Marie Kondo Gives Up(gizmodo.com)
gizmodo.com
Marie Kondo Gives Up
https://gizmodo.com/marie-kondo-minimalist-house-cleaning-sparks-joy-1850041011
71 comments
I read your comment before reading the article, and expected to find some sneering torrent of vitriol seething with hatred for Marie Kondo and everything she stands for.
Instead it was a bubbly little wisp of a human interest piece with a joke at the end about the rest of us now being free to stew in our own slop. It seems to be poking the mildest of fun at Kondo's admission that having kids doesn't leave her a lot of time to tidy up to the same standards she used to.
And I assume we both read the same linked article. I guess this just shows how one's own experiences and resulting preconceptions affect perception of the same material; and that applies to both of us.
Instead it was a bubbly little wisp of a human interest piece with a joke at the end about the rest of us now being free to stew in our own slop. It seems to be poking the mildest of fun at Kondo's admission that having kids doesn't leave her a lot of time to tidy up to the same standards she used to.
And I assume we both read the same linked article. I guess this just shows how one's own experiences and resulting preconceptions affect perception of the same material; and that applies to both of us.
It's unflattering and serves no purpose other than to discredit her as an ideology.
Even the title prefix "Relatable:" betrays this. Our role models aren't supposed to be relatable, they're supposed to be better than us.
Showing us that they aren't is just the adult equivalent of telling kids Santa isn't real. It doesn't spark Joy, it crushes Hope. Trolling masquerading as journalism.
(FFS, people are still trying to find dirt on Fred Rogers. Leave the man alone and let the rest of us believe that not everyone and everything on this rock needs to be awful 24/7.)
Even the title prefix "Relatable:" betrays this. Our role models aren't supposed to be relatable, they're supposed to be better than us.
Showing us that they aren't is just the adult equivalent of telling kids Santa isn't real. It doesn't spark Joy, it crushes Hope. Trolling masquerading as journalism.
(FFS, people are still trying to find dirt on Fred Rogers. Leave the man alone and let the rest of us believe that not everyone and everything on this rock needs to be awful 24/7.)
There's nothing negative about describing a celebrity as relatable. Relatability is something most celebrities these days strive for in order to portray themselves as more authentic to their audience. For celebrities that heavily rely on social media, relatability attracts followers and sales.
https://www.diggitmagazine.com/articles/supposed-authenticit...
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/apr/05/its-genuine-yo...
https://www.diggitmagazine.com/articles/supposed-authenticit...
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/apr/05/its-genuine-yo...
Fair point, but she started as a guru selling an Idea. She's a celebrity after that.
I think I'm just angry that she sold out. Relatability in terms of acknowledging you don't/can't eat your own dogfood makes the whole thing feel like a betrayal.
(...not unlike watching Rachael Ray go from being a celebrity chef to a name on a line of literal dog food.)
I think I'm just angry that she sold out. Relatability in terms of acknowledging you don't/can't eat your own dogfood makes the whole thing feel like a betrayal.
(...not unlike watching Rachael Ray go from being a celebrity chef to a name on a line of literal dog food.)
And its still a good idea, but she's still human, having kids is overwhelming for everyone (except the rich) She's not selling out, she's showing imperfection, a trait of all human beings.
The expectation of human transcendence and perfection is I'm sorry to say, a bit childish.
The expectation of human transcendence and perfection is I'm sorry to say, a bit childish.
>Our role models aren't supposed to be relatable, they're supposed to be better than us.
What in the bizarro world?? Go read some research regarding role models and see just how wrong you are. The whole point in effectiveness of role models IS relatability. https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=role...
What in the bizarro world?? Go read some research regarding role models and see just how wrong you are. The whole point in effectiveness of role models IS relatability. https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=role...
You want to believe in the adult equivalent of Santa being real??
You can benefit from someone’s wisdom and insight despite them being just as human as you.
You can benefit from someone’s wisdom and insight despite them being just as human as you.
Yes agreed that perceptions can be significantly different.
Another perspective is these types of articles are designed by media manipulators to be polarizing so they generate more clicks. There's plenty published in the last 24 hours on her in this vein that will show you what I'm talking about.
I mean she did just release a new book and this tactic isn't unheard of for best sellers to climb.
The most powerful predictor of what spreads online is anger. Monetizing on humiliation is common too.
Another perspective is these types of articles are designed by media manipulators to be polarizing so they generate more clicks. There's plenty published in the last 24 hours on her in this vein that will show you what I'm talking about.
I mean she did just release a new book and this tactic isn't unheard of for best sellers to climb.
The most powerful predictor of what spreads online is anger. Monetizing on humiliation is common too.
The content of the article is good. The title is clickbait. (But what isn't nowadays?)
Did you read the original Washington Post article that TFA is referencing?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/home/2023/01/26/marie-kondo-k...
Marie Kondo released a new book last November (Kurashi at Home) which describes her change in direction. This publicity for her book is in no way unflattering to her, and I expect that she would enjoy the sales gained from the extra attention.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/home/2023/01/26/marie-kondo-k...
Marie Kondo released a new book last November (Kurashi at Home) which describes her change in direction. This publicity for her book is in no way unflattering to her, and I expect that she would enjoy the sales gained from the extra attention.
Yes thanks for pointing it out, I just wrote a comment above regarding how this is likely just the media manipulating public opinion and a typical tactic used for best sellers.
The article is very supportive of her! There is no slander in it at all. What the hell is wrong with people
Well, you should actually read this one then. It's is full support of her and thinks it is a good idea.
Reading comments from people who did not read the article does not spark joy for me.
Reading comments from people who did not read the article does not spark joy for me.
I read the picture caption text "I'm so excited because I love mess." That doesn't indicate any kind of giving up, merely a change in priorities/values.
I didn't sense any envy or negativity in the post at all.
> "To which Gizmodo says: good for her!"
I didn't sense any envy or negativity in the post at all.
> "To which Gizmodo says: good for her!"
This description is in a different universe from the actual article. This is an enormously negative criticism of something that this isn't an instance of, and since your criticism is about the negativity of the author, it seems pretty hypocritical.
I sure hope people can understand that no human with a specific gimmick/expertise/expert "thing" is always 100% aligned with that specific thing. No developer is 100% developing. No professional gamer is 100% gaming professionally, etc. Like the universe around us we are moving constantly changing (evolving?) creatures. We are not our profession constantly. There's too much hyperfocus these days. I hope she made good money out of all that stuff and can focus on what she wants to focus on without being judged for it.
What sparks joy for me is calling out people that didn't read the article before commenting.
It has literally nothing defamatory, on the contrary.
It has literally nothing defamatory, on the contrary.
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> To which Gizmodo says: good for her!
How is this envy?
> Envy is such a terrible human trait.
There’s a reason it’s one of the 7 Deadly Sins.
There’s a reason it’s one of the 7 Deadly Sins.
Yes, in a series of made up tales about faeries in the garden
I'm sorry, I don't understand the reference?
> Kondo gave birth to her third child in 2021
I don't have children, but all parents I've talked to have indicated that you can compare having a child to having a hurricane in your house, in terms of stability, organization, chaos, etc. A third child in 2021? Yeah, I'm not surprised.
> “Now I realize what is important to me is enjoying spending time with my children at home.” To her, focusing on family over folding is time spent “the right way for me at this time, at this stage of my life.”
Would anyone fault any parent for wanting to spend more time with their children, especially really young ones, after they're born? This piece comes off as really brash to me. She isn't giving up -- she's living life.
I don't have children, but all parents I've talked to have indicated that you can compare having a child to having a hurricane in your house, in terms of stability, organization, chaos, etc. A third child in 2021? Yeah, I'm not surprised.
> “Now I realize what is important to me is enjoying spending time with my children at home.” To her, focusing on family over folding is time spent “the right way for me at this time, at this stage of my life.”
Would anyone fault any parent for wanting to spend more time with their children, especially really young ones, after they're born? This piece comes off as really brash to me. She isn't giving up -- she's living life.
I have three kids and enjoyed the article, and forwarded to the few other parents I know (except one, who still keeps her house crazy clean because she has lots of professional help) with three kids.
The spirit was “Even Marie Kondo can’t keep a clean house with three kids!”
The spirit was “Even Marie Kondo can’t keep a clean house with three kids!”
I have three kids and a maid that comes every week and the house is still a disaster except for 6-7 hours after the maid comes.
It's going to get worse, a lot worse for a long time, before it gets better.
> It's going to get worse, a lot worse for a long time, before it gets better.
We've lived on our block for nearly 35 years; with all the young families who have moved in, there are now some 20 (!) kids age 12 and under on the block — all but a couple of them boys. Our thirty-something son and his "brothers" (now-adult men who grew up together and are still close), remembering their teen-aged years on the block, have chuckled about that, saying, "Wait till they all get to high school and get driver's licenses ...."
We've lived on our block for nearly 35 years; with all the young families who have moved in, there are now some 20 (!) kids age 12 and under on the block — all but a couple of them boys. Our thirty-something son and his "brothers" (now-adult men who grew up together and are still close), remembering their teen-aged years on the block, have chuckled about that, saying, "Wait till they all get to high school and get driver's licenses ...."
For so long? What’s your secret? Does the maid come at night when they’re asleep?
The response to the change on her part is framed by the cultural craze around her earlier advice, and the demographic within which it was influential.
Its not really about her, per se.
Its not really about her, per se.
Yep, that's a good description. And unless you're paying someone to come clean and straighten up (cleaning, organizing, and ongoing maintenance are all different concerns!), there is a large amount of time that you need to trade off in order to do that yourself. Your kids will only be kids for so long, so fuck the constant organizing routine and spend your time with them. Be reactive and just clean up when you need to, and shove things into a closet when people come over or whatever. My kid is almost 11 now, and the worst realization is that I'm way past the half way mark in the time that I have with them at home as my kid. I'll have plenty of time to put my shit away when I'm missing them while they're away at college and then building their own life.
My spouse is a professional organizer. It's a cool field, with a mix of helping people maintain a high end appearance, and also helping others who are literally trying to dig their lives out from the living room. Our home doesn't look like a completed job, though. There will (hopefully) be time for that later.
My spouse is a professional organizer. It's a cool field, with a mix of helping people maintain a high end appearance, and also helping others who are literally trying to dig their lives out from the living room. Our home doesn't look like a completed job, though. There will (hopefully) be time for that later.
I have two children and there was the syrup from a mandarin orange snack cup flying through the air about an hour ago.
Mercifully, it’s nap time.
Hurricane is such a good term.
Mercifully, it’s nap time.
Hurricane is such a good term.
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I’m sure whatever Marie Kondo’s definition of giving up is, it’s much different from your own. For example in her latest book, she describes leaving housework such as the dishes for the next day (probably morning) because she is too tired.
This does not mean you can continue being a messy unorganized American who waits a week to do the dishes.
This does not mean you can continue being a messy unorganized American who waits a week to do the dishes.
>This does not mean you can continue being a messy unorganized American who waits a week to do the dishes.
True. It is much easier to just throw away the dirty dishes (they did not spark joy). But that starts to get expensive and it was much easier to just eat out of the can, or these days - thankfully - the grocery store makes complete ready to cook healthy whole food single meals oven ready. Only need to own utensils and a coffee cup now
Seriously (I mean that did happen, but) I am guessing whatever her 'giving up' is, is better than all of my best efforts combined.
True. It is much easier to just throw away the dirty dishes (they did not spark joy). But that starts to get expensive and it was much easier to just eat out of the can, or these days - thankfully - the grocery store makes complete ready to cook healthy whole food single meals oven ready. Only need to own utensils and a coffee cup now
Seriously (I mean that did happen, but) I am guessing whatever her 'giving up' is, is better than all of my best efforts combined.
She just had her third kid too. Sounds like her need for tidiness in the face of having three kids was taking up a lot of time/energy and she realised spending time with her family was more important.
I’ve heard people in other countries are starting to emulate the American concept of being reluctant to do the dishes
Do Americans not have dishwashers? They are almost standard in my country and completely eliminate this problem. Not having one feels like not having a washing machine for your clothes.
I'll admit if I have a dinner party that goes till late, I'll often leave the dishes on the table but then move them to the dishwasher first thing in the morning.
I'll admit if I have a dinner party that goes till late, I'll often leave the dishes on the table but then move them to the dishwasher first thing in the morning.
Personally, I intentionally do not have a dishwasher. I strictly limit the number of dishes I own and use. When I need a dish I clean it. But I don't really have dinner parties ever.
Americans mostly have dishwashers. I think the problem is that dishwashers vary a lot in how much crud they can handle. Growing up we had a detachable unit that hooked up to the sink. That limited its ability to discharge any solid particles, which meant that in practice we would pre-wash most dishes and use the dishwasher to ensure the dishes were spotless and sterilized. Too much gunk and you'd have to frequently clean out the filter, a disgusting task.
Plumbed-in dishwashers are not supposed to have this problem, and I have not found them to. You just have to scrape off any solids into the garbage before putting the dish in. The dishwasher performs better with dirty dishes and you save a lot of water. But I've definitely noticed that some people are very hesitant to just put stuff in the washer, which can result in a pileup at the sink.
Usually what happens is that a pot with nasty stuck-on bits gets put in the sink and filled with water, and then someone trying to rinse off a dish gets put off by the dirty pot and just puts the dish in the sink, and then before you know it you have a sink full of dirty dishes and gross water. My traditional policy to avoid this is to prohibit leaving any dishes in the sink at all, which was my family's rule. Unfortunately, my current roommate comes from a family with the exact opposite rule -- leaving dishes on the counter is forbidden, they must go in the sink.
Plumbed-in dishwashers are not supposed to have this problem, and I have not found them to. You just have to scrape off any solids into the garbage before putting the dish in. The dishwasher performs better with dirty dishes and you save a lot of water. But I've definitely noticed that some people are very hesitant to just put stuff in the washer, which can result in a pileup at the sink.
Usually what happens is that a pot with nasty stuck-on bits gets put in the sink and filled with water, and then someone trying to rinse off a dish gets put off by the dirty pot and just puts the dish in the sink, and then before you know it you have a sink full of dirty dishes and gross water. My traditional policy to avoid this is to prohibit leaving any dishes in the sink at all, which was my family's rule. Unfortunately, my current roommate comes from a family with the exact opposite rule -- leaving dishes on the counter is forbidden, they must go in the sink.
> This does not mean you can continue being a messy unorganized American who waits a week to do the dishes.
Being an American means that random people don't get to tell you what you're allowed to do.
Being an American means that random people don't get to tell you what you're allowed to do.
Unless those random people are banks, and you own them money for your education or your health.
I've yet to have a bank try to micromanage how I clean my house, or any other aspect of my life, for that matter.
Oh. like a credit score dictating how much you will have to work to pay for the interest part of that house loan you need?
Or just if you get that lease or not?
That would be random people telling you what you're allowed to do. And it's unamerican.
That would be random people telling you what you're allowed to do. And it's unamerican.
Marie Kondo's lifestyle has no effect on what I can and cannot do in my own life, nor would she ever claim it does.
I am pretty sure people who leave dishes out for a week will be unaffected by her leaving them out for a day. They will be able to leave them put as before.
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Chauvinism is not called-for and embarrasses you in public.
Sure I can.
The last two paragraphs seem to have missed the point. She’s not doing this because she “deserves a break” or wants to “stew in her own slop”. It is a conscious decision to trade time spent tidying for time spent with kids. I imagine the latter is probably more exhausting!
Nobody will regret having spent less time tidying and more time with their kids.
Being a parent is stressful, but you’ll never get that time back. And as cheesy as it sounds: observe them, listen to them and play with them and you’ll see the world from a whole new perspective.
Being a parent is stressful, but you’ll never get that time back. And as cheesy as it sounds: observe them, listen to them and play with them and you’ll see the world from a whole new perspective.
Tidying makes time with kids more comfortable.
People seem to have expectation that it needs to be 100% nice and clean arrangement. Just like clean code, it's fine as long as you can find stuff, add more stuff to it and all are still easily to find and add.
That's a really good analogy.
She's just saying that with three kids, she's given up on keeping her home clean at all times. That makes sense, anything else would be insane. She's not saying "give up, live in a pig sty."
I found KC Davis's 2022 book How to Keep House While Drowning to be a nice complementary update to Kondo's techniques.
On a practical level Davis focuses on accumulated mess as 5 things: (1) trash, (2) dishes, (3) laundry, (4) things that have a place and are not in their place, and (5) things that do not have a place.
The book adds some interesting psychological framing which I found helpful -- treating care tasks as morally neutral, for example. Her techniques target ADHD-types as well as people undergoing life changes (like Marie Kondo starting a family) or otherwise have strict time/energy constraints. Her Struggle Care website [0] has a pretty detailed primer on her philosophy.
[0]: https://www.strugglecare.com/struggle-care
On a practical level Davis focuses on accumulated mess as 5 things: (1) trash, (2) dishes, (3) laundry, (4) things that have a place and are not in their place, and (5) things that do not have a place.
The book adds some interesting psychological framing which I found helpful -- treating care tasks as morally neutral, for example. Her techniques target ADHD-types as well as people undergoing life changes (like Marie Kondo starting a family) or otherwise have strict time/energy constraints. Her Struggle Care website [0] has a pretty detailed primer on her philosophy.
[0]: https://www.strugglecare.com/struggle-care
My personal experience is that her book's process and tips are really helpful for living in small spaces and when you want to refresh your home. That's true even if you don't follow it to a T - you just need to use what works for you.
What I got from the philosophy is being more deliberate about what I own and how I maintain things, and an awareness of the subtle effects of clutter.
This isn't a great piece of journalism, but I hope that she shares more about adapting her principles to different situations and stages of life.
What I got from the philosophy is being more deliberate about what I own and how I maintain things, and an awareness of the subtle effects of clutter.
This isn't a great piece of journalism, but I hope that she shares more about adapting her principles to different situations and stages of life.
It was a brief fad movement, perhaps. She had a good idea, wrote a successful book, made plenty of money and then reality sort of set in when she had kids. Life moves on, things change.
She wrote a new book. OP is an ad.
Related WaPo article (gift link): https://wapo.st/40d5TNv
I built https://www.thingybase.com/ so that I could barcode everything with QR code labels that I print from my thermal printer. When I need to find something I search for it on my phone and it tells me where I put it.
I know people who are very neat and when they apologize and say their place is messy when I visit, I might have to strain my eyes to see what they are seeing. So.. I really doubt Marie Kondo's place is 'messy'.
I can sympathize with Marie Kondo - when the kids came it was just chaos - the mess in the lounge was referred to as their "playroom".
Priorities change after you have kids (especially 3). News at 11. The only thing surprising about this is that anyone is surprised.
I feel as though her self-evaluation of "messy" is probably more organized and cleaner than 99% of people
I guess that goes to show no ideology scales well either over time or space/resource
Kids can have a dramatic impact on your expectations regarding tidiness.
Envy is such a terrible human trait.