Gun Death Rate Nears Three-Decade High, with Men at Most Risk(wsj.com)
wsj.com
Gun Death Rate Nears Three-Decade High, with Men at Most Risk
https://www.wsj.com/articles/gun-death-rate-nears-three-decade-high-with-men-at-most-risk-11669749562
31 comments
I wish the suicide rate was factored more into conversations about needing guns for "self-defence".
I wish the suicide rate was factored more into conversations about taking guns away due to "violent crime".
Absolutely - the protective aspect of guns against "violent crime" is far outweighed by the risk of someone shooting themselves.
Absolutely - the shooting themselves aspect of guns against "taking them away" is far outweighed by the risk of violent crime.
This line of arguing isn't nearly as convincing as you think it is.
WHOOSH
This is a selfawarewolves-tier post.
This is a selfawarewolves-tier post.
Gun owners don't need more guns, they need therapy!
Gun owners don't need more guns, they need therapy!
(This post is hilarious since gun owners frequently call shooting "therapy". Many gun owners would unironically say/type this exact same comment. Congrats, you played yourself.)
(This post is hilarious since gun owners frequently call shooting "therapy". Many gun owners would unironically say/type this exact same comment. Congrats, you played yourself.)
I personally think therapy is great and will help gun owners protect themselves from the greatest threat they face, which is their mental health!
>I personally think therapy is great and will help gun owners protect themselves from the greatest threat they face, which is their mental health!
"I personally think therapy (shooting targets) is great and will help gun owners protect themselves from the greatest threat they face, which is their mental health (greatest threat all Americans face)!"
Imagine posting exactly what a pro-gun target shooter would post and think it's snark. Congrats, you just played yourself again. Thanks for agreeing.
"I personally think therapy (shooting targets) is great and will help gun owners protect themselves from the greatest threat they face, which is their mental health (greatest threat all Americans face)!"
Imagine posting exactly what a pro-gun target shooter would post and think it's snark. Congrats, you just played yourself again. Thanks for agreeing.
I think the fact that a pro-gun target shooter wouldn't seek real therapy is sad since they're a danger to themselves :(
Imagine all the therapy they could have gotten with the money they wasted on guns!
Imagine all the therapy they could have gotten with the money they wasted on guns!
>I think the fact
That's not a fact, it's a delusion you just invented.
>that a pro-gun target shooter wouldn't seek real therapy
Shooting is real therapy. It's therapeutic.
>is sad since they're a danger to themselves :(
Everyone is a danger to themselves.
>Imagine all the therapy they could have gotten with the money they wasted on guns!
Expendable income and health insurance are two completely different buckets of money.
Three times in a row you've played yourself. You're batting like the Washington Nationals.
That's not a fact, it's a delusion you just invented.
>that a pro-gun target shooter wouldn't seek real therapy
Shooting is real therapy. It's therapeutic.
>is sad since they're a danger to themselves :(
Everyone is a danger to themselves.
>Imagine all the therapy they could have gotten with the money they wasted on guns!
Expendable income and health insurance are two completely different buckets of money.
Three times in a row you've played yourself. You're batting like the Washington Nationals.
> Shooting is real therapy. It's therapeutic.
lol
lol
Thanks for agreeing it's therapeutic. Rent free. I won.
Is this also a product of the patriarchy?
Nothing like this has a single cause but yes. Consider how certain cultural norms for handling emotions, what shows your value as a man, and how you interact with other men would affect the rates for suicide or escalating violence. Grim economic prospects affect many people but if you’ve been told that you’re valuable to the extent that you’re affluent, or that macho posturing is how to respond to perceived disrespect, it’s understandable that some percentage of men will make worse choices than they might in a more supportive culture. Too many men don’t have a close friend to talk them back off the ledge because they thought showing emotions and vulnerability was a female thing or made you gay.
How are the numbers getting worse as all these "toxic things" are currently falling out of fashion? It is now becoming more acceptable for men to behave that way, why wouldn't the numbers improve then?
First, they're far from universally out of fashion — attitudes change unevenly and there's always backlash, and that matters a lot when the attitude shifts are disproportionately driven by college-educated, affluent parents but the crime is not being committed by their children.
Second, and more importantly, there's a wicked lag here — gun violence is predominantly a young man's crime so what parents are doing now isn't the question as much as how things were a couple decades ago. Suicide rates peak later, so you might have the question of how, say, many middle-aged white man (the peak demographic) will handle mid-life career or marriage failures based on the values they were raised with (for a lot of us, it was that you're a good man if you earn a solid income so your wife can stay home and your kids want for nothing. Want to guess what's not the case for entirely too many people?).
Second, and more importantly, there's a wicked lag here — gun violence is predominantly a young man's crime so what parents are doing now isn't the question as much as how things were a couple decades ago. Suicide rates peak later, so you might have the question of how, say, many middle-aged white man (the peak demographic) will handle mid-life career or marriage failures based on the values they were raised with (for a lot of us, it was that you're a good man if you earn a solid income so your wife can stay home and your kids want for nothing. Want to guess what's not the case for entirely too many people?).
As much as you can say it's falling out of fashion, just as many others are "doubling down".
I'm sorry but I hate this take so much and I hate it even more that it's so accepted. Blaming men (or collective manhood called "the patriarchy") for their own suicide rates would be considered gaslighting and victim shaming in any other context but when it comes to men you can just casually drop it and people will consider it a sophisticated take on male suicide rates.
I don't even fully disagree with you – it is a problem that men are less likely to open up, are less likely to have a close friend, etc. But just saying "patriarchy" and "cultural norms" is a lazy cop out. You don't look at something that mostly affects women such as anorexia, say "well it's cultural norms, women should work on that" and shrug it off.
It's not an original take but I strongly believe that there's a biological basis to things that men do that both makes them kill themselves at higher rates but also makes them work the worst jobs like oil drill workers or industrial divers. But way too many times the toxic aspects of masculinity are highlighted (often for good reasons) while the positive aspects are ignored and belittled. Some good, high-level evidence for this is that even in super gender egalitarian cultures such as Sweden men still kill themselves at around three times the rate than women.
Instead of waxing about "the patriarchy" and "cultural norms" how about doing some research and looking into systemic issues?
Disclaimer: This mostly makes me so angry because I was personally affected. I spent years with suicidal ideation and being close a few times because I was highly depressed due to growing up with a borderline mother and then having a longterm borderline partner. When I finally found the energy to look for therapy I found that most therapists are female and it's really hard to find a male therapist (systemic issue right here). I had the enormous luck to find one who did a masculinity-positive therapist - and please don't think Jordan Peterson here – and I still think that this man saved my life. I really don't want to imagine what would have happened if I had found a therapist talking about the patriarchy – because it really is just another way of saying "man up". BTW: I ultimately left my abusive, borderline girlfriend and she never had to feel any social repercussions for her behaviour. Is that also "the patriarchy"? If yes, then the term is completely meaningless. Do you think showing vulnerability would have helped me in that situation? I don't think so, it actually just made her angrier.
Long story short: Before you drop this take next time, please do some more research into what men can suffer from and think about whether it's all just the patriarchy. Thanks for listening.
I don't even fully disagree with you – it is a problem that men are less likely to open up, are less likely to have a close friend, etc. But just saying "patriarchy" and "cultural norms" is a lazy cop out. You don't look at something that mostly affects women such as anorexia, say "well it's cultural norms, women should work on that" and shrug it off.
It's not an original take but I strongly believe that there's a biological basis to things that men do that both makes them kill themselves at higher rates but also makes them work the worst jobs like oil drill workers or industrial divers. But way too many times the toxic aspects of masculinity are highlighted (often for good reasons) while the positive aspects are ignored and belittled. Some good, high-level evidence for this is that even in super gender egalitarian cultures such as Sweden men still kill themselves at around three times the rate than women.
Instead of waxing about "the patriarchy" and "cultural norms" how about doing some research and looking into systemic issues?
Disclaimer: This mostly makes me so angry because I was personally affected. I spent years with suicidal ideation and being close a few times because I was highly depressed due to growing up with a borderline mother and then having a longterm borderline partner. When I finally found the energy to look for therapy I found that most therapists are female and it's really hard to find a male therapist (systemic issue right here). I had the enormous luck to find one who did a masculinity-positive therapist - and please don't think Jordan Peterson here – and I still think that this man saved my life. I really don't want to imagine what would have happened if I had found a therapist talking about the patriarchy – because it really is just another way of saying "man up". BTW: I ultimately left my abusive, borderline girlfriend and she never had to feel any social repercussions for her behaviour. Is that also "the patriarchy"? If yes, then the term is completely meaningless. Do you think showing vulnerability would have helped me in that situation? I don't think so, it actually just made her angrier.
Long story short: Before you drop this take next time, please do some more research into what men can suffer from and think about whether it's all just the patriarchy. Thanks for listening.
Hey, I’m sorry that you had to deal with what sounds like a rough situation. My position isn’t that patriarchy explains everything – I blame economics more, for example – but rather that it means that a fair number of us do not have good tools for dealing with our feelings and we often have social pressure compounding problems. For example, you mentioned going to therapy — my father never got any form of treatment for his manic depression because he had been raised to think of that as weak and effeminate, and real men just needed to power through. His life could have gone so much better if he’d ever found a stable balance but it wasn’t a tool many men of his generation thought they could use. Even when I was growing up in suburban California in the 80s and 90s therapy was the subject of jokes & stigma, often linked to the homophobia which a lot of boys & men spent time actively reinforcing.
Again, I’m not claiming that every problem is caused by patriarchy any more than every car accident was caused by the lack of antilock brakes - only that it left a lot of us vulnerable and less prepared for downsides in life, and that it’s unevenly given (e.g. I’ve heard more “man up” messaging from other men whose lives had generally gone well than those who had some experience with hard problems). If I had a magic wand, the thing I’d want would be for anyone to feel it’s normal to get help just like nobody blinks about seeing a doctor when you break your arm.
Again, I’m not claiming that every problem is caused by patriarchy any more than every car accident was caused by the lack of antilock brakes - only that it left a lot of us vulnerable and less prepared for downsides in life, and that it’s unevenly given (e.g. I’ve heard more “man up” messaging from other men whose lives had generally gone well than those who had some experience with hard problems). If I had a magic wand, the thing I’d want would be for anyone to feel it’s normal to get help just like nobody blinks about seeing a doctor when you break your arm.
> suicides among white males push up firearm fatalities
This part could be linked to toxic masculinity.
This part could be linked to toxic masculinity.
The young white males I know that died from suicide were all wonderful men who suffered from mental health issues.
And one of the things with toxic masculinity is not getting help with that, or speaking about issues you are facing. Seeking help is not a sign of weakness, or does it make you less of a man.
I am a white man and I feel that type of pressure.
I am a white man and I feel that type of pressure.
> Seeking help is not a sign of weakness, or does it make you less of a man.
I find women often treat you like it is/does. Men too, but men care more about what women think and hoo boy do they walk differently than they talk.
I was raised to be open and honest and avoid "toxic masculinity". Turns out I started to perform better socially when I hid my feelings and thoughts and tried to emphasize visibly masculine qualities. Too bad I didn't pick up on this till I turned 30, might have enjoyed more friendships and romantic relationships.
I find women often treat you like it is/does. Men too, but men care more about what women think and hoo boy do they walk differently than they talk.
I was raised to be open and honest and avoid "toxic masculinity". Turns out I started to perform better socially when I hid my feelings and thoughts and tried to emphasize visibly masculine qualities. Too bad I didn't pick up on this till I turned 30, might have enjoyed more friendships and romantic relationships.
Eh, sounds like you got stuck with the wrong crowd. Avoiding "toxic masculinity" has been absolutely wonderful in both those areas for me.
Suicide as well as violent crime tend to increase every time the economy weakens. If we add a more atomized individual into that, it makes sense that this would be compounded.
> violent crime tend to increase every time the economy weakens
I expect that the ongoing pandemic, social upheaval, political polarization, war, etc. don't lead to a great social/economic/health/mental health environment.
Most people probably hadn't previously lived through a situation where millions of people die from contagious disease, the government shuts down businesses and schools, etc..
Besides the pandemic-related social isolation and political and economic fallout, covid itself can have short and long-term affects on your brain.
I expect that the ongoing pandemic, social upheaval, political polarization, war, etc. don't lead to a great social/economic/health/mental health environment.
Most people probably hadn't previously lived through a situation where millions of people die from contagious disease, the government shuts down businesses and schools, etc..
Besides the pandemic-related social isolation and political and economic fallout, covid itself can have short and long-term affects on your brain.