Tell HN: Banned site-wide from Reddit for helping a fellow mod fight hate speech
57 comments
You helped creating a bot that punishes users for posting certain words. You used those same words in your message and got a treatment not unlike the one you were helping to automate.
Maybe there is a lesson here somewhere.
Maybe there is a lesson here somewhere.
This is uncharitable; one merely filters isolated comments, the other temporarily* bans humans from an entire social media site.
If you click through to their offending thread, the AutoMod profile they built has a field value of "action: report". As I understand it, that means it does nothing but forward the flagged comment to a human moderator for review. As benign and judicious a use of automation as you can get.
*edit: s/permanently/temporarily/ (sorry!)
If you click through to their offending thread, the AutoMod profile they built has a field value of "action: report". As I understand it, that means it does nothing but forward the flagged comment to a human moderator for review. As benign and judicious a use of automation as you can get.
*edit: s/permanently/temporarily/ (sorry!)
I'm assuming they were showing an example of a regex that will match a list of terms, and the sheer quantity of terms (rather than the initial presence of) weighted its score heavily.
It's a little unfortunate, but 3 days isn't terrible, and it's a good lesson in false positives.
It's a little unfortunate, but 3 days isn't terrible, and it's a good lesson in false positives.
>This is uncharitable: one merely filters isolated comments, the other permanently bans humans from an entire social media site.
For three days, not permanently:
>"You’ve been banned from Reddit for three days"
For three days, not permanently:
>"You’ve been banned from Reddit for three days"
They are both censoring
Looks like OP ran into a version of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scunthorpe_problem
That was a fun rabbit hole! Thank you!
> You helped creating a bot that punishes users for posting certain words
No, I did not. The bot would not punish the user in any way, it would simply hide the comment from other users without even informing the OP.
I'm not sure if you're understanding the situation, the bot would remove comments containing the n-word, r-word and other very insulting slurs
No, I did not. The bot would not punish the user in any way, it would simply hide the comment from other users without even informing the OP.
I'm not sure if you're understanding the situation, the bot would remove comments containing the n-word, r-word and other very insulting slurs
It's either a side effect and you accept it peacefully, or you're in denial and don't want to accept that the automatic moderation on Reddit is awful. Which one do you choose?
This wasn't caused by the automatic moderation of Reddit, the official Reddit Help Center says that "site-wide suspensions can only be applied to accounts by employees of Reddit and are done so after review of the actions and the context in which it took place". Maybe a bot flagged my comment, but a human had to review it.
Totally, because every company policy is true.
Shadowbanning is the word you are not using for some reason.
Punishment without awareness is not going to change behaviour. You've created a system that doesn't address the root cause, so you're creating a game of whack-a-mole for yourself.
Punishment without awareness is not going to change behaviour. You've created a system that doesn't address the root cause, so you're creating a game of whack-a-mole for yourself.
Shadowbanning is the word I am not using because it's the wrong word. As I said, the bot would not punish the user in any way, it would simply hide the comment from other users.
Why do you think people should be free to call other users ni***r or re***d?
Why do you think people should be free to call other users ni***r or re***d?
>No, I did not. The bot would not punish the user in any way, it would simply hide the comment from other users without even informing the OP.
This is shadowbanning, and is a very bad feature of Reddit. If someone's comment or post is removed, that person ought to a) be notified or, at least, b) get the chance to see for himself that it has been removed. Fooling the poster into thinking that all is well is terrible from both UI/UX and general human being perspectives.
>I'm not sure if you're understanding the situation, the bot would remove comments containing the n-word, r-word and other very insulting slurs
Thinking that shadowbanning is a good thing is really retarded.
This is shadowbanning, and is a very bad feature of Reddit. If someone's comment or post is removed, that person ought to a) be notified or, at least, b) get the chance to see for himself that it has been removed. Fooling the poster into thinking that all is well is terrible from both UI/UX and general human being perspectives.
>I'm not sure if you're understanding the situation, the bot would remove comments containing the n-word, r-word and other very insulting slurs
Thinking that shadowbanning is a good thing is really retarded.
Keyword-based moderation has some pretty bad failure modes, yeah. False-positives from context, false-positives from different meaning of the same word...
But what alternatives are here? "Report" button, and human reviewing each and every instance of it? We've all heard horror stories about fb moderators burning out and getting PTSD from this kind of work.
But what alternatives are here? "Report" button, and human reviewing each and every instance of it? We've all heard horror stories about fb moderators burning out and getting PTSD from this kind of work.
I'd say in a site like Reddit where every comment is voted on to change its visibility to begin with, there is no need whatsoever for such a tool.
The amount of overmoderation on the site is ridiculous. You have the site admins, then the subreddit mods, then the moderation by the users themselves, then the automatic stuff. You can still block users and filter subjects.
The amount of overmoderation on the site is ridiculous. You have the site admins, then the subreddit mods, then the moderation by the users themselves, then the automatic stuff. You can still block users and filter subjects.
Maybe even exactly the treatment. It could be the reddit runs automoderator on DMs to flag people. It would be ironic if by fixing an automoderator config and chatting about that in Reddit DMs this code gets used on oneself.
"Don't build systems you wouldn't want to be a victim of."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazen_bull
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazen_bull
Sounds like system is working as designed.
I hafta ask: does this make you think that perhaps "automated moderation" isn't such a good idea? Or is your case just one of the regrettable mistakes that never really happens to real people?
> "automated moderation" isn't such a good idea
Why would people be free to insult users using the offensive words listed in the code I fixed? The list in the post includes words like the n-word and the r-slur
Why would people be free to insult users using the offensive words listed in the code I fixed? The list in the post includes words like the n-word and the r-slur
I would love to see this full list so we can determine how consistent Reddit is with banning hateful language. Because from a non-moderators perspective Reddit has earned it's reputation as an over-moderated cesspit for a reason.
Would you be willing to share that list, rather than a couple of cherry picked examples??
Would you be willing to share that list, rather than a couple of cherry picked examples??
> Would you be willing to share that list?
The link to the list is already in the post itself, you are free to view what words the other mod wanted AutoMod to remove
The link to the list is already in the post itself, you are free to view what words the other mod wanted AutoMod to remove
I'm not sure what list you're referring to. There seems to be no link in your post. What am I missing?
I just checked, the link is still there. I copied it for you: https://new.reddit.com/r/AutoModerator/comments/w5l6sd/comme...
It is very much not there the post only says [removed by reddit]
This whole thread is pure gold.
This whole thread is pure gold.
History may not repeat, but it rhymes
[ Removed by Reddit ]
Because of course.
Because of course.
I am familiar with this sort of thing. My expectation is that the "review" will take longer than the 3 day suspension and that you probably are going to struggle getting the black mark on your account removed.
I suppose the key element to your account's suspension is that you sent keywords for hate speech via direct message. Which is interesting and totally unsurprising.
I suppose the key element to your account's suspension is that you sent keywords for hate speech via direct message. Which is interesting and totally unsurprising.
> you sent keywords for hate speech via direct message
I didn't send it privately, the comment is (well, was) public and I included a link to it in this post
I didn't send it privately, the comment is (well, was) public and I included a link to it in this post
>I didn't send it privately
So you know how to prevent this problem in the future.
So you know how to prevent this problem in the future.
Yes, I do. Sending automod code in PMs is generally not welcomed on reddit, so maybe i could also use a separate site
Ironic, you got punished by a similar system to the one you helped create.
Been where you are. Long story...
1. Your life will be better when you reduce your reddit usage. By a lot.
2. Stop doing free work for Advance Publications, Inc., the owners of reddit.
1. Your life will be better when you reduce your reddit usage. By a lot.
2. Stop doing free work for Advance Publications, Inc., the owners of reddit.
You're part of the problem. Reddit needs less censorship, not more.
If someone is breaking a real-life law, then report them. Otherwise, block them and move on with your life. You're not entitled to not have your feelings hurt.
If someone is breaking a real-life law, then report them. Otherwise, block them and move on with your life. You're not entitled to not have your feelings hurt.
> Reddit needs less censorship, not more.
Why should people be free to insult users using the offensive words listed in the code I fixed? The list is in the post includes words like the n-word and the r-slur, that doesn't have anything to do with censorship and such. Did you even read the full list?
Why should people be free to insult users using the offensive words listed in the code I fixed? The list is in the post includes words like the n-word and the r-slur, that doesn't have anything to do with censorship and such. Did you even read the full list?
HN is pretty free-speech-maximalist, especially on a Saturday morning. The argument you're trying to use isn't really going to work here at this time. You might try changing your rhetoric and see if that help you out more.
If you insulted somebody with slurs, the HN community would flag you pretty quickly regardless of what day it is. I think a lot of people (some of whom are in the comments section here) purposefully pretend that there is no difference between that kind of moderation and things that more reasonably qualify as "censorship". They essentially want an excuse to express their negative emotions at other people, and look to the lofty ideals of "free speech" as a pretense to attack the mechanisms that prevent them from doing that.
I fully agree, redditors also do this when a mod says, well, literally everything.
I don't understand why people are so desperate to give reddit their time and effort. It's rubbish, move on!
You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and cuckoldry than reddit
Imagine the job listing: Full-time (+ overtime) data entry position for faceless corporation that will treat you like human refuse and eventually ban you. Salary $0/hr (non-negotiable).
Apparently people like OP are lining up for this though.
Apparently people like OP are lining up for this though.
This does not belong on HN.
My take is that this is a blessing in disguise for you. Reddit, especially at high doses, is not healthy.
Anything social that tech enabled has become so toxic and damaging to normal f**ing human beings that i kinda wish governments step up and go full autocratic on these sites and services.
This stuff is 21st century digital bubonic plague. Revert life to the 90s and 80s snapshot.
This stuff is 21st century digital bubonic plague. Revert life to the 90s and 80s snapshot.
[deleted]
Sounds like a mistake that will be corrected. Posting it about it elsewhere is just shit stirring.
Is your suspension with or without pay?
Just create a new account...
If you are passionate about building communities then build your own website. And use reddit to get traffic to the website. You have full autonomy. You make money.
[deleted]
The problem with this bot is that it's not user-friendly at all, so even to make it do the most basic action you need to read the documentation. Since most people are to lazy to read it, there's an official subreddit called r/AutoModerator to let people ask and answer questions about it, and I've been fairly active there.
6 days ago, I came across a post from a user that didn't understand why their AutoMod code wasn't working. I asked them to send me the code, and when they did I fixed it by simply adding two square brackets around the keywords. The code they were trying to make would remove comments that contained some common racist words. After I send them the working code, they thanked me for being helpful and added it to their own AutoMod configuration.
6 days after that, I receive a primave message from the official Reddit account saying:
> You’ve been banned from Reddit for three days for violating Reddit’s rule against promoting hate in the following content. > Link to reported content: https://new.reddit.com/r/AutoModerator/comments/w5l6sd/comment/ihhhqi2/ > Reddit is a place for creating community and belonging, not for attacking marginalized or vulnerable groups of people. We don’t tolerate promoting hate based on identity or vulnerability, and any communities or people that encourage or incite violence or hate towards marginalized or vulnerable groups will be banned.
Reddit literally site-wide banned me, an active moderator of 7+ communities, for helping a fellow moderator remove racist comments in their own community. The reason? "Promoting hate based on identity or vulnerability". No good deed goes unpunished, I guess
I have already submitted a ban appeal and I'm currently waiting for a response. Feel free to ask any questions in the comments, since I can't use Reddit I have a lot of time to answer them...