Data-Free Disney(publicbooks.org)
publicbooks.org
Data-Free Disney
https://www.publicbooks.org/data-free-disney/
50 comments
> Starting before my kids were born, I made sure no private companies collected traceable data about them—at least, nothing that could be aggregated across services or platforms to identify them or to target me as a mom. I bought everything—from pregnancy tests to diapers to clothes—in cash. At home, I built up an entire alternative tech ecosystem: privacy-oriented browsers and blockers, firewalled machines and accounts, and multiple concurrent email addresses. I’ve never even swiped a credit card or a discount card for children’s goods at the till. It’s been nine years and counting, and I have yet to see a single ad for diapers, daycare, or summer camp.
I love my privacy and my kids' but I don't understand this extreme behavior... She is worried that companies know she has kids? Can't they just pull public records to see that? Or read this article published under her full name with attached social media profiles?
Personally I don't want to be tracked by Disney in the real world, but wouldn't mind it inside the park. Or, like another commenter pointed, just don't go. Disney will track you with or without a band (isn't every square inch of the place under CCTV?)
I love my privacy and my kids' but I don't understand this extreme behavior... She is worried that companies know she has kids? Can't they just pull public records to see that? Or read this article published under her full name with attached social media profiles?
Personally I don't want to be tracked by Disney in the real world, but wouldn't mind it inside the park. Or, like another commenter pointed, just don't go. Disney will track you with or without a band (isn't every square inch of the place under CCTV?)
I believe this "extreme behavior" is very valuable to you and I.
It sets the goalpost. Without defining privacy and standing up for it, the goalpost will be moved and pretty soon no privacy will be normalized.
It helps define things for employees of these companies. If people inside the company never have to deal with someone who values their privacy, it will never be tested. This also helps employees that actually value privacy and see what goes on inside.
It sets an example for others who value their privacy and don't know what they can do to protect it.
It prompts discussion. And hopefully laws.
As a related example, Richard Stallman might be controversial in his behavior (he doesn't use proprietary software, or use a phone), but years after he created the GPL it is pretty obvious he was onto something and has helped us.
It sets the goalpost. Without defining privacy and standing up for it, the goalpost will be moved and pretty soon no privacy will be normalized.
It helps define things for employees of these companies. If people inside the company never have to deal with someone who values their privacy, it will never be tested. This also helps employees that actually value privacy and see what goes on inside.
It sets an example for others who value their privacy and don't know what they can do to protect it.
It prompts discussion. And hopefully laws.
As a related example, Richard Stallman might be controversial in his behavior (he doesn't use proprietary software, or use a phone), but years after he created the GPL it is pretty obvious he was onto something and has helped us.
It’s a thought exercise brought into the real world. Useful to have journalists try these things out and let us know how plausible various strategies are.
“Don’t go” is a valid one but thought-terminating.
“Don’t go” is a valid one but thought-terminating.
The "don’t go" is also very telling because it might not always be possible.
What if those principles are extended to, say, public transports? Public services? Shops? Stadium?
What if those principles are extended to, say, public transports? Public services? Shops? Stadium?
Indeed, privacy being stamped out everywhere.
The author seems a bit too paranoid, if you ask me. I stopped reading the article when they mentioned that “Disneyland.com didn’t work on Tor”
You've got to understand that you kids have been raised in different times.
In the 1980's, the German state tried twice to do a census of the population. Twice the protests by the people were so vivid, that they failed to do them. In 1983, the highest German court declared the planned census unconstitutional and in 1987, protests on May 1st turned into violence over this issue.
In 2022, Germany did a census again. There was basically no public objection.
In the 1980's, the German state tried twice to do a census of the population. Twice the protests by the people were so vivid, that they failed to do them. In 1983, the highest German court declared the planned census unconstitutional and in 1987, protests on May 1st turned into violence over this issue.
In 2022, Germany did a census again. There was basically no public objection.
Another data point, here in Australia we do a census every 5 years. Never really heard any objection other than it is annoying.
Germany has a very unique history when it comes to how records of their population were used...
Not totally unique. The US government used its census for Japanese internment camps.
And it was American innovation that made the use of that census data possible for both countries thanks to Herman Hollerith's punch cards & tabulators and Thomas Watson's greed leading IBM to furnish the Nazis with that technology.
I'm with both of you.
I was an early ProtonMail and ProtonVPN supporter and for years would only chat to family members over Signal. I'm conscious of how my phone can track me and of the benefits of using cash.
But I still can't see how avoiding Disney tracking is for her kids' "safety". The Mouse doesn't loom so large in my mind. And I can't judge family members for making the judgment call that they don't really care what Facebook and Google collect about their online activity.
I was an early ProtonMail and ProtonVPN supporter and for years would only chat to family members over Signal. I'm conscious of how my phone can track me and of the benefits of using cash.
But I still can't see how avoiding Disney tracking is for her kids' "safety". The Mouse doesn't loom so large in my mind. And I can't judge family members for making the judgment call that they don't really care what Facebook and Google collect about their online activity.
The point is not to be paranoid about what will happen if data leak, the point is to stick to "I don’t want my data shared without my consent" and see what happens.
We badly need more experiment like those because this tell a lot about our society!
It’s exactly like vegan diets. You have moral principles and you try to see how far/how difficult it is to apply them. This also helps other realize what is happening/what they are missing.
I admire her because I would be like her before having kids. As they say: "I had principles. Now I have kids.".
We badly need more experiment like those because this tell a lot about our society!
It’s exactly like vegan diets. You have moral principles and you try to see how far/how difficult it is to apply them. This also helps other realize what is happening/what they are missing.
I admire her because I would be like her before having kids. As they say: "I had principles. Now I have kids.".
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I'm wondering if she wore facemasks in grocery stores before the pandemic? Or else they're probably tracking her purchasing behavior anyway by video. Maybe not 9 years ago but surely by now.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34612732 was the companion discussion. To quote the author. "(Note: This is the companion post to my article at Public Books about evading data detection at Disneyland. For the fun story, read the Public Books version; for tech details and the "why" of my choices, read on here)."
What the author doesn’t realize is that both data collection and tracking are responsible for one of the best Disney amusement park innovations in years: minimizing the wait in lines. I would rather walk around and enjoy things with an app telling me when to wait in line as opposed to being trapped in a giant and never ending queue all day.
Disney parks have always been a mass surveillance zone for decades in the name of safety and security, regardless of whether or not you opt into their modern tech. If you don’t like it, don’t go to their parks.
Disney parks have always been a mass surveillance zone for decades in the name of safety and security, regardless of whether or not you opt into their modern tech. If you don’t like it, don’t go to their parks.
Scheduling amusement park rides through an app seems like a new circle of hell.
OTOH its convenient. Say you live in socal with a pass and want to ride the new ride with a virtual queue. You can just sit on your couch at home and see if you get in the queue and if its even worth it to go to the park that day. If they didn't have that system, it would be a crapshoot and probably like a 2 hour wait. This way you can estimate when you need to be there and can basically walk on. Then if you want food, once again, turn to the app, schedule a pickup window when you are going to be over there, hit a button on the app, walk up and grab it, versus waiting in line.
Some people, like me, really like to plan. It's nice to know I can walk up to a ride and get on it in a few minutes rather than rush a park and hope to get in early enough that I don't lose my whole morning to waiting in line for ten minute attraction. To me, that kinda sounds like a new circle of hell, but to each their own.
Similar result, but different route for me:
Planning, I hate: "I'm using this time and energy to figure out how I'm going to use my time and energy."
Waiting in line, I hate even more: "I want to do something and am delayed due to these other people that want to do the same thing."
Using an app to avoid lines sounds like a good solution.
"It's like Uber, but for waiting in line"
Great article. Some curiosities:
> The names on the tickets don’t have to match any government-issued ID, Allison explained.
This probably doesn't extend to hotel bookings, so if you're travelling to Disney (which many families are) and staying on property you're kinda screwed, no? Even if you're not staying on property you still need to give you details to some company.
> Still, there’s simply no way to avoid pulling your mask down for portrait photos at the gate. That’s simply “for your safety,” Allison intoned.
Portrait photos at the gate? Does Disney require children to get a photo attached to their ticket so they can be found if lost?
As a side note: I created https://mousetrack.co.uk to track prices of the tickets and hotels at Disneyworld. Hopefully me gathering this data can be considered a way to fight back against their data gathering.
> The names on the tickets don’t have to match any government-issued ID, Allison explained.
This probably doesn't extend to hotel bookings, so if you're travelling to Disney (which many families are) and staying on property you're kinda screwed, no? Even if you're not staying on property you still need to give you details to some company.
> Still, there’s simply no way to avoid pulling your mask down for portrait photos at the gate. That’s simply “for your safety,” Allison intoned.
Portrait photos at the gate? Does Disney require children to get a photo attached to their ticket so they can be found if lost?
As a side note: I created https://mousetrack.co.uk to track prices of the tickets and hotels at Disneyworld. Hopefully me gathering this data can be considered a way to fight back against their data gathering.
In the US, you generally only need to provide the ID/name of one person responsible for booking. A lot of hotels don't really even push verifying the id too hard as long as they have a credit card on file. As an American it is always jarring to me when I travel and I get my passport photocopied/details taken at a hotel. Disney might have a different policy, but hotels generally don't register children or more than one guest in my experience. Until the last few years you didn't even need ID to fly in the US
The portrait photos at the gate for finding lost kids are a great idea. But only if Disney is very clear that the portrait is only retained for the time the ticket is valid, and then deleted.
The problem is that most companies in the US basically retain the right to do whatever they want with your data even if they only plan to use it in a very limited fashion.
If only there were a law that required them to enumerate specifically how your data gets used...
The portrait photos at the gate for finding lost kids are a great idea. But only if Disney is very clear that the portrait is only retained for the time the ticket is valid, and then deleted.
The problem is that most companies in the US basically retain the right to do whatever they want with your data even if they only plan to use it in a very limited fashion.
If only there were a law that required them to enumerate specifically how your data gets used...
>As an American it is always jarring to me when I travel and I get my passport photocopied/details taken at a hotel.
To clarify, it is not like hotels outside the US have fun gathering the info, in many countries it is required by Law to transmit info about guests (including children) to the Police.
To clarify, it is not like hotels outside the US have fun gathering the info, in many countries it is required by Law to transmit info about guests (including children) to the Police.
The photos are used for re-entry to the park. They prevent you from handing off your ticket to someone outside the park, since your photo will pop up for the employee to verify the next time it's scanned at the gate.
They collect data because they see a business benefit. The only things which can change that will be regulation or people changing their spending habits. Spending money at their parks isn't going to change anything.
Surely the solution is to just not go to Disney
Where’s the fun in that?
> The kids met their Pixar heroes and had a lightsaber duel with Chewbacca. Meanwhile, I was riding high on my own personal “spy-versus-spy” adventure the whole day.
It's critical to always have a secret mission on these occasions. Great, fun read!
It's critical to always have a secret mission on these occasions. Great, fun read!
Living this way sounds exhausting. Using fake names, putting on facial recognition-defeating face paint, using burner phones to go to a theme park...
Once these kids move out on their own they're going to have a hard time adjusting to the rest of society's social norms in the same way that homeschooled, extremely religious, or children raised in other socially or technologically isolated ways have to adjust as the real world suddenly hits them outside of the influence of their parents.
A mild example of this is the disparity between 90s kids who grew up with and without cable. The ones who grew up without it have an entire set of pop culture references that are completely unheard of to them. It's not really a big deal or anything, but it's a good analogy.
Disney just wants to sell you shit and manage the flow of traffic in the busiest theme parks in the world.
They're not trying to generate your social credit score to forward to the draconian authoritarian governments of the world.
Plus, you can do everything right and your bank or credit agency might still leak your personal info in a breach like Equifax and Capital One.
Once these kids move out on their own they're going to have a hard time adjusting to the rest of society's social norms in the same way that homeschooled, extremely religious, or children raised in other socially or technologically isolated ways have to adjust as the real world suddenly hits them outside of the influence of their parents.
A mild example of this is the disparity between 90s kids who grew up with and without cable. The ones who grew up without it have an entire set of pop culture references that are completely unheard of to them. It's not really a big deal or anything, but it's a good analogy.
Disney just wants to sell you shit and manage the flow of traffic in the busiest theme parks in the world.
They're not trying to generate your social credit score to forward to the draconian authoritarian governments of the world.
Plus, you can do everything right and your bank or credit agency might still leak your personal info in a breach like Equifax and Capital One.
> Disney just wants to sell you shit and manage the flow of traffic in the busiest theme parks in the world.
> They're not trying to generate your social credit score to forward to the draconian authoritarian governments of the world.
Well, they will, their databases will end up on the dark net, also will be used by the governments in your social credit score.
> They're not trying to generate your social credit score to forward to the draconian authoritarian governments of the world.
Well, they will, their databases will end up on the dark net, also will be used by the governments in your social credit score.
I spent the majority of the last 30 years in Florida, and the theme parks were a regular past time. Disney World, but also Busch Gardens Tampa, SeaWorld, and Universal. All of them have gone down this path, though Disney is probably the most insidious. At the other parks, even with a paper ticket, your fingerprint is scanned to prevent people from sharing tickets. Disney used to do this too, but they stopped a few years ago. I didn't pay much mind to it, but the article reminded me: they can just use facial recognition.
Visiting Disney parks without using the app is a distinctly inferior experience. This is no accident. It isn't possible anymore to book a dining reservation sans app, likewise to check queue times (unless you walk to the ride entrance), likewise fastpasses. The app is more convenient, but only because they actively make the parks less convenient. The quality of the rides, the scenery, the staff/cast, and the mis en scene have all been slowly degrading over the past 10+ years or so. Despite that, prices nearly doubled I think.
Visiting Disney parks without using the app is a distinctly inferior experience. This is no accident. It isn't possible anymore to book a dining reservation sans app, likewise to check queue times (unless you walk to the ride entrance), likewise fastpasses. The app is more convenient, but only because they actively make the parks less convenient. The quality of the rides, the scenery, the staff/cast, and the mis en scene have all been slowly degrading over the past 10+ years or so. Despite that, prices nearly doubled I think.
> It isn't possible anymore to book a dining reservation sans app
The website? [0]
> likewise to check queue times (unless you walk to the ride entrance)
There's giant digital signage around the park with wait times? [1]
> likewise fastpasses
Don't exist anymore, but correct (except for CS options in the park) for the new paid version. Previously you could get them at kiosks around the park.
> The quality of the rides, the scenery, the staff/cast, and the mis en scene have all been slowly degrading over the past 10+ years or so.
Fully agree.
[0]: https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/dining/#/reservations-acce...
[1]: https://www.micechat.com/247615-disneyland-update-the-resist...
The website? [0]
> likewise to check queue times (unless you walk to the ride entrance)
There's giant digital signage around the park with wait times? [1]
> likewise fastpasses
Don't exist anymore, but correct (except for CS options in the park) for the new paid version. Previously you could get them at kiosks around the park.
> The quality of the rides, the scenery, the staff/cast, and the mis en scene have all been slowly degrading over the past 10+ years or so.
Fully agree.
[0]: https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/dining/#/reservations-acce...
[1]: https://www.micechat.com/247615-disneyland-update-the-resist...
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Disney World still does fingerprint scans. I think they paused it for a while due to Covid, but it's definitely in place today.
Thats some dedication, i applaud the author for keeping her kids private
The modern Disney Parks have a myriad of problems and one of them is definitely the insistence that guests utilize apps, etc but not because of the absolute paranoia outlined here.
For my personal curiosity, roughly which decade were you born?
Am I getting old?
It was (obviously) previously possible to visit Disneyland without this sort of antics, so I don't think the problem lies with the author.
It's more like the author is demonstrating to what ends you need to go to maintain a modicum of privacy.
Am I getting old?
It was (obviously) previously possible to visit Disneyland without this sort of antics, so I don't think the problem lies with the author.
It's more like the author is demonstrating to what ends you need to go to maintain a modicum of privacy.
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Stopped reading after "extreme approach to data-privacy" especially that it's presented as some kind of virtue and not a borderline dysfunctional quirk.
Do you realize how far we have come if not wanting to install an app that track your movements/voices/actions on your phone and not wanting pictures of your children in shady databases is seen as "dysfunctional quirk" ?
15 years ago, when working in the automotive industry, I made the prototype of a GPS feature that would record your travels and use simple AI techniques to predict your next destination. Prototype was working really fine (all was done onboard, not connection to external servers). When I first demoed it, upper-management told me that "no one will ever agree to have a car that record your travels. That’s too creepy!" That was 2008.
This is exactly the point of such articles and experiments: demonstrating how creepy the world become and how people pointing it are seen as the weirdos.
15 years ago, when working in the automotive industry, I made the prototype of a GPS feature that would record your travels and use simple AI techniques to predict your next destination. Prototype was working really fine (all was done onboard, not connection to external servers). When I first demoed it, upper-management told me that "no one will ever agree to have a car that record your travels. That’s too creepy!" That was 2008.
This is exactly the point of such articles and experiments: demonstrating how creepy the world become and how people pointing it are seen as the weirdos.
Sure, my sentiment in regards to “extreme data privacy” is that the world has an evolved and there are more benefits to the new lack of privacy than downsides overall.
I loathe the “real name policy” introduced by Facebook for the internet but can’t close my eyes to the fact that I am also benefitting from all that tracking as an individual and in business.
As a [thought] experiment I am ok following even a medieval way of life for a week to see what the difference is, I just wouldn’t present it as a virtue.
The pro-privacy stance is great and helps everyone, the extreme pro-privacy stance is akin to using burner phones for everything despite not being involved in any activities that truly require that level of opsec. It’s quirky, borderline comical and provides little insight into how to deal with current state of normalcy
I loathe the “real name policy” introduced by Facebook for the internet but can’t close my eyes to the fact that I am also benefitting from all that tracking as an individual and in business.
As a [thought] experiment I am ok following even a medieval way of life for a week to see what the difference is, I just wouldn’t present it as a virtue.
The pro-privacy stance is great and helps everyone, the extreme pro-privacy stance is akin to using burner phones for everything despite not being involved in any activities that truly require that level of opsec. It’s quirky, borderline comical and provides little insight into how to deal with current state of normalcy
I feel you are not really understanding the point privacy advocates are trying to make.
Yes, you feel that you benefit from less privacy now in the current context.
Using a burner phone only when something should be really hidden is like having a red light on your face. The point to not share any data voluntarly is that you never know when you will truly want to hide something. You don’t decide what is good and what is bad. What is happening with anti-abortion asking women to share the period data should be enough of an example.
The big point about privacy is also that it is not a personal choice. As soon as someone write about her personal choice of "not disclosing any private data", she’s seen as a weirdo. Proving one major point: you don’t really have the choice anymore. You must share your data. You have no control about who access your data. And as Trump demonstrated, any country is one inch away of switching to a government where each of your data can be used against you.
Sounds paranoid?
Well, the bad news is that most people perceived as paranoid about that subject in the last 40 years were not even close to imagine what we currently have.
Yes, you feel that you benefit from less privacy now in the current context.
Using a burner phone only when something should be really hidden is like having a red light on your face. The point to not share any data voluntarly is that you never know when you will truly want to hide something. You don’t decide what is good and what is bad. What is happening with anti-abortion asking women to share the period data should be enough of an example.
The big point about privacy is also that it is not a personal choice. As soon as someone write about her personal choice of "not disclosing any private data", she’s seen as a weirdo. Proving one major point: you don’t really have the choice anymore. You must share your data. You have no control about who access your data. And as Trump demonstrated, any country is one inch away of switching to a government where each of your data can be used against you.
Sounds paranoid?
Well, the bad news is that most people perceived as paranoid about that subject in the last 40 years were not even close to imagine what we currently have.
> Proving one major point: you don’t really have the choice anymore. You must share your data. You have no control about who access your data.
That’s sort of my point. That battle is long lost. There are certainly people personally responsible for the loss of privacy, but the current state of affairs in that regard is such a complex, indecipherable mess, that the reasonable way forward is to work within it not against it. Invent solutions that somehow hijack the system rather than try to reject it outright in favor of some 1999 way of life. Making statements about “not sharing any data ever” is at best as reasonable as insisting on eating only the food you’ve grown yourself.
That’s sort of my point. That battle is long lost. There are certainly people personally responsible for the loss of privacy, but the current state of affairs in that regard is such a complex, indecipherable mess, that the reasonable way forward is to work within it not against it. Invent solutions that somehow hijack the system rather than try to reject it outright in favor of some 1999 way of life. Making statements about “not sharing any data ever” is at best as reasonable as insisting on eating only the food you’ve grown yourself.
If you give me access to your email - and just your email, not your bank or anything like that - I will give you $10. It has to be your real, primary email, not a random unused second account or a bot account.
I promise I'll only read your emails, keep a copy, and sell your data as I find it profitable. I won't reset your passwords or anything.
$10 is more than what most other brokers will pay you for the same access, so this is a very good deal. If you really don't think your privacy is worth preserving, take me up on my offer.
I promise I'll only read your emails, keep a copy, and sell your data as I find it profitable. I won't reset your passwords or anything.
$10 is more than what most other brokers will pay you for the same access, so this is a very good deal. If you really don't think your privacy is worth preserving, take me up on my offer.
Data-Free Disneyland - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34612732 - Feb 2023 (211 comments)