Argentina Wins the World Cup(theguardian.com)
theguardian.com
Argentina Wins the World Cup
https://www.theguardian.com/football/live/2022/dec/18/argentina-france-world-cup-2022-final-live
248 comments
Worth noting that France was deeply unlucky. Virus hit the team just before the final. Benzema and Pogba missing. And Deschamps made some questionable decisions in my view.
And Mbappe still showed up and put in one of the most heroic performances I’ve ever seen in sports, basically carrying the entire team. Really looking forward to watching his career.
And Mbappe still showed up and put in one of the most heroic performances I’ve ever seen in sports, basically carrying the entire team. Really looking forward to watching his career.
MBappe did carry his weight fully, despite his status, youth and the usual pressure of a WC final. It was a honourable defeat.
Surely the team was decimated, such is life.
Surely the team was decimated, such is life.
Mbappe has such an insane future if he keeps it up. He could've won his 2nd worldcup and he's only 23 years old, and has already scored more goals than almost anyone in a WC, while almost entirely carrying his team. I'm glad France lost, because they have the potential to be completely dominant for another 10 years, and that's even without mbappe.
Mbappe scored 3 goals + a penalty in a world cup final.
He is an amazing player with no equal at this moment.
He is an amazing player with no equal at this moment.
1 goal and 3 penalties.
Or 1 goal and 1 penalty, the penalty executed like carbon copy three times. It was almost like kicker and goalie were working on this one execution together.
MBappe scored the most goals in the WC final history (4), yet it wasn't enough.
Benzema could have (should have) been a sub in the final - they even took Giroud out early! But in true French fashion they couldn’t get over their drama.
Still it let Mbappe shine and put on a legendary show
Still it let Mbappe shine and put on a legendary show
Also, that foul on Di Maria in the penalty box wasn't.
Argentina were the best team by far 80 min.
It just so happened that things went out of the script in the following 3 minutes, and then after we proceeded to watch quite possibly the best extra time played of all time, certainly in a final game.
Best final? Possibly. But only because of the unexpected 2-2 which looked impossible in the preceding 80mins. In fact, there was only 1 team that showed up for most of the first 90mins.
Had the game not gone into extra time, this would just be another lopsided game with a deserved winner. This was not a trade of blows, Rocky style.
That was left for extra time :)
It just so happened that things went out of the script in the following 3 minutes, and then after we proceeded to watch quite possibly the best extra time played of all time, certainly in a final game.
Best final? Possibly. But only because of the unexpected 2-2 which looked impossible in the preceding 80mins. In fact, there was only 1 team that showed up for most of the first 90mins.
Had the game not gone into extra time, this would just be another lopsided game with a deserved winner. This was not a trade of blows, Rocky style.
That was left for extra time :)
That's kind of silly. A match doesn't have to be trading blows like Rocky for the whole 90 minutes. Stuff happens. If you have a 2-0 lead, you have to protect it for the entire game.
I get tired of things being proclaimed "the best ever" though. "It was really good" is plenty, unless you've watched every other one.
I get tired of things being proclaimed "the best ever" though. "It was really good" is plenty, unless you've watched every other one.
[Hi from Argentina] When it was 2-0, I expected the team to go full defense as usual in other Word Cups. I't boring because you have 10 players defending and only 1 in the other half of the field trying to use an error to make a 3rd goal. It's at the same time very boring and very nerving.
I was surprise they continue attacking, and were very close to the 3rd goal.
I was surprise they continue attacking, and were very close to the 3rd goal.
Well, congratulations, anyway. They made it exciting.
It's boring but it's better than losing like Brazil did :)
We are talking about the best match ever.
For a game to qualify as the "best ever", there MUST be trading blows. And I don't mean like fistfights. I mean like end to end almost-goal action. And comebacks.
Which is exactly what happened in extra time. Twice. And plenty of chances gone amiss
NO one remembers a game that ended 1-0 with nothing else happening. Its not memorable
Even if its a final.
For a game to qualify as the "best ever", there MUST be trading blows. And I don't mean like fistfights. I mean like end to end almost-goal action. And comebacks.
Which is exactly what happened in extra time. Twice. And plenty of chances gone amiss
NO one remembers a game that ended 1-0 with nothing else happening. Its not memorable
Even if its a final.
that's like, just your opinion, man.
Please compare to every other World Cup final now. Even the ones before you were born. List them all here.
OR : we can just agree that it was a great game.
Please compare to every other World Cup final now. Even the ones before you were born. List them all here.
OR : we can just agree that it was a great game.
actually, it'd be very very easy to measure with the right stat toolsets.
Simply look at XG, progressive passing, even something as basic as chances created, and i bet you will see a marked difference with other finals.
And I mean the numbers will be high, but critically, and -this is important- they will high numbers split between BOTH teams. I think stats will bear that out. Unf I don't have access to opta to get this info without paying.
Usually in Extra time you have both teams playing conservative, OR 1 team chasing the win and the other holding for dear life.
Yesterday both teams were out to hurt each other.
Simply look at XG, progressive passing, even something as basic as chances created, and i bet you will see a marked difference with other finals.
And I mean the numbers will be high, but critically, and -this is important- they will high numbers split between BOTH teams. I think stats will bear that out. Unf I don't have access to opta to get this info without paying.
Usually in Extra time you have both teams playing conservative, OR 1 team chasing the win and the other holding for dear life.
Yesterday both teams were out to hurt each other.
It's all about opinion, isn't it? Even if they compared yesterdays final to every other final in history there are still no objective criteria to judge.
Right. But at least they'd have to stop with the superlatives.
I don't know if Messi is greater than Pelé or Maradona. Or if Muhammed Ali was greater than Joe Louis. They're all great.
I don't know if Messi is greater than Pelé or Maradona. Or if Muhammed Ali was greater than Joe Louis. They're all great.
After the first half it was a phenomenal game. I was in a pub in Peckham and despite people not particularly rooting either way the atmosphere was insane.
Also loved that everyone booed the Qatari blokes.
Also loved that everyone booed the Qatari blokes.
The amazing part is that even the second half looked like a complete bore until the 80th minute. I don't think I've ever watched a match turn around not only in the score, but also in the pace and intensity so decisively and so late. I rooted for argentina but I'm so glad Mbappe almost single handedly made the final legendary by bringing France back from the brink.
The second half was better than you think it was and will hold up under rewatching, I suspect.
In the first half, Argentina dominated possession and kept France completely on defense and just pummeled them, a boxer just getting blasted in the corner holding gloves up for dear life, super lopsided.
In the second half, from the very start, France was hungry for blood, it's just that the Argentinian defense was very strong as they had not yet really had to play much in the first half. It seemed boring because we were already thinking we saw this going 3-0, Messi sweeping up the Cup easily in the last game against a sick team stuck at their 75%. But if you are paying more attention, you will see France with the lead on possession, numerous back-and-forth pushes, lots of French pushes only to be stuck inside a “cup” of three Argentine defenders who shut it down... Then they start to get tired, leading to that first penalty (“let me just hug you in the box”), followed by the French sharks sensing the fatigue, blood in the water, a French feeding frenzy. It should hold up well I think
In the first half, Argentina dominated possession and kept France completely on defense and just pummeled them, a boxer just getting blasted in the corner holding gloves up for dear life, super lopsided.
In the second half, from the very start, France was hungry for blood, it's just that the Argentinian defense was very strong as they had not yet really had to play much in the first half. It seemed boring because we were already thinking we saw this going 3-0, Messi sweeping up the Cup easily in the last game against a sick team stuck at their 75%. But if you are paying more attention, you will see France with the lead on possession, numerous back-and-forth pushes, lots of French pushes only to be stuck inside a “cup” of three Argentine defenders who shut it down... Then they start to get tired, leading to that first penalty (“let me just hug you in the box”), followed by the French sharks sensing the fatigue, blood in the water, a French feeding frenzy. It should hold up well I think
if you are referring to the TV....they actually booed infantino, the president of fifa.
No one booed the qataris. In fact the boos ended once the king was announced.
They love their king and deservedly so
No one booed the qataris. In fact the boos ended once the king was announced.
They love their king and deservedly so
I’m talking about my fellow pub go-ers.
> everyone booed the Qatari blokes.
I always find this hilarious, half of Canary Wharf is owned by Qataris lol
I always find this hilarious, half of Canary Wharf is owned by Qataris lol
How is it hilarious? I doubt the average English person is a massive fan of Canary Wharf and it’s owners.
It's hilarious because it plays a part in the UK economy and generates tax pounds. So in way or another they are not so disconnected form the people they are booing.
I really don't understand your point or your sense of humor
Yeah no we are rich property owners/developers and what they’re doing to our city. Take your money and fuck off kindly, we’ll keep our pubs.
Canary Wharf is built by the rich to serve the rich, the average Londoner at best thinks of it as kind of a dystopian novelty with big stuff.
Agreed! This is the most epic championship I’ve ever seen in any sport.
I was watching with a French friend and cheering for them, but I’ve got to say Argentina earned it and it would have been a shame if Messi never got a cup.
Mbappé’s hat trick was also an epic display that the torch is being passed to the next generation. Tonight was just about everything you could ask for in a game.
I was watching with a French friend and cheering for them, but I’ve got to say Argentina earned it and it would have been a shame if Messi never got a cup.
Mbappé’s hat trick was also an epic display that the torch is being passed to the next generation. Tonight was just about everything you could ask for in a game.
Gotta give that one to the Patriots beating the Falcons with the (by far) biggest comeback in NFL Super Bowl history, all in the 4th quarter.
It required about 8 minutes of nearly perfect play to keep their chances alive.
It required about 8 minutes of nearly perfect play to keep their chances alive.
Agreed. It was a genuine, high intensity game.
No diving, no risk-averse passes for minutes, no BS. It was a proper world cup final.
No diving, no risk-averse passes for minutes, no BS. It was a proper world cup final.
The first penalty looked a bit iffy diving wise https://www.tiktok.com/@mishary.19/video/7178520312630267137...
This doesn't give context at all. Dembele was just completely beaten. He then made contact with Di Maria from behind when there was no chance he was playing for ball. Sure the referee didn't have to call penalty but it was fair he did. A more obvious interference could have resulted in a red card.
> No diving
By what standard was there "No diving"? Do you mean by the standard of "they all dive all of the time, so this wasn't bad relative to that"?
As someone who doesn't watch soccer, saying there was "No diving" beggars belief.
By what standard was there "No diving"? Do you mean by the standard of "they all dive all of the time, so this wasn't bad relative to that"?
As someone who doesn't watch soccer, saying there was "No diving" beggars belief.
What we call diving is likely not what someone who doesn't watch soccer would recognize as diving. It's pretty common to overdramatize fouls to get the ref to stop the game, and it's pretty accepted (although obviously extra points if you don't). This isn't actually diving but is sometimes colloquially referred to as such even by people who know better. What's actually a foul is diving when no one fouled you, which is what one of the French players did this game inside the penalty box. He got a yellow for it. The ref, besides spotting that in a split-second (impressive), was also very good at keeping the action going and only stopping if he saw an actual foul.
One does wish for less dramatization overall but you have to remember that if you keep playing the ref can rule that you did not wish to take the free kick. This is allowed since it's sometimes more advantageous. The rule is quite literally called advantage, and you don't want to take it unless it makes sense, although the ref usually makes a judgement call after a couple seconds. Still..
One does wish for less dramatization overall but you have to remember that if you keep playing the ref can rule that you did not wish to take the free kick. This is allowed since it's sometimes more advantageous. The rule is quite literally called advantage, and you don't want to take it unless it makes sense, although the ref usually makes a judgement call after a couple seconds. Still..
Factually untrue regarding no diving. The ref gave a yellow card to France for diving in the penalty box.
> No diving, ...
Did you not see the first penalty??
That was a Neymar class performance worthy of a Fallon d'Floor award.
Did you not see the first penalty??
That was a Neymar class performance worthy of a Fallon d'Floor award.
Helped by the ref being excellent.
1994 was my first World Cup and this really felt similar from what I remember. Except the stars put in their penalties
The debate should be settled now. In terms of trophies, Messi is the GOAT. In terms of statistics (goals, assists, dribbles), Messi is the GOAT. In terms of style of play, Messi is the GOAT. Pele, Maradona, and Cristiano are not on his level.
I'm really glad that Messi got to win his World Cup but you can't really compare players from very, very different eras. I grew up in the '80s and '90s under Diego's spell, and for that I would always see him as the greatest player ever, no matter what will happen next, but Maradona was playing a different game than what was played during Pele's time, and Messi is playing a different game compared to what used to be played in the '80s and '90s.
But, yeah, in the great scheme of things this would be the magic trio for me: Pele, Maradona, Messi, in chronological order, that is.
But, yeah, in the great scheme of things this would be the magic trio for me: Pele, Maradona, Messi, in chronological order, that is.
This is a poorly informed comment.
The same commenter also calls both Messi and Maradona dribbling playmaking forwards.
Some of their other comments when talking about Messi say, "If you come at the King, you best not miss."
The same commenter also calls both Messi and Maradona dribbling playmaking forwards.
Some of their other comments when talking about Messi say, "If you come at the King, you best not miss."
lol what. Pele is 3 times WC winner my dude. Messi is great, but not yet at Pele's level.
Pele is amazing. But he did not play in Europe where the competition was more fierce. And he was also a goal-scoring forward primarily. Messi is both one of the greatest goalscorers and one of the greatest playmakers.
LOL.
At the time Europe, particularly UK, was the backwater for soccer.
Teams (and players) went to play in Uruguay exhibition matches, because that's what the best players did.
EU didn't rise as a competitive market until the late 80s.
Before that, certainly around the time of Pele, Penarol, Santos and some other south american teams ran around in CIRCLES against any european team. Look at who won the world cups! France did not even register. UK was nothing except on home soil. Spain was a backwater league. Italy was just emerging. Germany was the only country that could actually compete.
Only the Hungarians were worthy of calling themselves competition....
At the time Europe, particularly UK, was the backwater for soccer.
Teams (and players) went to play in Uruguay exhibition matches, because that's what the best players did.
EU didn't rise as a competitive market until the late 80s.
Before that, certainly around the time of Pele, Penarol, Santos and some other south american teams ran around in CIRCLES against any european team. Look at who won the world cups! France did not even register. UK was nothing except on home soil. Spain was a backwater league. Italy was just emerging. Germany was the only country that could actually compete.
Only the Hungarians were worthy of calling themselves competition....
Fun fact: Silvio Berlusconi, who has been the controversial prime minister for Italy many times, sort of revolutionized football in Europe in the 80s when he acquired AC Milan and started spending like no tomorrow in an unprecedented way for the best international players money could buy. It’s not that before players weren’t worth a lot, Silvio Berlusconi added an order of magnitude or two to that. He also created the first “soccer team as a brand" movement. That trend - started in the 80s - continues to this day.
More here: https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/ac-milan-silvio-berlusc...
More here: https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/ac-milan-silvio-berlusc...
> Look at who won the world cups!
Looking over the winners of the early world cups, I'm trying to square the results with what you've written here (I'm not a soccer watcher): Europe won 5 out of the first 10 world cups (1930-1974); Italy won both the second and third. England won the 1966 cup, which interrupted Pele's run of World Cup wins.
Looking over the winners of the early world cups, I'm trying to square the results with what you've written here (I'm not a soccer watcher): Europe won 5 out of the first 10 world cups (1930-1974); Italy won both the second and third. England won the 1966 cup, which interrupted Pele's run of World Cup wins.
Former Real Madrid and Hungary star Ferenc Puskás stated: "The greatest player in history was Alfredo Di Stéfano. I refuse to classify Pelé as a player. He was above that."
https://web.archive.org/web/20190627023833/https://www.fifa....
Alfredo Di Stéfano:
"The best player ever? Pele. Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo are both great players with specific qualities, but Pele was better," Di Stefano told El Colombiano.
Di Stefano played over 300 games for Real Madrid, winning eight La Liga titles, and five European Champions Cups.
http://en.espn.co.uk/football/sport/story/169585.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20190627023833/https://www.fifa....
Alfredo Di Stéfano:
"The best player ever? Pele. Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo are both great players with specific qualities, but Pele was better," Di Stefano told El Colombiano.
Di Stefano played over 300 games for Real Madrid, winning eight La Liga titles, and five European Champions Cups.
http://en.espn.co.uk/football/sport/story/169585.html
> But he did not play in Europe where the competition was more fierce
Looks like he didn't have to since he still won 3 world cups.
Looks like he didn't have to since he still won 3 world cups.
another datapoint regarding pelé:
>After changing the rules in 1995, France Football did an extensive analysis in 2015 of the players who would have won the award if it was open for them since 1956—the year the Ballon d'Or award started. Their study revealed that Pelé would have received the award a record seven times (Ballon d'or: Le nouveau palmarès). The original recipients, however, remain unchanged.
from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pel%C3%A9#Accolades
>After changing the rules in 1995, France Football did an extensive analysis in 2015 of the players who would have won the award if it was open for them since 1956—the year the Ballon d'Or award started. Their study revealed that Pelé would have received the award a record seven times (Ballon d'or: Le nouveau palmarès). The original recipients, however, remain unchanged.
from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pel%C3%A9#Accolades
Very different times honestly. And being a GOAT, in this context, isn't specific to the world cup. Winning a world cup basically seals the deal, but it's about a lot more than just that.
Mbappe is.
mbappe is amazing, don't get me wrong. but we are talking about the "greatest of all time" -- mbappe needs to get at least 3 "best player of the year" to get close to the kinds of messi and cristiano ronaldo
and that's while not even talking about older players like maradona, pelé and garrincha.
and that's while not even talking about older players like maradona, pelé and garrincha.
he was invisible for 90% of the game, aside from the second goal, he hasn't done much, both penalties were terrible mistakes by Argentina defense.
This. 2 penalties awarded not to him but his teammates. One amazing goal. Still an excellent player nowhere near his prime years. We'll definitely see him for the next 3 WC for sure.
Wow, greatest ever final! Congrats Argentina and Messi.
Tough for France and Mbappe. Dead and buried at 80 minutes then took it all the way to penalties.
Tough for France and Mbappe. Dead and buried at 80 minutes then took it all the way to penalties.
Felt a bit of schadenfreude seeing Mbappe sulk and being a sore loser, especially after what he said about South American teams.
Mbappe and Giroud act too cocky, always have a face on like they're the stars of a show and the camera's on them, and a lot of the time don't feel like they're playing for the team or as a team.
Argentina on the other hand acts as the sum of a machine's parts. And though Messi is a star, he doesn't act like it on the field, appears grateful for his team, and plays as a member of a team.
Super happy Argentina won, happy to have seen the SK vs Portugal match, and happy to have seen Morocco's games. But also happy to see Mbappe sit and pout even after pulling off a hat-trick in the final game of the world cup lol
Mbappe and Giroud act too cocky, always have a face on like they're the stars of a show and the camera's on them, and a lot of the time don't feel like they're playing for the team or as a team.
Argentina on the other hand acts as the sum of a machine's parts. And though Messi is a star, he doesn't act like it on the field, appears grateful for his team, and plays as a member of a team.
Super happy Argentina won, happy to have seen the SK vs Portugal match, and happy to have seen Morocco's games. But also happy to see Mbappe sit and pout even after pulling off a hat-trick in the final game of the world cup lol
I’m also happy for Argentina, but I didn’t find Mbappe’s words any offensive. It is true that european teams are generally stronger.
dakiol(3)
Messi has by far one of the worst attitudes I’ve ever seen in a star player so I have no idea where this is coming from. He was petulant, nasty, and classless at various times throughout this very tournament.
You must've been watching from a different universe in the multiverse then. Messi was class in the tournament and only responded "nastily" to the Netherlands since they were playing dirty and running their mouths disrespectfully. If you come at the King, you best not miss.
We watched two different tournaments then
> Wow, greatest ever final!
Meh, a penalty series spoils the nature of the game.
Meh, a penalty series spoils the nature of the game.
After 2hrs of unhealthy heart rate that penalty shootout was cathartic. I might be biased by Argentina winning though..
Me and some friends doubted whether Messi had it in him to last the full 120, but he lasted. Good on them, a fantastic victory and an exciting game :)
He was definitely standing and walking a little more in those overtimes.
On the contrary, it amps up the intensity to the zenith. Penalty shootouts are brilliant entertainment and a great way to finish the game if tied after Extra Time.
You already had 3 of the 6 regular goals come from penalty kicks, and Messi/Mbappe get to kick them regardless of whether they were the fouled player. Absolutely seems that PKs are the dominant path to victory, I have to imagine the sports analytics community starting to focus on best strategies to maximize PKs rather than traditional goal-scoring.
This game was exceptional. Most games don't have any penalties.
"In Europe’s top five leagues, 10.41% of the goals were scored from penalties"
https://www.driblab.com/driblab-en/how-significant-are-penal...
"In Europe’s top five leagues, 10.41% of the goals were scored from penalties"
https://www.driblab.com/driblab-en/how-significant-are-penal...
Perhaps. But when the world was watching, Messi scored a PK in the quarter-final, the semi-final, and the final.
If I am coaching a national team, I am studying every game in this tournament and learning exactly what characteristics, what combo of players, what scenarios are most likely to generate PKs and going all-in with that strategy. Maybe Argentina's coach already did.
If I am coaching a national team, I am studying every game in this tournament and learning exactly what characteristics, what combo of players, what scenarios are most likely to generate PKs and going all-in with that strategy. Maybe Argentina's coach already did.
If you follow soccer you will know that diving in the box trying to get a PK is a thing since… I don’t know, PKs were added to the rule? Seriously though, I’ve seen my share of games where a player had a good chance of scoring but decide to dive and try to get a PK instead. These days, with VAR, it might not work as well as it did before.
I don't follow soccer and never will. Messi is clearly an all-time great, maybe the GOAT, but that doesn't change the fact that the penalty kicks introduce too much randomness and a lot of "punishment doesn't fit the crime." Plus the fact that Messi or Mbappe get to shoot the PK even if they weren't fouled. That's why "hack-a-Shaq" was a legit strategy, Shaq had to actually shoot the free throws despite being the worst on his team at it.
There is a story that when penalties were first introduced they were seem as unfair by both players and goalkeepers. That was because at the time, the box (or perhaps just the penalty line) used to run from side to side. Rumor has it that players, because of that sense of unfairness, would miss the penalty on purpose.
Eventually the box was reduced and now penalties are a (99%) sure way of scoring.
I don’t know why you mentioned Messi and etc., I was replying to what you said about trying to optimize for PKs during a game.
Eventually the box was reduced and now penalties are a (99%) sure way of scoring.
I don’t know why you mentioned Messi and etc., I was replying to what you said about trying to optimize for PKs during a game.
but after 120mins of play, somehow they have to make a decision.
A better approach I've heard someone coin is: after 90 minutes, you start taking away one player from both teams, every 5 minutes.
I think that's a pretty bad idea - the objective is for a team to win, having to tear apart your team every five minutes would be a very complex and niche tactical meta to master and will result in an incredibly slow paced game as lungs tire when teams get down to 7-8 players each. If teams are on even terms after 90 minutes, and cannot break the deadlock after 30 minutes of Extra Time then they're as evenly matched as possible and therefore deserve a way to win that doesn't break them physically. Whether or not they can handle it mentally is another matter [casts an eye towards England...]
I can say that as a player I can stomach a loss on penalties, I wouldn't say that I enjoy taking them but I could handle it. I would absolutely detest the idea of playing Extra Time with my teammates disappearing every few minutes.
Edit: hope it doesn’t sound like I was having a go at you for raising this proposal! On the contrary, I find it interesting when people want to tweak the game in creative ways and talk about it!
I can say that as a player I can stomach a loss on penalties, I wouldn't say that I enjoy taking them but I could handle it. I would absolutely detest the idea of playing Extra Time with my teammates disappearing every few minutes.
Edit: hope it doesn’t sound like I was having a go at you for raising this proposal! On the contrary, I find it interesting when people want to tweak the game in creative ways and talk about it!
>I think that's a pretty bad idea - the objective is for a team to win
And a series of static 1v1s is more accurate than a series of 10v10s, 9v9s and so on?
People have criticized chess for pretty much the same thing wrt tie breakers for world championship, classic chess being decided by player's proficiency in a very different format and decision making.
I'm not saying I support the diminishing player count, but perhaps penalties should be deferred until another (3rd total) added extra time in the final match only. Maybe give the teams 2 extra subs if it is still tied after 2nd AET.
And a series of static 1v1s is more accurate than a series of 10v10s, 9v9s and so on?
People have criticized chess for pretty much the same thing wrt tie breakers for world championship, classic chess being decided by player's proficiency in a very different format and decision making.
I'm not saying I support the diminishing player count, but perhaps penalties should be deferred until another (3rd total) added extra time in the final match only. Maybe give the teams 2 extra subs if it is still tied after 2nd AET.
Yeah I honestly think it is - some extra time to try to get an edge then a series of set pieces where ultimately if they’re evenly matched everyone, even the goalkeepers, could end up taking a pen.
There’s no easy way to handle a situation like this, but utilising an already integral component of the game like penalties is probably the fairest solution, and it helps that it’s the one with the most excitement and drama for those watching. It could be much worse, before penalties a literal coin toss was used. If recall correctly teams made it thru to the European Cup (what the Champions League used to be called) final based on a coin toss
There’s no easy way to handle a situation like this, but utilising an already integral component of the game like penalties is probably the fairest solution, and it helps that it’s the one with the most excitement and drama for those watching. It could be much worse, before penalties a literal coin toss was used. If recall correctly teams made it thru to the European Cup (what the Champions League used to be called) final based on a coin toss
I don't know if that means the better "team" wins, but if that's the point I think is up for debate too...
Having said that in the US college hockey they do a 3 on 3 overtime. In contrast to a typical 5 v 5 game it is INTENSE. Crowd is on the edge of their seat and so on. Suddenly it's like some back yard / local ice rink where kids just get together to play style game.
It's still the same game as far as the players go, but just more space and a great pass or move to shake a defender / goal keeper is huge.
I don't know if that's the best route to go, but it really is exciting and I prefer it to shootouts by far.
Having said that in the US college hockey they do a 3 on 3 overtime. In contrast to a typical 5 v 5 game it is INTENSE. Crowd is on the edge of their seat and so on. Suddenly it's like some back yard / local ice rink where kids just get together to play style game.
It's still the same game as far as the players go, but just more space and a great pass or move to shake a defender / goal keeper is huge.
I don't know if that's the best route to go, but it really is exciting and I prefer it to shootouts by far.
Interesting!
> I don't know if that means the better "team" wins, but if that's the point I think is up for debate too...
Of course you should keep in mind that if you want the better team to win with a p-value of e.g. < 0.001, then you will have to play hundreds of games ...
> I don't know if that means the better "team" wins, but if that's the point I think is up for debate too...
Of course you should keep in mind that if you want the better team to win with a p-value of e.g. < 0.001, then you will have to play hundreds of games ...
Yeah more so in such a low scoring sport I imagine where rando outcomes are possible?
It's a constant discussion I have where folks talk about a playoff is there to determine the best team but ... that's not really how it works. Having said that, I'd rather not see an endless "regular season" where we just tally up stats and everyone just goes home after playing a ho hum game and happy that they're statistical champs ...
I like playoffs, it produces those extraordinary moments of greatness that we seem to want in sports.
It's a constant discussion I have where folks talk about a playoff is there to determine the best team but ... that's not really how it works. Having said that, I'd rather not see an endless "regular season" where we just tally up stats and everyone just goes home after playing a ho hum game and happy that they're statistical champs ...
I like playoffs, it produces those extraordinary moments of greatness that we seem to want in sports.
This is the quintessential American take on soccer. It's ok if you're not a soccer fan. Soccer doesn't need to be like hockey or basketball, where teams can be dogshit for most of the season and still wind up as champions.
I don’t know what the definition of dogshit is here but generally that’s not how it works… even to get into the playoffs..
They could add an additional ball instead - every 5 minutes. Would be much funnier to watch.
You would need an extra referee per extra ball.
Every 5 seconds and no stopping time
But they already do just that: you have a finite number of players, a finite number of subs, and each player has a finite amount of stamina.
And if no more players are on the field and it is still a tie then what?
How do you decide that?
In reality, they end up being like 140 mins.
(45+5)+(45+10)+(15+15+5)
(45+5)+(45+10)+(15+15+5)
Remember that additional 20 minutes is added because it's actually time they spent not playing. So in reality they're now playing a full 90 or 120 minutes after having in the past possibly played only 75 or 100.
And even those 20 min of injury time are probably waaayyy less than the time the game was actually on hold for due to injuries or other shenanigans.
Unfortunately TV time slots are so strict, that getting actual 90+30 min of game time cannot really be a thing anymore.
Thus, strategies to waste time dominate, much to the frustration of everyone except the winning team
Unfortunately TV time slots are so strict, that getting actual 90+30 min of game time cannot really be a thing anymore.
Thus, strategies to waste time dominate, much to the frustration of everyone except the winning team
I think TV channels deliberately schedule optional shit after these kinds of games, the thinking being that the pundits can fill time to the next nearest half-hour slot begins then the schedule can resume
instead, if it's a draw after 90 minutes, just played until someone scores a goal.
They tried that, look up Golden Goal. Most people agreed it was a bad idea.
It's as if half of the people commenting here watched a soccer game for the first time today, lol. That's fine and all, but it's incredibly unlikely that a neophyte has all the solutions.
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They may as well have literally flipped a 70.3/29.7 weighted coin 10 times.
I walked out of the pub in disgust.
I walked out of the pub in disgust.
Some goalkeepers are better. Some players are better. Both can be tired, or nervous. Each flip has a different weight. Anyway, people underestimate the amount of randomness in penalties.
Just flip a coin.
Will give enough incentive to try and win, but also be fair to both if there's a tie.
Will give enough incentive to try and win, but also be fair to both if there's a tie.
Oh yeah, that would have been SO much better and less controversial than a shootout. What a great way to end 120 minutes of people pouring their heart out. A coin flip
But teams are on par - so either crown them both or choose randomly.
Penalties is just a more elaborate form of a coin flip, still largely random.
Penalties is just a more elaborate form of a coin flip, still largely random.
If penalties were truly random then teams wouldn't practice them. Goalkeepers wouldn't study their opponents' past penalties or use cheatsheets when facing kicks. There wouldn't be so much analysis and game theory poured into the perfect sequencing of kick-takers.
It's true that penalties test fewer skills than a full-fledged game of football. But they are still a contest of skill, not a game of chance.
It's true that penalties test fewer skills than a full-fledged game of football. But they are still a contest of skill, not a game of chance.
People are not robots. Penalties do test the nerves of both teams. And besides, the feeling of fairness is more important than actual fairness in football. We don't watch it to get a perfectly stat driven understanding of the game, but because it's fun and emotional.
Penalties are not random at all. There is a reason why some teams suck big time on penalties while others nail them all the time (or almost always, depending on the generation, players, etc).
I meant "random" is a sense that it doesn't really reflect which team is the best in the world. Penalties is a player-specific skill, but the football is a team sport first and foremost and the world champion status should reflect that.
If all that matters is to recognize the best team, then why bother with a knockoit stage, or even a world cup tournament? Just collate stats. The point is to play the game, and if both teams are evenly matched in regular play, to move to an acceptable tiebreaker so that someone wins. France has still come a very close 2nd place, which the tournament does reflect.
It is random, it’s definitely not as random as a coin flip
France were poor up until the 75th min then showed up. Argentina thought it was in the bag at 2-0 but then France did what France do. Messi was a passenger from the 2nd half on and was out of steam in ET. France blew it late in ET with two golden chances. Winning on penalties is a crap shoot so down to luck. Mbappe was really the star of this WC Final dragging France back from the brink and nearly getting them over the line. Messi didn't have a great game from HT.
“Mbappe was really the star of this WC Final”
This is the narrative, but it’s far from reality. Mbappe was invisible for 80 minutes, his refusal to track back and defend in part the reason France were forced to sub off Giroud and move Mbappe into the centre.
He scored two penalties, admittedly that requires nerves of steel but it’s not particularly impressive given they’ve a high xG, and scored an excellent second goal.
Typically players are judged on their quality throughout the entire game, not a moment of quality in an otherwise drab performance, but this seems to be the modern way - the highlights are more important.
To that end Messi was involved in everything, created the second goal with an excellent through ball into space, scored twice, and set up numerous chances that Martinez was unable to finish. A far more impactful performance.
This is the narrative, but it’s far from reality. Mbappe was invisible for 80 minutes, his refusal to track back and defend in part the reason France were forced to sub off Giroud and move Mbappe into the centre.
He scored two penalties, admittedly that requires nerves of steel but it’s not particularly impressive given they’ve a high xG, and scored an excellent second goal.
Typically players are judged on their quality throughout the entire game, not a moment of quality in an otherwise drab performance, but this seems to be the modern way - the highlights are more important.
To that end Messi was involved in everything, created the second goal with an excellent through ball into space, scored twice, and set up numerous chances that Martinez was unable to finish. A far more impactful performance.
If we're gonna go that route then Emi deserves the hero title just for that save at 120+3'.. not just for how important it was, but how unlikely it was and what followed after.
It was a vital stop, and he absolutely deserved the golden glove over Lloris for it.
I’m not sure I see how it counters my argument though - had Martinez let everything past him for the first 80 minutes (not that France actually had a shot during that time, but hypothetically) whilst an excellent Argentine attack kept it level, that save alone wouldn’t cement greatness as the rest of his performance was subpar.
This is essentially the crux of my argument regarding Mbappe, he was far too quiet for far too long and didn’t play for the team often enough to deserve such plaudits.
I’m not sure I see how it counters my argument though - had Martinez let everything past him for the first 80 minutes (not that France actually had a shot during that time, but hypothetically) whilst an excellent Argentine attack kept it level, that save alone wouldn’t cement greatness as the rest of his performance was subpar.
This is essentially the crux of my argument regarding Mbappe, he was far too quiet for far too long and didn’t play for the team often enough to deserve such plaudits.
Yes, you're right :) I'm still just star struck with how well he did the whole tournament, is all.
I see what you were trying to say now, yes he was excellent and will go down in Argentine history thanks to his heroics in both the Copa and World Cup wins.
The second penalty was a hand ball blocking Mbappes excellent looking strike so I’d only take half a point off of that
> "Messi was a passenger from the 2nd half on and was out of steam in ET"
He scored a bloody goal in ET!
He scored a bloody goal in ET!
I am convinced everyone is watching a different game in every country at this point.
The problem with Messi is that he looks like the is watching the grass grow, or a butterfly or something. And then he makes a goal, sometimes a great goal.
Other players have a more fighting image, and they run here and there, and scream, and look more connected to the game.
The choice a nice fighting image or almost a goal per game.
Edit: YouTube just suggested me https://www.youtube.com/shorts/b6qBbLxP53s
Other players have a more fighting image, and they run here and there, and scream, and look more connected to the game.
The choice a nice fighting image or almost a goal per game.
Edit: YouTube just suggested me https://www.youtube.com/shorts/b6qBbLxP53s
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As an England fan, I didn't think they were that good against us, England were the better side who just couldn't convert. The ref helped them a lot, their first goal came after they fouled an England player and they didn't even get the ball when doing so. Overall they don't actually look world cup winners playing us.
Neither did Argentina against Saudi Arabia.
It was not luck, it was Dibu [1] at the end. He is not lucky, he is an ace. Also Messi is 35 while Mbappe is 23.
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emiliano_Mart%C3%ADnez
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emiliano_Mart%C3%ADnez
Penalties are always pot luck. Also, Mbappe has now score four times in two WC Finals. Not bad for a 23yo.
Partly luck sure, but Emi's gotten into his opponents heads quite well, if you've seen his other penalty shootouts (.. so many this WC). The little "shoot the ball away" tactic did cause the unforced error from.. one of the French players, cba to look it up.
> Mbappe has now score four times in two WC Finals. Not bad for a 23yo.
Yeah absolutely, he's taking the record for sure. He carried the team on his back. Messi's been doing that for longer though.
> Mbappe has now score four times in two WC Finals. Not bad for a 23yo.
Yeah absolutely, he's taking the record for sure. He carried the team on his back. Messi's been doing that for longer though.
France were pathetic up to that point. I remember there were 0 shots on target for like 3/4th of the game. That really shouldn't have happened in a world cup final.
Finally not having Benzema (and Pogba) caught up to them. Giroud was completely useless when they don’t control the game
I thought it was more not having Kante than Pogba or Benzema. Argentina faced little to no pressure in the midfield and the only times France could really muster an attack it came through the wing-backs (namely Hernandez and then Camavinga) or even their centerhalves (Upamecano) were pushing forward and playing line-breaking passes.
France surrendered the midfield from the get-go. That midfield was key to their counter-attacking game in 2018.
France surrendered the midfield from the get-go. That midfield was key to their counter-attacking game in 2018.
Mbappe is like a combination of Ronaldo Nazario and Thierry Henry. He needs to stay injury-free, however. And at some point he will need to adapt his game to account for the eventual loss of pace that comes with age.
Mbappe is amazing, great, awesome player, hope he keep getting better and play again, this sport is like this, you can get back and win where you've once lost.
Most exciting player I've ever seen on a football pitch. Messi is better but for pure entertainment value no one beats mbappe right now
If scoring a goal is “out of steam”, what is full of steam for you? Hah
That goal was from a rebound, not as impressive as Mbappe's second goal which also happened because Messi lost possession rather lazily. And seriously Messi was literally walking even when the Argentinians were attacking. It really felt Messi was out of steam. He lost possession a lot, couldn't convert atleast two opportunities even though he got into the D and shot at the center of the goal right where the keeper was standing in the final minutes in extra time. Messi is a legend, but today Mbappe outshone him.
Definitely one of the best World Cup finals ever. Even 1/2 finals were too good. Argentina deserved their win, I missed di Maria when they replaced him, and when it was 2:2, he couldn't be there when he was needed the most. The Polish referee did amazing job as well, one must say.
Having watched every possible minute of every competition since France '98, I haven't seen any of this World Cup.
It still boggles my mind that FIFA weren't forced to overturn the decision when they were uncovered as the most corrupt organisation to ever have existed.
It still boggles my mind that FIFA weren't forced to overturn the decision when they were uncovered as the most corrupt organisation to ever have existed.
You don't know what you missed buddy, feel sorry for you.
Yes, Lionel Messi is impossible: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34038357
Now, Maradona is indisputably not alone.
Now, Maradona is indisputably not alone.
Maradona has no close second from his country.
It's hard to have a second when Maradona himself is second. Statistically, Messi is better. Trophy-wise, Messi is better. The only area where they come close is style of play since they are both dribbling playmaking forwards.
Messi himself would tell that you're wrong, stats or no stats. Just look at this photo link [1], you've got one of the best forwards in the history of Argentinian football, Kun Aguero, carrying Messi on his shoulders just to reproduce, as an homage, that iconic Diego photo from 1986. Diego is a religion in Argentina (and not only).
[1] https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FkSY4BDWQAEug3L?format=jpg&name=...
[1] https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FkSY4BDWQAEug3L?format=jpg&name=...
Spartans are considered to be top -tier warriors of ancient world, while in the reality their actual military record is, at best, very average among their peers [0]. But they were extremely good with the PR, and have a cerrain cult following.
[0]: https://acoup.blog/2019/09/20/collections-this-isnt-sparta-p...
[0]: https://acoup.blog/2019/09/20/collections-this-isnt-sparta-p...
As argentinian i'm very happy because the team was awesome, very nice people, very good players and excellent final match against the last wc champion.
One thing that made me even happier is now i will be planning the 2026WC because at least 10 americans wants to go to see it.
One thing that made me even happier is now i will be planning the 2026WC because at least 10 americans wants to go to see it.
I quit football a few years ago but I have to admit that this final game was exciting and full of "suspense" (I couldn't completely ignore it, I watched the extra time and penalties). I would like to cite a few facts..
1. Since the 2002 world cup in Japan/Korea, every time, if the winner is European , it got kicked out in the next tournament in the first round. 2002(France), 2010(Italy), 2014(Spain) and 2018(Germany). however, France broke the rule this time and almost won the title!
2. France had lost two finals in its history, both were in penalties (Today, and in 2006 against Italy).
3. Both Argentina and France have won the title two times so far. Argentina won the coveted trophy in 1978 and 1986 while France achieved glory in 1998 and 2018. So this final is: for whom the 3rd trophy goes? it turns out to be Argentina
4. France had the chance to join Italy (1934, 1938) and Brazil (1958,1962) to be the 3rd Team to win two World Cups successively, but failed.
1. Since the 2002 world cup in Japan/Korea, every time, if the winner is European , it got kicked out in the next tournament in the first round. 2002(France), 2010(Italy), 2014(Spain) and 2018(Germany). however, France broke the rule this time and almost won the title!
2. France had lost two finals in its history, both were in penalties (Today, and in 2006 against Italy).
3. Both Argentina and France have won the title two times so far. Argentina won the coveted trophy in 1978 and 1986 while France achieved glory in 1998 and 2018. So this final is: for whom the 3rd trophy goes? it turns out to be Argentina
4. France had the chance to join Italy (1934, 1938) and Brazil (1958,1962) to be the 3rd Team to win two World Cups successively, but failed.
Argentina dominated most of the game up until France scored. Was a very fun game to watch.
I'm pretty sure Argentina's 3rd goal should have been revoked after a VAR review. Messi looks off-side for the second to last pass that starts the play. I assume VAR reviewed the ball on the goal line and the last pass but didn't look at the pass that started the play right before?
I wish the reviews were televised. We get to see the referees making decisions, why not the VAR communication too?
I'm pretty sure Argentina's 3rd goal should have been revoked after a VAR review. Messi looks off-side for the second to last pass that starts the play. I assume VAR reviewed the ball on the goal line and the last pass but didn't look at the pass that started the play right before?
I wish the reviews were televised. We get to see the referees making decisions, why not the VAR communication too?
On the feed I was watching it showed that only attacker's hand was passed the line. Hands and feet are exempted for the offside rule.
Hands are exempt, feet (and any body part you can score with) are not exempt from offsides.
My feed only showed analysis of the last pass. In your feed, did they review the previous pass too?
https://streamff.com/v/QEoL1wzkAo
Messi was offside on the initial pass to Martinez (which you can't really see in the clip because of the close-up shot) but was back onside by the time Martinez passed it back to Messi (which you do see). So it's a good goal.
They did replay the entire sequence on the US Fox broadcast without the close-up.
Messi was offside on the initial pass to Martinez (which you can't really see in the clip because of the close-up shot) but was back onside by the time Martinez passed it back to Messi (which you do see). So it's a good goal.
They did replay the entire sequence on the US Fox broadcast without the close-up.
What is it with americans and "our football" this year? :) Looks like the US is way more into football than i thought. Everyone seemed so taken with Messi. But the truth is the MVP of this final is Mbappé
Mbappe hardly did anything in the first 80 minutes of the game though. But yeah he still outshone everybody else.
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Totally agree. Mbappe was the MVP today for sure.
Only because Di Maria went off after an hour.
Truth be told if he was he MVP they would have won. Instead he contributed substantially to France being down 0-2 in the first place, a deficit if they were without they would have won handily. His defensive work rate was worse than Messi who is 12 years his senior and has one foot out the door to retirement already. This caused Giroud to be swapped out and Mbappe to be moved more centrally so they could make up for his unwillingness to track back. Arguably this was also why Di Maria was able to completely savage the left wing, forcing the penalty out of Dembele.
He scored when he got the ball and that is great but he isn't yet the complete player that Messi is. Messi got the MVP today because he won the match for his team, through yes, a goal and a penalty but more importantly through drawing out space for Di Maria to generate the opportunities that created that initial lead.
He scored when he got the ball and that is great but he isn't yet the complete player that Messi is. Messi got the MVP today because he won the match for his team, through yes, a goal and a penalty but more importantly through drawing out space for Di Maria to generate the opportunities that created that initial lead.
I was in Berlin for the last World Cup. It was delightful
to experience it like that.
This time I tracked it and really enjoyed the whole thing. The finals was the only game I was able watch in full and it was everything I hoped it would be.
Argentina’s second goal was just the best.
This time I tracked it and really enjoyed the whole thing. The finals was the only game I was able watch in full and it was everything I hoped it would be.
Argentina’s second goal was just the best.
Argentina wins, but I'm not sure if the guys hosting it (spit) have accrued any goodwill after all the deaths and abuses they inflicted on poor migrants to get their way.
And news just in, they tried to buy off the VP of the European Union last week too.
And news just in, they tried to buy off the VP of the European Union last week too.
> VP of the European Union
There is no such thing. The corrupted person was a VP of the European Parliament, one of the 3 governing bodies of the EU.
There is no such thing. The corrupted person was a VP of the European Parliament, one of the 3 governing bodies of the EU.
Predicted by Supercomputer 52 days ago..zero comments...shame on you HN :-))
"Supercomputer Predicts Argentina Wins 2022 World Cup" - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33356979
"Supercomputer Predicts Argentina Wins 2022 World Cup" - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33356979
It was a great final, exciting and fun to watch, at least towards the end. As a World Cup edition, though, I found it a disappointing one. It might be that the unusual season when it was played made physical skills more important than usual, not sure. It was difficult to find good, modern football though (beside maybe with Brazil, but they self sabotaged them in a few minutes folly). In general, it seemed that the whole world wanted Messi to win and we eventually had that.
The fact that the two (possibly three) top players of the tournament played for the same club is something to ponder about I feel.
The fact that the two (possibly three) top players of the tournament played for the same club is something to ponder about I feel.
This World Cup has seen some of the best football for decades. It helps that the players aren’t knackered after a full season.
As someone who works in football statistics, it will be sad when we have to move on to a more rigorous form of model evaluation than “is Messi at the top?”
Absolutely legendary game.
it was an incredible game. Argentina was cruising along nicely till 79mins and then the penalty happened and a minute later an equalizer. who would have thought that. followed by an engaging 30mins of overtime. wow. as a neutral, it was entertaining. Happy for Messi.
Argentina fan here. I was too young to really remember their victory in 1986. Saw them lose in the 1990 and 2014 finals. Can't tell you what it means to win today.
I went through hell but I feel like I watched a truly extraordinary match. Maybe the best ever? The drama, the changes in fortune, Messi finally doing it, emulating Maradona in 1986, Mbappe getting a hat trick and not being on the winning side. The game was also a handing of the flame of world's greatest to Mbappe and, of course, the completion of Messi's trophy cabinet.
It was clash of the titans, Mbappe vs Messi. Fifa and the Qataris could not have scripted a better final. Unreal. I'm still in shock hours later.
I went through hell but I feel like I watched a truly extraordinary match. Maybe the best ever? The drama, the changes in fortune, Messi finally doing it, emulating Maradona in 1986, Mbappe getting a hat trick and not being on the winning side. The game was also a handing of the flame of world's greatest to Mbappe and, of course, the completion of Messi's trophy cabinet.
It was clash of the titans, Mbappe vs Messi. Fifa and the Qataris could not have scripted a better final. Unreal. I'm still in shock hours later.
It's strange because we had like 4 or 5 ways to see it, and each one has a different delay. So I can hears the goals like 30 seconds before it's in mytv
Messi did it! The ultimate GOAT finally got it before retirement!
I will remember this game for a long time. The dramatic twists and turns are so memorable.
I will remember this game for a long time. The dramatic twists and turns are so memorable.
Interesting mind-centric game. Up until the penalties, where the Argentinian goal keeper managed to get ahead psychologically it seems.
Great, great game, France was superb, we won the cup but both teams played very well. Just incredible.
We went in expecting nothing. But honestly despite whoever won this was the most exciting football World Cup final that my friends and I ever watched together. Loved the experience. What a match.
Messi goes home a warrior. What an incredible game!
both Messi and Mbappe play for the same qatari owned team back in france, qatar is the biggest world cup winner here
[deleted]
That was some brilliant footie!
Congratulations on all the hard work that made this possible!
I mean the work of the quasi-enslaved migrant laborers who built the stadiums in 100-degree heat, of course. But I'm sure Argentina put in plenty of effort too.
I mean the work of the quasi-enslaved migrant laborers who built the stadiums in 100-degree heat, of course. But I'm sure Argentina put in plenty of effort too.
Harsh for France but Argentina deserved it
Two biggest news in the world of any football today: 1) Argentina winning the World Cup (congratulations!), and 2) Tom Brady winning for Bengals.
Does it bug anyone else that they don't play enough games to actually reasonably determine 2nd and 3rd place among the 4 semi-finalists?
The current system of having two teams that win in the semi-finals play a game to determine the final winner, and the two teams that lose in the semi-finals play a third place play-off only actually determines who is 1st (the winner of the final) and who is 4th (the loser of the third place play off).
In years like this one, where the winner of the third play play-off (Croatia) loses in the semi-finals to the eventual winner of the final (Argentina), we get no information on how they compare to the loser of the final (France).
In years where the winner of the third place play off played the loser of the final in the semi-finals, we then do have enough information to rank all 4. The winner of the finals is #1 with no losses, the loser of the final and the winner of the third place play-off both have 1 loss, but they played each other in the final so we can order them, giving the loser of the final 2nd place, the winner of the third place play-off 3rd place, and the loser of that 4th place.
In years like this one, we are missing that game between the loser of the final and the winner of the third place playoff, who both have 1 loss, to order them, so all we can reasonable say this year is Argentina is in 1st, France and Croatia are 2nd and 3rd but we don't know which is which, and Morocco is 4th.
I suppose as a practical matter they don't want to have a France/Croatia game to figure it out because that game would come after the final and they want the final to be the last. But why not determine who gets 2nd and who gets 3rd by applying the tie breaks they use in the group stage?
The current system of having two teams that win in the semi-finals play a game to determine the final winner, and the two teams that lose in the semi-finals play a third place play-off only actually determines who is 1st (the winner of the final) and who is 4th (the loser of the third place play off).
In years like this one, where the winner of the third play play-off (Croatia) loses in the semi-finals to the eventual winner of the final (Argentina), we get no information on how they compare to the loser of the final (France).
In years where the winner of the third place play off played the loser of the final in the semi-finals, we then do have enough information to rank all 4. The winner of the finals is #1 with no losses, the loser of the final and the winner of the third place play-off both have 1 loss, but they played each other in the final so we can order them, giving the loser of the final 2nd place, the winner of the third place play-off 3rd place, and the loser of that 4th place.
In years like this one, we are missing that game between the loser of the final and the winner of the third place playoff, who both have 1 loss, to order them, so all we can reasonable say this year is Argentina is in 1st, France and Croatia are 2nd and 3rd but we don't know which is which, and Morocco is 4th.
I suppose as a practical matter they don't want to have a France/Croatia game to figure it out because that game would come after the final and they want the final to be the last. But why not determine who gets 2nd and who gets 3rd by applying the tie breaks they use in the group stage?
I don't think most of the players really care. Watch the body language of France after they lost: second means nothing to them. Some of them ripped their medal off as soon as they got it.
World CUP
Edit: thanks for the change
Edit: thanks for the change
Messi the GOAT!
Go Messi!
Check-mate
*the MALE Football World Cup
Isn't it the world cup where both genders are allowed but women don't make it into the teams because their bodies aren't as performant when brought to the limit? I don't think there's a rule disallowing women, is there?
Lol
Given there is no female World Cup this year this is a little bit petty no? Im guessing you didn’t know that though because you don’t watch it.
Given there is no female World Cup this year this is a little bit petty no? Im guessing you didn’t know that though because you don’t watch it.
"World Soccer Championship"? Are we in some football simulator game that doesn't have a license to use the real name of the competition?
It is colloquially called the Football (or Soccer) World Cup. The official name is the FIFA World Cup.
I was rooting for France, but congrats to Argentina and Messi.
Edit: Thank you to whoever changed the title.
It is colloquially called the Football (or Soccer) World Cup. The official name is the FIFA World Cup.
I was rooting for France, but congrats to Argentina and Messi.
Edit: Thank you to whoever changed the title.
Argentina Wins also would have been fine. The whole world knows what’s happening today.
And half the world knows why people are getting in to the office late tomorrow.
>The whole world knows what’s happening today.
Not entirely sure if that is true in North America, both Canada and USA.
Not entirely sure if that is true in North America, both Canada and USA.
It certainly is true in Montréal. There is a huge french diaspora here, but immigrants in general have been closely following the WC. That has also been making soccer a lot more popular amongst non immigrants, and I see a lot more quebecers following the world cup than even 4 years ago. It's just such a ridiculously catchy event, even for a lot of those who usually don't like soccer in general.
It’s everywhere in the USA (coasts, anyway) and Canada. Flags on cars, matches on TV, etc. Both countries being in the tournament helps.
Barely noticed in Seattle. If it wasn't for coworkers and the internet I would have missed it completely.
“If it wasn’t for hearing about it, I wouldn’t have heard about it.” ;-)
The people who were talking about it are not in Seattle. Which is interesting as we're one of the host cities for the next one, you'd think there would be pre hype.
If I was in a Seattle only bubble without friends from over seas or who immigrated yes I would not have seen or heard about the world cup.
Maybe if it was on after 1pm here I'd have seen it in a bar, but nope watched a sun belt conference Duluth trading bowl game instead.
If I was in a Seattle only bubble without friends from over seas or who immigrated yes I would not have seen or heard about the world cup.
Maybe if it was on after 1pm here I'd have seen it in a bar, but nope watched a sun belt conference Duluth trading bowl game instead.
I wouldn't have known I didn't hear about it
Pretty much irrelevant where I am at. It wasn't even on a main TV station and then they cut the coverage to go to NFL coverage right after the penalty kicks.
The biggest problem is that soccer and American football are both Fall sports in American high school. A great athlete needs a special love for soccer to not end up playing on the American football team. American football in high school has all the prestige.
Christian Pulisic is a great example. If he has a different upbringing there is a good chance he is playing American Football as a wide receiver.
The biggest problem is that soccer and American football are both Fall sports in American high school. A great athlete needs a special love for soccer to not end up playing on the American football team. American football in high school has all the prestige.
Christian Pulisic is a great example. If he has a different upbringing there is a good chance he is playing American Football as a wide receiver.
I don’t know anyone who follows soccer.
Title changed.
haunter(1)
Men's World Cup
Here in the U.S. this is also the main women's event.
(The women's team will receive more money from the men's team as charity this year than they will earn in the next women's world cup, even if they win it.)
(The women's team will receive more money from the men's team as charity this year than they will earn in the next women's world cup, even if they win it.)
Is there any other world cup going on right now?
It can be safely implied from context when one is orders of magnitude bigger than the other.
The one with the most audience, I guess. By far.
There's no such thing as a men's World Cup, women are allowed to play too.
You'll have a very hard time finding any women playing at this level though.
You'll have a very hard time finding any women playing at this level though.
Nope. Per Wikipedia:
> The FIFA World Cup, often simply called the World Cup, is an international association football competition contested by the senior men's national teams of the members of the Fédération Internationale de Football Association (FIFA), the sport's global governing body.
> The FIFA World Cup, often simply called the World Cup, is an international association football competition contested by the senior men's national teams of the members of the Fédération Internationale de Football Association (FIFA), the sport's global governing body.
And from the relevant FIFA regulations:
“For FIFA men’s competitions, only men are eligible to play. For FIFA women’s competitions, only men are eligible to play.”
https://digitalhub.fifa.com/m/3950e57162ea513d/original/ihf3...
And indeed there are no unisex competitions.
>FIFA competitions are separated for men and women. This separation must be safeguarded and protected.
I messed up here by trusting the first results on google while searching "can women play in the world cup" which brought up a bunch of Quora results saying that they can. I was a bit too eager to believe them because this is a thing in many other sports.
>FIFA competitions are separated for men and women. This separation must be safeguarded and protected.
I messed up here by trusting the first results on google while searching "can women play in the world cup" which brought up a bunch of Quora results saying that they can. I was a bit too eager to believe them because this is a thing in many other sports.
What about a golden retriever?
Yeah. Happy for messi the Goat.
Game felt staged and considering the stakes...have a feeling it was fixed. But Im likelt wrong and I hope I am.
Miracles happen in football - like Liecester City lifting the EPL, a moment etched in the history of the sport. Croatia and Morrocco are warriors, happy for them too.
Game felt staged and considering the stakes...have a feeling it was fixed. But Im likelt wrong and I hope I am.
Miracles happen in football - like Liecester City lifting the EPL, a moment etched in the history of the sport. Croatia and Morrocco are warriors, happy for them too.
I hate soccer word, americans must always be different and call 'football' a game you play with hands.
“Soccer” comes from the original name of the game: “Association Football” - a game whose rules were set by the “Football Association” back in 1863.
From WP: Soccer was a term used by the upper class whereas the working and middle classes preferred the word "football"; as the upper class lost influence in British society from the 1960s on, "football" supplanted "soccer" as the most commonly used and accepted word.
From WP: Soccer was a term used by the upper class whereas the working and middle classes preferred the word "football"; as the upper class lost influence in British society from the 1960s on, "football" supplanted "soccer" as the most commonly used and accepted word.
It's not the fault of North American soccer fans that the international word for their game was already taken by another sport. What else are they supposed to do?
American football (gridiron) has the same roots as association football and rugby. They didn't randomly or illogically decide to call it "football"[1] when American universities first started playing it in the 19th century. Over time they changed rules to put more emphasis on throwing and catching, and less on kicking.
And Italy doesn't call it "football" either - they call it "calcio". What's your position on that?
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_American_football#F...
American football (gridiron) has the same roots as association football and rugby. They didn't randomly or illogically decide to call it "football"[1] when American universities first started playing it in the 19th century. Over time they changed rules to put more emphasis on throwing and catching, and less on kicking.
And Italy doesn't call it "football" either - they call it "calcio". What's your position on that?
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_American_football#F...
This is essentially flamebait. Different cultures use different words for lots of things. How is this discussion not tiresome and played out?
Concussionball isn’t as catchy
This comment is like low quality empty calories. This is a fake debate largely from misunderstanding and misinformation (which a sibling comment has already provided historical context). Can we just move on and talk about the game/match?
Of course I'm downvoted, best not to criticise american way of life on HN.
Yawn
And they don't even use spherical ball.
The plot twists we watched this time is just not common. It has been a long time since I watched such a good game and it will probably restore my feelings on watching football again. I think other Brazilians can say the same.
Thank you all who made this possible.
Disclaimer: I spent a few days in Argentina in 2011. That country and people have a special place in my heart. I learned to appreciate the sound of romance languages beyond Portuguese and took a respectful photo in Maradona's star. It is an emotional thing to see Messi make it in his last chance and Argentina get another title since 1986. Dieguito is no longer alone and I'm happy to see that in a way that is hard to explain.