Ask HN: I'm a good programmer, I know nothing about marketing. Where do I start?
22 comments
Rob Walling has written and spoken a lot about marketing for developers. Rob published a book in 2010 titled "start small stay small" https://startsmall.com/ . A lot of the specific tricks and tools may be a decade out of date now, but some of the ideas wont -- one of them is not to build a thing that people aren't looking for, but find a niche that people are already looking for (e.g. tapping into search traffic for related keywords and so on) and run experiments to see how much traffic you can get to a landing page / sign up page for a product to serve that niche, to evaluate if there's enough demand for a product, before you invest in building anything.
More recently, see also https://microconf.com
Another aspect to this is -- don't focus on the product/service/technical project, put that aside. What are some interesting niche communities of potential customers? why are these niches of customers interesting, from a business perspective? How hard is it to sell to them? Will there be a lot of competition? Are there enough of them with a similar need or jobs to be done that you have a chance of supporting a business? what methods do you have to communicate with them? if you build a product or service for them, how will they find out about it? If you think a bit about Rob's products and services linked above, it's broadly clear which market niches of potential customers he is selling too.
More recently, see also https://microconf.com
Another aspect to this is -- don't focus on the product/service/technical project, put that aside. What are some interesting niche communities of potential customers? why are these niches of customers interesting, from a business perspective? How hard is it to sell to them? Will there be a lot of competition? Are there enough of them with a similar need or jobs to be done that you have a chance of supporting a business? what methods do you have to communicate with them? if you build a product or service for them, how will they find out about it? If you think a bit about Rob's products and services linked above, it's broadly clear which market niches of potential customers he is selling too.
These are great points.
Not sure I have any good marketing references, but I would ask / say
- Why would I want to use this over my current calendar?
- What makes your product different?
- Who responds to this? Can you find a niche who wants this?
Do not spend money on advertising until you can reach some users and learn from them.
I would recommend going through the https://startupschool.org videos. For most products, "marketing" comes later, at least the kind you would find in a course on marketing. This is not the kind of marketing you want to do. You want to post about it on social media, other places your users would be, quality content helps people discover the things around it.
Also consider time management apps are a dime a dozen, a hyper-crowded space. What are you trying to get out of this project?
- Why would I want to use this over my current calendar?
- What makes your product different?
- Who responds to this? Can you find a niche who wants this?
Do not spend money on advertising until you can reach some users and learn from them.
I would recommend going through the https://startupschool.org videos. For most products, "marketing" comes later, at least the kind you would find in a course on marketing. This is not the kind of marketing you want to do. You want to post about it on social media, other places your users would be, quality content helps people discover the things around it.
Also consider time management apps are a dime a dozen, a hyper-crowded space. What are you trying to get out of this project?
I'll repeat my usual advice: Read whatever patio11 wrote about that https://www.kalzumeus.com/greatest-hits/#marketing
I still don't understand your question. Otherwise I'd have selected two as my personal recommendation.
I still don't understand your question. Otherwise I'd have selected two as my personal recommendation.
I understand the desire to tinker because you know how to do that, versus actually selling the thing, because you're not confident doing that.
There's lots of ways to market things, and you'll get done good advice here, but ultimately marketing works better when you have something of value.
The process of marketing often either encourages you, or shows you the thing you are making has no value, and it's time to work on something else.
Just like "being old" doesn't make something valuable, so "I've worked really hard, and for a long time" also means nothing. It's really important to market early in a project, sometimes even before the project starts, to determine if it has legs. Once you've done a lot of work, it becomes harder to let go, and easier to believe it needs "just one more feature."
So here's my advice about marketing. Tell me who your customer is. What do they do? What tools do they use? How does using this tool make their life better? How much money do they have? Can they afford this? Why will they choose this over the current incumbent?
Most good apps start with a very specific pain point. People will pay to take pain away. If there's no pain, they don't much care. Be front and centre so folks with that pain understand that your goal is to remove that pain.
25 years ago the biggest pain in my life was around an error code I would encounter. I made a tool that made the error go away. Forever. My marketing consisted of 1 line "makes xxx error go away". That was enough to validate the product and get me going. I've done enormous amounts of traditional marketing since then, but the fundamentals are still true - show people their pain, then make it go away.
Make your home page a description of the pain you are setting out to solve. Not a random video of the UI.
There's lots of ways to market things, and you'll get done good advice here, but ultimately marketing works better when you have something of value.
The process of marketing often either encourages you, or shows you the thing you are making has no value, and it's time to work on something else.
Just like "being old" doesn't make something valuable, so "I've worked really hard, and for a long time" also means nothing. It's really important to market early in a project, sometimes even before the project starts, to determine if it has legs. Once you've done a lot of work, it becomes harder to let go, and easier to believe it needs "just one more feature."
So here's my advice about marketing. Tell me who your customer is. What do they do? What tools do they use? How does using this tool make their life better? How much money do they have? Can they afford this? Why will they choose this over the current incumbent?
Most good apps start with a very specific pain point. People will pay to take pain away. If there's no pain, they don't much care. Be front and centre so folks with that pain understand that your goal is to remove that pain.
25 years ago the biggest pain in my life was around an error code I would encounter. I made a tool that made the error go away. Forever. My marketing consisted of 1 line "makes xxx error go away". That was enough to validate the product and get me going. I've done enormous amounts of traditional marketing since then, but the fundamentals are still true - show people their pain, then make it go away.
Make your home page a description of the pain you are setting out to solve. Not a random video of the UI.
Case studies: https://www.first1000.co
Semrush Academy: https://www.semrush.com/academy/courses/
Semrush Academy: https://www.semrush.com/academy/courses/
Rather than watching a bunch of marketing courses that’ll probably be covering content that is painfully obvious (trust me on this one lol), you’d be better served picking up a book like “The Personal MBA” to understand the important concepts in marketing (among all the other core business elements).
I could write a lot about marketing, but for the most part it all comes down to one thing: really understanding your target customer (what they want, what they do today, what type of people they tend to be, etc.) and creating the messaging and material that speaks to them. Don’t fall in the trap of talking a bunch about all of your cool features. Instead, focus on how with your tool, your customers can become the hero they always wanted to be (or at least show them that their life will be better).
If you can do that, you’re doing marketing and doing it a lot better than most.
I could write a lot about marketing, but for the most part it all comes down to one thing: really understanding your target customer (what they want, what they do today, what type of people they tend to be, etc.) and creating the messaging and material that speaks to them. Don’t fall in the trap of talking a bunch about all of your cool features. Instead, focus on how with your tool, your customers can become the hero they always wanted to be (or at least show them that their life will be better).
If you can do that, you’re doing marketing and doing it a lot better than most.
Who is your customer? Why should they use your product over alternatives to solve their problem / improve their life?
This is the realm of product management and product marketing as much as general "marketing".
Read The Mom Test. Follow what it says to do practical user research, so that you can effectively target your niche within time management / productivity tools.
https://www.momtestbook.com/
After that, here's a good video from a YC person about launches, and why you should think of them as things to do over and over as opposed to just once:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xU050kMbHM
This is the realm of product management and product marketing as much as general "marketing".
Read The Mom Test. Follow what it says to do practical user research, so that you can effectively target your niche within time management / productivity tools.
https://www.momtestbook.com/
After that, here's a good video from a YC person about launches, and why you should think of them as things to do over and over as opposed to just once:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xU050kMbHM
I built an internal resource for the folks in my org who are interested in learning more about marketing. [0]
My biggest advice is join marketing communities on the platforms you hang out on (Facebook, YouTube, Reddit, etc) so you can learn passively.
[0] https://contentdistribution.slite.com/app/docs/BFMS0Lg1Yz/Ou...
My biggest advice is join marketing communities on the platforms you hang out on (Facebook, YouTube, Reddit, etc) so you can learn passively.
[0] https://contentdistribution.slite.com/app/docs/BFMS0Lg1Yz/Ou...
These books are probably dated by now but they're a good place to start:
"Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion" by Robert B. Cialdini
"Persuasion Engineering" by Richard Bandler
"Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion" by Robert B. Cialdini
"Persuasion Engineering" by Richard Bandler
Beware of shifting focus from programming to marketing. You may lose your passion and instead just try fitting stuff on the market. Get someone else to do it IMO.
When you say “Marketing” do you really mean just the subsets “Marketing Communications,” and “Sales,” or do you also mean the things needed to find product-market fit?
Visualize your customer. Where are they? How can I reach them? What types of content will trigger "Take my money!"?
Less specific advice: spend N hours marketing today. And tomorrow, and however long it's the priority.
You're smart, you'll figure out how to market it. Marketing is just showing it to people who want it. Find them and show it to them. The problem isn't coursera or a knowledge gap, it's that you're procrastinating.
You're smart, you'll figure out how to market it. Marketing is just showing it to people who want it. Find them and show it to them. The problem isn't coursera or a knowledge gap, it's that you're procrastinating.
I'd be happy to introduce you to an engineer I know who is building a very interesting product that is starting to gain some traction. He lacks computer science knowledge/skills to build the backend he needs and would happily share 50% of his startup with someone like you.
hit me up at me[at]agusti.me
If you get familiar with Pareto you might have an advantage by knowing which items in a set best deserve your attention. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle
In order:
- The 22 Immutable Laws of Marketing
- +1 for Traction suggested by someone else
- Purple Cow
If you're going to sell to consumers, it has to be "shut up and take my money.jpg" good. You're not there yet in my humble opinion.
- The 22 Immutable Laws of Marketing
- +1 for Traction suggested by someone else
- Purple Cow
If you're going to sell to consumers, it has to be "shut up and take my money.jpg" good. You're not there yet in my humble opinion.
“Traction” book is possibly the best book on the subject that is more or less recent and relevant to a wide range of businesses. It’s also very practical
maybe it is better to focus on coding and team up with somebody knows marketing
My +1 to resources mentioned already, are 4 analytical frameworks:
F1 is Crossing the Chasm 3rd edition: https://www.amazon.com/Crossing-Chasm-3rd-Disruptive-Mainstr...
Moore's analytical framework is technology adoption life cycle.
The story of tech marketing is strong, ... so strong that tech marketers usually see themselves perpetually stuck at crossing the chasm (like approaching an asymptote or limit).
Even when the actual marketing problems another problem in the same book.
Pro Tip: Cross check compelling conclusions with DATA.
Using Moore-tinted-glasses to express what others have said: * What word of mouth communities exist in your current users? * Talking to users, what do they say your product's killer functions are? * What burning business process, are your early adopters finding you to solve?
F2 = Utterback's MASTERING THE DYNAMICS OF INNOVATION uses the "dominant design" analytical framework.
Utterback-tinted-glasses: * What product functions/components could you add, that would trigger an infrastructure swap out (Moore concept) to your solution? Search "Dodge all metal" for a great plot of this * Retrospectively, what functions have new entries to your product category, added? These are usually different for each new entrant. For bonus points, look at the functions entrants thought would work, and then check if the company is still around. Utterback tracks components of dominant designs, over product category maturity. =Handy way to think!
F3 = Kawasaki's MACINTOSH WAY, ART OF THE START 2nd edition, and SELLING THE DREAM
Kawasaki's analytical framework has two elements:
First, product superiority. Gather product superiority component by component into a product that is Deep, Indulgent, Complete, and Elegant. Products are packages of components, and even when the individual components are not category leading (original Mac's speed, RAM, ...) the resulting package can be superior by assembling a piquant component set. Original Mac's 1 leading component was the graphical user interface at a consumer price point.
Second, cause. What is your cause in developing the product? For that cause, what kind of product would stake out the moral and functional "high ground."
Cause is a combination of left brain with right brain. Engineers often have secret causes that they pursue throughout a career. Ex., DBA colleague who wants to build categorical databases. Yes, you got that right, Haskell does not go far enough! But more to the point, what motivates why you do what you do? That fuzzy thing, is the root of a cause. SELLING THE DREAM has examples: Macintosh enabled making beautiful documents at the desk. Stanley Marcus' autobiography said ~ "The business was built by going to Paris fashion shows, and substituting conservative fabrics into those designs." Cause guess = fabric substitution.
Kawasaki-tinted-glasses: * Are your current users using the product because of the code you've written? Or because they like your cause? * What natural allies does your product's cause have? Have you broken bread with these allies and seen if they know about you, like you, would somehow have good ideas for you? * Is there any possible way you can build your cause without taking VC money? If so don't take VC money!
F1 is Crossing the Chasm 3rd edition: https://www.amazon.com/Crossing-Chasm-3rd-Disruptive-Mainstr...
Moore's analytical framework is technology adoption life cycle.
The story of tech marketing is strong, ... so strong that tech marketers usually see themselves perpetually stuck at crossing the chasm (like approaching an asymptote or limit).
Even when the actual marketing problems another problem in the same book.
Pro Tip: Cross check compelling conclusions with DATA.
Using Moore-tinted-glasses to express what others have said: * What word of mouth communities exist in your current users? * Talking to users, what do they say your product's killer functions are? * What burning business process, are your early adopters finding you to solve?
F2 = Utterback's MASTERING THE DYNAMICS OF INNOVATION uses the "dominant design" analytical framework.
Utterback-tinted-glasses: * What product functions/components could you add, that would trigger an infrastructure swap out (Moore concept) to your solution? Search "Dodge all metal" for a great plot of this * Retrospectively, what functions have new entries to your product category, added? These are usually different for each new entrant. For bonus points, look at the functions entrants thought would work, and then check if the company is still around. Utterback tracks components of dominant designs, over product category maturity. =Handy way to think!
F3 = Kawasaki's MACINTOSH WAY, ART OF THE START 2nd edition, and SELLING THE DREAM
Kawasaki's analytical framework has two elements:
First, product superiority. Gather product superiority component by component into a product that is Deep, Indulgent, Complete, and Elegant. Products are packages of components, and even when the individual components are not category leading (original Mac's speed, RAM, ...) the resulting package can be superior by assembling a piquant component set. Original Mac's 1 leading component was the graphical user interface at a consumer price point.
Second, cause. What is your cause in developing the product? For that cause, what kind of product would stake out the moral and functional "high ground."
Cause is a combination of left brain with right brain. Engineers often have secret causes that they pursue throughout a career. Ex., DBA colleague who wants to build categorical databases. Yes, you got that right, Haskell does not go far enough! But more to the point, what motivates why you do what you do? That fuzzy thing, is the root of a cause. SELLING THE DREAM has examples: Macintosh enabled making beautiful documents at the desk. Stanley Marcus' autobiography said ~ "The business was built by going to Paris fashion shows, and substituting conservative fabrics into those designs." Cause guess = fabric substitution.
Kawasaki-tinted-glasses: * Are your current users using the product because of the code you've written? Or because they like your cause? * What natural allies does your product's cause have? Have you broken bread with these allies and seen if they know about you, like you, would somehow have good ideas for you? * Is there any possible way you can build your cause without taking VC money? If so don't take VC money!
I keep procrastinating by tweaking technical things, but let's face it - there's no value to increasing the performance/maintainability of something that no one is using.
I know I need to market it, and I've made some posts here and there about it, but I feel like I have no idea what I'm doing.
Is there some sort of Marketing 101 youtube series or Coursera course that just covers some base level knowledge?