Citymapper Joins Via(content.citymapper.com)
content.citymapper.com
Citymapper Joins Via
https://content.citymapper.com/news/2582/citymapper-joins-via
88 comments
This is too bad because Citymapper is a great app and Google Maps is still very far from providing the same quality as specialized apps for public transit routing.
The one advantage these specialised apps can have is their hyper-specific transit suggestions, which are custom per city. For example, in London Citymapper will suggest to wait and board front/mid/back of the platform to align yourself better with exits at your destination.
Apple and Google tend to be slower to add suggestions like this because they scale poorly to other cities. But it's only a matter of time before they add them.
Apple and Google tend to be slower to add suggestions like this because they scale poorly to other cities. But it's only a matter of time before they add them.
> For example, in London Citymapper will suggest to wait and board front/mid/back
This never seems as useful as it should be because I'm missing a reliable way to know which direction a London Underground train will approach from?
There is a red stop light, but many stations have these at both ends of the platform. Is there some signage or other piece of infrastructure that gives it away?
This never seems as useful as it should be because I'm missing a reliable way to know which direction a London Underground train will approach from?
There is a red stop light, but many stations have these at both ends of the platform. Is there some signage or other piece of infrastructure that gives it away?
When I was in Tokyo last week google maps had carriage suggestions
Google also shows prices there and not in London.
Google has a policy of requiring transit agencies to provide APIs and use standard formats, while Citymapper tries to make each city feel like its own app with lots of effort put in.
Google has a policy of requiring transit agencies to provide APIs and use standard formats, while Citymapper tries to make each city feel like its own app with lots of effort put in.
There's also a bit of jank where the model represents country-specific stuff. For example a handful of people floated the idea of women-only sections in busses in the UK, so Google categorized it as a country where users might want to know women-only-status. Now every single public transit route in the UK has a pill that says "No Women's Only Section".
Issues with Google (I'm not familiar with Apple maps) maps are the cost and inflexibility. It can't do routing for non standard vehicles taking into account height limits, same side routing, hazmat etc
> If you can identify a niche
It is sad: not everything should be concentrated in Apple's and Google's services. We have to support the other options.
I've always loved Citymapper, it made using public transport when living in a new city a breeze. It's really sad they don't support my current city, I'd be willing to put in free work to make it happen but I've never seen any way of helping out.
Just chiming in with another option. May have been cause they are Montreal based, but back when I still lived there and regularly used public transport, Transit[1] was my favorite.
[1] https://transitapp.com/
[1] https://transitapp.com/
Transit's UI is superior to any other comparable app, but I find CityMapper's routes superior (at least in NYC).
I've also had issues with Transit surfacing incorrect bus routes based on cancelled buses (but scheduled) which CityMapper somehow could account for. Transit knows the next scheduled bus two minutes away isn't "live" (icons are different) but still surfaces it as a primary suggestion, while Citymapper wouldn't.
I've also had issues with Transit surfacing incorrect bus routes based on cancelled buses (but scheduled) which CityMapper somehow could account for. Transit knows the next scheduled bus two minutes away isn't "live" (icons are different) but still surfaces it as a primary suggestion, while Citymapper wouldn't.
Citymapper lets me navigate NYC like a local even if I only visit a couple times a year. It gives transit options taking into account real-time location and time to navigate not just to the subway station but through it. It gives me the street corner I should enter and the the underground exit I should use at the end of my ride. I love it and hope it continues to be great.
+1 for transit. (I’m also predictably from Montréal haha)
The crowning feature of Transit is the GO trips that let you share you location while on a bus with others. For bus arrival accuracy there’s nothing better. It’s probably saved me a flight or two before, by just making sure I get the 747 bus to the airport.
The crowning feature of Transit is the GO trips that let you share you location while on a bus with others. For bus arrival accuracy there’s nothing better. It’s probably saved me a flight or two before, by just making sure I get the 747 bus to the airport.
i use transit in LA (where it's the default app for metro) and it has a huge glaring UX failure in that the departure times list at the bottom of the line details screen takes up at least a 1/3 of the screen, and when you want to see more of the map and try to push the list down, it closes the details screen. it's so frustrating, because i end up doing this 2-3 times per use, needlessly tapping back and forth. there's already a close button available so scroll to bottom to dismiss is wholly unnecessary. the departure times list wastes a ton of precious screen real estate as well - it could simply be a comma-delimited list on one line that could scroll sideways, and thus obviating the need for 1/3 of the screen for mostly whitespace.
i do like that the departure times are (slightly) more accurate because of the crowd-sourcing. however, the underlying data from metro is a mess, so they end up looking bad anyway because trains and buses still show up (or don't) unexpectedly due to metro's unreliable data.
i do like that the departure times are (slightly) more accurate because of the crowd-sourcing. however, the underlying data from metro is a mess, so they end up looking bad anyway because trains and buses still show up (or don't) unexpectedly due to metro's unreliable data.
I like Transit when it works, but (as of a year ago) it routinely crashed. And transit directions are uniquely hard to restart midway, as it's hard for the app to detect what bus you're on without knowing when you got on.
I like Transit for their quick at a glance public transit arrival times in NYC, but generally prefer Citymapper's overall step-by-step directions and multi-modal transit options. That being said Citymapper did put a bunch of things behind a paywall in the last few years that have made it less useful outside of pure public-transit directions.
I think Transit works great for status updates for buses or trains you're already familiar with. If I'm travelling an unfamiliar route, it's always Citymapper. Plus the fact that Citymapper suggests which part of the train to board for proximity to the nearest exit? Amazing.
So Via have acquired Citymapper, or am I misreading this?
They've dressed up the announcement so much that you can't even understand what they're announcing.
They've dressed up the announcement so much that you can't even understand what they're announcing.
The news release from the Via side is a bit more informative.
(More text, less pictures...)
https://ridewithvia.com/news/via-acquires-citymapper-to-expa...
(Edit: When I say informative... it's unfortunately still dripping in marketing-speak fluff).
(More text, less pictures...)
https://ridewithvia.com/news/via-acquires-citymapper-to-expa...
(Edit: When I say informative... it's unfortunately still dripping in marketing-speak fluff).
Well that's Citymapper for you, cocky and cutesy even as they're being dragged away to the abbatoir.
I've used Citymapper for maybe 5 years, and while I remain a fan, Transit[0] just seems like a much better product. They support more cities, their user tracking is (generally) more accurate, and (at least in my opinion) their app just better designed & thought out for transit use.
[0]: https://transitapp.com/
[0]: https://transitapp.com/
More cities in which part of the world? Citymapper does support my city. Transit does not.
Transit is also really, really good if you know where you’re headed but just need to check train/bus arrival times. The app opens straight to live arrival times of all the lines nearest to you. So handy.
Giving this a go purely because the UI is beautiful and it seems to suggest using my bike in combination with public transport which is glorious.
I’m in the same boat, the UX/UI is beautiful
Hi,
Marius here - VP Engineering for Citymapper (powered by Via)
We are excited about the opportunities this creates for the product and team. We are looking forward to join an excellent tech company. Happy to answer any questions.
And we are hiring as we are expanding our product and team. For openings to work on the Citymapper app and tech please visit https://citymapper.com/jobs or write to [email protected]
Marius here - VP Engineering for Citymapper (powered by Via)
We are excited about the opportunities this creates for the product and team. We are looking forward to join an excellent tech company. Happy to answer any questions.
And we are hiring as we are expanding our product and team. For openings to work on the Citymapper app and tech please visit https://citymapper.com/jobs or write to [email protected]
Hi, your app depends on Google. I can't use it on LineageOS without installing Google services. Isn't Google your top competitor ? Isn't it a problem, that to use your app you need to use an OS that comes with an uninstallable version of Google Maps ?
Thank you Marius and team. I'm a long time daily user, and I just love what you've built
Can I expect a somewhat lesser focus on European cities in 1 to 2 years while VIA expands its capabilities on Northern America?
There is actually a great coverage area overlap between VIA and Citymapper - esp. in North America and Europe. I wouldn't expect Europe not not be a focus given the huge transit market size.
Congrats Marius, and everyone else at CM!
Congrats to the team!
Could you give an idea about the tech stack powering citymapper?
Could you give an idea about the tech stack powering citymapper?
Thanks - and good question.
We run a large deployment of services to support millions of daily active users across the 450+ cities that the Citymapper app operates in - all on AWS EKS. Most of the code of the backend services is written in Python and we have CPP and some Go services or modules as we deal with a lot of CPU and memory intensive workloads (eg routing) as well as high I/O workloads (we are using 1000s of different data sources)
The apps and SDK are written in Kotlin / Swift / React
We run a large deployment of services to support millions of daily active users across the 450+ cities that the Citymapper app operates in - all on AWS EKS. Most of the code of the backend services is written in Python and we have CPP and some Go services or modules as we deal with a lot of CPU and memory intensive workloads (eg routing) as well as high I/O workloads (we are using 1000s of different data sources)
The apps and SDK are written in Kotlin / Swift / React
congrats to you and your team Marius. Love your product. I did reach out to you a while ago with my resume and I didn't hear anything back yet
I know a few people who worked at Citymapper in senior roles, and the general consensus has always been that there was ultimately no feasible way to monetise.
As others have pointed out, their core value of routing/planning/exploiting Open Data became heavily commoditised by Apple, Google, and the transport operators themselves (e.g. TfL in London). Their belated attempts to monetise payments, data, even running transport itself, haven't been successful: it's a crowded, aggressive market filled with long-time incumbents who have established relationships and deep strategic control points.
As a place to work / founder values... ..well, the reviews on Glassdoor speak for themselves. I can't say I'm grieving for its loss.
As others have pointed out, their core value of routing/planning/exploiting Open Data became heavily commoditised by Apple, Google, and the transport operators themselves (e.g. TfL in London). Their belated attempts to monetise payments, data, even running transport itself, haven't been successful: it's a crowded, aggressive market filled with long-time incumbents who have established relationships and deep strategic control points.
As a place to work / founder values... ..well, the reviews on Glassdoor speak for themselves. I can't say I'm grieving for its loss.
Same...and same stories about the founder. Not good.
For people who use either of these apps, what advantages do they offer over google maps transit directions? I live in Chicago and only use google maps but I would love to use something else that is more accurate with bus timings.
I use Citymapper all the time for the NYC subway, and I recommend it to everyone I meet.
1. Most accurate arrival times (this matters _a lot_ for transfers)
2. If your trip has transfers, it takes into account how long it takes to walk between platforms (some apps assume its instant, but if it's a large station it can take the better part of 10 minutes to get to another train)
3. Tells you which part of the train (forward, middle, back) to sit in so you're closest to the exit when you get off
4. Service changes are accurate and automatically included in the routing
5. Powerful routing options -- if it's raining, you can prioritize routes with less walking, or if you have a Citibike membership you can create routes that combine biking + transit, etc.
It's honestly good enough that I pay $20/year for it. Every once in a while I give Apple Maps or Transit a shot, but they're just not on the same level.
1. Most accurate arrival times (this matters _a lot_ for transfers)
2. If your trip has transfers, it takes into account how long it takes to walk between platforms (some apps assume its instant, but if it's a large station it can take the better part of 10 minutes to get to another train)
3. Tells you which part of the train (forward, middle, back) to sit in so you're closest to the exit when you get off
4. Service changes are accurate and automatically included in the routing
5. Powerful routing options -- if it's raining, you can prioritize routes with less walking, or if you have a Citibike membership you can create routes that combine biking + transit, etc.
It's honestly good enough that I pay $20/year for it. Every once in a while I give Apple Maps or Transit a shot, but they're just not on the same level.
> 4. Service changes are accurate and automatically included in the routing
I'm not sure if this is the case with Citymapper. Transit does offer alternatives, but I don't think I've ever encountered this with Citymapper, i.e., you're committed to a particular route once you start. With Transit, I often get a suggestion (while on the train) that I might not make it in time for my connection with X train, and the next Y train leaves in Z minutes. I feel with Citymapper I only get something like this if alternate trains were part of the initial route segment, eg, N/R/Q trains. I also feel Citymapper does a much worse job updating ETAs or arrival times for alternative trains than Transit.
I'm not sure if this is the case with Citymapper. Transit does offer alternatives, but I don't think I've ever encountered this with Citymapper, i.e., you're committed to a particular route once you start. With Transit, I often get a suggestion (while on the train) that I might not make it in time for my connection with X train, and the next Y train leaves in Z minutes. I feel with Citymapper I only get something like this if alternate trains were part of the initial route segment, eg, N/R/Q trains. I also feel Citymapper does a much worse job updating ETAs or arrival times for alternative trains than Transit.
I agree, that's my biggest frustration with Citymapper. I wasn't aware Transit handled that better, I might have to give it another shot. But by "service changes," I was actually referring to trains being re-routed by the MTA -- like when the F was running on the E line in Manhattan a few weekends ago.
> I was actually referring to trains being re-routed by the MTA -- like when the F was running on the E line in Manhattan a few weekends ago.
Ah. To be fair, I think all the apps do this now, including Google and Apple Maps.
Regarding alternate routes with Citymapper, I kind of wish it offered me alternates that don't necessarily include the original end station. I find I often end trips at stations I'm supposed to switch trains at and find routes to different stations than my initial route that still save time.
Ah. To be fair, I think all the apps do this now, including Google and Apple Maps.
Regarding alternate routes with Citymapper, I kind of wish it offered me alternates that don't necessarily include the original end station. I find I often end trips at stations I'm supposed to switch trains at and find routes to different stations than my initial route that still save time.
For London at least, better routing, more accurate timings, and also accurate updates on things like strikes. It used to be significantly better but Google Maps released an update a few years ago that makes the gap relatively small though, but it is still better.
It's also surprisingly useful to have two mapping apps on mobile devices which otherwise make it difficult to have two separate routes open at once.
It's also surprisingly useful to have two mapping apps on mobile devices which otherwise make it difficult to have two separate routes open at once.
In Paris, France, Citymapper is very accurate about subway timings, walk timings, which exit to use, ... it's the most precise and efficient transit app available here from my experience.
In London, Citymapper shows the cost of each trip which can be very useful as there are often many routes that might take a similar amount of time but cost different (eg. sometimes you can take skip zone 1 for a few extra minutes or understand why you're paying extra when taking a train instead of tube in South London). It also recommends the best exit to take quite accurately for train/tube stations.
Citymapper is also much quicker to incorporate changed schedules and excludes delayed / cancelled trains from results within minutes of the changes being announced.
For altered schedules, Google is not only slower to react but also just posts a generic link to the TfL website - and you then have to parse the TfL notice yourself to understand which stations / bus stops are closed etc. The routes suggested by Google also still include cancelled trains / buses - it's your job to double check by visiting the TfL / train operator's websites.
Citymapper is also much quicker to incorporate changed schedules and excludes delayed / cancelled trains from results within minutes of the changes being announced.
For altered schedules, Google is not only slower to react but also just posts a generic link to the TfL website - and you then have to parse the TfL notice yourself to understand which stations / bus stops are closed etc. The routes suggested by Google also still include cancelled trains / buses - it's your job to double check by visiting the TfL / train operator's websites.
Citymapper incorporates transit delays/outages. When I switched from using Google Maps several years ago, they didn't, and I haven't had much of a reason to switch back. Big difference between "based on average times, this is the fastest route" and "based on the latest information, this is the fastest route".
I think all the big apps use live transit info now. That said, Citymapper actively surfaces that it's rerouting because of cancellations on XYZ train, which is very helpful information. I don't see Google or Apple Maps suggesting routes with cancelled trains either, but without that information front and center it can be confusing if it's not a regular route.
Via is not a general-purpose transit system. Via is an on-demand customizable van service that is often used by municipalities. It would be a ride type in Citymapper, not a competitor to Citymapper.
Some cities, like the Park City area in Utah, integrate the busses and Via vans into a single app to optimize the use of both. Citymapper could do this in-app in the future, creating chained transit options.
Some cities, like the Park City area in Utah, integrate the busses and Via vans into a single app to optimize the use of both. Citymapper could do this in-app in the future, creating chained transit options.
One advantage to me is that it’s not Google. So I’m not adding to my profile at Google and I’m not helping them consolidate their advantage.
I also live in Chicago and use CityMapper almost exclusively now. It gives way more detailed estimates for multiple transfers between bus and train and generally comes up with more/better routes for weird destinations.
Does CityMapper suffer from the same "ghost bus" phenomenon that google maps does?
What's the 'ghost bus' phenomena? I'm in NYC and don't use Google Maps.
In Chicago google maps will show live bus info with the busses location on the map. However some of these are “ghost” busses and they don’t really exist.
I think it’s a uniquely Chicago problem.
Here is an article on it: https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/cta-makes-more-changes...
I think it’s a uniquely Chicago problem.
Here is an article on it: https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/cta-makes-more-changes...
Huh. In NYC I've had issues with routes designed around scheduled buses that were subsequently cancelled, but I feel I've only had that happen on Transit and not CityMapper. Live bus location on the map for a bus that isn't running is definitely news to me though.
Ghost busses are most likely an issue with the GTFS real-time data from the agency, which the app just displays.
I’ve personally also experienced the same issue with SF’s Muni.
I’ve personally also experienced the same issue with SF’s Muni.
Can’t speak for Chicago, but this is most likely the case.
As someone who has first hand experience with transit agencies, the tech infrastructure is unfortunately not to the level it should be.
That said, google isn’t always the easiest to communicate with when trying to fix such issues.
As someone who has first hand experience with transit agencies, the tech infrastructure is unfortunately not to the level it should be.
That said, google isn’t always the easiest to communicate with when trying to fix such issues.
I enabled (silent) push notifications for the routes and lines I use going to and from work. It is more convenient than searching for a route every time or visiting the transit agency website.
Also, the app oozes personality.
Also, the app oozes personality.
I use CityMapper solely for train and bus maps. I'm probably a minority, considering how increasingly hidden the maps button ends up getting with each release.
when I lived in NY / Philly, Citymapper was way ahead of Google maps in terms of transit info.
since moving to live in europe, I haven't had much use for Citymapper.
Fairly unrelated I guess but I'd love to work on navigation software of some sort. I worked on a project involving it in project and had quite a lot of fun with it, something very gratifying about making something useful for day to day.
I did apply to citymapper at some point to no avail unfortunately.
I did apply to citymapper at some point to no avail unfortunately.
I hope this is appropriate, but I work at Transit and we do have some openings right now:
https://transitapp.com/jobs
https://transitapp.com/jobs
Does feel borderline appropriate. But kudos for trying.
Citymapper is definitely hiring now. https://citymapper.com/jobs Or feel free to contact me directly on [email protected]
Citymapper is definitely hiring now. https://citymapper.com/jobs Or feel free to contact me directly on [email protected]
i wish you were hiring a product manager, as i'd love to help you fix the horrid UX on the departure details screen i just posted about. it's been there for years, and i can't imagine that anyone who actually uses the app would have let it go that long without fixing it.
Absolutely love Citymapper for finding pleasant bike routes! Really hope this doesn't end up handicapping the product or spreading focus thin.
Have recommended it to so many people. Biking wouldn't be the same without it.
Have recommended it to so many people. Biking wouldn't be the same without it.
Thank you for the feedback and love.
Cycling and walking are indeed core to the app experience and multimodal routing and will remain important.
Don't worry there's a ton of other bike routing products out there.
> The app will continue
I really doubt that after less than 5 years it will be rolled into Via.
Is there any thriving UK startups still around acquiring US companies? It seems that the news I see is US company acquires UK startup when I don't see the other way round.
Really makes the UK startup scene just a european HQ for US companies at a discount.
I really doubt that after less than 5 years it will be rolled into Via.
Is there any thriving UK startups still around acquiring US companies? It seems that the news I see is US company acquires UK startup when I don't see the other way round.
Really makes the UK startup scene just a european HQ for US companies at a discount.
compared to Israel, yeah UK tech scene seems to be underperforming.
there's massive technical talent in the uk, favorable laws and common language with the us.
I think what let's the uk down, is a lot of places lose focus, talent is lost to consulting shops, bureaucracy slows a lot of things down.
a counter point is look at game studios - uk seems to be delivering there.
it's just other products where uk is underperforming.
uk i.e london should be ahead of places like austin in terms of # of startups
London is a really unattractive place when you consider salary vs housing affordability. Most of the high tech salary goes straight into the pocket of landlords. And you can forget buying.
But London is where most of the innovative high-paying firms are. So tech workers are in a bind: move to London for a nominally high-paying tech job but get fucking hosed on rent and travel costs, or stay in the regions and work in a lower paid, less interesting firm. There isn't much real difference to your standard of living.
It's not just the absolute level of rent either; it also goes up faster. People don't want that kind of liability, you need a raise just to stay in place, and raises aren't forthcoming lately.
And it's not easy to get a London-tier salary while working remotely from rural Yorkshire or something. They've been tamping down hard on that kind of thing.
The housing market is rigged for boomers and it's strangling Britain's growth. Forget freedom of movement with Europe; I'd like freedom of movement inside my own fucking country first.
(And all of the above sounds similar to NYC and SF -- it is, but London's salary upside is nowhere near as high as those places. And Americans have several big metropoles to choose from, we only have the one.)
But London is where most of the innovative high-paying firms are. So tech workers are in a bind: move to London for a nominally high-paying tech job but get fucking hosed on rent and travel costs, or stay in the regions and work in a lower paid, less interesting firm. There isn't much real difference to your standard of living.
It's not just the absolute level of rent either; it also goes up faster. People don't want that kind of liability, you need a raise just to stay in place, and raises aren't forthcoming lately.
And it's not easy to get a London-tier salary while working remotely from rural Yorkshire or something. They've been tamping down hard on that kind of thing.
The housing market is rigged for boomers and it's strangling Britain's growth. Forget freedom of movement with Europe; I'd like freedom of movement inside my own fucking country first.
(And all of the above sounds similar to NYC and SF -- it is, but London's salary upside is nowhere near as high as those places. And Americans have several big metropoles to choose from, we only have the one.)
I don't think the UK particularly encourages startups either. It's all very well saying you want to be a "science and technology superpower" but everything feels like buzzword bingo - quantum! AI! Corp tax is going up, entrepreneur's tax relief went from 10m to 1m...
I'm just ranting. I don't know the answer, I don't know what they should be doing. But there's a ton of people doing cool things (or trying to!) and absolutely as you say, it's a whole lot harder to take any risks when London costs as much as it does and bills and expenses are doing what they're doing.
I'm just ranting. I don't know the answer, I don't know what they should be doing. But there's a ton of people doing cool things (or trying to!) and absolutely as you say, it's a whole lot harder to take any risks when London costs as much as it does and bills and expenses are doing what they're doing.
At some point more startups have got to be tempted by Birmingham unless they really need to network with the City. Has the big city stuff except glamour, close enough to London when the sales or fundraising effort needs to be there, and even the entry level devs can afford their own flat.
"except glamour" lol, understatement of the millennium
I say this as someone that used to live and work in London (and spent a small time living in Birmingham as a child), Birmingham has a HUGE way to go to convince anyone like me to live there
It may be big, but attractive it is not
I say this as someone that used to live and work in London (and spent a small time living in Birmingham as a child), Birmingham has a HUGE way to go to convince anyone like me to live there
It may be big, but attractive it is not
Glamour is relative though. It's even more of an understatement to say Brum is unlikely to be a tourist mecca, but startup salary London isn't Belgravia and the Queen and the West End, it's renting a room in a bog standard Victorian house shared with four strangers in Clapham and cramming onto the Tube for half an hour to get into a Wework whilst dreaming of an exit big enough to own 25% of your own home. You might actually feel more glamorous with your own place in a posh suburb with an overground or a shiny city centre flat even if that city is Birmingham, and the format of the Wework doesn't change much. If you plonked Old Street roundabout onto the edge of Birmingham's inner ring road it'd fit in seamlessly, and for the many hipsters that love the er... bohemian nature of Shoreditch's grimy canals and rail underpasses, sketchy tower blocks and yuppie flats next to crumbling graffiti-covered Victorian buildings turned into bars to sell young trendy people expensive drinks.... just wait until they see how much of that lot Brum has!
it has a population over million and doesn't even have a metro. and it's ugly as fuck. I don't know how it works out for startup economics but I wouldn't move there.
there's also our sad little "Silicon Fen" around Cambridge, again rubbish because of housing affordability and lack of good transport links. it's a national tragedy that there isn't a direct railway link between Oxford and Cambridge (thanks Dr Beeching).
there's also our sad little "Silicon Fen" around Cambridge, again rubbish because of housing affordability and lack of good transport links. it's a national tragedy that there isn't a direct railway link between Oxford and Cambridge (thanks Dr Beeching).
This is the biggest problem in the UK.
I'm lucky to be working remotely as a Software Engineer from North Leeds for a London based prop-tech startup. Salary around £70k, 1.5/2 years experience.
I was living in London for about five to six years, but our rental came to an end. With the mania of last year, we were looking at £2000-£3000 per month for a very average, fairly cramped flat within zone 2 (or 40 mins to our offices). Despite my partner being a solicitor (£50k, but could have been closer to £100k now if we stayed), it felt like a really long road to be able to afford a home.
As much as I love London, my friends and the opportunities, we were killing ourselves for vague dream of eventually owning a very average house, or a good leasehold flat in 5-10 years time. It was incredibly demotivating. But maybe our standards are high.
We instead bought a huge five detached bedroom house. 15 minutes on the bus to the city, 5 minutes drive and your in the countryside, another 20 and you're in the Yorkshire Dales. David Llyods 5 minute drive away. Empty state of the art, free to use, public tennis courts 10 minutes walk. Massive park (used to be Europes largest urban park) right outside our door. Lots of local pubs and eateries within walking distance and more variety throughout Yorkshire a short drive away. Our monthly mortgage repayments are £1800 (£950 interest, the rest on capital). Quality of life is a no brainer. We live like royalty up here.
Even for start-ups the cost of office space is felt high in London. My company were looking at some really average 10-15 seater rooms, which were coming in at £10k per month. I'm sure office space in smaller cities is much cheaper, plus you probably get better employee retention as they aren't squeezed so hard by living circumstances (or poached as a result of needing more money).
It's just such a shame that 90%+ (guess) of innovative start ups are in the South East. It becomes self fulfilling as the labour market thickness is much greater there as you can rely on public transport (unlike the North), so more people go there, so more thickness, so easier to hire the team you need.
1) Create reliable public transport in other cities which is competitive to London. Get out of UK centrist mindset. 2) Change cultural perceptions about the rest of the country. Literally a few fictional TV shows or stories about young, techy people living a lifestyle where they all own their own houses, maybe turn an old industrial mill room into a little start-up HQ, go swimming in waterfalls in the Dales at the weekend and still have great nights out in Leeds is all that is needed to break the London fixation. To show people that there is in fact, life beyond London. 3) Create incentives to get some first movers to relocate. Like if a start up physically locates in a particular area (say Leeds city centre), the government will pay half the salaries for the first 20 employees for 3 years. Maybe even throw in some free accommodation in a co-living space to help people settle when they relocate (a bit like a uni experience). Make it financially attractive to founders to scale their businesses in different places.
I'm sure there's flaws in those arguments, but there are definitely things the UK can do to make it less depressing to start a business here! It just takes some will, and the government to have the balls to do something tangible outside of the Whitehall bubble.
I'm lucky to be working remotely as a Software Engineer from North Leeds for a London based prop-tech startup. Salary around £70k, 1.5/2 years experience.
I was living in London for about five to six years, but our rental came to an end. With the mania of last year, we were looking at £2000-£3000 per month for a very average, fairly cramped flat within zone 2 (or 40 mins to our offices). Despite my partner being a solicitor (£50k, but could have been closer to £100k now if we stayed), it felt like a really long road to be able to afford a home.
As much as I love London, my friends and the opportunities, we were killing ourselves for vague dream of eventually owning a very average house, or a good leasehold flat in 5-10 years time. It was incredibly demotivating. But maybe our standards are high.
We instead bought a huge five detached bedroom house. 15 minutes on the bus to the city, 5 minutes drive and your in the countryside, another 20 and you're in the Yorkshire Dales. David Llyods 5 minute drive away. Empty state of the art, free to use, public tennis courts 10 minutes walk. Massive park (used to be Europes largest urban park) right outside our door. Lots of local pubs and eateries within walking distance and more variety throughout Yorkshire a short drive away. Our monthly mortgage repayments are £1800 (£950 interest, the rest on capital). Quality of life is a no brainer. We live like royalty up here.
Even for start-ups the cost of office space is felt high in London. My company were looking at some really average 10-15 seater rooms, which were coming in at £10k per month. I'm sure office space in smaller cities is much cheaper, plus you probably get better employee retention as they aren't squeezed so hard by living circumstances (or poached as a result of needing more money).
It's just such a shame that 90%+ (guess) of innovative start ups are in the South East. It becomes self fulfilling as the labour market thickness is much greater there as you can rely on public transport (unlike the North), so more people go there, so more thickness, so easier to hire the team you need.
1) Create reliable public transport in other cities which is competitive to London. Get out of UK centrist mindset. 2) Change cultural perceptions about the rest of the country. Literally a few fictional TV shows or stories about young, techy people living a lifestyle where they all own their own houses, maybe turn an old industrial mill room into a little start-up HQ, go swimming in waterfalls in the Dales at the weekend and still have great nights out in Leeds is all that is needed to break the London fixation. To show people that there is in fact, life beyond London. 3) Create incentives to get some first movers to relocate. Like if a start up physically locates in a particular area (say Leeds city centre), the government will pay half the salaries for the first 20 employees for 3 years. Maybe even throw in some free accommodation in a co-living space to help people settle when they relocate (a bit like a uni experience). Make it financially attractive to founders to scale their businesses in different places.
I'm sure there's flaws in those arguments, but there are definitely things the UK can do to make it less depressing to start a business here! It just takes some will, and the government to have the balls to do something tangible outside of the Whitehall bubble.
>But maybe our standards are high.
No, our standards are too low. People just have this fatalist attitude, "oh yeah it's London, of course it's expensive". It's how they make you feel like it's you're just an uppity prole for wanting a better life. Fuck that. London was affordable within living memory, and it can be again. The problem is purely a lack of political will to allow enough good housing to be built.
>I'm sure there's flaws in those arguments, but there are definitely things the UK can do to make it less depressing to start a business here!
They're well intentioned, but they wouldn't fix the core problem because your proposals (aside from transport improvements) are all demand-side reforms, but the housing squeeze is almost purely supply-side. It's actually precisely this kind of tinkering that makes the problem worse -- all the lies they put out about "helping first-time buyers" with this or that tax cut or savings scheme -- it's all just musical chairs. It's still the same number of people competing for the same scarcity; it just a zero-sum adjustment of who wins and who loses. If you bring a bunch of tech workers to Leeds, Leeds will end up with a housing crisis, because the underlying legal/regulatory system is the same there as in London, and it encodes an inelastic supply curve into law. What those subsidies will actually do is transfer money (via taxation and debt issue) from productive areas of the economy into the bank accounts of incumbent rentiers, with renters and homebuyers as the delivery system. Prices will keep going up until the planning system is reformed to allow by-right construction, and that means depriving NIMBYs of their veto powers, which is untenable for the Tories. (And Labour will fuck it up in a different way, they're addicted to council housing)
No, our standards are too low. People just have this fatalist attitude, "oh yeah it's London, of course it's expensive". It's how they make you feel like it's you're just an uppity prole for wanting a better life. Fuck that. London was affordable within living memory, and it can be again. The problem is purely a lack of political will to allow enough good housing to be built.
>I'm sure there's flaws in those arguments, but there are definitely things the UK can do to make it less depressing to start a business here!
They're well intentioned, but they wouldn't fix the core problem because your proposals (aside from transport improvements) are all demand-side reforms, but the housing squeeze is almost purely supply-side. It's actually precisely this kind of tinkering that makes the problem worse -- all the lies they put out about "helping first-time buyers" with this or that tax cut or savings scheme -- it's all just musical chairs. It's still the same number of people competing for the same scarcity; it just a zero-sum adjustment of who wins and who loses. If you bring a bunch of tech workers to Leeds, Leeds will end up with a housing crisis, because the underlying legal/regulatory system is the same there as in London, and it encodes an inelastic supply curve into law. What those subsidies will actually do is transfer money (via taxation and debt issue) from productive areas of the economy into the bank accounts of incumbent rentiers, with renters and homebuyers as the delivery system. Prices will keep going up until the planning system is reformed to allow by-right construction, and that means depriving NIMBYs of their veto powers, which is untenable for the Tories. (And Labour will fuck it up in a different way, they're addicted to council housing)
From an employee perspective I don't think it's really worth being outside London right now. I want to live somewhere where there are more than a handful of places that I could work locally (and I don't count companies bashing out websites in PHP etc). I'm not really interested in working for startups, but if I were I would definitely not move across the country for a single employer. It's just not worth the risk. It's sad, because I grew up elsewhere in the country and it would be great for those areas to have the same opportunities as London, but it is what it is.
one thing in regards to that I see the UK as five countries: the fifth country being London.
now regarding how london centric the uk is ? I think it's due to the rampant classism in the uk. the whole "eeww the poors / plebs".
cz to me there's no reason for a bunch of startups to all be concentrated in london, oxford or cambridge.
seems the government wants to encourage regional growth based on remote work. but yeah they will need to incentivize startups to hire people not just in london but throughout the uk.
prop-tech, is that property tech ? with just 1 - 2 years experience that's a good salary.
now regarding how london centric the uk is ? I think it's due to the rampant classism in the uk. the whole "eeww the poors / plebs".
cz to me there's no reason for a bunch of startups to all be concentrated in london, oxford or cambridge.
seems the government wants to encourage regional growth based on remote work. but yeah they will need to incentivize startups to hire people not just in london but throughout the uk.
prop-tech, is that property tech ? with just 1 - 2 years experience that's a good salary.
JustEat (which bought GrubHub and now seems to have merged with the Dutch takeaway.com) is the only example I can think of.
Waze isn't from the UK, but it still exists 10 years after being acquired by Google.
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Via is a great service in the areas of Massachusetts that offer it, hopefully this allows both apps to be improved.
hadn't used this before. Checked out the map. Wondered wtf was going on with the way they colored the nyc subway. Realized they highlight lines whenever there's a service change in effect, under the assumption that would be the uncommon case, and never anticipated highlighting most of the city in painful bright orange.
Citymapper is useful but has extremely high battery usage on both Android and iOS. I use Google Maps and TfL Go instead, but I'd happily use Citymapper more if they fix this.
I reported an issue with Citymapper not handling a loop bus route properly in 2018. Haven't used it since, they never fixed it.
If you can identify a niche and keep your costs down then you might have a chance. Apps targeted at enthusiast cyclists continue to do well, for example, although I have my doubts about expenditure vs revenue for some of them. (Disclaimer: I run a small-scale cycle routing app/site.)
But "people who want to get around Western European and North American cities" is not a niche that Apple/Google were ever going to overlook.
[1] "Citymapper investors are mostly not making their money back in the transaction and that it’s effectively a washout": https://techcrunch.com/2023/03/16/via-acquires-trip-planning...