On a road to Prizren with a Free Software Phone(honk.sigxcpu.org)
honk.sigxcpu.org
On a road to Prizren with a Free Software Phone
https://honk.sigxcpu.org/con/On_a_road_to_Prizren_with_a_Free_Software_Phone.html
56 comments
> The problem is that phones are not meant to be hacked upon. They are meant to be used. Sure, it may feel nice to tinker and stuff but everything should just work before you can even consider it a daily driver.
This is no different than the stuff people said about desktop/personal computers in the pre-smartphone days. And yet plenty of us used linux desktops to participate in a web-centric society without significant trouble while preserving our computing freedoms.
What you're referring to as "phones" aren't even phones. For the vast majority of smartphone users making phone calls is rarely if ever done, despite carrying these devices 24x7x365. Hell they're not even capable of making phone calls anywhere near the low-latency high-quality experience of (land-line) phones.
They're computers without keyboards on a wireless network, plain and simple.
And computers are "meant" to be hacked upon.
This is no different than the stuff people said about desktop/personal computers in the pre-smartphone days. And yet plenty of us used linux desktops to participate in a web-centric society without significant trouble while preserving our computing freedoms.
What you're referring to as "phones" aren't even phones. For the vast majority of smartphone users making phone calls is rarely if ever done, despite carrying these devices 24x7x365. Hell they're not even capable of making phone calls anywhere near the low-latency high-quality experience of (land-line) phones.
They're computers without keyboards on a wireless network, plain and simple.
And computers are "meant" to be hacked upon.
> It took Linux desktop some 20 years to reach the point where you could just use it i.e., no tinkering needed, everything works by default, you install the software you need and that's it.
Only took about 5 years for me. And that's probably only because I didn't know about it until '96.
Only took about 5 years for me. And that's probably only because I didn't know about it until '96.
I have not used Librem, but I own a Pinephone. Anecdotally, while the initial impression of community edition was not great ( I personally blame ubuntu as default OS ), I eventually tried PostmarketOS ( on HN recommendation actually ) and I am now going through side by side testing with my work phone as a backup.
For basic stuff ( phone, text, light net use ) it works. It is not polished. It is very much underpowered.. but there is something to be said for having that level of control over a machine. I think I agree with you; it will take take time the same way it did with desktop linux. Still, I am more optimistic now.. we are starting to have real options outside of the duopoly forced down humanity's throats.
And.. even if you are not ready to jump onto new hardware, you can install Kali linux in Android now[1].
[1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxOGyuGq0Ts
For basic stuff ( phone, text, light net use ) it works. It is not polished. It is very much underpowered.. but there is something to be said for having that level of control over a machine. I think I agree with you; it will take take time the same way it did with desktop linux. Still, I am more optimistic now.. we are starting to have real options outside of the duopoly forced down humanity's throats.
And.. even if you are not ready to jump onto new hardware, you can install Kali linux in Android now[1].
[1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxOGyuGq0Ts
> you can install Kali linux in Android now
This solves some problems (running Linux UI and apps) but leaves some very important others unaddressed (security). The point isn't just installing Linux but also removing from devices every piece of non free -as in not open, therefore non auditable and by extension not trustworthy- piece of firmware/OS/software. The hardest part is achieving that goal and many initiatives are struggling to get as close as possible to that point. As a Linux guy, I would love being able to turn a spyware ridden phone into a 100% open Linux platform, but if someone said like that it can be done, but they're using *BSD, or Haiku, or whatewer 100% open OS out there, that would be great anyway.
This solves some problems (running Linux UI and apps) but leaves some very important others unaddressed (security). The point isn't just installing Linux but also removing from devices every piece of non free -as in not open, therefore non auditable and by extension not trustworthy- piece of firmware/OS/software. The hardest part is achieving that goal and many initiatives are struggling to get as close as possible to that point. As a Linux guy, I would love being able to turn a spyware ridden phone into a 100% open Linux platform, but if someone said like that it can be done, but they're using *BSD, or Haiku, or whatewer 100% open OS out there, that would be great anyway.
I don't disagree, but it is important to have options to match various use cases. Even few years ago, it would not be feasible just in terms CPU power to run another OS on top of Android.
So while it does not address some issues ( and one could argue create some new ones ), it is overall a positive development. We want more people looking at it from different angles and saying something along the lines of:
"God damn it. The current status quo is not working for me. Let me change it."
I applaud such effort in that space. Fake Android/Apple choice aggravates me.
So while it does not address some issues ( and one could argue create some new ones ), it is overall a positive development. We want more people looking at it from different angles and saying something along the lines of:
"God damn it. The current status quo is not working for me. Let me change it."
I applaud such effort in that space. Fake Android/Apple choice aggravates me.
Linux has worked much better out of the box than Windows for a number of applications since at least a 2006.
Don't confuse Windows, - slipstreamed and supported by a competent IT department - with what a user gets out of the box from an OEM.
Please note:
I have supported users on Windows from 1995 to somewhere after 2012 (a little bit blurry).
Just saying "you don't know what you are talking about" won't cut it.
Don't confuse Windows, - slipstreamed and supported by a competent IT department - with what a user gets out of the box from an OEM.
Please note:
I have supported users on Windows from 1995 to somewhere after 2012 (a little bit blurry).
Just saying "you don't know what you are talking about" won't cut it.
You can't know what you are talking about?
Your experience supporting Windows users isn't all encompassing, you defined no criteria whatsoever for "better out of the box", you didn't define any of the applications... the list goes on.
Take ease of install. I assure you in 2006 Linux was not as easy to install as it is today when it comes to things like having working power management. Even something as basic as having a computer successfully go to sleep and come back with working wifi was often a challenge.
Or take gaming. Today Wine/Proton have come leaps and bounds and Linux still ends up excluded from some of the largest gaming titles out there.
Or making a simple word document that renders the same way on Window user's PCs as it does on yours. I was one of those people trying to force OpenOffice/LibreOffice and there was nothing more fun than chasing down weird issues when a Windows user using one of the most popular word editors on earth couldn't properly render your document...
The reality is Windows won on desktop, and a very small minority of people still want to dump on Windows. For all its warts, it's clearly made the tradeoffs that benefit the largest number of desktop users.
Your experience supporting Windows users isn't all encompassing, you defined no criteria whatsoever for "better out of the box", you didn't define any of the applications... the list goes on.
Take ease of install. I assure you in 2006 Linux was not as easy to install as it is today when it comes to things like having working power management. Even something as basic as having a computer successfully go to sleep and come back with working wifi was often a challenge.
Or take gaming. Today Wine/Proton have come leaps and bounds and Linux still ends up excluded from some of the largest gaming titles out there.
Or making a simple word document that renders the same way on Window user's PCs as it does on yours. I was one of those people trying to force OpenOffice/LibreOffice and there was nothing more fun than chasing down weird issues when a Windows user using one of the most popular word editors on earth couldn't properly render your document...
The reality is Windows won on desktop, and a very small minority of people still want to dump on Windows. For all its warts, it's clearly made the tradeoffs that benefit the largest number of desktop users.
In 2007 or 2008 I remember I spent 4 hours installing one supposedly preconfigured Windows OEM machine.
Meanwhile Linux had live installers.
Driver hunting was still part of a normal Windows installation, meanwhile for many standard configurations Ubuntu worked out of the box or with trivial (apt-getable) additions.
Also I tried to carefully qualify it. There were absolutely cases were Windows would be easier.
Meanwhile Linux had live installers.
Driver hunting was still part of a normal Windows installation, meanwhile for many standard configurations Ubuntu worked out of the box or with trivial (apt-getable) additions.
Also I tried to carefully qualify it. There were absolutely cases were Windows would be easier.
>Today Wine/Proton have come leaps and bounds and Linux still ends up excluded from some of the largest gaming titles out there.
It is due to anti-cheat. Whose fault is that? The developers refuse to support linux even if we meet them halfway.
>The reality is Windows won on desktop, and a very small minority of people still want to dump on Windows. For all its warts, it's clearly made the tradeoffs that benefit the largest number of desktop users.
Windows "won" because it was there first and it's stayed there due to its anti-competitive behavior (see halloween documents, windows refund day, etc.). You would be hard-pressed to buy a laptop or something without paying for microsoft's license- they have deals with all the manufacturers to stop competition before it even happens.
Microsoft is sitting on top of a massive cash cow. They will continue to plunder their user-base with ads and spyware, and they will continue neglect their responsibilities as a custodian to the extent that it improves their numbers in some board-room meeting. The "value-offering" of windows will get so bad that users might switch to linux/wine or reactOS. They might not switch now, but here's the way I see it: linux will only improve and windows will only get worse. It's not over until the fat lady sings.
It is due to anti-cheat. Whose fault is that? The developers refuse to support linux even if we meet them halfway.
>The reality is Windows won on desktop, and a very small minority of people still want to dump on Windows. For all its warts, it's clearly made the tradeoffs that benefit the largest number of desktop users.
Windows "won" because it was there first and it's stayed there due to its anti-competitive behavior (see halloween documents, windows refund day, etc.). You would be hard-pressed to buy a laptop or something without paying for microsoft's license- they have deals with all the manufacturers to stop competition before it even happens.
Microsoft is sitting on top of a massive cash cow. They will continue to plunder their user-base with ads and spyware, and they will continue neglect their responsibilities as a custodian to the extent that it improves their numbers in some board-room meeting. The "value-offering" of windows will get so bad that users might switch to linux/wine or reactOS. They might not switch now, but here's the way I see it: linux will only improve and windows will only get worse. It's not over until the fat lady sings.
> It is due to anti-cheat. Whose fault is that? The developers refuse to support linux even if we meet them halfway.
Windows meets them all the way. Not having to deal with LSB, Glibc, different distros, etc.
> Windows "won" because it was there first and it's stayed there due to its anti-competitive behavior
Why does every pro-Linux statement devolve into an anti-Windows statement the moment it meets resistance.
If Linux is truly "better" for whatever useful meaning of that word there is, I cannot for the life of me understand why the invariant that Linux cannot actually be promoted on the desktop without tearing down Windows to do so.
Windows meets them all the way. Not having to deal with LSB, Glibc, different distros, etc.
> Windows "won" because it was there first and it's stayed there due to its anti-competitive behavior
Why does every pro-Linux statement devolve into an anti-Windows statement the moment it meets resistance.
If Linux is truly "better" for whatever useful meaning of that word there is, I cannot for the life of me understand why the invariant that Linux cannot actually be promoted on the desktop without tearing down Windows to do so.
>Windows meets them all the way. Not having to deal with LSB, Glibc, different distros, etc.
Windows doesn't do shit besides stand there.
>Why does every pro-Linux statement devolve into an anti-Windows statement the moment it meets resistance.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Imagine I build a robot that does your job faster than you, better than you, more reliably than you, and I distribute it for free. One small issue though: it only speaks French. Are you really going to suggest that in a sane market, you would stand a chance against this robot?
You have to conclude that a market in which windows defeats linux is irrational. If windows did not wield its' reverse compatibility and did not have anti-competitive dealings with manufacturers, it would just be another corpse in the pile of defeated unixes (solaris, etc.).
Microsoft has a unique market position due to its business relationships. That's no attribute of the windows operating system, and it is an advantage that can slowly erode over time. My problem is that you're asserting that there's some characteristic of the windows operating system that is superior. Reverse-compatibility is a anti-feature, It's just not obvious in the short-term.
Windows doesn't do shit besides stand there.
>Why does every pro-Linux statement devolve into an anti-Windows statement the moment it meets resistance.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Imagine I build a robot that does your job faster than you, better than you, more reliably than you, and I distribute it for free. One small issue though: it only speaks French. Are you really going to suggest that in a sane market, you would stand a chance against this robot?
You have to conclude that a market in which windows defeats linux is irrational. If windows did not wield its' reverse compatibility and did not have anti-competitive dealings with manufacturers, it would just be another corpse in the pile of defeated unixes (solaris, etc.).
Microsoft has a unique market position due to its business relationships. That's no attribute of the windows operating system, and it is an advantage that can slowly erode over time. My problem is that you're asserting that there's some characteristic of the windows operating system that is superior. Reverse-compatibility is a anti-feature, It's just not obvious in the short-term.
> Are you really going to suggest that in a sane market, you would stand a chance against this robot?
Yes! Because if no one speaks French, and it's not so much better that people are suddenly willing to learn French, then no one will want to use it!
And Linux is not some vision of perfection either, there are still warts around the quality and polish of userspace applications compared to Windows, so meeting the incredibly high bar of "throw out your entire method of thinking for this" is nearly impossible.
You've just perfectly summed up why "the year of the Linux Desktop" has been coming up for nearly 2 decades now.
Yes! Because if no one speaks French, and it's not so much better that people are suddenly willing to learn French, then no one will want to use it!
And Linux is not some vision of perfection either, there are still warts around the quality and polish of userspace applications compared to Windows, so meeting the incredibly high bar of "throw out your entire method of thinking for this" is nearly impossible.
You've just perfectly summed up why "the year of the Linux Desktop" has been coming up for nearly 2 decades now.
There's never a been a year of the anything desktop. That's not a thing that gets proclaimed by anyone at any time. Who would have to say it for you to suddenly accept that Linux desktops are awesome and have been for 20 years. Would you accept it if Steve Balmer said it? Gates? You wouldn't even then because this is a sports team to you.
You're clearly taking this too personally to have a productive conversation so I'll leave it where it was.
Ironic you bring up sports teams though...
Ironic you bring up sports teams though...
No need to be dramatic. If you think of an answer to my query, let us know. Until then I'll consider it resolved.
My experience with installing Windows in 2006 was being presented with a 1-800 number I had to call, so that I could read off a massive hex string and type in an endless series of call-and-response codes. That was AFTER having to dig out a floppy drive -- in 2006 -- because Microsoft couldn't be bothered to update their installation media with SATA drivers.
Once that was done I was faced with a nearly-driverless machine, followed by several hours of shuttling .msi files in via USB drive (including a four hundred megabyte printer driver?!), capped off with a four- to six-hour Windows Update marathon, during which my computer rebooted at random.
Installing Windows was what made me investigate Linux in the first place. Since then I have found peace with Apple products, but I seriously think you're looking at Windows of old with some rose-tinted glasses.
Once that was done I was faced with a nearly-driverless machine, followed by several hours of shuttling .msi files in via USB drive (including a four hundred megabyte printer driver?!), capped off with a four- to six-hour Windows Update marathon, during which my computer rebooted at random.
Installing Windows was what made me investigate Linux in the first place. Since then I have found peace with Apple products, but I seriously think you're looking at Windows of old with some rose-tinted glasses.
We still don't have a free software feature phone that has the same polish as bottom of the barrel flip phones from 20 years ago.
I have a PinePhone and I'm seriously asking myself how much time it will take to get an experience remotely comparable with even the first iPhone, both in terms of ease of use and features.
I believe people are rushing down this road with no real vision of what such a device needs to feel useable. I am planning to start developing something for the PinePhone in foreseeable the future, but just the difficulty in retrieving resources about understanding how the Linux kernel is patched to run on that ARM board, the necessary drivers and how all the various sensors and interfaces communicate really lets me down
It all mostly uses standard Linux interfaces. IIO for most sensors, V4L2 for camera, AT interface for modem, ALSA for codec audio controls, I2C to talk with accessories, USB configfs to configure USB gadgets,...
I struggle to recall something that's purely Pinephone specific from the userspace perspective. I tried almost all the lowest level Linux HW interfaces usable on Pinephone.
I struggle to recall something that's purely Pinephone specific from the userspace perspective. I tried almost all the lowest level Linux HW interfaces usable on Pinephone.
>>> just the difficulty in retrieving resources about understanding how the Linux kernel is patched to run on that ARM board, the necessary drivers and how all the various sensors and interfaces communicate really lets me down
maybe you could give it a try and document your trip ? As someone who'd love to help the cause, but who doesn't have much time, a good documentation would help.
maybe you could give it a try and document your trip ? As someone who'd love to help the cause, but who doesn't have much time, a good documentation would help.
If only people could get the phone they pre-ordered. The /r/purism subreddit is so much filled with horror stories and dishonest marketing practices by the company that I decided against ordering one.
I received my Librem 5. I wrote a short review[0] when I first got it.
Since then it has developed a fault whereby the phone crashes immediately as soon as I switch the wifi kill-switch on. Just instant black screen, nothing happening. Sometimes I have to take the battery out to get it to boot back up. I just don't use wifi. Apart from that it still works great.
[0] https://incoherency.co.uk/blog/stories/librem5-first-impress...
Since then it has developed a fault whereby the phone crashes immediately as soon as I switch the wifi kill-switch on. Just instant black screen, nothing happening. Sometimes I have to take the battery out to get it to boot back up. I just don't use wifi. Apart from that it still works great.
[0] https://incoherency.co.uk/blog/stories/librem5-first-impress...
> Since then it has developed a fault whereby the phone crashes immediately as soon as I switch the wifi kill-switch on. Just instant black screen, nothing happening.
Heh, I have never seen or heard of anyone with that issue? You may want to contact their support and ask about it. They are pretty good about helping out with those things.
Heh, I have never seen or heard of anyone with that issue? You may want to contact their support and ask about it. They are pretty good about helping out with those things.
But other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?
I was a super early pre-order and then waited years for SOMETHING. I eventually asked for a refund which they said they'd honor. I've now been in the refund "queue" for over a year or two. I've lost count of the exact number of years, promises and emails at this point.
I understand growing pains, but purism is neither a transparent nor a trustworthy company. Buy a PinePhone Pro and call it a day. It's still not ready for prime time as a daily driver, IMO, but the company is a breath of fresh air in comparison.
I understand growing pains, but purism is neither a transparent nor a trustworthy company. Buy a PinePhone Pro and call it a day. It's still not ready for prime time as a daily driver, IMO, but the company is a breath of fresh air in comparison.
When I asked for a refund I was told that they had changed their mind and they were no longer honoring their original policies. I have the phone now and it's pretty much a paperweight. Someday I might want to play around with it but at the moment it's more of a toy and less of a phone.
This is a bummer. Did you order the USA model or the Chinese model?
The US model didn't exist even as a concept at the time I pre-ordered. I ordered before the first lot, but picked Evergreen because I wanted it to work and I didn't mind funding and waiting, but this is crazy.
I realize there's a valid difference between place of origin, but for me sitting here empty handed, the US model just seemed like a way to upcharge for a product that hardly existed in any form.
Chinese? American? Whatever, for me vapor is vapor no matter where it's supposed to be coming from "eventually".
I realize there's a valid difference between place of origin, but for me sitting here empty handed, the US model just seemed like a way to upcharge for a product that hardly existed in any form.
Chinese? American? Whatever, for me vapor is vapor no matter where it's supposed to be coming from "eventually".
I see much of this on the subreddit as well. Though maybe I can be a point of anecdata to the opposite side. I ordered(Librem 5 USA) in December 21, got my phone in July 22. Had some small issues, emailed customer support, got helpful responses. The phone calls and texts fine. There are good apps, a good community, etc. I think there is a loud minority of people that didn't quite understand what they were buying into. A small company and a first product.. you're really speculating by being early. This is not going to be remotely close to the same experience as buying a device with +20y of development from a top 5 most traded public companies in the U.S.. I bought the phone with the understanding, maybe I get the phone in 2022, maybe I don't. Maybe I get the phone and it can't make calls/texts because of a software issue and I'll have to wait for a fix or aid in development.. I would recommend the phone to others who share similar expectations. Though I would recommend the USA version as they seem to be available. It seems those still waiting for phones might be stuck waiting for the chinese model.(chip shortage related? Idk)
Anybody reading this, Prizren is a very beautiful historical town/city. It has some really nice old architecture, plus a castle, and there is plenty to explore around the area. It has a lot of old school Albanian gold and silver shops, that do some really interesting/old style jewelry, as back in the Ottoman era used to be an important stop for merchants.
How much harder is it to own one of these phones vs an iPhone? I loved hacking on my smartphone when I was in high school, but now I'd like something that just works (or at least requires only a small amount of effort).
I'd really like a barebones phone that has only the bare essentials, ideally not even a web browser.
I'd really like a barebones phone that has only the bare essentials, ideally not even a web browser.
People used to say they wanted a phone that just did the basics - calling, SMS. The thing is... are those the basics now? I almost never make phone calls and I think I've literally never sent an SMS on my current phone. The basics now are the apps - Signal, WhatsApp, Twitter and Instagram DMs, etc. I think that's typical for most people?
They're probably not defined as basics based on how frequently people use them compared to apps, but, phone and SMS are still the lowest common denominator.
I've been dealing with the police recently after a minor burglary. That involved both making and receiving phone calls.
My dentist has an automated system that texts to confirm appointments.
Despite its downsides, SMS-based 2FA is ubiquitous and you don't always have ability to opt into something more secure.
I'd expect most people elect to use apps for communication when they've got an option, but there are tons of scenarios in modern life where you really don't have the option.
I've been dealing with the police recently after a minor burglary. That involved both making and receiving phone calls.
My dentist has an automated system that texts to confirm appointments.
Despite its downsides, SMS-based 2FA is ubiquitous and you don't always have ability to opt into something more secure.
I'd expect most people elect to use apps for communication when they've got an option, but there are tons of scenarios in modern life where you really don't have the option.
I think it could be a generational thing.
My nephew who's 26, runs a pool company. He said he barely makes any phone calls and most of his appointments and interactions with clients and friends are all mainly done through texting. The only social media he uses is Instagram.
My daughter is 15. She still uses the phone extensively for conferencing her friends when playing online games. She's uses the iphone Facetime extensively as well if she's not playing online games. Most of her friends do little texting and actually do call each other much more frequently and for much longer periods of time. Not unusual for her to be on the phone with one of her online buddies living in Florida for a few hours. Their conversations frequently revolve around videos they share or shows they're watching. They all have Apple devices and I've been surprised at the multiple different ways they're utilizing the phone feature on their devices in ways I never imagined.
Now me? I'm in my early 40's, my parents are their 70's and they're using the texting feature a lot more nowadays. My Mom and Dad both still prefer to use the phone, but my Dad's hearing is starting to become an issue, so texting allows him to have really good conversations without fear of losing out on anything. Myself, I still use the phone quite a bit, texting seems to to be tapering off in favor of email and phone calls with my friends and freelance clients which I never thought would happen.
I really thought the same thing, that the phone part of your device was quickly becoming obsolete. I've been surprised with my daughter's generation who are finding new ways to utilize the feature and combine with the other things her and friends love most - online gaming, sharing videos, sharing and discussing their favorite topics of conversation.
My nephew who's 26, runs a pool company. He said he barely makes any phone calls and most of his appointments and interactions with clients and friends are all mainly done through texting. The only social media he uses is Instagram.
My daughter is 15. She still uses the phone extensively for conferencing her friends when playing online games. She's uses the iphone Facetime extensively as well if she's not playing online games. Most of her friends do little texting and actually do call each other much more frequently and for much longer periods of time. Not unusual for her to be on the phone with one of her online buddies living in Florida for a few hours. Their conversations frequently revolve around videos they share or shows they're watching. They all have Apple devices and I've been surprised at the multiple different ways they're utilizing the phone feature on their devices in ways I never imagined.
Now me? I'm in my early 40's, my parents are their 70's and they're using the texting feature a lot more nowadays. My Mom and Dad both still prefer to use the phone, but my Dad's hearing is starting to become an issue, so texting allows him to have really good conversations without fear of losing out on anything. Myself, I still use the phone quite a bit, texting seems to to be tapering off in favor of email and phone calls with my friends and freelance clients which I never thought would happen.
I really thought the same thing, that the phone part of your device was quickly becoming obsolete. I've been surprised with my daughter's generation who are finding new ways to utilize the feature and combine with the other things her and friends love most - online gaming, sharing videos, sharing and discussing their favorite topics of conversation.
IMO Facetime is closer to being an app feature than being a phone feature - it isn't standardized, interoperable, or omnipresent the way phone calls and SMS are
It is interoperable. As of iOS 15 (released last year) non-Apple products like Android phones can join FaceTime calls. I'm not sure how widely used that part is.
But, anyway, I've heard FaceTime be a synonym for video calling, so I think it's also pretty present, depending on your circle.
But, anyway, I've heard FaceTime be a synonym for video calling, so I think it's also pretty present, depending on your circle.
I (and I suspect most others) must have SMS for two-factor auth. There are many sites that require it, or that send texts as their only login mechanism. I personally use my phone pretty often. Making doctors appointments, coordinating with friends while on trips, or calling just to talk.
I recognize that Signals, WhatsApp, etc. are what most people want, but I personally want to unplug from social media, so not having those apps is fine for me.
I recognize that Signals, WhatsApp, etc. are what most people want, but I personally want to unplug from social media, so not having those apps is fine for me.
It seems that different people have vastly different use cases for phones.
I don't use any of those apps, and if I did, I'd prefer a larger screen and physical keyboard. My phone is for calling, SMS, navigation, and notifying me of new emails (never for actually replying though!).
I don't use any of those apps, and if I did, I'd prefer a larger screen and physical keyboard. My phone is for calling, SMS, navigation, and notifying me of new emails (never for actually replying though!).
it really depends on how you use it. i had non-android phones before. (even openmoko). calling, sms, taking notes. those phones had less apps, but they worked. so the question of "how much harder" is really a question of "what apps to you need". today i am on android (/e/) because there are a few android apps that are absolutely essential for me now. but if i didn't need those specific apps, then any other system would be just fine.
I'm building a barebones phone like you describe, and am looking for feedback from people. Mind if I get in contact?
Sure thing! My email is in my profile.
if free software is not your motivator, consider the light phone 2. it's a b&w e-ink phone that does 4g LTE calls/sms/hotspot, with apps for gps navigation and podcasts.
The Punkt also has Signal: https://www.punkt.ch/en/products/mp02-4g-mobile-phone/
I think these are neat, but have an iPhone 13 Mini because it’s hard to beat Apple’s quality and privacy work.
I think these are neat, but have an iPhone 13 Mini because it’s hard to beat Apple’s quality and privacy work.
I've seen those and have been tempted. I think I'd need two phones to pull that off. There are some things that require an iOS or Android compatible phone, e.g. most smart home stuff cannot be setup without a smartphone.
in the states, verizon has a number share program (two sim cards, one phone number). they consider the light phone a "wearable" and the monthly rate is similar to stand-alone data hotspots -- far cheaper than adding a "real" second phone to the plan.
Phone is a Librem 5 in case that was what you wanted to know.
Free software phones are very important.
But judging by this thread, we need more people with guts. So many doubters in here who aren't being useful in any way :)
So - I think I'm going to run NixOS Mobile on a 2nd device (alongside my iPhone) in the next year-ish and provide some guts and elbow grease (PRs incoming!)
Prepare to wish you did the hard thing for the fun of it :D
But judging by this thread, we need more people with guts. So many doubters in here who aren't being useful in any way :)
So - I think I'm going to run NixOS Mobile on a 2nd device (alongside my iPhone) in the next year-ish and provide some guts and elbow grease (PRs incoming!)
Prepare to wish you did the hard thing for the fun of it :D
Very nice, looks like these open phones are moving forward. Would love to have a new Nokia N900.
This comment section has a bunch of people whining that Free Software phones developed by mostly *unpaid volunteers* are not good enough.
Also, nobody gifted me a pony today.
Also, nobody gifted me a pony today.
This is not the reality on the ground here, though I agree with you with FOSS whining in general.
Purism marketed their phone as the eventual iPhone/Android killer. "Get the hardware, and the software will ripen with every update in your hand", was their claim. Purism created the hardware very slowly and worked on the software in-house themselves in a very "cathedral-esque" paradigm. Without hardware, you don't have passionate *unpaid volunteers* so stuff was slow and incomplete. Developers were also just pleading for something to hack on. Yes, they did some good things that are upstreamed in the kernel and elsewhere, credit where it's due, but it's beyond merciful to call this anything but a botched product.
Pine64 put their phone out relatively quickly for the devs. A weak, early and raw device with big warnings letting people know that this was a DEV DEVICE and it was not for general consumption. Pine created the hardware themselves, but not the software and just cultivated an ecosystem where they'd support and work with third-party software distributions. They even did cycle runs where they'd ship different logos and operating system on the device to support the community. This is the way.
I think people have good reason to call Purism out for their $1200-2000 Librem phones that have overheating issues and alpha-grade software, if they get delivered at all. There's no free pony here sure, but my $600 vapor pony wasn't free either.
Purism marketed their phone as the eventual iPhone/Android killer. "Get the hardware, and the software will ripen with every update in your hand", was their claim. Purism created the hardware very slowly and worked on the software in-house themselves in a very "cathedral-esque" paradigm. Without hardware, you don't have passionate *unpaid volunteers* so stuff was slow and incomplete. Developers were also just pleading for something to hack on. Yes, they did some good things that are upstreamed in the kernel and elsewhere, credit where it's due, but it's beyond merciful to call this anything but a botched product.
Pine64 put their phone out relatively quickly for the devs. A weak, early and raw device with big warnings letting people know that this was a DEV DEVICE and it was not for general consumption. Pine created the hardware themselves, but not the software and just cultivated an ecosystem where they'd support and work with third-party software distributions. They even did cycle runs where they'd ship different logos and operating system on the device to support the community. This is the way.
I think people have good reason to call Purism out for their $1200-2000 Librem phones that have overheating issues and alpha-grade software, if they get delivered at all. There's no free pony here sure, but my $600 vapor pony wasn't free either.
> people have good reason to call Purism out for their $1200-2000 Librem phones
I fully agree. Yet I was referring exclusively to the complains around the whole FOSS ecosystem.
I fully agree. Yet I was referring exclusively to the complains around the whole FOSS ecosystem.
Ah okay, gotcha. Sorry for the rant then :+1:
We don't have 20 years to wait when it comes to free software phones. The problem is that phones are not meant to be hacked upon. They are meant to be used. Sure, it may feel nice to tinker and stuff but everything should just work before you can even consider it a daily driver.
I haven't personally used Librem or Pinephone so I don't know how far along they are in terms of user experience (not developer experience).