someone, I think of that experience.'
In short, he doesn't give enough detail for his statements to hold meaning.
I can't really say why he does this. It could be a pride thing, or a disorder, or just not thinking to explain further. It's not the core point I want to focus on.
Whatever the reason, my issue is that he is surprised people are reading in extremist or isolations. However, affective language (is that the right word for it?) is almost designed to do that. Giving details is the best way to avoid the problem.
If you are reading this Mr Casper, please be specific about why you feel the way you feel.
He claims that he holds views antithetical to what most believe, and that he feels isolated. However, he keeps 'the next part of the sentence' suspiciously absent.
Made up examples of 'the next part': 'I feel like no one shares my views or even thinks the same way as me. For example, I really enjoy tachyon physics. The problem is, the theory has fallen out of favour and it is hard to convince people to discuss the point.' Or 'I have no one to talk to. The last time I tried, I witnessed a friend be seriously hurt. Every time I try to approach someone, I think of that experience.'
In short, he doesn't give enough detail for his statements to hold meaning.
I can't really say why he does this. It could be a pride thing, or a disorder, or just not thinking to explain further. It's not the core point I want to focus on.
Whatever the reason, my issue is that he is surprised people are reading in extremist or isolations. However, affective language (is that the right word for it?) is almost designed to do that. Giving details is the best way to avoid the problem.
If you are reading this Mr Casper, please be specific about why you feel the way you feel.
People share what they feel comfortable sharing. He has no responsibility to write a detailed analysis of his psychological state and ideological positions to satisfy you. His post was about alienation and he used himself as an example; it’s not his fault if half-wits on both sides of the political divide misinterpreted his writing and used it to attack a perceived enemy/propagandise their own position.
> He has no responsibility to write a detailed analysis of his psychological state and ideological positions to satisfy you.
Taking such a condescending stance (over what amounts to be etiquette) is ridiculous. It's not unusual, or even rude, to make an ask in a discussion-based forum. Ofc the choice to engage further, is voluntary.
Taking such a condescending stance (over what amounts to be etiquette) is ridiculous. It's not unusual, or even rude, to make an ask in a discussion-based forum. Ofc the choice to engage further, is voluntary.
With respect I don't agree at all.
Writers have a responsibility to ensure that they take reasonable steps to ensure the accuracy of their statements, and that those statements are clear.
The alternative of doing so is to state that public writing is of no consequence and that writers should be held unaccountable for their own actions.
This is obviously in contrast to the popular opinion, and for good reason: if you cannot disagree with a piece of writing, it limits your ability to engage with it.
Therefore, because his examples of alienation (to borrow your term) are incomplete, OPs omissions are an issue. While its true it conveys his base point (he's alone), it is difficult to answer any helpful questions around the point.
Examples of questions we can't answer: does the world need to change or him? Why? Would that help? If he isn't bothered by the state if affairs, why the melancholic tone? Is there more to the story? What initiated this isolation?
Regarding the 'sharing what one is comfortable sharing' - I would normally agree, but again, the tone makes me think a point resides somewhere. Therefore I think that's not the core issue.
Writers have a responsibility to ensure that they take reasonable steps to ensure the accuracy of their statements, and that those statements are clear.
The alternative of doing so is to state that public writing is of no consequence and that writers should be held unaccountable for their own actions.
This is obviously in contrast to the popular opinion, and for good reason: if you cannot disagree with a piece of writing, it limits your ability to engage with it.
Therefore, because his examples of alienation (to borrow your term) are incomplete, OPs omissions are an issue. While its true it conveys his base point (he's alone), it is difficult to answer any helpful questions around the point.
Examples of questions we can't answer: does the world need to change or him? Why? Would that help? If he isn't bothered by the state if affairs, why the melancholic tone? Is there more to the story? What initiated this isolation?
Regarding the 'sharing what one is comfortable sharing' - I would normally agree, but again, the tone makes me think a point resides somewhere. Therefore I think that's not the core issue.
> Writers have a responsibility to ensure that they take reasonable steps to ensure the accuracy of their statements, and that those statements are clear.
What a crazy take. Writers can write whatever they want. A book of poetry or prose doesn't have to meet some HN rationalist level of accuracy and rigour.
What a crazy take. Writers can write whatever they want. A book of poetry or prose doesn't have to meet some HN rationalist level of accuracy and rigour.
Writers can do whatever they want, sure, but actions which make their intention harder to parse also make it harder to engage with their work. Since writers who publish to the public want others to read their work, it becomes their responsibility in a capacity to write in a way that makes their intended message comprehensible.
Said another way, there is no law that forces me to write in English. I could interleave uncommon French and German across this comment (borrowing terms from other languages is nothing new!).
But if I flexed language proficiency without regard to which words are commonly known, it may make my comment less accessible, and therefore you may choose not to engage with what I'm saying or respond. That might not be a problem for me, but regardless the decision is my responsibility.
The responsibility for clarity does not come from someone else - it is an extension of the decision to publish.
This does extend to prose and poetry by the way. Both are written to conventions within the disciplines and follow patterns. Those patterns are very different to ordinary speech but they are certainly there, and readers judge writers on those merits.
It isn't to say a writer is lesser as a person for writing out of convention, but the convention provides a framework to interpret the art. If the convention isn't broken for a meaningful reason, it can detract from the wider message.
Said another way, there is no law that forces me to write in English. I could interleave uncommon French and German across this comment (borrowing terms from other languages is nothing new!).
But if I flexed language proficiency without regard to which words are commonly known, it may make my comment less accessible, and therefore you may choose not to engage with what I'm saying or respond. That might not be a problem for me, but regardless the decision is my responsibility.
The responsibility for clarity does not come from someone else - it is an extension of the decision to publish.
This does extend to prose and poetry by the way. Both are written to conventions within the disciplines and follow patterns. Those patterns are very different to ordinary speech but they are certainly there, and readers judge writers on those merits.
It isn't to say a writer is lesser as a person for writing out of convention, but the convention provides a framework to interpret the art. If the convention isn't broken for a meaningful reason, it can detract from the wider message.
> The alternative of doing so is to state that public writing is of no consequence and that writers should be held unaccountable for their own actions.
This "accountability" rhetoric conjures up an image of a one-man tribunal, hastily set up in the middle of the public square, demanding that passers-by submit to judgment.
Accountability goes both ways. Maybe you should provide an account for why you feel the need to hold others "accountable". Why not just ignore writing that you find too vague to be meaningful to you?
This "accountability" rhetoric conjures up an image of a one-man tribunal, hastily set up in the middle of the public square, demanding that passers-by submit to judgment.
Accountability goes both ways. Maybe you should provide an account for why you feel the need to hold others "accountable". Why not just ignore writing that you find too vague to be meaningful to you?
That's whataboutism, not a direct contradiction.
I didn't write the original post, so my comment is geared towards addressing that, rather than expositing my own views. In a similar way, your post is geared towards criticising mine, rather than justifying your own engagement - that's perfectly normal.
But, since you asked, I hold others accountable in the same way you do now. It is because I recognised behaviour I do jot agree with and I want the person to engage with the criticisms I have made and (hopefully) change their mind.
Framed this way, it is a constructive activity, not some tribunal activity as you describe. Again, if you cannot disagree with someone, you are very limited in how you can engage with them.
I didn't write the original post, so my comment is geared towards addressing that, rather than expositing my own views. In a similar way, your post is geared towards criticising mine, rather than justifying your own engagement - that's perfectly normal.
But, since you asked, I hold others accountable in the same way you do now. It is because I recognised behaviour I do jot agree with and I want the person to engage with the criticisms I have made and (hopefully) change their mind.
Framed this way, it is a constructive activity, not some tribunal activity as you describe. Again, if you cannot disagree with someone, you are very limited in how you can engage with them.
> Writers have a responsibility to ensure that they take reasonable steps to ensure the accuracy of their statements, and that those statements are clear.
Walking up riverrun, past Eve and Adam’s, James Joyce scoffs at your banality.
Lewis Carrol, astride a frumious bandersnatch, ignores tiresome linguistic catechisms such as yours, enjoying his frabjuous — and well-deserved — literary immortality.
Walking up riverrun, past Eve and Adam’s, James Joyce scoffs at your banality.
Lewis Carrol, astride a frumious bandersnatch, ignores tiresome linguistic catechisms such as yours, enjoying his frabjuous — and well-deserved — literary immortality.
James Joyce flexed on clarity as a literary feat.
Lewis Carrol used absurd scenarios to engage his child whom he wrote for.
The exception proves the rule.
Lewis Carrol used absurd scenarios to engage his child whom he wrote for.
The exception proves the rule.
> He has no responsibility to write a detailed analysis of his psychological state and ideological positions to satisfy you.
No one force him to do that... but that's what happens when he doesn't. You aren't forced to wear seatbelt (well bad example, as the law actually force you, but enough doesn't so my point still stand) but once you get into an accident, you'll be happy that you had it.
OP explains what happens when Casper is not specific enough... what Casper does with that information is up to him, but clearly, not wearing that seatbelt is hurting him right now enough to write theses blog spot.
No one force him to do that... but that's what happens when he doesn't. You aren't forced to wear seatbelt (well bad example, as the law actually force you, but enough doesn't so my point still stand) but once you get into an accident, you'll be happy that you had it.
OP explains what happens when Casper is not specific enough... what Casper does with that information is up to him, but clearly, not wearing that seatbelt is hurting him right now enough to write theses blog spot.
The discussion he's talking about in this post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31859072
Non-incel here (I swear, ignore the username) who read your post and some of the accompanying thread. Valid feelings, a little cringey, I hope you figure yourself out, but that's not what I want to comment about.
I spend more time than I should reading extremist content (ok, go ahead, look at the username) because I think the behavior of that crowd is fascinating and disturbingly influential. And sometimes it's funny. Also, they now set US policy, so maybe we should be paying attention.
> I will clear it up now: I am not any kind of incel, conspiracy theory believer, advocate of violence or racism, or follower of any dogma, philosophy, or charismatic person of any kind.
When people talk about "alt right pipeline", this is it, but casper isn't the perpetrator. He's the target.
Ok, not casper specifically. In those circles, they'd make fun of him blogging about his feelings for obvious reasons. Then they'd make fun of his artsy picture, then that he took down his picture, and once more if he puts it back up. The cycle of abuse would continue until he stops reacting to the crowd.
But it's a window into just how isolated people are and what it feels like to not have community. And we know there's millions or maybe tens of millions of people that feel this way and are nowhere near capable of articulating it.
It's so easy to imagine someone in his position be enticed a movement that has a consistent-ish ideology and purpose greater than yourself. And as a bonus, it comes with a group of regular guys that also hang out on discord or telegram all day and share memes. They might even meet up in the woods sometimes, just to drink some beers and bbq and shoot some guns once a month. Or "protect" an election or school board by providing "security". You know, community stuff.
> No, I am only interested in something real, whatever that may be.
So few can cope with this emotion by blogging about their feelings. For a lot of people "blame the others" seems to be the easiest way to cope with this feeling.
(Also, archive.org still has your picture up, either fix your link or remove the broken img tag. You just look like another @jack clone anyway and nobody cares.)
I spend more time than I should reading extremist content (ok, go ahead, look at the username) because I think the behavior of that crowd is fascinating and disturbingly influential. And sometimes it's funny. Also, they now set US policy, so maybe we should be paying attention.
> I will clear it up now: I am not any kind of incel, conspiracy theory believer, advocate of violence or racism, or follower of any dogma, philosophy, or charismatic person of any kind.
When people talk about "alt right pipeline", this is it, but casper isn't the perpetrator. He's the target.
Ok, not casper specifically. In those circles, they'd make fun of him blogging about his feelings for obvious reasons. Then they'd make fun of his artsy picture, then that he took down his picture, and once more if he puts it back up. The cycle of abuse would continue until he stops reacting to the crowd.
But it's a window into just how isolated people are and what it feels like to not have community. And we know there's millions or maybe tens of millions of people that feel this way and are nowhere near capable of articulating it.
It's so easy to imagine someone in his position be enticed a movement that has a consistent-ish ideology and purpose greater than yourself. And as a bonus, it comes with a group of regular guys that also hang out on discord or telegram all day and share memes. They might even meet up in the woods sometimes, just to drink some beers and bbq and shoot some guns once a month. Or "protect" an election or school board by providing "security". You know, community stuff.
> No, I am only interested in something real, whatever that may be.
So few can cope with this emotion by blogging about their feelings. For a lot of people "blame the others" seems to be the easiest way to cope with this feeling.
(Also, archive.org still has your picture up, either fix your link or remove the broken img tag. You just look like another @jack clone anyway and nobody cares.)
> When people talk about "alt right pipeline", this is it, but casper isn't the perpetrator. He's the target.
Some of us were on imageboards when pools were being closed. I am sure there's a number of people that don't understand that 'glowies' isn't meant to be serious, but a reference to someone who also used to post on hackernews. But I can assure you, at least pre us politics, most got that it was just dark humor.
Just like I will not accept that pepe the frog is some hate symbol, I will not accept that image boards are an alt right pipeline. If there is such a thing, they're mostly quarantined to a politics board. Who cares? Dont look at it if it bothers you.
Some of us were on imageboards when pools were being closed. I am sure there's a number of people that don't understand that 'glowies' isn't meant to be serious, but a reference to someone who also used to post on hackernews. But I can assure you, at least pre us politics, most got that it was just dark humor.
Just like I will not accept that pepe the frog is some hate symbol, I will not accept that image boards are an alt right pipeline. If there is such a thing, they're mostly quarantined to a politics board. Who cares? Dont look at it if it bothers you.
Sorry to single you out specifically, but you look like you've thought a lot about that kind of thing, so I'll ask. When you say:
> But it's a window into just how isolated people are and what it feels like to not have community.
What do you mean by community? I see this word everywhere online, and never really understood it. I think it's mostly an American thing, but I'm not sure. I can see how someone has family, friends, acquaintances from work or hobbies, but I don't get what's meant by "community".
> But it's a window into just how isolated people are and what it feels like to not have community.
What do you mean by community? I see this word everywhere online, and never really understood it. I think it's mostly an American thing, but I'm not sure. I can see how someone has family, friends, acquaintances from work or hobbies, but I don't get what's meant by "community".
I think the original article painted it pretty well. If you could disappear and nobody would notice, you probably aren't part of a community. Shared interests and activities definitely count if there's meaningful interaction happening. Work can be a type of community too.
The hallmarks of community IMO are some shared values, some shared purpose, recurring interactions, united under some named banner. A well functioning workplace can feel a lot like a thriving community.
I don't really have much in the way of community myself at the moment, but I have experienced it before. I think it's one of those things like sex where everyone who's never participated thinks it's a huge deal, but once you've been at it a little while, it's still important, but the framing shifts a lot.
It's one thing to be a stable loner that's not invested in any group, but it's another to desperately be seeking a community without the experience to know what's "normal". That's where the parasocial stuff starts happening.
The hallmarks of community IMO are some shared values, some shared purpose, recurring interactions, united under some named banner. A well functioning workplace can feel a lot like a thriving community.
I don't really have much in the way of community myself at the moment, but I have experienced it before. I think it's one of those things like sex where everyone who's never participated thinks it's a huge deal, but once you've been at it a little while, it's still important, but the framing shifts a lot.
It's one thing to be a stable loner that's not invested in any group, but it's another to desperately be seeking a community without the experience to know what's "normal". That's where the parasocial stuff starts happening.
My definition of community is, a group of people that is a source of new relationships. It's bigger than a circle of friends; a community is necessarily large enough that not everyone knows everyone. But it's also cohesive enough, that if you throw a party and invite a community, you have a reasonable sense of who (or at least what kind of people) are going to show up.
I used to be very depressed. And then I tried all kinds of different ways to get better. Exercising. Eating different. Sleeping more. Various self help techniques. Volunteering etc.
Then I tried getting a job and that forced me to meet a lot of new people, challenges, develop new skills. And it sucked and I smelled like a kitchen.
Didn’t solve my depression.
I didn’t meet anyone I identified with until I was like 33, when I joined a high tech company where I interacted with a lot of very creative and talented people. Then I realized I was actually very unique and the people I got along with were extremely rare.
Later, I also realized after significant research that I was high on the Asperger’s type spectrum plus ADHD.I learned I have to seek out very complex and varied situations which were challenging and highly stimulating.
Suspect this guy is wasting away because he may be similar and just bored completely out of his mind. Unfortunately, life does not help you much.
If you feel happy programming in isolation or whatever, there is no one to kick you in the ass and make you leave your house and do things you don’t want to do. And maybe accidentally meet new people…maybe.
More and more it feels like you have to create some completely custom lifestyle, maybe travel to conferences, music and events or do something risky.
If you made the mistake of buying a house in some super boring location with nothing going on, and in a location where very creative, intelligent, talented and motivated people hang out - you end up like this guy.
I can’t judge, I have been there several times.
I realized: “you know what, I am not happy because I need to be optimistic or exercise or whatever…my life literally sucks, I have no friends and I have no idea how to fix it.”
If you are in that situation, you might need to spend six months or more getting out of it, move somewhere better, switch careers, get new skills, take risks. No amount of creative writing gets you out of there.
Then I tried getting a job and that forced me to meet a lot of new people, challenges, develop new skills. And it sucked and I smelled like a kitchen.
Didn’t solve my depression.
I didn’t meet anyone I identified with until I was like 33, when I joined a high tech company where I interacted with a lot of very creative and talented people. Then I realized I was actually very unique and the people I got along with were extremely rare.
Later, I also realized after significant research that I was high on the Asperger’s type spectrum plus ADHD.I learned I have to seek out very complex and varied situations which were challenging and highly stimulating.
Suspect this guy is wasting away because he may be similar and just bored completely out of his mind. Unfortunately, life does not help you much.
If you feel happy programming in isolation or whatever, there is no one to kick you in the ass and make you leave your house and do things you don’t want to do. And maybe accidentally meet new people…maybe.
More and more it feels like you have to create some completely custom lifestyle, maybe travel to conferences, music and events or do something risky.
If you made the mistake of buying a house in some super boring location with nothing going on, and in a location where very creative, intelligent, talented and motivated people hang out - you end up like this guy.
I can’t judge, I have been there several times.
I realized: “you know what, I am not happy because I need to be optimistic or exercise or whatever…my life literally sucks, I have no friends and I have no idea how to fix it.”
If you are in that situation, you might need to spend six months or more getting out of it, move somewhere better, switch careers, get new skills, take risks. No amount of creative writing gets you out of there.
Any human being wants to "seek out very complex and varied situations which were challenging and highly stimulating", not many of them have an opportunity to do so. You are not interesting or unique (except that you have money of course).
People project all kinds of things onto people they see on the internet. I'm sorry you had to deal with so much of that. This is a good way to handle it.
It was cathartic to read and you're right about the projection.
In a kind of similar vein, I did some write-ups in the past where I analyzed controversial people and thought I'd do so without weighing in with my personal opinion on them.
So then I basically got a bunch of emails from socially-frustrated readers looking to relate to me as their new comrade, because we were both obviously fans of these controversial people.
It seems there are a lot of socially-frustrated people out there who don't read between the lines, and who also don't believe it's appropriate to even do anything that's in between any lines, so to speak. So I wonder if this is related to the social frustration...
In a kind of similar vein, I did some write-ups in the past where I analyzed controversial people and thought I'd do so without weighing in with my personal opinion on them.
So then I basically got a bunch of emails from socially-frustrated readers looking to relate to me as their new comrade, because we were both obviously fans of these controversial people.
It seems there are a lot of socially-frustrated people out there who don't read between the lines, and who also don't believe it's appropriate to even do anything that's in between any lines, so to speak. So I wonder if this is related to the social frustration...
This isn't tech news, its just a depressed person.
Since when does technology not effect a society's mental state?
So, another contender for the title of "Most vague HN title ever".
That's messed up? I was one of the ones who criticized him when this was originally posted, but that's wild to hear that people were this harsh.
I just read the post, and I don't see what's worth criticizing there? Sounds like he's suffering from depression and isolation, and navel-gazing on his situation in life. Has the post been edited or something? I'll admit, I am super tired while reading this, so maybe I skimmed over some troublesome metaphor that I would have caught if I had been more alert.
I am asking seriously; what did you criticize?
I am asking seriously; what did you criticize?
I mean, I'm using the very broadest definition of criticize, I don't think I said anything out of line.
It seems like he got messages of support from those groups who thought he was one of them, rather than people attacking him because they thought he was one of them.
Yeah it seems like what upset him is those people who think he, like them, has seen some truth in the fakeness/shallowness of other humans or society or something
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all to judge the person and not to reason on his words; if I point to the mountain, why are you talking about me? Im pointing to damned mountain, talk about the mountain, damn!
I wonder how you get to a point where you have nobody in your life who shares views, interests, etc.
Geez, sounds like an interesting person to talk to.
I would hate to feel that way about the world. I hope this person can find some community and connections worth living for.
valbaca(1)
He'd probably do well to find a local group where he can regularly listen, sit with emotions, reflect, talk, and be challenged if he tries using his intellect to deflect from sitting with or reflecting upon said emotions.
In any case, I'm relieved to read that at least for the time being he has turned down HN's free access to a wall of zero-cost comments from pseudonymous engineers who voted up their favorite ways to problem-solve depression from first principles.