Staff Engineer Archetypes (2020)(lethain.com)
lethain.com
Staff Engineer Archetypes (2020)
https://lethain.com/staff-engineer-archetypes/
268 comments
This is jaded and angry, but I think there is another archetype called "the politician." They play the game extremely well, providing poorly thought out solutions quickly to problems they haven't dug into the complexity of. They lay operational traps everywhere in their quest to get things done fast (like directly embedding config data in code to avoid fixing the config format). Once they've picked the low hanging fruit and left too much complexity to maintain, they hop to another company where they sell themselves on all they accomplished leaving out the absolutely unmaintainable mess they left behind.
I usually think of an at-work "politician" as somehow taking advantage of relationships or social forces.
What you describe sounds more to me like the ""10X engineer"" (with extra scare quotes for good measure).
Many people have been skeptical of the idea of the 10X engineer. One take is that if your normal engineers are less than 1/10th as productive as another engineer and all of them are merely human beings, there might be some common organizational problems that your normal engineers are all being stymied by. Another take is that your 10X engineers can only achieve their high level of productivity through taking on more technical debt than others understand or would tolerate, leaving messes behind for the eventual maintainers to fix.
What you describe sounds more to me like the ""10X engineer"" (with extra scare quotes for good measure).
Many people have been skeptical of the idea of the 10X engineer. One take is that if your normal engineers are less than 1/10th as productive as another engineer and all of them are merely human beings, there might be some common organizational problems that your normal engineers are all being stymied by. Another take is that your 10X engineers can only achieve their high level of productivity through taking on more technical debt than others understand or would tolerate, leaving messes behind for the eventual maintainers to fix.
In the workforce - the real answer is that the 1x engineers really really aren't operating at full capacity. You assume all parties give it their all. They rarely do.
Get through college
Do what you have to in other to get the job.
Do what you have to in order to keep the job.
10x people do some very basic things. They care. They read about code. They have side projects. They improve their skills because doing so is fun.
In a company that hires "the best" and pays very well you shouldn't see a 1x 10x divide, assuming they hire well.
In those that don't, those that only want work done and don't particularly care? That's where the dichotomy presents itself.
There is nothing inherently wrong with either group. Work gets paid, you don't have to be a magical 10x engineer to be worth the salary. And there's no shame in coding as a job instead of as a hobby.
Get through college
Do what you have to in other to get the job.
Do what you have to in order to keep the job.
10x people do some very basic things. They care. They read about code. They have side projects. They improve their skills because doing so is fun.
In a company that hires "the best" and pays very well you shouldn't see a 1x 10x divide, assuming they hire well.
In those that don't, those that only want work done and don't particularly care? That's where the dichotomy presents itself.
There is nothing inherently wrong with either group. Work gets paid, you don't have to be a magical 10x engineer to be worth the salary. And there's no shame in coding as a job instead of as a hobby.
"Hiring well" or hiring "the best" isn't a panacea. People change. Before I had kids, I was working hard, working late nights, and some of my work was all-consuming. After, I've definitely had periods where my main focus was on showing up to meetings and making sure I got at least pretty okay on my performance reviews, while actually focusing on, y'know, not work. If the company doesn't punish people for becoming half as productive, a lot of the folks are going to become half as productive, even if they were "the best" at some point. Especially true when morale at a company drops. Canceling projects, being assigned to boring projects (the next year will focus on Sarbanes Oxley compliance, guys!), having your company or work dragged through the news, it adds up, and people get detached.
I don't think there's anything wrong being this 1x engineer. In fact, the 10x engineer is probably only being paid a touch more for doing a lot more work and having a lot worse work-life balance.
> In fact, the 10x engineer is probably only being paid a touch more for doing a lot more work and having a lot worse work-life balance.
Sometimes, sure.
But often (especially later in a career) overperforming people operate a bit more like senior partners. They have jr staff / understudies to handle crank turning. They can give direction and set things on a solid path without necessarily putting in a ton of hours.
In a healthy org, this is the "architect" role. Or sometimes the "solver," or some combination thereof. I'm sure you're familiar with the adage about the guy who charges $10k to mark the problem, $1 for the time and $9,999 for knowing where to make the mark.
Sometimes, sure.
But often (especially later in a career) overperforming people operate a bit more like senior partners. They have jr staff / understudies to handle crank turning. They can give direction and set things on a solid path without necessarily putting in a ton of hours.
In a healthy org, this is the "architect" role. Or sometimes the "solver," or some combination thereof. I'm sure you're familiar with the adage about the guy who charges $10k to mark the problem, $1 for the time and $9,999 for knowing where to make the mark.
If these 10x engineers really exist, they're rare. Building an engineering department with this type of employee isn't sustainable.
In 20+ years I've only worked with maybe 2 genuine examples of the good 10x engineer, and far more examples of the bad "10x engineer" who flies around quickly reimplementing patterns that they implemented at other companies, whether they're suitable or not. Once the low-hanging fruit is all gone and only the hard stuff (and hubris) remains, they leave. Usually, after getting pissy because other engineers have inherited their crap have started pushing back and questioning their design choices. I've inherited systems built by people like this and it's not pleasant.
You also better be willing to hire constantly if you want a few more 10xers in your back pocket. If hiring a regular "good engineer" is hard, then hiring one of these is harder. You need to find them, convince them to interview, present them with an interesting challenge, have a great interview process that separates wheat from the chaff. And finally, pay them a ton and don't let them burn themselves out
Oh, and admit that replacing a 10x engineer is going to be basically impossible, not just because it's hard to hire them, but because each one that leaves your takes far more experience and knowledge with them when they go (than the 1x engineer). If the 10x moniker was really accurate, it would be like losing a team of 10.
Sometimes it's better to have a reliable team of 6 engineers in at least 2 timezones who get along well, sync up once a week and have a really good lead/manager. This is sustainable, easier to hire, onboard, retain. And less detrimental if you lose one.
In 20+ years I've only worked with maybe 2 genuine examples of the good 10x engineer, and far more examples of the bad "10x engineer" who flies around quickly reimplementing patterns that they implemented at other companies, whether they're suitable or not. Once the low-hanging fruit is all gone and only the hard stuff (and hubris) remains, they leave. Usually, after getting pissy because other engineers have inherited their crap have started pushing back and questioning their design choices. I've inherited systems built by people like this and it's not pleasant.
You also better be willing to hire constantly if you want a few more 10xers in your back pocket. If hiring a regular "good engineer" is hard, then hiring one of these is harder. You need to find them, convince them to interview, present them with an interesting challenge, have a great interview process that separates wheat from the chaff. And finally, pay them a ton and don't let them burn themselves out
Oh, and admit that replacing a 10x engineer is going to be basically impossible, not just because it's hard to hire them, but because each one that leaves your takes far more experience and knowledge with them when they go (than the 1x engineer). If the 10x moniker was really accurate, it would be like losing a team of 10.
Sometimes it's better to have a reliable team of 6 engineers in at least 2 timezones who get along well, sync up once a week and have a really good lead/manager. This is sustainable, easier to hire, onboard, retain. And less detrimental if you lose one.
> the next year will focus on Sarbanes Oxley compliance, guys!
How is it more boring than any other kind of project you'd do in a large finance institution?
How is it more boring than any other kind of project you'd do in a large finance institution?
More often than not, it's people that care about how to create abstractions that amplify their productivity.
That is only possible if they can spend some time building abstract stuff that cannot be explained to non-technical stakeholders, which is not possible with sweatshop engineering methodologies like Scrum, or when you promote the smiling bozos that completed their 5 person-minutes Agile crash course to management.
That is only possible if they can spend some time building abstract stuff that cannot be explained to non-technical stakeholders, which is not possible with sweatshop engineering methodologies like Scrum, or when you promote the smiling bozos that completed their 5 person-minutes Agile crash course to management.
Abstraction is not a panacea. It's often the root cause of significant technical debt. Abstracting as late as possible is often the best course of action, as it give you more information about how to abstract from the initial implementation.
Most people think it's the people that are special or underperforming, but my view is probably a bit more contrarian. I think that some environments work in such a way that only a few can succeed while others make success possible in a network effect or on more manageable scale. I don't think that environments that produce the former really mean to; rather I think it's the leaders that are unable to craft incentive systems, pool resources, or effectively communicate that end up creating these kinds of ecosystems. It's really a fundamental misunderstanding of the people part of the job, which turns out to usually be the hardest.
I disagree. You should work on bottom up abstractions, base yourself on first principles. Amending abstractions built like this are cheap and straight forward. This is opposed to top-down, gluing already made monstrosities.
Yes, that's why it takes effort to learn how to properly create abstractions that solve more problems than they cause.
I would add to this; that a certain amount of bad abstractions are preferable to underdoing it. The learning from failure (when there's sufficient investment in the outcome) is far more valuable than avoiding inefficiency.
Learning better ways is a process - so long as you remain robust in the face of failure and grow from it.
Learning better ways is a process - so long as you remain robust in the face of failure and grow from it.
Improper abstraction does usually lead to significant technical debt, but if you are lucky you can bank your short-term successes and leave the tech debt to someone else.
> Many people have been skeptical of the idea of the 10X engineer. O
Nah, of course 10x engineers exist. A 10X engineer saw that hundreds of engineers were writing MPI code to process data and struggled with error handling and therefore came up with a map-reduce framework and its underlying infra. The same infra also helped bootstrap a whole industry. In this case, we are talking about 10^6X engineer. Another 10X engineer got fed up with MapReduce's abstraction and decided to borrow more concepts from functional programming and also invented a little data structure called RDD. This is a 10^5X engineer. A 10X engineer saw that his org build ad-hoc solutions to provision hardware and therefore decided to build an abstraction layer called EC2. Oops! That's another 10^6X engineer. A 10X engineer was not happy that writing GPGPU code was slow and error prone so he decided to worked out a library called CUDA. That's another 10^4X engineer, no? A 10X engineer was fed up with people implementing all kinds of broken consensus protocol and coded out a little practical implementation of Paxos called Chubby. All of a sudden the world of engineers woke up to the idea that consensus can be centrally managed and can be robust. That's a 10^4X engineer, right? A 10X engineer hates that his org write ad-hoc and crappy code on Zookeeper, so he packaged his wisdom into a little library called Curator with two clean concepts: framework and Recipes, and thousands of engineers' life just got immensely better. That's at least a 10^3X engineer, right? A 10X engineer was not sure why it takes an artist years to write quality compilers, be it frontend or backend, so he decided to come up with this little framework called llvm. That's a 10^5X engineer, right? Oh man, I think I can write a book about the examples...
Nah, of course 10x engineers exist. A 10X engineer saw that hundreds of engineers were writing MPI code to process data and struggled with error handling and therefore came up with a map-reduce framework and its underlying infra. The same infra also helped bootstrap a whole industry. In this case, we are talking about 10^6X engineer. Another 10X engineer got fed up with MapReduce's abstraction and decided to borrow more concepts from functional programming and also invented a little data structure called RDD. This is a 10^5X engineer. A 10X engineer saw that his org build ad-hoc solutions to provision hardware and therefore decided to build an abstraction layer called EC2. Oops! That's another 10^6X engineer. A 10X engineer was not happy that writing GPGPU code was slow and error prone so he decided to worked out a library called CUDA. That's another 10^4X engineer, no? A 10X engineer was fed up with people implementing all kinds of broken consensus protocol and coded out a little practical implementation of Paxos called Chubby. All of a sudden the world of engineers woke up to the idea that consensus can be centrally managed and can be robust. That's a 10^4X engineer, right? A 10X engineer hates that his org write ad-hoc and crappy code on Zookeeper, so he packaged his wisdom into a little library called Curator with two clean concepts: framework and Recipes, and thousands of engineers' life just got immensely better. That's at least a 10^3X engineer, right? A 10X engineer was not sure why it takes an artist years to write quality compilers, be it frontend or backend, so he decided to come up with this little framework called llvm. That's a 10^5X engineer, right? Oh man, I think I can write a book about the examples...
Look up Jeff Dean:
https://research.google/people/jeff/
https://research.google/people/jeff/
Were each of these really achievements by a single engineer, or a team? One guy wrote CUDA?
Ian Buck wrote the initial version, right? I'm sure multiple teams polished the aforementioned software. It's just that it was this one or two engineers came up with the idea, built the the first working version that the other fellow engineers thought impossible or too expensive or unworthy to build, and the rest was the history.
> that the other fellow engineers thought impossible or too expensive or unworthy to build
This is not an exhaustive list and you have just picked the points that support your weak argument.
This is not an exhaustive list and you have just picked the points that support your weak argument.
I thought $\exists$ does not require an exhaustive list, but $\forall$ does.
The initial version of MapReduce was conceptualized and implemented by two people (Jeff Dean and Sanjay Ghemawat). Those were the only names that appeared on the paper: https://static.googleusercontent.com/media/research.google.c...
If you have never seen a 10x engineer you either have never worked with truly talented people or you haven’t worked on actual hard problems.
There aren’t just 10 or 100x engineers , there are even infinityX engineers when you work on actual hard problems because some of those can only be solved by handful of people.
There aren’t just 10 or 100x engineers , there are even infinityX engineers when you work on actual hard problems because some of those can only be solved by handful of people.
This reminds me of an old essay: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2005/07/25/hitting-the-high-n...
The thesis is that the "10x engineers" don't output a linear multiple of the same kind of work their peers do. Instead, they implement solutions that their peers wouldn't or couldn't over any length of time.
This matches my experience.
The thesis is that the "10x engineers" don't output a linear multiple of the same kind of work their peers do. Instead, they implement solutions that their peers wouldn't or couldn't over any length of time.
This matches my experience.
It’s interesting how obvious this is for other domains. For example, imagine you are hiring for an orchestra, and are told just to increase the violin section by five to make up for the lack of good violinists.
The 10x engineer identifies common subproblems across different problems, and then creates a layer of reusable code which becomes a library. Then uses this library to write code 10x faster.
The 10x engineer tries to standardize problems and solve them en-masse.
The 1x engineer sees every problem as a different problem that requires a different solution.
The 10x engineer talks about abstractions, the 1x engineer talks about concrete implementations.
The 10x engineer believes in investing in productivity. The 1x engineer wants a visible solution right now.
The 1x engineer never has time because they're too busy making themselves less productive by owning more and more code to maintain. The 10x engineer is always looking for code to remove and refactor, and making the solution as small as possible.
The 10x engineer will talk about programming language features and libraries that promote reusability, the 1x engineer only talks about tangible stuff.
The 1x engineer talks about their car and weekend, the 10x engineer talks about technology.
The 10x engineer tries to standardize problems and solve them en-masse.
The 1x engineer sees every problem as a different problem that requires a different solution.
The 10x engineer talks about abstractions, the 1x engineer talks about concrete implementations.
The 10x engineer believes in investing in productivity. The 1x engineer wants a visible solution right now.
The 1x engineer never has time because they're too busy making themselves less productive by owning more and more code to maintain. The 10x engineer is always looking for code to remove and refactor, and making the solution as small as possible.
The 10x engineer will talk about programming language features and libraries that promote reusability, the 1x engineer only talks about tangible stuff.
The 1x engineer talks about their car and weekend, the 10x engineer talks about technology.
I check all of the 10x engineer boxes from above, or at least I think I do, and that speaks as if I am a 10x engineer but I genuinely don't think I am. I think 10x engineer is something different. 10x engineer usually doesn't care about the things from above.
I think it is more about the ability to grasp vast amounts of complexity in relatively short amount of time and be able to sustain it. Business and market wise this is what is going to make a difference. Some engineers aren't even able to tackle such complexity because of so much layers of it which is why at some moment it just becomes ... too much. Others that can do it, it would take them considerably larger amount of time to do it.
I think it is more about the ability to grasp vast amounts of complexity in relatively short amount of time and be able to sustain it. Business and market wise this is what is going to make a difference. Some engineers aren't even able to tackle such complexity because of so much layers of it which is why at some moment it just becomes ... too much. Others that can do it, it would take them considerably larger amount of time to do it.
> The 1x engineer talks about their car and weekend, the 10x engineer talks about technology.
Call me a proud member of the 1x engineer club. When I close my laptop at the end of the day or even when I’m having lunch with my coworkers, few people would know that I’m an “engineer” at all. The list of things that I care about more than technology in my non work life is a mile long. Technology is a means to an end - to support my addiction to food and shelter.
Call me a proud member of the 1x engineer club. When I close my laptop at the end of the day or even when I’m having lunch with my coworkers, few people would know that I’m an “engineer” at all. The list of things that I care about more than technology in my non work life is a mile long. Technology is a means to an end - to support my addiction to food and shelter.
This is fine for a certain class of work, and disastrous when applied to another class of work.
To use an analogy a physician's assistant[1] doing brain surgery could be a big problem. if you need the latter. Also, you're probably overpaying if you hire the latter to administer Tylenol ...
[1]: exclude the special class of surgical PAs xD
To use an analogy a physician's assistant[1] doing brain surgery could be a big problem. if you need the latter. Also, you're probably overpaying if you hire the latter to administer Tylenol ...
[1]: exclude the special class of surgical PAs xD
Spoiler alert: most of the 2.7 million developers in the US aren’t “solving hard problems”. I interact with the people who are writing the services for the largest cloud provider. When I meet them for lunch, they are seldomly talking about work.
For awhile, I was working with the service teams involved with the various AI services trying to publish an open source demo around their services. When we left for lunch we were talking about travel, cars, our families, places to eat, etc.
For awhile, I was working with the service teams involved with the various AI services trying to publish an open source demo around their services. When we left for lunch we were talking about travel, cars, our families, places to eat, etc.
Most of the millions of plumbers in the US are not solving plumbing puzzles, they're ensuring that plumbing systems work.
I bet the well adjusted ones don’t talk about plumbing in every sentence.
There is so much more to life than technology - this is coming from someone who did hobby programming in assembly language on four different processors by the time I graduated - in 1996.
There is so much more to life than technology - this is coming from someone who did hobby programming in assembly language on four different processors by the time I graduated - in 1996.
I sincerely doubt the 10x brain surgeon talks only about brain surgery in their downtime. I would assert that a true 10x person is smart enough to maintain good work-life balance.
There is an infinite pool work you can do. Smart, real 10x’ers understand what is a priority and are smart enough to pack their shit at the end of the day, go home and do nothing at all with their work.
There is an infinite pool work you can do. Smart, real 10x’ers understand what is a priority and are smart enough to pack their shit at the end of the day, go home and do nothing at all with their work.
Maybe 10x are just people whose hobby overlaps with work?
I've been a 10x engineer, I've been a 1x engineer, and I've been a 0.5x engineer. There isn't some consistent set of things, it's a ton of circumstance.
Now, as a leader type, I would prefer to hire 1x engineers to 10x engineers, for a whole litany of reasons. 1x engineers are largely predictable, where as 10x can be 10x in any wild direction, because they're more or less deciding for themselves a bunch of shit they really shouldn't be.
10x engineers like to decide for themselves things like how to go to market or which features to build in what order, without doing any of the requisite research or information gathering necessary. It's infuriating because 10x engineers think passion or some arbitrary definition of "Correctness" gives them power, when in reality they're just operating with a heavily limited set of information (gee, I wonder how they had all that time to build stuff, maybe because they weren't attending meetings???).
Sorry, this turned into a not-very-coherent rant, but the point is 10x engineers aren't worth hiring as anything other than literally employee #1, and even then it's a huge dice roll.
Now, as a leader type, I would prefer to hire 1x engineers to 10x engineers, for a whole litany of reasons. 1x engineers are largely predictable, where as 10x can be 10x in any wild direction, because they're more or less deciding for themselves a bunch of shit they really shouldn't be.
10x engineers like to decide for themselves things like how to go to market or which features to build in what order, without doing any of the requisite research or information gathering necessary. It's infuriating because 10x engineers think passion or some arbitrary definition of "Correctness" gives them power, when in reality they're just operating with a heavily limited set of information (gee, I wonder how they had all that time to build stuff, maybe because they weren't attending meetings???).
Sorry, this turned into a not-very-coherent rant, but the point is 10x engineers aren't worth hiring as anything other than literally employee #1, and even then it's a huge dice roll.
[deleted]
As an 11x engineer that is also a rockstar engineer I approve the message
tjr225(1)
> some of those can only be solved by handful of people
Ultimately it can probably be solved by other people, but it’d take multiple years.
I think the 10x is not so much because those engineers are particularly fast, it’s just that anyone else working in the domain is 10x slower.
Like if I tried to build a compiler, I’d quickly become known as a 0.1x engineer.
Ultimately it can probably be solved by other people, but it’d take multiple years.
I think the 10x is not so much because those engineers are particularly fast, it’s just that anyone else working in the domain is 10x slower.
Like if I tried to build a compiler, I’d quickly become known as a 0.1x engineer.
I've seen 10x engineers. They do exist. However I've never seen them in isolation. It's more like teams of 10x engineers. I've seen teams of people who just get 10x more work done than equivalent teams elsewhere, usually because they consist of a bunch of amazing engineers and are enabled by management to get things done.
I'd generally agree to this. The most recent job I've worked at have amazing management buy-in and empowerment by management to just "get things done fast" that ends up working amazingly well because the freedom we've been given translates to great results.
This is a little catch-22 in getting started though. A great team held back by management hesitation can demotivate and cause attrition. Management buy-in for ineffective teams will run faster by bypassing many org hurdles fall over by their own inability to execute solutions that pass the test of time. It seems like these rare "10x" teams are hard to form in companies that can't consistently attract and retain very talented ICs
This is a little catch-22 in getting started though. A great team held back by management hesitation can demotivate and cause attrition. Management buy-in for ineffective teams will run faster by bypassing many org hurdles fall over by their own inability to execute solutions that pass the test of time. It seems like these rare "10x" teams are hard to form in companies that can't consistently attract and retain very talented ICs
I think that's because a good amount of 1x engineers could be 10x engineers if given the right kinds of support. When leadership makes sure they have that support, they become 10x engineers. If you only ever see clusters of 10x engineers, it's more likely to be about the factors around them than the engineers themselves.
I think it's both. You get a 10x engineer and a good environment and they bring in other 10x engineers who want to work with them.
Motivated + enabled. 110%.
I will say. In terms of man hours, often those teams take a multiple of effort from people around the company to support.
They just, consume a lot of time and attention. From various business analysts, vice presidents reviewing their output, etc etc.
I will say. In terms of man hours, often those teams take a multiple of effort from people around the company to support.
They just, consume a lot of time and attention. From various business analysts, vice presidents reviewing their output, etc etc.
The scare quote 10x engineer I'd consider a faux 10x engineer. I have seen them -- and working through their code is not pleasant. But I've also seen people who just operate as such a high level that their code is top notch from the get go, they think clearly about the problem and then have a clear solution. Those are the real 10x (or whatever multiplier you want to use).
> Many people have been skeptical of the idea of the 10X engineer.
Why is 10x anything such a skeptical concept? We see it everywhere.
We see it in quality, impact, and effort.
Linus wrote git in days, and it was way better SVN.
Messi is probably 100x better in terms of stats and skills and 100000x better in terms of earning when comparing to an average soccer player
Apple's iPod is 10x better than Zune and makes 100000x more money.
A great entrepreneur is probably 10000x better (more impact more money) than a good one.
It is not strange that one engineer would be 10x of the other engineer in certain aspects.
Why is 10x anything such a skeptical concept? We see it everywhere.
We see it in quality, impact, and effort.
Linus wrote git in days, and it was way better SVN.
Messi is probably 100x better in terms of stats and skills and 100000x better in terms of earning when comparing to an average soccer player
Apple's iPod is 10x better than Zune and makes 100000x more money.
A great entrepreneur is probably 10000x better (more impact more money) than a good one.
It is not strange that one engineer would be 10x of the other engineer in certain aspects.
> Linus wrote git in days, and it was way better SVN.
Linus designed and coded some data structures, and some basic utilities to manipulate and store them, in just a few days - based on a fundamentally better model and as a replacement for an existing product they could no longer use. Designing and developing git into a usable product and system took a whole lot longer and involved thousands of people.
The examples you cite are all similarly flawed gross simplifications or mischaracterisations.
I urge you to reconsider your reasoning.
Linus designed and coded some data structures, and some basic utilities to manipulate and store them, in just a few days - based on a fundamentally better model and as a replacement for an existing product they could no longer use. Designing and developing git into a usable product and system took a whole lot longer and involved thousands of people.
The examples you cite are all similarly flawed gross simplifications or mischaracterisations.
I urge you to reconsider your reasoning.
Instead of being pedantic, it would be better to describe how the examples are flawed, so we could have had a discussion. But you think "nah let's be pedantic".
I urge you to reconsider not being pedantic next time
And what Linus initially wrote was definitely a usable product. The product has evolved more since then, but that doesn't mean the initial version doesn't work. Actually most of the original code still exists.
Back to the original point, this is the example of a >10x engineer (by impact, coding speed, innovation) who conceived, wrote a popular software in days, grew the community, and grew it to the insane popularity today. Only a handful of engineers in the world could ever achieve this kind of things.
I urge you to reconsider not being pedantic next time
And what Linus initially wrote was definitely a usable product. The product has evolved more since then, but that doesn't mean the initial version doesn't work. Actually most of the original code still exists.
Back to the original point, this is the example of a >10x engineer (by impact, coding speed, innovation) who conceived, wrote a popular software in days, grew the community, and grew it to the insane popularity today. Only a handful of engineers in the world could ever achieve this kind of things.
I'm going to ignore the personal attack and get right to the point. If you redefine '10X' to involve impact, speed, or innovation, then you're going to invite external factors of chance (popularity, adoption, etc) and the work of others in building the tools the individual engineer uses - albeit perhaps more effectively than others. Further, they did not 'write' a 'popular software' in days - it was an early prototype that took years to gain the momentum it has now, as I was saying. Trying to credit Linus for all of git is very much like trying to say that the author of a book on which a critically acclaimed movie is based is an amazing filmmaker. You simply can't credit single people for the work done by more than one person. Nuclear though they may have been to the work being there, their impact is far less than you would suggest. There are >10X teams and times and there are engineers who fit particular >10X teams and who are more likely to fit others, but there are no lone >10X engineers.
I know that the idea of the 10x engineer is somewhat eyebrow raising, yet in most fields I ever have been in there where those people who would get shit done n times as fast/efficient or throughly as others, all while yielding better results — be it Camera or Light people on the film set, programmers, designers and architects, writers.
The differenciator rarely was the pure skill at the profession, but an ability to mentally plan ahead and maybe even see the final "thing" in their head. So instead of going try and error or just using what worked last time those people tended to be able to see the clear outlines of the whole thing in their head before they do it, which has the benefit of not having to do things you know will not satisfy. Couple that with a willingness to not waste your time and then you get someone who looks magically efficient to people who "just do their job".
In my eyes those people are not inhumanly good, it is just that most other people are quite average both in their skill and in their motivations.
And even if you are average and just do your job you can easily compare against those people by investing persistence and time.
The differenciator rarely was the pure skill at the profession, but an ability to mentally plan ahead and maybe even see the final "thing" in their head. So instead of going try and error or just using what worked last time those people tended to be able to see the clear outlines of the whole thing in their head before they do it, which has the benefit of not having to do things you know will not satisfy. Couple that with a willingness to not waste your time and then you get someone who looks magically efficient to people who "just do their job".
In my eyes those people are not inhumanly good, it is just that most other people are quite average both in their skill and in their motivations.
And even if you are average and just do your job you can easily compare against those people by investing persistence and time.
A 10x engineer writes code, and a lot of it. We can debate the quality, but the 10x part is about concrete output. Political Staff+ engineers live in meetings, documents, presentations, standards, etc. with little if any of their own output.
No it's more like at some organizations the culture is very apathetic and the mean dev there has very low throughput. So you can be "10x" merely by caring to the level a professional should. And ironically in those situations it's the low throughput devs creating all the tech debt, with their copy pasta and infinite one off solutions.
> What you describe sounds more to me like the ""10X engineer""
I think 10X engineer is supposed to imply the average engineer - maybe at the person's level?
We all know there are plenty of engineers who do negative work, and plenty who do almost nothing.
So depending on how you think of it - it might not be that impressive.
I think 10X engineer is supposed to imply the average engineer - maybe at the person's level?
We all know there are plenty of engineers who do negative work, and plenty who do almost nothing.
So depending on how you think of it - it might not be that impressive.
The 10x is a transition from knowing how to solve problems quickly and efficiently, to being burned out because too much of the solving problems quickly and efficiently. Like a bright burning filament bulb lol. OK I'm probably exaggerating but I have encountered this.
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It's easy to get 10x engineer - just hire 9x shitty ones and you're done.
Or maybe they just type faster.
There is also the "positive" version of the politician. They have enough technical credibility, social skills, relationships with senior management, to remove organizational log-jams. Other companies might hire a consultant to come and tell them what they already know they need to do (but can't organizationally agree to do) - but with this archetype, you can call them in and they will cut out the bullshit, somehow without upsetting everyone.
I have found myself in this archetype before. Management wanted a feature, went to the architects and got some INSANE estimate that couldn’t be justified by the revenue that would be coming in. Management felt like they were being told to fuck off with crazy estimates and they weren’t completely wrong.
I was asked to review the proposal by a VP, came up with some simplifications, presented it back to the same architects and we delivered it for 10% of the anticipated cost and the feature was profitable in year 1. It’s had no defects because it was a simple design.
Sometimes you need people who can speak to managers and engineers with credibility to get things done.
I was asked to review the proposal by a VP, came up with some simplifications, presented it back to the same architects and we delivered it for 10% of the anticipated cost and the feature was profitable in year 1. It’s had no defects because it was a simple design.
Sometimes you need people who can speak to managers and engineers with credibility to get things done.
Most people have a very cynical view of politics and I can emphasize. However, I try to stay more positive about it. Politics, for me, is about making decisions in groups too large to just talk with everyone. In such circumstances “bridge people”, like davewritescode, who can communicate with multiple factions are very valuable for progress.
Sadly, especially in large “safe” enterprises people don’t want to learn this. Developers blame managers for “not understanding software” and managers blame developers for “lack of business understanding”.
Sadly, especially in large “safe” enterprises people don’t want to learn this. Developers blame managers for “not understanding software” and managers blame developers for “lack of business understanding”.
I think that description matches the articles "architect" archetype:
> The Architect is responsible for the direction, quality and approach within a critical area, both today and stretching into the multi-year future horizon. They combine a deep knowledge of technical constraints, user needs, and organization level leadership.
The reason I labeled it politician is because they are primarily using their position for self-gain. A general definition for politics is any time the inequality company > team > self is violated (at least in terms of compensated work). I generally agree with that definition. That is why I used the word politician.
> The Architect is responsible for the direction, quality and approach within a critical area, both today and stretching into the multi-year future horizon. They combine a deep knowledge of technical constraints, user needs, and organization level leadership.
The reason I labeled it politician is because they are primarily using their position for self-gain. A general definition for politics is any time the inequality company > team > self is violated (at least in terms of compensated work). I generally agree with that definition. That is why I used the word politician.
Since we're being anecdotal: I think that claim is jaded and angry, and makes me wonder what kinds of companies people have worked at. Honestly, I've only encountered this once or twice, and I've been a career engineer since 1989 at places like IBM, Intel, and Microsoft. Dozens of positions and groups, and I've never had to play politics. Maybe I've just worked at "good" companies (irony noted), but in my experience it was less about politics and more about getting shit done, and if you failed to get shit done, you were alerted to that very quickly. If you did get shit done, and got it done well, you got promoted, and were given even more shit to get done. Upper management at those big three had their game tight.
Politics is in the eye of the beholder I think, and even though toxic politicking at work is definitely real, I suspect a lot of what is accused as "politicking" is just sour grapes for people with poor people skills, and people who refuse to consider soft skills to be a necessary core competency, especially at senior and staff levels.
Take some of my practices for example: I lead and design many projects, and if I know a particular element of my proposal will be controversial for a particular stakeholder, I will schedule a review with them privately before to make sure the solution I'm proposing actually works for them, and also make any needed changes before getting in front of a larger audience. This ultimately just wastes less time for everyone and makes product better.
But for someone cynically inclined I'd be easily accused of some kind of backdoor politicking.
A lot of "politics" is just communication and soft skills.
Take some of my practices for example: I lead and design many projects, and if I know a particular element of my proposal will be controversial for a particular stakeholder, I will schedule a review with them privately before to make sure the solution I'm proposing actually works for them, and also make any needed changes before getting in front of a larger audience. This ultimately just wastes less time for everyone and makes product better.
But for someone cynically inclined I'd be easily accused of some kind of backdoor politicking.
A lot of "politics" is just communication and soft skills.
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Just like there are loads of average developers, there are loads of average companies.
You can get lucky and work at all great companies in your career. Most of us will not have enough jobs in our lives to get a representative sample.
There is also a question of having different standards. Bad companies might just be bad for someone who has access to the top companies, but otherwise great for average workers.
You can get lucky and work at all great companies in your career. Most of us will not have enough jobs in our lives to get a representative sample.
There is also a question of having different standards. Bad companies might just be bad for someone who has access to the top companies, but otherwise great for average workers.
Point taken. My comment is a good example of "tech privilege".
im actually amazed you never ran into politics at work. you never needed to navigate around egos to get what you want, you do every thing purely on merit, every decision is only technical?
my whole career as been filled with stuff like people forcing their pet projects on the company, people hiring their friends and dealing with their in crowd
my whole career as been filled with stuff like people forcing their pet projects on the company, people hiring their friends and dealing with their in crowd
> you do every thing purely on merit, every decision is only technical?
Yeah, honestly. The vast majority of my hard decisions I made were based on schedule and resources: having to kill things or move people around. The only "political" anomaly I witnessed was that it seemed the employees at the Israel Design Center at Intel were getting promoted to principal at a much faster rate, and with much less years and experience, for what didn't seem like actual merit. But that didn't impact me other than some jealousy, because the line for principal promotion in my division(s) were very long with really really smart people. And I've seen many principals get shown the door for poor performance.
One possibility is that I never reached a level where politics mattered, or teams were small enough that it didn't have time to foment. And there certainly people who lived to become managers because they thought it was a status symbol, but I was happy for them to do the job.
Another could be that I'm just... well, daft. Both are possible. :)
Yeah, honestly. The vast majority of my hard decisions I made were based on schedule and resources: having to kill things or move people around. The only "political" anomaly I witnessed was that it seemed the employees at the Israel Design Center at Intel were getting promoted to principal at a much faster rate, and with much less years and experience, for what didn't seem like actual merit. But that didn't impact me other than some jealousy, because the line for principal promotion in my division(s) were very long with really really smart people. And I've seen many principals get shown the door for poor performance.
One possibility is that I never reached a level where politics mattered, or teams were small enough that it didn't have time to foment. And there certainly people who lived to become managers because they thought it was a status symbol, but I was happy for them to do the job.
Another could be that I'm just... well, daft. Both are possible. :)
Is there somewhere I can send a resume? Hah
Politics I’ve seen almost everywhere but nepotism and cronyism are horrible. I’ve experienced that firsthand at a startup, when a new CIO hired his unqualified buddies into leadership roles. One was a young female and he was a much older divorcee and it made my skin crawl.
Intel was overran by MBA types until they got their most recent CEO, and it'll take years for them to undue that rot.
If you worked in a software group at Intel after 2015 and didn't play politics, I straight up don't believe you.
If you worked in a software group at Intel after 2015 and didn't play politics, I straight up don't believe you.
I never worked for a software group at Intel. And I started there in 1989. I'm not out to convince a non-believer like yourself. Just sharing my experience.
EDIT: Intel certainly had a lot of dumb projects over the years, from POTS videoconferencing boxes in the 90's to its attempt at an iMac-like modular cloud server box. But that was largely paranoia pushing them to explore every possible corner.
But again, your experience is not my experience, and I'm not the one telling you that you are lying.
EDIT: Intel certainly had a lot of dumb projects over the years, from POTS videoconferencing boxes in the 90's to its attempt at an iMac-like modular cloud server box. But that was largely paranoia pushing them to explore every possible corner.
But again, your experience is not my experience, and I'm not the one telling you that you are lying.
Most startups today I would imagine fit this bill.
This is almost exclusively what I've encountered in most of the "elite" engineers. It's frustrating because they're the ones saying coding and job hopping is easy. They're the ones in tech interviews who downplay your achievements.
In my experience, rather than leaving for another company though, they're often a C-suite favorite and get to start some new project (often it's whatever they want to do as long as it's remotely justifiable). They get it up to 80% complete so they can hand it off to another team to do the last 20%.
Since the project is whatever they want to do, they use very unusual languages or design choices that the new team has to pick up and fix. A lot of times it's whatever the big new thing is. (For example, expect statements like this: "Everything is obsolete legacy code now that Electron exists!" "No need to keep this standalone offline test database, setup shell scripts, or maintain the environment setup guide because Docker will automatically solve all of these cases!")
They continue getting new projects because these 1 or 2 people "did the project 80% complete in 1 month, and the last 20% is taking the handoff team of five at least 3 months to do."
Bonus points when it is expanded from some sort of hackathon, or some fake story about how some person completed the 80% portion over the weekend. In the former, all the connections and APIs are hard-coded and faked for their demo. In the latter, they had actually been working on this for the past couple months instead of doing their assigned work which made their official team look even less productive.
I was on the teams always picking up the last 20%, but I got moved onto the 80% team once. I was amazed at how much code I could blow through with time to spare when I didn't have to worry about all the edge cases and minute details.
Unfortunately, I got temporarily moved onto a company-wide prod support team which then got cut due to covid. Hooray.
In my experience, rather than leaving for another company though, they're often a C-suite favorite and get to start some new project (often it's whatever they want to do as long as it's remotely justifiable). They get it up to 80% complete so they can hand it off to another team to do the last 20%.
Since the project is whatever they want to do, they use very unusual languages or design choices that the new team has to pick up and fix. A lot of times it's whatever the big new thing is. (For example, expect statements like this: "Everything is obsolete legacy code now that Electron exists!" "No need to keep this standalone offline test database, setup shell scripts, or maintain the environment setup guide because Docker will automatically solve all of these cases!")
They continue getting new projects because these 1 or 2 people "did the project 80% complete in 1 month, and the last 20% is taking the handoff team of five at least 3 months to do."
Bonus points when it is expanded from some sort of hackathon, or some fake story about how some person completed the 80% portion over the weekend. In the former, all the connections and APIs are hard-coded and faked for their demo. In the latter, they had actually been working on this for the past couple months instead of doing their assigned work which made their official team look even less productive.
I was on the teams always picking up the last 20%, but I got moved onto the 80% team once. I was amazed at how much code I could blow through with time to spare when I didn't have to worry about all the edge cases and minute details.
Unfortunately, I got temporarily moved onto a company-wide prod support team which then got cut due to covid. Hooray.
The story reminds me of the so-called 80/20 rule.
> Microsoft noted that by fixing the top 20% of the most-reported bugs, 80% of the related errors and crashes in a given system would be eliminated. Lowell Arthur expressed that "20% of the code has 80% of the errors. Find them, fix them!"
More relevant part:
> It was also discovered that, in general, 80% of a piece of software can be written in 20% of the total allocated time. Conversely, the hardest 20% of the code takes 80% of the time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle#In_computing
It sounds like you were often stuck with the toughest 20% which actually took 80% of the effort. I also heard that of that 20%, there's another level of 80/20, where a further 20% takes 80% of the rest of the effort, and so on.
Anyway, I hope you find a better situation!
> Microsoft noted that by fixing the top 20% of the most-reported bugs, 80% of the related errors and crashes in a given system would be eliminated. Lowell Arthur expressed that "20% of the code has 80% of the errors. Find them, fix them!"
More relevant part:
> It was also discovered that, in general, 80% of a piece of software can be written in 20% of the total allocated time. Conversely, the hardest 20% of the code takes 80% of the time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle#In_computing
It sounds like you were often stuck with the toughest 20% which actually took 80% of the effort. I also heard that of that 20%, there's another level of 80/20, where a further 20% takes 80% of the rest of the effort, and so on.
Anyway, I hope you find a better situation!
Next level politicians do a really broken implementation first cycle so they can deliver a solve next quarter for eye popping data driven results. I've personally warned people about terrible designs, saw them get implemented, they cost the company millions, but then they "improved" it next quarter to save the company "millions" ... They got promoted, I got called names like "too negative"...
Great company.
Great company.
I am guessing most/a lot of us have seen similar situations (unfortunately).
(Sometimes, though situations like that are unavoidable -- given that demos can become product overnight or a deadline is unattainable no matter what you shave off. If I had a nickel for each time I had seen any of the above happen...)
yes there are shortcuts that one takes for a demo, but these were multimonth projects extending existing systems, it's not like the optimal solution was going to take much longer (if at all), we just needed an architect that understood computer science
I think my biggest failing in my career is in being able to convince people that just because they don't understand something doesn't mean it's harder to code. Many O(n^2) solutions take just as long to code as O(n), for example...
I think my biggest failing in my career is in being able to convince people that just because they don't understand something doesn't mean it's harder to code. Many O(n^2) solutions take just as long to code as O(n), for example...
> They lay operational traps everywhere in their quest to get things done fast (like directly embedding config data in code to avoid fixing the config format).
Specific to your example, rather than the sentiment, I think embedding config in code is highly valuable when you don't have a lengthy deployment cycle and have direct access to the source. It gives your compiler more information which can help prevent bad configurations (which are the cause of failures more often than anything else from what I've seen). Developers also have a better shot at feeling how badly configurable a particular component is when the configuration is code. It's much easier to hide the overly-configurable systems under a rug when the configuration is far away from implementation, in a DSL, in a different repository, or only visible at deployment.
Specific to your example, rather than the sentiment, I think embedding config in code is highly valuable when you don't have a lengthy deployment cycle and have direct access to the source. It gives your compiler more information which can help prevent bad configurations (which are the cause of failures more often than anything else from what I've seen). Developers also have a better shot at feeling how badly configurable a particular component is when the configuration is code. It's much easier to hide the overly-configurable systems under a rug when the configuration is far away from implementation, in a DSL, in a different repository, or only visible at deployment.
I agree, configs in code are not a bad thing necessarily if they don't change often or at all. Sprawling config files are a significantly higher challenge to get your bearing with.
I’ve been trying unsuccessfully to get buy in on config as code.
Instead we have property / yaml files, read into anaemic “classes” which do not perform validation themselves. Validation duties are also foisted onto other parts of the system.
Stacked onto that we sometimes have file name based convention for defining a hierarchy of configs, to save on repetition between environments.
Instead we have property / yaml files, read into anaemic “classes” which do not perform validation themselves. Validation duties are also foisted onto other parts of the system.
Stacked onto that we sometimes have file name based convention for defining a hierarchy of configs, to save on repetition between environments.
Config as code is fine as long as it results in a fully realized config that is then consumed by other code. All the big companies have almost certainly done it.
I would make sure when implementing it you have someone who is very opinionated review all configs to ensure that the same behavior is always implemented in the same way until a linter can enforce idioms. I would avoid explicit conditionals and explicit loops, instead relying on implied conditionals and implied loops. I would absolutely not use any "live" data, meaning the code should be relatively pure without any dependencies.
Pystachio is not a bad choice in python land:
https://github.com/wickman/pystachio
I would make sure when implementing it you have someone who is very opinionated review all configs to ensure that the same behavior is always implemented in the same way until a linter can enforce idioms. I would avoid explicit conditionals and explicit loops, instead relying on implied conditionals and implied loops. I would absolutely not use any "live" data, meaning the code should be relatively pure without any dependencies.
Pystachio is not a bad choice in python land:
https://github.com/wickman/pystachio
That was a bit ambiguous and there is a greater "should config be code" debate, which the "yes" people will always win eventually because it's so pragmatic.
Config will always move towards code as systems become more complex and scale up. At some point code-config will have an output intermediary data structure that is consumed by what consumes configs. I don't really have a problem with that.
I am talking about things like querying a database and inserting what would otherwise be a row in the database in the code that does the query itself. So if you need to do debugging, you go do a query against your database and the row isn't there. It sounds absurd, but I have seen it, and caused an outage because of it.
Config will always move towards code as systems become more complex and scale up. At some point code-config will have an output intermediary data structure that is consumed by what consumes configs. I don't really have a problem with that.
I am talking about things like querying a database and inserting what would otherwise be a row in the database in the code that does the query itself. So if you need to do debugging, you go do a query against your database and the row isn't there. It sounds absurd, but I have seen it, and caused an outage because of it.
There are people who are bad at every job.
That doesn’t mean that the people who are hiring people into that role are looking to have someone do it badly. Or that anyone who wants such a role is automatically suspected of having nefarious motives.
These role archetypes are descriptions of realistic, reasonable expectations for high level IC roles. It’s a useful, positive contribution that will help engineering directors and senior coders better negotiate clearly defined roles and responsibilities.
It’s just not constructive to say ‘but yeah, sometimes when you employ someone at this level and you don’t clarify the role or hold them accountable, they do terrible things and it enables charlatans to prosper!’
Sure, of course it does. But this article is a useful and constructive model for helping prevent that from happening.
What you frame as an addition to the article actually represents a cynical undermining of its entire value. I think that’s a sad way to engage.
That doesn’t mean that the people who are hiring people into that role are looking to have someone do it badly. Or that anyone who wants such a role is automatically suspected of having nefarious motives.
These role archetypes are descriptions of realistic, reasonable expectations for high level IC roles. It’s a useful, positive contribution that will help engineering directors and senior coders better negotiate clearly defined roles and responsibilities.
It’s just not constructive to say ‘but yeah, sometimes when you employ someone at this level and you don’t clarify the role or hold them accountable, they do terrible things and it enables charlatans to prosper!’
Sure, of course it does. But this article is a useful and constructive model for helping prevent that from happening.
What you frame as an addition to the article actually represents a cynical undermining of its entire value. I think that’s a sad way to engage.
Their crappy code might be generating millions of dollars in revenue while you fix it and curse their name
True! But it might also grind the company's ability to release features to a halt creating a stagnant stock price and an underwhelming IPO because they chose to avoid the hard work of migrating, refactoring, and simplifying, or setting a culture of maintainable code preferring more easily marketable (and probably more fun and less failure prone) feature work that also looks much better on a resume.
Counterexample: Twitter. Every indication is that the code base was horrible. They found product market fit, got funding and went public.
Amazon codebase was also famously barely held together by duct tape for the first few years
Amazon codebase was also famously barely held together by duct tape for the first few years
I'm not trying to say that you can't incur technical debt if you pay it off. What I am trying to say is that a culture of technical debt stagnates growth.
I would point to twitter as an example of the point I was trying to make, so I don't think it's a very good counter example:
I would point to twitter as an example of the point I was trying to make, so I don't think it's a very good counter example:
11/07/2013 $44.9 117,633,000 $45.1 $50.09 $44
10/06/2022 $49.39 68,511,080 $50.98 $51.55 $49.29 Do you really think it’s because of the software or because of the product? I bet no one has said that if only Twitters software was better it would gain more customers and advertisers.
All indications are that Twitters architecture is now top notch. There are entire sections of “Designing Data Intensive Applications” (the Bible for system design interviews) about Twitters current architecture.
All indications are that Twitters architecture is now top notch. There are entire sections of “Designing Data Intensive Applications” (the Bible for system design interviews) about Twitters current architecture.
I think as systems get more complex and bogged down, it's harder to innovate. As innovation is stifled by build problems, dependency problems, political problems, operational problems, the amount of code you have to read to do anything problems, etc, I think engineers start to say "could I be more productive, and therefore theoretically get more reward, elsewhere?"
I think as soon as the innovators start to jump ship, growth momentum is lost and it's nearly impossible to regain that momentum. Who does interviews? Who sells candidates? What is the marketing? What kind of sense of morale will potential hires perceive?
If a large refactoring project did take place, refactoring projects are generally very high risk and low reward. That is the type of project that most senior devs will avoid like the plague. It is not fun engineering. It is drudgery and toil.
So a history of poor software results in required cleanup/developer pain, which results in high value devs leaving for greener pastures, which results in a perception of high inertia non-growth, which then makes it harder to sell people on the prospect of "high growth" stocks which results in the tanking of average dev quality (and morale for that matter), which then makes it even harder to hire innovative devs or leadership, which ultimately results in stagnation.
Senior leadership, both managerial and technical, will play hot potato until the costs of not addressing the real, highly unpleasant, problems is too high and by then its too late. Things continue to get worse between the start of the effort to fix problems and the actual fix of the problems and a lot of people will choose not to suffer that.
I didn't work at twitter, but I watched this process happen. To me, there is a clear relationship between systemically unaddressed and festering technical debt and ability to innovate with direct personnel consequences.
> I bet no one has said that if only Twitters software was better it would gain more customers and advertisers.
But whats the cost of setting up a new service? Of creating a new interface? Of testing a new feature? Of creating a new payment system, etc. All of these are software problems. How efficient would an organization be if every team had their own repo? If every team had their own monitoring systems? If every team implemented their own release process? If every team re-implemented the same behavior over and over again because higher up leadership couldn't allocate resources to problems that every team has, what effect does that have? That inefficiency is innovation opportunity cost.
Imagine you acquire a company you think can provide an innovation to your own. What is the time/resource cost of integration and what effect do you think dev environment would have on success of the acquisition?
I think technical debt clearly has compounding interest. I think companies get into a position where the debt becomes debilitating particularly through pathological short term thinking. At some point the compounding technical debt exceeds growth and it's over.
I think as soon as the innovators start to jump ship, growth momentum is lost and it's nearly impossible to regain that momentum. Who does interviews? Who sells candidates? What is the marketing? What kind of sense of morale will potential hires perceive?
If a large refactoring project did take place, refactoring projects are generally very high risk and low reward. That is the type of project that most senior devs will avoid like the plague. It is not fun engineering. It is drudgery and toil.
So a history of poor software results in required cleanup/developer pain, which results in high value devs leaving for greener pastures, which results in a perception of high inertia non-growth, which then makes it harder to sell people on the prospect of "high growth" stocks which results in the tanking of average dev quality (and morale for that matter), which then makes it even harder to hire innovative devs or leadership, which ultimately results in stagnation.
Senior leadership, both managerial and technical, will play hot potato until the costs of not addressing the real, highly unpleasant, problems is too high and by then its too late. Things continue to get worse between the start of the effort to fix problems and the actual fix of the problems and a lot of people will choose not to suffer that.
I didn't work at twitter, but I watched this process happen. To me, there is a clear relationship between systemically unaddressed and festering technical debt and ability to innovate with direct personnel consequences.
> I bet no one has said that if only Twitters software was better it would gain more customers and advertisers.
But whats the cost of setting up a new service? Of creating a new interface? Of testing a new feature? Of creating a new payment system, etc. All of these are software problems. How efficient would an organization be if every team had their own repo? If every team had their own monitoring systems? If every team implemented their own release process? If every team re-implemented the same behavior over and over again because higher up leadership couldn't allocate resources to problems that every team has, what effect does that have? That inefficiency is innovation opportunity cost.
Imagine you acquire a company you think can provide an innovation to your own. What is the time/resource cost of integration and what effect do you think dev environment would have on success of the acquisition?
I think technical debt clearly has compounding interest. I think companies get into a position where the debt becomes debilitating particularly through pathological short term thinking. At some point the compounding technical debt exceeds growth and it's over.
If Twitter has a sane architecture and all indications is that it does now, creating a new feature shouldn’t require back end refactoring. You have core shared services and you build another service on top of it. I know how at least one of the newer services work at AWS and how many existing back end existing services it depends on and that if anyone outside of AWS had the resources, they could build it themselves by calling publicly available APIs.
I seriously doubt Twitter is one large monolithic app
And let’s not pretend that Google for instance is any better at product development. It’s failed at everything it’s done not related to advertising - ie Stadia. It’s one success hides a lot of failures.
I seriously doubt Twitter is one large monolithic app
And let’s not pretend that Google for instance is any better at product development. It’s failed at everything it’s done not related to advertising - ie Stadia. It’s one success hides a lot of failures.
https://thenewstack.io/how-airbnb-and-twitter-cut-back-on-mi...
> Originally, Twitter ran their public APIs through a single Ruby-on-Rails application (“Monorail”), which had grown into one of the largest Rails codebases in the world. And so it was increasingly difficult to update. By 2014, Twitter went the route of microservices, migrating the API service to a set of 14 microservices, running on an internal Java Virtual Machine (JVM)-based framework (“Maccaws”).
> “While the microservices approach enabled increased development speeds at first it also resulted in a scattered and disjointed Twitter API,” Cosenza said. Independent teams designed and built endpoints for their specific use cases with little coordination. This led to fragmentation and, inevitably, a slowing of developer productivity.
Microservices don't make a lot of sense to me unless you can print money or have a public infra offering. It points to an engineering org that doesn't know what they are doing. Turning O(N) code complexity (virtual complexity) into O(N) operational complexity ("physical" complexity) points to an org that doesn't understand where their complexity is coming from or how to minimize it.
> creating a new feature shouldn’t require back end refactoring.
The argument I was making is that it doesn't matter if it gets better. Once momentum is stopped by poor architecture, inertia is too high to get moving again.
> I know how at least one of the newer services work at AWS and how many existing back end existing services it depends on and that if anyone outside of AWS had the resources, they could build it themselves by calling publicly available APIs.
Yes they product-ized their services which is absolutely brilliant. I think the fact that amazon can print money plays a very key roll in why they won while other companies lost. They scaled early in the game rather than scaling too late and reaped incredible rewards for doing so.
> And let’s not pretend that Google for instance is any better at product development.
Google is famous for developers "just shuffling protobufs between services." While it's generally said derogatorily, that means that developers are generally not in the weeds and minutiae of what they are trying to accomplish, but are actually working on the higher level concept they are trying to achieve.
> It’s failed at everything it’s done not related to advertising
gsuite, maps, search, adsense, analystics, gcp, youtube, play, android, pixel, chromebook, news, docs, project zero, etc.
I don't agree that failure is the rule. Cutting lackluster offerings rather than pouring investment in them shows at the very least a sane short term strategy with the weakness of potential harm for long term consumer trust. That's a reasonable trade off to make with good arguments for both sides.
> Originally, Twitter ran their public APIs through a single Ruby-on-Rails application (“Monorail”), which had grown into one of the largest Rails codebases in the world. And so it was increasingly difficult to update. By 2014, Twitter went the route of microservices, migrating the API service to a set of 14 microservices, running on an internal Java Virtual Machine (JVM)-based framework (“Maccaws”).
> “While the microservices approach enabled increased development speeds at first it also resulted in a scattered and disjointed Twitter API,” Cosenza said. Independent teams designed and built endpoints for their specific use cases with little coordination. This led to fragmentation and, inevitably, a slowing of developer productivity.
Microservices don't make a lot of sense to me unless you can print money or have a public infra offering. It points to an engineering org that doesn't know what they are doing. Turning O(N) code complexity (virtual complexity) into O(N) operational complexity ("physical" complexity) points to an org that doesn't understand where their complexity is coming from or how to minimize it.
> creating a new feature shouldn’t require back end refactoring.
The argument I was making is that it doesn't matter if it gets better. Once momentum is stopped by poor architecture, inertia is too high to get moving again.
> I know how at least one of the newer services work at AWS and how many existing back end existing services it depends on and that if anyone outside of AWS had the resources, they could build it themselves by calling publicly available APIs.
Yes they product-ized their services which is absolutely brilliant. I think the fact that amazon can print money plays a very key roll in why they won while other companies lost. They scaled early in the game rather than scaling too late and reaped incredible rewards for doing so.
> And let’s not pretend that Google for instance is any better at product development.
Google is famous for developers "just shuffling protobufs between services." While it's generally said derogatorily, that means that developers are generally not in the weeds and minutiae of what they are trying to accomplish, but are actually working on the higher level concept they are trying to achieve.
> It’s failed at everything it’s done not related to advertising
gsuite, maps, search, adsense, analystics, gcp, youtube, play, android, pixel, chromebook, news, docs, project zero, etc.
I don't agree that failure is the rule. Cutting lackluster offerings rather than pouring investment in them shows at the very least a sane short term strategy with the weakness of potential harm for long term consumer trust. That's a reasonable trade off to make with good arguments for both sides.
> Microservices don't make a lot of sense to me unless you can print money or have a public infra offering. It points to an engineering org that doesn't know what they are doing
A little company I’m sure you have heard of may disagree. This was way before AWS was thing and was an edict for Amazon Retail
https://nordicapis.com/the-bezos-api-mandate-amazons-manifes...
Your information about Twitters current architecture is way out of date.
https://thenewstack.io/how-airbnb-and-twitter-cut-back-on-mi...
https://www.quora.com/What-were-the-technical-limits-that-Tw...
> Yes they product-ized their services which is absolutely brilliant. I think the fact that amazon can print money plays a very key roll in why they won while other companies lost. They scaled early in the game rather than scaling too late and reaped incredible rewards for doing so.
That’s not the point. The point is that new internal initiative don’t start from a blank slate at any large tech company. There is already infrastructure in place to build on top of even when that underlying infrastructure isn’t publicly available.
> gsuite, maps, search, adsense, analystics, gcp, youtube, play, android, pixel, chromebook, news, docs, project zero, etc.
- gcp - losing money
- addsense - more ads
- GSuite - a distant second to MS
https://www.saasgenius.com/blog/why-office-365-is-overtaking...
- Android: it came out in the Oracle trial that Google only made $27 Billion in total during the first six years. Google gives Apple 18 billion a year to be the default search engine on iOS. Apple makes more money from Google in mobile than Google makes from Android
- Pixel: depending on who you believe, Google sells 1.2 million phones a quarter. If it were a separate company, it would be an abysmal failure
https://www.engadget.com/google-pixel-q4-2021-best-sales-qua...
That’s about the same number Apple sells in 2 days in a down quarter.
YouTube: while YouTube contributes 10% to Google’s revenue, most think it’s still not profitable once you take into account bandwidth, storage, and revenue share with creators.
Project Zero is not a profitable product - nor was it meant to be.
A little company I’m sure you have heard of may disagree. This was way before AWS was thing and was an edict for Amazon Retail
https://nordicapis.com/the-bezos-api-mandate-amazons-manifes...
Your information about Twitters current architecture is way out of date.
https://thenewstack.io/how-airbnb-and-twitter-cut-back-on-mi...
https://www.quora.com/What-were-the-technical-limits-that-Tw...
> Yes they product-ized their services which is absolutely brilliant. I think the fact that amazon can print money plays a very key roll in why they won while other companies lost. They scaled early in the game rather than scaling too late and reaped incredible rewards for doing so.
That’s not the point. The point is that new internal initiative don’t start from a blank slate at any large tech company. There is already infrastructure in place to build on top of even when that underlying infrastructure isn’t publicly available.
> gsuite, maps, search, adsense, analystics, gcp, youtube, play, android, pixel, chromebook, news, docs, project zero, etc.
- gcp - losing money
- addsense - more ads
- GSuite - a distant second to MS
https://www.saasgenius.com/blog/why-office-365-is-overtaking...
- Android: it came out in the Oracle trial that Google only made $27 Billion in total during the first six years. Google gives Apple 18 billion a year to be the default search engine on iOS. Apple makes more money from Google in mobile than Google makes from Android
- Pixel: depending on who you believe, Google sells 1.2 million phones a quarter. If it were a separate company, it would be an abysmal failure
https://www.engadget.com/google-pixel-q4-2021-best-sales-qua...
That’s about the same number Apple sells in 2 days in a down quarter.
YouTube: while YouTube contributes 10% to Google’s revenue, most think it’s still not profitable once you take into account bandwidth, storage, and revenue share with creators.
Project Zero is not a profitable product - nor was it meant to be.
> This was way before AWS was thing and was an edict for Amazon Retail
Yes, you are telling me the point I was making. Product-izing your microservices is a justification for microservices.
> 5. All service interfaces, without exception, must be designed from the ground up to be externalizable. That is to say, the team must plan and design to be able to expose the interface to developers in the outside world. No exceptions.
That is the property that makes microservices make sense. Without that property, technical leadership is setting themselves up for failure.
> Your information about Twitters current architecture is way out of date.
The only point I was making about twitter architecture, of which I know far too little about, was that as you stated previously "Every indication is that the code base was horrible" leads to loss of momentum and inability to innovate, so it's not surprising their growth stagnated for, what I believe, are primarily technical reasons. It doesn't matter if they got better if they went through a period which stopped momentum.
> That’s not the point. The point is that new internal initiative starts from a blank slate at any large tech company. There is already infrastructure in place to build on top of even when that underlying infrastructure isn’t publicly available.
The point I'm attempting to make is that if underlying infrastructure is poor, that's not a fertile ground to grow new product so innovation becomes stifled because resistance to new functionality is too high. If maintenance costs are too high resources must be spent maintaining rather than innovating. I've seen developers stumble around for a week because they put `30` instead of `10` in a config file. I've watched an entire team waste months of effort because production was not advanced enough for what they wanted to do. I've watched an entire engineering organization lose hours every day to a poor dev environment. Time was spent fighting infrastructure, not creating features, so it's not surprising when new products and features weren't created and growth didn't meet expectations.
> google stuff...
We have different definitions for failure. You said google wasn't able to develop products. Google is clearly able to develop new products/services, maybe not monetarily successful ones, but google as as a company has a disproportionate effect on my life and how my life works past showing me some ads.
Yes, you are telling me the point I was making. Product-izing your microservices is a justification for microservices.
> 5. All service interfaces, without exception, must be designed from the ground up to be externalizable. That is to say, the team must plan and design to be able to expose the interface to developers in the outside world. No exceptions.
That is the property that makes microservices make sense. Without that property, technical leadership is setting themselves up for failure.
> Your information about Twitters current architecture is way out of date.
The only point I was making about twitter architecture, of which I know far too little about, was that as you stated previously "Every indication is that the code base was horrible" leads to loss of momentum and inability to innovate, so it's not surprising their growth stagnated for, what I believe, are primarily technical reasons. It doesn't matter if they got better if they went through a period which stopped momentum.
> That’s not the point. The point is that new internal initiative starts from a blank slate at any large tech company. There is already infrastructure in place to build on top of even when that underlying infrastructure isn’t publicly available.
The point I'm attempting to make is that if underlying infrastructure is poor, that's not a fertile ground to grow new product so innovation becomes stifled because resistance to new functionality is too high. If maintenance costs are too high resources must be spent maintaining rather than innovating. I've seen developers stumble around for a week because they put `30` instead of `10` in a config file. I've watched an entire team waste months of effort because production was not advanced enough for what they wanted to do. I've watched an entire engineering organization lose hours every day to a poor dev environment. Time was spent fighting infrastructure, not creating features, so it's not surprising when new products and features weren't created and growth didn't meet expectations.
> google stuff...
We have different definitions for failure. You said google wasn't able to develop products. Google is clearly able to develop new products/services, maybe not monetarily successful ones, but google as as a company has a disproportionate effect on my life and how my life works past showing me some ads.
> Yes, you are telling me the point I was making. Product-izing your microservices is a justification for microservices.
This was not about Amazon selling its micro services. This was only about AWS Retail developers internally.
> Every indication is that the code base was horrible" leads to loss of momentum and inability to innovate, so it's not surprising their growth stagnated for, what I believe, are primarily technical reasons
This was in the early days. They moved away from the Ruby monolith years ago.
> We have different definitions for failure. You said google wasn't able to develop products. Google is clearly able to develop new products/services, maybe not monetarily successful ones
For a for profit company, the only definition of success is does it make a profit.
Edit: I change my mind slightly. We are talking across each other. From a technical standpoint and being able to get products to market, Google is great. From a business development standpoint/program management standpoint, Google sucks. Google’s saving grace is that it has one great revenue stream.
Maybe if Twitter had better product development capabilities - not computer development, business development, they may have found something that sticks.
I also just don’t think Twitter is as compelling of a product for most people as a Facebook and an Instagram
This was not about Amazon selling its micro services. This was only about AWS Retail developers internally.
> Every indication is that the code base was horrible" leads to loss of momentum and inability to innovate, so it's not surprising their growth stagnated for, what I believe, are primarily technical reasons
This was in the early days. They moved away from the Ruby monolith years ago.
> We have different definitions for failure. You said google wasn't able to develop products. Google is clearly able to develop new products/services, maybe not monetarily successful ones
For a for profit company, the only definition of success is does it make a profit.
Edit: I change my mind slightly. We are talking across each other. From a technical standpoint and being able to get products to market, Google is great. From a business development standpoint/program management standpoint, Google sucks. Google’s saving grace is that it has one great revenue stream.
Maybe if Twitter had better product development capabilities - not computer development, business development, they may have found something that sticks.
I also just don’t think Twitter is as compelling of a product for most people as a Facebook and an Instagram
Yes, Twitter's stock has basically gone nowhere, just like its product. (I'm a TWTR bag holder. Hoping to get a pay out from Musk soon!)
That’s a great technical example. How many times have you encountered an engineer who wraps up their tool’s interface and exposes its functionality through a YAML config file when really it should have just been left as a programmatic interface?
The hubris of the engineer is in believing they’ve thought of everything anyone could ever want to do with their tool. Imagine if a shell only let you set your PATH via a static config file filled with strings. It’s probably fine 99% of the time but at some point someone somewhere is going to start programmatically building paths.yaml. Yuck.
The hubris of the engineer is in believing they’ve thought of everything anyone could ever want to do with their tool. Imagine if a shell only let you set your PATH via a static config file filled with strings. It’s probably fine 99% of the time but at some point someone somewhere is going to start programmatically building paths.yaml. Yuck.
This describes the “enterprise architects” at my company. They read a few white papers, make nice PowerPoints, send the work to some offshoring company. The systems produced either don’t work or have serious problems but in the meantime they have already moved into another project and leave cleaning up the mess to other people.
I'm not sure if I'd name them "the politician", because I think they are not doing the harm consciously, but I've met several of them. Pair it with the "CV builder" ,that just throws new technologies at problems to add them to their CVs, and now your codebase is a minefield.
I'd wager the "product manager" equivalent of this is even more widespread. They constantly disallow tech debt sprints or work to happen, in order to get that nifty new feature out the door quickly in and will tackle the cut corners and tech debt "later, after MVP" or somesuch nonsense.
Then by the time that debt must be paid, they're off to another team|org|project.
I've seen it way too many times.
Then by the time that debt must be paid, they're off to another team|org|project.
I've seen it way too many times.
How does that work exactly? I can absolutely commit an unmaintainable mess directly to master, but I’d be very quickly called out by my team.
Very large portions of some very major companies have <4 years work experience. Couple that with incredibly large engineer to management ratios and that inexperienced devs are often placed under more experienced ones, and the ability to call out unmaintainable code starts to diminish.
A lot of these prolific devs will not see the code base complexity for the "tragedy of the commons" it is, and bemoan the people and teams who start to try adding "regulations" (meetings/code review) to protect the common because it slows down their ability to meet their management given goals.
There is also a magic phrase that frequently disarms attempts to prevent bad code from entering a code base "this is just temporary." It's easy to put off fixing the "temporary" code forever as other things become higher priority.
Often times someone will inherit a staff engineer's code and therefore won't have been able to stop it. Sometimes staff engineers are able to create an entire service with minimal review that is then "gifted" to a team to refine and maintain.
In a lot of these situations, the feedback mechanisms (yearly peer review) will limit who can give feedback about who, not to mention they are not anonymous and staff engineers are usually highly connected.
A lot of these prolific devs will not see the code base complexity for the "tragedy of the commons" it is, and bemoan the people and teams who start to try adding "regulations" (meetings/code review) to protect the common because it slows down their ability to meet their management given goals.
There is also a magic phrase that frequently disarms attempts to prevent bad code from entering a code base "this is just temporary." It's easy to put off fixing the "temporary" code forever as other things become higher priority.
Often times someone will inherit a staff engineer's code and therefore won't have been able to stop it. Sometimes staff engineers are able to create an entire service with minimal review that is then "gifted" to a team to refine and maintain.
In a lot of these situations, the feedback mechanisms (yearly peer review) will limit who can give feedback about who, not to mention they are not anonymous and staff engineers are usually highly connected.
It works because management is bought into the politician's bullshit. So if another team member tries to call it out, then the manager labels the other team member as "hard to work with" (https://lethain.com/hard-to-work-with/) instead of holding the politician accountable.
Easy - you rope other engineers in to work on the implementation. Then if it works out you claim the credit, if not either scrap the project due to “change of direction/reprioritization” or throw them under the bus.
The politician is totally a thing at large FAANG companies!
It took a while for people to figure out their BS and when it's finally unearthed, two years has passed and they are ready to move on to another team or company and repeat the cycle.
Sometimes they even get a promo before their rube goldberg machinery is finished and someone else had to take the fall.
It took a while for people to figure out their BS and when it's finally unearthed, two years has passed and they are ready to move on to another team or company and repeat the cycle.
Sometimes they even get a promo before their rube goldberg machinery is finished and someone else had to take the fall.
You have to be a politician at a tech companies. Your promo docs depend on it. How can you show “scope” or “cross team impact” without some amount of politicking?
Example: Dennis Nedry
Prior experience: Solution architect at Jurassic Park. Present: Dinosaur food
Prior experience: Solution architect at Jurassic Park. Present: Dinosaur food
This is 100% accurate. In fact, I think I've met a couple during my career.
What is the difference between code and config, other than one is well-typed?
Config could be put into a database and queried while code doesn't have a sensical database representation.
Even when config is code (which is almost guaranteed to happen as a config requiring system is developed), at some point in the process there is a representation that could be meaningfully stored in a columnar database before it's consumption.
Code is generally considered stateless, asking for an input and providing an output that is determined only by the code and the input. Embedding state inside of code is generally a pretty grievous sin, although some places are vastly more sinful than others.
Even when config is code (which is almost guaranteed to happen as a config requiring system is developed), at some point in the process there is a representation that could be meaningfully stored in a columnar database before it's consumption.
Code is generally considered stateless, asking for an input and providing an output that is determined only by the code and the input. Embedding state inside of code is generally a pretty grievous sin, although some places are vastly more sinful than others.
Archetypes are useful in how you sell yourself. Don't forget that it's not what you are, just how you sell yourself.
You can change between these every review cycle, job, career, all you want - no one in management is keeping track of your "archetype". They are keeping track of your impact.
Lastly, you are the "person in the box" once you are senior enough. Take the archetypes, look at your org, and see which they need. Whatever is missing will be the most value to the org. How you see yourself accomplishing that box is the real challenge of executives, not this endless "what color parachute are you" self evaluation.
You can change between these every review cycle, job, career, all you want - no one in management is keeping track of your "archetype". They are keeping track of your impact.
Lastly, you are the "person in the box" once you are senior enough. Take the archetypes, look at your org, and see which they need. Whatever is missing will be the most value to the org. How you see yourself accomplishing that box is the real challenge of executives, not this endless "what color parachute are you" self evaluation.
A little meta commentary: I'm seeing a lot of negative takes using the word "they" (so presumably these are from people who either haven't worked in a staff eng capacity, or have, but in dysfunctional organizations).
The intent of this article (as I understand it) was to help people navigate the emerging nebulous role that "staff engineer" was, particularly as it started to become a more mainstream concept a few years ago (whereas prior to it, the dichotomy was largely that senior was "the" terminal IC role and you had to transition to management past that).
Many engineers on the upper side of the senior spectrum have clearly been operating above and beyond what is typically considered senior level, but not in the capacity of a typical manager archetype, so this was meant to help people understand how to identify/categorize these people as well as help people understand what kinds of challenges to look at after you've become a "full-fledged" senior engineer. Resources are useful, whodathunkit.
My advice for those eyeing for a staff+ level would be to avoid making "hot take" categories, everyone can do that and if they're coming from a position of inexperience w/ the subject matter, there's a good chance it's a bad take. Instead, try to derive action items from each of the archetypes, and incorporate those into your work. A good point I heard is that no staff engineer qualifies as a single archetype exclusively; the role is usually a mix of all archetypes, with different people leaning more strongly one way vs another.
It's very easy to make sour comments like "oh staff people just spend all their time in meetings, what good are they for". It's quite another to be that staff engineer and have to balance technical depth acquisition, alignment among disparate groups and the multiplexing required to operate at high levels at both. It's easy to chalk it up to politics, but it's quite another to be able to visualize power structures as tools, and use them as such to accomplish large scale engineering goals. There are classes of engineering challenges that only really arise at the staff+ engineer level, and engaging with them can be rewarding in their own right.
The intent of this article (as I understand it) was to help people navigate the emerging nebulous role that "staff engineer" was, particularly as it started to become a more mainstream concept a few years ago (whereas prior to it, the dichotomy was largely that senior was "the" terminal IC role and you had to transition to management past that).
Many engineers on the upper side of the senior spectrum have clearly been operating above and beyond what is typically considered senior level, but not in the capacity of a typical manager archetype, so this was meant to help people understand how to identify/categorize these people as well as help people understand what kinds of challenges to look at after you've become a "full-fledged" senior engineer. Resources are useful, whodathunkit.
My advice for those eyeing for a staff+ level would be to avoid making "hot take" categories, everyone can do that and if they're coming from a position of inexperience w/ the subject matter, there's a good chance it's a bad take. Instead, try to derive action items from each of the archetypes, and incorporate those into your work. A good point I heard is that no staff engineer qualifies as a single archetype exclusively; the role is usually a mix of all archetypes, with different people leaning more strongly one way vs another.
It's very easy to make sour comments like "oh staff people just spend all their time in meetings, what good are they for". It's quite another to be that staff engineer and have to balance technical depth acquisition, alignment among disparate groups and the multiplexing required to operate at high levels at both. It's easy to chalk it up to politics, but it's quite another to be able to visualize power structures as tools, and use them as such to accomplish large scale engineering goals. There are classes of engineering challenges that only really arise at the staff+ engineer level, and engaging with them can be rewarding in their own right.
One that I think might be missing is The Therapist:
They are the glue that gets buy-in and agreement between people talking past each other. They demonstrate how a healthy organization can lead a team by setting guidelines for collaboration, communicating, being constructive, and removing barriers or silos between key stakeholders. They can resolve disagreements and unblock political stalemates with their unilateral authority and uncanny conflict resolution skills.
They are the glue that gets buy-in and agreement between people talking past each other. They demonstrate how a healthy organization can lead a team by setting guidelines for collaboration, communicating, being constructive, and removing barriers or silos between key stakeholders. They can resolve disagreements and unblock political stalemates with their unilateral authority and uncanny conflict resolution skills.
> They are the glue that gets buy-in and agreement between people talking past each other. They demonstrate how a healthy organization can lead a team by setting guidelines for collaboration, communicating, being constructive, and removing barriers or silos between key stakeholders.
That's a management function.
If I took a Staff Engineer role and my job was to compensate for organizational dysfunction and fill voids left by underperforming managers, I'd be leaving that role very quickly. Either that or requesting a formal title change (or promotion) into an actual management position.
Hiring a Staff Engineer when you really need better managers isn't a good solution, especially because a Staff Engineer wouldn't have the necessary org structure authority to be an effective manager-of-managers.
That's a management function.
If I took a Staff Engineer role and my job was to compensate for organizational dysfunction and fill voids left by underperforming managers, I'd be leaving that role very quickly. Either that or requesting a formal title change (or promotion) into an actual management position.
Hiring a Staff Engineer when you really need better managers isn't a good solution, especially because a Staff Engineer wouldn't have the necessary org structure authority to be an effective manager-of-managers.
> If I took a Staff Engineer role and my job was to compensate for organizational dysfunction and fill voids left by underperforming managers, I'd be leaving that role very quickly. Either that or requesting a formal title change (or promotion) into an actual management position.
Eh. You might not fit it, but I really like that role. I don't want to be out of technical conversations and I don't love reports, but I do really like facilitating a path forward. At the moment I'm working outside of an engineering function, but I do it when wearing that hat, too.
> a Staff Engineer wouldn't have the necessary org structure authority to be an effective manager-of-managers
If that were the job, then yes. It is a soft-power role, though, not a hard-power structural role.
Limited authority absolutely can be a problem, but usually due to intransigence, at which point the hard-power elements of the org (who are typically limited in their available attention span) can be escalated to.
Eh. You might not fit it, but I really like that role. I don't want to be out of technical conversations and I don't love reports, but I do really like facilitating a path forward. At the moment I'm working outside of an engineering function, but I do it when wearing that hat, too.
> a Staff Engineer wouldn't have the necessary org structure authority to be an effective manager-of-managers
If that were the job, then yes. It is a soft-power role, though, not a hard-power structural role.
Limited authority absolutely can be a problem, but usually due to intransigence, at which point the hard-power elements of the org (who are typically limited in their available attention span) can be escalated to.
> Eh. You might not fit it, but I really like that role. I don't want to be out of technical conversations and I don't love reports, but I do really like facilitating a path forward.
I'm not suggesting that the role isn't helpful or that some people wouldn't like it.
This is the problem:
> At the moment I'm working outside of an engineering function,
If the company needs a firefighting cross-team manager, get a firefighting cross-team manager and empower them accordingly.
But hiring Staff Engineers to combat management dysfunction is a misunderstanding of the Staff Engineer role.
I'm not suggesting that the role isn't helpful or that some people wouldn't like it.
This is the problem:
> At the moment I'm working outside of an engineering function,
If the company needs a firefighting cross-team manager, get a firefighting cross-team manager and empower them accordingly.
But hiring Staff Engineers to combat management dysfunction is a misunderstanding of the Staff Engineer role.
> I, on the other hand, really like that role. I don't want to be out of technical conversations and I don't love reports, but I do really like facilitating a path forward. At the moment I'm working outside of an engineering function, but I do it when wearing that hat, too.
iirc this kind of role, and other glue are actually really great Scrum Master && Project Manager skills.
iirc this kind of role, and other glue are actually really great Scrum Master && Project Manager skills.
You probably don't hire a project manager to also occasionally buckle down and write code, though. ;) Supersets, not subsets.
Depends on the role of management in the company. At some companies there is a bright line where managers are expected to _not_ participate directly in the technical discussion of how to solve problems.
So say, in such an organization, two teams each with a Staff Engineer are taking different and conflicting approaches, and neither Staff has been able to pursuade the other to their side? Often in this scenario it's extremely valuable to have a technically capable third-party mediator to help bring the two together.
So say, in such an organization, two teams each with a Staff Engineer are taking different and conflicting approaches, and neither Staff has been able to pursuade the other to their side? Often in this scenario it's extremely valuable to have a technically capable third-party mediator to help bring the two together.
A stalemate between staff engineers isn't a technical problem.
Sounds like the bright line is the problem.
Sounds like the bright line is the problem.
> > They are the glue that gets buy-in and agreement between people talking past each other.
> That's a management function.
Not at a technical level it's not. If there are honest disagreements about technical direction, you need a strong technical voice and vision to break the logjam. That's not a management problem, although it certainly requires excellent soft skills (requisite for any good Staff+).
It takes both the soft skills and the technical knowledge to get consensus, or at the very least, consent.
> That's a management function.
Not at a technical level it's not. If there are honest disagreements about technical direction, you need a strong technical voice and vision to break the logjam. That's not a management problem, although it certainly requires excellent soft skills (requisite for any good Staff+).
It takes both the soft skills and the technical knowledge to get consensus, or at the very least, consent.
A people manager isn't the person to build consensus between teams (necessarily). With complex technical problems, designs and discussions, it's the people with deep technical expertise and good communications skills who will play this role. At my previous employer, these were called "technical architects" but whatever you call them, they are not usually in the "manage other people" role.
I'm pretty sure this was me when I was at that level of engineering seniority, but the reality was that it was a frustrating position to be in, because you're operating outside the expectations of an engineering role. I was in Eng for 13 years, and now I'm a PM, so take that for what you will. This role aligns strongly with what a good technical PM does.
I certainly think that role is missing, but I don't think it's at a role of a staff engineer. In my experience, _The Therapist_ has the ear of a lot of senior people, and more importantly their trust. They understand the technical issues as well as the business problems, but more importantly understand the personalities and politics of the organization. These are the people who can convince people that if they give up a little, then they can get a lot in return. They generally tame strong-arm managers that are just looking for more headcount or more prominent projects that tend to drown out other projects or initiatives that are genuinely needed.
Those people are an absolute necessity, and I think it's very tough for someone to be effective in that role if they don't have a solid technical understanding, but I also don't think that an engineer has the clout to wrangle people the way a _therapist_ needs to. In a small organization, maybe, but at a decent size, mid-sized company and larger it will need to be someone working on the business side, not development or IT operations
Those people are an absolute necessity, and I think it's very tough for someone to be effective in that role if they don't have a solid technical understanding, but I also don't think that an engineer has the clout to wrangle people the way a _therapist_ needs to. In a small organization, maybe, but at a decent size, mid-sized company and larger it will need to be someone working on the business side, not development or IT operations
I've never seen a Therapist Staff Engineer. This seems to be the primary function of middle management.
Agree this is a key skill and necessary archetype in large orgs.
But I'd call this person The Wolf (named after the Harvey Keitel's character in Pulp Fiction.
But I'd call this person The Wolf (named after the Harvey Keitel's character in Pulp Fiction.
> But I'd call this person The Wolf
Does this person get to ride off into the sunset in a fancy sports car, with the babe from the junkyard?
Does this person get to ride off into the sunset in a fancy sports car, with the babe from the junkyard?
I've seen the Wolf in a few companies and they are given some special treatment for sure. The corporate equivalent of the babe and the sports car.
Years ago, one of them had a Macbook Pro while the rest of us were dealing with garbage Dell laptops that barely worked due to aggressive security scanners. He got his turned off by IT.
Years ago, one of them had a Macbook Pro while the rest of us were dealing with garbage Dell laptops that barely worked due to aggressive security scanners. He got his turned off by IT.
Wat? The Wolf was a classic solver. Also see Mike from BB/BCS series
A lot of small and medium companies don't really know what to do with Staff Engineers. Not knowing what else to do, they default to something like the "Right Hand" archetype in this document, where they're reporting to someone important but lacking in any direct authority or accountability of their own.
These positions can be very comfortable if the person isn't directly responsible for anything, but they can use their leadership-adjacent position to come in and take credit for successes on anything they touch. I worked at one particularly miserable company where the CEO's "Right Hand" engineer would be dispatched any time a project was running behind schedule. Lo and behold, the work would be delivered slightly after the deadline by the slightly behind schedule team, but the credit for the "turnaround" went to the CEO's "Right Hand".
These positions can also be awful if the company puts unreasonable expectations on the Staff Engineer but doesn't actually give them the authority to execute. If you've been tasked with delivering a large initiative but you haven't been given any employees to do it with, your only option is to influence other teams to work on it with you. When it comes down to it, people are going to work on things for the person who determines their raises and performance reviews, not a floating Staff Engineer who needs people to help them.
This is why "Team Lead" and maybe "Solver" are the only two of these archetypes that are sustainable for a company, IMO. Letting Staff Engineers sort of float around in the company and spread their knowledge sounds good in theory, but in practice you need to carefully assign them into the org structure like everyone else.
These positions can be very comfortable if the person isn't directly responsible for anything, but they can use their leadership-adjacent position to come in and take credit for successes on anything they touch. I worked at one particularly miserable company where the CEO's "Right Hand" engineer would be dispatched any time a project was running behind schedule. Lo and behold, the work would be delivered slightly after the deadline by the slightly behind schedule team, but the credit for the "turnaround" went to the CEO's "Right Hand".
These positions can also be awful if the company puts unreasonable expectations on the Staff Engineer but doesn't actually give them the authority to execute. If you've been tasked with delivering a large initiative but you haven't been given any employees to do it with, your only option is to influence other teams to work on it with you. When it comes down to it, people are going to work on things for the person who determines their raises and performance reviews, not a floating Staff Engineer who needs people to help them.
This is why "Team Lead" and maybe "Solver" are the only two of these archetypes that are sustainable for a company, IMO. Letting Staff Engineers sort of float around in the company and spread their knowledge sounds good in theory, but in practice you need to carefully assign them into the org structure like everyone else.
I am a Team Lead and I have mixed feelings about it, some for reasons you give here.
My manager handles the overhead of having reports, which is large at my company. But people only work toward my goals if my manager motivates them to, and most of his mental energy goes towards a separate fiefdom of his, not my team. And I have never had any control whatsoever over who is on my team - except in a couple serendipitous situations, where I made much better choices than the ones that were made for me.
Overall I feel forced to work with entrenched incompetence and semi-competence, but at least I am rewarded fairly well for doing well in spite of this.
My manager handles the overhead of having reports, which is large at my company. But people only work toward my goals if my manager motivates them to, and most of his mental energy goes towards a separate fiefdom of his, not my team. And I have never had any control whatsoever over who is on my team - except in a couple serendipitous situations, where I made much better choices than the ones that were made for me.
Overall I feel forced to work with entrenched incompetence and semi-competence, but at least I am rewarded fairly well for doing well in spite of this.
the fetishization of staff engineers is really fascinating. do they actually act as "force multipliers", are they really essential to the success of large engineering orgs? In my experience, they spend most of their time in meetings not doing much of anything at all.
Are these terms and names all about "marketing"? Yes of course, people have doing the tasks described without being asked for it, but being able to have a salary run above "senior", as well as terms allowing you as a develop to play the bigger game of corporate environments, is tremendously helpful.
As a senior engineer, or just "software engineer", you can be a brilliant architect, but if noone sees that outside your immediate team, and the only way for you to get bigger impact is to become a manager, with no time for actual code, then your impact will be minimal.
Positioning yourself as staff engineer, and selling yourself as "architect oriented staff engineer" to the different managers and leads whose buy-in you need to do cross-team architecture, is a force decoupler for you as a technical person.
I'm a fundamentally technical/code monkey person, I love writing and shipping code. But I'm in a position right now where, in order to get my technical goals accomplished, most of my work is managerial. Once I was able to frame things that way (I could write code all day long, and never would I be able to achieve X, but if I play the game of calling myself principal engineer and leveraging that "marketing brand", then I actually can), all the remnants of apprehension I had kind of fell away.
As a senior engineer, or just "software engineer", you can be a brilliant architect, but if noone sees that outside your immediate team, and the only way for you to get bigger impact is to become a manager, with no time for actual code, then your impact will be minimal.
Positioning yourself as staff engineer, and selling yourself as "architect oriented staff engineer" to the different managers and leads whose buy-in you need to do cross-team architecture, is a force decoupler for you as a technical person.
I'm a fundamentally technical/code monkey person, I love writing and shipping code. But I'm in a position right now where, in order to get my technical goals accomplished, most of my work is managerial. Once I was able to frame things that way (I could write code all day long, and never would I be able to achieve X, but if I play the game of calling myself principal engineer and leveraging that "marketing brand", then I actually can), all the remnants of apprehension I had kind of fell away.
> they spend most of their time in meetings not doing much of anything at all
This is largely dependent on the company in my experience. I've been a Staff at one company where I had to actively protest meetings. I would get in trouble for not showing up. I had to point out several times that 1-2 hours a day of non-meetings was not enough to be effective no matter what level a person is at.
At other (typically smaller) companies, I do feel like Staff engineers can really have a multiplying effect. Based on the OP, I personally fell into "The Solver" category and would bounce around helping out teams who were stuck on something particularly troublesome.
> are they really essential to the success of large engineering orgs
I don't about know this one. In a large org, I was at my most ineffective. I do think they are essential to small-to-mid sized engineering orgs though, even if it only means they help out by knowing all the ways *NOT* to do something.
This is largely dependent on the company in my experience. I've been a Staff at one company where I had to actively protest meetings. I would get in trouble for not showing up. I had to point out several times that 1-2 hours a day of non-meetings was not enough to be effective no matter what level a person is at.
At other (typically smaller) companies, I do feel like Staff engineers can really have a multiplying effect. Based on the OP, I personally fell into "The Solver" category and would bounce around helping out teams who were stuck on something particularly troublesome.
> are they really essential to the success of large engineering orgs
I don't about know this one. In a large org, I was at my most ineffective. I do think they are essential to small-to-mid sized engineering orgs though, even if it only means they help out by knowing all the ways *NOT* to do something.
At smaller companies titles really don’t mean anything. Often it’s just the person who lasted the longest or what a new employee negotiated
Speaking only for myself, I'm the one they ask when there's a problem no one else on the regular team can solve, and I don't have someone technical "above" me to ask for help. I can only collaborate with people and drive the investigation and communicate the results. So that's sort of the Solver/SRE role. I don't know how to calculate "force multiple" for that scenario because in the absence of me solving it, the teams would basically limp along without a solution without fully understanding the negative impact.
I'm also the one that sets certain best practices in code repositories, and I've learned that identifying a best practice and assigning it to someone else to introduce doesn't work very well. At those times I have to dive into the code, restructure things, and then present, so that the other coders can actually refer to it as an example. This in addition to helping team members know what is in-bounds and out-of-bounds for their story, and helping with code reviews. This is roughly the "tech lead" role. This has some sort of force-multiplier impact just by doing things like guiding the metaphorical ships away from the metaphorical icebergs.
Finally, there's the classic "architecture" role, where we identify tech paths for the org in general. Recognizing when a well-targeted effort can replace an inefficiency with something smoother. Like I had to take it upon myself to set up elasticsearch and kibana correctly, and structuring the code to report the correct dimensions. Or structuring how our graphql queries worked so they didn't pound our graphql server. Or placing an in-memory cache on one layer of servers (this basically saved our launch). That's also stuff where it's hard to calculate "force multiplier".
So I dunno. I'm talking about an eng organization of 50-100 people, so maybe that's not big enough to be valid for your question. But the point is that while the role is necessary and is a "multiplier", it's difficult to calculate because it's not as simple as just being 5x or 10x faster than another developer for a well-defined task.
I'm also the one that sets certain best practices in code repositories, and I've learned that identifying a best practice and assigning it to someone else to introduce doesn't work very well. At those times I have to dive into the code, restructure things, and then present, so that the other coders can actually refer to it as an example. This in addition to helping team members know what is in-bounds and out-of-bounds for their story, and helping with code reviews. This is roughly the "tech lead" role. This has some sort of force-multiplier impact just by doing things like guiding the metaphorical ships away from the metaphorical icebergs.
Finally, there's the classic "architecture" role, where we identify tech paths for the org in general. Recognizing when a well-targeted effort can replace an inefficiency with something smoother. Like I had to take it upon myself to set up elasticsearch and kibana correctly, and structuring the code to report the correct dimensions. Or structuring how our graphql queries worked so they didn't pound our graphql server. Or placing an in-memory cache on one layer of servers (this basically saved our launch). That's also stuff where it's hard to calculate "force multiplier".
So I dunno. I'm talking about an eng organization of 50-100 people, so maybe that's not big enough to be valid for your question. But the point is that while the role is necessary and is a "multiplier", it's difficult to calculate because it's not as simple as just being 5x or 10x faster than another developer for a well-defined task.
I can't recall "staff engineer" being something people even talked about before ~2 years ago. It's strange to see this idea come up and become taken seriously, seemingly out of nowhere.
> It's strange to see this idea come up and become taken seriously, seemingly out of nowhere.
Nonsense it's as old as the tech industry, and the defence industry it grew out of.
The name comes from the military, where it's even older.
Nonsense it's as old as the tech industry, and the defence industry it grew out of.
The name comes from the military, where it's even older.
The term may well be as old as the tech industry, but I have somehow spent all 30-odd years of my career in said industry without hearing it discussed, until somewhat recently. I wonder what has changed.
I don't think of the tech industry I have been working in as being related to defense much at all - I trace my computing roots back to the home computer era of the '80s. Perhaps there have been parallel streams which are now mixing.
On the other hand I have never cared about titles, so perhaps it's been there all along and I just didn't notice.
I don't think of the tech industry I have been working in as being related to defense much at all - I trace my computing roots back to the home computer era of the '80s. Perhaps there have been parallel streams which are now mixing.
On the other hand I have never cared about titles, so perhaps it's been there all along and I just didn't notice.
Yeah. A few years ago the zeitgeist was "principal engineers" and then it turned into "staff engineers" and then "staff+".
As the GP said these titles have existed for a long time. But for whatever reason there's also been a progression in terms of them being super common in social media discussions.
The cynic in me says that it is driven by a certain subset of Internet Famous Devs progressing through their career.
As the GP said these titles have existed for a long time. But for whatever reason there's also been a progression in terms of them being super common in social media discussions.
The cynic in me says that it is driven by a certain subset of Internet Famous Devs progressing through their career.
> without hearing it discussed, until somewhat recently
Maybe you’re now reaching that level yourself so now interacting with those people?
Like saying ‘how come nobody’s ever discussed prostrate exams until I got to my 40s’.
> I don't think of the tech industry I have been working in as being related to defense much at all
Microprocessors come from defence, as does Silicon Valley.
Maybe you’re now reaching that level yourself so now interacting with those people?
Like saying ‘how come nobody’s ever discussed prostrate exams until I got to my 40s’.
> I don't think of the tech industry I have been working in as being related to defense much at all
Microprocessors come from defence, as does Silicon Valley.
Yeah, I've been a software engineer since 1996, the first ten years in the defense industry and I never heard the title before a few years ago.
The defense industry is a mammoth thing. Not everyone is going to see all of it, but "staff engineers" have been a thing in the military for like 150 years now. The staff descriptor just means they're specialists in some technical field like civil engineering or medicine that provide guidance and solve problems. The modern tech definition hasn't drifted very far.
We should rename all the accountants "staff" though.
We should rename all the accountants "staff" though.
> Nonsense it's as old as the tech industry, and the defence industry it grew out of.
I was curious about this, because I also think of the staff engineer as a newish thing, and I don't believe I've ever actually met one.
I searched my old email for the term and found that the first reference I have was in January 1996, in a HotWired HotFlash newsletter:
"Java - so-named because it evokes liveliness and speed - is the brainchild of Arthur van Hoff, a senior staff engineer at Sun Microsystems. He's the HotJava engineering lead, has designed most of the Java applet API, is the implementor of the current Java compiler, and is the author of the book "Hooked on Java." Get the scoop behind the hype, when Arthur van Hoff joins us in Club Wired on Friday, 12 January, at 12 p.m. PST (20:00 GMT)."
After that there's really nothing until the term starts appearing in LinkedIn notifications around 2010. I guess that just means it wasn't used in the circles I moved in, so only became visible to me when I joined LinkedIn.
I was curious about this, because I also think of the staff engineer as a newish thing, and I don't believe I've ever actually met one.
I searched my old email for the term and found that the first reference I have was in January 1996, in a HotWired HotFlash newsletter:
"Java - so-named because it evokes liveliness and speed - is the brainchild of Arthur van Hoff, a senior staff engineer at Sun Microsystems. He's the HotJava engineering lead, has designed most of the Java applet API, is the implementor of the current Java compiler, and is the author of the book "Hooked on Java." Get the scoop behind the hype, when Arthur van Hoff joins us in Club Wired on Friday, 12 January, at 12 p.m. PST (20:00 GMT)."
After that there's really nothing until the term starts appearing in LinkedIn notifications around 2010. I guess that just means it wasn't used in the circles I moved in, so only became visible to me when I joined LinkedIn.
AMD and Intel and old semiconductor companies have always had titles like - "Engineer 1" "Engineer 2" "Senior Engineer" and then -> "Member of Technical Staff" above that. (Search MTS, SMTS, PMTS etc. on LinkedIn to see a million of them)
What were influential engineers called in the companies you were in before?
Member of Technical Staff, or MTS
So that’s exactly the same thing just a slightly different wording?
The cynical view is that this role used to be called “senior engineer”. However due to title inflation, it needed rebranding, and “staff” is the new name.
I'd agree. Also, "architects" have also been rebranded as "staff" or "principal" engineers at some companies. (The cynical view is this because nobody architects a system with "agile", they just do what works for now and fix it in the next sprint.)
I think that's also because the past divide of "architects" and implementers (often in outsourcing settings where the architecting is done on-shore), is recognized to not work well.
From my experience job descriptions/title that lean into "architect" tend to attract people that can theorize about how software ought to be built all day, but haven't written a single line of code in ages.
From my experience job descriptions/title that lean into "architect" tend to attract people that can theorize about how software ought to be built all day, but haven't written a single line of code in ages.
Also see “devops engineer”
Take the top 10% of engineers in your organization. They are the ones where the technical buck stops, the ones with the deepest technical and business domain expertise, the ones that define and drive the hiring process, the ones that drive changes that impact many teams, the ones that set the cultural tone for the rest of the engineers.
It doesn't matter what you call them, they've always been there and always will be. Unless your engineering org is not run by engineers, in which case, you should join a company that has staff engineers :)
It doesn't matter what you call them, they've always been there and always will be. Unless your engineering org is not run by engineers, in which case, you should join a company that has staff engineers :)
I think only the Solver type from the article acts as a force multiplier. Have a strange bug that you have been trying and failing to solve for a few days? They will probably fix that in a few hours and unblock you immediately.
Solvers don't fix the problem. They tell you how to fix the problem. :)
That's how they make sure the problem stays fixed.
That's how they make sure the problem stays fixed.
they should be able to do both. In case a high severity issue is ongoing, and someone knows how to fix it very fast - they should probably do it. Or guide another engineer in realtime on how to do it.
If it's not that urgent, they might guide others in a more asynchronous fashion on how to get to a fix
If it's not that urgent, they might guide others in a more asynchronous fashion on how to get to a fix
They most certainly can do both, and do. But as a solver, I prefer to give it back to the person to solve.
1. I may know enough to know the problem and the rough fix. I may not know how to fix it in their codebase as quickly as they do.
2. See above. I want them to internalize the fix.
That said, I ain't afraid to dive in and get it done. I remember not understanding some Java build system somewhere. So I fixed the code, tested it quickly, and hand deployed the jar... then I asked how to fix it for real ;)
My boss was amused.
1. I may know enough to know the problem and the rough fix. I may not know how to fix it in their codebase as quickly as they do.
2. See above. I want them to internalize the fix.
That said, I ain't afraid to dive in and get it done. I remember not understanding some Java build system somewhere. So I fixed the code, tested it quickly, and hand deployed the jar... then I asked how to fix it for real ;)
My boss was amused.
Lake Woebegone Effect. They like to think that they're force multipliers too.
Second this, also stemming from this tend to fall behind technically speaking on the “bleeding edge”
These archetypes seem like they should have different job titles except for maybe Solver. Additionally, what differentiates a Staff Engineer who's a Team Lead archetype from someone that's a TeamLead?
Overloading the Staff Engineer title with these archetypes is going to lead to identity confusion in the job hunting landscape.
If you're searching for Staff Engineer positions by title, now you need to figure out if your personal archetype matches what they're looking for. You might be able to get it from the posting, but maybe not.
This also confuses salary bands. You might have some really effective management type Staff Engineers making loads of cash because they're management, but someone who's just a Solver might be on the far lower end of pay because they aren't management. These examples might be reversed if the Solver is able to solve really hard technical problems.
Overloading the Staff Engineer title with these archetypes is going to lead to identity confusion in the job hunting landscape.
If you're searching for Staff Engineer positions by title, now you need to figure out if your personal archetype matches what they're looking for. You might be able to get it from the posting, but maybe not.
This also confuses salary bands. You might have some really effective management type Staff Engineers making loads of cash because they're management, but someone who's just a Solver might be on the far lower end of pay because they aren't management. These examples might be reversed if the Solver is able to solve really hard technical problems.
Salary is always going to be confused world. People can often earn more as a graduate than a senior by moving to another company or country. Within an org it is hard to measure everyone's true contribution. People's salaries may reflect the job market when they joined. So someone who joined recently gets paid more for a more junior position than someone who has been at the company for years. The company needs to keep salaries secret to avoid people getting annoyed at this! Companies are now also completing for staff not only with other companies, but with investors! If someone is capable, they could go off and start their own thing too. They are also competing with FU money that people have built up. The desire to control this with titles and bands makes me laugh. Obviously big companies need to do this though.
This post is a draft version of the released version at [0].
[0]: https://staffeng.com/guides/staff-archetypes
[0]: https://staffeng.com/guides/staff-archetypes
I feel like the released version is a little better too. E.g. has the calendar graphics.
I wasn't familiar with the term "Staff Engineer", and wikipedia was no help. I found this:
https://careerkarma.com/blog/how-to-become-a-staff-engineer/
...which seems to be saying that a "staff" engineer is indistinguishable from what I'd call a senior developer.
As far as I'm concerned, "staff" is people that are permanently and directly employed. It doesn't mean "senior". If it's found it's way into the cycle of job-title inflation, that makes me sad.
https://careerkarma.com/blog/how-to-become-a-staff-engineer/
...which seems to be saying that a "staff" engineer is indistinguishable from what I'd call a senior developer.
As far as I'm concerned, "staff" is people that are permanently and directly employed. It doesn't mean "senior". If it's found it's way into the cycle of job-title inflation, that makes me sad.
“Staff” has been a regular title for SV software companies for quite a while now.
It is basically the next level past “senior”. Whereas a senior will normally report to a line manager, staff engineers will often report to a middle manager and have managers as their peers.
A normal range for a senior is 5-10 years of experience (but still many people will have more experience than that but not be “senior” depending on company), whereas staff is 10+ years. Obviously these are not wholly sufficient conditions but they’re common buckets, especially for external hiring.
There is some title inflation going on where staff engineers are typically acting more as tech/team leads as opposed to senior engineers. IMO it’s a good title because “principal” has connotations of doing really big-picture stuff that may involve some resting on laurels. Also the bar for “principal” varies widely across companies - at Microsoft it’s the same as “Staff” at other places, at some places it’s like the top <1% of IC engineers, others are probably even more lax than MS.
It is basically the next level past “senior”. Whereas a senior will normally report to a line manager, staff engineers will often report to a middle manager and have managers as their peers.
A normal range for a senior is 5-10 years of experience (but still many people will have more experience than that but not be “senior” depending on company), whereas staff is 10+ years. Obviously these are not wholly sufficient conditions but they’re common buckets, especially for external hiring.
There is some title inflation going on where staff engineers are typically acting more as tech/team leads as opposed to senior engineers. IMO it’s a good title because “principal” has connotations of doing really big-picture stuff that may involve some resting on laurels. Also the bar for “principal” varies widely across companies - at Microsoft it’s the same as “Staff” at other places, at some places it’s like the top <1% of IC engineers, others are probably even more lax than MS.
Thanks for explaining!
The last time I was involved with job-title hierarchies (a long time ago), nobody was a programmer, everyone was an analyst. The people who did telephone support were called support analysts. I graduated to senior sales support analyst (roughly, doing random free work for the prospect, to close a sale).
We assumed we were superior to "engineers": they were the guys that swapped-out hard disks and cards, twiddled the fuses to do performance upgrades, and lifted heavy boxes. We were better-paid. I think of them in boiler-suits, but actually they wore business suits like me. I liked the engineers.
[Edit: I guess maybe the difference might have been that we (analysts) had degrees, and they didn't - they got lots of training on the hardware. The attitude "we" had was obviously degree snobbery. I say "we", because the engineers were regarded rather as I would regard a gas-fitter, by just about everyone.]
The last time I was involved with job-title hierarchies (a long time ago), nobody was a programmer, everyone was an analyst. The people who did telephone support were called support analysts. I graduated to senior sales support analyst (roughly, doing random free work for the prospect, to close a sale).
We assumed we were superior to "engineers": they were the guys that swapped-out hard disks and cards, twiddled the fuses to do performance upgrades, and lifted heavy boxes. We were better-paid. I think of them in boiler-suits, but actually they wore business suits like me. I liked the engineers.
[Edit: I guess maybe the difference might have been that we (analysts) had degrees, and they didn't - they got lots of training on the hardware. The attitude "we" had was obviously degree snobbery. I say "we", because the engineers were regarded rather as I would regard a gas-fitter, by just about everyone.]
It is kind of the opposite now, at least in the US/SV. Programmers are “Software Engineers” and many programming-adjacent roles like support are given titles like “Product Support Engineer”
Personally I think Software Engineer is a better descriptor of what we do than Programmer/Analyst, though of course not everybody with the title is actually engineering systems.
Personally I think Software Engineer is a better descriptor of what we do than Programmer/Analyst, though of course not everybody with the title is actually engineering systems.
Well, I never pretended to be an engineer; if bridge-builders did engineering the way software is built, news about a new bridge collapses would become boring.
I call myself a programmer, or sometimes a "software developer". But even the latter term is fishy, to me; it has connotations of "research and development", as if there's something blue-sky and innovative about building a commercial website.
Incidentally, my dad counselled me to NOT go into programming as a trade[0]. I ignored his advice, and I did OK.
[0] Yes, I consider myself a tradesman, not a "professional". Professions are trades that are policed by a professional body; there are professional bodies for programmers, but hardly any programmers belong to those bodies, and if you list your membership on your CV, it'll probably reduce your chance of getting an interview.
I call myself a programmer, or sometimes a "software developer". But even the latter term is fishy, to me; it has connotations of "research and development", as if there's something blue-sky and innovative about building a commercial website.
Incidentally, my dad counselled me to NOT go into programming as a trade[0]. I ignored his advice, and I did OK.
[0] Yes, I consider myself a tradesman, not a "professional". Professions are trades that are policed by a professional body; there are professional bodies for programmers, but hardly any programmers belong to those bodies, and if you list your membership on your CV, it'll probably reduce your chance of getting an interview.
> I guess maybe the difference might have been that we (analysts) had degrees, and they didn't
Interesting nomenclature given that in many countries you can't even call yourself an engineer without an accredited degree and being licensed by the proper regulator.
Interesting nomenclature given that in many countries you can't even call yourself an engineer without an accredited degree and being licensed by the proper regulator.
Does that apply to "Software Engineers" in Silicon Valley?
No. The US does not generally require "engineers" to be accredited and certified, but there are some exceptions, like particularly civil engineers.
In "classical" corporations, the term "Staff" could be prepended to "Engineer," or "Scientist."
They generally denote a management-level seniority, and they can be given staff, department head status, and a discretionary budget.
They generally denote a management-level seniority, and they can be given staff, department head status, and a discretionary budget.
For a description of the other type of Staff Engineer, see this post that was on HN a few months ago:
https://earthly.dev/blog/line-staff/
So from my experience that link is describing what I've known as a Tech or Team Lead. But the link introduces another title, "Principle Engineer", that I've not encountered.
> Right Hands often dive into a fire, edit the approach, and delegate execution to the most appropriate team, and then pop over to the next fire elsewhere in the organization.
> The Solver and Right Hand bounce from fire to fire, often having more transactional interactions with the folks they’re working with on any given week.
It's worth noting that Ben Purgason from LinkedIn, identified Firefighters as stage 1 and beyond throughout his article on the five stages of SRE:
> At this early stage, SRE is essentially fighting fires whenever the need arises while simultaneously trying to automate the process of fire suppression. With each piece of reliable automation written, the time saved on fire suppression is freed up for use on permanently fixing problems or for forward-looking priorities such as monitoring and alerting.
https://www.usenix.org/system/files/login/articles/login_win...
My observation has been that problems arise when you have roles that clearly default to firefighting without the larger organizational recognition that this is a signal that the default mode need to evolve or improve continuously. That is, that the stages beyond stage 1 (firefighting) that involve developing the roles, teams, tools, and ops in concert with one another are latent and need to scale with the organization, products, services, and customers.
> The Solver and Right Hand bounce from fire to fire, often having more transactional interactions with the folks they’re working with on any given week.
It's worth noting that Ben Purgason from LinkedIn, identified Firefighters as stage 1 and beyond throughout his article on the five stages of SRE:
> At this early stage, SRE is essentially fighting fires whenever the need arises while simultaneously trying to automate the process of fire suppression. With each piece of reliable automation written, the time saved on fire suppression is freed up for use on permanently fixing problems or for forward-looking priorities such as monitoring and alerting.
https://www.usenix.org/system/files/login/articles/login_win...
My observation has been that problems arise when you have roles that clearly default to firefighting without the larger organizational recognition that this is a signal that the default mode need to evolve or improve continuously. That is, that the stages beyond stage 1 (firefighting) that involve developing the roles, teams, tools, and ops in concert with one another are latent and need to scale with the organization, products, services, and customers.
"Firefighting" is being used in two different contexts here. In the SRE document, it means literal incident response, while in the Staff Eng context, it means "addressing whatever the organizational P0 is", which may occasionally be a literal incident, but it may also be developing an incident response team, or lending a hand to a project that is behind schedule, or...whatever.
There's always something that is highest priority, and having a floating person(s) who can continually identify and provide support for whatever that thing is isn't a sign of a dysfunctional organization.
There's always something that is highest priority, and having a floating person(s) who can continually identify and provide support for whatever that thing is isn't a sign of a dysfunctional organization.
> "Firefighting" is being used in two different contexts here. In the SRE document, it means literal incident response, while in the Staff Eng context, it means "addressing whatever the organizational P0 is", which may occasionally be a literal incident, but it may also be developing an incident response team, or lending a hand to a project that is behind schedule, or...whatever.
Good point. That's right.
> There's always something that is highest priority, and having a floating person(s) who can continually identify and provide support for whatever that thing is isn't a sign of a dysfunctional organization.
Yes, I do think that "floating" is an appropriate term here. I've also seen "consulting engineer" used in this context within large multinational organizations.
However, I would point out that too much floating may be a sign of diminishing returns on matrix management.
Good point. That's right.
> There's always something that is highest priority, and having a floating person(s) who can continually identify and provide support for whatever that thing is isn't a sign of a dysfunctional organization.
Yes, I do think that "floating" is an appropriate term here. I've also seen "consulting engineer" used in this context within large multinational organizations.
However, I would point out that too much floating may be a sign of diminishing returns on matrix management.
The 10x developer isn't someone who crushes 10 times as many tickets, or works 10 times as fast, they're someone who makes a large number of people marginally better while their peers focus soley on their individual contribution. It's both surprisingly easy to accomplish and sadly under recognized (or even actively discouraged)
Avoid all these other types except Solver (we call it Fixer at FB). Anyone who calls themselves these things is weird, and will be hard to rely on.
Disregard levels. Disregard titles. Fix what needs to be fixed. Unit tests, CI, docs, there's no such thing as grunt work. Real leadership happens in the IDE and only code matters - everything else is overhead.
Disregard levels. Disregard titles. Fix what needs to be fixed. Unit tests, CI, docs, there's no such thing as grunt work. Real leadership happens in the IDE and only code matters - everything else is overhead.
Only code matters is a weird take. Even excluding sales, marketing, strategy and other functions,
just within Engineering, having people who unblock other people,
deal with cross cutting concerns, make sure the new starter in them team doesn’t leave because everyone else was too busy to help them, etc. are critical.
Your IDE thing probably only applies to a 3 person startup where one or two of them are coding.
I agree with you: fix what needs to be fixed. But that can be human things too, not just code.
Your IDE thing probably only applies to a 3 person startup where one or two of them are coding.
I agree with you: fix what needs to be fixed. But that can be human things too, not just code.
It really doesn’t apply then. At that stage knowing what to write and finding product market fit is far more important.
And not using Kubernetes…
And not using Kubernetes…
Is it technically ironic how often that the "antisocial coder" who revels in their maladjustment wants to then give their opinions about how organizations of people ought to structure themselves??
>Real leadership happens in the IDE
lolwut?
Do people actually believe these kinds of things? Like what comprehensive leadership happens solely in an IDE?
> there's no such thing as grunt work
It sounds like this messaging for people who are on a career track that will never not be grunt work. And even if the goal was to lead someone into being the best code grunt possible, how do you lead them to that point through only the code?
lolwut?
Do people actually believe these kinds of things? Like what comprehensive leadership happens solely in an IDE?
> there's no such thing as grunt work
It sounds like this messaging for people who are on a career track that will never not be grunt work. And even if the goal was to lead someone into being the best code grunt possible, how do you lead them to that point through only the code?
> Do people actually believe these kinds of things?
Most don't, no. But you'll definitely find a higher percentage of people who do at places like FB.
Most don't, no. But you'll definitely find a higher percentage of people who do at places like FB.
Tell me you've never functioned as a Staff Engineer without telling me...
More seriously, please listen to what every other prominent staff+ engineer here, in blogs, on Twitter, even within FB, etc. has to say about the job. There are a great many takes, but by far the most common thread is that the most important part of the role is almost never about code. Many complain about not having time/energy to code any more. The whole point of having this as a role/title is to give leverage to those who have proven they can use it for the good of the organization. That means maximizing the ratio of effect to code written, by themselves or anyone else, and there are a great many ways to do that. "Code is all" is the hallmark of the very junior engineer who hasn't finished climbing that first rung yet - a very important rung, yes, but still only one of many. TBH it comes across as something between sour grapes and Tall Poppy Syndrome.
More seriously, please listen to what every other prominent staff+ engineer here, in blogs, on Twitter, even within FB, etc. has to say about the job. There are a great many takes, but by far the most common thread is that the most important part of the role is almost never about code. Many complain about not having time/energy to code any more. The whole point of having this as a role/title is to give leverage to those who have proven they can use it for the good of the organization. That means maximizing the ratio of effect to code written, by themselves or anyone else, and there are a great many ways to do that. "Code is all" is the hallmark of the very junior engineer who hasn't finished climbing that first rung yet - a very important rung, yes, but still only one of many. TBH it comes across as something between sour grapes and Tall Poppy Syndrome.
Code is a liability, but it's very often the least-bad option. In particular it's severely underrated as a communication mechanism; all too often people go through weeks of planning and discussion to save hours of prototyping.
In my last staff engineer role I spent more time writing "design specs" (which were rarely looked at) and doing code reviews than I did doing actual coding. Also way too many meetings. I found it pretty draining mentally.
To be fair you won’t have time to do a lot of code. I would even doubt code reviews. If you’re setting up initiatives that cross several organizations - the most critical aspect is getting down features, interfaces and guarantees down. Define ways to measure these and get out of the way. If you’re too deep in the weeds you could end up causing more damage and delays. See if you can get out of day to day meetings and find an interesting project to work on, hopefully as open source if your company powers that be agree. But with your title you will have an easier time getting that through.
> Anyone who calls themselves these things is weird, and will be hard to rely on.
Providing technical leadership is weird and makes people hard to rely on?
Providing technical leadership is weird and makes people hard to rely on?
We’re talking about organizations where there are thousands of people all writing code.
The tricky part is making all that code add up to something meaningful, though, right?
A thousand developers diligently and efficiently working away in their IDEs building completely the wrong thing is a terrible waste, and not something that can be solved by just having a staff+ ‘fixer’ come along behind and clean up.
The tricky part is making all that code add up to something meaningful, though, right?
A thousand developers diligently and efficiently working away in their IDEs building completely the wrong thing is a terrible waste, and not something that can be solved by just having a staff+ ‘fixer’ come along behind and clean up.
I consider myself a 'Solver'/'Fixer', mainly because that's the title others gave me, and I mostly disagree with this.
Specifically the problem with me is I don't have deep expertise in any area. This is fine in most cases but there are areas where expertise is important. And more often than not titles and levels are a reasonably proxy for expertise in a large organization. Turns out asking "who's the expert in X" really, really doesn't work once you disregard titles and levels. Disregarding titles and levels is a good way to turn engineering into a popularity contest so "who's the expert in X" becomes "who do I know best who recently said something like X to me"
Specifically the problem with me is I don't have deep expertise in any area. This is fine in most cases but there are areas where expertise is important. And more often than not titles and levels are a reasonably proxy for expertise in a large organization. Turns out asking "who's the expert in X" really, really doesn't work once you disregard titles and levels. Disregarding titles and levels is a good way to turn engineering into a popularity contest so "who's the expert in X" becomes "who do I know best who recently said something like X to me"
> Disregard levels. Disregard titles.
Tell that to the person writing my paychecks.
Tell that to the person writing my paychecks.
You can’t disregard levels at large organizations if you care about your compensation. The behaviors you are referring to are “mid level behaviors” according to most guidelines.
Coding ability only affects the leveling guideline between junior and mid. Everything else is about “scope”, “impact”, “managing ambiguity” and in the case of Google “writing a messenger app”
Of course these are the official guidelines.
Coding ability only affects the leveling guideline between junior and mid. Everything else is about “scope”, “impact”, “managing ambiguity” and in the case of Google “writing a messenger app”
Of course these are the official guidelines.
I agree that code is what matters, but whats your take on writing code vs influencing people who write code? Seems to be a trade off, but it seems to me that eventually you can't write code as fast as you can influence other people who write code...
Or worse, other programmers are destroying the value of your code faster than you can create it because the underlying vision and principles beyond your chosen abstractions is not clearly communicated.
Oh no, managers in technical teams are usually doing their jobs not because it's fun and exciting but there's no other people who is willing to do those "grunt works" around people. Real leadership happens in the team, not code; code is just a (rather inaccurate) reflection of organization and business. It's correct that it's important to keep it close to the reality, but that's done by people and teams.
They exist to point out that there isn't only one way to define someone as staff engineer. If you don't write them out, then companies degrade into only allowing one type of archetype to get promoted, which discounts other ways of doing things, leading to a less efficient company. You see it at google in 2018: https://mtlynch.io/why-i-quit-google/ and today with the LPA (Launch, Promote, Abandon) cycle : https://nextbigwhat.com/the-lpa-cycle-at-google-launch-promo...
What do people complain about at FB that they can't seem to get done there that seems really obvious that you should? You'll find similar issues. Maybe not like google, but unique to FB.
What do people complain about at FB that they can't seem to get done there that seems really obvious that you should? You'll find similar issues. Maybe not like google, but unique to FB.
That’s old school FB. Is it still like that?
Only that pure code also doesn't matter if it's either not needed required at all due to different business/customers requirements or if problems could be solved easier with a different and easier to maintain set of code if system architecture and interaction between teams would change.
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I've always been a solver since I have a talent/curiosity for solving problems. I've learned that you can't always be that though especially if your organization/group values feature development. Therefore there is a balance between jumping on a problem and jumping right back to what you were doing in terms of sprint stories and development work. I've been in a group where solving high priority issues was valued at like 10% and feature work was 90% and that was a bad experience learning that hard fact late.
only code matters is a stretch but generally agree. If you can fix whatever shit is thrown at you, you have my ultimate respect
I think the FB slogan is “code wins arguments” which is slightly different.
AFAICT, the author nowhere advises anyone to call themselves by the archetype names, nor do I have reason to think that it was their intent for the reader to do so.
> only code matters
Code is just an implementation detail that solves a business problem. I can't disagree more with this take.
Code is just an implementation detail that solves a business problem. I can't disagree more with this take.
And that's how you end up with 10 teams competing to build 10 different platforms to solve the same problem.
Unit tests, CI, docs this overhead, I want move fast and break things.
Code Wins Arguments
> Code Wins Arguments
Unless the arguments are about "how to do the code correctly" for some value of correct that's imagined to be beneficial in the future.
Unless the arguments are about "how to do the code correctly" for some value of correct that's imagined to be beneficial in the future.
Shit these days I consider writing code the failure-state that happens when I'm too dumb or inexperienced to figure out how to avoid writing code.
Given a choice between telling most of my former CTOs/Directors at smaller companies
a: we can write code to do $x undifferentiated heavy lifting
B: can we throw money at a third party to solve $x
The answer is almost always B:
The question is always will writing this code give us a competitive advantage/help us go to market faster/impress the VCs to give us more money.
Or
“Does it make the beer taste better?”
I’m just as proud of the code that I had sense enough not to write as I am the code that I did write.
a: we can write code to do $x undifferentiated heavy lifting
B: can we throw money at a third party to solve $x
The answer is almost always B:
The question is always will writing this code give us a competitive advantage/help us go to market faster/impress the VCs to give us more money.
Or
“Does it make the beer taste better?”
I’m just as proud of the code that I had sense enough not to write as I am the code that I did write.
Has anyone read Tanya Reilly's new book "The Staff Engineer's Path"? Wondering if there's overlap in the concepts/model.
I got it and skimmed through it, I can't answer your question but can definitely recommend the book
The "pattern coder", applies design patterns the all parts of his code without really understanding why. His trust in authorities such as people that give tech talks are the only reason needed to why his coding style is good. This person often ends up with very slow code that no one can modify or debug because his hello world function uses 200 sub-functions spread over 400 files. A common speech pattern of this archetype is "This is how you write stable/mantainable code".
Edit: Just noticed it's only about "staff"-engineers. I wondered why there were only 4. However, i think the "solver" isnt part of the staff either.
Edit: Just noticed it's only about "staff"-engineers. I wondered why there were only 4. However, i think the "solver" isnt part of the staff either.
>archetypes
Staff archetypes is a meme. Here's an archetype for you: gets whatever needs to get done done. The idea of an archetype is harmful, it limits what people do and can become an excuse to not do hard grindy work.
EDIT: On a second read, I guess you do end up doing one of those things for an extended period of time. But my point still stands: don't box yourself in
Staff archetypes is a meme. Here's an archetype for you: gets whatever needs to get done done. The idea of an archetype is harmful, it limits what people do and can become an excuse to not do hard grindy work.
EDIT: On a second read, I guess you do end up doing one of those things for an extended period of time. But my point still stands: don't box yourself in
Ok but a lot of people’s thinking is memetic. I’ve literally sat in performance review meetings where this article has been thrown around. Ignoring what management wants you to do even if it’s straight up cargo cultism probably wont get you very far
Are staff engineers needed? The role seems like a relatively new invention. Senior and midlevel IC engineers do the heavy lifting, principals set strategy and define architecture, EMs manage engineers, PMs manage product. I'm not clear on what the role of the staff engineer is and why it's needed.
>principals set strategy and define architecture,
staff is sometimes used on road to principal, in some firms there are no principals but just staff, etc.
i think _generally_ the industry is doing swe, sr swe, staff, sr staff, principal
sometimes there is no sr staff, sometimes there is no staff and just principal, sr principal...
staff is sometimes used on road to principal, in some firms there are no principals but just staff, etc.
i think _generally_ the industry is doing swe, sr swe, staff, sr staff, principal
sometimes there is no sr staff, sometimes there is no staff and just principal, sr principal...
In VFX and animation production there is a "firefighter" position similar to the Staff Engineer: a senior level developer unassigned to a specific project, able to float as needed and provide support and solutions for other projects that need spot senior level support. At some studios this role goes to sr. and lead developers whose projects are canceled/halted until they can be reassigned. At others, it's like a mini-sabbatical for sr level technical staff that would otherwise leave, but the company does not want them to leave.
A big function of Staff engineers is working across teams. Cross-team communication and alignment is difficult.
It's interesting to have pulled out the "Right Hand" archetype. Too often this distinction is ignored and everyone tries to align to the senior executive.
All the other archetypes can be independent, as in the company can pay them to do their mission even if the executive is not engaged.
I suspect it is time we stopped seeing companies as lead by an executive as the tip of a spear and more as a crowd with an agreed direction.
Edit: I would also suggest that Staff Engineer is the next step on what I would call Software Literate Companies - it's not that we need execs who are not day to day technical supported by people who are. It's that we need execs who are day to day technical and not have ones who cannot code.
All the other archetypes can be independent, as in the company can pay them to do their mission even if the executive is not engaged.
I suspect it is time we stopped seeing companies as lead by an executive as the tip of a spear and more as a crowd with an agreed direction.
Edit: I would also suggest that Staff Engineer is the next step on what I would call Software Literate Companies - it's not that we need execs who are not day to day technical supported by people who are. It's that we need execs who are day to day technical and not have ones who cannot code.
Although this is a generalisation of overall population in few buckets, it helps people understand what it is really.
You can assume different archetypes at different times. That's the best thing about being staff. The staff engineer is a clear leadership role with expectation to perform each of these archetypes at varying degrees. The person might prefer to be one of these archetypes but doesn't shy away to pick up others if the situation demands. Of course, they and people in their vicinity would want to play their strengths.
You can assume different archetypes at different times. That's the best thing about being staff. The staff engineer is a clear leadership role with expectation to perform each of these archetypes at varying degrees. The person might prefer to be one of these archetypes but doesn't shy away to pick up others if the situation demands. Of course, they and people in their vicinity would want to play their strengths.
I'd add "The Gardener". The gardener just wants to tend to things, taking thankless cleanup work and iterating away on it. Ops, metrics, tech debt, ACLs, pruning dead code, etc.
Some people just like to organize and clean things up.
Some people just like to organize and clean things up.
Yes and no.
I have been asked if staff engineers are around so that they can pick up projects noone wants to do. This entirely defeats the point of staff engineers.
I would want my staff engineering bunch to either pave the path or mentor the teams to do it themselves. Making it easier for the teams and future engineers could be a better strategy and effective multiplier.
If there is organisational mission critical software lacking any of this then it is a p0 and I would count it under high impact work rather than gardening. Besides depending on company size, some of those responsibilities should belong to platform teams.
I have been asked if staff engineers are around so that they can pick up projects noone wants to do. This entirely defeats the point of staff engineers.
I would want my staff engineering bunch to either pave the path or mentor the teams to do it themselves. Making it easier for the teams and future engineers could be a better strategy and effective multiplier.
If there is organisational mission critical software lacking any of this then it is a p0 and I would count it under high impact work rather than gardening. Besides depending on company size, some of those responsibilities should belong to platform teams.
Most orgs would not consider this staff-level work. Doesn't mean you shouldn't get your hands dirty every once in a while and it could even be helpful for "dogfooding" purposes but if that's all you ever do that's not Staff.
This was a great read. I think there may be a 5th archetype for individuals who help enable others with “glue” work. This work can easily go unnoticed, but can have a dramatic impact on individual and team productivity.
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The Solver archetype and mindset if often overlooked and unrewarded in large organizations where staff level engineers are expected to be bogged down either with "strategic" work, or other high level bureaucratic shenanigans. If you're a "solver", the trick is to meticulously gather metrics about the impact of your work, and always put them front and center when you communicate about what you've achieved.
Mozilla had some interesting archetypes. I only recall two because I didn't work there, but they were Wizard and True Believer. They all seemed to be more apt archetypes than standard job progression ladders because they allowed for more diversity than just 'manager' and 'technical' paths. I applaud the attempts even if they do seem a tad cringy.
other possible types:
0) the wizened emeritus engineers staffed with special 'futures' or 'next-gen' bluesky type projects
1) engineers who may not be overly technical anymore but are really good at negotiating the organizational hierarchy and might know where and how to poke and pull at the cybernetic organism to nudge it in a desired direction
0) the wizened emeritus engineers staffed with special 'futures' or 'next-gen' bluesky type projects
1) engineers who may not be overly technical anymore but are really good at negotiating the organizational hierarchy and might know where and how to poke and pull at the cybernetic organism to nudge it in a desired direction
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It's only the other month that I actually realised having these as distinct roles - team lead, architect - has completely fallen out of fashion.
Team lead seems pretty common still. But architect ya… kinda a bad word heh.
Dedicated team lead is becoming more rare. Teams like to do per-project "leads" (where most of the time it's a single-person thread of work). This is commonly justified by "velocity" and bus-factor concerns. I am personally very skeptical of this fashion trend...
Which really does explain a lot about what's wrong with the current state of art :)
I straddle the line between Team Lead and Solver - but even just reading the descriptions there is a lot of overlap.
I'm pretty sure I've worn both the Team Lead, Architect, and Solver hats at the same time.
At small companies you will, and you might still be just plainly titled "Software Engineer".
Principal Software Engineer, but yeah.
Is there an archetype for programmer who does their damn job instead of bloviating at how elite they are because they read a few Martin Fowler or management books, or is it hard to spin that into a narrative worth high six figures?
I think you’re missing the point. It’s not about eliteness as much as role. If you can imagine a difference between a edge manager, a director, and a ceo, then you should be able to imagine differences between mid, senior, and staff engineers.
Having these distinctions help clarify exceptions from both consumers of the employees work and aspirers who want to do a certain type of role or not.
Having these distinctions help clarify exceptions from both consumers of the employees work and aspirers who want to do a certain type of role or not.
"Teacher" is one that's missing IMO.
What about the archetype Staff Software Engineer who’s good at creating a promo packet but not good at much else? They come into an org, replace some open source / well-documented well-built tool with an undocumented poorly working tool, then they convince other org members to use this new tool as they actively disable or undermine the existing tool. Come promo time they now have a line in their promo packet “built new tool, drove adoption of said tool to 80%”. At the last company I worked it seemed like a good many of the staff engineers were like this, though may be just the symptoms of a company with braindrain.
Archetypes sharkitypes whatever…who cares! Identify a need in your organization and step up to meet/exceed that need. Done. Don’t need fancy titles, archetypes.
Wow! Why the downvotes?
HN can be weird on up/down-votes. Certainly when u put out a different opinion. Anyway. I would say, archetypes exist and they dont exist by choice. They are a natural occurrence. People do certain things in a certain way. And patterns can be found across these people. These patterns we call archetypes. People dont act to be like a certain archetype, the archetype is the label we give them based on how they act.
Needs a 2020 tag
Great, putting people in buckets/boxes. Never helpful.
The Right Hand is NSFW