Show HN: I made an app to help insomniacs learn how to sleep again(slumber.one)
slumber.one
Show HN: I made an app to help insomniacs learn how to sleep again
https://slumber.one
76 comments
$131.81 per 3 months with current sale price.
$188.30 otherwise
Feels steep for a CBT app where I gotta do all the work!
I sleep quite poorly, but I got to the checkout screen and.. nah. No doubt I'd drop that cash in an instant to sleep better. But I have little trust in filling out prompts and listening to rain sounds.
What has worked quite well for me is yoga nidra (guided meditation). Search YouTube for a voice you like (some have bg music I hate, or thick accents which put me off). I can't find the one I use, but I downloaded it to an mp3 on my phone (no auto play!) and it works almost every night. 20 min meditation and I've almost never heard the last 5 mins.
Edit: this is my fav https://youtu.be/7IEc3Y6D7BA
Feels steep for a CBT app where I gotta do all the work!
I sleep quite poorly, but I got to the checkout screen and.. nah. No doubt I'd drop that cash in an instant to sleep better. But I have little trust in filling out prompts and listening to rain sounds.
What has worked quite well for me is yoga nidra (guided meditation). Search YouTube for a voice you like (some have bg music I hate, or thick accents which put me off). I can't find the one I use, but I downloaded it to an mp3 on my phone (no auto play!) and it works almost every night. 20 min meditation and I've almost never heard the last 5 mins.
Edit: this is my fav https://youtu.be/7IEc3Y6D7BA
The problem I always found with guided meditation was that I would wake up once the guided meditation stopped and I would have slept so well in the 60 minutes during the meditation that I wouldn't be even remotely capable of falling asleep again.
Maybe the solution is a shorter one like you mentioned, so it only helps me get into that sleepy phase. I completely agree in its effectiveness though, I often violate almost every rule of good sleep hygiene and a guided medication will still do the job of getting me to sleep if I'm desperate.
Maybe the solution is a shorter one like you mentioned, so it only helps me get into that sleepy phase. I completely agree in its effectiveness though, I often violate almost every rule of good sleep hygiene and a guided medication will still do the job of getting me to sleep if I'm desperate.
Loop it?
Great to hear that you found something that works for you. If guided meditation works for you almost every night, then you should certainly stick with it! For many of our patients (including myself), guided meditation worked in the short term but then stopped working because it didn’t actually resolve their underlying insomnia (e.g., for me, a lot of my insomnia came from distortive thoughts I had about sleep).
Our app is different from pure meditation/relaxation apps that offer “rain sounds”. Instead, we go through a psychology-based program (behavioral therapy) that walks you through the underlying causes of insomnia, helps you address the ones that are relevant to you, and uses techniques like sleep restriction therapy to limit the amount of time you spend in bed.
I’ll give an example. Let’s say when you go to bed at night, you’re constantly thinking about unfinished todos or worrying about some big upcoming event. While meditation and “rain sounds” might help distract you enough to fall asleep, what if you stopped having those thoughts in bed in the first place? That’s what our app aims to do.
In terms of pricing, we do offer a free, 7-day trial and our price ends up being about $45 per month. In comparison, seeing an in-person treatment specialist costs about $150-200 per session without insurance, or $25-$50 per session with insurance. Typically, you would see an in-person specialist every week or every other week.
Our app is different from pure meditation/relaxation apps that offer “rain sounds”. Instead, we go through a psychology-based program (behavioral therapy) that walks you through the underlying causes of insomnia, helps you address the ones that are relevant to you, and uses techniques like sleep restriction therapy to limit the amount of time you spend in bed.
I’ll give an example. Let’s say when you go to bed at night, you’re constantly thinking about unfinished todos or worrying about some big upcoming event. While meditation and “rain sounds” might help distract you enough to fall asleep, what if you stopped having those thoughts in bed in the first place? That’s what our app aims to do.
In terms of pricing, we do offer a free, 7-day trial and our price ends up being about $45 per month. In comparison, seeing an in-person treatment specialist costs about $150-200 per session without insurance, or $25-$50 per session with insurance. Typically, you would see an in-person specialist every week or every other week.
What is the difference between the $131 plan the the lifetime access for $29 I found here:
https://checkout.stripe.com/pay/cs_live_b1WrHao6Sw3In1xSCzhG...
https://checkout.stripe.com/pay/cs_live_b1WrHao6Sw3In1xSCzhG...
The "rain sounds" crack I got from your only product image. It was literally "nature sounds" though.
I agree meditation is a bit of a short fix, but without knowing what this app really does, I have a difficult time trusting that it's anything more.
45/mo feels like a marketing trick when the minimum charged is $133 :(
There's definitely a mental block with paying hundreds of dollars for a phone app. Most apps on my phone remain unopened. I've tried a few health aids like this before.
I'd download a free/trial version if it helped me get any amount of of sleep back, and then with established trust, pay $20+/mo for access to rest of features.
Otherwise maybe sell through those specialists? Help them manage their patients.
I agree meditation is a bit of a short fix, but without knowing what this app really does, I have a difficult time trusting that it's anything more.
45/mo feels like a marketing trick when the minimum charged is $133 :(
There's definitely a mental block with paying hundreds of dollars for a phone app. Most apps on my phone remain unopened. I've tried a few health aids like this before.
I'd download a free/trial version if it helped me get any amount of of sleep back, and then with established trust, pay $20+/mo for access to rest of features.
Otherwise maybe sell through those specialists? Help them manage their patients.
Just wanted to +1 this, I did fill out the survey, but was a little disappointed to end up at a payment screen. Totally understand this is a service worth paying for, but being able to try it out for a bit before entering payment details would be nice.
I know I could hit cancel, but I am often bad at doing that on time, which leads me to avoid trying out things that require payment details up-front.
Thanks for sharing!
I know I could hit cancel, but I am often bad at doing that on time, which leads me to avoid trying out things that require payment details up-front.
Thanks for sharing!
Hijacking this comment to share another alternative: the app Balance (https://www.balanceapp.com/) has really great sleep meditation, a bit similar to Yoga Nidra. They're currently running a promo where you can choose how much you pay for your first year (incl. a free option). I've tried a lot of Youtube/Spotify before and Balance works better for me. Plus doesn't come with the risk of being blasted awake by the next video/song/ad when I forget to set a sleep timer.
They also have excellent meditation for naps, where you can set how long you want to nap before they wake you up.
They also have excellent meditation for naps, where you can set how long you want to nap before they wake you up.
Feels steep for a CBT app where I gotta do all the work!
I think you feel that way because you don't need the app enough. $188 to fix sleep when you're not getting enough is a bargain.
I think you feel that way because you don't need the app enough. $188 to fix sleep when you're not getting enough is a bargain.
You assume that it works.
$188 to not fix your sleep is not cheap.
$188 to not fix your sleep is not cheap.
Hi there, you're right that $188 is not cheap. That's why we offer a 7-day free trial so that you have some time to decide if our app is right for you. More importantly, we have a 30-day money-back guarantee and you can request for a refund, no questions asked.
Regarding efficacy, our program works for over 80% of our users and we're just as effective as in-person treatment. In comparison, seeing an in-person treatment specialist costs about $150-200 per session without insurance, or $25-$50 per session with insurance. Typically, you would see an in-person specialist every week or every other week.
That being said, we understand that not everyone can afford our program. Please email us at [email protected] if you have difficulty paying for our program and we can find something that works for you!
Regarding efficacy, our program works for over 80% of our users and we're just as effective as in-person treatment. In comparison, seeing an in-person treatment specialist costs about $150-200 per session without insurance, or $25-$50 per session with insurance. Typically, you would see an in-person specialist every week or every other week.
That being said, we understand that not everyone can afford our program. Please email us at [email protected] if you have difficulty paying for our program and we can find something that works for you!
Of course you have double blinded independent studies to back up your rather amazing claim that it works for over 80% of your users.
I've paid many thousands over my life time to improve my sleep. I almost blindly clicked BUY on this for $188. But given what it is I have great doubts. It's a bit steep for a dice roll.
I tried a guided meditation app and the lady strayed talking about my tongue and my eyeballs. Weird
Oh, look - another click-through questionnaire that ultimately leads you to a payment page.
For anyone looking for actual free advice, check out the Huberman lab podcast or Matt Walker's sleep podcast. I struggled with insomnia for a brief period, and luckily, my fix was simple. All it took was more time outdoors and not eating close to bedtime. I went from having trouble falling asleep and waking up in the middle of the night 3-4 times a week to sleeping through the night, and now I can't remember the last time I woke up in the middle of the night.
Most of my time is spent indoors, working indoors, and exercising indoors at the gym. So my fix was as easy as spending more time outside. Most mornings, I walk out around sunrise or shortly after that. Try also to do an afternoon walk or spend time outside doing whatever it may be. Also stopped eating 3-4 hours before bedtime.
Stopping the late meals was huge for me, and I notice now that when I wake up in the middle of the night, it usually coincides with a night of lots of food and drink before bed.
Indeed, we're all different, so I'm not saying what worked for me will work for you but it may be worth trying as my recommendations are free and easy to implement, and also backed by research that the podcasts I mentioned go into great detail about. Best of luck to anyone struggling, and I hope you can leverage the many free resources out there.
For anyone looking for actual free advice, check out the Huberman lab podcast or Matt Walker's sleep podcast. I struggled with insomnia for a brief period, and luckily, my fix was simple. All it took was more time outdoors and not eating close to bedtime. I went from having trouble falling asleep and waking up in the middle of the night 3-4 times a week to sleeping through the night, and now I can't remember the last time I woke up in the middle of the night.
Most of my time is spent indoors, working indoors, and exercising indoors at the gym. So my fix was as easy as spending more time outside. Most mornings, I walk out around sunrise or shortly after that. Try also to do an afternoon walk or spend time outside doing whatever it may be. Also stopped eating 3-4 hours before bedtime.
Stopping the late meals was huge for me, and I notice now that when I wake up in the middle of the night, it usually coincides with a night of lots of food and drink before bed.
Indeed, we're all different, so I'm not saying what worked for me will work for you but it may be worth trying as my recommendations are free and easy to implement, and also backed by research that the podcasts I mentioned go into great detail about. Best of luck to anyone struggling, and I hope you can leverage the many free resources out there.
I recalled this site: https://fixsleep.link/ just a bunch of advices based on peer-reviewed studies for this exact purpose, no buttons, nu subscriptions, just simple design and 17 advices
Lots of great advice in here.
I am curious about: Turn on the lights to 100% 30 minutes before waking up.
Has anyone actually tried that? I do have Hue lights in my room so I could set it up. But I'm really sensitive to light (even the barest light shining through a crack in a window will wake me up). I think this would just wake me up 30 minutes earlier and it sounds pretty awful.
I am curious about: Turn on the lights to 100% 30 minutes before waking up.
Has anyone actually tried that? I do have Hue lights in my room so I could set it up. But I'm really sensitive to light (even the barest light shining through a crack in a window will wake me up). I think this would just wake me up 30 minutes earlier and it sounds pretty awful.
I'm doing this for two years now with my hue lights and the wake up function.
It's so much better than waking by an alarm. It gradually lights up your room and starts 30 minutes before wake up time. I do however most of the time wake up when it starts lighting up the room.
It's so much better than waking by an alarm. It gradually lights up your room and starts 30 minutes before wake up time. I do however most of the time wake up when it starts lighting up the room.
Interesting. I’m going to try it out.
It's hard if your bed time varies. If you go to sleep at 3 am, a lamp that turns on at 7 am will not help. What you can do is sleep as much as you need and then when you wake up but are still in bed, turn on the lamp yourself. After some time you will really feel how the brain turns on.
It's interesting to see how much of this common advice doesn't apply to certain people. For example:
1) Cooldown the room to 17°-18° C before sleep
That's freezing. I have trouble sleeping if it's colder than 23°-24° C
2) Warm up the room to ~22° C before waking up
Yeah, that's already too cold.
3) Don't consume calories 3 hours before bed
I can't fall asleep hungry (unless I'm dead tired I guess), so if I'm still hungry when it's time for sleep I better go eat.
4) Forget about the snooze button and setting multiple alarms
I can just as well forget about waking up for whatever it is that I need to wake up for.
--------
Still - all of this is worth trying. It probably does help most of the poeple.
1) Cooldown the room to 17°-18° C before sleep
That's freezing. I have trouble sleeping if it's colder than 23°-24° C
2) Warm up the room to ~22° C before waking up
Yeah, that's already too cold.
3) Don't consume calories 3 hours before bed
I can't fall asleep hungry (unless I'm dead tired I guess), so if I'm still hungry when it's time for sleep I better go eat.
4) Forget about the snooze button and setting multiple alarms
I can just as well forget about waking up for whatever it is that I need to wake up for.
--------
Still - all of this is worth trying. It probably does help most of the poeple.
Related to your eating: hours when you are hungry are more related to a hormone, it is generated usually at the same time, like routine, that's why often if somebody waits 1-2hours after the hungry feeling, it disappears or why even if you are full you can still feel the need to eat more.
If you want to not eat at night, you just need to stop eating at night ANY calories and after some time your organism will adapt. You can try time restricted eating - eat how much you like in a limited period of time, like 6-8 hour window. It'll help with reducing hunger that you feel during the day
I actually don't have any desire to stop eating at night. I haven't noticed any reduction in sleep quality compared to when I don't eat late and I'm not overweight, so no need to cut down on eating in general. But thanks, what you wrote is pretty interesting nonetheless.
I am curious about your sleep temperature. Have you tried to sleep in a cold room but with warm covers (good isolation).
This is nirvana for me, I sleep best that way.
If I do not have warm covers I do not sleep well (pour when it is too hot). I also cannot sleep naked, I need to cover my shoulders with a tshirt otherwise I am always cold.
I always wondered how much psychological this is but I do not want to experiment with my sleep.
This is nirvana for me, I sleep best that way.
If I do not have warm covers I do not sleep well (pour when it is too hot). I also cannot sleep naked, I need to cover my shoulders with a tshirt otherwise I am always cold.
I always wondered how much psychological this is but I do not want to experiment with my sleep.
> Have you tried to sleep in a cold room but with warm covers (good isolation).
Most of my childhood and teenage life (before I moved out of my parents home), since almost nobody heats bedrooms where I live.
With lower temperatures, I have to wear very warm shirts/sweater as I inevitably uncover my shoulders and pull my arm out of cover. Getting into cold bed is uncomfortable. Getting out when the room is cold is even worse. Also, cold bedrooms are terrible for sex (for me at least).
This is all solved by heating the room nicely. Mind you, I still use relatively warm cover (light clothing, though) when bedroom temperature is 23°-24° (during the winter). Right now it's 26° and light cover is fine.
Most of my childhood and teenage life (before I moved out of my parents home), since almost nobody heats bedrooms where I live.
With lower temperatures, I have to wear very warm shirts/sweater as I inevitably uncover my shoulders and pull my arm out of cover. Getting into cold bed is uncomfortable. Getting out when the room is cold is even worse. Also, cold bedrooms are terrible for sex (for me at least).
This is all solved by heating the room nicely. Mind you, I still use relatively warm cover (light clothing, though) when bedroom temperature is 23°-24° (during the winter). Right now it's 26° and light cover is fine.
I've had insomnia for years, cured it with one hard rule: wake up everyday at the same time. Every other adaptation was extra.
I read about the rule in The Effortless Sleep Method by Sasha Stephens.
I read about the rule in The Effortless Sleep Method by Sasha Stephens.
Yes one other trick that has worked for me is you put alarm for sleep not waking up.
So i put three alarms in alexa everyday at 7:30pm, 8:00pm and 8:30pm where alexa says "time to sleep, I'm reminding you time to sleep for a great day tomorrow and last is final reminder, it's time to sleep." respectively.
I have seen that 3 reminders to sleep does it and we all go to bed always before the 3rd reminder. I have never slept before 4am otherwise. So weird a robot voice can have this effect, but its the only thing that was able to fix my sleep schedule.
The only con is when you have guests over and alexa starts speaking like this, it can make things very weird and people feel we are trying to make them leave :P
So i put three alarms in alexa everyday at 7:30pm, 8:00pm and 8:30pm where alexa says "time to sleep, I'm reminding you time to sleep for a great day tomorrow and last is final reminder, it's time to sleep." respectively.
I have seen that 3 reminders to sleep does it and we all go to bed always before the 3rd reminder. I have never slept before 4am otherwise. So weird a robot voice can have this effect, but its the only thing that was able to fix my sleep schedule.
The only con is when you have guests over and alexa starts speaking like this, it can make things very weird and people feel we are trying to make them leave :P
Wow, sleeping at 7:30pm or even 8 is super early. Lucky you! I assume you don’t live in a city.
Not OP, but where I am in the tropics it's quite common for everybody to go to bed at 8 or 8:30 and get up at 5. It gets dark at 5:45pm every day and light at 5:30am, so by getting up at 5 you optimize your daylight hours. Also it's cooler before the sun is fully blazing at 9:30am, so the early morning hours are best for jogging, outdoor errands, etc.
Definitely worth optimising for daylight hours if you're only getting 15 minutes of it!
Doh! Edited.
I used to have really bad insomnia as well, and completely agree with this.
Also:
* Get up early (like 6AM early)
* Avoid stimulants (caffeine etc) after midday (I used to drink tea/coffee in the evening, and then wonder why I couldn't sleep)
* Get a dog (helps with the getting up early part, also makes you do exercise)
* Get technology out of your bedroom (a lamp is ok, but get rid of the TV, leave your phone/tablet/laptop in another room while you sleep)
It really isn't rocket science.
Also:
* Get up early (like 6AM early)
* Avoid stimulants (caffeine etc) after midday (I used to drink tea/coffee in the evening, and then wonder why I couldn't sleep)
* Get a dog (helps with the getting up early part, also makes you do exercise)
* Get technology out of your bedroom (a lamp is ok, but get rid of the TV, leave your phone/tablet/laptop in another room while you sleep)
It really isn't rocket science.
[deleted]
What if you wake up in the middle of the night? I can go to bed consistently and easily - the problem is I'll wake up at 2am and not be able to go back to sleep. Sleep hygiene doesn't solve it for me.
It's hard to find out what causes not sleeping throughout the night. Personally I had to:
- Cut out food and drink 6 hours before bedtime (even limiting water). This minimized my body waking me up for many digestive/expulsion issues. Now 3 hours before bedtime is enough.
- Read novels with vocalization in your head that aren't too exciting one hour before bedtime. The reading slowed my thinking and minimized waking up with racing thoughts. I now need 15-30 minutes of reading to fall asleep.
- Took 2 months of applying this daily before I could sleep through the night.
Good luck finding out what helps you!
Good luck finding out what helps you!
Glad that this rule works for you! There are also other rules you might find helpful as part of stimulus control. For example:
1. Use the bed only for sleep and sex 2. Get out of bed if unable to fall asleep within 20 minutes 3. Have a plan-of-action for what to do if woken up in the middle of the night
That being said, behavioral therapy for insomnia is not just about stimulus control or sleep hygiene. This is because there is little evidence that sleep hygiene alone is sufficient to treat chronic insomnia. Instead, we use a multi-component therapy that includes cognitive restructuring, sleep restriction or consolidation, and relaxation techniques.
You can read more about it at https://slumber.one/how-does-cbt-i-work.
1. Use the bed only for sleep and sex 2. Get out of bed if unable to fall asleep within 20 minutes 3. Have a plan-of-action for what to do if woken up in the middle of the night
That being said, behavioral therapy for insomnia is not just about stimulus control or sleep hygiene. This is because there is little evidence that sleep hygiene alone is sufficient to treat chronic insomnia. Instead, we use a multi-component therapy that includes cognitive restructuring, sleep restriction or consolidation, and relaxation techniques.
You can read more about it at https://slumber.one/how-does-cbt-i-work.
>Get out of bed if unable to fall asleep within 20 minutes
So basically, never sleep?
So basically, never sleep?
No, the point is that if you're not asleep within 20 minutes you should wind down more outside of bed and try again. it helps me to reinforce the "no phone/reading/whatever" in bed rules, and means I don't lie awake for hours in bed - I get up and read in the living room for an hour and try again.
I've tried this method. It involves me sitting somewhere else until 6am not being able to sleep instead of my bed.
Exploitative. This is a free app I've used on iOS that implements the same CBT-i techniques: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/cbt-i-coach/id655918660 Not pretty but works perfectly!
At $45 per month, you must only be interested in helping affluent people in HCOL cities.
Otherwise, that's a truly baffling out of touch price point, especially for an app which requires little interaction with individual paying users on the back end.
I've seen you justify it multiple times by saying 'people pay more to see people in person', but, and I mean this in honest good faith, that just reads as you saying:'people who suffer from insomnia will pay us whatever high price we decide because they are miserable and we offer a glimmer of hope.'
That said, I hope it takes off and reaches a scale where you can lower your cost of entry, and this helps many people.
Otherwise, that's a truly baffling out of touch price point, especially for an app which requires little interaction with individual paying users on the back end.
I've seen you justify it multiple times by saying 'people pay more to see people in person', but, and I mean this in honest good faith, that just reads as you saying:'people who suffer from insomnia will pay us whatever high price we decide because they are miserable and we offer a glimmer of hope.'
That said, I hope it takes off and reaches a scale where you can lower your cost of entry, and this helps many people.
I often don't sleep much. I roughly follow your 'don't stay in bed for more than 20 minutes if you're not sleeping' rule. My reasoning is something like, 'if you're lying in bed and _trying_ to sleep, it means your body needs something else more than sleep, such as, moving around, sitting up, managing anxiety or other emotions, etc.' Then I come back later when I don't have to try.
How do you think that fits in line with your understanding of the research?
(Also, your $45pm price point is way out of my budget. Maybe if I was managing less well with my own methods I would be desperate enough to spend that much)
How do you think that fits in line with your understanding of the research?
(Also, your $45pm price point is way out of my budget. Maybe if I was managing less well with my own methods I would be desperate enough to spend that much)
This is a great rule to follow, and for precisely the right reasons. Staying in bed trying to force yourself to sleep is generally counterproductive, because (1) over the long-run, that creates a negative association in your mind between your bed and being a place of wakefulness, and (2) trying but failing to fall asleep might make you anxious/stressed about not being able to fall asleep, which could put you into a negative feedback cycle that makes it even harder for fall asleep.
Joe, we do have patient assistance plans available to make our app accessible to everyone. If you email us at [email protected] and mention that Ed from HN sent you, we'd be more than happy to help.
Joe, we do have patient assistance plans available to make our app accessible to everyone. If you email us at [email protected] and mention that Ed from HN sent you, we'd be more than happy to help.
I've used (and had a recommendation of someone who really struggled with sleeping) https://www.ptsd.va.gov/appvid/mobile/insomnia_coach.asp and it was really good. My sleep wasn't so bad, but this did make a big difference and helped reset a few things around sleep. Worth a look for anyone interested
As a life-long insomniac, I used to get very angry with the CBT-I treatment. It was only recently when Dr Matthew Walker mentioned in a podcast "it's the best treatment we have today" that I decided to take that for what it is.
CBT-I is not a cure for insomnia, it's sleep hygiene by a better name. There is no reason to pay a huge monthly fee for a CBT-I app. Sorry OP. This is something anybody can do themselves with a bit of research. If you are going to a "sleep therapist" it is also probably 70% of what you will hear, the other 30% likely will be how maybe you have apnea. I'm so saddened that this is the state of sleep science (which is why I started my start-up - more below).
I'm not saying sleep hygiene isn't good, it is important, just like brushing your teeth and not eating too much sugar. But those are the basics for a healthy lifestyle, not some genius treatment for an illness.
Sleep restriction therapy is a different beast all together. It is actively harmful to restrict your sleep. The damage is not worth the benefit. And yes, we are very aware that lack of sleep is damaging, so why do we recommend people do this?
I did find it interesting that you bought an EEG device, and curious if you learned anything from it, aside from how difficult it can be to sleep with a "research grade EEG device".
I'm in the neurotech/sleeptech space as the co-founder of https://soundmind.co - we are NOT in the insomnia space, we focus on improving the neurological function of your brain during sleep.
CBT-I is not a cure for insomnia, it's sleep hygiene by a better name. There is no reason to pay a huge monthly fee for a CBT-I app. Sorry OP. This is something anybody can do themselves with a bit of research. If you are going to a "sleep therapist" it is also probably 70% of what you will hear, the other 30% likely will be how maybe you have apnea. I'm so saddened that this is the state of sleep science (which is why I started my start-up - more below).
I'm not saying sleep hygiene isn't good, it is important, just like brushing your teeth and not eating too much sugar. But those are the basics for a healthy lifestyle, not some genius treatment for an illness.
Sleep restriction therapy is a different beast all together. It is actively harmful to restrict your sleep. The damage is not worth the benefit. And yes, we are very aware that lack of sleep is damaging, so why do we recommend people do this?
I did find it interesting that you bought an EEG device, and curious if you learned anything from it, aside from how difficult it can be to sleep with a "research grade EEG device".
I'm in the neurotech/sleeptech space as the co-founder of https://soundmind.co - we are NOT in the insomnia space, we focus on improving the neurological function of your brain during sleep.
Pete, thanks for sharing your thoughts.
CBT-I isn’t just “sleep hygiene by a better name”. Sleep hygiene is one component of CBT-I, but there are several other components to it like cognitive restructuring, stimulus control, sleep restriction…etc. Here are a few articles that you might find helpful: https://slumber.one/how-does-cbt-i-work, https://www.sleepfoundation.org/insomnia/treatment/cognitive...
The latest research confirms that CBT-I with sleep restriction therapy is an effective treatment for insomnia: (here’s a meta-analysis you might find helpful https://bmcprimcare.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-... and here’s an article by the American Academy of Sleep Medicine https://sleepeducation.org/sleep-restriction-therapy-insomni...). From our conversations with our clinical advisors and sleep experts, for the right patient, sleep restriction remains an important and effective tool in using behavioral therapy to treat insomnia and has worked for tens of thousands of patients.
While I empathize with you that there could be more research done in the sleep space, behavioral therapy for insomnia and sleep restriction therapy are both highly proven both by sleep researchers and in real-world clinical practice.
CBT-I isn’t just “sleep hygiene by a better name”. Sleep hygiene is one component of CBT-I, but there are several other components to it like cognitive restructuring, stimulus control, sleep restriction…etc. Here are a few articles that you might find helpful: https://slumber.one/how-does-cbt-i-work, https://www.sleepfoundation.org/insomnia/treatment/cognitive...
The latest research confirms that CBT-I with sleep restriction therapy is an effective treatment for insomnia: (here’s a meta-analysis you might find helpful https://bmcprimcare.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-... and here’s an article by the American Academy of Sleep Medicine https://sleepeducation.org/sleep-restriction-therapy-insomni...). From our conversations with our clinical advisors and sleep experts, for the right patient, sleep restriction remains an important and effective tool in using behavioral therapy to treat insomnia and has worked for tens of thousands of patients.
While I empathize with you that there could be more research done in the sleep space, behavioral therapy for insomnia and sleep restriction therapy are both highly proven both by sleep researchers and in real-world clinical practice.
This is one of the worst sites I have ever been on. That survey is tooooo much. And marketing messages during the survey? Seriously? Disgusting.
Hi! Thanks for your feedback! We were partly inspired by Noom (https://www.noom.com/) and the success they have with longer surveys and embedding marketing messages in the interstitial. That being said, we're still iterating and learning. I think the hardest part for us is striking a balance between keeping the survey short but still informative so that it is useful to our users.
Normally I avoid sites like Noom for life, even after they get rid of the surveys.
This has some kind of neurolinguistic programming/hypnotism feel where someone is trying to nonconsensually take your money. It's like a salesman asking you if you have problems, and they're always trying to reinforce in your mind that you have problems that go away once you give them the money.
It just feels really creepy and dirty.
With CBT, the user putting a lot of trust in the app and this feels like a violation of the trust before anything starts.
This has some kind of neurolinguistic programming/hypnotism feel where someone is trying to nonconsensually take your money. It's like a salesman asking you if you have problems, and they're always trying to reinforce in your mind that you have problems that go away once you give them the money.
It just feels really creepy and dirty.
With CBT, the user putting a lot of trust in the app and this feels like a violation of the trust before anything starts.
*With CBT, the user putting a lot of trust in the app and this feels like a violation of the trust before anything starts.*
My exact feeling here.
My exact feeling here.
This trend is the worst thing in apps. Stop it. Just show me what you offer and how much it is. Your users are smart and they want a solution to a problem. Don’t treat them like they are stupid.
I felt the same as this comment, it's off putting. Marketing tactics everywhere using information we enter in a survey.
No pricing shown until the end. University logos to show social proof.
I'm sure it's a well thought product, but in some ways it looks scammy. It also looks wildly overpriced for an automated product, comparing it to an actual doctor you can talk to is a fallacy.
By the way, how can we delete our information if we don't buy and we got to the end of the survey?
Thanks!
Maybe you should mention above that you optimize your app mainly towards making profit, not helping people sleep.
1. It’s hard for me to go a night without waking up repeatedly while tossing and turning. So I don’t know how to answer how many hours of sleep I’m getting. I think I’m mostly asleep, but the sleep is terrible quality? Unclear whether your program will help with this.
2. I would love to try your program but I’m not giving you my cc up front. Have you considered moving the payment form to after a trial ends?
3. Love that you are using a scientifically-backed approach to solve this problem and make that crystal clear!
2. I would love to try your program but I’m not giving you my cc up front. Have you considered moving the payment form to after a trial ends?
3. Love that you are using a scientifically-backed approach to solve this problem and make that crystal clear!
What EEG device were you using? Is it the OpenBCI Cyton, by any chance?
I'm currently working with a similar ADS1299-based device, but I've still got a lot of work to do on it.
I'm currently working with a similar ADS1299-based device, but I've still got a lot of work to do on it.
I stopped a few pages into the survey. What is up with this ridiculous trend? I automatically hate any app that does this. Stop treating your users like idiots.
Hi! Thanks for your feedback! We were partly inspired by Noom (https://www.noom.com/) and the success they have with longer surveys. That being said, we're definitely hearing the feedback here, and will look into either how we can simplify our survey or offer an option to bypass it.
I got into the first startupschool batch with this idea. But health problems sabotaged me so it never went anywhere.
The website looks too amateurish and generic. Doesn’t give me a lot of confidence about the product. You should redo it completely.
I think the key to success is finding the right partnerships. Doctors and clinics who will refer patients to your app. So that grant you got is a great first step.
The website looks too amateurish and generic. Doesn’t give me a lot of confidence about the product. You should redo it completely.
I think the key to success is finding the right partnerships. Doctors and clinics who will refer patients to your app. So that grant you got is a great first step.
What solved it for me was trying meditation, just of my own accord. I wasn't even trying to sleep, but nearly blacked out 3 times in 20 minutes just clearing my mind and focusing on my breathing in a dark room. After that I just do the same thing in bed and it works a treat. Before I figured this out it felt like I forgot how to sleep.
Price is way, way, way too high.
How do you cancel subscription? There is no clear way to do it.
I feel that apps like this only apply when the cause is anxiety.
CBD has worked wonders for me and my sleep, though I realize that it’s still not legal everywhere.
CBD has worked wonders for me and my sleep, though I realize that it’s still not legal everywhere.
Love seeing people recognise a problem (the time it takes to wait to see a specialist) and then solve it themselves.
I'm interested what you used to build this?
I'm interested what you used to build this?
Glad that this resonates with you! The long waiting time it takes to see a specialist is exactly why we decided to build this app. My primary care doctor actually told me that he was often forced to choose between putting his patients with insomnia on months-long waiting list to see a therapist (which is the recommended first line treatment) and prescribing sleeping pills, and neither is desirable. Many of the sleep therapists we worked with to develop the program have also told us that they are so backed up with requests for sleep help, especially during COVID.
We used Flutter for the mobile app, and it's Django in the backend with Postgres as our database. Our infrastructure is hosted on GCP. This is actually my first time building on flutter and was pleasantly surprised by how solid the developer experience was. I was choosing between react native and flutter, but had a terrible experience with react native for one of my projects back in college, so decided to give flutter a try.
We used Flutter for the mobile app, and it's Django in the backend with Postgres as our database. Our infrastructure is hosted on GCP. This is actually my first time building on flutter and was pleasantly surprised by how solid the developer experience was. I was choosing between react native and flutter, but had a terrible experience with react native for one of my projects back in college, so decided to give flutter a try.
How is this even a “show HN”? Literally just a thinly disguised money/data grab.
Nope.
Nope.
What’s the price of the subscription?
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We offer a 7-day free trial after which we charge about $45 per month. In comparison, seeing an in-person treatment specialist costs about $150-200 per session without insurance, or $25-$50 per session with insurance. Typically, you would see an in-person specialist every week or every other week.
You aren't competing against in person therapy though, you're an app. This is an insane leap of logic.
I wish you luck but I don't see it happening for your at these rates.
I wish you luck but I don't see it happening for your at these rates.
Hi there, you're right that we're not competing against in-person therapy and many patients might prefer having an actual specialist to talk to. That being said, our program works for over 80% of our users and we're just as effective as in-person treatment. We're also running a clinical study with Harvard Medical School and Brigham and Women's Hospital to prove the efficacy of our program.
We understand that not everyone can afford our program. Please email us at [email protected] if you have difficulty paying for our program and we can find something that works for you!
We understand that not everyone can afford our program. Please email us at [email protected] if you have difficulty paying for our program and we can find something that works for you!
Thanks! I would’ve liked to see this up front before filling out a really long survey so I could see if it’s something I can budget for after the free trial.
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thank you. Sleeping less than 5 hours on average.This is exactly what i need.
Glad that you find our app helpful! Please feel free to reach out at [email protected] if you have any questions or feedback :D
Very very slow, and I ain't entering my card information. No thanks.
In the day, it took an immense amount of energy for me to perform even the most mundane of tasks, such as doing my laundry or ordering groceries. At night, I felt an overwhelming sense of loneliness and resentment as I lay in bed wide-awake, reading and re-reading Sleep by Murakami or mindlessly scrolling through reddit/ HN. My performance at work suffered, my personal relationships suffered, and my happiness suffered.
When I finally decided to see a sleep specialist, I was put on a 3-month long waiting list. Eventually, I was able to get my insomnia treated, but I realized that there is no reason why anyone should wait 3 months to get treatment when the same therapy that I received can be delivered online. My co-founder and I both have experience in digital health, so we decided to partner with sleep experts to create a mobile app to help people with insomnia get better sleep using psychology.
We launched in February this year, and have already helped over 500 patients improve their sleep permanently. Our data shows that our program is just as effective as group, in-person sleep therapy, and we’re doing a clinical study with Brigham and Women’s hospital and Harvard Medical School to prove the efficacy of our product. On average, our users sleep 74 minutes longer than before and spend 52% less time awake in the middle of the night.
If you have trouble with sleep, try our app and let us know what you think!