Ask HN: How to master verbal communication?
87 comments
As someone who taught English as a foreign language for many years, I'd say it really depends on where your specific difficulties lie.
If you're looking to improve your verbal fluency, I would absolutely recommend lots and lots of television. Find a show you love, watch it lots, and try to copy what the characters say -- in rhythm and intonation. Even better if you can find a show where there's a character you identify with, an actor who is similar to you in "type". Get closed-captioning transcripts of episodes and try to say each line before and then compare with how it's actually said. I would say this is absolutely #1.
I see other recommendations here for Toastmasters and for improv comedy. Toastmasters is specifically about public speaking -- if that's your goal then absolutely, but if you're looking to improve personal conversation I'm not sure it will help much. And while improv comedy is a blast (I've done lots myself), I don't think it's going to help much with linguistic fluency. There's a ton of focus on physicality and teamwork, but it will go much better if you're already very comfortable with your speaking.
All of the best students I ever had in English classes would basically watch the TV show "Friends" for like 2-3 hours a day, I'm not even joking. It's surprising how well the TV route works. And after that it's really about practice -- figure out whatever situations you can have a lot of conversation with native speakers in, if there's some kind of local club/activity you can join.
If you're looking to improve your verbal fluency, I would absolutely recommend lots and lots of television. Find a show you love, watch it lots, and try to copy what the characters say -- in rhythm and intonation. Even better if you can find a show where there's a character you identify with, an actor who is similar to you in "type". Get closed-captioning transcripts of episodes and try to say each line before and then compare with how it's actually said. I would say this is absolutely #1.
I see other recommendations here for Toastmasters and for improv comedy. Toastmasters is specifically about public speaking -- if that's your goal then absolutely, but if you're looking to improve personal conversation I'm not sure it will help much. And while improv comedy is a blast (I've done lots myself), I don't think it's going to help much with linguistic fluency. There's a ton of focus on physicality and teamwork, but it will go much better if you're already very comfortable with your speaking.
All of the best students I ever had in English classes would basically watch the TV show "Friends" for like 2-3 hours a day, I'm not even joking. It's surprising how well the TV route works. And after that it's really about practice -- figure out whatever situations you can have a lot of conversation with native speakers in, if there's some kind of local club/activity you can join.
We need to group-build a mapping of (language -> most appropriate mainstream TV show) because every english as a second-language person I've met and discussed learning English with has told me this about Friends. But what should I watch to further my learning of German|French|Latin|Ancient Greek|...?
I feel like Kukhnya (The Kitchen) (fiction comedy) is pretty good for Russian, but I'm the one learning Russian, so how would I know, probably.
This begs the question: What’s the Central American Spanish equivalent of Friends for Americans who want to learn Spanish?
[deleted]
El Chavo del Ocho.
I think it's popular in all of Latin America.
I think it's popular in all of Latin America.
I don't know whether it's a better suggestion, but telenovelas (and there are plenty of those) will likely help one learn Spanish better, or better Spanish, while using more realistic intonations and voices, than El Chavo del Ocho with its adult actors making child-like voices and using many expressions you won't find in real-life conversations.
If there’s a particular show that you love, enjoy watching reruns of, and you know almost every line, then switch the language to Spanish!
Otherwise, telenovelas are good.
Otherwise, telenovelas are good.
I'm an amateur student of language acquisition. I can only add to this, because I think you're spot on. I knew a few people who landed here on their own and within a few years had no appreciable accent. ALL of them did this by living away from people who spoke their own language. Just too easy to slip into it when you've had a long day cleaning houses or working in an Amazon warehouse.
EDIT: Hilarious typos in a post about language acquisition
EDIT: Hilarious typos in a post about language acquisition
> Even better if you can find a show where there's a character you identify with, an actor who is similar to you in "type".
The problem is I'm a smart-ass and people don't like me speaking like Archer.
But seriously, I got way more comfortable understanding spoken English by watching seasons of Supernatural. I would only add that I found subtitles very helpful because understanding an accent you're not used to is very hard without a little help. An alternative being watching something you already watched in your own language so you know what's going on and can fill the holes.
The problem is I'm a smart-ass and people don't like me speaking like Archer.
But seriously, I got way more comfortable understanding spoken English by watching seasons of Supernatural. I would only add that I found subtitles very helpful because understanding an accent you're not used to is very hard without a little help. An alternative being watching something you already watched in your own language so you know what's going on and can fill the holes.
If you want a fast map of english diction, consume all the standup comedy and prize winning literary fiction you can find. Also, read P.G. Wodehouse, and then watch it performed. Churchills speeches are good to read too. Consider reading or watching Richard Feynman's lectures to get a sense of how a great mind operates.
To be concise and eloquent is also the downstream effect of values that form a personality. It's not something you can affect by imitating, it is the effect of cummulative competence and practice over time. You need the intellectual confidence to ask questions and interrogate your surroundings with benevolent and sincere interest. That confidence comes from finding a kernel of moral clarity that enables you to relate to the world by assuming its approval, to be a protagonist in it, and not a guest or subject who must be meek or deferential to it. Value pith, grit, vision, and humility, but postpone being too humble until you are sure you are great.
"Brevity is the soul of wit," isn't just about humour, it's about intelligence. The essence of english comedy is our surprisingly many synonyms that have wry and ironic collisions in their meanings. Absorbing the comedy practices a sense of humor, which becomes a new sense for interpreting your surroundings. Teasing out the same sense of paradox using humour leads you to the crux of literally every topic. If you can find the joke, you have found the edges of truth and belief.
I used to worry I wasn't being concise until I saw other people try, so take heart.
To be concise and eloquent is also the downstream effect of values that form a personality. It's not something you can affect by imitating, it is the effect of cummulative competence and practice over time. You need the intellectual confidence to ask questions and interrogate your surroundings with benevolent and sincere interest. That confidence comes from finding a kernel of moral clarity that enables you to relate to the world by assuming its approval, to be a protagonist in it, and not a guest or subject who must be meek or deferential to it. Value pith, grit, vision, and humility, but postpone being too humble until you are sure you are great.
"Brevity is the soul of wit," isn't just about humour, it's about intelligence. The essence of english comedy is our surprisingly many synonyms that have wry and ironic collisions in their meanings. Absorbing the comedy practices a sense of humor, which becomes a new sense for interpreting your surroundings. Teasing out the same sense of paradox using humour leads you to the crux of literally every topic. If you can find the joke, you have found the edges of truth and belief.
I used to worry I wasn't being concise until I saw other people try, so take heart.
> Churchills speeches are good to read too.
I'm no fan of Churchill, but he was a great rhetorician, and very quick off-the-cuff:
"Sir, you are drunk."
"Yes madam; and you are ugly, but in the morning I shall be sober."
I'm no fan of Churchill, but he was a great rhetorician, and very quick off-the-cuff:
"Sir, you are drunk."
"Yes madam; and you are ugly, but in the morning I shall be sober."
I wonder if shall/will is a problem that foreign speakers of English struggle with? The distinction is largely nuance, but it makes a big difference to me which word the speaker chooses. "Shall" expresses determination, "will" is normally just intention. But "You shall go to the ball" means something quite different from "You will go to the ball".
In spoken English we often conflate them: "I'll have bacon and eggs." It's not clear whether the speaker is expressing defiance ("Aren't you having black pudding?") or simple intention. I don't know how you learn nuance in English speech, but I think humour must be part of the training.
In spoken English we often conflate them: "I'll have bacon and eggs." It's not clear whether the speaker is expressing defiance ("Aren't you having black pudding?") or simple intention. I don't know how you learn nuance in English speech, but I think humour must be part of the training.
Do people even use “Shall” in the vernacular anymore? If someone used that word in a work meeting I’d probably do a double take even though I’d understand what they meant. At least in American English.
I will drop a "shall" occasionally if I'm in the mood. "Shall we take a walk?", rather than the "Should we take a walk?" or even "Do you want to take a walk together?" It can lend itself a certain air of grace if delivered correctly. Then again, I'm an American mom in her late 30s - it might not have the same reception if said by anyone else.
Yeah, but maybe you shouldn't model your conversations on Churchill: https://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=3109#comic
What did you mean by "but postpone being too humble until you are sure you are great"? How does it follow from what you wrote before?
Many native english speakers confuse humbleness and humility, and it's an admonishment to not be meek. They are taught to affect humbleness that is not the effect of developing the greatness that would justify it.
I think what you mean is many native speakers simply use the word ‘humble’ in its verb form incorrectly.
No one is humbled by winning an award, that is, brought low or humiliated. Rather an award is typically an exaltation or celebration. What they hamfistedly are trying to say is that they feel unworthy of the award or recognition, and so many otherwise learned people do this it has come to be understood.
No one is humbled by winning an award, that is, brought low or humiliated. Rather an award is typically an exaltation or celebration. What they hamfistedly are trying to say is that they feel unworthy of the award or recognition, and so many otherwise learned people do this it has come to be understood.
I'm saying in its adjective form, being humble is a learned affectation for most people, and in its immoderate form, it makes them resentful that the abasement they are trained to offer isn't reciprocated by others, or the universe they are using it to bargain with because it doesn't care.
The most important thing about communication is to be aware that these three things might not be the same:
- what you intend to say
- what you actually communicate
- what the other person takes away from what you said
If you say a factually true thing in a very insecure way for example, the other side might not be convinced. If you mean to say something, but always find yourself to lack the words to communicate what you wanna say, chances are that what you actually communicated was not the thing you intended. It can also be that everything you say is alright, but your articulation and levels are off (too silent, too loud, slow, fast, unclear etc).
As with any thing you want to get better in the first step is to figure out which thing specifically needs improvement. A good way to do this is to record yourself and listen to it.
- what you intend to say
- what you actually communicate
- what the other person takes away from what you said
If you say a factually true thing in a very insecure way for example, the other side might not be convinced. If you mean to say something, but always find yourself to lack the words to communicate what you wanna say, chances are that what you actually communicated was not the thing you intended. It can also be that everything you say is alright, but your articulation and levels are off (too silent, too loud, slow, fast, unclear etc).
As with any thing you want to get better in the first step is to figure out which thing specifically needs improvement. A good way to do this is to record yourself and listen to it.
Three things:
1. Practice talking out loud, possibly in front of a mirror. Hear the sounds of the words as they leave your mouth. Speech is a function of motor processing that can be improved with practice like any other muscle memory.
2. There is a time aspect to speech, like music. Once speech has left your mouth in front of an audience you cannot take it back. It is spent, like time. Think about it like plumbing, like the words are sewage. Your mind runs about 2.5x faster than your mouth. Stay calm and be very deliberate with each of your words. If your mind runs out of control the words cannot escape fast enough and things get backed up. Keep a slow constant rhythm just to get your words out perfectly. Once you master confidence with your speech your faster mind allows you to think ahead to the next wonderful thoughts while your mouth is speaking.
3. Use your education to influence your spike vocabulary. This sounds obvious, but it isn’t. You must reinforce your spoken words with the strengths of your advanced writing skills to ensure your statements are clear, concise, and logically connected. This takes practice and it all comes down to confidence.
1. Practice talking out loud, possibly in front of a mirror. Hear the sounds of the words as they leave your mouth. Speech is a function of motor processing that can be improved with practice like any other muscle memory.
2. There is a time aspect to speech, like music. Once speech has left your mouth in front of an audience you cannot take it back. It is spent, like time. Think about it like plumbing, like the words are sewage. Your mind runs about 2.5x faster than your mouth. Stay calm and be very deliberate with each of your words. If your mind runs out of control the words cannot escape fast enough and things get backed up. Keep a slow constant rhythm just to get your words out perfectly. Once you master confidence with your speech your faster mind allows you to think ahead to the next wonderful thoughts while your mouth is speaking.
3. Use your education to influence your spike vocabulary. This sounds obvious, but it isn’t. You must reinforce your spoken words with the strengths of your advanced writing skills to ensure your statements are clear, concise, and logically connected. This takes practice and it all comes down to confidence.
> There is a time aspect to speech, like music.
Prosody.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosody_(linguistics)
Prosody.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosody_(linguistics)
Intonation too. Yes, speech and music are the same thing!
There is an organization called Toastmasters [1] which has the goal of helping people become better public speakers - it is often populated with professionals seeking to improve their communication skills and would certainly give you plenty of practice in speaking and formulating speech.
Similarly, you could probably enroll in a night-class for English at a local community college.
[1] https://www.toastmasters.org/
Similarly, you could probably enroll in a night-class for English at a local community college.
[1] https://www.toastmasters.org/
When I taught public speaking, the most effective advice I gave was "practice speaking like Barak Obama".
Look up videos of Obamas major speeches to see how he talks. Write down 5 topics/questions you'd often speak about, stand in front of a mirror, and give a timed 30 second mini-speech in your best Obama impression (no funny voices). If you can, record them and show them to a friend for critiques, so you can track your progess.
A couple reasons this works:
(1) He speaks slowly and deliberately, which is (a) very compelling, as it projects confidence and thoughtfulness, (b) accessible, especially if you need to think about what you're saying, and (c) it slows down the conversation, encouraging full thoughts from others, rather than rapid, back-and-forth exchange.
(2) Most people discount the value of presence (posture, eye contact, facial expression) in verbal communication. Obama does it all really well, and in a way that's pretty linearly-improvable (i.e., they're still helpful even if you're mediocre, and keep helping as you get better).
Look up videos of Obamas major speeches to see how he talks. Write down 5 topics/questions you'd often speak about, stand in front of a mirror, and give a timed 30 second mini-speech in your best Obama impression (no funny voices). If you can, record them and show them to a friend for critiques, so you can track your progess.
A couple reasons this works:
(1) He speaks slowly and deliberately, which is (a) very compelling, as it projects confidence and thoughtfulness, (b) accessible, especially if you need to think about what you're saying, and (c) it slows down the conversation, encouraging full thoughts from others, rather than rapid, back-and-forth exchange.
(2) Most people discount the value of presence (posture, eye contact, facial expression) in verbal communication. Obama does it all really well, and in a way that's pretty linearly-improvable (i.e., they're still helpful even if you're mediocre, and keep helping as you get better).
> He speaks slowly and deliberately
It works better in a speech, but not in a conversation. While non-native speakers are ramping up, it’s clearly visible where they are with their speaking skills, but if you want to come close to native speaking proficiency then speed should not be ignored.
It works better in a speech, but not in a conversation. While non-native speakers are ramping up, it’s clearly visible where they are with their speaking skills, but if you want to come close to native speaking proficiency then speed should not be ignored.
Fair - I’m just talking about communication at a given lev of fluency (I know nothing about building language fluency). Simply being better at English would def help too lol
I will point out though - the thing about Obama’s speed is that it is SO slow that, lacking filler words, it feels deliberate. The slow speed is actually playing games with silence. It’s the Yoda strategy - Yoda sucks at English, but is a wonderful communicator.
I will point out though - the thing about Obama’s speed is that it is SO slow that, lacking filler words, it feels deliberate. The slow speed is actually playing games with silence. It’s the Yoda strategy - Yoda sucks at English, but is a wonderful communicator.
https://youtu.be/Qbel5MhtDq4
One of the best speakers.
Great advice. Exactly how I became good at public speaking
One of the best speakers.
Great advice. Exactly how I became good at public speaking
Amazing thanks. Any other role models you can recommend?
I'm a native English speaker (from England), and pretty well-educated. I struggle to make my speech concise.
It's easier to cover-up your own lack of clear thinking, by using complex sentences and long words. You can easily deceive yourself. So I try to be concise, in the hope of clarifying my own thoughts. I suppose you can express your thoughts clearly and concisely in your own language, otherwise you wouldn't be asking; I just wanted to note that it's not necessarily a matter of foreign languages.
I don't know how old you are, nor what is your station in life, nor what kind of English you want to speak. Are you a techie? A writer? If you aren't hitched, get a native boyfriend/girlfriend that is interested in the field you want to be competent in. Everyone I know that is really fluent in {$FOREIGN} has, or had, a {$FOREIGN} partner.
Hell, just hire someone with the right competencies, to be your companion for a few months.
It's easier to cover-up your own lack of clear thinking, by using complex sentences and long words. You can easily deceive yourself. So I try to be concise, in the hope of clarifying my own thoughts. I suppose you can express your thoughts clearly and concisely in your own language, otherwise you wouldn't be asking; I just wanted to note that it's not necessarily a matter of foreign languages.
I don't know how old you are, nor what is your station in life, nor what kind of English you want to speak. Are you a techie? A writer? If you aren't hitched, get a native boyfriend/girlfriend that is interested in the field you want to be competent in. Everyone I know that is really fluent in {$FOREIGN} has, or had, a {$FOREIGN} partner.
Hell, just hire someone with the right competencies, to be your companion for a few months.
Practice elevator pitches till you make your points in 60 secons naturally, structuring them as 3 bullet points.
I’ve been amazed at how much the desire to mutually communicate gets undermined by the anxious anticipation of both parties to reach a conclusion that was their desired outcome going into the conversation. I would take special pains to be absolutely calm when communicating complicated ideas to others. I would also do everything in my power to listen to their ideas, understand their idea, and convey this understanding.
Watch a lot of American television and mimic the characters as they speak. Try to imitate their tone of voice, their facial expressions, body language, etc. You will feel a bit silly, but I have found no better way to improve one’s speaking ability in a foreign language.
I would recommend to focus on British English instead, as it is more graceful.
It's also harder, with more irrational spelling, and the British are much more comfortable with irony and sarcasm. Britain's a small country, and it's much easier for us to all share the same sense of humour.
Delivering irony and sarcasm successfully (like delivering jokes) is a question of culture; making an ironic remark with a particular facial expression might get you a laugh, or a punch in the face, depending how you judge it.
I've heard it said that a German joke is a very serious matter (I believe that is actually an example of a German joke). <dodges punch>
Delivering irony and sarcasm successfully (like delivering jokes) is a question of culture; making an ironic remark with a particular facial expression might get you a laugh, or a punch in the face, depending how you judge it.
I've heard it said that a German joke is a very serious matter (I believe that is actually an example of a German joke). <dodges punch>
If he’s a foreigner in Great Britain, sure. Otherwise, if he’s in the States, it probably makes a lot more sense to focus on American English…
I would recommend ignoring this suggestion, as it is pompous and undeservedly smug Eurocenterism.
[deleted]
Maybe pay for lessons? I don’t mean go to classes with a bunch of people that don’t speak the language so well but rather 1-on-1 lessons with an experienced teacher. It does feel a bit weird to pay for lessons in a language you’re already competent with but you can also think of the lessons as being an opportunity to have very deliberate practice where you should be able to get much more feedback than if you were just talking with colleagues. You may find your employer is quite willing to pay for this sort of thing too.
I have a friend from Egypt who is light years ahead of every other immigrant I know in terms of fluency, accent, etc.
His secret? He watches a ton of Seinfeld, haha. I mean a ton. And I think what really happened is he formed a sort of identity with the show- part of him is truly “American” at this point.
His secret? He watches a ton of Seinfeld, haha. I mean a ton. And I think what really happened is he formed a sort of identity with the show- part of him is truly “American” at this point.
I'm a native English speaker but I went to Spanish camp here in the USA in high school for four weeks so here's what I found anecdotally about that experience helpful - in a nutshell what happened is I started having dreams that were in Spanish, which helped me a lot as far as being able to access words/phrases quickly in the context of speech because I was starting to think in Spanish too. Academically, when I went back to school it didn't really make me a better Spanish student, but in the real world having to listen/speak it's a game changer.
As far as to the why/how I started dreaming in Spanish, I think it was how the camp was structured, the camp counselors from Spanish speaking countries made you speak Spanish if they caught you speaking English, which we did since everyone there was a native English speaker, but I just remember counselors rolling up and saying "En Español!" all the time if they caught you, so we'd have to speak it. If there was one strict rule of Spanish camp it was "En Español! No Ingles!" (paraphrasing here perhaps)
If you're not dreaming/thinking in English yet, I'd recommend trying to get there as a measuring stick because then you can literally improve in your sleep. It certainly used to be a commonplace occurrence when you were "immersed" in something, but a knee-jerk hypothesis might be that it is harder to be immersed in today's always-on + connected world. You can probably binge watch any TV show from your homeland, talk to anyone in your native tongue without insane long distance charges or waiting for the mail to be delivered, etc.; it would be understandable, but those things probably have a counter-effect to the goal I'm describing, and those things require some discipline, at least to teenagers at Spanish camp from my experience.
As far as to the why/how I started dreaming in Spanish, I think it was how the camp was structured, the camp counselors from Spanish speaking countries made you speak Spanish if they caught you speaking English, which we did since everyone there was a native English speaker, but I just remember counselors rolling up and saying "En Español!" all the time if they caught you, so we'd have to speak it. If there was one strict rule of Spanish camp it was "En Español! No Ingles!" (paraphrasing here perhaps)
If you're not dreaming/thinking in English yet, I'd recommend trying to get there as a measuring stick because then you can literally improve in your sleep. It certainly used to be a commonplace occurrence when you were "immersed" in something, but a knee-jerk hypothesis might be that it is harder to be immersed in today's always-on + connected world. You can probably binge watch any TV show from your homeland, talk to anyone in your native tongue without insane long distance charges or waiting for the mail to be delivered, etc.; it would be understandable, but those things probably have a counter-effect to the goal I'm describing, and those things require some discipline, at least to teenagers at Spanish camp from my experience.
For vocabulary and pronunciation I recommend the spaced repetition software supermemo.
However it's possible to communicate effectively even with limited language skills as long as you do not see yourself as of lower status because of it. Most people who have trouble with communication have low self-esteem or a lack of social intelligence. But everything can be fixed. To start, maybe try with the following: https://thepowermoves.com/communication-styles/ or https://thepowermoves.com/socially-awkward/ Many useful informations on the site.
However it's possible to communicate effectively even with limited language skills as long as you do not see yourself as of lower status because of it. Most people who have trouble with communication have low self-esteem or a lack of social intelligence. But everything can be fixed. To start, maybe try with the following: https://thepowermoves.com/communication-styles/ or https://thepowermoves.com/socially-awkward/ Many useful informations on the site.
Hey man, I’ve been exactly in your shoes back in 2019. I had moved to a new country, and suddenly realized that my communications skills were way behind.
I ended enrolling in an intensive English course at an Oxford School from the city I was based, and later decided to enroll on a full-year course.
Today, I feel sharper and able to communicate my ideas more efficiently. I still make mistakes, but as far as communicating ideas goes, I am far better.
PS: This year, I am enrolling again just because I want to become ever sharper at communicating, and because it gives me an advantage even over fellow people with English as a first language.
That’s what has been worked for me.
I ended enrolling in an intensive English course at an Oxford School from the city I was based, and later decided to enroll on a full-year course.
Today, I feel sharper and able to communicate my ideas more efficiently. I still make mistakes, but as far as communicating ideas goes, I am far better.
PS: This year, I am enrolling again just because I want to become ever sharper at communicating, and because it gives me an advantage even over fellow people with English as a first language.
That’s what has been worked for me.
mindset shift - every encounter as an opportunity to practice the language. The grocery store, the bus stop, shopping at IKEA - whatever the circumstance where there are other people, go do the thing you were going to do, but also have an objective to have an engagement of some sort with somebody every time
This is a great suggestion and you can also call customer service of your bank or any other bank, dealership, grocery store, or any other service you are using. If you can do it in-person even better. With each passing, compare - how well you are getting understood.
The one suggestion I keep hearing for native speakers is improvisational theatre.
I haven't personally tried it, but it makes sense to me based on what I know about training for expertise: it simulates a wide variety of situations that you have to tackle from start to end, but with space to review your efforts in between.
I don't see why it would not work for non-native speakers as well. You just have to set the expectations lower and work your way up from the point you are.
I haven't personally tried it, but it makes sense to me based on what I know about training for expertise: it simulates a wide variety of situations that you have to tackle from start to end, but with space to review your efforts in between.
I don't see why it would not work for non-native speakers as well. You just have to set the expectations lower and work your way up from the point you are.
As somebody who has taken improv classes, I would be very hesitant to recommend this as a general approach. It not only draws heavily on language skill, but also on deep cultural competency. It's a team sport, and not being able to play at the level of one's team can be a brutal experience, no matter the reason why.
I think the closest I could come would be suggesting conversations with individual instructors about whether their particular classes would be safe and useful for immigrants who struggle with verbal communication. Or perhaps to create a class where all the participants have the same challenge, in which case it becomes something to improvise with.
I think the closest I could come would be suggesting conversations with individual instructors about whether their particular classes would be safe and useful for immigrants who struggle with verbal communication. Or perhaps to create a class where all the participants have the same challenge, in which case it becomes something to improvise with.
> draw heavily on language skill, but also on deep cultural competency
I think high-level language skills includes deep cultural competency.
I think the improv suggestion is a good one. I was going to suggest doing a stint at stand-up; there are comics working in the UK who take advantage of their foreign accent (and thicken it up), but can do the timing and prosody, and can sell the joke very successfully. In a way, I think these comics have nailed British English in a way that a foreign speaker with an immaculate English accent, but no sense of humour, can never approach.
I think high-level language skills includes deep cultural competency.
I think the improv suggestion is a good one. I was going to suggest doing a stint at stand-up; there are comics working in the UK who take advantage of their foreign accent (and thicken it up), but can do the timing and prosody, and can sell the joke very successfully. In a way, I think these comics have nailed British English in a way that a foreign speaker with an immaculate English accent, but no sense of humour, can never approach.
> I think high-level language skills includes deep cultural competency
Somewhat, but not in the sense needed for improv performance. Somebody can be very strong in a language without, say, having watched all of the junk TV from the audience's childhood.
> I was going to suggest doing a stint at stand-up
Have you ever tried this? It's an absolutely brutal experience even for people with the necessary skills.
Studying stand-up comedy? Great. Trying it? I think it's a terrible idea for somebody working on learning the language. And I think you're conflating "foreign accent" with "verbal communication lags far behind", which is super weird to me in this context.
Somewhat, but not in the sense needed for improv performance. Somebody can be very strong in a language without, say, having watched all of the junk TV from the audience's childhood.
> I was going to suggest doing a stint at stand-up
Have you ever tried this? It's an absolutely brutal experience even for people with the necessary skills.
Studying stand-up comedy? Great. Trying it? I think it's a terrible idea for somebody working on learning the language. And I think you're conflating "foreign accent" with "verbal communication lags far behind", which is super weird to me in this context.
> Have you ever tried this? It's an absolutely brutal experience even for people with the necessary skills.
No; I don't have the necessary skills. I'm not funny enough, and I'm not quick-witted enough.
I used to heckle standups (and people who thought their poetry deserved a public performance). I mostly regret that behaviour now; I think I figured that a good standup should be able to use a heckler as a foil, a way to improve their show. Certainly the funniest standups can atomise a heckler instantly; heckling a good comic is very risky.
The very best standups can deal with a heckle without destroying the heckler - for example, by improvising a joke on top of the heckler's line.
No; I don't have the necessary skills. I'm not funny enough, and I'm not quick-witted enough.
I used to heckle standups (and people who thought their poetry deserved a public performance). I mostly regret that behaviour now; I think I figured that a good standup should be able to use a heckler as a foil, a way to improve their show. Certainly the funniest standups can atomise a heckler instantly; heckling a good comic is very risky.
The very best standups can deal with a heckle without destroying the heckler - for example, by improvising a joke on top of the heckler's line.
I'm a native English speaker who talks to many non-native speakers.
If I could only give one piece of advice - slow down and enunciate. People can be very forgiving of poor verbal skills as long as they can understand the sounds coming out of your mouth. But many people who are not confident in their speaking end up mumbling or speaking too quickly - this ends up just sounding like static. It is easier to understand something said incorrectly but clearly than to try to make sense of jumbled sounds.
If I could only give one piece of advice - slow down and enunciate. People can be very forgiving of poor verbal skills as long as they can understand the sounds coming out of your mouth. But many people who are not confident in their speaking end up mumbling or speaking too quickly - this ends up just sounding like static. It is easier to understand something said incorrectly but clearly than to try to make sense of jumbled sounds.
Something I never hear anyone mention, but if you have social anxiety, work on that too. It's hard to put together a coherent sentence if you're anxious.
I don’t know if people still use Meetup, but back around 2013 when I was living in California, Meetup events were popular with people who wanted a way to socialize and improve their language skills. I was a part of a Meetup that went on hiking trips. I enjoyed the cultural exchange, but the foreigners who participated also told me that it was a good way to learn many of English’s colloquial expressions in a low-pressure environment.
To clarify a bit, mastery of the language should not be confused with the ability to communicate. There are plenty of native English speaking people do poorly to communicate.
Last year I worked on a project with a developer from Mexico. While his English was good enough, his communication abilities overall were above average. One of his key strengths was to ask for clarification if I said something he didn't understand. That helped both of us. It made me have more empathy in my comms, and it expanded his understanding. So I would suggest asking for clarification if you're not clear, before you reply. Yes, some people will be a*holes about it. But most will appreciate your humility and transparency.
Funny story. My Mexican colleague and I were having a conversation. I said "yada yada yada" from Sienfeld and he asked "what is this yada yada yada?" An enlightening moment for both of us. We still joke about it.
Last year I worked on a project with a developer from Mexico. While his English was good enough, his communication abilities overall were above average. One of his key strengths was to ask for clarification if I said something he didn't understand. That helped both of us. It made me have more empathy in my comms, and it expanded his understanding. So I would suggest asking for clarification if you're not clear, before you reply. Yes, some people will be a*holes about it. But most will appreciate your humility and transparency.
Funny story. My Mexican colleague and I were having a conversation. I said "yada yada yada" from Sienfeld and he asked "what is this yada yada yada?" An enlightening moment for both of us. We still joke about it.
I know this sounds too obvious to be useful, but speak as much as you can. To practice speaking more than the daily conversations you have will require, record some videos. You might pick some technical topics (or whatever interests you) and record screencasts. Listen to them once you've recorded them. You could also share them with people or even publish them widely with the goal of getting some feedback. Good luck with it. I know it can't be easy and I can only imagine how challenging it is to try to become fluent and effective in another language, especially English which is a bastard language with so many exceptions and intricacies!
For a brutal education in this, do standup comedy. It's very easy to find open mics in most major cities. You'll quickly learn through audience feedback. For something a bit more gentle, watching tv/movies is also quite good.
1. Lots and lots of conversations and meetings. Either at work or at social events (Meetup.com?)
2. Very careful and mindful listening and observing. What do I mean? A large part of communication is non-verbal, and these are cultural and signal things that vocabulary doesn't. Also, tone. The rising and lowering of tone in a sentence changes quite a bit between languages, and is never properly taught IMO and unless you actively try to pay attention, almost no one realizes.
2. Very careful and mindful listening and observing. What do I mean? A large part of communication is non-verbal, and these are cultural and signal things that vocabulary doesn't. Also, tone. The rising and lowering of tone in a sentence changes quite a bit between languages, and is never properly taught IMO and unless you actively try to pay attention, almost no one realizes.
Record your own speech and listen to it.
Find a native speaker you want to sound like and compare your recordings. Tv and radio clips work great. Then try to repeat the same lines of the native speaker in real-time.
Keep practicing until you sound like the native speaker.
You might sound cringe to yourself, and maybe cringe to people who already know you, but plow through.
Sounding like a native works wonders. I did this for several non-English languages and when I travel abroad, the locals treat me like I belonged there.
Find a native speaker you want to sound like and compare your recordings. Tv and radio clips work great. Then try to repeat the same lines of the native speaker in real-time.
Keep practicing until you sound like the native speaker.
You might sound cringe to yourself, and maybe cringe to people who already know you, but plow through.
Sounding like a native works wonders. I did this for several non-English languages and when I travel abroad, the locals treat me like I belonged there.
Check out https://ultraspeaking.com — it’s a web app and cohort-based course built around deliberate practice through speaking games.
I took their course after reading about how the company's founders reached the Toastmasters world Championship finals in record time. The course was transformational — so much so that I joined their team!
I took their course after reading about how the company's founders reached the Toastmasters world Championship finals in record time. The course was transformational — so much so that I joined their team!
Train, train, train. Read books out loud, try to find a buddy that will correct you every time you make a pronunciation mistake... if you can afford it, there are voice coaching services and of course language training services.
Your ability to speak fluently your professional language should be your #1 priority. I'm not an English native myself so I went through this as well.
Your ability to speak fluently your professional language should be your #1 priority. I'm not an English native myself so I went through this as well.
[deleted]
Read everything by Deborah Tannen https://www.amazon.com/s?k=deborah+tannen+books&crid=ESQNSXT...
Hey, talk slow and pick up audiobooks in local language. References, cultural context awareness and a bit of slang go a long way.
Also make jokes, it puts you amour if your comfort zone in a safe way, makes you likable and almost guaranteed to work. Jokes from a non-native speaker are 2x funny
If you enjoy reading, I would recommend reading books in English and referring to an English to <your native language> dictionary to build your vocabulary. Not only will this teach yourself more words to choose from, it will also promote a more natural flow in speaking and writing.
This Show HN: "Get conversational practice in over 20 languages by talking to an AI" was recently posted. Might be worth checking out: https://talk.quazel.com/chat/try
Not to hijack this thread, I have a similar request from the HN community about mastering written communication:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32964370
A good approach is to continually ask yourself: "Am I wasting the reader's time?"
In your initial request, there are disjointed references that go nowhere and don't actually form a coherent flow of thought towards an organized conclusion. You've mentioned the rambling nature of it yourself. So why not dig a bit deeper and ask yourself precisely what makes it so rambling?
In your initial request, there are disjointed references that go nowhere and don't actually form a coherent flow of thought towards an organized conclusion. You've mentioned the rambling nature of it yourself. So why not dig a bit deeper and ask yourself precisely what makes it so rambling?
There is a language exchange subreddit where you can find someone to have Zoom calls with: https://www.reddit.com/r/language_exchange/
As a lost in translation person myself, I would say that you are just fucked.
The automatism of your natural language are always going to kick-in.
The best way is to speak slowly and to plan each word that you are going to say. For every speech, I give, I wrote it and works every word before hand.
Success
The automatism of your natural language are always going to kick-in.
The best way is to speak slowly and to plan each word that you are going to say. For every speech, I give, I wrote it and works every word before hand.
Success
You could do tandem with another person. You practice English and they practice a language that you are proficient in.
It is free and you can focus on specific things on each session. Plus you will meet people in the new country. Good luck!
It is free and you can focus on specific things on each session. Plus you will meet people in the new country. Good luck!
In front of a mirror, practice Additionally, you can record yourself. See how it sounds by reading a page from a book or newspaper and then playing it back. The listener benefits from effective use of pauses and emphasis.
Recording yourself is not a bad idea. Try reading a page from a book or a newspaper, then play it back, and see how it sounds. Good use of pauses and emphasis helps listeners too.
Written english and oral english are different worlds. I agree with the TV recommendations. What lots of "Friends," hopefully laugh, and try to imitate the lines as best you can.
Reading aloud and record yourself
Mimicking videos and speeches
Spending hours with native speakers ( customer service jobs )
Learn songs ( teaches pronunciation, intonation, prosody, enunciation)
Apps like ELSA
Mimicking videos and speeches
Spending hours with native speakers ( customer service jobs )
Learn songs ( teaches pronunciation, intonation, prosody, enunciation)
Apps like ELSA
It depends on what your goal is. Different communication needs different practice styles.
I'm an American who emigrated some years ago to Eastern Europe and work in IT with a lot of persons from Eastern Europe, and we do some trainings on working with clients (particularly Americans and UK folk) in IT settings.
All my colleagues are near native fluent in English but what they sometimes struggle with is figuring out the nuances of effective business and technical communication, or both at the same time. Putting aside how a lot of technology terms get absorbed into non-English languages, the main issue is that the speech and stylizing of ideas in their native languages don't translate well to English.
The good news is that even for native English speakers, effective speaking is typically at a fairly low level, and business and technical talk have similar things to practice.
1. Ensure you're on top of articles in English and when to use which one. Even native speakers confuse them for otherwise educated persons and for non-native speakers, it tends to be noticed a bit more. (My Russian speaking colleagues struggle with this sometimes as they don't have articles really)
2. Focus on clarity of thought instead of specific high-level words. I personally think that tests like the TOEFL set non-english speakers up for disappointment as a lot of the items they check on are not common terms in every day speech.
3. English is a bit more "fluffy" than other languages which can come off as direct to native English speakers, and to make it worse, many English classes teach overly formal English to compensate for this. Go to a bar or out to eat with native speakers with the understanding that you want to practice with them and just study how they say things. Keep in mind many native English speakers don't remember the proper terms for rules of English grammar, and you may know it even more than they do. Instead, focus on just mimicking their style and asking how phrases sound to their ear (do keep in mind that everyone has a style of speech, so try to get a few sources to practice with)
4. I actually would advise against watching TV/Movies to learn how to improve communication -- these are highly stylized conversations with a pacing that is only found in TV/movies, you really will find it difficult to convert it. Some podcasts/youtubes might be better, but focus on the more casual channels as popular ones have a specific style meant to be attention grabbing to viewers. An example of one I think isn't bad is LockPicking Lawyer; he speaks about fairly technical things and definitely has settled on a calm and cadenced style, but at the same time the word choice and way of presenting is fairly normal and well received. Find ones like that.
5. Effective business communication is usually about brevity and presenting a large volume of information in a simple and evocative way; that is, you can say something like "our current estimates for the project have exceeded the initial projections and we expect to have to adjust the desired deadline to a more achievable goal". Or you can just say "The current evidence suggests we will miss our initially projected deadline, so we will need to adjust it to a more realistic point." The difference is adding in a lot of excess terminology that really isn't used in every day speech; the concepts are taught in business classes to allow for a teaching framework, but just like latin phrases aren't typically used in US legal proceedings, no one communicating effectively actually uses such terms unironically.
6. Follow the idea of Richard Feynman and first ensure you understand the concept of what you want to discuss. Feynman famously tried to explain a complex subject to first years and gave up saying: "I couldn't reduce it to the freshman level. That means we really don't understand it." This isn't specific to English, it's just general communication skills, so make sure you know how to explain to yourself what you want to say, and then you can find the words to further simplify difficult concepts to others.
7. This one is more a personal thing for me, but I advise be the one to ask your speaking partners "am I saying this right?" I've had many colleagues and friends tell me "please just outright correct me when I make a mistake in English", but it's pretty difficult to do in a "right" way, and it's to easy to have a misunderstanding that results in hurt feelings. If you're not sure on a phrase or term, just ask about it and your partners will be much more open to explaining.
8. Since you asked about conciseness, take time to write out your thoughts on complex subjects. Don't edit at this stage, just write. Once you're done, go back over it and start to strike out every extra word and sentence that doesn't contribute to the total understanding of your thoughts. Practice this a bunch and then start recording yourself on new subjects. If you have an opportunity for public speaking with your work, do it. It's scary at first, but you'd be amazed how fast someone can fall in love with it; I'm 100% an introvert, but I've come to love doing presentations on technical topics and people seem to really enjoy them. Planned speaking is really good because you typically have a time limit, and you have to first write what you want to say, see how long it takes you in practice, then cut it down. It's a great exercise that helps you to understand what can and cannot be removed to keep effective communication while keeping brief. Even just for an internal video series or small presentation to friends, it's a great exercise.
Hope at least some of this sparks some inspiration.
I'm an American who emigrated some years ago to Eastern Europe and work in IT with a lot of persons from Eastern Europe, and we do some trainings on working with clients (particularly Americans and UK folk) in IT settings.
All my colleagues are near native fluent in English but what they sometimes struggle with is figuring out the nuances of effective business and technical communication, or both at the same time. Putting aside how a lot of technology terms get absorbed into non-English languages, the main issue is that the speech and stylizing of ideas in their native languages don't translate well to English.
The good news is that even for native English speakers, effective speaking is typically at a fairly low level, and business and technical talk have similar things to practice.
1. Ensure you're on top of articles in English and when to use which one. Even native speakers confuse them for otherwise educated persons and for non-native speakers, it tends to be noticed a bit more. (My Russian speaking colleagues struggle with this sometimes as they don't have articles really)
2. Focus on clarity of thought instead of specific high-level words. I personally think that tests like the TOEFL set non-english speakers up for disappointment as a lot of the items they check on are not common terms in every day speech.
3. English is a bit more "fluffy" than other languages which can come off as direct to native English speakers, and to make it worse, many English classes teach overly formal English to compensate for this. Go to a bar or out to eat with native speakers with the understanding that you want to practice with them and just study how they say things. Keep in mind many native English speakers don't remember the proper terms for rules of English grammar, and you may know it even more than they do. Instead, focus on just mimicking their style and asking how phrases sound to their ear (do keep in mind that everyone has a style of speech, so try to get a few sources to practice with)
4. I actually would advise against watching TV/Movies to learn how to improve communication -- these are highly stylized conversations with a pacing that is only found in TV/movies, you really will find it difficult to convert it. Some podcasts/youtubes might be better, but focus on the more casual channels as popular ones have a specific style meant to be attention grabbing to viewers. An example of one I think isn't bad is LockPicking Lawyer; he speaks about fairly technical things and definitely has settled on a calm and cadenced style, but at the same time the word choice and way of presenting is fairly normal and well received. Find ones like that.
5. Effective business communication is usually about brevity and presenting a large volume of information in a simple and evocative way; that is, you can say something like "our current estimates for the project have exceeded the initial projections and we expect to have to adjust the desired deadline to a more achievable goal". Or you can just say "The current evidence suggests we will miss our initially projected deadline, so we will need to adjust it to a more realistic point." The difference is adding in a lot of excess terminology that really isn't used in every day speech; the concepts are taught in business classes to allow for a teaching framework, but just like latin phrases aren't typically used in US legal proceedings, no one communicating effectively actually uses such terms unironically.
6. Follow the idea of Richard Feynman and first ensure you understand the concept of what you want to discuss. Feynman famously tried to explain a complex subject to first years and gave up saying: "I couldn't reduce it to the freshman level. That means we really don't understand it." This isn't specific to English, it's just general communication skills, so make sure you know how to explain to yourself what you want to say, and then you can find the words to further simplify difficult concepts to others.
7. This one is more a personal thing for me, but I advise be the one to ask your speaking partners "am I saying this right?" I've had many colleagues and friends tell me "please just outright correct me when I make a mistake in English", but it's pretty difficult to do in a "right" way, and it's to easy to have a misunderstanding that results in hurt feelings. If you're not sure on a phrase or term, just ask about it and your partners will be much more open to explaining.
8. Since you asked about conciseness, take time to write out your thoughts on complex subjects. Don't edit at this stage, just write. Once you're done, go back over it and start to strike out every extra word and sentence that doesn't contribute to the total understanding of your thoughts. Practice this a bunch and then start recording yourself on new subjects. If you have an opportunity for public speaking with your work, do it. It's scary at first, but you'd be amazed how fast someone can fall in love with it; I'm 100% an introvert, but I've come to love doing presentations on technical topics and people seem to really enjoy them. Planned speaking is really good because you typically have a time limit, and you have to first write what you want to say, see how long it takes you in practice, then cut it down. It's a great exercise that helps you to understand what can and cannot be removed to keep effective communication while keeping brief. Even just for an internal video series or small presentation to friends, it's a great exercise.
Hope at least some of this sparks some inspiration.
I think this is mainly good advice.
> many native English speakers don't remember the proper terms for rules of English grammar
Umm, that is a gross understatement. Hardly any English schoolchildren are taught grammar, let alone names for the rules of grammar. I learned grammar, back in the sixties; but not English grammar. Oh no - I had to take Latin classes, and that's where I learned grammar. "Grammar" is almost an obscene word, in modern English pedagogical circles. They get taught about "thing words" and "doing words".
> many native English speakers don't remember the proper terms for rules of English grammar
Umm, that is a gross understatement. Hardly any English schoolchildren are taught grammar, let alone names for the rules of grammar. I learned grammar, back in the sixties; but not English grammar. Oh no - I had to take Latin classes, and that's where I learned grammar. "Grammar" is almost an obscene word, in modern English pedagogical circles. They get taught about "thing words" and "doing words".
Surprisingly what is said can have less weight than how it is said. Prosody is important in verbal communication.
Unpopular answer: alcohol. Not while your working hours, of course.
When I first came to UK as a tourist, I traveled quite a few European countries and was of high regard towards my English. Bummer: starting from Heathrow border control I could barely understand people and they had to make an effort to understand me. Same at the hotel.
So I got to the nearest local pub and was sitting there really having hard reflections on my language skill, when someone approached me and says something like "Hey, mate, why the long face?". I tried to communicate and to my surprise it was easier than before. In a couple hours and few pints I was supporting not just a small talk, but the full fledged political discussion about Putin killing Litvinenko.
I read later, that alcohol, to put it simple, breaks our internal barriers. In my case language trouble was caused by such barrier named "I must be good at things". So I was trying to build correct phrases, use articles, tenses and so on. After couple of beers I just throwed all these out of the window and was more interested in listening to my peers and getting my words to them.
The same is correct for the work: everyone knows than you are not a native speaker, and no one expects you to use Shakespeare's language. All you need is to get the information from and to your team, no matter accent and other things.
If someone will snob you with your language skills - let them be, they probably don't have any other reason to feel themselves superior to you.
When I first came to UK as a tourist, I traveled quite a few European countries and was of high regard towards my English. Bummer: starting from Heathrow border control I could barely understand people and they had to make an effort to understand me. Same at the hotel.
So I got to the nearest local pub and was sitting there really having hard reflections on my language skill, when someone approached me and says something like "Hey, mate, why the long face?". I tried to communicate and to my surprise it was easier than before. In a couple hours and few pints I was supporting not just a small talk, but the full fledged political discussion about Putin killing Litvinenko.
I read later, that alcohol, to put it simple, breaks our internal barriers. In my case language trouble was caused by such barrier named "I must be good at things". So I was trying to build correct phrases, use articles, tenses and so on. After couple of beers I just throwed all these out of the window and was more interested in listening to my peers and getting my words to them.
The same is correct for the work: everyone knows than you are not a native speaker, and no one expects you to use Shakespeare's language. All you need is to get the information from and to your team, no matter accent and other things.
If someone will snob you with your language skills - let them be, they probably don't have any other reason to feel themselves superior to you.
Consider working with a speech pathologist. They are experts in speech modification.
Fail big. Fail often.
Play Diplomacy.
Read more. And say it out loud.
The best strategy is make a few friends you trust (of the same sex, preferably) and ask them to correct you no matter what in conversation.
Any other strategy to speaking great English will take you much longer. Immediate corrective feedback is the path of accelerated learning in anything.
Any other strategy to speaking great English will take you much longer. Immediate corrective feedback is the path of accelerated learning in anything.
comrades001(1)
English is not my native language, which makes my challenge of improving it harder.
I wonder what strategies and lifehacks worked for you to make your speech more concise and eloquent?
yes, i know that it’s all about practice. But which specific ways and kinds of practicing are most effective ones is not clear to me.