How Duolingo reignited user growth(lennysnewsletter.com)
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How Duolingo reignited user growth
https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-duolingo-reignited-user-growth
258 comments
I'm sure this helped with their growth, but I really, really hate what Duolingo has become. It used to be a great app for learning a language. I went back to it recently to remember my Spanish for a trip and it's the worst, over-gamified experience I've ever seen. You spend half of the time dismissing dialogs about blue gems or treasure chests.
I really, really hate what Duolingo has become.
Agree
> It used to be a great app for learning a language.
Disagree. I was a very early user and big participant in the forums and in providing error correction on the courses. I watched it start to degrade and was emotionally invested in that decline for a while. But I walked away completely and now, looking back, I think I was always wasting my time on the site. I don't think it was ever a 'great app' and I think it was always the wrong approach to language learning. It's a way of sucking in ppl who have a desire to learn a language and to fool themselves that they are actually working productively towards that goal by using duolingo when instead, they're essentially procrastinating.
Agree
> It used to be a great app for learning a language.
Disagree. I was a very early user and big participant in the forums and in providing error correction on the courses. I watched it start to degrade and was emotionally invested in that decline for a while. But I walked away completely and now, looking back, I think I was always wasting my time on the site. I don't think it was ever a 'great app' and I think it was always the wrong approach to language learning. It's a way of sucking in ppl who have a desire to learn a language and to fool themselves that they are actually working productively towards that goal by using duolingo when instead, they're essentially procrastinating.
Completely agree. Duolingos user interface and gamification might have become more annoying, but the real problem is that this approach to language learning is incredibly inefficient at best and probably does not work at all. It just feels productive.
In reality, going from duolingo to reading anything more complex than a childrens book and holding a conversation more complex than ordering a coffee is only marginally easier than just trying to learn that directly.
It allows you to postpone the difficult parts of learning a language indefinitely while making it feel like steady progress. And our brains absolutely love that.
In reality, going from duolingo to reading anything more complex than a childrens book and holding a conversation more complex than ordering a coffee is only marginally easier than just trying to learn that directly.
It allows you to postpone the difficult parts of learning a language indefinitely while making it feel like steady progress. And our brains absolutely love that.
I think the basic problem with Duolingo is that it sells a lie - that learning a language can be easy. It's not.
Duolingo can help you with the absolute start, dipping the toes. But it won't teach you a language on even a basic level. It can work as a tool to exercise basic vocabulary, but that's not a language.
I've had success with learning a language passively just by reading books (there are easier ones for learners) and watching TV shows (with subtitles) / listening to podcasts. It takes time and can be sometimes frustrating, but can be down on your own.
Learning to speak and write is a different matter, and basically you need a tutor for that and a lot of practice.
Duolingo can help you with the absolute start, dipping the toes. But it won't teach you a language on even a basic level. It can work as a tool to exercise basic vocabulary, but that's not a language.
I've had success with learning a language passively just by reading books (there are easier ones for learners) and watching TV shows (with subtitles) / listening to podcasts. It takes time and can be sometimes frustrating, but can be down on your own.
Learning to speak and write is a different matter, and basically you need a tutor for that and a lot of practice.
I somewhat disagree. This application is not meant to "teach" you a foreign language but "help" you with a grammar and commonly used sentence, so
it can be used only as a companion and not the only source to learn. Similar as in the story previously discussed on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30467597 / https://runwes.com/2020/02/11/howilearnedfrench.html
Frankly, there are 3 things that I find annoying / frustrating:
- Pronunciation: Sometimes the recorded audio is in so bad quality or spoken in robotic way, that is very hard to repeat it.
- Gamification: After reaching 1st place in the Diamond League, I found the constant nagging about my ranking annoying. However, some users I follow have found it fun and have been in the Diamond League for over 70 weeks. I have also noticed that some players like to compete with others, it sometimes leads to visible competition for the top 3 places (especially in the Obsidian League), which is really fun.
- Catchy answers: It is not a problem to spend a whole day with Duolingo, but after 15 minutes you need to take a short break. Otherwise you lose your focus and may find that the answer you have entered is not one that Duolingo would accept. This is because many answers look good enough, but in reality the other one is correct. Personally, I have had to click on the icon several times to open a forum to find an explanation of the error.
Disclaimer: I am paying Duolingo user with 340+ day streak trying to learn French. I have never had a French classes, but recently I had no problem to chat with other real person in French.
Frankly, there are 3 things that I find annoying / frustrating:
- Pronunciation: Sometimes the recorded audio is in so bad quality or spoken in robotic way, that is very hard to repeat it.
- Gamification: After reaching 1st place in the Diamond League, I found the constant nagging about my ranking annoying. However, some users I follow have found it fun and have been in the Diamond League for over 70 weeks. I have also noticed that some players like to compete with others, it sometimes leads to visible competition for the top 3 places (especially in the Obsidian League), which is really fun.
- Catchy answers: It is not a problem to spend a whole day with Duolingo, but after 15 minutes you need to take a short break. Otherwise you lose your focus and may find that the answer you have entered is not one that Duolingo would accept. This is because many answers look good enough, but in reality the other one is correct. Personally, I have had to click on the icon several times to open a forum to find an explanation of the error.
Disclaimer: I am paying Duolingo user with 340+ day streak trying to learn French. I have never had a French classes, but recently I had no problem to chat with other real person in French.
> Pronunciation: Sometimes the recorded audio is in so bad quality or spoken in robotic way, that is very hard to repeat it.
Even worse, sometimes it's just plain wrong. I tried Duolingo for a few months at the end of 2021 to augment my Japanese lessons. At some point, there was a content update introducing a few additional voices. But the new voices were so buggy that they would sometimes read certain characters in a completely wrong way, i.e. they were using kun'yomi readings where it should be on'yomi and the other way around. (I don't remember the concrete example, but imagine something like 先に being read as "sen'ni" instead of "sakini". That's a mistake that a native speaker would never ever make.)
Even worse, sometimes it's just plain wrong. I tried Duolingo for a few months at the end of 2021 to augment my Japanese lessons. At some point, there was a content update introducing a few additional voices. But the new voices were so buggy that they would sometimes read certain characters in a completely wrong way, i.e. they were using kun'yomi readings where it should be on'yomi and the other way around. (I don't remember the concrete example, but imagine something like 先に being read as "sen'ni" instead of "sakini". That's a mistake that a native speaker would never ever make.)
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"Duolingos user interface and gamification might have become more annoying, but the real problem is that this approach to language learning is incredibly inefficient at best and probably does not work at all. It just feels productive."
^This. Spot on. I was fooled by Duolingo and wasted way too much time on it before I caught on and deleted everything Duolingo from all my devices. Now I'm finally making actual progress in my language learning. I never used Duolingo alone, of course, but the effort I spent there impacted my learning negatively and made everything ineffective.
Stay away from Duolingo. It's fool's gold.
^This. Spot on. I was fooled by Duolingo and wasted way too much time on it before I caught on and deleted everything Duolingo from all my devices. Now I'm finally making actual progress in my language learning. I never used Duolingo alone, of course, but the effort I spent there impacted my learning negatively and made everything ineffective.
Stay away from Duolingo. It's fool's gold.
I'm genuinely curious, is there other ressources you would recommend to use?
I've been learning Japanese for 2-3 months on Duolingo, and I do feel I'm getting more and more comfortable with the characters.
I will start taking lessons with a teacher in April when i move there, but I wanted to arrive with some base.
If you find the right teacher, you shouldn't need a base, as such. If you really want a head start you could use books, but honestly language exchange / tutoring is the best way to go for starting any new language. Don't worry about trying to impress a teacher from scratch.
I'd at the least throw away apps and learning games, in favour of books (especially those with audio samples available).
If the Duolingo Japanese course is anything like the Duolingo Russian course I did, there's no explanation for anything and they just throw sentences at you to translate. I think they only give actual information to the French/Spanish courses as that's what most users are looking for.
I'd at the least throw away apps and learning games, in favour of books (especially those with audio samples available).
If the Duolingo Japanese course is anything like the Duolingo Russian course I did, there's no explanation for anything and they just throw sentences at you to translate. I think they only give actual information to the French/Spanish courses as that's what most users are looking for.
> I've been learning Japanese for 2-3 months on Duolingo, and I do feel I'm getting more and more comfortable with the characters.
Well you see the exact issue with Duolinguo as pointed by others is that you feel you progressed for some months while in reality you didn't. If by the "characters" you mean hiragana and katakana both set can be learn to basic proficiency in a week (actually over a weekend for motivated people). If you mean kanji, the first set of 80 can be done quietly in a month (3 weeks in my case, when I was in high school, no tutor, no class, wikipedia only).
Well you see the exact issue with Duolinguo as pointed by others is that you feel you progressed for some months while in reality you didn't. If by the "characters" you mean hiragana and katakana both set can be learn to basic proficiency in a week (actually over a weekend for motivated people). If you mean kanji, the first set of 80 can be done quietly in a month (3 weeks in my case, when I was in high school, no tutor, no class, wikipedia only).
I you want to get a head start on something, Kanji is probably a good idea - there are about 2000 of them in common use (more, if you read more advanced stuff or in names), and teachers probably won't have a lot of time going over them. Plus, you essentially just have to memorise them, something you can only do on your own.
There are several ways of learning Kanji, each with their benefits and drawbacks, such as WaniKani, Remembering the Kanji, Kodansha Kanji Learner's Course, etc. Ultimately, Kanji are painful and time-intensive to learn, so none of these will be perfect, but you can maybe spend some initial time trying to find out which works best for you and then just stick with it.
There are several ways of learning Kanji, each with their benefits and drawbacks, such as WaniKani, Remembering the Kanji, Kodansha Kanji Learner's Course, etc. Ultimately, Kanji are painful and time-intensive to learn, so none of these will be perfect, but you can maybe spend some initial time trying to find out which works best for you and then just stick with it.
If you want to learn the basics of Japanese in a reasonably effective manner, you could try Human Japanese, you can use the 'light' version (free) first (on e.g. Android), it'll give you the first 7 chapters I think, and if that works for you then buy the full version for just a few dollars. It definitely worked for me and had the right progression, and teaches the very basics quite well. It even understands and explains how the は particle is never a subject particle.. unlike so many other tools out there.
Stay away from Duo. There's no structure to its teaching of Japanese, and it's not set up to let you intuit the grammar or structure either.
Stay away from Duo. There's no structure to its teaching of Japanese, and it's not set up to let you intuit the grammar or structure either.
Japanese on Duolingo honestly sucks in my opinion, even just compared to other Duolingo programs.
Duolingo isn't optimized for Japanese and it shows some major pain points especially around kanji and Japanese grammar.
There are a lot of more specialized Japanese learning apps if you need an app, and also many good textbooks and video lessons that are probably better than most apps.
Duolingo isn't optimized for Japanese and it shows some major pain points especially around kanji and Japanese grammar.
There are a lot of more specialized Japanese learning apps if you need an app, and also many good textbooks and video lessons that are probably better than most apps.
For learning Kanji, I wholeheartedly recommend WaniKani (https://wanikani.com). Not saying that you should stop Duolingo if it works for you, but you'll likely get much more out of 30 minutes spent on WaniKani than 30 minutes spent on Duolingo.
https://cijapanese.com/ Comprehensible Japanese
I think I had actually good results with it. Both with my kids who did improved a lot after starting to use it - their grades from language in school were going down before it.
And for myself too. I did had improvements I never got with self learning before. For me the gamification is the big thing that actually helps to keep on doing. One large reason for why I would not be to improve in language without duolingo is that makes the boring parts actually fun and keeps you engage to keep going. It wont make you fluent on itself, but it makes learning language feel less like horrible chore.
And for myself too. I did had improvements I never got with self learning before. For me the gamification is the big thing that actually helps to keep on doing. One large reason for why I would not be to improve in language without duolingo is that makes the boring parts actually fun and keeps you engage to keep going. It wont make you fluent on itself, but it makes learning language feel less like horrible chore.
There are some inherently dull and hard part of begging a new language. Duolingos gamification make learning things like the Korean characters or the basics of pronunciation a bit easier. But unless you’re making an additional effort to do language learning activities on your own over and above the app it’s probably not going be so useful. For instance try to recall all the content you’ve covered in a unit on your own and see if you can write it down. Or try and used some of the phrases to have a conversation with another learner etc..
I was a heavy user of the website and quite happy with it as a complementary tool. It did what no other resource did : Have me have a go at it every day ad remobilize knowledge. Grammar lessons and concepts are otherwise easily found online. In tandem, it worked wonders.
In my opinion, the tool only makes sense if you have a keyboard. Just choosing the right words on an app does not work well to remobilize knowledge. I learned typing just to be able to do my daily exercises faster.
The overgamification is also a pain. The only that ever mattered was your streak.
In my opinion, the tool only makes sense if you have a keyboard. Just choosing the right words on an app does not work well to remobilize knowledge. I learned typing just to be able to do my daily exercises faster.
The overgamification is also a pain. The only that ever mattered was your streak.
Duolingo was always, at most, a game which could potentially reinforce language learning.
People who think they're learning a language from it are fooling themselves. They may learn some things, but the time would be much better invested in language exchange (after all, what better way to learn a language than to use it with somebody who speaks it natively) and books when that's not possible.
Saw the writing on the wall when they began adding "Leaderboards", and the Reddit / Duolingo forums (since shut down) would fill with complaints about people "cheating" to get "XP" for winning the leaderboards each week.
For me, the biggest clue an app isn't really that effective is when they add "streaks" for using the app. They're trying to lock you into something, under the guise of "being consistent". I'm pretty sure anybody with a high streak just turns the app on and runs the first lesson (Hello, hi, how are you) to keep it going.
People who think they're learning a language from it are fooling themselves. They may learn some things, but the time would be much better invested in language exchange (after all, what better way to learn a language than to use it with somebody who speaks it natively) and books when that's not possible.
Saw the writing on the wall when they began adding "Leaderboards", and the Reddit / Duolingo forums (since shut down) would fill with complaints about people "cheating" to get "XP" for winning the leaderboards each week.
For me, the biggest clue an app isn't really that effective is when they add "streaks" for using the app. They're trying to lock you into something, under the guise of "being consistent". I'm pretty sure anybody with a high streak just turns the app on and runs the first lesson (Hello, hi, how are you) to keep it going.
> the time would be much better invested in language exchange (after all, what better way to learn a language than to use it with somebody who speaks it natively) and books when that's not possible.
Both requires pre-existing knowledge of a language. If you are starting these from zero, you get nowhere. If you are starting these too soon, it is going to be deadly boring.
Both requires pre-existing knowledge of a language. If you are starting these from zero, you get nowhere. If you are starting these too soon, it is going to be deadly boring.
> It's a way of sucking in ppl who have a desire to learn a language and to fool themselves that they are actually working productively towards that goal by using duolingo when instead, they're essentially procrastinating.
Thanks for saying it that clearly, this is exactly what I think of it too. I try to explain that sometime to people (irl), but despite my own achievements regarding language learning that should back my advises the truth is too hard to handle for most.
Thanks for saying it that clearly, this is exactly what I think of it too. I try to explain that sometime to people (irl), but despite my own achievements regarding language learning that should back my advises the truth is too hard to handle for most.
Or maybe you’re wrong. I think everyone here is missing the point. If the choice is between 5 minutes a day of Duolingo and _no_ language learning at all, Duolingo absolutely wins. And, empirically, it does work for some of us, in some languages.
I think the difference is between 5 minutes a day, checking the box that you’re “learning” vs admitting that you’d be better off using an effective structured program (tutor, live language partner, etc.). I think the critique is Duolingo is treated as a substitute when it’s a complement.
It's a way of sucking in ppl who have a desire to learn a language and to fool themselves that they are actually working productively towards that goal by using duolingo when instead, they're essentially procrastinating
Now that you mention it, I've seen ads for apps to "beat procrastination" and "quit drinking" and all sorts of nonsense on my feeds that all have similar marketing that goes something like:
"Are you tired of trying to reach [goal] but failing? Our new science based app uses techniques proven to help you finally reach your goal"
Now that you mention it, I've seen ads for apps to "beat procrastination" and "quit drinking" and all sorts of nonsense on my feeds that all have similar marketing that goes something like:
"Are you tired of trying to reach [goal] but failing? Our new science based app uses techniques proven to help you finally reach your goal"
Yeah, I wonder if the growth is going to last. Another commenter mentioned feeling that questions have gotten easier and there are fewer prompts to write full sentences. Maybe Duolingo is finding the right balance of difficulty, or maybe they're focusing on growth hacking instead of making an effective learning product. If so, users might eventually realize this and decide they'd rather use a different app or learning method. I'm hardly qualified to judge, but on the other hand, as someone who's used Duolingo a bit in the past, the constant gamification features and notifications can feel a bit too manipulative.
I suspect there's a reason his graph ends 8 months ago.
The endless gamification, nagging, and destruction of useful features would have driven me from the site. But because I'm a technically inclined, instead they drove me to sideload an "outdated" version of the app. Amusingly it still uses the same API, so you get all the core features and then some (turns out premium or not is a client side check lol) without any of the increasingly intolerable junk of the new app.
But what I have also noted is that the activity of users seems to have fallen off a cliff, which I'd tend to assume is because the number of users has fallen off a cliff. I went from a high activity user to a near zero activity user (Memrize is a much better primary tool for learning languages now IMO) yet my place in the leagues remains nearly unchanged. So either everybody also really started "engaging" with the site much less, or they simply left.
If anything Duolingo seems to be a warning about the dangers of pursuing the maximization of metrics at any cost. Work on making a better product and utilize metrics to see how you're doing. Work on mindlessly maximizing those metrics instead and you risk not only destroying your product, but also destroying your ability to measure the damage you're causing.
The endless gamification, nagging, and destruction of useful features would have driven me from the site. But because I'm a technically inclined, instead they drove me to sideload an "outdated" version of the app. Amusingly it still uses the same API, so you get all the core features and then some (turns out premium or not is a client side check lol) without any of the increasingly intolerable junk of the new app.
But what I have also noted is that the activity of users seems to have fallen off a cliff, which I'd tend to assume is because the number of users has fallen off a cliff. I went from a high activity user to a near zero activity user (Memrize is a much better primary tool for learning languages now IMO) yet my place in the leagues remains nearly unchanged. So either everybody also really started "engaging" with the site much less, or they simply left.
If anything Duolingo seems to be a warning about the dangers of pursuing the maximization of metrics at any cost. Work on making a better product and utilize metrics to see how you're doing. Work on mindlessly maximizing those metrics instead and you risk not only destroying your product, but also destroying your ability to measure the damage you're causing.
> his graph ends 8 months ago.
Personally I have found no joy in duolingo now that they forced a completely linear path in the tracks. I abhor it so much that I am against using it. i had like a 1000 day streak and they took that away from me through a technical issue but that's not even something i really care about... the lack of options in what i choose to and want to learn next is 1000% a worse product ux choice.
Personally I have found no joy in duolingo now that they forced a completely linear path in the tracks. I abhor it so much that I am against using it. i had like a 1000 day streak and they took that away from me through a technical issue but that's not even something i really care about... the lack of options in what i choose to and want to learn next is 1000% a worse product ux choice.
> yet my place in the leagues remains nearly unchanged. So either everybody also really started "engaging" with the site much less, or they simply left.
In my experience, Duolingo puts you with other folks who had a similar score to you in the previous league. I at one point was learning Italian aggressively, getting multiple thousands of points a week. I then had a week of vacation where I only did one lesson a day (totaled ~100 points that week) and was demoted. The next week, everyone I was paired with had faaaar fewer points than 'usual'.
In my experience, Duolingo puts you with other folks who had a similar score to you in the previous league. I at one point was learning Italian aggressively, getting multiple thousands of points a week. I then had a week of vacation where I only did one lesson a day (totaled ~100 points that week) and was demoted. The next week, everyone I was paired with had faaaar fewer points than 'usual'.
I think it's more than this - it feels pretty unclear that the "league" feature is real in any sense.
There's no particular reason to believe that the other users and scores in the league you're in represent other real-world humans, and could simply be generated algorithmically to put you at a specific point in a score distribution based on A/B testing for what works the best to keep people engaged. And if they do pull real human scores into that list, they don't necessarily need to make that list consistent between users; so if you get second place, the real human whose score is shown in fourth place could be looking at their own wholly separate list in which they were second (with a userbase as large as Duolingo, I think of these two things as largely isomorphic). As far as I know, Duolingo doesn't document or discuss the mechanics of league formation, so even if they were manipulating outcomes like this it wouldn't be outright lying.
My experience doing Duolingo regularly was that my own score would vary significantly week-over-week based on my time and effort, and I would always land somewhere in the top four-ish spots in the "league" I was in regardless. If I were really being put together with a set of humans at the beginning of the league and the scores just played out organically, I would expect to occasionally win big or get demolished, but that never happened to me.
And my guess is that being competitive towards the top of the league but not consistently winning is the best for user engagement, so they'd have every reason to fake/engineer that outcome.
There's no particular reason to believe that the other users and scores in the league you're in represent other real-world humans, and could simply be generated algorithmically to put you at a specific point in a score distribution based on A/B testing for what works the best to keep people engaged. And if they do pull real human scores into that list, they don't necessarily need to make that list consistent between users; so if you get second place, the real human whose score is shown in fourth place could be looking at their own wholly separate list in which they were second (with a userbase as large as Duolingo, I think of these two things as largely isomorphic). As far as I know, Duolingo doesn't document or discuss the mechanics of league formation, so even if they were manipulating outcomes like this it wouldn't be outright lying.
My experience doing Duolingo regularly was that my own score would vary significantly week-over-week based on my time and effort, and I would always land somewhere in the top four-ish spots in the "league" I was in regardless. If I were really being put together with a set of humans at the beginning of the league and the scores just played out organically, I would expect to occasionally win big or get demolished, but that never happened to me.
And my guess is that being competitive towards the top of the league but not consistently winning is the best for user engagement, so they'd have every reason to fake/engineer that outcome.
Duolingo’s product and growth teams fell into a Moloch [1] trap.
“From a god’s-eye-view, we can optimize the system to “everyone agrees to stop doing this at once”, but no one within the system is able to effect the transition without great risk to themselves.”
Each individual team is incentivized to drive their metric forward.
Done together as a whole company, this leads to all metrics dropping.
[1] https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/
“From a god’s-eye-view, we can optimize the system to “everyone agrees to stop doing this at once”, but no one within the system is able to effect the transition without great risk to themselves.”
Each individual team is incentivized to drive their metric forward.
Done together as a whole company, this leads to all metrics dropping.
[1] https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/
It might not necessarily be a focus on growth hacking. It's a hard balance even for actual educators.
If you make the learning process too boring or difficult then casual learners won't even get started. The techniques won't get you far but they'll get you far enough to the point that you can start learning on your own once you're more disciplined. I wonder how Khan Academy solves this and if Duolingo can (or even wants to) learn from it.
If you make the learning process too boring or difficult then casual learners won't even get started. The techniques won't get you far but they'll get you far enough to the point that you can start learning on your own once you're more disciplined. I wonder how Khan Academy solves this and if Duolingo can (or even wants to) learn from it.
I understand this mindset but, with all due respect, I'd also appeal to the pragmatic reality.
The entire point of Duolingo is to learn a foreign language. Somebody without an absolute mountain of intrinsic motivation is never going to do this, period. Even when "forced" to. I somehow managed to take 3 years of Spanish in school - and maintained a 4.0 in it. I can count to ten, ask you your name, and say a bunch of bad words. Woot for a smart kid gaming education that wants to be gamed anyhow so they can report happy figures to the government. I pretend to learn, they pretend to teach, and the government pretends to care. We all win! Unless the goal is to actually have people able to communicate in Spanish.
I suspect that's a big part of the reason Duolingo can credibly claim that 'x' hours of Duolingo is equivalent to 2 college semesters. Those people in college are disproportionately doing it to fill out a language requirement for graduation, not because they want to. By contrast everybody on Duolingo is there exclusively because they want to be.
Rants aside, the point is that it makes much more sense to focus on the users who actively want to learn than trying to lure in those that don't and somehow hoping to convert them. And I think this is the exact path Khan Academy takes, which is why people still rave about Khan Academy while Duolingo, especially in its current state, is something relatively few are going to have especially glowing things to say about.
The entire point of Duolingo is to learn a foreign language. Somebody without an absolute mountain of intrinsic motivation is never going to do this, period. Even when "forced" to. I somehow managed to take 3 years of Spanish in school - and maintained a 4.0 in it. I can count to ten, ask you your name, and say a bunch of bad words. Woot for a smart kid gaming education that wants to be gamed anyhow so they can report happy figures to the government. I pretend to learn, they pretend to teach, and the government pretends to care. We all win! Unless the goal is to actually have people able to communicate in Spanish.
I suspect that's a big part of the reason Duolingo can credibly claim that 'x' hours of Duolingo is equivalent to 2 college semesters. Those people in college are disproportionately doing it to fill out a language requirement for graduation, not because they want to. By contrast everybody on Duolingo is there exclusively because they want to be.
Rants aside, the point is that it makes much more sense to focus on the users who actively want to learn than trying to lure in those that don't and somehow hoping to convert them. And I think this is the exact path Khan Academy takes, which is why people still rave about Khan Academy while Duolingo, especially in its current state, is something relatively few are going to have especially glowing things to say about.
My experience: I decided to try a new language on Duo a couple months ago. I unfortunately used the word bubbles because I was too lazy to learn to type Cyrillic.
The result was, after 2 months, that I could spell nothing and knew almost no words. With the prompting from the word bubbles, it's far too easy to click on words and think you're learning. They don't even do a good job of providing high-likelihood alternatives in the word bubbles. Is it тут там or теш? Well, when you're "writing" a sentence with word bubbles, there's only one 3-letter word that starts with a T, so that's the one.
I finally learned to type Cyrillic and was embarrassed and very annoyed to realize that I actually knew virtually no words once I had to type them out.
I think it's exactly as you said: Duolingo pretends to teach, and users pretend to learn.
The result was, after 2 months, that I could spell nothing and knew almost no words. With the prompting from the word bubbles, it's far too easy to click on words and think you're learning. They don't even do a good job of providing high-likelihood alternatives in the word bubbles. Is it тут там or теш? Well, when you're "writing" a sentence with word bubbles, there's only one 3-letter word that starts with a T, so that's the one.
I finally learned to type Cyrillic and was embarrassed and very annoyed to realize that I actually knew virtually no words once I had to type them out.
I think it's exactly as you said: Duolingo pretends to teach, and users pretend to learn.
You've seen the worst side of Duolingo. Duolingo is rubbish for learning most languages, but the Russian and Ukrainian courses are particularly bad.
Not only do they not really teach you the Cyrillic language foundation, but they don't teach cases and tenses. The whole course is trial and error until you learn the handful of phrases they added in.
I think French and Spanish are the only courses on Duolingo that even give proper teaching, probably because they cover most people (Spanish for US citizens, and match up with US/UK school language curriculums). The rest of the languages have much shorter courses, with less content, no teaching, and poorly structured courses, mispronunciations.
My Russian other half forbade me from learning her language with Duolingo.
Not only do they not really teach you the Cyrillic language foundation, but they don't teach cases and tenses. The whole course is trial and error until you learn the handful of phrases they added in.
I think French and Spanish are the only courses on Duolingo that even give proper teaching, probably because they cover most people (Spanish for US citizens, and match up with US/UK school language curriculums). The rest of the languages have much shorter courses, with less content, no teaching, and poorly structured courses, mispronunciations.
My Russian other half forbade me from learning her language with Duolingo.
I started Ukrainian in Duolingo and 4 months later I can sorta kinda understand tweets in Ukrainian. The primary limitation is my vocabulary, I have to compensate by guessing through similarity to other slavic language. I can get gist of meaning from Ukrainian youtube videos.
With languages, passive understanding comes first, always. The active one is different and harder skill.
With languages, passive understanding comes first, always. The active one is different and harder skill.
> The entire point of Duolingo is to learn a foreign language. Somebody without an absolute mountain of intrinsic motivation is never going to do this, period
This is not true tho. I never ever had intrinsic motivation for languages. I never liked learning them. Even as I knew my future literally depends on me learning good English, I just kept doing bare minimum I could get away with. Fact is, I knew 2 foreign langues very well - I was fluent in both.
And now, my kids do not like learning foreign languages. But they have them in school and do duoling. While they dont like classes much, they are actually progressing and one of them is already capable to follow netflix series in English.
This is not true tho. I never ever had intrinsic motivation for languages. I never liked learning them. Even as I knew my future literally depends on me learning good English, I just kept doing bare minimum I could get away with. Fact is, I knew 2 foreign langues very well - I was fluent in both.
And now, my kids do not like learning foreign languages. But they have them in school and do duoling. While they dont like classes much, they are actually progressing and one of them is already capable to follow netflix series in English.
Growth never lasts. It is impossible
It's really damning that nowhere in that post does it mention improving the learning experience. Gamification, league boards, notifications etc. - but nothing about improving the service so users learn the languages better.
I spent 6 months or so doing the Finnish language (to completion) on Duolingo, and although it was good for practicing Finnish verb conjugations - the lack of a decent grammar tutorial means that you have to learn that elsewhere, which all start from scratch.
A decent set of books (Suomen Mestari in my case) and Anki are far more powerful for learning.
I spent 6 months or so doing the Finnish language (to completion) on Duolingo, and although it was good for practicing Finnish verb conjugations - the lack of a decent grammar tutorial means that you have to learn that elsewhere, which all start from scratch.
A decent set of books (Suomen Mestari in my case) and Anki are far more powerful for learning.
I was a Plus user until last autumn and after their new updates where they gamified everything, forced you to follow a single way of learning and made you to pay even over the normal subscription that was already quite expensive (was paying per month, 11.99), countless A/B tests where a features were added and removed every week, had different features and flows in the browser, iPhone or iPad decided to quit (3 different experiences).
The whole platform is no longer about language learning, it's just streaks and leagues (which in order to disable you need to disable the whole friends feature). They managed to make everything so frustrating by basically punishing you for mistakes and forcing you to unlock and purchase lives (even if you are a Plus user) that by the end, for me it was one of the most frustrating experiences that I had while trying to learn a new language.
The whole platform is no longer about language learning, it's just streaks and leagues (which in order to disable you need to disable the whole friends feature). They managed to make everything so frustrating by basically punishing you for mistakes and forcing you to unlock and purchase lives (even if you are a Plus user) that by the end, for me it was one of the most frustrating experiences that I had while trying to learn a new language.
The worst is having reminders like "You made Duo sad"... No, no, no! I'm not making it anything.
It's okay to say Duo is sad [you haven't practiced] but blaming a user for making It sad? That.. that takes some gall. It's off-putting and a questionable tactic.
It's okay to say Duo is sad [you haven't practiced] but blaming a user for making It sad? That.. that takes some gall. It's off-putting and a questionable tactic.
Duolingo uses all the manipulative tricks that a narcissist might use. Yesterday I got a notification using reverse psychology, roughly paraphrasing: Continue your X day streak, or don’t. Encouragement is Duo’s thing.
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I don't mean to single out your comment, but it seems like a majority of the comments on hacker news are so negative now.
Unfortunately, I have to say that Duolingo in particular has really annoyed their user base. I won't be surprised if they see a significant drop in users after this rapid growth. I've used it for a particular goal, but that won't keep me there forever (even on a family plan).
Yes, the reddit is full of kvetches, but there are a lot of very valid complaints as Duolingo removes major features (like stories) while people are learning from them or removes lesson choice and suddenly just drops you on "the path". And... there are the bugs. So many bugs. Things just don't work (literally UI buttons just DONT), answers are wrong, you get booted out of the app while running and have to restart. Feel free to file a bug nothing changes.
I won't go into the fact that they support a desktop, android, and iPhone other than to say (since I use all of them) that they are all VERY different, and only somewhat linked (as in they can become out of sync). I suspect that's part of both due to their subscriber growth method and technical debt. Probably, they're trying to rationalize things behind the scenes, but as they do everyone who had learned how to use it on each platform suddenly loses things/options/tools they had before to that common denominator. They're not giving you a configurable superset!
I get it, it's a hard problem, but don't be surprised when your rapid growth becomes unsustainable.
Yes, the reddit is full of kvetches, but there are a lot of very valid complaints as Duolingo removes major features (like stories) while people are learning from them or removes lesson choice and suddenly just drops you on "the path". And... there are the bugs. So many bugs. Things just don't work (literally UI buttons just DONT), answers are wrong, you get booted out of the app while running and have to restart. Feel free to file a bug nothing changes.
I won't go into the fact that they support a desktop, android, and iPhone other than to say (since I use all of them) that they are all VERY different, and only somewhat linked (as in they can become out of sync). I suspect that's part of both due to their subscriber growth method and technical debt. Probably, they're trying to rationalize things behind the scenes, but as they do everyone who had learned how to use it on each platform suddenly loses things/options/tools they had before to that common denominator. They're not giving you a configurable superset!
I get it, it's a hard problem, but don't be surprised when your rapid growth becomes unsustainable.
While I agree that Hacker News always hated technology, this article in particular looks like like self-parody.
There are 0 mentions about language learning or course quality in a blog post about how to grow a language learning app. Instead, the discussion turns on the way you give gems to users, late-night notifications, and the maximum amount of emails you can send per day before people start unsubscribing.
I get that this is a blog post about growth, but it says nothing about the product and you could :s/Duolingo/Candy Crush/ and the text would be equally valid. This looks like a fake blog post from Hooli in Silicon Valley.
There are 0 mentions about language learning or course quality in a blog post about how to grow a language learning app. Instead, the discussion turns on the way you give gems to users, late-night notifications, and the maximum amount of emails you can send per day before people start unsubscribing.
I get that this is a blog post about growth, but it says nothing about the product and you could :s/Duolingo/Candy Crush/ and the text would be equally valid. This looks like a fake blog post from Hooli in Silicon Valley.
Are you new here? HN is known for its iconic negative comments.
See also, my all time favorite; this comment about Dropbox from 2007: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224
> "For a Linux user, you can already build such a system yourself quite trivially by getting an FTP account, mounting it locally with curlftpfs, and then using SVN or CVS on the mounted filesystem. From Windows or Mac, this FTP account could be accessed through built-in software."
Quite trivial indeed.
See also, my all time favorite; this comment about Dropbox from 2007: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224
> "For a Linux user, you can already build such a system yourself quite trivially by getting an FTP account, mounting it locally with curlftpfs, and then using SVN or CVS on the mounted filesystem. From Windows or Mac, this FTP account could be accessed through built-in software."
Quite trivial indeed.
Yeah I was about to say, it's recency bias to think that only lately had HN comments been negative.
Is that supposed to be some kind of "gotcha" because dropbox became successful?
It was one users comment on how they felt about the app. I doubt it becoming popular changed it for them.
It was one users comment on how they felt about the app. I doubt it becoming popular changed it for them.
Eh, I'd argue Dropbox becoming popular is ancillary to the comment being an amusing example of a negative HN comment for a few reasons:
1. The comment categorically dismisses the entire product idea
2. As evidence for (1), the comment cites a rather complicated method that would arguably be out of reach for most users
3. The comment describes the method from (2) as "trivial"
So even if Dropbox had failed, the comment would still be entertaining, IMO.
1. The comment categorically dismisses the entire product idea
2. As evidence for (1), the comment cites a rather complicated method that would arguably be out of reach for most users
3. The comment describes the method from (2) as "trivial"
So even if Dropbox had failed, the comment would still be entertaining, IMO.
tbh, I wouldn't expect something different from a site named "hacker news". Hackers showing their skepticism regarding start ups and software business led by "typical business people". Hackers don't care about eternal growth and gamification...
I don't mean to single out your comment, but it seems like a plurality of comments on hacker news are so toxically positive now.
No estas beuno. That... is probably wrong. You know why? Because Duolingo actually sucks. And so does this teletubby attitude. Le da una siesta.
No estas beuno. That... is probably wrong. You know why? Because Duolingo actually sucks. And so does this teletubby attitude. Le da una siesta.
Maybe because people here are technical/skilled and understand that mostly such "growth hack" or "business oriented decisions" normally means gamification and therefore annoyance. Such "forever growth" expected by business people is just madness..
I hated it but I can see way.
If people are positive about something there usually isn't much to be said.
If people are positive about something there usually isn't much to be said.
Or maybe it’s reflective of the industry we’re in.
I see a lot of positive comments when good things come out, for example.
Setting aside the usual “do we really need to talk about every rust conversion” comments, nearly every rust article is followed by praising the language.
Or when there’s a new software people might enjoy using.
Many of the newer startups also get very positive comments.
I see a lot of positive comments when good things come out, for example.
Setting aside the usual “do we really need to talk about every rust conversion” comments, nearly every rust article is followed by praising the language.
Or when there’s a new software people might enjoy using.
Many of the newer startups also get very positive comments.
Maybe exercising to find positive things and describe them out loud would be a quality of life improvement.
I remember Product Hunt is like that, you are highly encouraged to only leave positive comments, so much that now I don't even read them or even visit the site because I know no constructive criticism will even be said, it's just all praise for every little thing.
I think that discontent is good for software and hardware.
But it destroys society, which is infinitely more important than software and hardware.
I think the fairly mild complaining about software trends is fundamentally different than the societal level rage we see fomenting politically on the extremes. I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment though.
One can argument that gamification and marketing destroy the society. Marketing specially.
I don't think the discontent on HN is in any way representative of discontent in the real world.
Really? I have the opposite impression, and I have noticed a gradual shift in tone on HN during the past decade that mirrors that which has happened in the world at large. There was always some discontent and negativity of course, but in style and sheer volume, today's HN has changed almost beyond recognition compared to what it was like in 2013.
I dunno dude, it used to be worse I think [1, 2]. Also everyone was bitching about the TSA all the time. Maybe the flame topics are more mainstream now that the low-level IT people outnumber the startup people?
[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1287212 [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1287573
[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1287212 [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1287573
maybe discontent is good for a product within a company, but if your end user has lots of complaints and is not having a great experience, that's not a good thing at all
Personally, I never found Duolingo to be a great app for learning a language. By far the best combo I’ve ever found is following along with Language Transfer [0] lessons and reviewing flash cards using Anki. Adding in-person classes to the mix greatly boosts that.
I’ve learned more Greek in 2 years now with that combo as an adult than I did in a decade learning Spanish as a child by only taking classes. The only thing more effective was living in a city that only spoke the language I was learning after I had achieved a certain level of proficiency.
Duolingo made me feel like I was learning a language and having fun while doing it, but every time I looked back on using it, I observed I really wasn’t learning very effectively with it. It’s far too robotic and impractical in my experience.
[0] https://www.languagetransfer.org/
I’ve learned more Greek in 2 years now with that combo as an adult than I did in a decade learning Spanish as a child by only taking classes. The only thing more effective was living in a city that only spoke the language I was learning after I had achieved a certain level of proficiency.
Duolingo made me feel like I was learning a language and having fun while doing it, but every time I looked back on using it, I observed I really wasn’t learning very effectively with it. It’s far too robotic and impractical in my experience.
[0] https://www.languagetransfer.org/
Thank you for this recommendation. A programme that actually makes all materials available for free and only lives on donations really must be trusting itself. It sounds in style similar to the Michel Thomas method.
I signed up for their premium service a couple months ago. No joke there’s like 3 entire seconds of extra super animation whenever you open the app. It doesn’t make any sense at all.
I subscribed last year, I thought a sustained period without ads would help concentrate my mind but gave up after a couple of weeks. I guess that paid off for Duolingo?
It seems like they have a cohort of developers who need to justify their existence by adding animation and gamification features at every opportunity.
A back to basics approach would be a good move but I doubt it will happen.
It seems like they have a cohort of developers who need to justify their existence by adding animation and gamification features at every opportunity.
A back to basics approach would be a good move but I doubt it will happen.
I'm a user with an almost 3000 day streak, but I mostly share your view in that I hate what it turned into - the constant dismissing of dialogs and the amount of ads are horrible. I updated the iOS app by mistake a few months ago - I was still using a 2 year old client which had maybe 25% of the badness of the new one. The completely linear path was a big annoyance, many options are harder to access, horrible all around.
With that said.... They keep me using it daily for almost 3000 consecutive days so must be doing something right:
- Awful as it may be, it's the least bad option I found - although I haven't looked at alternatives too recently. - The leagues system is actually fun and engaging, and it's having me rack up easily 400-500 points per week to avoid dropping in a lower league (or 600-800 if I end up in a very competitive group of people). Before that, I'd rarely go over 100.
I found the push notifications extremely irritating, especially the inability to deselect all of them except for the daily lesson reminder, there are quite a few nags always active - by design I'm sure. So my only alternative was to take away its notification permissions entirely from the iOS privacy settings, now I have to endure further in-app prompts inviting to enable them back. I think this will be what finally pushes me to leave the app entirely, especially if my search is fruitful - or maybe I'll revert to an old/cracked app given that most of the crap is local as I've read in the thread.
With that said.... They keep me using it daily for almost 3000 consecutive days so must be doing something right:
- Awful as it may be, it's the least bad option I found - although I haven't looked at alternatives too recently. - The leagues system is actually fun and engaging, and it's having me rack up easily 400-500 points per week to avoid dropping in a lower league (or 600-800 if I end up in a very competitive group of people). Before that, I'd rarely go over 100.
I found the push notifications extremely irritating, especially the inability to deselect all of them except for the daily lesson reminder, there are quite a few nags always active - by design I'm sure. So my only alternative was to take away its notification permissions entirely from the iOS privacy settings, now I have to endure further in-app prompts inviting to enable them back. I think this will be what finally pushes me to leave the app entirely, especially if my search is fruitful - or maybe I'll revert to an old/cracked app given that most of the crap is local as I've read in the thread.
Is that 3000 days on a single language, or multiple? How good at the language/languages have you become?
90% on a single language (German), and I'm comfortably beyond the "pizza order level" level of fluency, but probably still below a B1.
Trouble is, I meanwhile live in Germany and wouldn't be able to assign an exact figure to how much of my fluency is thanks to Duolingo, and how much is due to being exposed to the language in my daily life (comparatively little actually, as my job is in English, but far from zero).
Trouble is, I meanwhile live in Germany and wouldn't be able to assign an exact figure to how much of my fluency is thanks to Duolingo, and how much is due to being exposed to the language in my daily life (comparatively little actually, as my job is in English, but far from zero).
If you are spending 5 minutes a day on DuoLingo - then you've spent 250hours on it, which I think might be tight to get to B1 standard anyway (but might be possible) - but you're probably spending those 5 minutes whilst you wouldn't be doing other language learning.
Agreed. I love Duolingo and owe my second language to the app - I could never have become as fluent as I am without the foundation they provided. Yet the redesign is awful and I haven't been on the app in months as a result.
There’s a lot of negativity towards Duolingo in this post, and this is the top comment, so I might as well choose here to defend it.
Nobody has proffered a better alternative. There’s just a lot of complaining.
It’s pretty clearly implied by the nature of the complaints that Duolingo is one of, if not the, best way to develop a foundation for a new language. Being able to slowly develop correct pronunciation and the skills to read a new alphabet is nice. It feels effortless with Duolingo. Moving past basic grammar will take additional work outside of the app, but I would posit that it’s the early stages that are more likely to stop someone from learning a language. That’s where Duolingo excels. Language learning is extremely difficult, especially later in life, and Duolingo makes the most intimidating parts easy.
Personally I’m looking forward to language-learning conversationalists based on ChatGPT for conversation practice.
Nobody has proffered a better alternative. There’s just a lot of complaining.
It’s pretty clearly implied by the nature of the complaints that Duolingo is one of, if not the, best way to develop a foundation for a new language. Being able to slowly develop correct pronunciation and the skills to read a new alphabet is nice. It feels effortless with Duolingo. Moving past basic grammar will take additional work outside of the app, but I would posit that it’s the early stages that are more likely to stop someone from learning a language. That’s where Duolingo excels. Language learning is extremely difficult, especially later in life, and Duolingo makes the most intimidating parts easy.
Personally I’m looking forward to language-learning conversationalists based on ChatGPT for conversation practice.
> Nobody has proffered a better alternative.
Buy a textbook and get a teacher/tutor. Study vocab with an SRS (such as Anki or many others). Watch movies and TV shows, read books (for beginners at first). Listen to dialogues and shadow them for better pronunciation and fluidity. And so on. Even most alternatives in the app space (Babbel, Rosetta Stone, etc.) are arguably better than Duolingo.
Duolingo is successful because there's more people who like the idea of speaking another language than people who actually like the process of learning a language.
Buy a textbook and get a teacher/tutor. Study vocab with an SRS (such as Anki or many others). Watch movies and TV shows, read books (for beginners at first). Listen to dialogues and shadow them for better pronunciation and fluidity. And so on. Even most alternatives in the app space (Babbel, Rosetta Stone, etc.) are arguably better than Duolingo.
Duolingo is successful because there's more people who like the idea of speaking another language than people who actually like the process of learning a language.
This is ridiculous.
Equating a casual/convenient 10 Duolingo minutes a day with studying a textbook and paying for a teacher is absurd.
Your statement of why Duolingo is successful would equally apply to Rosetta Stone and Babbel, thus it doesn’t address the question.
I would never say you could achieve fluency with Duolingo. It’s just a good, fun, way to get the foundation that gives you the confidence to work with a textbook and tutor. Your suggestions are a terrible first step, and nobody has proffered better than Duolingo.
Equating a casual/convenient 10 Duolingo minutes a day with studying a textbook and paying for a teacher is absurd.
Your statement of why Duolingo is successful would equally apply to Rosetta Stone and Babbel, thus it doesn’t address the question.
I would never say you could achieve fluency with Duolingo. It’s just a good, fun, way to get the foundation that gives you the confidence to work with a textbook and tutor. Your suggestions are a terrible first step, and nobody has proffered better than Duolingo.
> Equating a casual/convenient 10 Duolingo minutes a day with studying a textbook and paying for a teacher is absurd.
Exactly.
You don't learn a language by doing 10 minutes a day.
> Your statement of why Duolingo is successful would equally apply to Rosetta Stone and Babbel, thus it doesn’t address the question.
Those services have their problem too and will probably not replace a proper textbooks, but at least Babbel offers proper courses created by actual language teachers that include actual instruction in the grammar of the language. It's more of a virtual textbook than the gamified hellhole that is Duolingo which, incidentally, is why the latter is so much more popular.
> Your suggestions are a terrible first step
I guess that's just your opinion then. I don't understand why you need to build "confidence" to work with a textbook and a tutor, and I don't even think that Duolingo gives you "confidence".
Exactly.
You don't learn a language by doing 10 minutes a day.
> Your statement of why Duolingo is successful would equally apply to Rosetta Stone and Babbel, thus it doesn’t address the question.
Those services have their problem too and will probably not replace a proper textbooks, but at least Babbel offers proper courses created by actual language teachers that include actual instruction in the grammar of the language. It's more of a virtual textbook than the gamified hellhole that is Duolingo which, incidentally, is why the latter is so much more popular.
> Your suggestions are a terrible first step
I guess that's just your opinion then. I don't understand why you need to build "confidence" to work with a textbook and a tutor, and I don't even think that Duolingo gives you "confidence".
I’ve tried your suggestions and they didn’t work where Duolingo did. Maybe “terrible” isn’t the right word in that they work for someone forced into a language (moving to a different country). In that situation, sure, Duolingo would be a bad approach.
Confidence, fun, easy, whatever you want to call it: casually learning a new language when you have no pressing reason to do so is where Duolingo shines. The gamified part is an annoyance to me, and definitely doesn’t make it a hellhole. I have to click through a few different activity-screens with some “gem” currency popping up. So what? I don’t know what they’re about, and it doesn’t affect my learning.
I’m grateful that someone has supplied me with a structured and organized order in which to learn the basics. All I have to do is sit on my ass for a short period of time a day to make sure I get the active recall that’s most pertinent to my learning. It’s designed from the ground up for mobile, and that’s a perfect medium for my use case.
You certainly can learn a language in 10 minutes a day; it just may take 5 years to be fluent enough for a basic/casual conversation. I’m in no rush. Personally I end up spending an hour some days. The rate at which you can learn grows exponentially as you understand more and the process becomes more fun. It’s the beginning where ease/effort of learning are important
I can reflect on the past few months I’ve spent learning Hebrew. It was particularly intimidating for me because the alphabet/script is very different. At this point, I can read and confidently pronounce 80% of the words in the language. This has been effortless where other approaches (like the ones you suggested) completely failed. They failed because I’m too lazy to deal with the logistics, but that highlights the success of Duolingo. Most importantly, the speed at which I’m learning relative to the effort I’m putting in is enjoyable to me.
And further, an IRL textbook alone is scientifically a terrible idea. Ingraining poor pronunciation (which will necessarily happen without audio) is crippling in the long term.
Confidence, fun, easy, whatever you want to call it: casually learning a new language when you have no pressing reason to do so is where Duolingo shines. The gamified part is an annoyance to me, and definitely doesn’t make it a hellhole. I have to click through a few different activity-screens with some “gem” currency popping up. So what? I don’t know what they’re about, and it doesn’t affect my learning.
I’m grateful that someone has supplied me with a structured and organized order in which to learn the basics. All I have to do is sit on my ass for a short period of time a day to make sure I get the active recall that’s most pertinent to my learning. It’s designed from the ground up for mobile, and that’s a perfect medium for my use case.
You certainly can learn a language in 10 minutes a day; it just may take 5 years to be fluent enough for a basic/casual conversation. I’m in no rush. Personally I end up spending an hour some days. The rate at which you can learn grows exponentially as you understand more and the process becomes more fun. It’s the beginning where ease/effort of learning are important
I can reflect on the past few months I’ve spent learning Hebrew. It was particularly intimidating for me because the alphabet/script is very different. At this point, I can read and confidently pronounce 80% of the words in the language. This has been effortless where other approaches (like the ones you suggested) completely failed. They failed because I’m too lazy to deal with the logistics, but that highlights the success of Duolingo. Most importantly, the speed at which I’m learning relative to the effort I’m putting in is enjoyable to me.
And further, an IRL textbook alone is scientifically a terrible idea. Ingraining poor pronunciation (which will necessarily happen without audio) is crippling in the long term.
Modern textbooks usually have audio. If not, I would agree. But yes - you should also get a conversation partner.
As for the rest of your comment: if Duolingo works for you and your goals, OK. I still would never recommend it to anyone for learning any language and many people in this comment section (as well as on many language forums etc.) agree. People who have been around language learning communities have seen many, many people coming from Duolingo with a totally warped understanding of the language and essentially no progress. Maybe you're an exception or maybe the Hebrew course is particularly good, idk.
As for the rest of your comment: if Duolingo works for you and your goals, OK. I still would never recommend it to anyone for learning any language and many people in this comment section (as well as on many language forums etc.) agree. People who have been around language learning communities have seen many, many people coming from Duolingo with a totally warped understanding of the language and essentially no progress. Maybe you're an exception or maybe the Hebrew course is particularly good, idk.
comfypotato(1)
Have you tried it? Obviously it won't be as structured as proper teaching, but I suspect that cajoling it into being a helpful language practice partner should be possible even as it is today.
It's language skills are crazy impressive. I've found there's no reason to not interact with it in my native language, it speaks and understands it just as well as English - and that was definitively not the case with earlier incarnations of GPT that I have tried.
It's language skills are crazy impressive. I've found there's no reason to not interact with it in my native language, it speaks and understands it just as well as English - and that was definitively not the case with earlier incarnations of GPT that I have tried.
I meant a version that had text to speech and speech to text incorporated so that you could actually talk to it.
I hadn’t considered textual conversations. That’s a good idea.
Personally I’m learning a couple of languages with foreign alphabets, so I’m really still in the stages of just learning the alphabets. (And Duolingo makes it possible by being casual and convenient.)
I hadn’t considered textual conversations. That’s a good idea.
Personally I’m learning a couple of languages with foreign alphabets, so I’m really still in the stages of just learning the alphabets. (And Duolingo makes it possible by being casual and convenient.)
I agree. Plus, I grew to actually like the path. I spend less time strategizing over what should I do next or feeling torn between reparation and progress. Turned out that the only reason I wanted the tree was that I could strategize over 2x bonus better ... which has zero to do with learning too.
I found myself more engaged after change to path.
I found myself more engaged after change to path.
Alternative: watch native content. Start with easy short content, build up to vlogs, series, movies.
The idea of 'convenient 10 minutes a day' will get you nowhere. People who seriously want to learn a language know it takes 1-2-3 hours of daily immersion. The only way '10 minutes a day' would work is if you lived in a country, were surrounded by the language and only counted 10 minutes you spend reviewing a grammar book.
What all those tools want are users who pay regularly. So if they taught you a language well you'd be gone in a year or two. Duolingo can is great at teaching you a language if you then had to use that language in Duolingo.
The idea of 'convenient 10 minutes a day' will get you nowhere. People who seriously want to learn a language know it takes 1-2-3 hours of daily immersion. The only way '10 minutes a day' would work is if you lived in a country, were surrounded by the language and only counted 10 minutes you spend reviewing a grammar book.
What all those tools want are users who pay regularly. So if they taught you a language well you'd be gone in a year or two. Duolingo can is great at teaching you a language if you then had to use that language in Duolingo.
Are you joking? Starting to learn a language by watching native content? Get out of here with your bullshit. And fuck you for implying I don’t actually want to learn a language on a thread defending a language learning app.
Getting to the point that you can consume media and actually learn a language is the hard part. That’s where Duolingo excels. Obviously fluency takes additional work.
Duolingo’s lessons for foreign alphabets are perfect examples. Some are better than others, but they all teach you how to read the script in a fun and time-manageable way. This aspect of Duolingo is free, fun, and it works.
I’ve made multiple attempts to learn languages with foreign alphabets before, and they’ve failed because of the logistics of studying the basics. Practicing and consuming content once you can function in the language is different, and it requires a different kind of motivation. I’ve never struggled with picking up additional vocab or grammar once the initial hurdles were overcome.
Getting to the point that you can consume media and actually learn a language is the hard part. That’s where Duolingo excels. Obviously fluency takes additional work.
Duolingo’s lessons for foreign alphabets are perfect examples. Some are better than others, but they all teach you how to read the script in a fun and time-manageable way. This aspect of Duolingo is free, fun, and it works.
I’ve made multiple attempts to learn languages with foreign alphabets before, and they’ve failed because of the logistics of studying the basics. Practicing and consuming content once you can function in the language is different, and it requires a different kind of motivation. I’ve never struggled with picking up additional vocab or grammar once the initial hurdles were overcome.
First of - rude. Why would you post something like this on a comment that was actually trying to share some tips with you? I kind of want to ignore it now and say 'well good luck then' but at the same time I want to ignore it and actually give you some advice.
That's how I started with language learning. There are channels that are dedicated to native content that's easy to understand. For example: Dreaming Spanish. You listen to content in you target language and learn sentence structure and vocabulary.
You asked 'is there alternative to Duolingo' and I gave you one. In return I got abuse. Not sure this was worth it.
That's how I started with language learning. There are channels that are dedicated to native content that's easy to understand. For example: Dreaming Spanish. You listen to content in you target language and learn sentence structure and vocabulary.
You asked 'is there alternative to Duolingo' and I gave you one. In return I got abuse. Not sure this was worth it.
Ironically, I’m realizing now that you may just be good in English as a non-first language. I assumed you were a native English speaker; your comment comes across as intentionally snarky and antagonistic. If I interpreted your comment as intentionally offensive, where you didn’t mean it as such, sorry. I only returned what I thought I was given. You implied my approach is ill-informed, and you gave absurd alternatives for my use case. I’m still pissed off thinking about it.
I’m not talking about Duolingo’s Spanish course. I have no experience with that. I actually speak decent Spanish learned from much more traditional means including textbooks, teachers, and then native speakers who enjoyed conversing with me once I was good enough.
I’m having great experience with Duolingo as the very first step of a much different language. (It’s the first thing that’s ever worked for me in this space, and at least my third try.) Your original comment suggested native content as a way to learn a language. This is ridiculous if you don’t even understand the alphabet. A children’s show specifically made for native children doesn’t work if you don’t have the very bare foundation. I can’t say I’ve tried your suggestions for these first steps because they are absurd.
Duolingo, on the other hand, makes these first steps particularly easy. It’s a free, structured, mobile-first, SRS-aware, active recall for alphabets and basic grammar where no decent comparable alternative exists.
Moving beyond the alphabets, basic grammar, and basic vocab: sure, consume native content. Personally I’m planning Pimsluer as my next step with my current undertaking as it’s SRS-aware and focuses on native media.
I’m not talking about Duolingo’s Spanish course. I have no experience with that. I actually speak decent Spanish learned from much more traditional means including textbooks, teachers, and then native speakers who enjoyed conversing with me once I was good enough.
I’m having great experience with Duolingo as the very first step of a much different language. (It’s the first thing that’s ever worked for me in this space, and at least my third try.) Your original comment suggested native content as a way to learn a language. This is ridiculous if you don’t even understand the alphabet. A children’s show specifically made for native children doesn’t work if you don’t have the very bare foundation. I can’t say I’ve tried your suggestions for these first steps because they are absurd.
Duolingo, on the other hand, makes these first steps particularly easy. It’s a free, structured, mobile-first, SRS-aware, active recall for alphabets and basic grammar where no decent comparable alternative exists.
Moving beyond the alphabets, basic grammar, and basic vocab: sure, consume native content. Personally I’m planning Pimsluer as my next step with my current undertaking as it’s SRS-aware and focuses on native media.
No, English is not my first language. "You implied my approach is ill-informed, and you gave absurd alternatives for my use case. I’m still pissed off thinking about it." - that was not my intention at all. Because there isn't a right approach to learning a language. Your original comment asked for an alternative to Duolingo so I provided you with one.
I believe there's been more research done to the method I recommend than to Duolingo - that's why I thought it's worth mentioning it. But if it doesn't work for you, don't use it. If you want to study 5min a day - do it. My comment was recommending a specific approach that I (and the community I'm a part of) use and believe it works.
But if you look at 'content' kids experience first it's words and sentences used in specific situations. Only later having this knowledge they learn the alphabet, numbers, grammar. I know more English grammar than I do of my own native language - I'm pretty sure I know more English grammar rules than an average native English speaker (at least looking at my group of friends). It makes me better at taking a test or writing a very detailed and technical article (which currently I do none of) but won't help much in normal conversations.
Sure, learn the alphabet, learn the most common words but that can also be achieved with free online content. I wasn't saying you shouldn't be doing it. I was only answering your first comment where you said everyone complains on Duolingo but no one has an alternative. I provided you with one that I know others (like myself) use.
I have tried Duolingo in the past and the only dangerous thing is that it was a great experience. Did it teach me anything other than hello/bye/boy eats bread? Not really. I also can compare my experience of focusing on consuming content to Duolingo because one of my mates did Duolingo for a long time. After about 6 months he looked at content I watch - in this case it was Dreaming Spanish. I was at a point of watching Intermediate videos (short ones because they required a lot of focus), he couldn't understand any of it. I'm not saying that's the case for all users, this is just me comparing 2 users of different systems.
"Moving beyond the alphabets, basic grammar, and basic vocab: sure, consume native content." - that's my worry with Duolingo. People get so used to the little level ups and 'X day streak' that they continue doing it feeling like they're progressing. Which they probably are but very slowly as it doesn't teach conversational language. The only part of Duolingo I felt like I enjoyed were the stories (the old version of them) or the conversations. But all the animations and videos around them made it so difficult to focus on learning that I gave up.
I believe there's been more research done to the method I recommend than to Duolingo - that's why I thought it's worth mentioning it. But if it doesn't work for you, don't use it. If you want to study 5min a day - do it. My comment was recommending a specific approach that I (and the community I'm a part of) use and believe it works.
But if you look at 'content' kids experience first it's words and sentences used in specific situations. Only later having this knowledge they learn the alphabet, numbers, grammar. I know more English grammar than I do of my own native language - I'm pretty sure I know more English grammar rules than an average native English speaker (at least looking at my group of friends). It makes me better at taking a test or writing a very detailed and technical article (which currently I do none of) but won't help much in normal conversations.
Sure, learn the alphabet, learn the most common words but that can also be achieved with free online content. I wasn't saying you shouldn't be doing it. I was only answering your first comment where you said everyone complains on Duolingo but no one has an alternative. I provided you with one that I know others (like myself) use.
I have tried Duolingo in the past and the only dangerous thing is that it was a great experience. Did it teach me anything other than hello/bye/boy eats bread? Not really. I also can compare my experience of focusing on consuming content to Duolingo because one of my mates did Duolingo for a long time. After about 6 months he looked at content I watch - in this case it was Dreaming Spanish. I was at a point of watching Intermediate videos (short ones because they required a lot of focus), he couldn't understand any of it. I'm not saying that's the case for all users, this is just me comparing 2 users of different systems.
"Moving beyond the alphabets, basic grammar, and basic vocab: sure, consume native content." - that's my worry with Duolingo. People get so used to the little level ups and 'X day streak' that they continue doing it feeling like they're progressing. Which they probably are but very slowly as it doesn't teach conversational language. The only part of Duolingo I felt like I enjoyed were the stories (the old version of them) or the conversations. But all the animations and videos around them made it so difficult to focus on learning that I gave up.
If you read my first comment, you’ll see that I have had my sights towards moving away from Duolingo (and towards conversational material) from the beginning.
Dreaming Spanish sounds nice. Now that I see this is what you were talking about when you said “native content”, I see the breakdown in our conversation. Typical wisdom for enhancing fluency is to find random/varied media to consume. This is what I was calling absurd for building a foundation. Dreaming Spanish, on the other hand, is literally advertised as a language learning tool. And it does seem like a very modern evidence-based approach.
Were there a Hebrew version of Dreaming Spanish, I would likely supplement my learning with it after finishing some basic courses in Duolingo. Mostly, in the case of Duolingo Hebrew, I’ve been greatly enjoying how well their alphabet course is made the last few months. Currently my next plan is Pimsleur because they have a nice mobile app.
Dreaming Spanish sounds nice. Now that I see this is what you were talking about when you said “native content”, I see the breakdown in our conversation. Typical wisdom for enhancing fluency is to find random/varied media to consume. This is what I was calling absurd for building a foundation. Dreaming Spanish, on the other hand, is literally advertised as a language learning tool. And it does seem like a very modern evidence-based approach.
Were there a Hebrew version of Dreaming Spanish, I would likely supplement my learning with it after finishing some basic courses in Duolingo. Mostly, in the case of Duolingo Hebrew, I’ve been greatly enjoying how well their alphabet course is made the last few months. Currently my next plan is Pimsleur because they have a nice mobile app.
There is huge big difference between what you wrote "Start with easy short content, build up to vlogs, series, movies." and "dreaming spanish".
Dreaming Spanish is literally alternative structured course. It is not nearly the same as starting by consuming media outside of structured course.
Dreaming Spanish is literally alternative structured course. It is not nearly the same as starting by consuming media outside of structured course.
I don't see Dreaming Spanish as a structured course. If you do, ok, my recommendation might not make as much sense.
The way I see Dreaming Spanish is an adult version of kids shows where they point at things and explain things in simple terms. If kids shows were more interesting to adults I'd happily watch them over Dreaming Spanish. And there are shows like Bingo that are easy to understand, short and engaging enough for adults (or at least engaging enough for me).
The way I see Dreaming Spanish is an adult version of kids shows where they point at things and explain things in simple terms. If kids shows were more interesting to adults I'd happily watch them over Dreaming Spanish. And there are shows like Bingo that are easy to understand, short and engaging enough for adults (or at least engaging enough for me).
How is it NOT structured course? It was literally designed as a structured course teaching you the language step by step. It was made by teachers for students with the intention to teach the language. I am inclined to believe you that it is effective. If I ever get serious about Spanish, I might try it out.
And also, undestading shows like bingo or kids shows requires already existing knowledge of words. You will not figure out meaning of words purely based on watching them.
And also, undestading shows like bingo or kids shows requires already existing knowledge of words. You will not figure out meaning of words purely based on watching them.
Maybe we just have different definitions of a structured course?
To me a structured course is:
*Here's a video, here's exercise, that's homework, this is a little fragment to read.
The videos are not connected in any way, I can watch them in any order. Most of the creators aren't teachers, they don't talk in a way that a usual structured course would: 'here's a list of 10 animals: dog, cat, fox' asking you to repeat after them.
A lot of the videos are pretty much 'day in life', 'my thoughts on', 'something interesting about..' - I could see them as early 2000s youtube videos where everyone had a vlog.
I wouldn't call it a structured course. I see it as a great contributor to a learning system that's comprehensible input - but there are many other creators that contribute to it. But if you see it as structured course, ok :)
The videos are not connected in any way, I can watch them in any order. Most of the creators aren't teachers, they don't talk in a way that a usual structured course would: 'here's a list of 10 animals: dog, cat, fox' asking you to repeat after them.
A lot of the videos are pretty much 'day in life', 'my thoughts on', 'something interesting about..' - I could see them as early 2000s youtube videos where everyone had a vlog.
I wouldn't call it a structured course. I see it as a great contributor to a learning system that's comprehensible input - but there are many other creators that contribute to it. But if you see it as structured course, ok :)
> People who seriously want to learn a language know it takes 1-2-3 hours of daily immersion.
That is considerable amount of effort that will definitely get you far. However, I know many people who did learned foreign language and the amount of concentrated effort you write about would be unusual for them. Sure, it took years, but no, full hour of daily immersion on regular would be exceptional.
That is considerable amount of effort that will definitely get you far. However, I know many people who did learned foreign language and the amount of concentrated effort you write about would be unusual for them. Sure, it took years, but no, full hour of daily immersion on regular would be exceptional.
It really depends on the language, Japanese takes much longer than Spanish for English speakers for example.
And yeah, you don't need to invest several hours each day - that's unrealistic for most people. But I also think you get nowhere by doing just 10 minutes a day, even if you do it every day for years. You need to set aside time for conscious learning, e.g. on weekends. Then you could e.g. do the 10 minutes a day during the weeks for reviewing vocab, or reading short texts, or whatever.
I don't think you can do it without the occasional "crunch time".
(There's also the fact, of course, that the better you get at your target language the less will consuming content feel like a chore to you and so you can tolerate more of it, and even enjoy it.)
And yeah, you don't need to invest several hours each day - that's unrealistic for most people. But I also think you get nowhere by doing just 10 minutes a day, even if you do it every day for years. You need to set aside time for conscious learning, e.g. on weekends. Then you could e.g. do the 10 minutes a day during the weeks for reviewing vocab, or reading short texts, or whatever.
I don't think you can do it without the occasional "crunch time".
(There's also the fact, of course, that the better you get at your target language the less will consuming content feel like a chore to you and so you can tolerate more of it, and even enjoy it.)
I actually think that 10 minutes a day can get you pretty far, especially for beginner. Namely, to slowly get you to a stage when you are able to read those short texts over weekend. Ability to read a short text is fairly large step in learning language. And even then, reading 10 minutes day is going to be more effective then reading for 70 minutes once a week.
10 minutes a day, whether duolingo or not, will get you further then 70 minutes once a week in a crunch mode. That holds for language, playing musical instrument, sport, whatever. The hardest part in those is to keep interest and touch with activity over the long time it requires. And the big enemy are months when you pause the activity entirely.
Obviously you have to mix the learning modes. And obviously the more time you put into it the better.
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I also think that people get naive about amount of time people actually spend learning when going to classes in school or after school club. Typically, get 1-2 lessons a week plus some homework. Sometimes you get 3, but any more then that is unusually intensive. The typical expectation when going to in-person classes is that yes, it will take years till you are anywhere near good command of the language. That a year after, you can survive your way, but still cant consume most of normal media without subtitles. Those are reasonable expectations.
10 minutes a day, whether duolingo or not, will get you further then 70 minutes once a week in a crunch mode. That holds for language, playing musical instrument, sport, whatever. The hardest part in those is to keep interest and touch with activity over the long time it requires. And the big enemy are months when you pause the activity entirely.
Obviously you have to mix the learning modes. And obviously the more time you put into it the better.
---------------
I also think that people get naive about amount of time people actually spend learning when going to classes in school or after school club. Typically, get 1-2 lessons a week plus some homework. Sometimes you get 3, but any more then that is unusually intensive. The typical expectation when going to in-person classes is that yes, it will take years till you are anywhere near good command of the language. That a year after, you can survive your way, but still cant consume most of normal media without subtitles. Those are reasonable expectations.
> 10 minutes a day, whether duolingo or not, will get you further then 70 minutes once a week in a crunch mode. That holds for language, playing musical instrument, sport, whatever. The hardest part in those is to keep interest and touch with activity over the long time it requires. And the big enemy are months when you pause the activity entirely.
My point is that you need both. Reviewing vocab etc. can be done as part of the "daily 10 minutes" (although it usually takes me longer). But learning about new grammar etc. usually takes longer than just 10 minutes. And once in a while you just have to sit down and read a more complicated text, looking up vocab, etc.
Again, it pretty much also depends on the language. For Japanese, I think it's impossible to get anywhere with just 10 minutes a day, I think.
My point is that you need both. Reviewing vocab etc. can be done as part of the "daily 10 minutes" (although it usually takes me longer). But learning about new grammar etc. usually takes longer than just 10 minutes. And once in a while you just have to sit down and read a more complicated text, looking up vocab, etc.
Again, it pretty much also depends on the language. For Japanese, I think it's impossible to get anywhere with just 10 minutes a day, I think.
It is a lot of time. But at some point, when you start understanding more, something as simple as watching 20 minutes of The Simpsons in language you're learning instead of English is an immersion. You listen to a podcast or a radio and when you feel like watching random YouTube videos you do it in that language. All of this adds up.
I'm currently averaging 1.5h of video/audio a day and sure, some days it feels like a lot - work is busy, I have to go to the office, gym, and all.
But I'm trying to cross the line of 'I can understand without having to focus really hard' as quickly as I can because then immersion is so much easier. TV, books, podcasts - what I do on a daily basis will all count towards my immersion.
I'm currently averaging 1.5h of video/audio a day and sure, some days it feels like a lot - work is busy, I have to go to the office, gym, and all.
But I'm trying to cross the line of 'I can understand without having to focus really hard' as quickly as I can because then immersion is so much easier. TV, books, podcasts - what I do on a daily basis will all count towards my immersion.
Watching The Simpsons is not simple. If you watch movies and shows, you are pretty far along. Podcasts and radio are even further, they are super far. You get no subtitles with these, you get no context clues from visuals. Just the sheer size of vocabulary you need and ability to parse spoken sentence. I was able to converse with Americans (have actual discussion) long before I was able to understand English in shows.
I am not native English speaker. I did learned 2 foreign languages. One of them was through very intensive program, the other one without that. It consistently seem to be that these advices are skipping the beginning and also do not conform to either my personal experience or what I observed in others.
Like, obviously you learn faster if you go in super intensive. No question about that. And your interest will fluctuate.
I am not native English speaker. I did learned 2 foreign languages. One of them was through very intensive program, the other one without that. It consistently seem to be that these advices are skipping the beginning and also do not conform to either my personal experience or what I observed in others.
Like, obviously you learn faster if you go in super intensive. No question about that. And your interest will fluctuate.
What I said is "But at some point, when you start understanding more, something as simple as watching 20 minutes of The Simpsons in language you're learning instead of English is an immersion. "
I don't suggest watching shows from day 1. It did take me some time to build up to being able to sit through a 20/30/40 minute TV show and actually be able to follow the story. I wouldn't recommend it to people who are just starting out though. It's best they start with very short and very simple content that's fully in their target language but is created by people who know their audience is learning.
I don't suggest watching shows from day 1. It did take me some time to build up to being able to sit through a 20/30/40 minute TV show and actually be able to follow the story. I wouldn't recommend it to people who are just starting out though. It's best they start with very short and very simple content that's fully in their target language but is created by people who know their audience is learning.
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I had a similar experience. I used it years ago, then I went back to it a little while back and ended up quitting for two reasons:
1. The gamification was too cutesy and annoying. And gamification works on me - I'm currently being held prisoner by my streak on another platform.
2. I didn't feel it was actually teaching me. I was being tested on words that hadn't been introduced. Trial and error is not a fun way to learn.
1. The gamification was too cutesy and annoying. And gamification works on me - I'm currently being held prisoner by my streak on another platform.
2. I didn't feel it was actually teaching me. I was being tested on words that hadn't been introduced. Trial and error is not a fun way to learn.
Duolingo never tests you on new brand words in my experience. Whenever a new word is introduced, it is "clickable" (touchable?) in the sentence to show the definition. Maybe that's just my course though. Sometimes the new words are highlighed, other times (if I spend 20 gems for a "harder" lesson) they are not highlighted but still clickable.
The only time words are not clickable is during the legenrday challenges. I guess this is where you are seeing them.
The only time words are not clickable is during the legenrday challenges. I guess this is where you are seeing them.
>I really, really hate what Duolingo has become.
And here is the main driving cause of the change as stated by the author: "By mid-2018, daily active users (DAU) were growing at a single-digit rate year-over-year, which was troubling, given the explosive growth the company had seen in the past. This was a problem for a startup with investors anxious to see fast monetization growth."
And here is the main driving cause of the change as stated by the author: "By mid-2018, daily active users (DAU) were growing at a single-digit rate year-over-year, which was troubling, given the explosive growth the company had seen in the past. This was a problem for a startup with investors anxious to see fast monetization growth."
Also, they've messed up the learning algo so now you get to learn about what's a room and a dog after learning German for 5 years.
Amazing progress.
Amazing progress.
Nobody ever got fluent by using Duolingo. It gives a false sense of progress by being so gamified.
The first thing I tell people is to ditch it if they’re serious about learning a second language, and go pay $20/month for Pimsleur.
The first thing I tell people is to ditch it if they’re serious about learning a second language, and go pay $20/month for Pimsleur.
I think the higher level advice is to always be doing at least 2 things for language learning. You get nice combos from the synergy, gives you more opportunities to recall info outside of the app/class, and just is generally more motivating.
Agreed, with the caveat that having one of those two sources be Duolingo is a waste. Pair Pimsleur with a grammar book and vocab cards, or an hour a week of italki, and you'd be using your time much better.
For spanish I really like Lingolia. It's not expensive and well made.
I don't know Lingolia, but I used Lingoda (https://www.lingoda.com/en/) to learn French and was really good.
How Lingolia reignited user growth!
For me, the main reason for Duolingo's drastic decline in quality is not solely due to gamification but due to their learning algorithm no longer being effective.
I was one of the early beta users and joined Duolingo in June 2012 before it was publicly available, and was a huge fan in the early days. At one point I had a streak of 1,000+ consecutive days, and even applied to work there.[0]
Back then, Duolingo used the SRS algorithm[1] and it was very helpful in keeping me on track with my learning.
The original business model was to make money from community translations.[2] I think they soon discovered that this market wasn’t nearly big enough to sustain Duolingo as a going concern, so they pivoted to an advertising-based business model.
However, the software supporting the original “translations” business model is still in place, so the way they teach you new words is prompting you with sentence pairs to translate. For example, they’ll give you an English sentence and ask you to translate it into Spanish. I find this isn’t an effective way to learn a new language because you’re not learning to think in your target language, you’re learning how to match words between your native language and the target language, which is not the same thing.
Sentence matching is unnatural and requires neural pathways that are never used by native speakers; native speakers don’t think in English and then translate into Spanish when speaking. To be able to fluently speak the language, I found that a “call and response” model is the best way to learn. For example, given a question that a real person would ask (“What do you like about your job?”), you have to creatively formulate a natural answer (“I have a lot of intellectual freedom”) without any “guardrails” of a scripted English sentence provided by the app.
“Call and response” more accurately models how people actually speak in real conversations—you take turns talking like a normal human being. It is also more difficult and requires effortful assimilation of concepts instead of just words. To learn, you must make mistakes, so the most effective learning techniques are also the most frustrating. Coming up with novel responses forces you to fully engage in the dialogue, which efficiently helps you to lay down neural pathways that you will use in a real conversation.
Duolingo is optimized for ad revenue, so they can’t give you difficult challenges because you’ll just give up. Instead, they must spoon-feed you 1:1 sentence translations or “fill in the blank” type challenges because this rewards you with a dopamine rush from their slot-machine-like “ding!” sounds and green checkmarks that pop up when you successfully fill in the blanks. Instead of encouraging you to make mistakes, Duolingo will penalize you by forcing you to redo entire lessons (instead of targeting practice towards your weaker words), sweep mistakes under the rug, or making you pay money for gems. While the paid version removes the ads, it doesn't remove the algorithm that serves lessons optimized for ad-interrupted learning.
Duolingo touts their effectiveness study[3] as evidence that its methods are scientifically supported with a claim that “an average of 34 hours of Duolingo are equivalent to a full university semester of language education”. However, this study was conducted in 2012 under Duolingo’s old SRS algorithm before they changed their teaching model to matching-based problem sets, got rid of their call and response questions, and implemented hearts, gems, and lingots that penalize mistakes, so I don't think this evidence applies to the current app anymore.
Unfortunately, due to these changes I now disrecommend Duolingo for folks wanting to learn a new language, even though it was a pivotal and cherished part of my language learning journey back in the day.
[0] https://billmei.net/blog/silicon-valley-job-search#duolingo
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaced_repetition
[2] https://www.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeedpress/buzzfeed-expands-inte...
[3] https://s3.amazonaws.com/duolingo-papers/other/vesselinov-gr...
I was one of the early beta users and joined Duolingo in June 2012 before it was publicly available, and was a huge fan in the early days. At one point I had a streak of 1,000+ consecutive days, and even applied to work there.[0]
Back then, Duolingo used the SRS algorithm[1] and it was very helpful in keeping me on track with my learning.
The original business model was to make money from community translations.[2] I think they soon discovered that this market wasn’t nearly big enough to sustain Duolingo as a going concern, so they pivoted to an advertising-based business model.
However, the software supporting the original “translations” business model is still in place, so the way they teach you new words is prompting you with sentence pairs to translate. For example, they’ll give you an English sentence and ask you to translate it into Spanish. I find this isn’t an effective way to learn a new language because you’re not learning to think in your target language, you’re learning how to match words between your native language and the target language, which is not the same thing.
Sentence matching is unnatural and requires neural pathways that are never used by native speakers; native speakers don’t think in English and then translate into Spanish when speaking. To be able to fluently speak the language, I found that a “call and response” model is the best way to learn. For example, given a question that a real person would ask (“What do you like about your job?”), you have to creatively formulate a natural answer (“I have a lot of intellectual freedom”) without any “guardrails” of a scripted English sentence provided by the app.
“Call and response” more accurately models how people actually speak in real conversations—you take turns talking like a normal human being. It is also more difficult and requires effortful assimilation of concepts instead of just words. To learn, you must make mistakes, so the most effective learning techniques are also the most frustrating. Coming up with novel responses forces you to fully engage in the dialogue, which efficiently helps you to lay down neural pathways that you will use in a real conversation.
Duolingo is optimized for ad revenue, so they can’t give you difficult challenges because you’ll just give up. Instead, they must spoon-feed you 1:1 sentence translations or “fill in the blank” type challenges because this rewards you with a dopamine rush from their slot-machine-like “ding!” sounds and green checkmarks that pop up when you successfully fill in the blanks. Instead of encouraging you to make mistakes, Duolingo will penalize you by forcing you to redo entire lessons (instead of targeting practice towards your weaker words), sweep mistakes under the rug, or making you pay money for gems. While the paid version removes the ads, it doesn't remove the algorithm that serves lessons optimized for ad-interrupted learning.
Duolingo touts their effectiveness study[3] as evidence that its methods are scientifically supported with a claim that “an average of 34 hours of Duolingo are equivalent to a full university semester of language education”. However, this study was conducted in 2012 under Duolingo’s old SRS algorithm before they changed their teaching model to matching-based problem sets, got rid of their call and response questions, and implemented hearts, gems, and lingots that penalize mistakes, so I don't think this evidence applies to the current app anymore.
Unfortunately, due to these changes I now disrecommend Duolingo for folks wanting to learn a new language, even though it was a pivotal and cherished part of my language learning journey back in the day.
[0] https://billmei.net/blog/silicon-valley-job-search#duolingo
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaced_repetition
[2] https://www.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeedpress/buzzfeed-expands-inte...
[3] https://s3.amazonaws.com/duolingo-papers/other/vesselinov-gr...
> […]I now disrecommend Duolingo for folks wanting to learn a new language[…]
What App would you recommend now?
What App would you recommend now?
I recommend the content and especially the forums on http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/e/index.html. Different languages have different best resources.
Assimil are normally a good bet in my experience.
Assimil are normally a good bet in my experience.
went to see if that website had any suggestion for Greek. Books: "not very much, unfortunately". Schools: "again, not very many places offer a course". The forums are simply not loading.
The new (as in literally users that migrated after the owner of the other website stopped doing anything other than keeping the server running) forum is: https://forum.language-learners.org/
Oh thanks, I didn’t realise things had migrated. It’s been years since I was on the forum but I remember it being very helpful and pretty active so I’m glad it’s still going in another form.
For most people, I now recommend the Pimsleur[0] method as it explicitly teaches the “call and response” model, which I find most effective for the reasons I mentioned in my comment.
[0] https://www.pimsleur.com/
[0] https://www.pimsleur.com/
That's "enshittification" for you.
All apps start off good, because they actually have to deliver value to the end-user. Once there are enough end-users, it's time for investors to take some (if not all) of that value. Suddenly you'll need a larger base of users, on the app for longer amounts of time. It's not enough for them to learn, they also have to start buying things in the app.
Every B2C mobile app faces this exact dead end.
All apps start off good, because they actually have to deliver value to the end-user. Once there are enough end-users, it's time for investors to take some (if not all) of that value. Suddenly you'll need a larger base of users, on the app for longer amounts of time. It's not enough for them to learn, they also have to start buying things in the app.
Every B2C mobile app faces this exact dead end.
From the article:
> ...This was a problem for a startup with investors anxious to see fast monetization growth.
Seems as if Duolingo had been more conservative with its fundraising, it wouldn't have needed to resort to actions that might take it further away its goal of teaching a language? Do you really need almost $200M to build a business like Duolingo?
Seems as if Duolingo had been more conservative with its fundraising, it wouldn't have needed to resort to actions that might take it further away its goal of teaching a language? Do you really need almost $200M to build a business like Duolingo?
They've done a great job at making it an addictive experience. I'm committed to keeping my streak even though I'm not making nearly as much progress as I expected on my actual Spanish.
Agreed! I have recently started using it again and found if I only do one lesson a day I can close it just as the ad has started. It used to be great and now it’s horrible.
Anecdotally, the timed challenges are surprisingly difficult in some cases and have been a great learning experience for me.
They are actually impossible, you can't even click that fast. You are supposed to buy the extender or whatever.
The initial ones are manageable but not if you have to listen to how each word is pronounced. I'm not sure what the maximum level is but I think you're right that it's impossible to solve all of them without the time extender.
You have to know the words well enough that you don't need to listen and just read directly.
FWIW I just got max level (it's a non-Latin language so the initial exercises are all repetitions of recognizing certain glyphs and their combinations) and it turns out that there's nothing special about it except you get to repeat it instead of moving on to a higher difficulty. So "it's actually not possible to beat it" is probably more of a calibration issue than a blatant money grab. The only reward is more XP.
that was exactly my thought.. while reading the article "bla bla bla" I was like "ok, the application became annoying"
Personally, I never find Duolingo great for learning language to begin with.
I (tried to) use it to learn Asian languages, for what it's worth.
I (tried to) use it to learn Asian languages, for what it's worth.
The trend of making more money on the users you can abuse by penalising more quality sensitive users is horrible.
Hmm... this is an article about an app that grew in popularity in 2020 - 2022 and had a really huge jump around March of 2020.
I wonder what exciting growth hack they added in March of 2020? Did anyone happen to see that in the article? I noticed several other apps, like Netflix, had jumps around then too. Did they subscribe to the same growth hacker newsletter?
I wonder what exciting growth hack they added in March of 2020? Did anyone happen to see that in the article? I noticed several other apps, like Netflix, had jumps around then too. Did they subscribe to the same growth hacker newsletter?
It's only COVID if numbers go down, otherwise it is claimed as impact on self review.
I'm pretty sure it went viral
As someone who picked up Duolingo on a whim at the start of the first covid lockdown as something to do with all the free time I suddenly had (and to escape from the doomsday messaging on TV news), I think this comment has more value than the entire OP.
Coming up on Year 3 of Duolingo in a couple of weeks, and agree 100% that Duolingo has gone from a fun, language-learning app, to an over-gamified app that I use just to maintain my "streak" rather than to learn something new.
Coming up on Year 3 of Duolingo in a couple of weeks, and agree 100% that Duolingo has gone from a fun, language-learning app, to an over-gamified app that I use just to maintain my "streak" rather than to learn something new.
Oh there was growth alright
Some growth hacker newsletter starts with C.
As a user, I feel that Duolingo is a great tool for developing language learning habits and allowing people to "play", but it may only take people up to B1 level, not higher.
I would love for Duolingo to focus more on content, and not just on gamification. Right now, the main courses (such as Spanish and German) are great, but many courses are short, lack grammar tips, and have mistakes.
Even the Spanish course has problems: I am currently on unit 175 out of 211, and I have noticed that the lessons gradually have more and more problems. Some phrases are stiff, some are completely unnatural (and people complain in the comments), sometimes there are only a handful of accepted translations and we are forced to guess, and sometimes translations are inconsistent - even though several questions have a similar structure, the accepted answers are different.
Another point is the recent redesign. Personally, I'm okay with it and I have no problem with changing the tree into the path. What I didn't like is that the course was artificially inflated, and now we have to repeat the same things many times. One could argue that repetition is key to learning a language, but it can get tedious when you have to answer the same question multiple times without making any mistakes. Furthermore, the exercises themselves are becoming easier - previously there were more questions where it was necessary to type in the full translation, but now in most exercises we only need to input a single word or rearrange the word cards.
Lastly, many people who seriously participate in the leaderboard ranking don't actually learn the language, they simply farm experience. Their usual approach is to rack up XP bonuses and redo a single exercise dozens and even hundreds of times in a row. It's sad that this behavior is encouraged.
As for myself, I use Duolingo simply as an additional practice tool. I use many other resources for actual language learning. I recently reached Spanish B2 level, and many years ago, I reached German B2 and Japanese N3.
I would love for Duolingo to focus more on content, and not just on gamification. Right now, the main courses (such as Spanish and German) are great, but many courses are short, lack grammar tips, and have mistakes.
Even the Spanish course has problems: I am currently on unit 175 out of 211, and I have noticed that the lessons gradually have more and more problems. Some phrases are stiff, some are completely unnatural (and people complain in the comments), sometimes there are only a handful of accepted translations and we are forced to guess, and sometimes translations are inconsistent - even though several questions have a similar structure, the accepted answers are different.
Another point is the recent redesign. Personally, I'm okay with it and I have no problem with changing the tree into the path. What I didn't like is that the course was artificially inflated, and now we have to repeat the same things many times. One could argue that repetition is key to learning a language, but it can get tedious when you have to answer the same question multiple times without making any mistakes. Furthermore, the exercises themselves are becoming easier - previously there were more questions where it was necessary to type in the full translation, but now in most exercises we only need to input a single word or rearrange the word cards.
Lastly, many people who seriously participate in the leaderboard ranking don't actually learn the language, they simply farm experience. Their usual approach is to rack up XP bonuses and redo a single exercise dozens and even hundreds of times in a row. It's sad that this behavior is encouraged.
As for myself, I use Duolingo simply as an additional practice tool. I use many other resources for actual language learning. I recently reached Spanish B2 level, and many years ago, I reached German B2 and Japanese N3.
> previously there were more questions where it was necessary to type in the full translation, but now in most exercises we only need to input a single word or rearrange the word cards.
This is a complaint I keep seeing regarding the new layout, but it seems disingenuous to me, as every one who notes it also skips over the fact that the linear lessons now also have large yet optional testing components at the end of every section. If you choose to skip these, yes, you are going to see many easier questions, as the nodes on the track are lessons. The tests are almost exclusively long form written questions, not the easy format you describe.
For all of the gripes of the new linear path format, this choice in how you learn is never put forward.
Before the format change, this separation of easy vs hard didn't really exist, not even on L5 for the nodes that made them finish and go purple.
In my experience, this has allowed me to focus in the end of section tests, where I still regular fail to pass due to the 3 lives provided. This forced use of long form + no mistakes has really forced me to understand and parse my errors. For all the complaining that I've seen in the in-app comments for certain translations being incorrectly rejected, I've yet to come across one myself. Instead, it's always something else that I got just almost right, but still wrong. A bad gender, missing/wrong participle, pronoun in wrong place, typo etc. It's really hard to spot your own errors especially when it will only give you a single correct answer back when you got it wrong (despite many other valid translations are accepted and understand too). Being able to spot your own errors though has been invaluable as I feel I've gotten a lot better at it since the format change.
If I weren't doing the tests, it definitely would feel much easier.
This is a complaint I keep seeing regarding the new layout, but it seems disingenuous to me, as every one who notes it also skips over the fact that the linear lessons now also have large yet optional testing components at the end of every section. If you choose to skip these, yes, you are going to see many easier questions, as the nodes on the track are lessons. The tests are almost exclusively long form written questions, not the easy format you describe.
For all of the gripes of the new linear path format, this choice in how you learn is never put forward.
Before the format change, this separation of easy vs hard didn't really exist, not even on L5 for the nodes that made them finish and go purple.
In my experience, this has allowed me to focus in the end of section tests, where I still regular fail to pass due to the 3 lives provided. This forced use of long form + no mistakes has really forced me to understand and parse my errors. For all the complaining that I've seen in the in-app comments for certain translations being incorrectly rejected, I've yet to come across one myself. Instead, it's always something else that I got just almost right, but still wrong. A bad gender, missing/wrong participle, pronoun in wrong place, typo etc. It's really hard to spot your own errors especially when it will only give you a single correct answer back when you got it wrong (despite many other valid translations are accepted and understand too). Being able to spot your own errors though has been invaluable as I feel I've gotten a lot better at it since the format change.
If I weren't doing the tests, it definitely would feel much easier.
> the fact that the linear lessons now also have large yet optional testing components at the end of every section.
If you're referring to the legendary lessons, then yes, I complete them as well and find them to be very useful. However, many people don't mention them because they cost a lot of gems for non-premium users (I use Duolingo Super), so they can't consistently complete these lessons. Sentence translation is an important part of language learning, yet it's kept behind a paywall. While I understand that the company needs to earn money, for non-paying users these lessons essentially don't exist.
> For all the complaining that I've seen in the in-app comments for certain translations being incorrectly rejected, I've yet to come across one myself. Unfortunately, this has become a serious problem for me. I didn't encounter such situations at the beginning of the course either, but the further I progress, the more frequently I come across them. It's to be expected, as the content is mostly created by crowdsourcing, and later lessons have fewer people studying them, so not as many people check them. Despite reporting dozens of such cases on Duolingo in the past year, I have yet to receive a single response.
If you're referring to the legendary lessons, then yes, I complete them as well and find them to be very useful. However, many people don't mention them because they cost a lot of gems for non-premium users (I use Duolingo Super), so they can't consistently complete these lessons. Sentence translation is an important part of language learning, yet it's kept behind a paywall. While I understand that the company needs to earn money, for non-paying users these lessons essentially don't exist.
> For all the complaining that I've seen in the in-app comments for certain translations being incorrectly rejected, I've yet to come across one myself. Unfortunately, this has become a serious problem for me. I didn't encounter such situations at the beginning of the course either, but the further I progress, the more frequently I come across them. It's to be expected, as the content is mostly created by crowdsourcing, and later lessons have fewer people studying them, so not as many people check them. Despite reporting dozens of such cases on Duolingo in the past year, I have yet to receive a single response.
Duolingo has 500+ employees, surely they can afford a 5 person Spanish team to actually write content for their most popular language?
I'm doing them non-paying. Its particularly costly when I make mistakes, but I've made it work by re-doing previous lessons for practice and gems. Between that and the monthly badge thing I've been able to motivate enough to keep my gem wallet stable.
I agree with your assessment that lessons have been watered down. I’ve been taking the Japanese course and it’s endless variations of “Rice and water please” continuing for multiple lessons, with nary a new word or two thrown in from time to time.
Hmm, I’ve been studying Japanese on Duolingo for a few weeks now, and that doesn’t match my experience at all -- plenty of rice and water, yes, but also fairly complex (though formulaic) sentences like “it’s 10:30 right now”, “how many windows are in the room?”, “she has three older sisters”, early in the second lesson block. The gamification is incredibly heavy-handed but I must admit it’s succeeding in getting me to use it a couple of times a day.
Edit to add: there’s a ton of repetition, if that’s what you mean, but that’s how you learn! Spaced repetition.
My main complaint is that it doesn’t seem to take complexity into account at all in the timed review sessions. You’ll get exactly the same amount of time for basic words like “dog”, “cat”, “red”, “blue” as for long sentences like “Professor Tanaka speaks English and Japanese”.
Edit to add: there’s a ton of repetition, if that’s what you mean, but that’s how you learn! Spaced repetition.
My main complaint is that it doesn’t seem to take complexity into account at all in the timed review sessions. You’ll get exactly the same amount of time for basic words like “dog”, “cat”, “red”, “blue” as for long sentences like “Professor Tanaka speaks English and Japanese”.
Interesting, what level are you currently at and what’s the Japanese proficiency you selected when signing up? I’m currently at Intro to Japanese, unit 3 and even though it’s titled “talk about countries and ask for directions” I still
mostly get “rice and water please” most of the time.
I’ve finished “Intro to Japanese” (8 units) and started “Japanese Foundations I” (unit 1/20), since joining at the start of the year. I didn’t know any Japanese beyond a few words in Romaji (types of sushi, etc).
It sounds like their app is different on each OS for historical reasons. On iOS at least, some very important content is oddly hidden away. The overview sections in each lesson block are well worth reading, and hiragana and katakana are on another tab so it’s easy to forget about them.
It sounds like their app is different on each OS for historical reasons. On iOS at least, some very important content is oddly hidden away. The overview sections in each lesson block are well worth reading, and hiragana and katakana are on another tab so it’s easy to forget about them.
Would you care to share the other resources that you use?
I hope it is allowed to share links here.
https://andlukyane.com/blog/studying-foreign-languages - I wrote a detailed blogpost about my experience of learning languages, including the resources that I used (not promoting anything).
This really looks like a case study of how to optimise to local maximums and how to focus on improving metrics without having to improve the product.
None of the included examples creates an actually better product for users or talks about addressing user needs or addressing user feedback.
As a developer of a consumer app, there is always the danger in spending all of your time working on levers to squeeze ongoing % increases in metrics.
It's a danger as I think the more time you do this, the less time you look at your product holistically to see how it can be improved more substantially to meet customer needs. This broader view can result in more substantial gains than growth hacking tweaks.
None of the included examples creates an actually better product for users or talks about addressing user needs or addressing user feedback.
As a developer of a consumer app, there is always the danger in spending all of your time working on levers to squeeze ongoing % increases in metrics.
It's a danger as I think the more time you do this, the less time you look at your product holistically to see how it can be improved more substantially to meet customer needs. This broader view can result in more substantial gains than growth hacking tweaks.
Funny that they decided to imitate Gardenscapes and other gamified mobile games that everyone hates. These games make money essentially by giving 0.01% of users an unhealthy addiction that causes the to spend thousands on the game.
Maybe they should try to imitate indie games.
I guess it's hard to do that when you already took lots of money from VCs or if you are a $3.5B public company.
Maybe they should try to imitate indie games.
I guess it's hard to do that when you already took lots of money from VCs or if you are a $3.5B public company.
In the current iteration of app it feels that one can get "gamified" and focus on virtual points instead of actual learning.
One could argue that gamifying makes you engaged longer, but
On a side note: the German course spectacularly fails to introduce articles (der/die/das) in quizzes. Also it feels that it fails at explaining declension / deklination as well. Im using duolingo to refresh my German (that I studied earlier) and it feels that the important part of the language could be pushed better. Especially in those quizes that the app seems to push on everyone to get points. Those quizzes (as much as I hate them) would be so much better if words would have articles. Now for some reason it shows pairs "car" - "auto", when it would be much better to have it "car" - "das auto" to learn the article.
Other posters really commented how the product seems to be less and less focused on learning and more and more on gamification. Still it is kind of a not bad way to refresh things that I learned at school, when say standing in a queue, but perhaps reading some books / articles with "simple German" and then real articles would be faster.
One could argue that gamifying makes you engaged longer, but
On a side note: the German course spectacularly fails to introduce articles (der/die/das) in quizzes. Also it feels that it fails at explaining declension / deklination as well. Im using duolingo to refresh my German (that I studied earlier) and it feels that the important part of the language could be pushed better. Especially in those quizes that the app seems to push on everyone to get points. Those quizzes (as much as I hate them) would be so much better if words would have articles. Now for some reason it shows pairs "car" - "auto", when it would be much better to have it "car" - "das auto" to learn the article.
Other posters really commented how the product seems to be less and less focused on learning and more and more on gamification. Still it is kind of a not bad way to refresh things that I learned at school, when say standing in a queue, but perhaps reading some books / articles with "simple German" and then real articles would be faster.
Many years ago, I wrote an article about Duolingo being a game first before being a language learning tool. The article became too popular until it reached their attention. I started getting threatening emails. Cease and desists. I never removed it.
Then users started telling me that it was true once, but there has been so many updates to the app that my article is no longer relevant. In fact, my article was now misleading. I had used Duolingo consecutively for over a year, so I gave it another shot. I could bot last a couple weeks.
Today, Duolingo uses all the mechanics of Candy Crush. Yes, they have improved their game mechanics to optimize for engagement and conversion. Learning a language with Duolingo is only incidental.
Then users started telling me that it was true once, but there has been so many updates to the app that my article is no longer relevant. In fact, my article was now misleading. I had used Duolingo consecutively for over a year, so I gave it another shot. I could bot last a couple weeks.
Today, Duolingo uses all the mechanics of Candy Crush. Yes, they have improved their game mechanics to optimize for engagement and conversion. Learning a language with Duolingo is only incidental.
> I started getting threatening emails. Cease and desists.
If this is true then it further confirms to me that all Luis von Ahn's philanthropic guff was a fraudulent facade and he's always been about the money.
And this prompted me to look up his profile on wikipedia and I see that he's recently signed up to a US imperialist push to win back control over Central American countries (which have recently been slipping the US neocolonial leash, particularly El Salvador). Which only increases my disdain for the man.
If this is true then it further confirms to me that all Luis von Ahn's philanthropic guff was a fraudulent facade and he's always been about the money.
And this prompted me to look up his profile on wikipedia and I see that he's recently signed up to a US imperialist push to win back control over Central American countries (which have recently been slipping the US neocolonial leash, particularly El Salvador). Which only increases my disdain for the man.
The missing info: Has Duolingo user growth increased roughly uniformly across languages, or did certain languages drive the growth? I could easily tell an alternative story about language learning becoming popular recently.
As a recently "acquired" paid user, I have little good to say about the kind of gamification that DL is using, and the only reason for my use of the app is actually trying to learn the basics of a language. As a game, it is unconvincing. The exercise selection mechanism looks reasonable but has some easily fixable lapses (ambiguous English words like "you", "moose" or "deer" when singular and plural both make sense). The gamification is cringe: mechanics mindlessly copied from successful games without understanding what makes them work and why. Character progression is mostly linear. The multiplayer features are... mainly comparing your XP with friends. Useless interrupts and load screens get annoying after the first 10 minutes. I would never play DL just for the sake of play.
The reminder emails? I don't need them, but I can imagine them being useful.
It seems that educational games are one of those fields of gold that are still around in computing, and there are still low-hanging fruit left to be picked, particularly as more and more grading can be done by AI. So I am not surprised that products with obvious flaws and general lack of game design sophistication can still be highly successful and useful. But one day, someone will do things right and DL will be forgotten.
Imagine a browser plugin that helps you read a text in a language you're trying to learn. You get points for correctly translating a sentence, proportional to the complexity of said sentence. You lose points for mistakes, and you can spend points for having the computer translate a word for you. Most of this should be pretty easy to implement, except for the part that would check a translation for correctness, which might need some AI that isn't yet in consumer land.
As a recently "acquired" paid user, I have little good to say about the kind of gamification that DL is using, and the only reason for my use of the app is actually trying to learn the basics of a language. As a game, it is unconvincing. The exercise selection mechanism looks reasonable but has some easily fixable lapses (ambiguous English words like "you", "moose" or "deer" when singular and plural both make sense). The gamification is cringe: mechanics mindlessly copied from successful games without understanding what makes them work and why. Character progression is mostly linear. The multiplayer features are... mainly comparing your XP with friends. Useless interrupts and load screens get annoying after the first 10 minutes. I would never play DL just for the sake of play.
The reminder emails? I don't need them, but I can imagine them being useful.
It seems that educational games are one of those fields of gold that are still around in computing, and there are still low-hanging fruit left to be picked, particularly as more and more grading can be done by AI. So I am not surprised that products with obvious flaws and general lack of game design sophistication can still be highly successful and useful. But one day, someone will do things right and DL will be forgotten.
Imagine a browser plugin that helps you read a text in a language you're trying to learn. You get points for correctly translating a sentence, proportional to the complexity of said sentence. You lose points for mistakes, and you can spend points for having the computer translate a word for you. Most of this should be pretty easy to implement, except for the part that would check a translation for correctness, which might need some AI that isn't yet in consumer land.
> a browser plugin
I think there is a language learning browser plugin (Toucan) whose USP is that it replaces words on a browser page with corresponding words in the target language.
Not affiliated. Saw ads for it on Twitter.
https://jointoucan.com/how-toucan-works
I think there is a language learning browser plugin (Toucan) whose USP is that it replaces words on a browser page with corresponding words in the target language.
Not affiliated. Saw ads for it on Twitter.
https://jointoucan.com/how-toucan-works
Interesting! N/A for Swedish so far, but this is an interesting technique that is much easier to implement than what I had in mind.
I have a question about a heretofore unremarked upon bit of the post:
It took our team a couple of months of work to add the counter. With the release of the update, I expectantly waited for an unmitigated success.
Armed with a short presentation I co-created with our chief designer, we were able to get just enough buy-in from the rest of the executive team to create a new team, the Gamification Team. The team consisted of an engineering manager, an engineer, a designer, an APM, and me.
After the results came out, we quickly fell into dissension. Some wanted to continue iterating on the idea, while others wanted to pivot. The team almost immediately (and dramatically) disbanded, and the idea was abandoned. It was pretty awful. The one silver lining of this failure was that I learned a lot about the company culture and about how to improve my personal leadership style.
> What in the great googly moogly? It takes months of work to add a progress bar?
Haha yeah, that stood out to me as well. Did they only have one dev working part time?
Haha yeah, that stood out to me as well. Did they only have one dev working part time?
Feeling invigorated as a startup in the language learning space.
Have you tried spending several months copying one tiny random attribute from an unpopular video game you and a handful of people play all day at work after the chief graphics designer helped you throw together a short powerpoint to get buy in from the executives to bestow upon you a team that don't want anything to do with you?
By the by, Duelingo has raised $183 million dollars over eight funding rounds. Most recent round in 2020.
Zonbokomu e yōkoso~~! ヽ(^ｰ^)人(^ｰ^)ノ
By the by, Duelingo has raised $183 million dollars over eight funding rounds. Most recent round in 2020.
Zonbokomu e yōkoso~~! ヽ(^ｰ^)人(^ｰ^)ノ
This is what you get with being growth-driven. They push gems and chests because that drives engagement. Duolingo was never meant to be the "best app for language learning" the same way Facebook's isn't to be the most optimal social platform. Those were only the goals - selling points - when they were unknown, until they reached wide adoption. After that, the ball can be dropped, and you can start to bend the original product in any way you see fit to match your metrics, the only restriction being that the user can still identify with it.
I really wonder if "software with a mission" can scale beyond non-profits, open source, few devoted maintainers and small niche markets.
I really wonder if "software with a mission" can scale beyond non-profits, open source, few devoted maintainers and small niche markets.
[deleted]
Its a usual for:
"Show me the incentives and I'll show you the outcomes."
Need for growth, need for fundraising => everything is skewed towards tweaking the % on conversions into paid despite sacrificing on end mission and goal that should be essentially driving customer happiness and success. But who cares these days?
Hyperoptimisation is here to stay...
"Show me the incentives and I'll show you the outcomes."
Need for growth, need for fundraising => everything is skewed towards tweaking the % on conversions into paid despite sacrificing on end mission and goal that should be essentially driving customer happiness and success. But who cares these days?
Hyperoptimisation is here to stay...
I used to spend a lot of time on Duolingo just to get to the top of Diamond league, until one day I realized that the Diamond league meant nothing to me and there was more effective way to learn a new language.
By the way, is it just me or spoken Japanese was so much easier than spoken Spanish? It was just so hard for me to understand what a Spanish speaker says even though I had no problem reading the same content. Yet somehow it was much easier to understand spoken Japanese.
By the way, is it just me or spoken Japanese was so much easier than spoken Spanish? It was just so hard for me to understand what a Spanish speaker says even though I had no problem reading the same content. Yet somehow it was much easier to understand spoken Japanese.
Japanese grammar is way more regular, "logic" and almost "computer-like". There are fewer and clearer rules and they are made very explicit by the usage of particles marking every part of speech.
The phonetics are quite simple too, not too many weird sounds.
The lexicon might be a bit hard once you try to express nuances, but spoken Japanese must be one of the easiest languages to get started with.
To get started with yes, but the grammar has plenty of irregularities at the “normal everyday speech” level
1. I like how their data growth charts conveniently ends in July 2022 around time when they introduced new Path UI, which lead me to uninstall the app after 1000+ days streak and I'm sure I was not alone.
2. They had hardly any growth until beginning of 2020, can you guess what happened in beginning of 2020 and who was locked at home and couldn't go outside? I was one of those people who started back then and left now with Path UI. Duolingo must be really unique, it's not like food/grocery delivery apps or streaming apps had even bigger growth during this period, surely must be some UI optimization. /s
2. They had hardly any growth until beginning of 2020, can you guess what happened in beginning of 2020 and who was locked at home and couldn't go outside? I was one of those people who started back then and left now with Path UI. Duolingo must be really unique, it's not like food/grocery delivery apps or streaming apps had even bigger growth during this period, surely must be some UI optimization. /s
I signed up for duolingo over 6 years ago and was a happy paying customer. I had a streak of 1810. But I quit.
I realized I was burnt out with it when I noticed I was just doing whichever lesson was the quickest to get my points to keep the streak going.
I just couldn't be bothered doing it. It was funless and joyless. I grew to resent it.
I realized I was burnt out with it when I noticed I was just doing whichever lesson was the quickest to get my points to keep the streak going.
I just couldn't be bothered doing it. It was funless and joyless. I grew to resent it.
This is a response to a number of complaints in neighbouring threads about the software being annoying. One way to deal with the problem is to fight it, which apparently I accidentally did. I just only noticed that I did so by comparing my user experience with y'alls.
I use the software in the Chromium Web browser on the desktop, mostly so I can type answers. This was originally motivated by the writing system being non-Latin. The software points out typos as mistake, but will nevertheless count the answer as correct if it is just one letter wrong, which I like. Since the answer optionally is a free-form text box instead of constrained by selecting from a set of words, the software also supports alternative syntactic expressions and word choices and sentence formations and count those as correct. I also have disabled animations in the settings menu.
This makes it quite distraction free to use. I just think about the answer, formulate it in my head, type it in, and keep hammering the enter key to advance to the next prompt, repeat a few times until I reach my daily goal. The only annoyance I notice is a screen once a day to upgrade to premium, which I can dismiss with a mouse click.
I would recommend to you to do away with the mobile phone and use the desktop Web browser instead and see whether this is more to your liking; if you are anything similar to me, it should be.
I use the software in the Chromium Web browser on the desktop, mostly so I can type answers. This was originally motivated by the writing system being non-Latin. The software points out typos as mistake, but will nevertheless count the answer as correct if it is just one letter wrong, which I like. Since the answer optionally is a free-form text box instead of constrained by selecting from a set of words, the software also supports alternative syntactic expressions and word choices and sentence formations and count those as correct. I also have disabled animations in the settings menu.
This makes it quite distraction free to use. I just think about the answer, formulate it in my head, type it in, and keep hammering the enter key to advance to the next prompt, repeat a few times until I reach my daily goal. The only annoyance I notice is a screen once a day to upgrade to premium, which I can dismiss with a mouse click.
I would recommend to you to do away with the mobile phone and use the desktop Web browser instead and see whether this is more to your liking; if you are anything similar to me, it should be.
i logged into duolingo again recently because i want to seriously start learning a new language. i've been a user for many years. i loved duolingo.
after seeing and immediately hating the new redesign, the massive amounts of complaints about the redesign on reddit that go back months and continue to this day, and the insulting "we are always listening to your feedback" message on one of their support pages, i decided i'm going to look for a paid alternative or just buy a couple books.
after seeing and immediately hating the new redesign, the massive amounts of complaints about the redesign on reddit that go back months and continue to this day, and the insulting "we are always listening to your feedback" message on one of their support pages, i decided i'm going to look for a paid alternative or just buy a couple books.
Interesting… i stopped using Duolingo just about 8 months ago because it felt like it was being designed to not teach me anything but keep me coming back day after day. Buy a workbook from amazon for $10 and you will learn a lot more and much faster.
They may have grown in users, but the experience is now really bad. Everything is a loot box with gems here and there, ads are too frequent and, the worse thing: their learning algorithms seem to have declined in effectiveness (at least for German).
Duolingo has as much connection with real-world language learning as Minecraft has with the real-world construction industry.
My partner is a linguist and practices languages on Duolingo.
She starts with it first thing in the morning and then before bed.
She is on a 1000+ day streak. Even during our vacations she makes sure she doesn’t break her streak, always trying go up the league.
It’s quite amazing how they’ve built that kind of stickiness into the product.
She starts with it first thing in the morning and then before bed.
She is on a 1000+ day streak. Even during our vacations she makes sure she doesn’t break her streak, always trying go up the league.
It’s quite amazing how they’ve built that kind of stickiness into the product.
I'm surprised a linguist would use Duolingo. Which languages does she use it for?
Not him, but I had friend who worked as translator and literally lived from writing texts in foreign language. She used duolingo for like 6 languages, sometimes changing them as she felt like. She used other apps too tho, mostly for memorizing words.
Someone should show these people Anki or maybe ClozeMaster. So many more effective ways to practice vocabulary than the Duolingo way.
They do know about both. Afaik, Anki looks bad has better looking alternatives that allow you to memorize they have been excited over. Not sure what, never cared. Specifically Anki is just flashcards. It is boring rote memorization and not even effective way of learning. I think that comparatively few people will do it as a hobby.
It is not that they don't know alternatives. It is that Duolingo has different purpose and they like it better.
It is not that they don't know alternatives. It is that Duolingo has different purpose and they like it better.
To learn Spanish and German. French for practise. For Japanese however she has a dedicated teacher.
Having spent many hundreds of hours in different Duolingo courses a few years back I can confidently day that I learned... Nothing. I speak three languages fluently and a few more at the basic level, so am not a language ignoramus - but Duolingo just doesn't teach anything.
Having been an early user, I can also say confidently that from the start Duolingo was just all about gamification and getting users 'hooked'. They had venture capital and needed to show growth numbers, so that was always the focus.
There are plenty of better ways to learn, but the downsides were usually that either you have to pay or you have to make an effort and handle your own learning path. Duolingo bet on being simple one-size-fits-all and is just a weird vocabulary practice that pretends to do grammar.
The basic question then is how much your lifetime is worth. If you now have to choose between bad repetition practice in Duolingo or e.g. an actual learning path like babbel I think the answer is easy. If you want free try Anki with a popular deck of sentences, not individual words.
If anyone is still using it I suggest at least to skip the app and use the web app instead (also on your phone), this allows you to avoid spending hours of your life seeing repetitive ads and animations, and gives some acces to basic grammar explanations that absolutely absurdly have never been available on the app. But best is really to just look for alternatives, streak be damned.
Having been an early user, I can also say confidently that from the start Duolingo was just all about gamification and getting users 'hooked'. They had venture capital and needed to show growth numbers, so that was always the focus.
There are plenty of better ways to learn, but the downsides were usually that either you have to pay or you have to make an effort and handle your own learning path. Duolingo bet on being simple one-size-fits-all and is just a weird vocabulary practice that pretends to do grammar.
The basic question then is how much your lifetime is worth. If you now have to choose between bad repetition practice in Duolingo or e.g. an actual learning path like babbel I think the answer is easy. If you want free try Anki with a popular deck of sentences, not individual words.
If anyone is still using it I suggest at least to skip the app and use the web app instead (also on your phone), this allows you to avoid spending hours of your life seeing repetitive ads and animations, and gives some acces to basic grammar explanations that absolutely absurdly have never been available on the app. But best is really to just look for alternatives, streak be damned.
I speak 3 languages fluently and always wondered if anyone really managed to learn anything via Duolingo?
It seems similar to learning code syntax and understanding but in practice not being able to communicate.
To me it doesn't seem like any of these mechanics would help to actually learn, just to increase retention and revenue.
I wish there were still companies who's NorthStar would be customer success and in this case proficiency instead of making people stuck to their screen longer. But I get it... investors.
It seems similar to learning code syntax and understanding but in practice not being able to communicate.
To me it doesn't seem like any of these mechanics would help to actually learn, just to increase retention and revenue.
I wish there were still companies who's NorthStar would be customer success and in this case proficiency instead of making people stuck to their screen longer. But I get it... investors.
I really have a love/hate relationship with Duolingo. I’ve been using it for supplementing my Japanese studies and at the more advanced levels it has become just so, so bad. There are no longer lessons - it’s just “remember these phrases”. Nothing about grammar. Nothing about words. It’s just rote memorization.
The only useful place for learning anything is from reading the forums for each exercise. Naturally Duolingo has since shut down the forums thus removing one of the only really useful outlets for asking questions and getting clarification on things.
Perhaps the worst thing of all though is the huge reliance on idioms. There are translations which are entirely idiomatic and have little do to with what’s actually on screen. I find this to be actively sabotaging to learning because you’re not actually learning what’s being said, you’re just being taught that “X means something like Y” even though none of the words or grammar really lines up.
I could go on and on about the low quality of the Japanese lessons. It doesn’t seem like other languages are quite this bad on Duolingo but it definitely makes me think twice about renewing my membership.
The only useful place for learning anything is from reading the forums for each exercise. Naturally Duolingo has since shut down the forums thus removing one of the only really useful outlets for asking questions and getting clarification on things.
Perhaps the worst thing of all though is the huge reliance on idioms. There are translations which are entirely idiomatic and have little do to with what’s actually on screen. I find this to be actively sabotaging to learning because you’re not actually learning what’s being said, you’re just being taught that “X means something like Y” even though none of the words or grammar really lines up.
I could go on and on about the low quality of the Japanese lessons. It doesn’t seem like other languages are quite this bad on Duolingo but it definitely makes me think twice about renewing my membership.
If you wish to learn grammar, especially more advanced grammar not grammar that is often not covered by many of the more popular "JP Learning Guides" online I highly recommend imabi.net
I have a very negative view of most language learning apps. Learning a language is more than vocabulary memorization and memorizing phrasebooks which is what most language apps devolve into. Consume JP media, use Anki to help build vocab/memorize kanji, and study grammar from a book dedicated to explaining grammar and not a "generalist" book that tries to dip its toes into everything.
I have a very negative view of most language learning apps. Learning a language is more than vocabulary memorization and memorizing phrasebooks which is what most language apps devolve into. Consume JP media, use Anki to help build vocab/memorize kanji, and study grammar from a book dedicated to explaining grammar and not a "generalist" book that tries to dip its toes into everything.
I've been using it for three years and Im still useless at Japanese. Using it IRL is when you start learning. Duolingo has just become a grind.
I have a 2000 days streak... I finished the Japanese course twice, all gold. Now they changed and I am at unit ~45/90. It will take me ~45months to finish it again.
And I am still not able to understand even a basic Japanese dialogue
I wonder if Rosetta Stone is better
And I am still not able to understand even a basic Japanese dialogue
I wonder if Rosetta Stone is better
As someone who has never used Duolingo but has heard it mentioned frequently over the last few months by people who do, 100% of their feedback has been as negative as possible regarding the new changes. Are these "new users" going to be as loyal and lucrative as the (apparently) great number of long-time users they have driven away? Time will tell, but I'm buying puts.
So I guess Duolingo sucks, what should I use instead?
Memrise is pretty good (or was, when I used it years ago). Much more serious, less gamified.
I found Babbel's lessons to be very helpful, they do a good job actually explaining the rules of things to you, but they have a smaller selection of languages to learn and I believe they only have a brief free trial; there's otherwise no free tier.
For Japanese: Wanikani (for Kanji) and Bunpro (for grammar); nhkeasier.com for reading material. Ideally also get an Anki deck that complements Wanikani for other vocabulary.
I found Babbel's lessons to be very helpful, they do a good job actually explaining the rules of things to you, but they have a smaller selection of languages to learn and I believe they only have a brief free trial; there's otherwise no free tier.
For Japanese: Wanikani (for Kanji) and Bunpro (for grammar); nhkeasier.com for reading material. Ideally also get an Anki deck that complements Wanikani for other vocabulary.
Different people learn different ways, so there's not one answer.
I think my main recommendations to consider over duolingo though are actual language textbooks, and then using any flashcard program for the information you need to memorize in the textbook (mainly vocab).
I think another strong contender is taking classes, either locally or online, and getting to the point where you can consume media in the target language as soon as possible, even if it's children's books
I think my main recommendations to consider over duolingo though are actual language textbooks, and then using any flashcard program for the information you need to memorize in the textbook (mainly vocab).
I think another strong contender is taking classes, either locally or online, and getting to the point where you can consume media in the target language as soon as possible, even if it's children's books
I never succeeded via actual language textbook or flashcard thing. It is just so boring, dry and you dont get to hear the language much. It works when it is done in school with bad grades to threaten you with.
I subscribed to lingq.com and am loving it. It is a content app as opposed to a traditional language learning app. They have a bunch of content for you to read in your target language (particularly their mini-stories) and you can import news articles or ebooks to read yourself. You can tap any word and get a translation and then practice words you don't know from a chapter or overall. The theory is that just lots of exposure is better than vocab drills and I tend to agree. Some guided learning (a bit of grammar here and there) is helpful but for the most part as long as you aren't a complete beginner content is where its at IMO.
1. Get a tutor for the basics, spend at least 1-2 hours learning every day. Have a good sleep. After the fundamentals, get on one of those platforms where you speak for 30 minutes in your mother tongue with someone else and vice versa to practice.
2. Move to a foreign country (this is how I learned 2 languages, without knowing how - just pure daily exposure).
2. Move to a foreign country (this is how I learned 2 languages, without knowing how - just pure daily exposure).
It doesn't suck per say... it comes down to the course and your own interest in learning a language. To me Duolingo worked well as an entry barrier for getting started, the app interface is polished and the gamification aspects makes it enjoyable and sometimes pushes you do to a bit more than you'd otherwise have done.
I've been doing the Japanese course for 2 years continuously, during the first year I only used Duolingo but as I progressed and became better at understanding the basics, I sought other apps for the things that Duolingo lacked. nowadays I use 'renshuu' as well for getting a deeper understanding of some areas, and 'kanjigarden' to learn all the various kanji that one can bump into.
Last but not least, I also use Takoboto as a dictionary to regularly look up stuff that's not well explained.
I've been doing the Japanese course for 2 years continuously, during the first year I only used Duolingo but as I progressed and became better at understanding the basics, I sought other apps for the things that Duolingo lacked. nowadays I use 'renshuu' as well for getting a deeper understanding of some areas, and 'kanjigarden' to learn all the various kanji that one can bump into.
Last but not least, I also use Takoboto as a dictionary to regularly look up stuff that's not well explained.
Refold method, probably. The decks are pay-what-you-want. It was developed by language learning junkies: they stole the main, widely-accepted strategies for learning a new language as quickly as possible from language learning forums, then formalized it and kinda productized the thing.
The gist is that the past decade or two they figured out that you learn a language fastest by focusing 100% on comprehension for your first 6 months or so, and only starting to read and write after your comprehension crosses a certain threshold. You basically race up to the point where you can understand ~70% of a TV show, then from there, learning to read and write is easy.
The gist is that the past decade or two they figured out that you learn a language fastest by focusing 100% on comprehension for your first 6 months or so, and only starting to read and write after your comprehension crosses a certain threshold. You basically race up to the point where you can understand ~70% of a TV show, then from there, learning to read and write is easy.
I don't think it sucks, it's just over used in my opinion. Once a person completes the course, they should challenge themselves more, like trying interlinear reading.
Use Duolingo and combine it with other methods as you feel like. Eventually you will come across one you actually like. Duolingo is good for keeping you in and for slowly teaching you basics.
Once you are on basic level, start watching netfix shows in your target language with subtitles. Or youtube videos in that language.
Once you are on basic level, start watching netfix shows in your target language with subtitles. Or youtube videos in that language.
Anki. You'll learn so much quicker
Sorry, which Anki is that? There’s a few in the App Store and I could use a decent language studying app.
https://apps.ankiweb.net/
There should be a link there to the official app.
There should be a link there to the official app.
I have a question to the experienced PMs out there.
If Lenny now time slipped back to the early discussions when they were rolling out the counter and the referral program, would he then vehemently oppose the ideas, citing all that he's learned? "Duolingo isn't like a match-3 game" "Language learners aren't referring discounted rides"
Maybe he would? Maybe he should, because he's learned these lessons. But was younger Lenny's job to be the whippersnapper who says with conviction "you don't know if you don't try, let's give it a shot!"
And so in a sense you must have these two types of people, and once you've been through the gauntlet, you either make it, and have been right all along, or you become wise, and your job is now to be the naysayer.
Or, if you're an experienced PM, are you instead thinking, this isn't perfect hindsight, but simply a largely avoidable detour before he arrived at the metrics that mattered? Maybe a critique of the actual journey is even more educational.
If Lenny now time slipped back to the early discussions when they were rolling out the counter and the referral program, would he then vehemently oppose the ideas, citing all that he's learned? "Duolingo isn't like a match-3 game" "Language learners aren't referring discounted rides"
Maybe he would? Maybe he should, because he's learned these lessons. But was younger Lenny's job to be the whippersnapper who says with conviction "you don't know if you don't try, let's give it a shot!"
And so in a sense you must have these two types of people, and once you've been through the gauntlet, you either make it, and have been right all along, or you become wise, and your job is now to be the naysayer.
Or, if you're an experienced PM, are you instead thinking, this isn't perfect hindsight, but simply a largely avoidable detour before he arrived at the metrics that mattered? Maybe a critique of the actual journey is even more educational.
In my opinion and experience it's better to be the younger version who runs lots of experiments. While the older version may feel more wise, and may have taken some lessons from the past that helps him be aware of pitfalls in the future, there's always the danger of hindsight bias. The older version has ideas about why referrals didn't work, or the counter didn't work, but they might not be right (and I suspect they're not exactly right as Duolingo still contains different versions of affiliate referrals and counters).
A better strategy is to think about it in terms of tradeoffs - if I build an affiliate program, what does that mean I won't build? I got the sense from the article that they explored one growth idea at a time, as opposed to evaluating a group of options from the beginning. All things being equal it's probably best to spend a bit of time thinking about several opportunities before going off and building the first one. Previous product experience won't guarantee you can call what will work for the future, but it can help you weight options vs one another more effectively. You're much more likely to have a nuanced view of what's possible or what might go wrong.
A better strategy is to think about it in terms of tradeoffs - if I build an affiliate program, what does that mean I won't build? I got the sense from the article that they explored one growth idea at a time, as opposed to evaluating a group of options from the beginning. All things being equal it's probably best to spend a bit of time thinking about several opportunities before going off and building the first one. Previous product experience won't guarantee you can call what will work for the future, but it can help you weight options vs one another more effectively. You're much more likely to have a nuanced view of what's possible or what might go wrong.
Having studied:
- computer science & business (bachelor)
- psychology (bachelor)
- game psychology (master)
- computer science (master)
It took 9 years :)
I feel I could have really helped on projects like this.
The issue is: I haven’t found a job that would tackle problems like this. Professionally, I am a software engineer. Does anyone has some tips on how to find one?
For example, I wonder if they know about self-determination theory. That theory is a good one when it comes to reasoning about intrinsic motivation (such as the “relatedness” dimension which says you need to feel “ Will to interact with, be connected to, and experience caring for others.”)
I really suck at matching my complete background and finding a good job for it. But it seems they’re out there and they are done by people who generally have less of an overarching view from the academic side.
@downvoters: I want to help solve problems like this (ed-tech companies reaching more users through skills that seem very useful for them). I so far had 0 chances in my life to do it because hiring in software engineering is a mess. I even gave some relevant thoughts about how they could’ve reasoned on a more first principles-based approach with SDT. Please, give me a break. I could use one. One shot is all I need. As far as I see it, my comment seems to be relevant to the topic. Feel free to give feedback.
And I don’t mind about the points. I mind that the sentiment is: what you studied for 9 years, we won’t give you that chance as we deem it irrelevant to this topic. This is the same HN community that did help people find the right jobs for people and make the world a better place. This downvote hurts. I didn’t breach site guidelines either (other than commenting on downvoting itself)
- computer science & business (bachelor)
- psychology (bachelor)
- game psychology (master)
- computer science (master)
It took 9 years :)
I feel I could have really helped on projects like this.
The issue is: I haven’t found a job that would tackle problems like this. Professionally, I am a software engineer. Does anyone has some tips on how to find one?
For example, I wonder if they know about self-determination theory. That theory is a good one when it comes to reasoning about intrinsic motivation (such as the “relatedness” dimension which says you need to feel “ Will to interact with, be connected to, and experience caring for others.”)
I really suck at matching my complete background and finding a good job for it. But it seems they’re out there and they are done by people who generally have less of an overarching view from the academic side.
@downvoters: I want to help solve problems like this (ed-tech companies reaching more users through skills that seem very useful for them). I so far had 0 chances in my life to do it because hiring in software engineering is a mess. I even gave some relevant thoughts about how they could’ve reasoned on a more first principles-based approach with SDT. Please, give me a break. I could use one. One shot is all I need. As far as I see it, my comment seems to be relevant to the topic. Feel free to give feedback.
And I don’t mind about the points. I mind that the sentiment is: what you studied for 9 years, we won’t give you that chance as we deem it irrelevant to this topic. This is the same HN community that did help people find the right jobs for people and make the world a better place. This downvote hurts. I didn’t breach site guidelines either (other than commenting on downvoting itself)
I have Psych + CS from undergrad w/ focus on game dev, then I got a masters in HCI from CMU. Have worked at companies, startups, and agencies doing both design and front-end dev.
Here are some of my takes: - build up a design portfolio that shows off your design thinking. You don't need a Masters in HCI, but you need 1-3 things that shows you think about these problems. Show that you care about this field, even if your thinking is flawed, it really helps if you speak the language, and show that you're adding fresh takes.
- if you want to do UX eng, then you have to build a few prototypes — doesn't have to be full-blown CRUD apps, but do something in the field you care about. If it's educational games, you can write about what you think should be an experience ramp for a language or other game, and then build what that looks like. You can even make it work as a web app prototype for bonus points if you're able to do it.
- make friends in the companies and sectors you love. If it's educational games, find those people on twitter, linkedin, socials, and hang out. Find those people in your city, if you're able to. Talk shop with them, and build rapport to get in the door
- some people like to re-skin and redesign other apps; I usually don't like that tactic, but apparently it does work. E.g. build a re-skinned prototype of Spotify w/ new functionality using their API. That shows you've thought about their app, users, product / PMF, etc. But do this from design and first principles thinking, don't just go around making things "prettier" — that might not impress those you want to hire you.
Hope that helps!
Here are some of my takes: - build up a design portfolio that shows off your design thinking. You don't need a Masters in HCI, but you need 1-3 things that shows you think about these problems. Show that you care about this field, even if your thinking is flawed, it really helps if you speak the language, and show that you're adding fresh takes.
- if you want to do UX eng, then you have to build a few prototypes — doesn't have to be full-blown CRUD apps, but do something in the field you care about. If it's educational games, you can write about what you think should be an experience ramp for a language or other game, and then build what that looks like. You can even make it work as a web app prototype for bonus points if you're able to do it.
- make friends in the companies and sectors you love. If it's educational games, find those people on twitter, linkedin, socials, and hang out. Find those people in your city, if you're able to. Talk shop with them, and build rapport to get in the door
- some people like to re-skin and redesign other apps; I usually don't like that tactic, but apparently it does work. E.g. build a re-skinned prototype of Spotify w/ new functionality using their API. That shows you've thought about their app, users, product / PMF, etc. But do this from design and first principles thinking, don't just go around making things "prettier" — that might not impress those you want to hire you.
Hope that helps!
See it as an application of your skills: how can you use self-determination theory to convince an executive to hire you for that role? If you’ve mastered all those subjects, it should be easy.
> If you’ve mastered all those subjects, it should be easy.
Sometimes you can have correct knowledge of how to succeed at something without being able to personally implement that knowledge.
It's pretty common, actually.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdhEIy-1CG8
Sometimes you can have correct knowledge of how to succeed at something without being able to personally implement that knowledge.
It's pretty common, actually.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdhEIy-1CG8
If you're not able to personally implement it then you're not qualified for the position, so the parent comment's point still stands
Damasio (on phone, might be spelled wrong) has a hypothesis based on this in neuroscience. I might not say that fully accurately, but knowledge recitation and application: different parts of the brain
I also see myself as a software engineer first but with a keen interest on these topics. I found a good place calling myself UX Engineer; basically frontend engineering with close ties to design and product teams.
Maybe get more into HCI research? It's basically computer science + psychology. I actually used self-determination theory for a research project back when I was doing my CS master: https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3274329
HCI research also extends nicely into UX research. You could look for UX Researcher roles, but that'd be non-engineering. That's why I like "UX Engineer" as a title for people like us.
Maybe get more into HCI research? It's basically computer science + psychology. I actually used self-determination theory for a research project back when I was doing my CS master: https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3274329
HCI research also extends nicely into UX research. You could look for UX Researcher roles, but that'd be non-engineering. That's why I like "UX Engineer" as a title for people like us.
That works as a title yea. And then I would just apply for frontend software positions?
I don’t want to be in academia. I don’t trust the academic system, their moral integrity has been broken by the publication crisis and related crises
I don’t want to be in academia. I don’t trust the academic system, their moral integrity has been broken by the publication crisis and related crises
I think the problem is that most of these projects would turn out to be adtech, but if you like that stuff then have at it.
I agree but duolingo is education. I’ve always been passionate about it (courtesy of being in the system for too long, thank you Dutch government! :D)
Duolingo is a marketing company. It acquires you, then you pay them monthly while it tries to retain you. This article is demonstrating the gamification techniques they used to achieve that.
If you want to do education, become a teacher.
If you want to do education, become a teacher.
Edtech is Adtech so ... yeah.
Aren't they downvoting you because your comment doesn't have anything to do with Duolingo?
But it has everything to do with gamification. They went for the standard stuff in my opinion: leaderboards. Self-determination theory helps you to go beyond that, for example. I stated that in my initial comment.
Moreover, I'm a fit at solving this problem and never have been able to. I'm literally using 10 to 20% of my skills and here I see a blog post that highlights 80% of my background. I think that is relevant, albeit tangentially since I'm probably not the only one.
Some specific thoughts on leaderboards and points that come to mind (just free flowing here):
We've had countless of lectures on how to do more than just leaderboards and I'm disappointed that Duolingo mostly went the leaderboard route. I've thought countless of times "what's the value of a point?" And came to the conclusion it's about social comparison. This is why competition works so well. For example, HN karma points are a vague proxy for how much the HN community values your comments (more precisely, but not precisely enough ;-) It values your combination of: comment_frequency * inherent_comment_upvote, where an inherent_comment_upvote is a proxy for inherent_comment_value_according_to_site_guidelines_and_human_biases). People care about that, which is why some HN'ers like to score for points or why feedback on downvotes is asked. In this particular case, I ask that as well precisely because of the fundamental mechanism behind it: I feel devalued while I think I'm pointing out something interesting. So there's a natural inclination to ask why. It's not about the points, it's about the message behind it: "your comment is irrelevant and distracting". Anyway, that's a small view on why I think why karma points on HN have a particular motivating effect, which is also relevant since it's a gamification mechanic (which is, in part, what the post is about).
Moreover, I'm a fit at solving this problem and never have been able to. I'm literally using 10 to 20% of my skills and here I see a blog post that highlights 80% of my background. I think that is relevant, albeit tangentially since I'm probably not the only one.
Some specific thoughts on leaderboards and points that come to mind (just free flowing here):
We've had countless of lectures on how to do more than just leaderboards and I'm disappointed that Duolingo mostly went the leaderboard route. I've thought countless of times "what's the value of a point?" And came to the conclusion it's about social comparison. This is why competition works so well. For example, HN karma points are a vague proxy for how much the HN community values your comments (more precisely, but not precisely enough ;-) It values your combination of: comment_frequency * inherent_comment_upvote, where an inherent_comment_upvote is a proxy for inherent_comment_value_according_to_site_guidelines_and_human_biases). People care about that, which is why some HN'ers like to score for points or why feedback on downvotes is asked. In this particular case, I ask that as well precisely because of the fundamental mechanism behind it: I feel devalued while I think I'm pointing out something interesting. So there's a natural inclination to ask why. It's not about the points, it's about the message behind it: "your comment is irrelevant and distracting". Anyway, that's a small view on why I think why karma points on HN have a particular motivating effect, which is also relevant since it's a gamification mechanic (which is, in part, what the post is about).
Alright, I’m interested.
Any good reads to recommend on self determination theory?
Any good reads to recommend on self determination theory?
Not really, we got a couple of 2 hour lectures on it. But good point: I should seek it out. Feel free to email me, if you want to be pinged
If you want to learn a language, Duolingo and similar apps are not the way to do it. I used to use an app (that I can't recall the name of anymore) which matched you with people you could talk to in the target language over voice or video, and in return, you could teach them another language you knew, usually English. I also attended local language learning communities where again you speak only in the target language. I remember going to one online for Latin as well which made it feel like a living rather than dead language. It worked very well.
I do like how Duolingo has a lot more engagement however, it's harder to do so with these language learning communities which can sometimes fizzle out, so maybe an app in the middle could work well, perhaps even a ChatGPT with voice input and output for learning your target language. I'll likely be adding more gamification features to my apps as well.
I do like how Duolingo has a lot more engagement however, it's harder to do so with these language learning communities which can sometimes fizzle out, so maybe an app in the middle could work well, perhaps even a ChatGPT with voice input and output for learning your target language. I'll likely be adding more gamification features to my apps as well.
Was that app Livemocha?
I have serious doubts that gameification is useful for anything other than vocabulary.
And if you want to focus on bulk vocab acquisition, it’s guarenteed to be faster to use a proper SRS flashcard tool
Precisely. I use quizlet for that, which is very similar, except it doesn't market itself as 'teaching you the language'. It's for memorizing stuff, vocabulary in particular. And you get much more control on which sets to work on and can create your own.
The leaderboards have no good rewards, the best strategy (if you don't want to spend hours every day to stay at the top of the top league) seems to be to let your rank slip into the lowest league and then to win each week until you get back to the highest league, because there is no reward for staying in the middle of a high-ish league. Also the new daily quests seem to scale requirements with your engagement, but not scale the rewards.
So I have checked out of the unrewarding hamsterwheel and just do one or two lessons in the evening.
It is, however, one of the few places that is showing me ads so I guess it's working anyway.
So I have checked out of the unrewarding hamsterwheel and just do one or two lessons in the evening.
It is, however, one of the few places that is showing me ads so I guess it's working anyway.
I’m so glad I don’t have to gamify my label design and print app. I mean, label printers are already an exercise in absolute frustration, anyways. What’s that video game genre? Permadeath? Might be on to something …
Also they have the Duolingo Owl doing shenanigans on the the Duolingo TikTok account.
Dunno if the owl helps user growth, but probably at least a bit.
Dunno if the owl helps user growth, but probably at least a bit.
So many people here always report being underwhelmed by Duolingo whenever it comes up. It makes me wonder who are all of these people using it and paying their bills. There seems to be a pretty stark divide between the HN crowd and all the people contributing to Duolingo's revenue numbers.
My wife is one of them, on a family plan with her brother. She repeatedly complains about how bad DL is getting, but keeps up her streak because she's got 4+ years and so does her brother.
She's got other language apps she actually learns from, but feels like Duolingo is basically worthless and only keeps it up because she can't bear to lose the streak.
She's got other language apps she actually learns from, but feels like Duolingo is basically worthless and only keeps it up because she can't bear to lose the streak.
It’s like any other mobile game. People spend a few bucks here and there on it, and they make up for it in volume.
I don't like gamification. but for me this works. It allows me to use it regularly every day for the last 3 4 months. It may not be very effective in terms of learning, but it definitely has an effect in terms of regular study.
A pandemic forcing people inside which encouraged people to try new hobbies like language learning, coupled with the app going public…plays a big part.
Props to Duolingo, I love supporting Pittsburgh success stories.
Props to Duolingo, I love supporting Pittsburgh success stories.
Anyone have websites or apps to recommend to replace Duolingo?
Seriously, it depends on what you're trying to do. You're not going to learn a language using memorization only, and you're not going to learn a language through an app only.
I use quizlet for learning vocabulary, because that needs to be done by sheer memorization. For everything else, I take a course. On Italki you can find people who teach online.
I use quizlet for learning vocabulary, because that needs to be done by sheer memorization. For everything else, I take a course. On Italki you can find people who teach online.
I switched from Duolingo to Babbel a year ago and am a lot happer with that. Unlike Duo, there's no free tier though
Try Pimsleur
Memrise.
For Mandarin, I found Busuu to be much better than Duolingo; better app experience, social features and actually better learning program.
Since LLMs are so good at language, I'm wondering why we haven't yet seen any (competing) language tutoring AI.
Yay, nag push notifications are the answer.
How long ago was this project? I feel like full info was gamified since forever