Sitting and standing at work (2015)(ergo.human.cornell.edu)
ergo.human.cornell.edu
Sitting and standing at work (2015)
http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/CUESitStand.html
133 comments
There's a performance that's happening during a meeting with cameras that I find really draining and unnatural. I go into high alert for how I am presenting on camera. As the number of participants increases it gets worse.
I've tried this a few times with another coworker. I don't know. It just didn't quite work for either of us. The connection didn't seem as stable. There's more noise even if neither of us was walking in a particularly noisy place. Voice only without video changes the dynamic. It's not possible to write down notes or look something up relevant to the conversation.
When we're in the same physical location, we do walking 1:1s and they work great. I'm not quite sure what exactly is different about them over Zoom or the phone.
When we're in the same physical location, we do walking 1:1s and they work great. I'm not quite sure what exactly is different about them over Zoom or the phone.
Probably body language. We are able to subconsciously read and give many clues, which helps fill in for the other missing stuff.
Yep, body language, but since I am autistic I have trouble reading it, and the more people in the video call the more I get overwhelmed. An audio call is less overwhelming, and just walking while discussing (IRL or on audio call) is inspiring. It allows for the diffused mode of the brain to take control.
> since the pandemic and WFH, I've started doing a lot of my 1:1s
while walking, voice only. I'd be really interested to know if
anyone else has started doing this?
Yes, +1 for this.
The pandemic made me unfit and put on weight. When I teach I pace about, gesticulate, use the whiteboard lots and generally burn a ton of calories. I really missed that. Desk-based admin or videoconf meetings are down my can-do list now. Trying to reserve chair time for coding.
I see other comments on "how do you take notes or send messages?" Mobile speech-to-text and text-to-speech are on my radar, but far from perfect results. I enjoyed the thread last week on throat mics and bone conduction headphones, possibly very useful tech to use for walking and working.
Yes, +1 for this.
The pandemic made me unfit and put on weight. When I teach I pace about, gesticulate, use the whiteboard lots and generally burn a ton of calories. I really missed that. Desk-based admin or videoconf meetings are down my can-do list now. Trying to reserve chair time for coding.
I see other comments on "how do you take notes or send messages?" Mobile speech-to-text and text-to-speech are on my radar, but far from perfect results. I enjoyed the thread last week on throat mics and bone conduction headphones, possibly very useful tech to use for walking and working.
Maybe this will help you (and maybe I will just sound like a jerk shrugs), but the pandemic didn't make you unfit and put on weight, you and your diet did. I have been struggling with this for the last few years and while pacing about (or any movement really) certainly helps, you can veeery easily outeat whatever you burned; our bodies are freakishly efficient. I would recommend trying to take a look at whether your diet changed while working from home and if not, trying to change it up so that it corresponds to your current activity levels.
... or if you don't care, then don't, it would have just helped me if someone pointed this out to me earlier in my life, so I try to do it for other people.
... or if you don't care, then don't, it would have just helped me if someone pointed this out to me earlier in my life, so I try to do it for other people.
Your absolutely right mate, and thanks for taking a punt on "seeming a
jerk" and saying the honest truth. My diet definitely changed for the
worse during that time. Bulking up is a comfort/stress behaviour for
sure. And boredom. How those hours indoors seemed to linger if I'm not
lost in code or creativity.
But now it's under control again I need to find tricks to keep both the munching and the burn working together. Part of the walking benefit isn't just calorie output, it's the positive mental state that comes with the deal, that makes me not think about food for 8 hours at a time.
respects.
But now it's under control again I need to find tricks to keep both the munching and the burn working together. Part of the walking benefit isn't just calorie output, it's the positive mental state that comes with the deal, that makes me not think about food for 8 hours at a time.
respects.
How do you take notes or otherwise record key points or concerns when you’re walking? Or are you physically close to your computer?
I’ve had managers who would do stuff like this, not in front of a computer. As you might imagine the experience working with them was not great and led me to change managers because they’d never recall what we talked about because they were distracted.
I’ve had managers who would do stuff like this, not in front of a computer. As you might imagine the experience working with them was not great and led me to change managers because they’d never recall what we talked about because they were distracted.
I have a board in my office and my kitchen, so as I am pacing around on calls I will periodically walk over to the nearest board to scribble a note.
At the end of each day I will convert my whiteboard notes into GitHub issues.
Every day begins with a blank board.
It took me a really long time to get into this habit, but I never forget anything now. Relying on others to take notes for you is a huge mistake.
At the end of each day I will convert my whiteboard notes into GitHub issues.
Every day begins with a blank board.
It took me a really long time to get into this habit, but I never forget anything now. Relying on others to take notes for you is a huge mistake.
I mean in a 1:1 setting, the manager needs to take notes if he can't remember basic things like what we discussed 7 days ago. It has happened to me in the past, and their aloofness has resulted in me quitting my job. The onus of remembering is on my manager to make sure those 1:1 don't result in me leaving, not me.
I concur. While walking might be beneficial for the manager it'll be a problem long term (unless you think your memory is incredibly strong, which I doubt)
I can’t take detailed notes but will punch key ideas and follow ups into my phone.
This is what I do, too.
I'm not a big believer in making detailed notes during a 1:1
When necessary, I capture key points and action items in my phone while walking.
I'm not a big believer in making detailed notes during a 1:1
When necessary, I capture key points and action items in my phone while walking.
same, and i do many walking meetings as well. i would however like to tap some_number to add the last x seconds of the conversation into a note - either as audio or transcribed.
of course requires pre-recording consent. i could then annotate those notes later, which is helpful to me regardless (e.g. even in sitting meets, i will often take notes with a pen, and then later re-type key points (digitally) into a more focused version).
finally, any tips on microphones which filter out surrounding noise well (so the people on the call aren't bothered by my background noise)? plantronics voyager 6200 is the best i have used so far, and most reviews focus on your listening experience, rather than the listening experience of the other parties...
of course requires pre-recording consent. i could then annotate those notes later, which is helpful to me regardless (e.g. even in sitting meets, i will often take notes with a pen, and then later re-type key points (digitally) into a more focused version).
finally, any tips on microphones which filter out surrounding noise well (so the people on the call aren't bothered by my background noise)? plantronics voyager 6200 is the best i have used so far, and most reviews focus on your listening experience, rather than the listening experience of the other parties...
Hi, maybe try www.feeting.app. They do transcription and manual note-taking very smooth "Hey Feeting...". You also get all the meeting highlights like hot topics, questions, actions, follow-ups, feeting sentiment and speaking times afterwards.
They're doing an awesome job with background noise cancellation and the spatial audio is superb (if your headphones and phone support it). It gives the feeling to be with the other people "in the same room".
They're doing an awesome job with background noise cancellation and the spatial audio is superb (if your headphones and phone support it). It gives the feeling to be with the other people "in the same room".
> I'd be really interested to know if anyone else has started doing this?
We used to do this at the office and it was great. For private meetings between 2 people, go for a walk!
It has worked great for mastermind calls also.
But now at a new job that’s fully wfh it somehow didn’t stick. I tried a few times but I’m asked to participate too actively and people get frustrated with background noise because they aren’t using headphones at home. Laptop speakers are just not high quality enough to make it work even with voice isolation.
Plus I have too many back-to-backs nowadays and walking outside creates too much overhead. Kept missing things.
We used to do this at the office and it was great. For private meetings between 2 people, go for a walk!
It has worked great for mastermind calls also.
But now at a new job that’s fully wfh it somehow didn’t stick. I tried a few times but I’m asked to participate too actively and people get frustrated with background noise because they aren’t using headphones at home. Laptop speakers are just not high quality enough to make it work even with voice isolation.
Plus I have too many back-to-backs nowadays and walking outside creates too much overhead. Kept missing things.
I did the "walking 1:1 meetings" at a former job. Hated it. Useless for any topic where you might want to take or refer to notes, or other reference material, which IMO is basically a given for any meeting worth having.
I actually do this quite a bit, and I've found that getting a kit of USB-C-chargeable devices (phone, headset, and laptop) plus a battery pack and an effectively unlimited tethered 5G data plan means I can work from anywhere I please. The down side of it is I find myself in these epic places staring down three hours of back-to-back meetings when I just want to lean back and look at a tree.
I'm a big believer in walking, but not been doing meetings that way. It's great that works for you, and I'll just mention some thoughts for other people to consider as they experiment with it.
My current startup hasn't had good luck with WHF and cross-site meetings using smartphones when someone is outdoors. Even just within the US, when someone is on their smartphone, MS Teams (mandated) or their network connectivity means their audio often gets choppy, they don't seem to be as engaged, etc. It's not as reliable audio as, say, a landline conference call from decades ago.
I think the missing whiteboard or shared screen would also be a problem in practice for me. The last 1:1 that I was in, Fri, for example, I did an impromptu screenshare of a visual that was important to what we were discussing, and that's very common.
Also, in that same example meeting, I took notes, and then afterwards updated a few Jira Tasks based the new information. My memory is fine, and I probably didn't need the notes that time, but I don't always know at the start of a meeting whether I'll need to take notes, nor how big the notes will be, nor whether the notes will be useful, nor whether it'll be worth spending time after distilling useful info into Jira/docs/comms, or just (I do this sometimes) copy&pasting the semi-useful raw notes directly into a Jira comment and moving on.
My current startup hasn't had good luck with WHF and cross-site meetings using smartphones when someone is outdoors. Even just within the US, when someone is on their smartphone, MS Teams (mandated) or their network connectivity means their audio often gets choppy, they don't seem to be as engaged, etc. It's not as reliable audio as, say, a landline conference call from decades ago.
I think the missing whiteboard or shared screen would also be a problem in practice for me. The last 1:1 that I was in, Fri, for example, I did an impromptu screenshare of a visual that was important to what we were discussing, and that's very common.
Also, in that same example meeting, I took notes, and then afterwards updated a few Jira Tasks based the new information. My memory is fine, and I probably didn't need the notes that time, but I don't always know at the start of a meeting whether I'll need to take notes, nor how big the notes will be, nor whether the notes will be useful, nor whether it'll be worth spending time after distilling useful info into Jira/docs/comms, or just (I do this sometimes) copy&pasting the semi-useful raw notes directly into a Jira comment and moving on.
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I take basically all calls and remote meetings while walking when possible (ie I don't need to refer to stuff on the computer). Sometimes it's outside, others I'm just pacing back and forth in my apartment. I find my performance is much better this way, and also I just feel better.
I've taken this so far now that I bought a lavalier mic + wind guard to use with my phone, so that others don't have to suffer the audio quality of the AirPods mic. If I need to take notes, I type them into the iPhone Notes app. Transferring them to the 'source of truth' on the computer (Workflowy for me, probably Notion etc for many others) also has the benefit of reviewing everything.
I've taken this so far now that I bought a lavalier mic + wind guard to use with my phone, so that others don't have to suffer the audio quality of the AirPods mic. If I need to take notes, I type them into the iPhone Notes app. Transferring them to the 'source of truth' on the computer (Workflowy for me, probably Notion etc for many others) also has the benefit of reviewing everything.
Sort of. I just use a still photo of myself rather than live video. Nothing is really gained by the other party seing my lips move. I don't have to worry about whether I've shaved, or my hair is mussed up, or if I'm dressed in work attire, or if I'm looking at the screen. It's much easier to focus on the content of the call without all those distractions.
“ Nothing is really gained by the other party seing my lips move.“
Eh, maybe for you. Hard of hearing folks and more extroverted folks will disagree. Depends on your team.
Agree 100%. There's _so_ much additional information that human faces provide outside of the spoken language. It's often hard to interpret, especially over a video call, but turning that channel off completely is definitely a loss of signal.
I'd much rather develop my use and interpretation of facial expressions than ignore them.
I'd much rather develop my use and interpretation of facial expressions than ignore them.
I spent 17 years as a WFH product manager and, by far, my most performant meeting mode was on audio only conferences where I could free roam around my large house. Walking really makes a difference in my ability to think and communicate through complex problems.
The shift to video and its static position was a huge backslide in my ability to do my job well.
The shift to video and its static position was a huge backslide in my ability to do my job well.
Not myself but our tech VP does this all the time.
It's kinda funny when he runs into neighbors or sees a weird reptile (he's in Florida)
It's kinda funny when he runs into neighbors or sees a weird reptile (he's in Florida)
I also try this (and was always doing it) but often others would complain about extra ambient noises - steps, wind, whatnot. So I can't do it as often as I'd like...
Just to put it out there, there is no such thing as good Bluetooth headphones. The audio quality is horrible due to the protocol, and earbuds just make the problem even worse.
The greater issue for this use case is latency. Bluetooth + cellular delay is not a kind thing to impose on your teammates.
Bluetooth LE?
Two companies ago I had a wonderful koi pond outside the office around which my 1:1 and I would walk around and enjoy the tranquility. It was great and I very much miss it.
I did this often for some meetings, mostly just to discuss problems where we didn't need to take notes. Double purpose was taking the dog for a walk as well as myself.
Same here. Back to the 80s!
I was born in the mid 80s but I once heard that the economy of the 80s was basically “people talking to other people on the phone.”
If you do this, please use a cabled headset. Bluetooth headsets inevitably add latency, particularly off WiFi. Latency makes meetings more fatiguing.
A big drawback to this of course is that it's very difficult to take notes or jot something down while walking around.
I do something similar and log into most meetings from multiple devices for meeting flexibility (and stability).
1) Laptop undocked / docked to monitors. For watching, screen share and often webcam. Sometimes take screenshots and notes if needed.
2) I tried an iPad Mini 5 after a recommendation and don't know how I lived without one for calls.
- It has become my primary meeting communication device.
- It provides most stable Zoom/Teams experience I've ever had - and the load doesn't impact my work machine.
- This device is all about maximising weight and size/volume. Small enough to carry, throw it in a sling for a walk and be able to pull it out if needed. great to carry a meeting or a call with me and be more useful than a phone.. Going for a walk, stretching out your legs, visiting the kitchen, and yes, sometimes even transferring the call to your car for audio while driving is smooth and generally seamless.
- I more easily see things on the meeting, interact, run a whiteboard, and contribute at a moment's notice if needed. Don't have to explain that I'm dialling by phone in or why. Being able to kick over to a whiteboard to doodle is handy compared to a powerpoint to get ideas across anyways.
- In Person - I almost always take the mini to meetings. The mini is not as distracting as a laptop keyboard or typing on a phone. Easy to bring up something to share and hand it over too.
- Great battery life, everything stays fast and doesn't need rebooting.
- I have muted nearly every notification on the iPad and it makes it even better to only work for me and not fight for my attention.
- Bluetooth works great, and the speaker/microphones are very decent.
Bluetooth Headphones:
- One tricky part of bluetooth headsets is noise cancelling might only be for what you hear, but te other party doesn't get noise cancelling from your mic and hear all your background.
- Currently I mostly use two pairs of Jabra 85t's that I alternate and charge since they only last 5h each. Only caveat of these is you can't use both the right earbud independently and not the left. Very decent noise cancelling for outdoors and indoors. I avoided the AirPods or others because I wasn't sure how good their noise cancelling was for the speaker (me) on a call.
- My interest is in that noise cancel on the mic for the other party. I'd love to hear what's working for you as there seem to be too many to keep up with. Heard good thigns about the Jabra 75e as well primarily for meetings and voice.
1) Laptop undocked / docked to monitors. For watching, screen share and often webcam. Sometimes take screenshots and notes if needed.
2) I tried an iPad Mini 5 after a recommendation and don't know how I lived without one for calls.
- It has become my primary meeting communication device.
- It provides most stable Zoom/Teams experience I've ever had - and the load doesn't impact my work machine.
- This device is all about maximising weight and size/volume. Small enough to carry, throw it in a sling for a walk and be able to pull it out if needed. great to carry a meeting or a call with me and be more useful than a phone.. Going for a walk, stretching out your legs, visiting the kitchen, and yes, sometimes even transferring the call to your car for audio while driving is smooth and generally seamless.
- I more easily see things on the meeting, interact, run a whiteboard, and contribute at a moment's notice if needed. Don't have to explain that I'm dialling by phone in or why. Being able to kick over to a whiteboard to doodle is handy compared to a powerpoint to get ideas across anyways.
- In Person - I almost always take the mini to meetings. The mini is not as distracting as a laptop keyboard or typing on a phone. Easy to bring up something to share and hand it over too.
- Great battery life, everything stays fast and doesn't need rebooting.
- I have muted nearly every notification on the iPad and it makes it even better to only work for me and not fight for my attention.
- Bluetooth works great, and the speaker/microphones are very decent.
Bluetooth Headphones:
- One tricky part of bluetooth headsets is noise cancelling might only be for what you hear, but te other party doesn't get noise cancelling from your mic and hear all your background.
- Currently I mostly use two pairs of Jabra 85t's that I alternate and charge since they only last 5h each. Only caveat of these is you can't use both the right earbud independently and not the left. Very decent noise cancelling for outdoors and indoors. I avoided the AirPods or others because I wasn't sure how good their noise cancelling was for the speaker (me) on a call.
- My interest is in that noise cancel on the mic for the other party. I'd love to hear what's working for you as there seem to be too many to keep up with. Heard good thigns about the Jabra 75e as well primarily for meetings and voice.
The ultimate state is Wolfram walking around in the woods with a laptop harness:
https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2019/02/seeking-the-prod...
Seems like a bit of bulky setup.
Kinda hoping in the next decade or so we'll get good enough augmented reality that we'll be able to walk around in the woods with a floating terminal. Maybe a chorded keyer for input.
Kinda hoping in the next decade or so we'll get good enough augmented reality that we'll be able to walk around in the woods with a floating terminal. Maybe a chorded keyer for input.
> Kinda hoping in the next decade or so we'll get good enough augmented reality that we'll be able to walk around in the woods with a floating terminal. Maybe a chorded keyer for input.
Wolfram has also had that hope, according to the linked article:
> I’d actually been thinking about walking and working for a long time. Twenty years ago I imagined doing it with an augmented reality display and a one-handed (chorded) keyboard. But the technology didn’t arrive, and I wasn’t even sure the ergonomics would work out (would it make me motion sick, for example?).
Wolfram has also had that hope, according to the linked article:
> I’d actually been thinking about walking and working for a long time. Twenty years ago I imagined doing it with an augmented reality display and a one-handed (chorded) keyboard. But the technology didn’t arrive, and I wasn’t even sure the ergonomics would work out (would it make me motion sick, for example?).
Oops, I should have read it -- I just scrolled and looked at the pictures, haha.
I've tried one of these, and it's difficult to type and walk at the same time. I love walking, sometimes walking for multiple hours on the weekends, but I wasn't able to make the "walking workstation" work.
“The bottom line:
Sit to do computer work. Sit using a height-adjustable, downward titling keyboard tray for the best work posture, then every 20 minutes stand for 8 minutes AND MOVE for 2 minutes. “
Pretty sensible that movement is key to solution. Long on-camera remote meetings always bug me and I tend to take a few minutes to walk around or pace if I can go camera off.
Pretty sensible that movement is key to solution. Long on-camera remote meetings always bug me and I tend to take a few minutes to walk around or pace if I can go camera off.
Anecdotally, I have had a sit-stand desk for 6 months. I sit for tasks which require typing and stand for the majority of calls I participate in. I average about 2 hours of calls a day.
Before getting the desk I would get stiff in the day from over-sitting. Since getting the desk that is been corrected. When standing I find I am more expressive in calls and feel I fidget less while listening. I should note I sometimes catch myself with the desk at a weird height and I have taken on a gollum pose crouched on my chair.
I think I would agree that the level of computing work is slightly impaired while standing. I am not sure the reasoning. I feel my posture is good and it is comfortable to do. Perhaps cognitively this is not a task I have enough practice doing while standing.
Before getting the desk I would get stiff in the day from over-sitting. Since getting the desk that is been corrected. When standing I find I am more expressive in calls and feel I fidget less while listening. I should note I sometimes catch myself with the desk at a weird height and I have taken on a gollum pose crouched on my chair.
I think I would agree that the level of computing work is slightly impaired while standing. I am not sure the reasoning. I feel my posture is good and it is comfortable to do. Perhaps cognitively this is not a task I have enough practice doing while standing.
+1 on standing for meetings/calls. I’ve found it helps me be more alert and pay more attention, and the change of posture prevents getting sore from sitting on my ass all day.
> and the change of posture prevents getting sore from sitting on my ass all day.
The change of posture prevents my ass from getting sore from sitting on it all day.
The change of posture prevents my ass from getting sore from sitting on it all day.
Hah have had a standing desk that you can sit and code on too for ~ 6 years. I think I’m the other way around, I prefer standing for coding, as I can concentrate and forget which position my body is actually in. But meetings are just sooo much less bandwidth of information that I get bored easily. Standing for them just feels silly to me, so I either walk around or sit somewhere comfortable like a couch / sofa / balcony and enjoy drinking some tea.
If you find it difficult to stand for long period of time (as I did, after purchasing a standing desk) then I implore you to consider getting an under desk treadmill. I went from spending 15-30 minutes a DAY standing, to 4+ hours walking.
Doesn't that make it hard to type, you ask? Well, the posted article does mention this:
> Treadmill, bicycle and elliptical workstations have been tested and typically shown to decrease computer work performance (typing and mousing slows down and significantly more mistakes are made).
But personally, I got used to it quickly and found that my performance on the computer did not decrease at all for programming related tasks, where ultra fine mouse movements are not necessary. If I were trying to play Call of Duty or something, then surely I would not walk.
The one time where I do find sitting to be ideal is when I really need to focus very intently on a task. For example, if it's an entirely new problem domain where I need to read a lot and focus at my maximum attention, then I need to be seated quietly, in a dim room, for a long period of time.
Doesn't that make it hard to type, you ask? Well, the posted article does mention this:
> Treadmill, bicycle and elliptical workstations have been tested and typically shown to decrease computer work performance (typing and mousing slows down and significantly more mistakes are made).
But personally, I got used to it quickly and found that my performance on the computer did not decrease at all for programming related tasks, where ultra fine mouse movements are not necessary. If I were trying to play Call of Duty or something, then surely I would not walk.
The one time where I do find sitting to be ideal is when I really need to focus very intently on a task. For example, if it's an entirely new problem domain where I need to read a lot and focus at my maximum attention, then I need to be seated quietly, in a dim room, for a long period of time.
Would you mind sharing which treadmill you use/recommend?
https://www.treadly.co/
This is what I use. But, I would encourage you to do some quick searching on Amazon. There are some much cheaper options that may do all you need. Technically the treadly treadmill is for working out / running. It's HUGE attractive feature for me was that I could store it under my bed when company comes over and I need the office to look tidy.
Also worth mentioning that I have the treadly model 1 (they're on v2.0) and I've had to send it in twice for repair. It's now out of warranty, and if it fails again I will be screwed. Hence why I've done a quick Amazon search myself and seen that indeed there are some interesting options since my purchase a few years ago.
This is what I use. But, I would encourage you to do some quick searching on Amazon. There are some much cheaper options that may do all you need. Technically the treadly treadmill is for working out / running. It's HUGE attractive feature for me was that I could store it under my bed when company comes over and I need the office to look tidy.
Also worth mentioning that I have the treadly model 1 (they're on v2.0) and I've had to send it in twice for repair. It's now out of warranty, and if it fails again I will be screwed. Hence why I've done a quick Amazon search myself and seen that indeed there are some interesting options since my purchase a few years ago.
Thanks and sorry, another question if you don't mind. How easy is it (in general, not necessarily fo this model you mention) to transition from walking to sitting and vice-versa? Do you just roll it away and roll in you chair?
Their main argument against sit-stand desks is that people don't actually stand much: "In our field studies of sit-stand workstations we have found little evidence of dramatic widespread benefits and users only stand for very short-periods (15 minutes or less total per day). Other studies have found that the use of sit-stand stations rapidly declines so that after 1 month a majority of people are sitting all the time, so compliance can be problematic."
While that's a consideration if the question is "should we install these desks everywhere", if you already use a sit-stand desk and know you spend substantial time in both positions (as I do) that's not a reason to switch to full-time sitting.
While that's a consideration if the question is "should we install these desks everywhere", if you already use a sit-stand desk and know you spend substantial time in both positions (as I do) that's not a reason to switch to full-time sitting.
WFH is wonderful because you can go from sitting in lotus to standing with a gentle sway to lying down to barefoot yoga all without raising any eyebrows. Eg. I love lying on my belly with a pillow propping up my chest and my laptop in front of me. No way to reasonably do that at 99% of offices.
I used to do that quite a bit, but I developed thoracic outlet syndrome (nerve compression) and some other odd shoulder problems.
now I have a gantry with a monitor that slides over my bed and can lie on my back with a kinesis keyboard at lap level and go for hours without any discomfort.
now I have a gantry with a monitor that slides over my bed and can lie on my back with a kinesis keyboard at lap level and go for hours without any discomfort.
Can you share more about this setup? I’d like to build something similar.
I used some pieces of 1-1/4 inch square steel tube with 1/8" wall to make some adjustable 90 degree clamps that grab 1" tube. then i made a custom clamp with a 100mm vesa plate attached. and 4 short pieces of tube with wheels attached.
then just cut 1" tube to approximate size, assemble, and adjust. it rolls back and forth along both sides of the bed. I have it set about 3 feet above me, and I added a little shelf to hold a laptop and other crap, and wire tied a power strip to the side. bluetooth trackball and kinesis.
its a bit odd, but its really nice to be able to work in a neutral and relaxed position. I usually only do lying work, sitting work, or standing work for about an hour at a time.
then just cut 1" tube to approximate size, assemble, and adjust. it rolls back and forth along both sides of the bed. I have it set about 3 feet above me, and I added a little shelf to hold a laptop and other crap, and wire tied a power strip to the side. bluetooth trackball and kinesis.
its a bit odd, but its really nice to be able to work in a neutral and relaxed position. I usually only do lying work, sitting work, or standing work for about an hour at a time.
That's great! But I never understood how people can be productive on a laptop. I feel like having such a small screen reduces your productivity drastically. I would be very unproductive on a laptop.
Product that would be really useful here is a sit stand desk that you can schedule: there’s just no way I’m realistically gonna context switch every 20 and 10 minutes to adjust my desk height; if it just happened and I had to intervene to stop it, I’d probably let it happen
The last sit-stand desk I had at work used LIN to talk between the interface and the motor. We built a little injection board to program this in for us. If you don't mind hacking the interface, it would be easier to solder something directly onto the microswitches and control that from an Arduino or whatever.
Isn't the proposal not to move your desk but to just get up and walk around? They specifically say simply standing isn't sufficient and the ergonomics of the standing desk isn't good anyways.
I stand for meetings, that’s a forcing function that prompts me to switch.
After 12 years of mostly standing for work (software development), the part of this article I sadly can agree with is the wrist/carpal tunnel issue.
I'm probably on the extreme end of "standers", as I routinely stand for 12+ hours at my computer. If my partner is not around, I'll not only stand for the full work day but also the entire evening. There may be days where the only time I sit is in the bathroom...
Only recently, as I allowed a bad diet and lack of exercise to become a problem, have I found myself less able to stand as much.
But the real issue is the forearms, wrists, and hands. I believe it should be possible to arrange my desktop in a way that gives me the same ergonomics as sitting (with respect to arms), but so far I haven't got it quite right.
Probably the right answer is just to cut my time at the computer in half and spend the other half of my time out being active :).
I'm probably on the extreme end of "standers", as I routinely stand for 12+ hours at my computer. If my partner is not around, I'll not only stand for the full work day but also the entire evening. There may be days where the only time I sit is in the bathroom...
Only recently, as I allowed a bad diet and lack of exercise to become a problem, have I found myself less able to stand as much.
But the real issue is the forearms, wrists, and hands. I believe it should be possible to arrange my desktop in a way that gives me the same ergonomics as sitting (with respect to arms), but so far I haven't got it quite right.
Probably the right answer is just to cut my time at the computer in half and spend the other half of my time out being active :).
I doubt I can be productive at programming if I have to be interrupted every 20, 8 and 2 minutes to adjust my stance. Every time I tried that I failed. Should I keep trying?
I just try to listen to my body. Are there times when I'm focused and productive for a couple hours, sure, but if not and there are opportunities to get up then I take them. I don't try and make it a hard and fast rule. I'll also try to go for a walk at lunch if I didn't ride my bike to the office that day.
Hmmm. I think it depends. Personally I just drink so much water I have to pee like every 30m. I think during this time I should take an extra five minutes and stand up!
how much water are you drinking to have to pee every 30m?
For myself, ~3 liters per day will do it. I make herbal tea in a liter at a time and for a while I was doing that 2~3 per day.
Note, I use 1 pouch per liter and usually rotate between a half a dozen different teas, so I'm not overdosing anything.
Note, I use 1 pouch per liter and usually rotate between a half a dozen different teas, so I'm not overdosing anything.
It is hyperbole, but lots of water.
yeah your Nephrologist might have something to say about that...
I haven't been able to programming standing but having all zoom meetings standing has been doable.
Related:
Cornell Ergonomics Web finds standing desks present their own issues - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2995194 - Sept 2011 (108 comments)
Cornell Ergonomics Web finds standing desks present their own issues - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2995194 - Sept 2011 (108 comments)
I have a sit/stand adjustable desk. Here's what I do:
1. Stand for first ~1 hour of the day.
2. Depending on how I feel, alternate sitting/standing about every hour or so until lunch.
3. After lunchtime, stand for ~30-60 minutes.
4. Repeat step 2 until end of day.
I also walk for ~30 minutes/day in the mid-morning. When I return from that, I sit.
I also take eye breaks and try to use a pomodoro method (25 min working, 5 min. looking away/etc).
The key to feeling good seems to be variety, as the article implies. I can't ever go back to a sitting-only desk arrangement.
1. Stand for first ~1 hour of the day.
2. Depending on how I feel, alternate sitting/standing about every hour or so until lunch.
3. After lunchtime, stand for ~30-60 minutes.
4. Repeat step 2 until end of day.
I also walk for ~30 minutes/day in the mid-morning. When I return from that, I sit.
I also take eye breaks and try to use a pomodoro method (25 min working, 5 min. looking away/etc).
The key to feeling good seems to be variety, as the article implies. I can't ever go back to a sitting-only desk arrangement.
Since I'm using one desk for work and personal use, I stand during working hours and sit down the rest of the time. There's something psychologically satisfying about splitting it that way.
I have been working on an iOS/MacOS app that reminds me to stand up and/or take breaks at certain intervals. It's using the iPhone's camera and local computer vision to collect ground truth.
Drop me an email at "hello at danylo dot me", if you would like to beta test with me. Or watch an informal demo here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvzHrwjU9TU
Drop me an email at "hello at danylo dot me", if you would like to beta test with me. Or watch an informal demo here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvzHrwjU9TU
> I have been working on an iOS/MacOS app that reminds me to stand up and/or take breaks at certain intervals.
I just put an hourglass on my desk, but out of reach. Sand runs out, get up to flip it. One nice feature is that it makes no noise so if I'm in a meeting and can't get up or attend to it, it isn't disrupting anything or interrupting anyone. Getting into the habit of looking up at it from time to time is also good for the eyes.
I just put an hourglass on my desk, but out of reach. Sand runs out, get up to flip it. One nice feature is that it makes no noise so if I'm in a meeting and can't get up or attend to it, it isn't disrupting anything or interrupting anyone. Getting into the habit of looking up at it from time to time is also good for the eyes.
I would love something like this that also checked if you were mouth breathing and gave you a reminder to breath through the nose.
I prefer sitting on the floor, it keeps me repositioning regularly.
Except my current laptop, an X230, has the power coming out the rear. It physically presses the plug against with the floor when I have it tilted back partially resting on my shins/ankles while sitting cross-legged. The X61s was way better in this regard with its side mounted power jack. I should probably just upgrade to an AMD X13 already.
Except my current laptop, an X230, has the power coming out the rear. It physically presses the plug against with the floor when I have it tilted back partially resting on my shins/ankles while sitting cross-legged. The X61s was way better in this regard with its side mounted power jack. I should probably just upgrade to an AMD X13 already.
Do you get neck issues, though? Looking down at a laptop isn't a great position for your head. I usually use a laptop stand to keep my eye level with the screen.
Also, having a laptop spend hours directly on your lap may not be good for your reproductive organs. Not sure on this one, though.
Also, having a laptop spend hours directly on your lap may not be good for your reproductive organs. Not sure on this one, though.
No neck issues AFAIK, it's not like I stay in one position for too long.
The configuration I end up using the most is with the laptop sitting flat on the floor, one foot resting planted next to the laptop, chin resting on that leg's knee. That side's arm snakes under that knee toward the keys. The other leg is tucked in like cross-legged, other arm's elbow barely touching that leg's calf, straight to the keys. This setup puts my chest against the thigh of the upright leg with the chin on it. It's a super relaxed configuration, and I'll just alternate which knee is up vs. tucked in periodically.
The configuration I end up using the most is with the laptop sitting flat on the floor, one foot resting planted next to the laptop, chin resting on that leg's knee. That side's arm snakes under that knee toward the keys. The other leg is tucked in like cross-legged, other arm's elbow barely touching that leg's calf, straight to the keys. This setup puts my chest against the thigh of the upright leg with the chin on it. It's a super relaxed configuration, and I'll just alternate which knee is up vs. tucked in periodically.
It's not a problem. Just put your laptop on a coffee table or similar.
This setup works quite well with a wireless keyboard that has a built-in trackpad. The keyboard can move between the table, the floor, your lap, etc.
This setup works quite well with a wireless keyboard that has a built-in trackpad. The keyboard can move between the table, the floor, your lap, etc.
I have a coffee table height desk integrated into my loft space where I'll often use my laptop while seated on the loft's floor.
It's actually more annoying than just having the laptop on the floor and leaning my chest forward against a bent up knee.
But it is a nice option for variety sake, and in my setup it's also the orientation required to enjoy the windowed view outside. In terms of pure ergonomics and computing comfort though, it's not as good as just the floor.
There's also the whole multihead display thing that the low desk provides, it's always a compromise.
It's actually more annoying than just having the laptop on the floor and leaning my chest forward against a bent up knee.
But it is a nice option for variety sake, and in my setup it's also the orientation required to enjoy the windowed view outside. In terms of pure ergonomics and computing comfort though, it's not as good as just the floor.
There's also the whole multihead display thing that the low desk provides, it's always a compromise.
What posture does ‘sitting’ entail? I read somewhere the least pressure on your spine is when your torso/legs are at 135°.
I can confirm this from personal experience.
I spent the entire pandemic, i.e. almost two years, working from home from a chaiselongue that a friend of mine produces [1].
I only ever used it for reading books or watching movies via my projector before that.
It turned out it is perfect for doing computer work. The angle of legs to torso is between 130–140° on this piece of furniture.
I never had any fatigue in my spine, pressure points on my body or pain from tensed muscles anywhere. We're talking up to 12 hours/day on this with two 1h breaks in-between for lunch and dinner.
I always used my laptop but now I am building a setup with a wall-mounted arm to hold a screen and keyboard, below, that I can fold away.
I will post here once I have it set up.
[1] https://www.saschaulber.com/shop/coffy/ – it's currently unavailable because of post-pandemic related supply chain problems
I spent the entire pandemic, i.e. almost two years, working from home from a chaiselongue that a friend of mine produces [1].
I only ever used it for reading books or watching movies via my projector before that.
It turned out it is perfect for doing computer work. The angle of legs to torso is between 130–140° on this piece of furniture.
I never had any fatigue in my spine, pressure points on my body or pain from tensed muscles anywhere. We're talking up to 12 hours/day on this with two 1h breaks in-between for lunch and dinner.
I always used my laptop but now I am building a setup with a wall-mounted arm to hold a screen and keyboard, below, that I can fold away.
I will post here once I have it set up.
[1] https://www.saschaulber.com/shop/coffy/ – it's currently unavailable because of post-pandemic related supply chain problems
so glad research like this is getting traction, some workplaces I was at, there was a stigma for programmers who kept leaving their desks to move around (PDD or Panopticon Driven Development)
When moving around, hold a notepad and pen and look angry/determined as if busy dealing with something that requires going to someone else’s desk.
Standing alone isn't as good as movement, but I do all my meetings that way.
When you're on cam, people can tell by movement that you're not sitting, but so far I'm not aware that's a downside.
For standing with laptop, when I had a proper desk, I'd use an egg crate-style container (with felt protector glued on) atop it, and be able to switch stand/sit within seconds.
Now I use my laptop atop a height-adjustable "lectern" on casters, and wheel it around to wherever I want to be, for light, etc. When not standing, I just carry laptop to a comfortable chair or other place I want to slouch with bad posture. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B079MH6BCL/
When you're on cam, people can tell by movement that you're not sitting, but so far I'm not aware that's a downside.
For standing with laptop, when I had a proper desk, I'd use an egg crate-style container (with felt protector glued on) atop it, and be able to switch stand/sit within seconds.
Now I use my laptop atop a height-adjustable "lectern" on casters, and wheel it around to wherever I want to be, for light, etc. When not standing, I just carry laptop to a comfortable chair or other place I want to slouch with bad posture. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B079MH6BCL/
Made my first standing desk ~1998. Just a used door and 2x4s.
I've always just used barstools. You also need a rubber mat. Especially if the floor is concrete. Or really good shoes or work boots.
I lost about 30lbs. After about 3 months, I was able to stand for any length of time, without discomfort.
The social benefits were great too. Quick meetings, huddles, mood checks. Or my team would pull up barstools and use my desk as a shared workspace as needed. Probably the outcome those agile proponents were shooting for with their "standup meetings" stuff.
Eventually, about 1/2 my team also got standing desks. Then other teams joined the movement.
Adjustable desks seem like overkill to me. And per this article, the novelty quickly wears off. Use the money to buy more, better monitors instead.
I've always just used barstools. You also need a rubber mat. Especially if the floor is concrete. Or really good shoes or work boots.
I lost about 30lbs. After about 3 months, I was able to stand for any length of time, without discomfort.
The social benefits were great too. Quick meetings, huddles, mood checks. Or my team would pull up barstools and use my desk as a shared workspace as needed. Probably the outcome those agile proponents were shooting for with their "standup meetings" stuff.
Eventually, about 1/2 my team also got standing desks. Then other teams joined the movement.
Adjustable desks seem like overkill to me. And per this article, the novelty quickly wears off. Use the money to buy more, better monitors instead.
A physio I went to see about some neck / shoulder issues said that the reason standing desks are good is that they make you move, not that they make you stand per se. He took part in a study where he had to stand completely still for as long as possible and it was very painful after a short time. The value in standing desks is therefore that they make people move - if you stand really still it's not going to help. When using my standing desk I find myself doing things like the lower part of the yoga tree pose, moving in time to music that I'm listening to, and so on. I have a height-adjustable desks and manage about half a day of standing, then sit down in the afternoon. That works really well for me.
A similar setup more or less saved my PhD 15 years ago. I got RSI to the point that it was debilitating: any arm movement that required bending my arm would be painful (shaving, brushing tooth, etc.). I considered stopping my PhD.
What likely saved me was using workrave on my linux workstation: this is a software that forces you to take 30 sec break every 10 mins, and 5 (or 10 ?) mins every hour. It does so by disabling the keyboard (there is an escape hatch ofc). The hourly break, I would stand and walk.
I've been working as a SWE since then. Last few years, I started typing less (moved to management), but I am now > 40 and can still use keyboard w/o much trouble.
It is very easy to try workrave, so I would recommend people taking a look.
What likely saved me was using workrave on my linux workstation: this is a software that forces you to take 30 sec break every 10 mins, and 5 (or 10 ?) mins every hour. It does so by disabling the keyboard (there is an escape hatch ofc). The hourly break, I would stand and walk.
I've been working as a SWE since then. Last few years, I started typing less (moved to management), but I am now > 40 and can still use keyboard w/o much trouble.
It is very easy to try workrave, so I would recommend people taking a look.
I barely stand still for more than a few minutes when using a standing desk. Especially on long calls, I will move about far more than when sitting. Though after reading this, I’m asking myself should I be sitting more?
So standing desks are snake oil of our times.
More a reflection of people having trouble with nonbinary thinking.
Research shows that sitting all day is not good...and many people take that as meaning they should not sit at all. They think their only choices are sitting all day or standing all day.
You can see a similar thing with diets. Someone reads that lowering carbs might have some benefits so they try to change their diet from one that has 60% of its calories from carbs to one that has 10% or less. In reality they are likely to get many of the low carb benefits if they cut from 60% to 30-40%, and 40% is a heck of a lot easier to do than 10% (and so also something one is more likely to stick with long term and so actually have a chance to see benefits).
Look at discussions here on HN about climate change, health and safety regulation, crime prevention, privacy regulation, transgender issues, and no doubt many others and you'll find a lot of people overlooking the possibility that anything other than the most extreme opposite approaches might be viable.
Research shows that sitting all day is not good...and many people take that as meaning they should not sit at all. They think their only choices are sitting all day or standing all day.
You can see a similar thing with diets. Someone reads that lowering carbs might have some benefits so they try to change their diet from one that has 60% of its calories from carbs to one that has 10% or less. In reality they are likely to get many of the low carb benefits if they cut from 60% to 30-40%, and 40% is a heck of a lot easier to do than 10% (and so also something one is more likely to stick with long term and so actually have a chance to see benefits).
Look at discussions here on HN about climate change, health and safety regulation, crime prevention, privacy regulation, transgender issues, and no doubt many others and you'll find a lot of people overlooking the possibility that anything other than the most extreme opposite approaches might be viable.
Thank you for this beautifully lucid comment, tzs. It would be valuable to pin this to the top of every thread.
I've been a full-time developer since about 1993. I switched to 100% standing at work in 2014 sort of on a whim. Before that, I had a significant episode of back pain (enough to leave me unable to function normally) about once a year. Since then, never once.
I'm sure it's complicated and I know correlation is not causality. But my personal belief is that standing is a huge benefit for my back's health as a programmer.
I'm sure it's complicated and I know correlation is not causality. But my personal belief is that standing is a huge benefit for my back's health as a programmer.
They do wonders for me. Any chair I sit in mostly upright for more than a few minutes will start to cause me pain in my lower back. (Herniated L4-L5)
Alternatively, a standing desk where I have tons of movement and am constantly moving my feet and legs, I can stand at all day long. I'm sure it's distracting when I'm on camera, I'm constantly swaying from side to side.
Alternatively, a standing desk where I have tons of movement and am constantly moving my feet and legs, I can stand at all day long. I'm sure it's distracting when I'm on camera, I'm constantly swaying from side to side.
Less the snake oil of our times than a trendy fad from 10 years ago that managed to accumulate a few fanatics, and consequently get a few furniture businesses and research scientists funded who would supply steady press releases to a lazy media that tired of it after a few years.
Not really, you're just trading off one set of problems for another if you work in one position all the time. Given that most modern standing desks are adjustable, it's pretty convenient to have more options.
A dozen years ago when people started using them I thought those were rather odd fellows. Fast forward to the point where after 20+ years of coding lower back pain is quite common unless I work at a standing desk a lot.
But sit-stand desks are not.
I switch to standing when my back and neck hurt, and switch back to sitting when my feet hurt. The standing desk isn't a continuous necessity, but an outlet for occasional periods of back and neck pain.
Has anyone had any luck with a long range headset or Bluetooth extenders?
> then every 20 minutes stand for 8 minutes AND MOVE for 2 minutes.
Ah, I see you don’t have hour long zoom calls.
I attend most zoom calls muted with video off, in part so I can stand and walk around / do some lunges, and in part so I can zone out when the inevitable blowhards get the mike. Honestly this also helps when someone does have an interesting screen share.
But I have been told “video off” is passive aggressive so I don’t know how much longer I can pull this off.
Ah, I see you don’t have hour long zoom calls.
I attend most zoom calls muted with video off, in part so I can stand and walk around / do some lunges, and in part so I can zone out when the inevitable blowhards get the mike. Honestly this also helps when someone does have an interesting screen share.
But I have been told “video off” is passive aggressive so I don’t know how much longer I can pull this off.
> But I have been told “video off” is passive aggressive so I don’t know how much longer I can pull this off.
“Video off” is often necessary, because your laptop runs low on battery, or has run too hot. Sometimes your Wi-Fi might just be bad, forcing you to audio only. A colleague of mine could not turn on video while the Anti virus was running, or the PC would get overloaded (hint: it was running all the time, as mandated by the security guidelines).
You might also not feel well with being watched because of personal reasons. And since it’s personal, it would not be the other person’s business.
If you are at home, video might interfere with other people’s privacy. Just think about the neighbor sunbathing while visible from your window. Don’t want to risk streaming things to work that are not safe for work.
“Video off” is often necessary, because your laptop runs low on battery, or has run too hot. Sometimes your Wi-Fi might just be bad, forcing you to audio only. A colleague of mine could not turn on video while the Anti virus was running, or the PC would get overloaded (hint: it was running all the time, as mandated by the security guidelines).
You might also not feel well with being watched because of personal reasons. And since it’s personal, it would not be the other person’s business.
If you are at home, video might interfere with other people’s privacy. Just think about the neighbor sunbathing while visible from your window. Don’t want to risk streaming things to work that are not safe for work.
> Others have proposed a treadmill workstation or a bicycle workstation or an elliptical workstation or a _hamster wheel_ workstation
Hamster Wheel workstation? This sounds compelling...
Hamster Wheel workstation? This sounds compelling...
What does downward tilting mean?
I assume something like this https://i.imgur.com/wiNgg41_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&...
That is definitely not good wrist posture, FYI. You want your wrist to be straight when typing.
Why is this the case? I would have thought the opposite.
When your wrists are bent there's less room for internal movement.
The same site has some illustrations showing how the think keyboard trays should be oriented, and they have straight wrists: https://ergo.human.cornell.edu/AHTutorials/typingposture.htm.... (I don't like the page that much, since it doesn't show what I think is the best option: a flat keyboard with elbows at 90 and wrists straight, which you can achieve either with a sufficiently low desk, which I do, or a flat keyboard tray under a higher desk.)
The same site has some illustrations showing how the think keyboard trays should be oriented, and they have straight wrists: https://ergo.human.cornell.edu/AHTutorials/typingposture.htm.... (I don't like the page that much, since it doesn't show what I think is the best option: a flat keyboard with elbows at 90 and wrists straight, which you can achieve either with a sufficiently low desk, which I do, or a flat keyboard tray under a higher desk.)
I'm not Cornell of course, do don't take my word for it, but a tented keyboard feels 1000% more comfortable for me than this negative incline setup. Maybe I have to re-work my elbow angle.
Having your hands "tilting upwards" is very unnatural, and using your fingers a lot in that pose can/will quickly lead to wrist pain. Remember, most muscles controlling your fingers are in your lower arm, and the tendons that allow you to close your hand (or type) go straight through where your wrist and palm meet, which is exactly the part that is unusually flexed in that position.
Disclaimer: Not a doctor, just summarizing my experience and what I've read.
Disclaimer: Not a doctor, just summarizing my experience and what I've read.
I think it means the top row is at a lower height than the spacebar, i.e. your arms are angled downward?
Anyone else here prefer sitting on the floor instead? It's a common practice here in Asia. Maybe it's just me but I experience less frequent back pain when sitting on a floor compared to sitting on a chair. One reason I posit is I shift my body more frequently when sitting on the floor. A chair (even an ergonomic one) seem to encourage you to stay in one position for a long time.
I often sit cross legged on my chair. Wears my chair out faster, but I prefer it. I can't find a desk that will go lower enough to sit on the floor. I.also stand at times, but I can't do it long.
WFH I get up and move around a lot more often. In the office I'd just feel like a distraction, glued to the chair with a guilty feeling
Standing isn't a panacea for health issues caused by too much sitting, movement is. I found my overall health and well being improved greatly when I stopped trying to use my standing desk and instead made sure to go for a walk first thing before starting work and paying heed to my Apple watch when it says get up and move around.
I've had standing desk for a while and still no routine. I just alternate pretty regularly for what feels good.
If I'm feeling a little restless, I stand. If I'm a little tired, I sit.
There are some great, thin $3-400 treadmills that are light that can be used for walking as well for those interested.
If I'm feeling a little restless, I stand. If I'm a little tired, I sit.
There are some great, thin $3-400 treadmills that are light that can be used for walking as well for those interested.
[deleted]
Any modern conversation of workplace ergonomics is incomplete without mention of biomechanist Katy Bowman, whose "Move Your DNA"[0] is an indispensable read for anyone maintaining a physical body.
As best I can interpret it, her ultimate conclusion is to hold no position for too long, and introduce novel movement into every activity (rather than, specifically, relegating "healthy" movement to an "exercise" period, while otherwise indulging in "unhealthy" movement for large blocks of time).
Combined with further research elsewhere — such as studies cited in Annie Murphy Paul's "Extended Mind"[1] and those on alleviating ADHD symptoms through movement[2] — it's possible that the ideal workplace is an unrecognizably dynamic one where even the most cerebral workers spring from treadmill to trampoline, to napping cot, to promenade. For just a taste of such dynamicity, here's a fast-forwarded hour of Katy Bowman fidgeting her way through the workday.[3]
Edit: I want to address something specific in the linked article. The claim that "Standing puts greater strain on the circulatory system and on the legs and feet."
I am absolutely certain that this is true, but it doesn't diminish the value of a standing desk. One principle I've absorbed from Bowman's writing is that all rest is strain, which is to say that to rest one limb one must rest on another, straining it. (Who hasn't woken up with a "crick in the neck" or another sign of slept-on strain?) The trick, then, is to rotate strain throughout all the various limbs of the body. Not only have all our limbs have evolved to handle certain loads, they've evolved to expect and dare-I-say crave certain loads in order to keep functioning. So, yes, "standing puts greater strain on the circulatory system and on the legs and feet," but a degree of strain is essentially therapeutic.
0. https://www.nutritiousmovement.com/product/move-your-dna-res...
1. https://anniemurphypaul.com/books/the-extended-mind/
2. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-athletes-way/201...
3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEpEAdCWnw8
As best I can interpret it, her ultimate conclusion is to hold no position for too long, and introduce novel movement into every activity (rather than, specifically, relegating "healthy" movement to an "exercise" period, while otherwise indulging in "unhealthy" movement for large blocks of time).
Combined with further research elsewhere — such as studies cited in Annie Murphy Paul's "Extended Mind"[1] and those on alleviating ADHD symptoms through movement[2] — it's possible that the ideal workplace is an unrecognizably dynamic one where even the most cerebral workers spring from treadmill to trampoline, to napping cot, to promenade. For just a taste of such dynamicity, here's a fast-forwarded hour of Katy Bowman fidgeting her way through the workday.[3]
Edit: I want to address something specific in the linked article. The claim that "Standing puts greater strain on the circulatory system and on the legs and feet."
I am absolutely certain that this is true, but it doesn't diminish the value of a standing desk. One principle I've absorbed from Bowman's writing is that all rest is strain, which is to say that to rest one limb one must rest on another, straining it. (Who hasn't woken up with a "crick in the neck" or another sign of slept-on strain?) The trick, then, is to rotate strain throughout all the various limbs of the body. Not only have all our limbs have evolved to handle certain loads, they've evolved to expect and dare-I-say crave certain loads in order to keep functioning. So, yes, "standing puts greater strain on the circulatory system and on the legs and feet," but a degree of strain is essentially therapeutic.
0. https://www.nutritiousmovement.com/product/move-your-dna-res...
1. https://anniemurphypaul.com/books/the-extended-mind/
2. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-athletes-way/201...
3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEpEAdCWnw8
Been WFH for many years. I typically can't sit for more than 2 hours. I need to get around and stretch, even lie down on the bed so my back feels better.
I wonder how does age affect these recommendations, if at all. The older I am, the more (or less?) should I stand? Does it even matter?
My main takeaway from ergonomics is that it's not so much that there is a purely better way about doing things, but that you need to change things up and do it somewhat frequently. You can have two different parts of your body that want the exact opposite thing.
For example, arm rests can be beneficial in helping someone with carpal tunnel issues, but at the same time, it can be detrimental to the ulnar nerve. Standing and sitting both have their own upsides and downsides. Your actions are probably more akin to rotating the tires on your car. It doesn't stop the wear from happening, but it does so more evenly and you'll get more mileage out of them by doing so.
For example, arm rests can be beneficial in helping someone with carpal tunnel issues, but at the same time, it can be detrimental to the ulnar nerve. Standing and sitting both have their own upsides and downsides. Your actions are probably more akin to rotating the tires on your car. It doesn't stop the wear from happening, but it does so more evenly and you'll get more mileage out of them by doing so.
I guess that settles it - the Pomodoro is the correct work pattern. It's the only one that works in these breaks every half hour.
I can definitely stand a full day but it is exhausting. 60% stand 40% sit seems good to me
I really want to try out a desk cycle, looks dorky AF any down sides to hip wear etc?
I should be dead by now. (I'm not dead yet!)
Typically, both people walk, using good Bluetooth headphones.
I was finding the combination of staring at the screen while coding, and then also during meetings, to be very straining.
Something about having to focus intently on the screen during a 1:1 was particularly tiring. Maybe because it's socially rude to look away while the other person is talking, so you end up really staring at the screen?
Now, instead, during a walking meeting, I exercise and get to look into the distance.
The most surprising thing for me was the ability to have technical conversations like this. I expected we'd really suffer without a whiteboard. Sometimes this is true, but I find we can have a lot of very technical conversations with voice only, and actually it's often easier than with video chat - because with voice only, I can focus more on the technical issues being discussed.
Finally, there are some days where I have a couple of hours walking meetings scattered throughout the day, and this is a lot of extra movement, which has to be good.
I wish there were more employers experimenting with different communication modalities like this; I feel the pandemic for all it's costs, has shown there are some great opportunities for other ways of working which have been underexplored.