The Case for Wearing Masks Forever(newyorker.com)
newyorker.com
The Case for Wearing Masks Forever
https://www.newyorker.com/news/annals-of-activism/the-case-for-wearing-masks-forever
56 comments
Why did we ever just accept colds and flus being so common? Many places have a general social expectation of masking if you have any symptoms of anything.
Do we know what the long term cumulative effects of normal seasonal illness is? What would happen if we were able to get rid of them?
Do we know what the long term cumulative effects of normal seasonal illness is? What would happen if we were able to get rid of them?
It would be great if we could rid ourselves of all disease. Unfortunately everybody wearing masks all the time forever won’t actually accomplish that that goal and is wildly impractical and unrealistic.
I don’t care if other people want to wear masks forever. That is their choice. I was happy to wear a mask when COVID was high in my area (rural, low population). I got my shots.
But this is absurd. If we can come up with a permanent vaccine for the flu and the common cold I’ll sign right up but as it is, I’m going to live a normal life unless/until things change.
I don’t care if other people want to wear masks forever. That is their choice. I was happy to wear a mask when COVID was high in my area (rural, low population). I got my shots.
But this is absurd. If we can come up with a permanent vaccine for the flu and the common cold I’ll sign right up but as it is, I’m going to live a normal life unless/until things change.
> Why did we ever just accept colds and flus being so common?
Is the number of illnesses that exists the only variable that matters in life?
Do we know what the long-term cumulative effects of forced masking does on childhood education and development? How about social cohesion and people forming bonds with the community? How about the overall impact on freedom?
Is the number of illnesses that exists the only variable that matters in life?
Do we know what the long-term cumulative effects of forced masking does on childhood education and development? How about social cohesion and people forming bonds with the community? How about the overall impact on freedom?
Many colds spread by fomites, so masking and distancing and all that will do fuck all. The flu doesn’t spread this way, so I do hope the culture of isolation continues for those with the flu and we at least massively reduce the spread there.
Wait, why do you think distancing won't slow transmission of infections that spread by surface contact?
If you are sick and don't sneeze on a stair railing because you aren't near the stair railing, then you very likely have less transmission.
Same with masks, if the material is captured in a mask then it isn't sitting somewhere else waiting to be picked up.
If you are sick and don't sneeze on a stair railing because you aren't near the stair railing, then you very likely have less transmission.
Same with masks, if the material is captured in a mask then it isn't sitting somewhere else waiting to be picked up.
I mean distancing in the sense of standing six feet apart or only one person in the elevator.
Nobody is willing to take the gamble of giving up their life in order to chase the dragon of the impossible goal of eliminating illness. The cure is an extremely worse, torturous form of the thing you're trying to stop
> and try to get back to where they were before covid
I’m only one person, but… I don’t want to get back to where I was before covid. I really like not getting sick. I really like limiting my social engagements to those I will especially enjoy—particularly those which are one-on-one, a preference I’ve been pleased to rediscover after a few years as a miserable barfly and a brief stint in much more severe social isolation (unhealthy relationship in a place with no other friends and godawful weather).
I’m sure the old normal is a much more appealing prospect to others, and I don’t begrudge them that, but I like my quieter life and my years without infectious disease. And if that means wearing a mask whenever I go into public buildings, that’s fine! I’m not doing it very often, it’s just a mild personal annoyance that harms no one.
I’m only one person, but… I don’t want to get back to where I was before covid. I really like not getting sick. I really like limiting my social engagements to those I will especially enjoy—particularly those which are one-on-one, a preference I’ve been pleased to rediscover after a few years as a miserable barfly and a brief stint in much more severe social isolation (unhealthy relationship in a place with no other friends and godawful weather).
I’m sure the old normal is a much more appealing prospect to others, and I don’t begrudge them that, but I like my quieter life and my years without infectious disease. And if that means wearing a mask whenever I go into public buildings, that’s fine! I’m not doing it very often, it’s just a mild personal annoyance that harms no one.
> No amount of covid is safe, and no number of shots can protect you: “We want to say plainly that you can have a mild infection and still get Long COVID,” the organization wrote, in a Weather Report in June. “Vaccinated people can also get Long COVID.”
And every reinfection makes it worse, it s cumulative damage. There are now multiple studies corroborating these
Where is the evidence that we should treat covid as a normal 'endemic' virus that we can ignore?
I 'm all for masks , at least for a period of time in schools etc, to reduce the waves of infection. This is something we should be doing about all seasonal diseases btw. It is not normal for millions of parents to get infected with multiple viruses every year
And every reinfection makes it worse, it s cumulative damage. There are now multiple studies corroborating these
Where is the evidence that we should treat covid as a normal 'endemic' virus that we can ignore?
I 'm all for masks , at least for a period of time in schools etc, to reduce the waves of infection. This is something we should be doing about all seasonal diseases btw. It is not normal for millions of parents to get infected with multiple viruses every year
Is that different from other diseases? It sounds similar to flus, colds, etc. A flu shot can improve the odds but they're never perfect. No amount of flu is safe, and the more times you get the flu the more likely you are to die.
No it has very different outcomes
The risk of complications increases in every new infection
https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/...
Elevated memory problems, stroke, seizure
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-022-02001-z
immunological dysfunction
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41590-021-01113-x
https://health.ucdavis.edu/news/headlines/international-stud...
The risk of complications increases in every new infection
https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/...
Elevated memory problems, stroke, seizure
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-022-02001-z
immunological dysfunction
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41590-021-01113-x
https://health.ucdavis.edu/news/headlines/international-stud...
Isn't that the case with the flu? It's fairly rare to get serious damage from the flu the first handful of times you get it. Most people don't die from the flu until they've caught it 5+ times (in large part because getting the disease multiple times is correlated with aging)
>No amount of covid is safe, and no number of shots can protect you
The irrational, terrified logic of this could also be applied to so many other things that inevitably carry some risk. Take it to the point where you futilely try yo stamp all types of activities and habits out of existence based on a silly notion that nothing can be 100% guaranteed to work and "even one death is too much". Again, absurd and suffocating logic.
The irrational, terrified logic of this could also be applied to so many other things that inevitably carry some risk. Take it to the point where you futilely try yo stamp all types of activities and habits out of existence based on a silly notion that nothing can be 100% guaranteed to work and "even one death is too much". Again, absurd and suffocating logic.
It is very much normal for millions of people to get infected with all kinds of mild to moderate illnesses each year. What bubble of cleanliness and isolation to you think most people should live in? During a pandemic, I can see the need for certain carefully considered (major emphasis on carefully) protective measures being applied. Outside of said pandemic, I can't, for practical and moral reasons of basic freedoms, government authority and absurd paranoias about something that's clearly not going away, not controllable through masks or quarantines and for which many remedies now exist.
This article is absurd hyperbole trying to reclaim a bit of flagging COVID hysteria for the sake of clicks and attention, and it uses arguments that are less valid than ever to do so..
This article is absurd hyperbole trying to reclaim a bit of flagging COVID hysteria for the sake of clicks and attention, and it uses arguments that are less valid than ever to do so..
I don't think the article is hyperbole. You can search covid studies by yourself to see that there is ample evidence about the long term burden of covid, and that it's cumulative every time people get reinfected.
We don't need to force people to wear masks, but we can warn them about the dangers of the virus, which is unlike the other seasonal viruses. It seems the pendulum has away from covid fearmongering completely towards other side , pretending that it's OK for millions to be infected with a virus that is not benign. The results and burden on healthcare systems will become more obvious the coming years.
We don't need to force people to wear masks, but we can warn them about the dangers of the virus, which is unlike the other seasonal viruses. It seems the pendulum has away from covid fearmongering completely towards other side , pretending that it's OK for millions to be infected with a virus that is not benign. The results and burden on healthcare systems will become more obvious the coming years.
Is "controllable" the only decision point?
Measures that aren't 100% effective (and thus fail the "controllable" standard) can still have lots of impact.
We could do a lot at the margins to reduce respiratory infections if people just made better decisions (and had a little more support to make better decisions).
Measures that aren't 100% effective (and thus fail the "controllable" standard) can still have lots of impact.
We could do a lot at the margins to reduce respiratory infections if people just made better decisions (and had a little more support to make better decisions).
Nope. Not gonna give up another second of my life or ounce of my freedom. Thankfully virtually everyone has woken up and agrees with this sanity
> Thankfully virtually everyone has woken
That is not my impression on HN. Anytime I comment that Sweden did better than most countries by not following WHO lockdown orders I get downvotes. When you look at excessive deaths, you see there is small bump in 2020 and nothing else. Lockdowns didn't help at all, people died anyway.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/525353/sweden-number-of-...
That is not my impression on HN. Anytime I comment that Sweden did better than most countries by not following WHO lockdown orders I get downvotes. When you look at excessive deaths, you see there is small bump in 2020 and nothing else. Lockdowns didn't help at all, people died anyway.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/525353/sweden-number-of-...
Most people still commenting on it in forums disagree, but that's because the chilling effect is still in full force. Voices in favor of freedom and reality were censored for years
If you don't see my upvotes, it only means I am shadow-banned on HN. When I upvote or downvote, person's counter doesn't change.
It seems reasonable to suggest that masks reduce disease and save lives. This may be a scientifically provable fact.
If you want to save lives, you're welcome to wear a mask. Nothing stopping you.
Should the government be able to force people to wear a mask?
Iran's currently hanging people for not wearing government mandated head coverings. I personally don't regard that as positive or something I want to be implemented in any country where I live.
During the early days of COVID I personally wore a mask but also wrote against government mandates, here and elsewhere. Mask mandates were never acceptable, and are now less so than ever: Hospitals aren't overwhelmed anymore, vaccines are available and the population has decent immunity.
If you want to save lives, you're welcome to wear a mask. Nothing stopping you.
Should the government be able to force people to wear a mask?
Iran's currently hanging people for not wearing government mandated head coverings. I personally don't regard that as positive or something I want to be implemented in any country where I live.
During the early days of COVID I personally wore a mask but also wrote against government mandates, here and elsewhere. Mask mandates were never acceptable, and are now less so than ever: Hospitals aren't overwhelmed anymore, vaccines are available and the population has decent immunity.
> It seems reasonable to suggest that masks reduce disease and save lives. This may be a scientifically provable fact.
When masks are worn correctly by trained people as intended (form fitted N95s used for one short task in one room and then safely discarded), there seems to be a reasonable argument that masks are somewhat effective for reducing the spread of disease.
But in the real world; the masks are the wrong types and aren't form-fitted, people are constantly adjusting them and moving them around and touching them, many people are basically walking around half the time with their nose hanging out, people wear them not only for many hours at a time but often for days/weeks at a time without being washed and breathing in their own moist bacteria colonies, etc. I'm not sure if real-world mask usage results in a significant net-positive: they could actually have a net-negative effect when you consider the amount of bacteria people are inhaling from their own mask.
When masks are worn correctly by trained people as intended (form fitted N95s used for one short task in one room and then safely discarded), there seems to be a reasonable argument that masks are somewhat effective for reducing the spread of disease.
But in the real world; the masks are the wrong types and aren't form-fitted, people are constantly adjusting them and moving them around and touching them, many people are basically walking around half the time with their nose hanging out, people wear them not only for many hours at a time but often for days/weeks at a time without being washed and breathing in their own moist bacteria colonies, etc. I'm not sure if real-world mask usage results in a significant net-positive: they could actually have a net-negative effect when you consider the amount of bacteria people are inhaling from their own mask.
>Should the government be able to force people to wear a mask?
All the time? No. During a pandemic? Absolutely, yes. One of the legitimate purposes of government is to manage emergency situations that affect the public at large, by marshaling resources, coordinating response systems and, yes, sometimes forcing people to give up individual liberties for the greater good. Being forced to wear a mask during a pandemic, all things considered, is a small ask and it baffles me how many people consider even that small thing to be an unacceptable, unforgivable violation of their very being.
>Iran's currently hanging people for not wearing government mandated head coverings. I personally don't regard that as positive or something I want to be implemented in any country where I live.
That isn't really the same thing. Governments weren't mandating the use of masks for religious reasons, but to stop the spread of COVID.
All the time? No. During a pandemic? Absolutely, yes. One of the legitimate purposes of government is to manage emergency situations that affect the public at large, by marshaling resources, coordinating response systems and, yes, sometimes forcing people to give up individual liberties for the greater good. Being forced to wear a mask during a pandemic, all things considered, is a small ask and it baffles me how many people consider even that small thing to be an unacceptable, unforgivable violation of their very being.
>Iran's currently hanging people for not wearing government mandated head coverings. I personally don't regard that as positive or something I want to be implemented in any country where I live.
That isn't really the same thing. Governments weren't mandating the use of masks for religious reasons, but to stop the spread of COVID.
> Should the government be able to force people to wear a mask?
The government runs some institutions like schools, which are even mandatory. If people can be forced to go to school wearing a mask is a rather mild requirement
The government runs some institutions like schools, which are even mandatory. If people can be forced to go to school wearing a mask is a rather mild requirement
> A ragtag coalition of public-health activists believe that America’s pandemic restrictions are too lax—and they say they have the science to prove it.
The tagline of this article.
I wonder, first of all, do those who advocate for more/continued restrictions recognize that there are tradeoffs to be considered?
And if there are tradeoffs, isn't that a political question?
Where does this weird assumption that political propositions can be "proved" objectively by "science" come from?
The tagline of this article.
I wonder, first of all, do those who advocate for more/continued restrictions recognize that there are tradeoffs to be considered?
And if there are tradeoffs, isn't that a political question?
Where does this weird assumption that political propositions can be "proved" objectively by "science" come from?
> Where does this weird assumption that political propositions can be "proved" objectively by "science" come from?
Regular science can not do it. They have "THE science", though.
Regular science can not do it. They have "THE science", though.
Good news for anybody who is concerned. Nothing prevents you from wearing a mask every single moment of your waking life until you die. Nothing.
Just keep anybody who doesn't want to participate out of your delusions.
Just keep anybody who doesn't want to participate out of your delusions.
In Japan people wear masks when they have a cold, out of kindness towards others. Being kind to others is certainly something we should strive for.
I always thought it was interesting how the opt-in masks had also become integrated with street fashion over there too. Or, you can really make the right one work with an outfit’s palette.
Mask wearing in Japan may not have quite the motivations people assume. This is from decades ago, but an explanation bandied about at one time was that mask wearing was more a matter of hiding your face when sick rather than concern about pathogen spreading.
I agree with you and this was my reasoning anytime anyone’s suggested I’m being overly cautious. I’ve given up vocalizing the reasoning for the most part, it’s felt like strapping on another head and begging people not to look at me as if I’ve three heads. But I’m glad I’m not totally alone in wanting to protect others around me from trivially avoided infectious diseases.
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Depending on where you live, it can be against the law. In Virginia, it's a Class 6 felony. There are exceptions and for medical reasons:
"(iv) wearing a mask, hood or other device for bona fide medical reasons upon (a) the advice of a licensed physician or osteopath and carrying on his person an affidavit from the physician or osteopath specifying the medical necessity for wearing the device and the date on which the wearing of the device will no longer be necessary and providing a brief description of the device, or (b) the declaration of a disaster or state of emergency by the Governor in response to a public health emergency where the emergency declaration expressly waives this section, defines the mask appropriate for the emergency, and provides for the duration of the waiver."
I haven’t lived in VA for over 20 years, but I did spend a couple months there this year to help with family matters (health related but not directly covid-related AFAIK). Anyway, yeah, VA is fucked up in a lot of ways… but not so fucked up that their glut of bored cops with nothing to do other than harass people care about this mask law.
Absent other behavior that causes concern, wearing a mask is more likely to raise an eyebrow than any kind of confrontation. I was also pleasantly surprised to find this was the case twice driving across the US. Only one person even asked me why I was wearing a mask, and it was very unclear whether the one person asking sincerely didn’t know why from sheer unfamiliarity.
Absent other behavior that causes concern, wearing a mask is more likely to raise an eyebrow than any kind of confrontation. I was also pleasantly surprised to find this was the case twice driving across the US. Only one person even asked me why I was wearing a mask, and it was very unclear whether the one person asking sincerely didn’t know why from sheer unfamiliarity.
France passed some anti-mask laws about a decade ago as a reaction to Muslim immigration. [0] (Amusingly, the statute also prescribes a €30,000 fine to anyone forcing someone to wear a mask). Other countries also have a history of anti-mask laws. [1]
Pre-covid, it was quite unusual in Western nations to see anyone wearing a mask. Most would probably assume anyone wearing one was carrying some highly communicable disease and would give them a wide berth.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-mask_law
Pre-covid, it was quite unusual in Western nations to see anyone wearing a mask. Most would probably assume anyone wearing one was carrying some highly communicable disease and would give them a wide berth.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-mask_law
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One thing that surprises me, politically, is how things have shifted. During the AIDS crisis, it was the Right that made a big deal of sanitation theater--wearing bright yellow kitchen gloves, for example. This time, it's the Left.
I'd be more likely to wear a mask if I thought it would actually have any effect.
I'd be more likely to wear a mask if I thought it would actually have any effect.
Archived: https://archive.vn/qIalq
tamaharbor(2)
Immunity Debt FTW!
Still, much of this article sounds like people who are lonely and seeking some sort of community. The ability to move on as people and as a culture is important as our country has new headwinds to face, with a closer-to-home war in europe, a complicated and scary economy, and a looming disconnection with China that's going to shake up our everyday lives. I hope maybe these people can move on too, find personal protection equipment that meets their needs, and try to get back to where they were before covid.
The CDC in my opinion was right to pull back the guardrails and let people gain natural immunity via exposure so we can try to get back where we were before 2020. We won't get fully there, but shouldn't we keep trying?