Is Nerd Culture Dying?(samkriss.substack.com)
samkriss.substack.com
Is Nerd Culture Dying?
https://samkriss.substack.com/p/all-the-nerds-are-dead
116 comments
Author's quite the judgmental bastard with a strange definition of nerd, but yeah most people ITT are just riffing on the title. It's a bit too prosaic to expect most people to read it in full though, but you get the gist after the first minute or so.
That said I get the reason for the title, "Hipster watches as the consoooomers meets the same fate his people did many moons ago" is far less catchy.
That said I get the reason for the title, "Hipster watches as the consoooomers meets the same fate his people did many moons ago" is far less catchy.
Hahaha, I read the article first for some reason (I usually don't), but was then expecting exactly that: everybody discussing the title, not the article itself.
I should probably always read the article first, if I don't find the title interesting enough to do that, then reading the comments is probably just a waste of time as well.
Yes, his definition of nerd is unusual, but I like it ;-)
I should probably always read the article first, if I don't find the title interesting enough to do that, then reading the comments is probably just a waste of time as well.
Yes, his definition of nerd is unusual, but I like it ;-)
Fortunately it doesn't take much reading to figure out that this joker redefines words however he likes.
Therefore, he is an elbow macaroni, and I refuse to read the work of elbow macaroni.
Therefore, he is an elbow macaroni, and I refuse to read the work of elbow macaroni.
> I think it's a huge oversimplification and I don't think "nerd" is a good term to use for what he's describing, but it's entertaining and would be fun to discuss if HN were capable of that.
So you yourself acknowledge it's a bad article and the author plays fast and loose with common terms, yet somehow HN is to blame?
> would be fun to discuss if HN were capable of that.
It sure would be, but could we pick a more sophisticated baseline than a multi-page rant about Marvel movies (who are almost universally understood to be pretty bad by adults, and are targeted at a less discerning demographic, e.g. 15-19 male)
> he makes a specific claim and does so eloquently and emotively.
Brevity is the sister of talent. If one has a point to make, it should be made prior to the halfway point of their diatribe. That's the least they could do just out of basic respect to their audience, unless they're just Twitter-shouting into the void.
So you yourself acknowledge it's a bad article and the author plays fast and loose with common terms, yet somehow HN is to blame?
> would be fun to discuss if HN were capable of that.
It sure would be, but could we pick a more sophisticated baseline than a multi-page rant about Marvel movies (who are almost universally understood to be pretty bad by adults, and are targeted at a less discerning demographic, e.g. 15-19 male)
> he makes a specific claim and does so eloquently and emotively.
Brevity is the sister of talent. If one has a point to make, it should be made prior to the halfway point of their diatribe. That's the least they could do just out of basic respect to their audience, unless they're just Twitter-shouting into the void.
In my opinion the author completely mischaracterizes what hipsters and nerds are. Hipster just want to be different, unique, feel that they're not part the mainstream, that is their reason d'être, while nerds are obsessively interested and knowledgeable about a niche topic. The counter-example of someone "obsessive, all-consuming interest in the literature and mysticism of the medieval and early modern eras" would definitely be a nerd of medieval literature. So the definition of nerd as people who love hideous, terrible things, is not only insulting but also inaccurate.
To a degree everything can be subjectively considered bad to the uninitiated.
Also, I believe the reason why book sales are going up except young fiction which is going down is because younger generation have an increasingly shorter attention span, they've grown used to short videos like Tik-Tok, etc so they can't get bother with reading an actual full length book.
I just get chills when I think of the AI generated media (songs, books, movies) in the coming years and decades...
To a degree everything can be subjectively considered bad to the uninitiated.
Also, I believe the reason why book sales are going up except young fiction which is going down is because younger generation have an increasingly shorter attention span, they've grown used to short videos like Tik-Tok, etc so they can't get bother with reading an actual full length book.
I just get chills when I think of the AI generated media (songs, books, movies) in the coming years and decades...
AI generated Techno is already a thing, and I can't tell it apart from actual Techno, as per the xkcd cartoon.
https://xkcd.com/411/
Here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-h1sHVw5K6w
https://xkcd.com/411/
Here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-h1sHVw5K6w
I think that nerd culture has just gone mainstream. It's far from dying.
Indeed. And "real" nerd culture has just became deeper, and more specialized. Back in the day, a lot of the nerds were into the same type of things, while now there are sub-groups. Some nerds are anime-nerds, others are programming-nerds, and not every programming-nerd is an anime-nerd, and vice-versa. And the amount of nerd-sub groups is huge, every quarter or so I encounter a nerdy topic and sub-group I had no idea about before.
Being from a small rural Australian town, it was amazing when I found my nerds in the big city. You do end up a bit pigeonholed when everything gets too specific. I think that is why I like makerspaces and things like that. You get all sorts.
I had the same experience. It wasn't until I was around ~15 or so I discovered our tiny place actually had two whole other people who were into computers. At one point, I moved to a bigger area and discovered there were full groups of up to 20 people per group that also liked computers. Opened up a whole new world.
There are so many groups and most of them don't regularly pop up in mainstream culture.
The fact that mainstream has co-opted many of the past nerdy things doesn't mean they are gone. They have just moved to new not so visible things. And those are hard to see in sea of all the content produced. Independent podcast and comics are a thing. And then there is novels and such from China, Korea and Japan. Some of these more mainstream already lot less.
The fact that mainstream has co-opted many of the past nerdy things doesn't mean they are gone. They have just moved to new not so visible things. And those are hard to see in sea of all the content produced. Independent podcast and comics are a thing. And then there is novels and such from China, Korea and Japan. Some of these more mainstream already lot less.
The objects of nerd culture went mainstream, but the nerds themselves did IMHO not. And because of the change that mainstream brought on their objects, nerds are losing their culture. People can like the same thing, but for different reasons. And this becomes a problem when people are not aware of other people's reason and just start changing them, making them more matching their own reasons. So at some point, the traits that the original fans like are disappearing, getting replaces by the preferred traits of the new fans.
We've seen this many times. Star Trek being probably a very notable example, where the fancy new original Series was a great disappointment for many fans, while the (semi)comedy-version from a fan became the preferred love of this fans.
We've seen this many times. Star Trek being probably a very notable example, where the fancy new original Series was a great disappointment for many fans, while the (semi)comedy-version from a fan became the preferred love of this fans.
Well, TNG put the bar very high on quality. New series, don't.
On video games, even simple games like BSD trek and Super-Star-Trek on Python3 have great designs and still be played. The same with roguelikes like Nethack/Slashem.
On video games, even simple games like BSD trek and Super-Star-Trek on Python3 have great designs and still be played. The same with roguelikes like Nethack/Slashem.
I think 'geek chic' (i.e poseurs) went mainstream a while ago, but actual nerds will never be popular by definition.
I've tried in vain to find people at parties who care about my favourite arcane programming languages and obscure political doctrine, it's impossible :(
I've tried in vain to find people at parties who care about my favourite arcane programming languages and obscure political doctrine, it's impossible :(
Other nerds don't have to care about the same stuff as you, they just have to be interested.
I am still tight with my group of 7 guys from school and we are all nerds but hardly share a single interest. We are interested in hearing about each other's niche shit and that's what keeps us together.
I am still tight with my group of 7 guys from school and we are all nerds but hardly share a single interest. We are interested in hearing about each other's niche shit and that's what keeps us together.
> I am still tight with my group of 7 guys from school
While that's nice and all, it's not super helpful advice for people who are trying to make new friends, as we cannot go back in time and repeat school from younger days...
While that's nice and all, it's not super helpful advice for people who are trying to make new friends, as we cannot go back in time and repeat school from younger days...
You appear to have missed my point. My second para is simply an example, not the point I'm making.
The point is: your friends don't have to be interested in exactly the same stuff as you, they just need to be interested in you.
The point is: your friends don't have to be interested in exactly the same stuff as you, they just need to be interested in you.
Ah, but the parent made the explicit point of trying to find people they have two specific topics in common with. To argue that they shouldn't, doesn't help them in their quest for what they are specifically asking about.
It's ok to want to look for people with common interests, just as it's ok to feel it's enough to spend time with people you don't have a lot of common interests with.
It's ok to want to look for people with common interests, just as it's ok to feel it's enough to spend time with people you don't have a lot of common interests with.
Some sub-groups of people are more frequent visitors of some type of events than others. Depending exactly what you mean with "parties", it could be that those types of events are not the right one to find the sub-group you're out after.
If you wanna find people to talk about finance, you wouldn't attend a football match, for example. So if you wanna find programmers, you're gonna have to attend programming related events, or some related area like hardware hacking, or just generally "makers" meetup.
For political groups, there tend to be groups of those all over the world, for every affiliation, but depending on the ideology and the overall political temperature, sometimes people try to avoid letting those opinions bleed over to other areas of interest.
If you wanna find people to talk about finance, you wouldn't attend a football match, for example. So if you wanna find programmers, you're gonna have to attend programming related events, or some related area like hardware hacking, or just generally "makers" meetup.
For political groups, there tend to be groups of those all over the world, for every affiliation, but depending on the ideology and the overall political temperature, sometimes people try to avoid letting those opinions bleed over to other areas of interest.
FWIW I consider myself an "actual nerd", but I also find "arcane programming languages and obscure political doctrines" to be extremely boring. No offense, but I would definitely snub you at one of those parties where you're looking for nerds. To me programming languages are just a means to an end and political doctrines are for nontechnical people. I'm more interested in building stuff.
Eg I wanted to benchmark the CPU inside my Apple Watch last week and I couldn't find any off-the-shelf apps that do this, so I had to learn enough Swift to create a basic UI with a start button and a multiply-and-add loop that pegs a CPU core. I would never learn a new language if I didn't have to.
Another example: I couldn't find any reasonably priced tool chests so I bought a table saw with the intention of building my own tool chests out of plywood next week. When I mentioned this to nerdy/technical friends, they were all interested because they also had a metric fuckton of tools, computer hardware, solvents, etc that they wanted to store efficiently. I think if you worked on more practical projects like this you'd be a lot more popular at parties where most attendees are engineers.
Eg I wanted to benchmark the CPU inside my Apple Watch last week and I couldn't find any off-the-shelf apps that do this, so I had to learn enough Swift to create a basic UI with a start button and a multiply-and-add loop that pegs a CPU core. I would never learn a new language if I didn't have to.
Another example: I couldn't find any reasonably priced tool chests so I bought a table saw with the intention of building my own tool chests out of plywood next week. When I mentioned this to nerdy/technical friends, they were all interested because they also had a metric fuckton of tools, computer hardware, solvents, etc that they wanted to store efficiently. I think if you worked on more practical projects like this you'd be a lot more popular at parties where most attendees are engineers.
Fair criticism. I think I need to move away from politics for my own sanity. I've thought this way for a while, even though I've avoided partisanship and focused on philosophy. Even there it's all heat and not much light, and in my experience building things is always more fun.
If every other person cared about it wouldnt be arcane or obscure, would it?
Given you talk about ‘poseurs’ you sound more like a hipster than a geek.
Given you talk about ‘poseurs’ you sound more like a hipster than a geek.
Yogi Berra: “Nobody goes there anymore, it’s too crowded”
(Warning: quote attribution nerdary ahead)
> In conclusion, the earliest instances of this remark were anonymous. The comedians Rags Ragland and Ukie Sherin employed the quip, as did the writer John McNulty. In addition, there is some evidence that Yogi Berra employed the joke, but in all cases the jest was already in circulation.
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/08/29/too-crowded/
> In conclusion, the earliest instances of this remark were anonymous. The comedians Rags Ragland and Ukie Sherin employed the quip, as did the writer John McNulty. In addition, there is some evidence that Yogi Berra employed the joke, but in all cases the jest was already in circulation.
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/08/29/too-crowded/
The others before McNulty in 1943, the others were thematic, but not there. Berra was born in ‘25. It’s possible in the days before the internet that two distinct an unconnected people came up with a similar expression, or, given baseball traveling maybe he picked it up from others along the way. So I think it’s a tossup between Berra and McNulty. The others are on their way there but not there.
... It's where I personnaly differentiate nerd culture and Geek culture.
> has just gone mainstream
Care to provide some examples? Most "nerd" interests like SciFi have been neutered if not completely bent out of shape while going mainstream.
Care to provide some examples? Most "nerd" interests like SciFi have been neutered if not completely bent out of shape while going mainstream.
The term "MCU" being in the common cultral lexicon.
Mellon Carnegie is a very respectable institute, I don't see what that has to do with nerd culture.
except since phase 4 MCU is now definitely a synonym for "boring, neutered, ill-concived, weak, pale shadow of former self, stuff°
Kudos to Disney that was able to completely ruin it in just a decade.
Kudos to Disney that was able to completely ruin it in just a decade.
Implying it was ever anything but childish slop
This only proves the point.
the point was that
Most "nerd" interests like SciFi have been neutered if not completely bent out of shape while going mainstream
So no, it's not nerd culture that is dying, it's mainstream "nerdism" that committed suicide.
Nerd culture was never mainstream, MCU wasn't nerd culture becoming mainstream, it was "squeeze the lemon and hope it sticks".
And it did for a while, but not understanding what's the appeal of nerd culture for nerds, they went back to producing blockbusters that kinda resembles marvel if you squint hard enough, but it's actually the same thing of watching independence day set in a World where they replaced Jeff Goldblum with a guy dressed like a superhero.
Nerd are still enjoying their nerdy stuff, while completely ignoring mainstream travesties from multi-billion-dollars corporations.
MCU is not the same MCU nerds were crazy about when they were kids, in the same way kids today consider what we called nerd stuff back then as "old people garbage"
Most "nerd" interests like SciFi have been neutered if not completely bent out of shape while going mainstream
So no, it's not nerd culture that is dying, it's mainstream "nerdism" that committed suicide.
Nerd culture was never mainstream, MCU wasn't nerd culture becoming mainstream, it was "squeeze the lemon and hope it sticks".
And it did for a while, but not understanding what's the appeal of nerd culture for nerds, they went back to producing blockbusters that kinda resembles marvel if you squint hard enough, but it's actually the same thing of watching independence day set in a World where they replaced Jeff Goldblum with a guy dressed like a superhero.
Nerd are still enjoying their nerdy stuff, while completely ignoring mainstream travesties from multi-billion-dollars corporations.
MCU is not the same MCU nerds were crazy about when they were kids, in the same way kids today consider what we called nerd stuff back then as "old people garbage"
Huh? Do normal people like microcontrollers these days? Maybe I should go outside...
Never heard of.
George RR Martin made a good point- that if a nerd is someone with a lot of knowledge about something others find uninteresting, we've all become nerds with the advent of the internet. It's just too easy to go down a rabbit hole not to be a nerd in regards to something.
But going down a rabbit hole in the era of internet does not necessarily mean gaining a lot of knowledge. Usually it means binge learning other people's information and conclusions, while not making any relevant experience and conclusion on your own, thus not making much knowledge yourself. And then moving to the next rabbit hole, to forget most things you have learned just now.
For me, a nerd is also someone who sticks to the hole and builds their own labyrinth to some degree.
For me, a nerd is also someone who sticks to the hole and builds their own labyrinth to some degree.
Personal computing has gone mainstream.
Video games have gone mainstream.
Internet has gone mainstream.
Anime has gone mainstream.
"AI" has gone mainstream.
I think it's fair to say that nerd culture does, has, and always will exist, but what nerd culture is changes with the passing sands of time. The nerds of today are not the nerds of yesteryear (read: us).
Video games have gone mainstream.
Internet has gone mainstream.
Anime has gone mainstream.
"AI" has gone mainstream.
I think it's fair to say that nerd culture does, has, and always will exist, but what nerd culture is changes with the passing sands of time. The nerds of today are not the nerds of yesteryear (read: us).
Anime in Europe was already mainstream in the 80's and 90's with Dragon Ball (late 80's/early-mid 90's), Captain Tsubasa, Candy Candy, Mazinger Z, Heidi. On video games, well, everyone played Tetris at least once.
...and none of this preserved any sort of unique culture, only proving my point.
I think it would be more accurate to say the mainstream has appropriated nerd culture.
When you have a Dungeons and Dragons movie hitting over 100mil in the box office, and when comic book movies are some of the highest grossing, i think its pretty safe to say nerd culture is incredibly mainstream.
"nerd culture" is not about what but how.
There were popular D&D shows already in the 80s.
Most comic book movies are simply bad, and "real" nerds hate them.
No nerd loved the last Star Wars trilogy or Rings of power or Wonder Woman 1984 or the nth spider-verse repetition, mostly because studios take something popular among nerds and change it to please modern audience which is exactly what's wrong with the so called "nerd culture" today: it's not a culture.
There were popular D&D shows already in the 80s.
Most comic book movies are simply bad, and "real" nerds hate them.
No nerd loved the last Star Wars trilogy or Rings of power or Wonder Woman 1984 or the nth spider-verse repetition, mostly because studios take something popular among nerds and change it to please modern audience which is exactly what's wrong with the so called "nerd culture" today: it's not a culture.
This. Also, the term "roguelike" for action-adventure games. FFS, if you play a roguelike like Slashem you will know all of these "roguelike" wannabe's have nothing to do with the genre. There are just rehased Zelda-likes with permadeath.
One could hope that what is dying is the idea that there is such a thing as "nerd culture".
There must be one. Countries like america were making moves to attract nerds, by incorporating nerdiness in popular cultuyre. Usually nerdiness is invisible in most cultures, because cultures are dominated by the most extroverted people. Geeks are never 'chic' almost by definition, but they became economically very important for a period of time. Tech has been however stagnating in the post-iphone age , with social media and content dominating again. Now there is going to be another nerdy wave with AI, which is again bringing nerdy-looking people to the economic forefront. Most of the AI nerds are not the ones we see on podcasts currently, but we see their names in publications
Can you be more transparent about who you’re insulting and how you hope to thus raise your own status? It’s difficult to figure out anything from what you’ve written except that you hold someone in contempt.
Are you well?
I am criticizing the idea that "nerd culture" is a thing which exists. The presumption that an overgeneralized stereotype conveys some form of meaning. That there there is some monoculture common to "nerds" that can be said to be "dying".
All of this is clear from my written words.
I am criticizing the idea that "nerd culture" is a thing which exists. The presumption that an overgeneralized stereotype conveys some form of meaning. That there there is some monoculture common to "nerds" that can be said to be "dying".
All of this is clear from my written words.
Ah, do you hold the people who identity with and find meaning in “nerd culture” in contempt and are insulting them? Thank you for clarifying.
What an incredible article
> But imagine a person who collects the boxes from every McDonald’s order he’s ever made, who’s yapping with excitement about the new McDonald’s partially hydrogenated soybean-canola oil blend, who can’t wait for them to release the McBento in Japan so he can watch video reviews all day, and who acts incredibly smug every time McDonald’s posts its quarterly earnings and they’re growing faster than Burger King’s. You know exactly what this person looks like. A total failure of an adult human being.
> But imagine a person who collects the boxes from every McDonald’s order he’s ever made, who’s yapping with excitement about the new McDonald’s partially hydrogenated soybean-canola oil blend, who can’t wait for them to release the McBento in Japan so he can watch video reviews all day, and who acts incredibly smug every time McDonald’s posts its quarterly earnings and they’re growing faster than Burger King’s. You know exactly what this person looks like. A total failure of an adult human being.
He almost hits on what's changed in my brain, but then kind of wanders into this weird criticism of...things people enjoy.
I think the shift is that we don't have a monoculture anymore (thanks to the Internet and especially social media) so what seems like we're losing nerd culture and these niche interests in "bad" things really just means that everyone can find them now and likewise folks who are into these niche interests can find each other. This change is creating the (for lack of a better term?) "illusion" of mainstreaming. The people who would be interested were always there. It was just the means of mass cultural communication and spread to reach them with whatever interest weren't. The main "stream" is now the main "lake" and everyone's jumped in. Things you think are "bad" can now reach enough "nerds" who think they're good to reach a modicum of popularity. I view this as maybe a good thing?
Of course, the other edge of this sword is that it allows folks who have unhealthy interests and ideas to find each other as well. That's why we've seen an uptick in radical ideologies of all sorts and things like the incel movement take such deep root. Those weren't part of the normalized zeitgeist before, but now that everything's in the pool and given equal cultural footing, it again creates a bubble of popularity that sometimes has an outsized impact.
We have decided that algorithms are the answer to this problem, and maybe that's a good answer. But I think we've also decided that commercial driven, ad laden algorithms are not the answer. So I'm not sure we have a good solution currently. Maybe if we spread some AI on it (and throw some ML and heck a few blockchains in for good measure) we can generate something useful.
I think the shift is that we don't have a monoculture anymore (thanks to the Internet and especially social media) so what seems like we're losing nerd culture and these niche interests in "bad" things really just means that everyone can find them now and likewise folks who are into these niche interests can find each other. This change is creating the (for lack of a better term?) "illusion" of mainstreaming. The people who would be interested were always there. It was just the means of mass cultural communication and spread to reach them with whatever interest weren't. The main "stream" is now the main "lake" and everyone's jumped in. Things you think are "bad" can now reach enough "nerds" who think they're good to reach a modicum of popularity. I view this as maybe a good thing?
Of course, the other edge of this sword is that it allows folks who have unhealthy interests and ideas to find each other as well. That's why we've seen an uptick in radical ideologies of all sorts and things like the incel movement take such deep root. Those weren't part of the normalized zeitgeist before, but now that everything's in the pool and given equal cultural footing, it again creates a bubble of popularity that sometimes has an outsized impact.
We have decided that algorithms are the answer to this problem, and maybe that's a good answer. But I think we've also decided that commercial driven, ad laden algorithms are not the answer. So I'm not sure we have a good solution currently. Maybe if we spread some AI on it (and throw some ML and heck a few blockchains in for good measure) we can generate something useful.
Is it true that we don't have a monoculture, though?
The author argues that algorithms have reintroduced monoculture: there was a period before the year 2000 when we had a monoculture (because of the scarcity of information) and a period after 2012 when we had a monoculture (because of effective information-sorting algorithms). The kind of cultural fragmentation you're talking about only existed 2000-2012, or in what he calls the 'hipster era.'
Post-2012, 'nerdy' things like comic book movies and gaming streams are basically mainstream to the point of being inescapable. People who remember the previous 'pre-nerd' monoculture are primed to think of those things as niche and marginal interests, but they're really not.
The author argues that algorithms have reintroduced monoculture: there was a period before the year 2000 when we had a monoculture (because of the scarcity of information) and a period after 2012 when we had a monoculture (because of effective information-sorting algorithms). The kind of cultural fragmentation you're talking about only existed 2000-2012, or in what he calls the 'hipster era.'
Post-2012, 'nerdy' things like comic book movies and gaming streams are basically mainstream to the point of being inescapable. People who remember the previous 'pre-nerd' monoculture are primed to think of those things as niche and marginal interests, but they're really not.
I definitely could be wrong! I think there will always be cultural centers because people like gathering together (virtually or otherwise). Things like memes and TikTok trends create shared culture, but I don’t think we have a monoculture. The algorithms on these platforms create cultural centers but there are lots of them rather than a meta stream that everyone feeds off of. The vast difference between what I see on my TikTok feed and what my wife and her friends see on theirs is wild. They algorithms are like hipsters that into account things you like haha!
Take a tour around the popular subreddits to see if we have a fragmented culture. I’m often blown away how popular some niche subreddit that I’ve literally never heard of will be even though I’ve been on Reddit for 15+ years! The panoply of ideas and interests on there is super cool to see.
Take a tour around the popular subreddits to see if we have a fragmented culture. I’m often blown away how popular some niche subreddit that I’ve literally never heard of will be even though I’ve been on Reddit for 15+ years! The panoply of ideas and interests on there is super cool to see.
Nerds of the 90s grew up and became a nice (more often than not) affluent market. Industry shifted to accomodate for that. I for one, enjoy it while it lasts.
Because of this, a lot of cultural products made sure that the "nerds" felt the heroes of their own stories, making them cool in pop culture.
That being said, I always considered a crucial characteristic of a nerd the inability to interact fluently with the social environment, instead focusing their energy online or in very specific niches that shielded them from this social "anxiety".
This very much remains, cool kids do "cool" stuff and eloquently interact with their social environment. "Cool stuff" now is probably more "nerdy" than it was 20y ago but the divide is there, I think the author (and me probably) are too old to really see what "nerds" to today.
Because of this, a lot of cultural products made sure that the "nerds" felt the heroes of their own stories, making them cool in pop culture.
That being said, I always considered a crucial characteristic of a nerd the inability to interact fluently with the social environment, instead focusing their energy online or in very specific niches that shielded them from this social "anxiety".
This very much remains, cool kids do "cool" stuff and eloquently interact with their social environment. "Cool stuff" now is probably more "nerdy" than it was 20y ago but the divide is there, I think the author (and me probably) are too old to really see what "nerds" to today.
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I find the analysis flawed. In the article "Marvel is failing because they thought that most people were nerds: that mass audiences would actually want to delve deep into their joyless multiverse and slog through all its lore".
Marvel is failing for the simple reason that it has become "content" for an audience that doesn't exist instead of an entertaining movie/series for the masses. And anyone who has tried to point out that the audience doesn't exist is being called all the things that are bad.
Marvel is failing for the simple reason that it has become "content" for an audience that doesn't exist instead of an entertaining movie/series for the masses. And anyone who has tried to point out that the audience doesn't exist is being called all the things that are bad.
I have a feeling the same is going to happen with Star Wars films here soon.
To be honest, I think the level of effort that Star Wars (and ig now Disney) has put in to really expand the universe (and add more details to the same story with series' like Bad Batch or Kenobi) can be sufficient to satisfy the hunger of the true fans. Especially when compared to Marvel that basically runs the same characters / stories again in different universes as an excuse for lack of detailed writing....
But that being said I am not a fan of the token diversity quota characters being added...
It already happened! The new trilogy and the recent series had this happen to it, the Mandalorian the two first seasons where entertaining but they are back to failing to find an audience.
> soon
As a casual observer, I saw people being labelled as sexists basically the minute feedback and viewership numbers started dropping for the middle film in the new trilogy. And the same thing happened for the last one.
As a casual observer, I saw people being labelled as sexists basically the minute feedback and viewership numbers started dropping for the middle film in the new trilogy. And the same thing happened for the last one.
Geek culture is things like comic books, video games and Star Wars. Nerd culture is things like recreational mathematics, model trains, and editing Wikipedia.
I don’t like the term nerd, because when I was growing up it was a very hurtful epithet, but exactly this. There’s nothing inherently connecting liking math or computers, on the one hand, and super hero comics on the other. It was just an accident of history.
Exactly. A nerd is someone who implements emulators for extinct 70s minicomputers, or is deep into niche music. A "geek" (for lack of better word) is the target of this article.
Oddly I thought it was the exact opposite. Geeks are really into things that are considered uncool but are really useful, like computers and maths. Nerds are really into things that are uncool but not useful, like comics and video games. It's the latter that went mainstream because it's easy. Anyone can do it. But being a geek requires one to be a bit "special".
It used to have a lot more to do with time spent at the library. Nerds are bookish.
Now libraries have conference rooms (where you might play D&D) and computers and movies to check out. Invasion of the geeks!
Now libraries have conference rooms (where you might play D&D) and computers and movies to check out. Invasion of the geeks!
I believe there is no counter culture in the west anymore. It is mainstream to be subversive, and so there is little to no subversiveness left
This was already being talked about in the mid-naughties in "The Rebel Sell: How The Counter Culture Became Consumer Culture" by Heath and Potter. Had a big influence on me as a teenager.
There are so many ways to be subversive. But it’s becoming more and more socially costly to be subversive.
Can you give an example?
Well, planting a bomb or misgendering someone surely will get you in trouble in many places.
Look into the origin of The Sex Pistols some time: the "anti-consumerist" so-called punk band was literally created by a fashion label to sell clothes.
The process is called recuperation: under modern capitalism, the capitalist will not just sell you the rope to hang him with, he will also sell you the prop guillotine, the Che Guevara shirt and the music and movies that let you safely live out your fantasy from the comfort of your own home. It's impossible to create truly anti-capitalist media because anti-capitalist media has become just another product to consume. The machine will gleefully support you in raging against it as long as you do it in a way that contributes to it.
In the end, this is what killed hipster culture: if you want indie bands, the market will happily provide you with thousands of them, all "unique" but interchangeable. If you want "artisinal" products, the market will happily produce them at scale. By buying a product you directly contribute to its popularity and mass market appeal.
The process is called recuperation: under modern capitalism, the capitalist will not just sell you the rope to hang him with, he will also sell you the prop guillotine, the Che Guevara shirt and the music and movies that let you safely live out your fantasy from the comfort of your own home. It's impossible to create truly anti-capitalist media because anti-capitalist media has become just another product to consume. The machine will gleefully support you in raging against it as long as you do it in a way that contributes to it.
In the end, this is what killed hipster culture: if you want indie bands, the market will happily provide you with thousands of them, all "unique" but interchangeable. If you want "artisinal" products, the market will happily produce them at scale. By buying a product you directly contribute to its popularity and mass market appeal.
There's plenty of counter culture, it's just not being promoted by radio and TV anymore. Tell people proudly that you have stopped paying taxes and that they should too, and see how they react. Tell people you didn't take the vaccine or that you home school your children.
That's not counter culture, that's idiocy. That's like setting up your balls on fire. It will hurt.
Couldn't have asked for a better response to confirm what I said.
Unfortunately, as things like irreligion, tolerance for sexual minorities, or left-wing economics became more mainstream, it is now, among the youth, incredible as it may sound, counter-culture to be reactionary. A reverse 1960s of sorts.
That happened when the yuppies in the 1980s rebelled against their hippie parents and embraced Reaganomics. They made a whole sitcom about it (Family Ties.) Of course nowadays Alex P. Keaton would be an incel flogging NFTs and MAGA conspiracy theories and collecting Nazi memorabilia. History doesn't repeat but it does spiral.
I think counter-culture would maybe be the right-wing nationalist groups that have popped up everywhere. That's being subversive to the mainstream.
> If there is any one person who still tries to consider things by some measure of quality, it’s like a needle sticking sharp in their side
While Sam's articles are quite enjoyable to read, I'm not sure this argument holds. If nerds don't care about quality they wouldn't spend hours complaining about how bad the new Star Wars films are
While Sam's articles are quite enjoyable to read, I'm not sure this argument holds. If nerds don't care about quality they wouldn't spend hours complaining about how bad the new Star Wars films are
Many nerds don't really care about the outcome of the complaining/arguing, but merely uses their position as an excuse to connect with people, to have discussions with fellow human beings. Not wrong or right, just trying to fulfill a human need.
Exactly, it's like a person comparing the subtle taste of poly-saturated trans fats in a big mac and a quarterpounder with cheese. It's all slop, that's the point.
Insofar as nerdiness is considered to be gaming, that’s gone mainstream. But I don’t think most of the twitch gamers with the transparent cases and neon case lights have the same appreciation for that aesthetic as us LAN nerds did in the 00s. Like, we built those rigs to show them off in person with our friends. They were custom built by hand, each one unique. Now they are commoditized props, jewels in a pastel room meant for streaming over a webcam. They are tax write offs for professional twitch streamers.
Has something died in all that? Maybe. Honestly we transitioned to board games. The computer scene got too big, the games got too dumb, and we got too old. Board games still get us together, and they’re just as fun as star craft or enemy territory that we used to play back in the day.
Nerd culture is alive and well, it’s just different from when I was a kid.
Has something died in all that? Maybe. Honestly we transitioned to board games. The computer scene got too big, the games got too dumb, and we got too old. Board games still get us together, and they’re just as fun as star craft or enemy territory that we used to play back in the day.
Nerd culture is alive and well, it’s just different from when I was a kid.
Board games are definitely more interesting now, for the most part (with some exceptions...like I do think The Witness is more interesting than just about any board game I've played or designed).
Most of the big video games now are just movies that let you walk or drive around, jump on or climb things, and shoot or swing weapons periodically. Indie games have a bit more experimentation, but most still follow this formula, but with simpler graphics.
Board games still experiment with different and interesting mechanisms, like different takes on set collection, drafting, cooperative play, engine building, worker placement, auctions, logic and deduction, etc.
Most of the big video games now are just movies that let you walk or drive around, jump on or climb things, and shoot or swing weapons periodically. Indie games have a bit more experimentation, but most still follow this formula, but with simpler graphics.
Board games still experiment with different and interesting mechanisms, like different takes on set collection, drafting, cooperative play, engine building, worker placement, auctions, logic and deduction, etc.
Nerd culture has been mainstream since The Big Bang Theory; le geek c'est chic. D&D, Comic books, nerdy plastic-framed glasses, etc... are all "having a moment".
So is nerd culture dying? No, it's just being sold now, too. Nerds will never die, as witnessed by anyone who has ever played D&D with a "rules lawyer".
Nerds, the people, who are--according to my own mushy definition: socially awkward people who obsessively pursue a niche interest/hobby that is outside of the mainstream. If their hobby/interest is in the mainstream, they know all the lore, such that, if there is an argument to be had about some small detail, they will be prepared.
Legend has it, they are in their basements right at this very moment, studying, reading, preparing, for that argument about whether or not the DM was right about encumbrance...
So is nerd culture dying? No, it's just being sold now, too. Nerds will never die, as witnessed by anyone who has ever played D&D with a "rules lawyer".
Nerds, the people, who are--according to my own mushy definition: socially awkward people who obsessively pursue a niche interest/hobby that is outside of the mainstream. If their hobby/interest is in the mainstream, they know all the lore, such that, if there is an argument to be had about some small detail, they will be prepared.
Legend has it, they are in their basements right at this very moment, studying, reading, preparing, for that argument about whether or not the DM was right about encumbrance...
A plamipsest diatribe drenched in nihilistic snobbery, but very, very entertaining one.
Nerd and hacker culture aren't the same ... I think hacker culture is alive and well, albeit less so than in the past. Some posts here on HN give me hope - people are still breaking things and figuring out how stuff works under the hood, but nerd culture seems to have developed into rampant consumerism. The article touches on that a bit. It's prob a result of the 20-30 somethings of today being advertised to super heavily. Corporations realized that nerds have quite a bit of spending power, and with the rise of silicon valley/the internet, its become a big market.
First define something that doesn't exist. Then, say its dead. Voila!, now you're an astute critic of culture.
I never really liked the term "nerd". I always felt it was something used to denigrate people who had interest of passion about something. Maybe people started to fetishize it recently. But either way, can't people just let people enjoy things without classificaiton.
I never really liked the term "nerd". I always felt it was something used to denigrate people who had interest of passion about something. Maybe people started to fetishize it recently. But either way, can't people just let people enjoy things without classificaiton.
When I think of nerd culture, I think of people "geeking out" over Star Trek, videogames, tabletop games, etc. Basically, I think of comic book guy from the Simpsons. During my lifetime, a lot of it was saturated with pretension, self-aware or otherwise; it was always kind of a minstrel show. I would agree that many elements of it have gone mainstream.
Pretentious . . . like a minstrel show? Do tell, Mr. Interlocutor!
Yes and good riddance.
There was never such a thing as "nerd culture". It was always exclusionary and toxic, pretending to exist in rebellion against the mainstream while perpetuating the same stereotypes. It was also always defined by consumerism and consumption, just as a "niche" (but still fed by the same large corporations as the mainstream) no different from "artisanal" hipster goods or "underground" grunge merchandise.
Nerds have always existed and will continue to exist. "Nerd culture" isn't necessary for that. The Marvel movies weren't a turning point, the rise of the Internet was. Widespread access to the Internet allowed various fandoms to expand, mutate and merge (especially in fanfic and on sites like Tumblr), it also allowed people to find peers in their specific special interest communities rather than having to vaguely seek out "other nerds" and hope they're compatible.
People like to posture about "real nerds" versus "geek chic poseurs" but the distinction is arbitrary. Yes, someone wearing a Nirvana shirt who never even heard of the band but likes the grunge aesthetic can easily be dismissed as a "poseur" but most often that distinction just exists to arbitrarily exclude people just as passionate who don't fit your biases. Heck, for most of the 80s and 90s you could have believed women were biologically incapable of being nerds as even that girl wearing glasses and a nerd shirt who could recite every Ferengi rule of acquisition and speak fluent Klingon was clearly just a "poseur", especially if she was conventionally attractive.
On a related note I think we've also simply culturally come to understand that the "jock vs nerd" binary is really more of a spectrum and not even a good fit for most people. At least in programming the idea was on its last breath when people ironically (and then unironically) adopted the gymrat "brogrammer" aesthetic, which was luckily shortlived but clearly an act of rebellion against and recuperation of "jock" culture. We've also become more aware that neurodivergence is not simply a lifestyle choice even when it may manifest as such, whereas nerd culture would often ("ironically") replicate the same ableism neurodivergent nerds were subjected to in the mainstream.
So in another way, no, nerd "culture" isn't dying, you're just getting old and out of touch.
There was never such a thing as "nerd culture". It was always exclusionary and toxic, pretending to exist in rebellion against the mainstream while perpetuating the same stereotypes. It was also always defined by consumerism and consumption, just as a "niche" (but still fed by the same large corporations as the mainstream) no different from "artisanal" hipster goods or "underground" grunge merchandise.
Nerds have always existed and will continue to exist. "Nerd culture" isn't necessary for that. The Marvel movies weren't a turning point, the rise of the Internet was. Widespread access to the Internet allowed various fandoms to expand, mutate and merge (especially in fanfic and on sites like Tumblr), it also allowed people to find peers in their specific special interest communities rather than having to vaguely seek out "other nerds" and hope they're compatible.
People like to posture about "real nerds" versus "geek chic poseurs" but the distinction is arbitrary. Yes, someone wearing a Nirvana shirt who never even heard of the band but likes the grunge aesthetic can easily be dismissed as a "poseur" but most often that distinction just exists to arbitrarily exclude people just as passionate who don't fit your biases. Heck, for most of the 80s and 90s you could have believed women were biologically incapable of being nerds as even that girl wearing glasses and a nerd shirt who could recite every Ferengi rule of acquisition and speak fluent Klingon was clearly just a "poseur", especially if she was conventionally attractive.
On a related note I think we've also simply culturally come to understand that the "jock vs nerd" binary is really more of a spectrum and not even a good fit for most people. At least in programming the idea was on its last breath when people ironically (and then unironically) adopted the gymrat "brogrammer" aesthetic, which was luckily shortlived but clearly an act of rebellion against and recuperation of "jock" culture. We've also become more aware that neurodivergence is not simply a lifestyle choice even when it may manifest as such, whereas nerd culture would often ("ironically") replicate the same ableism neurodivergent nerds were subjected to in the mainstream.
So in another way, no, nerd "culture" isn't dying, you're just getting old and out of touch.
I recently removed Reddit, Imgur, Twitter from my life and realized there is so much more interesting and edgier content out there.
Hm, dare I ask what you mean?
I also removed those things from my life but it has just made more time for active participation in some of the things I do. I found I had essentially replaced actively nerding out on stuff with passively viewing streams of nerd"ish" stuff.
I also removed those things from my life but it has just made more time for active participation in some of the things I do. I found I had essentially replaced actively nerding out on stuff with passively viewing streams of nerd"ish" stuff.
Such as?
Where
wha?
so nerds are enthusiastic detail oriented people, but for bad stuff, but the same attitude toward good stuff is not nerdy?
or something.
'dreck' indeed.
so nerds are enthusiastic detail oriented people, but for bad stuff, but the same attitude toward good stuff is not nerdy?
or something.
'dreck' indeed.
Yeah I love applying nerd to people who think they aren't nerds. Car nerds, gym nerds, bike nerds, wine nerds, beer nerds etc. Passion and depth is all it takes to nerd out on something in my opinion.
Wait, hipsters have...gone? They missed my town
Well, I definitely lost interest in all the superhero movies ages ago.
I'm just sitting here curating a list of hundreds of 80s songs, wondering why I can't get all the videos to play on my TV like my own custom MTV playlist.
Something definitely seems wrong with popular culture these days, but I'm not going to be able to help you sort it out...
I'm just sitting here curating a list of hundreds of 80s songs, wondering why I can't get all the videos to play on my TV like my own custom MTV playlist.
Something definitely seems wrong with popular culture these days, but I'm not going to be able to help you sort it out...
The new nerds are the furries posting NSFW inflation art when not writing code, and the transgender extreme Buddhist who writes long essays about attaining the jhanas on her personal blog while writing the code you rely on. Because the stereotypical white western male nerd became completely mainstream and normal
I see overlong thinkpieces are not dying off and that humble-braggadocio is alive and kicking
I know, right? This line in particular got stuck out at me:
> They are mortally offended by the suggestion that Marvel might be somehow less good than Chris Marker, or that K-pop might be worse than Rimsky-Korasov.
Never heard of Chris Marker or Rimsky-Korasov, had to look those up. Chris Marker looks like an indie French filmmaker who 60 years ago made a 27 minute time travel film called La Jetée, using only still photographs, that William Gibson apparently considered one of his greatest influences. So yeah, this sounds like something that most mainstream people wouldn't be aware of or into and exactly the type of thing a film nerd or film hipster (who he said in the opening paragraphs were all killed because of how annoying they are) would be into.
And Rimsky-Korasov is a Russian classical music composer who's been dead for over 100 years. Someone that only a music nerd would probably be aware of nowadays, or go see a concert for.
If he didn't want to be such a hipster about it, he could have used like Martin Scorsese or Stanley Kubrick and Mozart or Bach or even Debussy or something, a name most people would probably recognize, instead of these less recognizable names, especially in an article where he's making fun of nerds for being into obscure shit (while "their" movies have been dominating the box office for well over a decade at this point).
I'm not trying to defend Marvel here either. I don't think they're the best movies ever made (I thought Everything Everywhere All At Once was the best movie I've seen since Parasite, and considering it pretty much swept the Oscars this year, and Parasite did a few years before that, critics seem to agree with me there).
Another quote that stuck out:
> The culture we produce on Planet Nerd has nothing to do with desire whatsoever. Everything is sterile, mercilessly unsexy; no eroticism, not even visual pleasure.... Nerd culture, meanwhile, is basically quite boring to consume. Instead of the sadistic fantasy of being a superhero, doing fantastic things that ordinary people don’t get to do, the Marvel movies are about nothing more than themselves.
Sounds like someone needs to watch The Boys or Invincible. You'll get your sadistic superhero power fantasy there. (I mean, just watch The Boys episode about 'Herogasm').
Marvel can't do that because it has to get parents to take their children to see them to make all the money they want to make. You don't see sadistic power fantasies about being a wizard in Harry Potter either, or overly sensual things with any Disney movie, barring the hidden 'SEX' in flower petals in Lion King.
> They are mortally offended by the suggestion that Marvel might be somehow less good than Chris Marker, or that K-pop might be worse than Rimsky-Korasov.
Never heard of Chris Marker or Rimsky-Korasov, had to look those up. Chris Marker looks like an indie French filmmaker who 60 years ago made a 27 minute time travel film called La Jetée, using only still photographs, that William Gibson apparently considered one of his greatest influences. So yeah, this sounds like something that most mainstream people wouldn't be aware of or into and exactly the type of thing a film nerd or film hipster (who he said in the opening paragraphs were all killed because of how annoying they are) would be into.
And Rimsky-Korasov is a Russian classical music composer who's been dead for over 100 years. Someone that only a music nerd would probably be aware of nowadays, or go see a concert for.
If he didn't want to be such a hipster about it, he could have used like Martin Scorsese or Stanley Kubrick and Mozart or Bach or even Debussy or something, a name most people would probably recognize, instead of these less recognizable names, especially in an article where he's making fun of nerds for being into obscure shit (while "their" movies have been dominating the box office for well over a decade at this point).
I'm not trying to defend Marvel here either. I don't think they're the best movies ever made (I thought Everything Everywhere All At Once was the best movie I've seen since Parasite, and considering it pretty much swept the Oscars this year, and Parasite did a few years before that, critics seem to agree with me there).
Another quote that stuck out:
> The culture we produce on Planet Nerd has nothing to do with desire whatsoever. Everything is sterile, mercilessly unsexy; no eroticism, not even visual pleasure.... Nerd culture, meanwhile, is basically quite boring to consume. Instead of the sadistic fantasy of being a superhero, doing fantastic things that ordinary people don’t get to do, the Marvel movies are about nothing more than themselves.
Sounds like someone needs to watch The Boys or Invincible. You'll get your sadistic superhero power fantasy there. (I mean, just watch The Boys episode about 'Herogasm').
Marvel can't do that because it has to get parents to take their children to see them to make all the money they want to make. You don't see sadistic power fantasies about being a wizard in Harry Potter either, or overly sensual things with any Disney movie, barring the hidden 'SEX' in flower petals in Lion King.
Increasingly I think we are over-connected. I'm not sure human beings are meant to be voicing their opinions with hundreds or thousands of people constantly. But it is addictive enough to be a blatant hypocrite.
It died when it became mainstream.
Nerd culture nowadays is horribly lame. When I was a kid I loved being a nerd and finding people who shared my hobbies. Now I avoid talking about them.
Nerd culture nowadays is horribly lame. When I was a kid I loved being a nerd and finding people who shared my hobbies. Now I avoid talking about them.
Frat star whining about nerds liking things, and its front page of hacker news. Did the upvoters have a little too much unsweetened 30 proof cranberry juice?
I don't think most frat boys are in the habit of quoting Adorno. And with this particular author, it's not always advisable to take everything at face value...
I don't know anything about this particular author, and it's a good guess that most HN readers don't either.
I gather from your comment that the article is performative bullshit, and it is up to the reader to decide which parts are fiction, which parts are lies presented as facts, which parts are opinions that the author doesn't actually hold, and which parts they actually believe?
That kind of thing can work if the author is writing to some insular audience who understands that it is bullshit. But it will not make for a good discussion when posted to a general audience. How can you have a discussion about anything except the unbearable style, if the text is not to be taken at face value?
I gather from your comment that the article is performative bullshit, and it is up to the reader to decide which parts are fiction, which parts are lies presented as facts, which parts are opinions that the author doesn't actually hold, and which parts they actually believe?
That kind of thing can work if the author is writing to some insular audience who understands that it is bullshit. But it will not make for a good discussion when posted to a general audience. How can you have a discussion about anything except the unbearable style, if the text is not to be taken at face value?
I think nerd simply means "has interests".
A wonderful article, all the more so because I disagree with a lot of it.
It's sort of like rap music. In a way, the more popular bits have essentially become a part of the commodified dominant monoculture, insofar as we still have a monoculture left.
On the other hand, the niche has become significantly more niche after a messy de facto divorce from the 'poppy' parts of rap/nerd culture. The barrier to entry to these subcultures in a way are higher than ever, because the monoculture bits capture and hold the vast majority of people with a more casual interest.
This natural schism and reification that develops is something I think David Chapman's "Geeks, MOPs, and sociopaths"[1] fails to identify, but we have the advantage of over a decade of evolution and hindsight since it was written.
[1] https://meaningness.com/geeks-mops-sociopaths
On the other hand, the niche has become significantly more niche after a messy de facto divorce from the 'poppy' parts of rap/nerd culture. The barrier to entry to these subcultures in a way are higher than ever, because the monoculture bits capture and hold the vast majority of people with a more casual interest.
This natural schism and reification that develops is something I think David Chapman's "Geeks, MOPs, and sociopaths"[1] fails to identify, but we have the advantage of over a decade of evolution and hindsight since it was written.
[1] https://meaningness.com/geeks-mops-sociopaths
actual title: All the nerds are dead
Maybe looking into the transhumanism future placed upon us the real hipster and nerds will be born. The fake ones will perish into AI driven oblivion.
Briefly, he's saying that the explosion in information availability has resulted in a form of hyper-aestheticism he associates with "hipsters", based on an idea that individuals with particularly "good taste" could sort through it all and popularise the good stuff, followed, after that failed and hipsterism came to be seen as unoriginal and conformist, by a surrender to corporate media franchises and manufactured culture, which he associates with "nerds". He claims this too is now failing and bleakly attempts to guess what might come next.
I think it's a huge oversimplification and I don't think "nerd" is a good term to use for what he's describing, but it's entertaining and would be fun to discuss if HN were capable of that.