On the psychology of “tech money”(chelseatroy.com)
chelseatroy.com
On the psychology of “tech money”
https://chelseatroy.com/2022/11/25/on-the-psychology-of-tech-money/
64 comments
When I first moved to SF and got “tech money” I had a group of friends and we would frequently go out, someone would order some ridiculous bottle of wine or something and it was understood that we’d all just split the tab, or occasionally even play credit card roulette just for fun. It was young people being loose with their new money, no real harm being done.
My girlfriend though, was also in this group and did NOT have “tech money”. Anytime she went out without me it became an issue, because she would order herself an app and a drink while everyone else ordered champagne and caviar and then have to sheepishly request that the group itemize the bill at the end.
No real point to my story I guess. Just a memory.
My girlfriend though, was also in this group and did NOT have “tech money”. Anytime she went out without me it became an issue, because she would order herself an app and a drink while everyone else ordered champagne and caviar and then have to sheepishly request that the group itemize the bill at the end.
No real point to my story I guess. Just a memory.
How did it affect the relationship?
They were always nice about it but it was also always a stark reminder that my gf was not really a full member of "the group"
We're married with kids now and that group has all gone off in their own directions, so no real harm done.
We're married with kids now and that group has all gone off in their own directions, so no real harm done.
One time, this person was taken out for a recruiting coffee by a lunatic, who, hours after being rejected, texted to ask for the coffee money back. Instead of capturing that text message and enshrining it in the Twitter dunk hall of fame, where I'm reasonably sure it would have found a comfortable home, this person instead built the interaction into their psyche, to the point where they're uncomfortable picking up the bar tab because they're worried their peers will think they're going to come back on that tab years later, like Don Corleone.
Eh? Apple and orange I think. They're uncomfortable picking up the tab for group-peers (not income-peers) because it's uncomfortable for everyone involved. The coffee guy was just a bit nutty, sounds like, and not really related to the rest of the blog.
I think they are just uncomfortable in general. If you wanna pay for your friends just do, it doesn't have to be a big deal. The examples are construed as some niche experience for tech, when it's the most common stuff any non-rich-as-a-kid (as in 99% of people) person goes through. Money doesn't fix insecurities I guess.
You could have just said you don't relate to the post.
I could have, but then I would be saying something different than what I intend to say. It is not in fact a super reasonable concern, perhaps outside of dating, that picking up a tab will be misconstrued.
Maybe with your life experiences, but my own agree with the author's. When you're around people who aren't (or haven't always been) at least middle-class, they're aware of the power that money holds.
I think this is an experience almost everyone has. It's certainly a plot point on a million TV shows. (Most recently for me, the first episode of Hacks where the assistant is sent back into the store for 17 cents change.) You get a weird request to pay for your own coffee, whatever, you send them the $6, and then you move on to not talking to them again.
You'd pay back the coffee?
Well, I'm thinking of the time somebody asked me for like $2 for parking, but they were right there. I guess if it's a Venmo you just click ignore.
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Oooh, oooh, an opportunity to talk about my favorite tech related money cluelessness story.
The setting: somewhere in the late 00's. I'm still in grad school at the time. A friend of mine, a musician from New Orleans, is in town for an electronic music thing. He and I are going to grab a drink somewhere.
But my friend is also in town networking. And he eventually gets talking to a founder of a very prominent music technology company which will remain nameless. Said founder is, as they tend to be, rich as shit. My friend texts me: is it ok if we switch from grabbing a drink to going out with this founder? I, not wanting to mess with my friend's networking, say sure thing.
So fast forward a few hours. Drink has become dinner, at a very fancy restaurant. It's me, a grad student; my friend, a working musician; an undergrad who tagged along, and a rich founder. The founder orders for the table. I don't remember where we were, but I do remember that the founder ordered oysters. I remember this because I'm allergic to Oysters.
The check comes. And the asshole founder tells the waiter to split it. Somehow drinks with a buddy turned into 80 bucks a head. And I couldn't even tell the founder to go fuck himself, because, friend, networking, etc.
Really hard to not see this as deliberate, notwithstanding the argument in the post that people like this are just clueless.
The setting: somewhere in the late 00's. I'm still in grad school at the time. A friend of mine, a musician from New Orleans, is in town for an electronic music thing. He and I are going to grab a drink somewhere.
But my friend is also in town networking. And he eventually gets talking to a founder of a very prominent music technology company which will remain nameless. Said founder is, as they tend to be, rich as shit. My friend texts me: is it ok if we switch from grabbing a drink to going out with this founder? I, not wanting to mess with my friend's networking, say sure thing.
So fast forward a few hours. Drink has become dinner, at a very fancy restaurant. It's me, a grad student; my friend, a working musician; an undergrad who tagged along, and a rich founder. The founder orders for the table. I don't remember where we were, but I do remember that the founder ordered oysters. I remember this because I'm allergic to Oysters.
The check comes. And the asshole founder tells the waiter to split it. Somehow drinks with a buddy turned into 80 bucks a head. And I couldn't even tell the founder to go fuck himself, because, friend, networking, etc.
Really hard to not see this as deliberate, notwithstanding the argument in the post that people like this are just clueless.
I don't understand why rich people don't pick up the tab (Or at least be willing to) if they invite people out. It costs next to nothing and buys a lot of good will.
Pretty reasonable chance this dude wasn’t as rich as you, or OP, thinks. Having a million dollars doesn’t mean you just buy everyone meals around you all the time.
And if you do, then people just come to expect it and will even seek you out just for the free shit.
Crap move to order oysters for the table and then expect people to split it though.
And if you do, then people just come to expect it and will even seek you out just for the free shit.
Crap move to order oysters for the table and then expect people to split it though.
This guy's actions are just not particularly defensible.
He ordered not just oysters, but the whole meal by the sounds of it, with people he had just met and whose financial situation he was (presumably) unaware of. Expecting a split check is not reasonable.
Either he came from such wealth that he didn't realize people ever consider the cost of an evening out--not a particularly satisfying rationale--or he was just clueless.
He ordered not just oysters, but the whole meal by the sounds of it, with people he had just met and whose financial situation he was (presumably) unaware of. Expecting a split check is not reasonable.
Either he came from such wealth that he didn't realize people ever consider the cost of an evening out--not a particularly satisfying rationale--or he was just clueless.
You don't have to be that rich to comfortably pick up the tab at a restaurant. I do it pretty often with friends and I'm not rich.
> Having a million dollars doesn’t mean you just buy everyone meals around you all the time
I specifically said when they invite people out, not "buy everyone meals around you all the time". I think you're reading into this too much.
> Having a million dollars doesn’t mean you just buy everyone meals around you all the time
I specifically said when they invite people out, not "buy everyone meals around you all the time". I think you're reading into this too much.
Sorry you said “if they invite people out”. And I took that at face value. If I invite people I know to dinner that doesn’t mean I’m paying.
Perhaps I'm missing some context here, but I don't really see how this is deliberately malevolent? If you're at a restaurant you should order what you can afford to order, ordering something expensive just because you think someone else is paying is a douche move.
That’s literally the point of the story. It was a douche move.
I don't really see where you're coming from. If you go out to eat with someone who has more money than you why do you expect them to pick up the bill? I doubt you pick up the bill every time you go out to eat with other people.
You seem to have missed that the people paying weren't the people who ordered?
Don't invite people to dinner if you're not comfortable with what they may possibly order? If I don't want to pay for an expensive dinner, I don't invite along a big spender, and I sure as fuck don't invite myself to their dinner.
Did you even read the original story? I don’t think we read the same thing.
Dude invites people out to eat. Orders oysters for the table. Asks to split the tab.
Dude invites people out to eat. Orders oysters for the table. Asks to split the tab.
It was unclear to me who invited who were. Who picked the restaurant? The rich guy? Why would he invite somebody he doesn't even know to dinner?
I hope that one day you have the opportunity to go out to eat with people you’ve only recently met.
They ordered for the table. If you order me oysters, you’re paying for them.
Okay, I see where the confusion is coming from, thanks for clarifying. That expression means something different where I'm from, I'm not a native speaker. Sorry for the noise.
So tell the waiter? What's the problem?
The problem is with the person who ordered oysters for the table and then told the waiter to split the check.
That is the problem.
That is the problem.
"Excuse me, waiter, here's $20 for my Caesar salad, put the rest on his card."
Have you ever eaten a meal at a restaurant? You don’t bring the waiter into a financial dispute at the table.
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You're a really good friend. Rich guy should've picked up the tab.
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I found this post to be really on point.
There's a power dynamic to having more disposable income than others, especially within your peer group. This is more pronounced with tech workers (as pointed out in the post) as there's less of a monetary barrier to entry than other high paying fields, so a tech workers typical college friend group has a greater income disparity than a typical group of doctors or lawyers who tend to be more insular.
Saying that this post references a non-issue or is simply untrue is misunderstanding the situation and should make you think about the financial positions of individuals within your own friend group, as well as yours relative to them.
There's a power dynamic to having more disposable income than others, especially within your peer group. This is more pronounced with tech workers (as pointed out in the post) as there's less of a monetary barrier to entry than other high paying fields, so a tech workers typical college friend group has a greater income disparity than a typical group of doctors or lawyers who tend to be more insular.
Saying that this post references a non-issue or is simply untrue is misunderstanding the situation and should make you think about the financial positions of individuals within your own friend group, as well as yours relative to them.
What does "venmo for the salsa" mean? Who is paying who? Is that in a restaurant?
I think it's referring people who use apps like venmo to settle up for small trivial things that could easily be ignored. Especially as these are people that usually have enough money that the £3 for salsa would make no difference to them whatsoever.
I don't have Venmo in my country, but I think they mean sending a micro-invoice using Venmo to say "Hey, pay for the salsa you ate that I ordered for the table."
>"Folks who grew up in affluent households will venmo for the salsa."
Means "folks who grew up affluent won't hesitate to ask for people to pay for the thing they ordered for the table, and don't know how that makes them look." Like another comment said, you'd think that salsa is complimentary? Or like, if you ordered salsa, YOU would be the one eating it, not sharing it? I don't know how these things work in the context they're saying.
“Look, we’re all sitting around this table at this taqueria together, therefore we are equal!”
It’s their version of “I don’t see color,” because they never really had to.
"I'm not realizing how, as a rich person, asking people to pay for something incidental when I could just let it go, is ignorant"? Maybe? They grew up rich, rather than becoming rich, so they wouldn't have the context of the rudeness behind asking for people to pay for communal stuff?
The fact we're having this speculation about the semantics/meaning indicates that it could have been phrased a lot better.
>"Folks who grew up in affluent households will venmo for the salsa."
Means "folks who grew up affluent won't hesitate to ask for people to pay for the thing they ordered for the table, and don't know how that makes them look." Like another comment said, you'd think that salsa is complimentary? Or like, if you ordered salsa, YOU would be the one eating it, not sharing it? I don't know how these things work in the context they're saying.
“Look, we’re all sitting around this table at this taqueria together, therefore we are equal!”
It’s their version of “I don’t see color,” because they never really had to.
"I'm not realizing how, as a rich person, asking people to pay for something incidental when I could just let it go, is ignorant"? Maybe? They grew up rich, rather than becoming rich, so they wouldn't have the context of the rudeness behind asking for people to pay for communal stuff?
The fact we're having this speculation about the semantics/meaning indicates that it could have been phrased a lot better.
I also don't understand what that means either. Most taco shops in silicon valley have salsa as a free condiment.
I live in Silicon Valley so can speak from experience. Typically one person pays for everything (and gets the CC points) then sends everyone a picture of the receipt and requests the exact amount of money owed, often given via Venmo or the likes. Whoever used the salsa pays the person who paid for the entire meal the precise amount.
"Tech Money" will largely dissipate after labor market dynamics normalize. Could be as soon as next year if the economy continues on its current trajectory.
The best will still attain high compensation, but the world of 6 figure jobs after 6 week bootcamps is going to end.
Value add to the employer just sets a ceiling on potential pay. In the end, wage and compensation is always a product of supply and demand of labor.
The best will still attain high compensation, but the world of 6 figure jobs after 6 week bootcamps is going to end.
Value add to the employer just sets a ceiling on potential pay. In the end, wage and compensation is always a product of supply and demand of labor.
> bootcamp + 2 years of experience type aren't going to be making 400k+ with minimal effort.
In my my highly subjective opinion, dismiss it freely: This bootcamp do-nothing trope strikes me as a stereotype coming from a similar place as the stereotypes of illegal immigrants taking jobs. Likely real but very rare, and disproportionately highlighted. Of course I am biased, as I am a boot camp grad.
In my my highly subjective opinion, dismiss it freely: This bootcamp do-nothing trope strikes me as a stereotype coming from a similar place as the stereotypes of illegal immigrants taking jobs. Likely real but very rare, and disproportionately highlighted. Of course I am biased, as I am a boot camp grad.
I’m not against bootcamps generally.
I just hired 4 people for my team, and the guy with 0 experience and bootcamp grad is actually the most valuable.
More using it as a euphemism for those that aren’t particularly skilled. Skill is more a product of motivation of the individual, and bootcamp vs college doesn’t matter much in the end.
All that to say, the gold rush where low skill people can get a 6 figure job after a short period of training is coming to an end
I just hired 4 people for my team, and the guy with 0 experience and bootcamp grad is actually the most valuable.
More using it as a euphemism for those that aren’t particularly skilled. Skill is more a product of motivation of the individual, and bootcamp vs college doesn’t matter much in the end.
All that to say, the gold rush where low skill people can get a 6 figure job after a short period of training is coming to an end
> bootcamp + 2 years of experience type aren't going to be making 400k+ with minimal effort.
How frequently did this happen? (Seattle, 20+ year career) I never saw anyone that fit this description.
How frequently did this happen? (Seattle, 20+ year career) I never saw anyone that fit this description.
Happened a lot in the Bay Area. Can only speak to my own experience of course.
I changed the text to reflect a more universally accepted state though
I changed the text to reflect a more universally accepted state though
Ya, this is relatable. I will however occasionally pick up a tab, but I'll be ask how much it is first, compare it to what I was prepared to spend that night, and it'd still be a big gesture to me, not a flex. Also don't know what venmo for salsa means. Anything I spend, I do so with the knowledge it could all be taken away tomorrow, or I could lose the job, or my apartment.
I don't know that I've ever spoken again to anyone who accepted my invitation somewhere and then insisted on splitting the bill instead of letting me get it. It's a rejection of hospitality, which happens, but it's a signifier, and usually of the end of the relationship. Someone who won't break bread with you is someone you can't trust, and someone who does break bread with you and then betrays you is unworthy of your disappointment.
What does “Venmo for the salsa” mean and is HENRY a meme of the person who bought the coffee? The writing is pretty confusing
I have no idea what the point was, or what the 6$ had to to with tech money and venmo
I agree with this. The point was meant to be that asking for the $6 back was due to rich people cluelessness, but I'd read that situation as the person being a dickhead.
On the more general question of "venmo the salsa," or splitting bills, my friends have a mix of backgrounds. Some of the poorer ones are scrupulous about splitting the bill correctly, while some of the richer ones either pay for the whole thing or stick a photo of the bill in a group chat then don't follow it up, while others are like she describes. There seems to be little correlation with wealth but an obvious one with which city they grew up in, which makes it hard for me to accept her argument.
On the more general question of "venmo the salsa," or splitting bills, my friends have a mix of backgrounds. Some of the poorer ones are scrupulous about splitting the bill correctly, while some of the richer ones either pay for the whole thing or stick a photo of the bill in a group chat then don't follow it up, while others are like she describes. There seems to be little correlation with wealth but an obvious one with which city they grew up in, which makes it hard for me to accept her argument.
If I were to associate asking for the $6 back with level of wealth, I'd associate it with someone who grew up poor, not rich. To people born middle class and up this is not a notable expense. If anything, the number which isn't worth thinking about should go up with the level of wealth.
However, that's a big if. I really wouldn't ascribe it to level of wealth. If they wanted to split the bill, they should have made it clear earlier, certainly not after paying the bill. It's not class, it's just being a dick.
Which is to say I agree with you. :)
However, that's a big if. I really wouldn't ascribe it to level of wealth. If they wanted to split the bill, they should have made it clear earlier, certainly not after paying the bill. It's not class, it's just being a dick.
Which is to say I agree with you. :)
If you don't understand what's wrong with the starter example of asking for your coffee money back, perhaps you're illustrating the author's point.
I do, but I don't get the articles point really other than saying its bad manners
OP is, I think, asking what the point of the story of the asshole founder is. The article is poorly written. Asking questions about it does not illustrate the point I think the article is trying to make.
The example from the beginning can be found at any site where people share dating experiences, there is nothing specific about tech money.
Stopped reading as soon as the usual spiel about white/man went.
Stopped reading as soon as the usual spiel about white/man went.
Messy and poorly written article, could not finish reading it.
Unpleasant surprise to find this on HN.
Unpleasant surprise to find this on HN.
This is a broad generalization that's actually the inverse of what I've seen, and I'm willing to bet I've interacted with an order of magnitude more "grew up affluent" types than the author, having grown up in one of the richest suburbs in the US.
Maybe it depends on the kind of wealth, but in my social circles (both growing up and now) anyone who did something like ask for a $6 Venmo would be laughed out of the room, and if they were serious people would Start Talking about them. That is Just Not Done, people pick up small tabs and (sometimes) split large ones and don't think about it at all, to do otherwise is considered extremely crass. Any fights over tabs are usually of the alpha male variety where paying the tab is a sign of dominance (and I've seen those fights get weird, with people ninja-settling in secret before the check shows up just so they can say "it's already taken care of" and then angry fights erupting afterwards because someone else had expected to pay).
Yes, there is a careless and/or arrogant disregard for money, but it does not usually come across as penny pinching and counting what other people owe you, it's more the type of thing where they'll casually assume everyone in the party would be thrilled to go to a $400/person restaurant for a celebration, not for a moment realizing how much of a stretch that is for the younger/less rich in the group and what a hard position it puts them in.
I think the word the author is looking for to pick out the kind of person who sends a Venmo request for a coffee is "asshole", not "grew up wealthy". I feel like they have some axe to grind here and have ended up severely overgeneralizing as a result...