A new trade and liberal arts school: “College of St. Joseph the Worker”(collegeofstjoseph.com)
collegeofstjoseph.com
A new trade and liberal arts school: “College of St. Joseph the Worker”
https://www.collegeofstjoseph.com
255 comments
>>> People have been swearing up and down for over a decade that the US graduates far more people with bachelors degrees than we "need", and that more parents[0] should be encouraging their kids to learn a trade.
The trades are not without their issues, however. Many of them are physical jobs. The trades people who have come to work at my house, if they're my age (58) are hobbling and broken. Their hands look like hell. Many are sunburned. Many if not most of them work for tiny businesses that receive virtually no oversight.
Encouraging the trades might make sense in a country with a strong safety net, free health care, better labor laws, stronger unions. The American public figures who are promoting the trades also tend to be doing nothing about those things, or are even opposed to them. I've heard that the trades are a good option in Europe.
The trades are not without their issues, however. Many of them are physical jobs. The trades people who have come to work at my house, if they're my age (58) are hobbling and broken. Their hands look like hell. Many are sunburned. Many if not most of them work for tiny businesses that receive virtually no oversight.
Encouraging the trades might make sense in a country with a strong safety net, free health care, better labor laws, stronger unions. The American public figures who are promoting the trades also tend to be doing nothing about those things, or are even opposed to them. I've heard that the trades are a good option in Europe.
> Encouraging the trades might make sense in a country with a strong safety net, free health care, better labor laws, stronger unions.
This is just my own observation, but the tradesmen I've seen do OK in the US are those that own and run their own business -- even those that have just 1 tradesperson working. Think "Inland Plumbing LLC" run by a guy and his wife out of their house. Yes, many trades are back-breaking work. I have a relative who was a home inspector for years (crawling around in attics, crawl spaces, and roofs all day is exhausting), and he did struggle at times to pay to raise several kids.
Owner-operator electricians and plumbers in particular (and especially those rated for commercial work) can do very well.
This is just my own observation, but the tradesmen I've seen do OK in the US are those that own and run their own business -- even those that have just 1 tradesperson working. Think "Inland Plumbing LLC" run by a guy and his wife out of their house. Yes, many trades are back-breaking work. I have a relative who was a home inspector for years (crawling around in attics, crawl spaces, and roofs all day is exhausting), and he did struggle at times to pay to raise several kids.
Owner-operator electricians and plumbers in particular (and especially those rated for commercial work) can do very well.
The biggest problem (and not everyone sees it as one) with the trades is that there's a lot less opportunities to coast through middle age without putting in effort ahead of time.
You only see the 58yo that comes to unclog your drain. You don't see the 58yo who's name is on the van. You don't see the one who has some comfy job as a building manager for some commercial facility.
You only see the 58yo that comes to unclog your drain. You don't see the 58yo who's name is on the van. You don't see the one who has some comfy job as a building manager for some commercial facility.
The local tradies in Australia, -definitely- do okay.
To add, there are so many kids that go to college just because it’s suppose to be the next chapter of life.
Allowing people to learn trades while still having “the college experience” I think would fix this.
Allowing people to learn trades while still having “the college experience” I think would fix this.
Kids go to college because even despite the wildly unacceptable costs, it remains the single best investment a person can make in their future earning potential. They go to college because it is actually very likely the correct decision with the information they have at the time.
If this were true, and most kids are doing a cost/benefit analysis about future wealth, then we would say far more engineering/math majors.
College is the best investment a young person can make even outside of STEM. Obviously the odds of financial upside varies discipline to discipline, but within most of them, college degrees are worth the money as compared to not getting a college degree (not to mention that most disciplines are entirely inaccessible without a degree).
Lots of people out here who can actually affect the labor market and affect the way student financing works, and instead of hiring people without college degrees and instead of electing people who can reform financing, they just ask students to take a decidedly stupid bet on not getting a degree. It's a silly way to solve the problem.
Lots of people out here who can actually affect the labor market and affect the way student financing works, and instead of hiring people without college degrees and instead of electing people who can reform financing, they just ask students to take a decidedly stupid bet on not getting a degree. It's a silly way to solve the problem.
My mom frequently encouraged me to learn a trade on top of my chosen (at the time) field (Special Effects). She always pointed out that people would need their cars fixed and would need their electrical wired.
Special effects is a trade.
And people will always need stuff that snuck into shot rotoscoping out. Don’t worry.
And people will always need stuff that snuck into shot rotoscoping out. Don’t worry.
People will always need their car fixed locally, though. It's reasonable to be concerned about jobs that could be performed anywhere. "Take this thing out" is a much easier request to ship off than even most other information/tech jobs.
It is now. We don't know when this person's Mom was giving the advice.
I didn’t actually go into Special Effects. Sometimes I wish I did, but Software Development pays better with more flexibility.
I once had a friend comment when we were talking about job security that the first thing to go when a recession hits is dance lessons and Karate classes. At the time it felt like film making was very boom or bust
I once had a friend comment when we were talking about job security that the first thing to go when a recession hits is dance lessons and Karate classes. At the time it felt like film making was very boom or bust
When the first dotcom crash hit, I paused working in tech and welded at a shipyard for a while. Enjoyed the work, and was very, very thankful I had a fallback skill!
people would need their cars fixed
This may turn out to be false: electric cars require almost no maintenance.
This may turn out to be false: electric cars require almost no maintenance.
You’ll still need alignments. You’ll still need the steering adjusted. ABS modules can fail, those need to be replaced.
Just because we’re getting rid of two large issue generators in the engine/transmission system, doesn’t mean the new machines are bulletproof.
People are going to need their cars fixed.
Just because we’re getting rid of two large issue generators in the engine/transmission system, doesn’t mean the new machines are bulletproof.
People are going to need their cars fixed.
I'd also like to mention that half of the parts in any given Tesla are off the shelf parts shared with other car brands. Just normal boring things you'd never think of... but ones that also require NHTSA approval, thus, a small number of Chinese companies have a monopoly on those otherwise boring parts. This came up when the pandemic started, and Tesla had to halt production lines waiting for the cargo ship to arrive from overseas because Tesla doesn't make that part.
We have like 3 actually good mechanics locally... most of what they do is related to alignment, suspensions, and consumables that owners don't feel comfortable doing themselves. All three of these still apply to a Tesla, even though they don't need their oil changed, they still have tires, antifreeze, air filters, brakes, etc, and that's still bread and butter work for the local shop.
We have like 3 actually good mechanics locally... most of what they do is related to alignment, suspensions, and consumables that owners don't feel comfortable doing themselves. All three of these still apply to a Tesla, even though they don't need their oil changed, they still have tires, antifreeze, air filters, brakes, etc, and that's still bread and butter work for the local shop.
I realize this is a common trope among Tesla fans, but you should really call your local electric vehicle mechanic and ask him how business is doing.
Spoiler: it's booming.
Spoiler: it's booming.
There is definitely less overall maintenance required. The total number of mechanics needed would definitely decrease if everyone was driving electric. We did zero maintenance other than brake fluid check and tires in 3 years. This experience is typical. Certainly we will need more independent electric capable shops than we have now, but there is a definite first mover advantage at play. Also, cars get wrecked and need repairs. Body shops will always be a thing too. Still, these things are simpler, have less parts, and are easier to service in general.
> We did zero maintenance other than brake fluid check and tires in 3 years. This experience is typical.
That's nothing special these days, look at the maintenance schedule of a new Toyota Corolla, except 3 oil changes (and that's only in the US where this is done ridiculously often) there's nothing ICE specific on there...
That's nothing special these days, look at the maintenance schedule of a new Toyota Corolla, except 3 oil changes (and that's only in the US where this is done ridiculously often) there's nothing ICE specific on there...
There are valid reasons why US spec cars often have shorter intervals… heat and dust are both bad for oil, and the US has a lot
more of both than Europe or Japan.
> We did zero maintenance other than brake fluid check and tires in 3 years. This experience is typical.
It's also my experience with my Ram truck.
It's also my experience with my Ram truck.
And my 2016 F-150. Bought it used in 2017. I finally changed the front brakes yesterday not because it was necessary but because I felt that it should probably be done on a 5 year old vehicle with 47k miles on it. Took me all of an hour. I’d never changed brakes on my own before (saw and helped my dad as a kid lots of times.)
Getting from 0k to 47k is not the challenge or the impressive part, though. That should be typical, and increasingly is.
More impressive is getting from 100k to 147k, for instance.
More impressive is getting from 100k to 147k, for instance.
Fair enough, most new cars /should/ need little maintenance. On a 10 year time span the number of things that can (and likely will) need maintenance can only be greater on an ICE engine. Ignition systems, emission systems, so many more moving and friction parts on an ICE vehicle.
>but you should really call your local electric vehicle mechanic and ask him how business is doing.
that anecdote is only indicative of short term market conditions. It's sort of like saying that trucking jobs are safe because there are truck driver shortages today, ignoring the impending doom of automation in the next few decades.
that anecdote is only indicative of short term market conditions. It's sort of like saying that trucking jobs are safe because there are truck driver shortages today, ignoring the impending doom of automation in the next few decades.
> It's sort of like saying that trucking jobs are safe because there are truck driver shortages today, ignoring the impending doom of automation in the next few decades.
If it's still decades out, that means it's still reasonable to suggest to people looking for a career. Changing careers at 38 is something a lot of people do, for instance after 20 years in the military.
If it's still decades out, that means it's still reasonable to suggest to people looking for a career. Changing careers at 38 is something a lot of people do, for instance after 20 years in the military.
Teslas spend more time receiving service than almost any other modern car. EV's also need tires rotated and changed far more often than ICE due to their greater weight and torque.
My 4 year old Tesla has had several unscheduled service visits. None of them were for anything EV related. All of them were for Tesla-specific or "new car builder" things. Eg, main infotainment replacement (from ancient arm to modern intel for better performance), ball joint replacement at 40K miles, forgotten tow package when my car was delivered, improperly installed windows, etc, etc, etc.
Actually, one issue insurance agencies are having is that it almost takes an electrical engineering degree to fix an electric vehicle.
They would love it if you could fix a vehicle instead of having to replace the entire thing, which is what the OEMs want.
They would love it if you could fix a vehicle instead of having to replace the entire thing, which is what the OEMs want.
> They would love it if you could fix a vehicle instead of having to replace the entire thing, which is what the OEMs want.
The auto insurance industry knows how to influence car makers, they run the IIHS crash testing rating system, and they could probably also rate cars on repairability. Although, sometimes the safety features make it hard to repair, so there's some tradeoffs there.
The auto insurance industry knows how to influence car makers, they run the IIHS crash testing rating system, and they could probably also rate cars on repairability. Although, sometimes the safety features make it hard to repair, so there's some tradeoffs there.
When electric cars stop crashing, we're effectively dead.
> My understanding of this new college is that it's aimed at solving the perceived problem of four-year Catholic liberal arts schools, namely that they graduate a lot of young adults with the same (or roughly the same) degrees, but without an obvious career path laid out for them.
The top of the home page states their aim, "Learn a trade,earn a degree, and graduate without crippling debt. The College of St. Joseph the Worker forms students into effective and committed members of their communities by teaching them the Catholic intellectual tradition while training them in skilled and dignified labor. We teach our students to think, but also to pray, to love, and to build."
The top of the home page states their aim, "Learn a trade,earn a degree, and graduate without crippling debt. The College of St. Joseph the Worker forms students into effective and committed members of their communities by teaching them the Catholic intellectual tradition while training them in skilled and dignified labor. We teach our students to think, but also to pray, to love, and to build."
That's their stated goal, but their staffing suggests a truer revealed goal, which is political rather than practical: they aren't accredited to offer a degree, the degree they offer isn't valuable in the trades they hope to serve, they don't have instructors with credentials in the trades, and they cost more than a community college. What they do have is a founder and coterie of teaching fellows that share a peculiar ideology.
By way of example: "electrician" is one of their 5 trades, and they have no listed electrician faculty.
By way of example: "electrician" is one of their 5 trades, and they have no listed electrician faculty.
> My understanding of this new college is that it's aimed at solving the perceived problem of four-year Catholic liberal arts schools, namely that they graduate a lot of young adults with the same (or roughly the same) degrees, but without an obvious career path laid out for them.
No, it's aimed at solving a perceived problem of the Catholic working class, that they aren't effectively equipped and harnessed as a political arm of the Church to shape civil society.
The people this is aimed to attract is not people who would otherwise go to traditional liberal arts colleges and universities, Catholic or otherwise.
No, it's aimed at solving a perceived problem of the Catholic working class, that they aren't effectively equipped and harnessed as a political arm of the Church to shape civil society.
The people this is aimed to attract is not people who would otherwise go to traditional liberal arts colleges and universities, Catholic or otherwise.
This is going to turn our country backwards. We're the richest country in the world. We should be training our citizens to be PhDs and exporting innovation and culture. The standard for "skilled trade" should be world-class skills (Hyperbaric Welding, Robotics, Civil Engineering; ie. "skills an advanced society would export") and not work that can be exported to the developing world. These, "advanced skills" require a level of critical thinking that requires college education. We're beginning to forget that we can't have an advanced society without a well-educated and informed voting populace.
Relevant:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfsburg
Relevant:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfsburg
First, we still need plumbers, painters, and tradesmen of all sorts.
Second, not everyone is equipped to earn a PhD by significantly advancing our knowledge in a useful field. In fact, the majority of people are not.
Third, the demand for degrees — due to the idea that everyone must go to college, and misguided subsidies to make that happen — already far exceeds what colleges are able to supply while still being achievable by the majority of their customer base.
The result has been degree inflation, cost inflation, and a huge number of useless workers with useless degrees unable to pay off their crippling college debt.
Second, not everyone is equipped to earn a PhD by significantly advancing our knowledge in a useful field. In fact, the majority of people are not.
Third, the demand for degrees — due to the idea that everyone must go to college, and misguided subsidies to make that happen — already far exceeds what colleges are able to supply while still being achievable by the majority of their customer base.
The result has been degree inflation, cost inflation, and a huge number of useless workers with useless degrees unable to pay off their crippling college debt.
>Second, not everyone is equipped to earn a PhD by significantly advancing our knowledge in a useful field. In fact, the majority of people are not.
And even if equipped (whatever that means exactly) many simply have no interest in doing so. I assume I could have gotten into a PhD program of some sort had I had my heart set on it. (I did get a couple of Masters--and mostly quite enjoyed them.) But had very little interest in getting a PhD--and find the idea retrospectively even less appealing today.
And even if equipped (whatever that means exactly) many simply have no interest in doing so. I assume I could have gotten into a PhD program of some sort had I had my heart set on it. (I did get a couple of Masters--and mostly quite enjoyed them.) But had very little interest in getting a PhD--and find the idea retrospectively even less appealing today.
If you broaden the historical context the result has been an advanced economy with computers and high speed communication. It's going to be this kind of anti-intellectual, pseudo-populist rhetoric that ends up killing innovation in the United States.
We're rich enough (for now) to import innovation; we don't need an educated populace. We have a robust military that makes us untouchable geopolitcally.
Do you see how dangerous this kind of bullshit is? Do you see what happens when enough of the people in your country don't value things like degrees and institutions of higher learning? The Athenians fell because of their hubris; not because they valued poetry and art.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pol_Pot
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror
http://hrlibrary.umn.edu/education/thucydides.html
We're rich enough (for now) to import innovation; we don't need an educated populace. We have a robust military that makes us untouchable geopolitcally.
Do you see how dangerous this kind of bullshit is? Do you see what happens when enough of the people in your country don't value things like degrees and institutions of higher learning? The Athenians fell because of their hubris; not because they valued poetry and art.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pol_Pot
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror
http://hrlibrary.umn.edu/education/thucydides.html
It's not a question of if we value it - we have yet to automate trades, and we still require tradespeople to carry out the day to day work of construction and manufacturing. There's nothing wrong with that, as there are many people who'd rather work with their hands as opposed to sitting in front of a computer.
So long as people have ready access to a trade education if they want it, the wages afforded to various professions should be sufficient to handle the distribution of students into the future - clearly, degrees are still desirable enough to the alternative that trade wages will have to go higher before more people start moving into it.
So long as people have ready access to a trade education if they want it, the wages afforded to various professions should be sufficient to handle the distribution of students into the future - clearly, degrees are still desirable enough to the alternative that trade wages will have to go higher before more people start moving into it.
What a curious line to draw, between "some Catholics think that postsecondary voc-ed might be a good idea" and "anyone with glasses might be an intellectual, best kill them just in case".
> This is going to turn our country backwards. We're the richest country in the world. We should be training our citizens to be PhDs and exporting innovation and culture.
I’m Swedish and this is the ideology Sweden is based on. But I’ve come to see it as backwards, even immoral.
There’s a dream on the left side of the political spectrum that everyone is borne a blank slate that society can fill with whatever it wants. By this logic a rich country can fill their blank slates with wonderfully productive and innovative PhDs, because all it takes is economic resources invested in education.
But that’s simply not true. Highly challenging, creative, innovative thinking doesn’t work that way. Take Srinivasa Ramanujan as an example. With no formal education at all he wrote himself into the history books of mathematics. He’s an extreme example. But consider e.g. the distribution of scores on the Putnam: top scores are around 125, and most years the median is zero(!). Those with a zero score do not in general lack education.
I have one brother that has a mild intellectual handicap and one that has a PhD in medicine. The former makes sandwiches for the kids in a local school and works in a stable. The latter makes equipment for medical research. They are both perfectly happy with their stations in life. But taken to the extreme this ideology means that if they were borne in different countries then their positions may very well be switched. Nobody benefits from this. It would make them both miserable, the sandwiches worse and (probably :P) the medical research equipment less useful.
“The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice.” In this case I think that means every country on earth is going to have some brilliant innovators, and some skilled craftsmen. They’ll need both to stay rich.
I’m Swedish and this is the ideology Sweden is based on. But I’ve come to see it as backwards, even immoral.
There’s a dream on the left side of the political spectrum that everyone is borne a blank slate that society can fill with whatever it wants. By this logic a rich country can fill their blank slates with wonderfully productive and innovative PhDs, because all it takes is economic resources invested in education.
But that’s simply not true. Highly challenging, creative, innovative thinking doesn’t work that way. Take Srinivasa Ramanujan as an example. With no formal education at all he wrote himself into the history books of mathematics. He’s an extreme example. But consider e.g. the distribution of scores on the Putnam: top scores are around 125, and most years the median is zero(!). Those with a zero score do not in general lack education.
I have one brother that has a mild intellectual handicap and one that has a PhD in medicine. The former makes sandwiches for the kids in a local school and works in a stable. The latter makes equipment for medical research. They are both perfectly happy with their stations in life. But taken to the extreme this ideology means that if they were borne in different countries then their positions may very well be switched. Nobody benefits from this. It would make them both miserable, the sandwiches worse and (probably :P) the medical research equipment less useful.
“The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice.” In this case I think that means every country on earth is going to have some brilliant innovators, and some skilled craftsmen. They’ll need both to stay rich.
> But consider e.g. the distribution of scores on the Putnam: top scores are around 125, and most years the median is zero(!). Those with a zero score do not in general lack education.
This is a bad example; the Putnam is designed as a competition and scored in a way to distinguish the 90th percentile from the 99th, not the 40th from the 50th. The median = 0 just means that the scoring system throws away everything below the median to better score everything above it.
Skilled craftsmen exist because there are things that require a combination of capital in the form of tools and knowledge in the form of training on a small scale. Think about an electronics repair shop: they will pretty much always exist (and should) because as sophistication increases in electronics, when they break they always result in a unique snowflake of a situation that is basically impossible to automate the repair thereof. Repair also requires spare parts and tools that they buy one time and use many times.
In a dynamic economy both will exist, but it doesn't render the argument that we should want more Nvidias and fewer Subways any less valid.
This is a bad example; the Putnam is designed as a competition and scored in a way to distinguish the 90th percentile from the 99th, not the 40th from the 50th. The median = 0 just means that the scoring system throws away everything below the median to better score everything above it.
Skilled craftsmen exist because there are things that require a combination of capital in the form of tools and knowledge in the form of training on a small scale. Think about an electronics repair shop: they will pretty much always exist (and should) because as sophistication increases in electronics, when they break they always result in a unique snowflake of a situation that is basically impossible to automate the repair thereof. Repair also requires spare parts and tools that they buy one time and use many times.
In a dynamic economy both will exist, but it doesn't render the argument that we should want more Nvidias and fewer Subways any less valid.
> This is a bad example; the Putnam is designed as a competition and scored in a way to distinguish the 90th percentile from the 99th, not the 40th from the 50th. The median = 0 just means that the scoring system throws away everything below the median to better score everything above it.
Another example of such a competition is the global innovation economy. If you’re in the 50th percentile of GPU companies then you’re not nVidia, and economically speaking you can just go home.
I understand it sounds harsh, and it is. But it’s the truth.
Another example of such a competition is the global innovation economy. If you’re in the 50th percentile of GPU companies then you’re not nVidia, and economically speaking you can just go home.
I understand it sounds harsh, and it is. But it’s the truth.
Sure, but college attendance is very high now and wasn’t back when we had a “more informed electorate”. Educational achievement is not a catch all for actually being a thinking and critical person.
Also, not everyone has equal potential, and the people who do have it may not want to use it. Having many trade paths, not just elite ones helps our society to match achievement and desire. We certainly need the full spectrum and should encourage the development of more choice.
Also, not everyone has equal potential, and the people who do have it may not want to use it. Having many trade paths, not just elite ones helps our society to match achievement and desire. We certainly need the full spectrum and should encourage the development of more choice.
I need a plumber. And I don't care what plumbers in Vietnam charge, because I need a plumber here. And if everyone I know made twice as much money, we'd still need plumbers, maybe even more so, and we'd just pay more for them.
“If I had a million dollars
We wouldn't have to eat Kraft dinner
But we would eat Kraft dinner
Of course we would we'd just eat more”
This institution doesn't appear to be affiliated with any US diocese or Catholic order, and the founder and several of the "teaching fellows" are fairly political; you can read a bunch of their stuff on https://newpolity.com/. This is a somewhat weird species of "Catholic" philosophy that departs in a bunch of ways from Catholicism as practiced at parishes around, say, Chicago.
I'd be a little wary.
I'd be a little wary.
The "Minimalism and the non-binary body" is an example of how a text can be written with eloquence but be just as demented as GG Allin lyric.
Why do you think the parishes around Chicago are normative for Catholicism? The impression I get when I hear about it is that things are pretty bad there. On the other hand, a lot of young Catholics that I know listen to shows like New Polity.
Bad where? I bring up Chicago because (a) I live here, (b) grew up Catholic here (c) am now Catholic here, (d) it's one of the largest cities in the country, and (e) it's famously a bastion of US Catholicism.
Less significant in and of itself, is the fact that this is not the first new college I've heard of being founded in the last few years, at a time when overall undergrad college enrollment is in decline, and a few colleges have recently either closed or merged with other institutions to make one college smaller than the two were when separate.
This would seem to be contradictory, if it is interpreted as a result of less demand for post-secondary education. It makes more sense, if it is the result of a dissatisfaction with current US post-secondary institutions.
This would seem to be contradictory, if it is interpreted as a result of less demand for post-secondary education. It makes more sense, if it is the result of a dissatisfaction with current US post-secondary institutions.
> It makes more sense, if it is the result of a dissatisfaction with current US post-secondary institutions.
This is exactly what is going on. Boot camps, income share models, and a lot of newer colleges are simply attempts to disrupt the post-secondary industry. In this case, they have a really interesting table on the Tuition and fees page showing how students come out $171,000 ahead with their apprenticeship program (and it is quite conservative).
This is exactly what is going on. Boot camps, income share models, and a lot of newer colleges are simply attempts to disrupt the post-secondary industry. In this case, they have a really interesting table on the Tuition and fees page showing how students come out $171,000 ahead with their apprenticeship program (and it is quite conservative).
Dunno this seems like a bit of a strange one and I'm sure others have popped up. This is a faith based, trade school where everyone graduates with a "Catholic Studies Degree"
It's barely a college, its not accredited AFAICT and seems more like a trade school - outside of the "Catholic Studies Degree" which maybe counts for a "real" BA?
It's barely a college, its not accredited AFAICT and seems more like a trade school - outside of the "Catholic Studies Degree" which maybe counts for a "real" BA?
To my knowledge, accreditation takes a few years and requires demonstrating adherence to the accreditation standards over a similar period of years.
I don't know if, for a new school, accreditation groups retroactively "credit" any degrees that the school has granted since opening.
I don't know if, for a new school, accreditation groups retroactively "credit" any degrees that the school has granted since opening.
Non-accredited schools that are seeking accreditation always highlight this fact and what it means for students who start before accreditation is award. This school does not, so it almost certainly is not seeking accreditation, and since it's degree program is pretty overtly not a traditional academic degree program (not even in theology), but a religio-political indoctrination program designed to create warriors for a particular political viewpoint on behalf of a theocratic faction within Catholicism, I doubt it would have much chance at accreditation if it sought it.
> its degree program is pretty overtly not a traditional academic degree program (not even in theology), but a religio-political indoctrination program designed to create warriors for a particular political viewpoint on behalf of a theocratic faction within Catholicism
Do these bits:
Do these bits:
The college aims at a revived citizen class of educated workers who can hold the powerful forces of our society to account"
The American separation of religion from public life [...] is an error[...]. This error must be overcome
For what it's worth, I recoiled from the sentiment 'dragonwriter expressed, but I did some digging and I think they're more right than wrong about this. It's unfortunate, because creative alternative credentials and trade-focused education are interesting and valuable discussions to have. But I don't think this particular organization is likely to be operating in good faith.
No, those excepts alone are not the whole basis. Why?
Arguably a lot of pre-existing, accredited institutions are now pretty overtly not a traditional degree program (not even in say, English, or History) but a religio-political indoctrination program designed to create warriors for a particular political viewpoint of a theocratic faction…
In the US, institutional accreditation is almost never retroactive.
Sounds more like a slightly upmarket version of a southern “Bible college”
> its not accredited AFAICT and seems more like a trade school
AFAICT, trade schools also need to be accredited, if they're graduates are able to get into the trades that they are trained in.
AFAICT, trade schools also need to be accredited, if they're graduates are able to get into the trades that they are trained in.
I remember reading recently about a new professor starting a nonprofit college/university to cut out as much admin bloat as possible, is that one of the ones you're talking about?
I ask because I can't remember what the name of the school was and I haven't been able to locate information even though I tried. Does anyone here remember what I'm talking about? I actually thought j read about it here on HN.
Yes, I tried the search function :)
I ask because I can't remember what the name of the school was and I haven't been able to locate information even though I tried. Does anyone here remember what I'm talking about? I actually thought j read about it here on HN.
Yes, I tried the search function :)
These new "freedom" or other themed universities set my griftdar off every time. Like the University of Austin does. I'm not very fond of the grifty nature of established post-secondary education either. But you at least get something of some value at the end.
> But you at least get something of some value at the end.
That makes it worse honestly. You can go hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt getting a BA in the humanities from a university whose tuition is increasing at 2x inflation, but society encourages that choice by giving the BA outsized value in unlocking professions like "salesman" and "firefighter." Meanwhile people are so under the weight of their debt that addressing it is a political issue at the national level, but so far the leading proposal is a one-time debt forgiveness package, which does nothing to address the structural issue.
Here we have a new college that is expressly trying to reduce costs substantially, while offering practical skills in in-demand trades. That sounds like a welcome correction to me. The idea that it is a "grift" only makes sense in an environment where society has made "accredited BA" the arbitrary entrance criteria into the professional class.
That makes it worse honestly. You can go hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt getting a BA in the humanities from a university whose tuition is increasing at 2x inflation, but society encourages that choice by giving the BA outsized value in unlocking professions like "salesman" and "firefighter." Meanwhile people are so under the weight of their debt that addressing it is a political issue at the national level, but so far the leading proposal is a one-time debt forgiveness package, which does nothing to address the structural issue.
Here we have a new college that is expressly trying to reduce costs substantially, while offering practical skills in in-demand trades. That sounds like a welcome correction to me. The idea that it is a "grift" only makes sense in an environment where society has made "accredited BA" the arbitrary entrance criteria into the professional class.
According to the Secretary of State, the company was founded on March 3rd of this year. It doesn’t have legal authorization from the Chancellor of the Ohio Department of Education to operate in this state. The Chancellor can ask Attorney General Dave Yost to get an injunction to shut them down in short order if they enroll anyone.
The whole thing feels either like something is wrong or it is a sting by ICE. I remember them running one outside Detroit in the past couple years.
The whole thing feels either like something is wrong or it is a sting by ICE. I remember them running one outside Detroit in the past couple years.
They are literally directed at reducing crippling debt of students.
If they grift harder than Northwestern, and leave students in 2x more debt than a decent school, well, then I guess it's maybe a grift.
I would take their statements at face value.
I suggest they are absolutely trying to do what they state they are trying to do.
That said ... it's obviously a bit of a risk.
If they grift harder than Northwestern, and leave students in 2x more debt than a decent school, well, then I guess it's maybe a grift.
I would take their statements at face value.
I suggest they are absolutely trying to do what they state they are trying to do.
That said ... it's obviously a bit of a risk.
And the fortunes charged by long standing universities for degrees with little value in the marketplace, don't?
>But you at least get something of some value at the end.
You very often get something that has little to no value in itself, along with a crushing pile of debt.
You very often get something that has little to no value in itself, along with a crushing pile of debt.
This college is charging $15k/year for a 3 year school. I dunno how that compares to others, but it sounds pretty affordable? I’ve been in the job market for quite a while, so my knowledge of tuition costs is very outdated.
The degree isn't accredited, so what it's worth is probably a lot more subjective.
> But you at least get something of some value at the end
Aside from a few elite universities, do you? What’s a Bachelors of Arts from Directional State worth?
Aside from a few elite universities, do you? What’s a Bachelors of Arts from Directional State worth?
Elite universities are shameless credential laundering operations. I wouldn’t hire anybody with a degree from Harvard or Yale for anything other than sales.
A poor kid who wants to be successful is much more valuable than some legacy admission.
A poor kid who wants to be successful is much more valuable than some legacy admission.
Probably get you through more doors than someone without one if you both have zero experience. It can lessen the hurdle of getting that first experience also if you take advantage of internship your university can arrange.
This one seems like a genuine attempt to train for valuable trades while providing some of the college trappings. It’s also significantly cheaper than most grifty schools like ITT Tech or Devry. Though I couldn’t find anywhere saying they’re a non-profit.
If they do a decent liberal arts portion of the Catholic studies the students would gain a good grasp on reading, writing, and history with some philosophy too.
Their mission page actually has some interesting parts about their view of the dignity of manual trades and labor: https://www.collegeofstjoseph.com/mission-and-vision
To be honest many employers will also see “BA” and “college” and not look further since they don’t actually care; it’s just a filtering mechanism.
If they do a decent liberal arts portion of the Catholic studies the students would gain a good grasp on reading, writing, and history with some philosophy too.
Their mission page actually has some interesting parts about their view of the dignity of manual trades and labor: https://www.collegeofstjoseph.com/mission-and-vision
To be honest many employers will also see “BA” and “college” and not look further since they don’t actually care; it’s just a filtering mechanism.
This is a strange question. A BA from a 2nd or 3rd tier state school is sufficient to apply to a wide variety of white collar jobs, all of which require degrees.
Isn't UT Austin an established state school? They have a lot of alumni in the valley.
UT Austin is a completely established school. I'm talking about the deceptively named University of Austin which is the Musk, Rogan, Fridman affiliated school opening maybe soon. I don't know if those 3 are actually affiliated with it, but their names come up with it.
The University of Austin, if it comes to be, isn't promising marketability, though, just education for those interested in the classic liberal arts canon.
I'm interested, and I already have a career. If I pay for a course to join like minded people and have interesting discussions, where's the grift?
The regular state university I attended that left me with a pile of debt and did nothing to get me a career was the grift.. but I figured that out when I was young and dropped out, because it WAS promising a marketable skill, which I taught myself, and wasn't giving me the interesting discussion or insightful reading or anything else I wanted from a general education...
... Which is why I'm interested in the University of Austin...
I'm interested, and I already have a career. If I pay for a course to join like minded people and have interesting discussions, where's the grift?
The regular state university I attended that left me with a pile of debt and did nothing to get me a career was the grift.. but I figured that out when I was young and dropped out, because it WAS promising a marketable skill, which I taught myself, and wasn't giving me the interesting discussion or insightful reading or anything else I wanted from a general education...
... Which is why I'm interested in the University of Austin...
Isn’t “University of Dallas” also deceptively named?
I think this may be an unfamiliar pattern for towns that haven’t yet crowded their name into university titles but it’s a well established pattern when enough institutions land on the ground.
Eg
University of San Francisco (USF) San Francisco State University (SFSU) University of California San Francisco (UCSF)
Same exact pattern in San Diego too. Probably going to see this pattern permutations across several towns in the future. I think Seattle and towns in Florida May have a similar pattern too. Kind of makes a schools named after individuals a bit more distinctive come to think about it.
Eg
University of San Francisco (USF) San Francisco State University (SFSU) University of California San Francisco (UCSF)
Same exact pattern in San Diego too. Probably going to see this pattern permutations across several towns in the future. I think Seattle and towns in Florida May have a similar pattern too. Kind of makes a schools named after individuals a bit more distinctive come to think about it.
I’d only noticed that pattern in University of Chicago and University of San Francisco … but yeah … very interesting.
Parent is referring to a non-UT, liberal arts school [1].
[1] https://www.uaustin.org/
[1] https://www.uaustin.org/
In a weird way it reminds me of many of the TCUs (tribal colleges & universities) where trades / vocational degrees are taught along side "normal" college classes. Its actually a pretty good idea and if properly done can result in some really nice interaction.
I really wish that someone will mix a vocational robotics certificate with an actual robotic engineering degree. I just want to see the interaction. I dearly wish the result of the technicians having to build something designed by the engineering degree.
I really wish that someone will mix a vocational robotics certificate with an actual robotic engineering degree. I just want to see the interaction. I dearly wish the result of the technicians having to build something designed by the engineering degree.
$15000 a year including room isn't bad, but I can still get similar education much cheaper at a nearby CC.
No, you cannot get the politico-religious indoctrination that is the overt mission of the “Catholoc Studies” education this school offers at your local CC; give the current Supreme Court a few more terms and if you live in a predominantly Catholic state, that may change, but historically the Establishment Clause jurisprudence would prevent it.
Since almost all of the early, 'good' Universities including the entire Ivy League (and of course the much older European schools) literally started as 'Seminaries' to train the Priesthood, and expanded from there, and the very notion of 'University' education in the US and around the world is based on this framework of higher learning, with integrated spiritual aspects, I think the material reality of the situation is a bit more nuanced.
Yes, there are issues of Separation of Church and State, yes, the current SCOTUS is a scary in terms of their willingness to bend the constitution ...
... but it's also given that our colleges are by some measures a grift, that communitarian values may not be directly taught as many would like, that far-left ideologues dominate the social and political language, and that many people would like their colleges to at least have some kind of Religious Affiliation though maybe not outright 'Religious School'.
This school seems to be really heavy on the 'Catholicism', but I can see something like it where there aren't any 'religious studies' directly, but rather with some affiliation, as resonating quite a lot with people.
Yes, there are issues of Separation of Church and State, yes, the current SCOTUS is a scary in terms of their willingness to bend the constitution ...
... but it's also given that our colleges are by some measures a grift, that communitarian values may not be directly taught as many would like, that far-left ideologues dominate the social and political language, and that many people would like their colleges to at least have some kind of Religious Affiliation though maybe not outright 'Religious School'.
This school seems to be really heavy on the 'Catholicism', but I can see something like it where there aren't any 'religious studies' directly, but rather with some affiliation, as resonating quite a lot with people.
> Many people would like their colleges to at least have some kind of Religious Affiliation though maybe not outright 'Religious School'.
Public universities still have chaplains of various faiths/creeds. There's no problem with that (for now). There is also no issue with student-run clubs affiliated with a given religion, and they're likely still eligible to receive the same type of funding any other club is. The issue is if there is _only_ one faith/creed represented/forced at a public school (and even then, some public university sports teams historically get away with only having a chaplain of one faith [1]).
[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2015/08/21...
Public universities still have chaplains of various faiths/creeds. There's no problem with that (for now). There is also no issue with student-run clubs affiliated with a given religion, and they're likely still eligible to receive the same type of funding any other club is. The issue is if there is _only_ one faith/creed represented/forced at a public school (and even then, some public university sports teams historically get away with only having a chaplain of one faith [1]).
[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2015/08/21...
Yes, it's a complex issue at publicly funded schools.
And frankly, in the US, there is an 'Evangelical' aspect which is weirdly different from more mainstream religions i.e. Jews and Catholics probably have more in common than Evangelicals and Catholics - at least culturally. Anglicans and most Protestants go on the Jewish/Catholic side. Even Islam.
A Chapel, a Chaplain, maybe a few religious courses, some influence by the clergy with the school itself, some stricter rules for dorms (i.e. not co-ed etc..) that kind of stuff is one thing ...
... but when everything is 'Gospel Music Only' in the band, 'J for Jesus Cheers', and 'Jesus Revival Rally' before the big game, '4pm Prayer Time', etc. etc.. - it's kind of a another dimension of religiosity entirely. Those kids would be exposed to more integrated religiosity than many of the students at seminary-origin Universities of times past. Oxford Students from hundreds of years ago would think all of that a bit nutty.
I suggest there might be a distinction between: 'Goes to Church on Sunday' and 'Everything is Jesus, Hooray!' kinds of affiliations.
The later, impossible for public schools, the former, possibly.
And frankly, in the US, there is an 'Evangelical' aspect which is weirdly different from more mainstream religions i.e. Jews and Catholics probably have more in common than Evangelicals and Catholics - at least culturally. Anglicans and most Protestants go on the Jewish/Catholic side. Even Islam.
A Chapel, a Chaplain, maybe a few religious courses, some influence by the clergy with the school itself, some stricter rules for dorms (i.e. not co-ed etc..) that kind of stuff is one thing ...
... but when everything is 'Gospel Music Only' in the band, 'J for Jesus Cheers', and 'Jesus Revival Rally' before the big game, '4pm Prayer Time', etc. etc.. - it's kind of a another dimension of religiosity entirely. Those kids would be exposed to more integrated religiosity than many of the students at seminary-origin Universities of times past. Oxford Students from hundreds of years ago would think all of that a bit nutty.
I suggest there might be a distinction between: 'Goes to Church on Sunday' and 'Everything is Jesus, Hooray!' kinds of affiliations.
The later, impossible for public schools, the former, possibly.
> I suggest there might be a distinction between: 'Goes to Church on Sunday' and 'Everything is Jesus, Hooray!' kinds of affiliations.
Yes, some affiliations treat the religion as kind of embarrassing or don’t actually demand anything of their adherents that would be even mildly embarrassing with atheist/agnostic friends. Think Reform Judaism/Unitarian Universalism/ Episcopalianism. Others believe their religion means something.
> The later, impossible for public schools, the former, possibly.
This is actually exactly how the previous dispensation of no religion in public life, judicially started in the US. The Protestants wanted to be able to discriminate against Catholics like you want to be able to discriminate against religions that believe something in tension with the power of the state.
Yes, some affiliations treat the religion as kind of embarrassing or don’t actually demand anything of their adherents that would be even mildly embarrassing with atheist/agnostic friends. Think Reform Judaism/Unitarian Universalism/ Episcopalianism. Others believe their religion means something.
> The later, impossible for public schools, the former, possibly.
This is actually exactly how the previous dispensation of no religion in public life, judicially started in the US. The Protestants wanted to be able to discriminate against Catholics like you want to be able to discriminate against religions that believe something in tension with the power of the state.
“When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men … but when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your father who is unseen.” Matthew 6:5-8
“Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s foes will be those of his own household.” Matthew 10:34-36
> Others believe their religion means something.
I think you may be confusing finding one's religion to be meaningful with some kind of need to broadcast it. I feel every instant of my life to be infused by my faith, yet because it is personal and does require me to testify outwardly about it, it doesn't usually make me want to discuss it with others. You don't get to judge whether it means something to me or not...
I think you may be confusing finding one's religion to be meaningful with some kind of need to broadcast it. I feel every instant of my life to be infused by my faith, yet because it is personal and does require me to testify outwardly about it, it doesn't usually make me want to discuss it with others. You don't get to judge whether it means something to me or not...
If your religion means something to you but no one can tell by any visible sign it is indistinguishable from having no faith. If you every instant of your life is infused by your faith how does it show? Faith can be meaningful to a person without placing any demands on them. Reform Judaism allows people to maintain a connection with their ethnic heritage while having no content disturbing to a good Democrat. UU gives people who grew up with religion something to do once a week that bears some resemblance to it. Faith can be real while having no effect. Western Therapeutic Buddhism is not the only kind of religion that is all about providing something to the adherent.
> If your religion means something to you but no one can tell by any visible sign it is indistinguishable from having no faith.
By you, not by me
> If you every instant of your life is infused by your faith how does it show?
It shows somewhat because I take actions that are in accordance with my faith, but there's no big "tell", it's not particularly easy to distinguish from generally trying to be a good person.
Why does faith have to cause embarrassment or discomfort in front of others, or even be shown to others, in order to "matter"? That might apply to evangelist faith or faiths placing emphasis on proselytism, but does not apply to every faith.
By you, not by me
> If you every instant of your life is infused by your faith how does it show?
It shows somewhat because I take actions that are in accordance with my faith, but there's no big "tell", it's not particularly easy to distinguish from generally trying to be a good person.
Why does faith have to cause embarrassment or discomfort in front of others, or even be shown to others, in order to "matter"? That might apply to evangelist faith or faiths placing emphasis on proselytism, but does not apply to every faith.
> Since almost all of the early, 'good' Universities including the entire Ivy League (and of course the much older European schools) literally started as 'Seminaries' to train the Priesthood, and expanded from there, and the very notion of 'University' education in the US and around the world is based on this framework of higher learning, with integrated spiritual aspects, I think the material reality of the situation is a bit more nuanced.
I’m not sure why you think the fact that “good” private universities originated as (and still operate) seminaries has any bearing on what is legal for public institutions like Community Colleges under the US Constitution and the jurisprudence applying the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment and the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment.
I’m not sure why you think the fact that “good” private universities originated as (and still operate) seminaries has any bearing on what is legal for public institutions like Community Colleges under the US Constitution and the jurisprudence applying the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment and the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment.
It's relevant because the legal constructs we derive are not as absolutist as we would imagine and, that our society, particularly our education, was never entirely secular even long after such clauses were established, and large swaths of people have no understanding of that history, or the degree to which 'The Church' etc. fundamentally underpin these institutions.
Christmas/Easter holidays, 'In God We Trust' on every dollar bill, 'National Prayer Breakfast', Army Chaplains, modern/recent US Presidents (aka Jimmy Carter) teaching Sunday School in the White House etc.. 'Separation of Church and State' is almost an academic construct in a nation or culture in which faith (or even just religion) plays a major roles in people's lives.
Specifically with respect to education, I think many people think of 'University' as a fundamentally secular institution, when really it's not.
Frankly, the general orientation of 'Let's not have a religious state, and our institutions should not be religious' is a really good idea, however, it turns into a hairy mess at the margins.
In Ontario, Canada, about 40% of the 'Public Schools' (aka fully publicly funded) are actually Catholic. They are 'open to anyone' and it's not 'Jesus Songs All Day' kind of thing, rather, they have 'Christmas Concert' where they are allowed to sing Christmas Carols, whereas the regular Public Schools have 'Seasonal Concerts' with 'Wintertime Songs' as an example of some of the 'notable differences', by that I mean, the 'Catholic Schools' are not hugely religiously infused.
I bring this up because it's one of the oddest and most paradoxical arrangements in modern secular governance with respect to education. It's only controversial in the academic sense, i.e. something for people to argue about, in practice, it's the most 'normal' thing one could imagine. If one were to suggest this arrangement for a US state, all hell would break loose. Pun intended. Of course, the US is a different place than Canada. (FYI I'm not Catholic).
Christmas/Easter holidays, 'In God We Trust' on every dollar bill, 'National Prayer Breakfast', Army Chaplains, modern/recent US Presidents (aka Jimmy Carter) teaching Sunday School in the White House etc.. 'Separation of Church and State' is almost an academic construct in a nation or culture in which faith (or even just religion) plays a major roles in people's lives.
Specifically with respect to education, I think many people think of 'University' as a fundamentally secular institution, when really it's not.
Frankly, the general orientation of 'Let's not have a religious state, and our institutions should not be religious' is a really good idea, however, it turns into a hairy mess at the margins.
In Ontario, Canada, about 40% of the 'Public Schools' (aka fully publicly funded) are actually Catholic. They are 'open to anyone' and it's not 'Jesus Songs All Day' kind of thing, rather, they have 'Christmas Concert' where they are allowed to sing Christmas Carols, whereas the regular Public Schools have 'Seasonal Concerts' with 'Wintertime Songs' as an example of some of the 'notable differences', by that I mean, the 'Catholic Schools' are not hugely religiously infused.
I bring this up because it's one of the oddest and most paradoxical arrangements in modern secular governance with respect to education. It's only controversial in the academic sense, i.e. something for people to argue about, in practice, it's the most 'normal' thing one could imagine. If one were to suggest this arrangement for a US state, all hell would break loose. Pun intended. Of course, the US is a different place than Canada. (FYI I'm not Catholic).
What makes you think this anti-Catholic bigotry is okay? Would you say this about an institution affiliated with any other religion? Shameful.
I'm Catholic myself. It is not anti-Catholic to point out that the fairly overt point of the sole major offered, and the institution itself, is indoctrination and political mobilization of a particular approach to inserting religion into government, nor is it anti-Catholic to point out that this would be prohibited in a public institution the way that the First and Fourteenth Amendments have been applied since late in the first half of the 20th Century.
> Would you say this about an institution affiliated with any other religion?
Yes, if it overtly sought the same thing but for a different religion.
> Would you say this about an institution affiliated with any other religion?
Yes, if it overtly sought the same thing but for a different religion.
Any educational institution will inculcate its students with a way of thinking with regard to politics, and with regard to everything else, for that matter. Apparently you happen to have been indoctrinated into the prevailing ideology of political Liberalism, which holds that Church and State should have no public interaction whatsoever. It's naive to think you can get through an educational institution without receiving something like this - the question is whether what you've learned is true. There's nothing unusual about a Catholic institution teaching that Catholicism is true - why else would it profess to be Catholic?
> Any educational institution will inculcate its students with a way of thinking with regard to politics
Probably, but generally not one consistent way as the central goal of the degree program.
> Apparently you happen to have been indoctrinated into the prevailing ideology of political Liberalism, which holds that Church and State should have no public interaction whatsoever.
To the extent that may be true or false, it has no bearing on the descriptive statements about the upthread claim that the equivalent of what this college provides is available from local community colleges in the US, which is not a (positive or negative) normative claim about the desirability of the program offered.
> There's nothing unusual about a Catholic institution teaching that Catholicism is true
The central focus of this institution’s program is objectively unusual among Catholic higher education institutions in the US, though it may be less unusual for the civic orientation part of it to be an included focus in other institutions.
But, in any case whether it is unusual for Catholic institutions is as immaterial as whether or not it is desirable, this subthread is about the claim that the same is available from public community colleges in the US, which is not only very much not the case, but would actually be prohibited by the interpretation of the First and Fourteenth Amendments that has been consistently applied since the 1940s.
Probably, but generally not one consistent way as the central goal of the degree program.
> Apparently you happen to have been indoctrinated into the prevailing ideology of political Liberalism, which holds that Church and State should have no public interaction whatsoever.
To the extent that may be true or false, it has no bearing on the descriptive statements about the upthread claim that the equivalent of what this college provides is available from local community colleges in the US, which is not a (positive or negative) normative claim about the desirability of the program offered.
> There's nothing unusual about a Catholic institution teaching that Catholicism is true
The central focus of this institution’s program is objectively unusual among Catholic higher education institutions in the US, though it may be less unusual for the civic orientation part of it to be an included focus in other institutions.
But, in any case whether it is unusual for Catholic institutions is as immaterial as whether or not it is desirable, this subthread is about the claim that the same is available from public community colleges in the US, which is not only very much not the case, but would actually be prohibited by the interpretation of the First and Fourteenth Amendments that has been consistently applied since the 1940s.
Tradcaths aren't Catholic.
Some Tradcaths are Catholic in the narrow sense (that is, in Communion with Church headed by the Bishop of Rome), others (e.g., sedevacantists) are schismatics.
why use big word when small word work fine
> historically the Establishment Clause jurisprudence would prevent it
The USA isn’t France. It’s freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. The US Federal government is forbidden to establish a religion but the states are free to do so.
New Hampshire had a state church until 1877.
http://restore-christian-america.org/statechurches.html
The USA isn’t France. It’s freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. The US Federal government is forbidden to establish a religion but the states are free to do so.
New Hampshire had a state church until 1877.
http://restore-christian-america.org/statechurches.html
> It’s freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.
At the federal level, it's been both since the beginning; freedom of religion under the free exercise clause, and freedom from religion under the establishment clause, both of the First Amendment. Just like the rest of the First Amendment, and much (but not all) of the rest of the Bill of Rights, that's been held to be incorporated against the states under the 14th Amendment.
> New Hampshire had a state church until 1877.
Very shortly after the 14th Amendment was ratified in 1868 and before the Court had heard and ruled on the cases in which it found the First Amendment rights to be fundamental rights inherent in the concept of ordered liberty incorporated against the states by the 14th Amendment. The states are not free to impose a state church any more than they are to ban all religious expression, for the same Constitutional reason, and they are no more free to do either under the 14th Amendment than the federal government is to given the First.
At the federal level, it's been both since the beginning; freedom of religion under the free exercise clause, and freedom from religion under the establishment clause, both of the First Amendment. Just like the rest of the First Amendment, and much (but not all) of the rest of the Bill of Rights, that's been held to be incorporated against the states under the 14th Amendment.
> New Hampshire had a state church until 1877.
Very shortly after the 14th Amendment was ratified in 1868 and before the Court had heard and ruled on the cases in which it found the First Amendment rights to be fundamental rights inherent in the concept of ordered liberty incorporated against the states by the 14th Amendment. The states are not free to impose a state church any more than they are to ban all religious expression, for the same Constitutional reason, and they are no more free to do either under the 14th Amendment than the federal government is to given the First.
There's also the fact that a CC is accredited, so not only do you get a degree, but you also get credits that can be transferred to another college.
I don't think the student who who attend a trade school like this would care in the slightest that it isn't accredited. Taking them at their word that they teach five trades, offer employment at a local construction company, and set students up with an apprenticeship, these students could care less about accreditation or a degree. They'll finish with several years of experience in a trade.
> I don't think the student who who attend a trade school like this would care in the slightest that it isn't accredited.
They will if they want to claim tax credits, take out a loan to pay for the education, gain discounts on insurance, continue their education later, and so on.
They will if they want to claim tax credits, take out a loan to pay for the education, gain discounts on insurance, continue their education later, and so on.
But if a student doesn’t care about the degree what is the point of going to that school? Would it be cheaper and faster to go to a normal trade school that just teaches trades?
There's also the fact that a CC is accredited
Doesn't the school have to open first, and then get accredited later? Or is it possible to be accredited from day one?
Doesn't the school have to open first, and then get accredited later? Or is it possible to be accredited from day one?
True it takes time, as student outcomes and testimonials are part of the accreditation process. But that doesn’t change the calculus for new students. It’s kind of a catch-22, but necessarily so.
I would suspect the cost would go up if accredited. So, maybe an early adopter discount in some cases if not this one.
> There's also the fact that a CC is accredited
One wonders if the accreditation agencies are neutral, or if they're going to say "well, you're not a real school, so we're not going to accredit you."
One wonders if the accreditation agencies are neutral, or if they're going to say "well, you're not a real school, so we're not going to accredit you."
Can’t speak for the east coast, but the west coast accreditation organization (I forget the name) has a fairly clear set of standards for accreditation that boil down to:
1. Facilities required for accreditation (library, labs, offices, etc)
2. Degree programs and learning objectives (e.g. Bachelors of Computer Science and a list of competencies said degree asserts)
3. Processes and procedures, particularly around course management and curriculum. A big part of this is mapping out your listed degree requirements to classes that either provide those competencies or provide building blocks required for those competencies. E.g. Calc -> Lambda Calc -> Category Theory to provide a lot of fundamental math skills for a proposed CS curriculum.
EDIT: found them—the Western Association of Schools and Colleges is the organization that performs accreditations of colleges in California: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Association_of_Schoo...
1. Facilities required for accreditation (library, labs, offices, etc)
2. Degree programs and learning objectives (e.g. Bachelors of Computer Science and a list of competencies said degree asserts)
3. Processes and procedures, particularly around course management and curriculum. A big part of this is mapping out your listed degree requirements to classes that either provide those competencies or provide building blocks required for those competencies. E.g. Calc -> Lambda Calc -> Category Theory to provide a lot of fundamental math skills for a proposed CS curriculum.
EDIT: found them—the Western Association of Schools and Colleges is the organization that performs accreditations of colleges in California: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Association_of_Schoo...
I saw a university accrediting its new engineering department during a tour. It is a bunch of bueracracy and standards as opposed to something adhoc and fiefdom style. In that case the first few waves of graduates were conditionally accredited as graduates were required to accredit. Standards here seemed to be aligned in interests - they want to preserve reputations more than gatekeep. Given the sheer university volume gatekeeping is a dubious approach anyway.
> accreditation agencies are neutral, or if they're going to say "well, you're not a real school, so we're not going to accredit you."
Saying "you're not a real school, so we're not going to accredit you" is literally the sole job of an accreditation agency. Well, that and figuring out how to define a "real school".
Saying "you're not a real school, so we're not going to accredit you" is literally the sole job of an accreditation agency. Well, that and figuring out how to define a "real school".
This is the kind of premium that practicing Catholic parents may be willing to pay to extend a sanitized, pro-church environment for their children, beyond the Catholic primary schools where these children have gone to before. (And which might have well cost more...)
Marist High School, on the south side of Chicago, which is about as mainstream and middle-class as Chicago Catholic high schools get, is $14k/yr.
"Catholic" and "Masonry" on the same page?
https://www.collegeofstjoseph.com/trades/masonry
https://www.collegeofstjoseph.com/trades/masonry
It’s ok because the masonry isn’t free. ;)
I got the joke -- take my upvote
No need for an upvote — a fancy handshake should do.
Online it is by steganography. Did you not get the memo?
I’m very curious how they’re getting around section 1713.02 of the Ohio Revised Code as seen at https://codes.ohio.gov/ohio-revised-code/section-1713.02
They’re not on the Ohio Department of Higher Education’s authorized list. They make no mention on their website of even seeking authorization. They’re not clearly identifying themselves as a “Bible College” to take advantage of that loophole.
They’re not on the Ohio Department of Higher Education’s authorized list. They make no mention on their website of even seeking authorization. They’re not clearly identifying themselves as a “Bible College” to take advantage of that loophole.
This seems like an interesting idea. You can object to the religious element. But a low cost liberal arts college that also teaches a trade sounds like a really, really good idea.
> a low cost liberal arts college that also teaches a trade sounds like a really, really good idea
It sounds a little like 1930 New York City high school. My grandfather taught Latin and Greek in the HS in New York, retiring in the early 60’s. That might have been the golden age of NYC public schools, but they seemingly were able to teach practical things like typing, bookkeeping and some industrial arts as well as a lot of history, literature and culture.
It sounds a little like 1930 New York City high school. My grandfather taught Latin and Greek in the HS in New York, retiring in the early 60’s. That might have been the golden age of NYC public schools, but they seemingly were able to teach practical things like typing, bookkeeping and some industrial arts as well as a lot of history, literature and culture.
It's an idea that every community college in the country has already had, isn't it?
No. I went to community college before “real college”
- and it tried to be all things to all people.
“Want to transfer to the local land grant college? Get your credits here!”
“Want to earn a certificate IT security? Take your courses here!
“Want to earn your GED? Take the courses and the test here!
Honestly, now that I think of it, the reason this college appeals to me is because of how focused they are. They have a very specific goal.
“A very specific goal” is something most colleges lack, so it’s not fair to pick in community colleges.
“Want to transfer to the local land grant college? Get your credits here!”
“Want to earn a certificate IT security? Take your courses here!
“Want to earn your GED? Take the courses and the test here!
Honestly, now that I think of it, the reason this college appeals to me is because of how focused they are. They have a very specific goal.
“A very specific goal” is something most colleges lack, so it’s not fair to pick in community colleges.
I mean, you can do more than one thing at a community college.
For core undergrad prereq classes in Illinois, CC credits are as good as flagship credits. If you've got a physics prereq, take it at a CC, pay less for it, and probably get better instruction --- that's the experience my kids had.
If you need a GED, get your GED. Sounds pretty great!
Need a welding certification? The CC has the facilities and instructors.
It'd be one thing if they did a poor job at all (or any) of these things. But from what I can tell, they mostly do an excellent job at all these things.
For core undergrad prereq classes in Illinois, CC credits are as good as flagship credits. If you've got a physics prereq, take it at a CC, pay less for it, and probably get better instruction --- that's the experience my kids had.
If you need a GED, get your GED. Sounds pretty great!
Need a welding certification? The CC has the facilities and instructors.
It'd be one thing if they did a poor job at all (or any) of these things. But from what I can tell, they mostly do an excellent job at all these things.
I transferred from my “do everything” community college to a college that only offered one major and zero electives.
Every student took exactly the same classes.
The level of support was amazing!
All of the students were able to help each other, because they all had the same courses,
By the time I started a class, I’d heard a dozen stories about what we learn and do.
And then when I was in my senior year, I spent lots of time mentoring the incoming students on what to expect.
I don’t think you can realistically do so many things. Not well anyway.
We need more specialized schools.
Every student took exactly the same classes.
The level of support was amazing!
All of the students were able to help each other, because they all had the same courses,
By the time I started a class, I’d heard a dozen stories about what we learn and do.
And then when I was in my senior year, I spent lots of time mentoring the incoming students on what to expect.
I don’t think you can realistically do so many things. Not well anyway.
We need more specialized schools.
This emphasis on developing physical competence in a trade as part of a moral education is very Aristotelian (techne) and by extension, Aquinian, for what I vaguely remember as being the St. Thomas Aquinas and after him the Jesuits effectively reconciling Catholicism with "Hellenist" ideas, which were the classical philosphers. That's literally my depth on it though, like a bit of trivia. I spent a little time with some Jesuits and was surprised at how closely their ideas resembled classical thinking, and was completely unlike the evangelicals and secular teachers I had known. However, the school sounds pretty amazing. Outside STEM, undergrad programs seem to be producing ideologues and not builders and this college seems like an antidote to that.
Does it sound amazing? The 5 trades this school claims to serve are carpentry, plumbing, masonry, electical, and HVAC. Of 8 listed faculty, just 1 claims expertise in any of these trades --- carpentry. That instructor operates an inn in Ohio and blogs about politics. The school doesn't offer trade certifications at all, but rather a degree in Catholic studies.
By comparison, Triton College, my nearest community college, offers certifications in 3 of the 5 trades on this list. City Colleges of Chicago offer all 5. For each trade, their certification is recognized, and each trade program has a listed catalog of required and optional courses, with faculty.
Triton costs $11k (~$5k after aid). This "Catholic" college (it is unaffiliated with the church) costs $15k --- and doesn't issue a certification in 1 or 2 years (I don't think it offers one at all; you get a "Catholic studies" degree, which I doubt many plumbing companies are looking for).
This doesn't sound like an amazing deal to me. It sounds like something else.
By comparison, Triton College, my nearest community college, offers certifications in 3 of the 5 trades on this list. City Colleges of Chicago offer all 5. For each trade, their certification is recognized, and each trade program has a listed catalog of required and optional courses, with faculty.
Triton costs $11k (~$5k after aid). This "Catholic" college (it is unaffiliated with the church) costs $15k --- and doesn't issue a certification in 1 or 2 years (I don't think it offers one at all; you get a "Catholic studies" degree, which I doubt many plumbing companies are looking for).
This doesn't sound like an amazing deal to me. It sounds like something else.
The amazing part to me was using physical trade competence for a philosophical foundation. Is their program ideological? Absolutely, and they are pretty forthright about it. It reminded me a lot of Matthew B. Crawford's "shopclass as soulcraft," book, which riffed on the same themes of the intrinsically moral quality of competence. That's the root idea in their ideology right there, I think.
On the scam side, their church affiliation only needs approval at a fairly low level, as the Church isn't really that monolithic, it's very much a federation in which things as different as liberation theology, jesuitism, cults of saints, and even opus dei can co-exist under the same umbrella. If the objection were that this school is mainly a conservative ideological training ground, I would agree that's an accurate assessment, but I didn't get the impression that was hidden from sight, so I didn't think we needed to be oblique about characterizing it.
They don't say, "welcome to our unaccredited reactionary conservative stochastic terror indoctrination centre" because they don't define themselves in terms from critical theories that originate from (to them) an alien worldivew. I'd agree it's the something-else you are referring to, but that's what makes it interesting.
On the scam side, their church affiliation only needs approval at a fairly low level, as the Church isn't really that monolithic, it's very much a federation in which things as different as liberation theology, jesuitism, cults of saints, and even opus dei can co-exist under the same umbrella. If the objection were that this school is mainly a conservative ideological training ground, I would agree that's an accurate assessment, but I didn't get the impression that was hidden from sight, so I didn't think we needed to be oblique about characterizing it.
They don't say, "welcome to our unaccredited reactionary conservative stochastic terror indoctrination centre" because they don't define themselves in terms from critical theories that originate from (to them) an alien worldivew. I'd agree it's the something-else you are referring to, but that's what makes it interesting.
I've read Shop Class As Soulcraft, and the resemblance is superficial. Again: my issue isn't that there's ideology mixed in with the practical stuff; it's that the school is overwhelmingly staffed with ideologues that don't have credentials or practical experience with what they claim to be teaching, that the school doesn't produce a credential relevant to the trades it claims to serve, and that it costs quite a bit more than community colleges that do provide those credentials, facility, and faculty.
If they were going to a school that will be overwhelmingly staffed with ideologues that don't have credentials or practical experience with what they claim to be teaching, I would agree they could probably get a better credential from a regular state university.
A regular state university? How about just one of the 1,167 community colleges around the country, most of which have programs that specialize in getting people prepared and credentialed for these trades, and all of which cost a fraction of this organization?
I think you could make a pretty inexpensive Computer Science non-profit that is unaccredited but issued its own degree. No one cares about accreditation anyway. It would take a wealthy person to put their name on it, and be a struggle to get the first cohort off the ground, but once you get solid lecturers and a good reputation it would be self-fulfilling. You only need cheap laptops and a single room for the whole cohort. Otherwise it's knowledge transfer. If you paid the lecturers above-average salary and outsourced everything else, you could probably do it for under $5 million a year, which for a rich tech person is peanuts.
> "No one cares about accreditation anyway."
"... U.S. jurisdictions where the use of higher education credentials from diploma mills and unaccredited schools is explicitly illegal or legally restricted include Illinois, Indiana, Maine, Michigan, Missouri, Nevada, New Jersey, North Dakota, Oregon, South Dakota, Texas, Virginia, and Washington. Many other states are also considering restrictions on unaccredited degree use in order to help prevent fraud. ..." -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diploma_mills_in_the_United_St...
"... U.S. jurisdictions where the use of higher education credentials from diploma mills and unaccredited schools is explicitly illegal or legally restricted include Illinois, Indiana, Maine, Michigan, Missouri, Nevada, New Jersey, North Dakota, Oregon, South Dakota, Texas, Virginia, and Washington. Many other states are also considering restrictions on unaccredited degree use in order to help prevent fraud. ..." -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diploma_mills_in_the_United_St...
This sounds like moat-building. But what does "the use of higher education credentials from diploma mills and unaccredited schools" actually amount to? Listing them on a CV?
You know, you could've just Googled a bit to find the relevant laws. For example, for Washington state: https://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.60.070
"... (2) A person is guilty of knowingly using a false academic credential if the person knowingly uses a false academic credential or falsely claims to have a credential issued by an institution of higher education that is accredited by an accrediting association recognized as such by rule of the student achievement council:
(a) In a written or oral advertisement or other promotion of a business; or
(b) With the intent to:
(i) Obtain employment;
(ii) Obtain a license or certificate to practice a trade, profession, or occupation;
(iii) Obtain a promotion, compensation or other benefit, or an increase in compensation or other benefit, in employment or in the practice of a trade, profession, or occupation;
(iv) Obtain admission to an educational program in this state; or
(v) Gain a position in government with authority over another person, regardless of whether the person receives compensation for the position.
...
(4) Issuing a false academic credential is a class C felony.
(5) Knowingly using a false academic credential is a gross misdemeanor."
Seems doubtful that it gets prosecuted much though.
"... (2) A person is guilty of knowingly using a false academic credential if the person knowingly uses a false academic credential or falsely claims to have a credential issued by an institution of higher education that is accredited by an accrediting association recognized as such by rule of the student achievement council:
(a) In a written or oral advertisement or other promotion of a business; or
(b) With the intent to:
(i) Obtain employment;
(ii) Obtain a license or certificate to practice a trade, profession, or occupation;
(iii) Obtain a promotion, compensation or other benefit, or an increase in compensation or other benefit, in employment or in the practice of a trade, profession, or occupation;
(iv) Obtain admission to an educational program in this state; or
(v) Gain a position in government with authority over another person, regardless of whether the person receives compensation for the position.
...
(4) Issuing a false academic credential is a class C felony.
(5) Knowingly using a false academic credential is a gross misdemeanor."
Seems doubtful that it gets prosecuted much though.
I don't think this defines what a false credential is, though.
It defines how one might illegally use one, or issue one, or falsely claim to have a real qualification, but I don't see a definition of a false credential.
It sounds like a false credential falsely claims to be accredited (ie. if I were to issue degrees from Harvard), which is not what the OP institution is doing, so this discussion is possibly moot.
It defines how one might illegally use one, or issue one, or falsely claim to have a real qualification, but I don't see a definition of a false credential.
It sounds like a false credential falsely claims to be accredited (ie. if I were to issue degrees from Harvard), which is not what the OP institution is doing, so this discussion is possibly moot.
It can amount to financial fraud (or at least incompetence), shoddy engineering, adverse and inefficient selection for graduate and post-graduate studies, and so forth.
> No one cares about accreditation anyway.
Outside of HN and the SV bubble, accreditation really matters.
Outside of HN and the SV bubble, accreditation really matters.
Not in trades. These students will graduate with years of experience, taking the website explanation at face value. There isn't something akin to ABET, or even FE/PE exams for these skills, but if they can count their work experience while in school here, they can become licensed tradesmen in states with work and apprenticeship requirements.
It becomes a massive issue in trades if you want to migrate to another country.
Some countries are very stringent about accredited qualifications for certain trades.
Some countries are very stringent about accredited qualifications for certain trades.
Accreditation might matter for student loans, immigration, etc.
Back when I was a manual laborer, if you could pick up a hammer and hit the nail every time - or mixup a good batch of mud - or drive a skidder of logs to the landing - that was the interview and accreditation.
College enabled me to talk fancier during that time.
College enabled me to talk fancier during that time.
You don't need trade school for hitting nail with hammer nor for digging holes. You don't need previous experience either.
For those kind of jobs this is complete waste of money.
For those kind of jobs this is complete waste of money.
I’m hiring for a Flutter and BLE job right now. Couldn’t possibly care less about accreditation and far from an HN-typical.
We’re out there. Really doesn’t matter on the specific job, all I care is, can you do it, and will you be a distraction?
We’re out there. Really doesn’t matter on the specific job, all I care is, can you do it, and will you be a distraction?
An accredited CS degree program is actually one of FreeCodeCamp's long-term goals.[0]
[0] https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/free-accredited-bachelors-...
[0] https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/free-accredited-bachelors-...
Oh you got your degree from Omnicorp College? Sorry, at Megacorp we only accept degrees from Megacorp University (a subsidiary of the Walt Disney-Unilever School). No one cares about accreditation.
How does writing a one-sentence cyberpunk story say anything about who cares about accreditation?
Our CS department just spent an entire year on our reaccreditation. It’s a huge pain in the ass and takes a ton of effort. But it’s one of the main thing parents ask about. People definitely care.
Parents ask... do employers? I would guess not.
Yes and no. Unaccredited are a red flag but proven abilities shows it was legitimate enough. Still makes it harder to get through the door with an unaccredited degree. Which is reason to care.
> Still makes it harder to get through the door with an unaccredited degree.
But who is checking? I’ve never asked myself if someone’s degree is accredited. I wouldn’t even know how to check if I cared.
But who is checking? I’ve never asked myself if someone’s degree is accredited. I wouldn’t even know how to check if I cared.
Are you involved in hiring? Because I check the degree of every single resume I review, I have to. The other day I got a resume from a candidate who has a degree from Albany State University which I never heard of. So I pulled up their website and go to the "Accreditation" link and saw that it's accredited by the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools Commission on Colleges.
> So I pulled up their website and go to the "Accreditation" link
But… why? What do you then do with information? Reject people if their college isn’t accredited? Why?
But… why? What do you then do with information? Reject people if their college isn’t accredited? Why?
Yes, because it's company policy.
Even if it wasn't comment policy - when you're reviewing the resumes of Jr engineers who have literary zero work experience who do you interview/hire - the guy with the mail-order "degree" or the guy who has an accredited degree?
Even if it wasn't comment policy - when you're reviewing the resumes of Jr engineers who have literary zero work experience who do you interview/hire - the guy with the mail-order "degree" or the guy who has an accredited degree?
> Yes, because it's company policy.
But why? Lol what does it achieve? What’s the point?
> when you're reviewing the resumes of Jr engineers who have literary zero work experience
Maybe look at what they can do not where they learned it? How do you evaluate self-taught and people with no degrees? Does no degree beat non-accredited or not?
And here’s another question - why do you trust the accreditors? What do they know that colleges don’t? How do you evaluate an accreditor?
But why? Lol what does it achieve? What’s the point?
> when you're reviewing the resumes of Jr engineers who have literary zero work experience
Maybe look at what they can do not where they learned it? How do you evaluate self-taught and people with no degrees? Does no degree beat non-accredited or not?
And here’s another question - why do you trust the accreditors? What do they know that colleges don’t? How do you evaluate an accreditor?
You're asking me about a company policy I had no part in. But why? Lol what does that achieve? Making you look clever on the internet? Concern trolling?
If there's no point in anything and nothing is ever achieved then why does anyone spend time and money on getting an education and including it in their resume? Maybe there is a point and something is achieved after all.
EDIT: >How do you evaluate self-taught and people with no degrees?
I don't, I literally just told you company policy is Jr candidates must have an accredited degree.
I have no idea what nonsense you're rambling on about. The question was who is checking degree accreditation and that's what I answered.
If there's no point in anything and nothing is ever achieved then why does anyone spend time and money on getting an education and including it in their resume? Maybe there is a point and something is achieved after all.
EDIT: >How do you evaluate self-taught and people with no degrees?
I don't, I literally just told you company policy is Jr candidates must have an accredited degree.
I have no idea what nonsense you're rambling on about. The question was who is checking degree accreditation and that's what I answered.
If my company told me to check accreditation I'd ask these questions to them because it seems discriminatory and nonsensical and I'd be worried about their thinking.
> why does anyone spend time and money on getting an education and including it in their resume?
The point is the education - not the accreditation.
> why does anyone spend time and money on getting an education and including it in their resume?
The point is the education - not the accreditation.
I'm pretty sure I've seen it on government job postings. In fact, many of the federal CS jobs require ABET-accredited degree programs, which is annoying because many of the better programs aren't (Stanford and CMU, for example).
Accreditation may matter for immigration (some places give extra points to people with degrees), possibly student loans, and things like that.
Accreditation may matter for immigration (some places give extra points to people with degrees), possibly student loans, and things like that.
If your recruiting pipeline isn't doing a background check, you need a new recruiting pipeline.
I still don’t get it - why would you check accreditation as part of a background check? Like why do you care? What do you do with the information? Why do you care what an accrediting body thinks about anything?
Are you seriously asking why you should care that a candidate is possibly lying about or misrepresenting their credentials and skills to you?
Parents are the ones who pay.
> It would take a wealthy person to put their name on it, and be a struggle to get the first cohort off the ground, but once you get solid lecturers and a good reputation it would be self-fulfilling.
Any real world examples of this? Besides the Thiel fund of course, which is a ideological vanity project.
Any real world examples of this? Besides the Thiel fund of course, which is a ideological vanity project.
Vanderbilt, Yale, Stanford, Duke, Carnegie Mellon.
Rich people have been putting their names on institutions of higher learning for some time.
Rich people have been putting their names on institutions of higher learning for some time.
Stanford had to do all kinds of shit to make its way up the rankings, the Termans in particular, just pulling all the stops on the way to number 1. It got $80,000 in WW2 when in contrast Caltech got $120,000,000. As Steve Blank put it, DoD (then Department of War) had no respect for Stanford engineering. They just plucked Terman put him in charge at Harvard. Harvard Radio Lab. It used to be bombers didn't get through, Terman changed that, after WW2, "the bomber will always get through." Then he plucked 8 guys from the Harvard Radio Lab, made them Stanford professors, and that's when Stanford started getting...a little bit of respect. It helped his best students became strong entrepreneurs like he wanted them to be, AND were generous--David Packard becoming Stanford's greatest benefactor in fact, in particular donating directly to the Stanford Endowment so the University could do whatever it thought was best--and having a long-lasting string of successes. This longevity was based on Stanford engineering graduates.
There's other colleges named after whomever, anybody, and they don't go anywhere. There's a lot of cooperation required, a lot of people refusing to let each and every other one of them down.
There's other colleges named after whomever, anybody, and they don't go anywhere. There's a lot of cooperation required, a lot of people refusing to let each and every other one of them down.
There is a new university called UATX that is trying https://www.uaustin.org/
But they seem to be going down the route of trying to get accredited. IMO no one cares about any of that except other academics, businesses only care about talent and intelligence.
But they seem to be going down the route of trying to get accredited. IMO no one cares about any of that except other academics, businesses only care about talent and intelligence.
Immigration agencies tend to care.
Accreditation is meant to protect students (in the new model, customers) from scams. Would you, personally, go to a college that wasn't accredited?
> Would you, personally, go to a college that wasn't accredited?
If there was solid evidence of a pipeline towards big tech, then maybe? I went to K-State which is accredited and yet no big tech recruits from there. The only way I got into the big tech game was starting a company in the mid-west and having CTO on my resume.
If there was solid evidence of a pipeline towards big tech, then maybe? I went to K-State which is accredited and yet no big tech recruits from there. The only way I got into the big tech game was starting a company in the mid-west and having CTO on my resume.
I've never seen solid evidence, that the public would be able to see, of a pipeline to big tech except at Stanford, and maybe Harvard, because that's what people talk about and put in movies. I am not saying there isn't a "pipeline" anywhere else, just that the pipeline has to be very big and obvious before a highschooler or a midwestern parent of a highschooler would know about it.
If it was really true that nothing mattered except for quality, there'd hardly be a need for universities at all, because students could buy books and self-teach or hire tutors. Nonetheless, that is almost never done, because outward signs like accreditation matter a lot.
If it was really true that nothing mattered except for quality, there'd hardly be a need for universities at all, because students could buy books and self-teach or hire tutors. Nonetheless, that is almost never done, because outward signs like accreditation matter a lot.
The University of Waterloo’s co-op program is a major pipeline into big tech. I’ve worked with Waterloo interns and graduates many times and they’ve all been well above average.
But you've picked one of the most prominent schools in Canada as an example. A good example would be somewhere that isn't already extremely prestigious.
Canada isn’t like the US. Canadian universities expand. They don’t have anywhere near the degree of difference in prestige an American thinks normal.
Also, seriously, Waterloo is one one of the most prominent schools? Most Americans don’t know it exists, never mind have an opinion on how prestigious it is. I know it has a fantastic CS programme, with coop every second semester and that is the sum total of my knowledge. That’s a lot more than most people know.
Also, seriously, Waterloo is one one of the most prominent schools? Most Americans don’t know it exists, never mind have an opinion on how prestigious it is. I know it has a fantastic CS programme, with coop every second semester and that is the sum total of my knowledge. That’s a lot more than most people know.
The other reason is that the learn from books alone simply does not work in practice. First, it is super hard to keep motivation without that external structure. And second, choosing books to learn from and choosing curriculum itself requires a lot of know how.
Yes - if a graduate can demonstrate they received a good education, then the reputation of the school will grow. Many rules for accreditation (like libraries with a certain number of books) make zero sense in 2022.
Would you, as a student, rather grow the reputation of your non-accredited institution by demonstrating over time that you don't match the prevailing prejudices against it, or would you rather go to an accredited institution that people can see with a little research, is not a diploma mill?
Graduate only, for now.
Accreditation is not necessary, but it matters. Also the reputation of the college, particularly in professional fields.
For trade school, it probably does not matter at all.
For trade school, it probably does not matter at all.
For $15k a year, couldn’t someone just apprentice in a trade and get paid?
Yes, the locals (union) my shop hires from offers classes to apprentices at the hiring hall these days, no trade school required. Multiple construction trades offer these programs, including the well-paid ones like electricians, pipefitters, ironworkers, and sheet metal workers. There are a ton of experienced tradespeople retiring and not enough younger workers entering the trades to replace them.
You're assuming apprenticeships are available. Friend of mine ended up going to community college because the apprenticeship he wanted had a waiting list that was several years long.
Wow. I happened to go to the College of St. Joseph [1] for my first semester of college, so you can imagine my surprise at this link. Apparently the college I went to closed in 2019. That's sad, it was very good to me. I guess that's why this new org added "the worker" to their name.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_of_St._Joseph
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_of_St._Joseph
Do you really need to pay $15k a year to learn HVAC from guys with PhDs in Theology?
> Do you really need to pay $15k a year to learn HVAC from guys with PhDs in Theology?
An incredibly ignorant and uneducated comment that’s unnecessarily dismissive.
It took two seconds to confirm on their website that your comment is wrong. Not all their faculty is theology
An incredibly ignorant and uneducated comment that’s unnecessarily dismissive.
It took two seconds to confirm on their website that your comment is wrong. Not all their faculty is theology
I think you're wrong about this, and the parent comment makes a valid point about the credentials of the instructors at this organization, which appears to have as much a political mission as it does an educational mission. It's also priced higher than a community college, but lacks accreditation or, presumably, the facilities of a typical CC.
Yes, it's only half theology degrees - there's also a philosophy and a history degree. The only ones actually related to the trades are two guys with no listed degree. One says "Math and Engineering", and other just says the single word "carpentry".
Sounds like exactly the qualifications I'd want for an expensive HVAC certification...
Sounds like exactly the qualifications I'd want for an expensive HVAC certification...
It is still significantly more expensive than existing Salesian programs. There’s definitely an ideological component here they expect someone will pay for.
> devoted most of the years of his life on earth to manual work
Not sure sure about those missing 12 years, tho.;-|
Not sure sure about those missing 12 years, tho.;-|
>Christian tradition suggests that Jesus simply lived in Galilee during that period
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unknown_years_of_Jesus#New_Tes...
That period is what they're referring to by "most of the years of his life".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unknown_years_of_Jesus#New_Tes...
That period is what they're referring to by "most of the years of his life".
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This is the Catholic Church returning to its roots - ensuring the aristocracy a supply of diligent, compliant workers.
Don't you know that a liberal arts degree has the exact opposite aim? And the Catholic Church has always supported them. On the other hand the modern university sees STEM as the only thing worthwhile because it's "useful" and liberal arts as worthless because they're "useless". Even today in countries with a Catholic heritage the work culture still places a high value on leisure.
Good. It's a more satisfying life for the Last Man than to be an intellectually neutered, woke, and subordinate dependent.
I was hoping the religion part would be more of a background thing and not a core tenant of the program. No option to skip the BA in Catholic Studies.
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tenet
So, to begin with, high school graduates who go to these schools were predisposed to go to a Catholic liberal arts college. If the College in the article is successful in its mission, these folks will graduate with the degree they wanted, in the surroundings/environment they wanted, but also with solid career possibilities.
People have been swearing up and down for over a decade that the US graduates far more people with bachelors degrees than we "need", and that more parents[0] should be encouraging their kids to learn a trade. This new college is a response to that.
[0] it's seldom "us"; the problem seems to be isolated, in many peoples' minds, to other peoples' kids, and they don't want their own kids to be the ones who learn a trade.