US adult cigarette smoking rate hits new all-time low(apnews.com)
apnews.com
US adult cigarette smoking rate hits new all-time low
https://apnews.com/article/how-many-people-smoke-us-64987fe2b7bf764c64d4594e5b02e6ea
84 comments
>At the time a very famous statistician (Fischer?) maintained that we couldn't actually tell whether it was causal or not.
It was Fisher, here's a fantastic summary of the whole episode: https://priceonomics.com/why-the-father-of-modern-statistics...
My statistics professor showed us gruesome pictures of what was done in the 70s due to lack of conclusive evidence that smoking causes cancer. They forced dogs to smoke. https://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2012/may/20/the...
Then monkeys. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6782600/
Now that we have conclusive evidence that smoking causes lung cancer, have we stopped ? Here's a zoo in China that forces a baby monkey to smoke in an apparent attempt to dissuade future smokers. https://metro.co.uk/2021/11/05/china-baby-monkey-forced-to-s...
It was Fisher, here's a fantastic summary of the whole episode: https://priceonomics.com/why-the-father-of-modern-statistics...
My statistics professor showed us gruesome pictures of what was done in the 70s due to lack of conclusive evidence that smoking causes cancer. They forced dogs to smoke. https://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2012/may/20/the...
Then monkeys. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6782600/
Now that we have conclusive evidence that smoking causes lung cancer, have we stopped ? Here's a zoo in China that forces a baby monkey to smoke in an apparent attempt to dissuade future smokers. https://metro.co.uk/2021/11/05/china-baby-monkey-forced-to-s...
20 years ago I'd come out of my favorite club and could rub mud from my face. Good times (the age, not the mud).
Fantastic news. Not so great about the vaping increase. I believe that prohibition is not the way to go at all here.
Former 25+ cigarette a day smoker. It is an addiction and it may start in fun or on a lark, but it pervaded all areas of my life. Being in an airport for a layover and having to leave to smoke and come back through security is a shitty feeling. Running out of - or even running low on - cigarettes regularly created panic in me. I avoided many social activities and interactions because I didn’t want to have to either out myself as a smelly, disgusting smoker or else deprive myself for hours or more at a stretch. And the price has steadily gone up.
I did try vaping for a time and it was likely a better alternative than cigarettes. But the best, speaking from personal experience, is not having any dependency on nicotine at all. The psychological effects were so devastating for me. And as the article says, so many people die or have died of smoking related diseases. And it is a slow, drawn out process. It is an incredible shame and I am very happy that it is affecting a smaller portion of people than ever.
Former 25+ cigarette a day smoker. It is an addiction and it may start in fun or on a lark, but it pervaded all areas of my life. Being in an airport for a layover and having to leave to smoke and come back through security is a shitty feeling. Running out of - or even running low on - cigarettes regularly created panic in me. I avoided many social activities and interactions because I didn’t want to have to either out myself as a smelly, disgusting smoker or else deprive myself for hours or more at a stretch. And the price has steadily gone up.
I did try vaping for a time and it was likely a better alternative than cigarettes. But the best, speaking from personal experience, is not having any dependency on nicotine at all. The psychological effects were so devastating for me. And as the article says, so many people die or have died of smoking related diseases. And it is a slow, drawn out process. It is an incredible shame and I am very happy that it is affecting a smaller portion of people than ever.
Stopping smoking was one of the best decisions I ever made. I didn't need a gimmick, I didn't need to vape, I didn't need patches, I needed to admit that willpower was what I had lacked in the past and that I wanted better health for my family.
If you genuinely want to quit, you can do it if you learn self-discipline. Say no to social smoking, say no to just another pack, nip it in the bud today if that's what you want for yourself.
Yes, it can be psychological torture in the short-term to not take the easy route, but that's why you started in the first place. In the long-term, your quality of life will be far higher, and you'll be better off for it financially. Take the money you saved from not smoking and invest it in your own health and that of your family.
If you genuinely want to quit, you can do it if you learn self-discipline. Say no to social smoking, say no to just another pack, nip it in the bud today if that's what you want for yourself.
Yes, it can be psychological torture in the short-term to not take the easy route, but that's why you started in the first place. In the long-term, your quality of life will be far higher, and you'll be better off for it financially. Take the money you saved from not smoking and invest it in your own health and that of your family.
Allen Carr helped me - rather his book. Cold Turkey. No withdrawal symptoms, urges - nothing. It just made smoking seem so illogical (basically we smoke to feel "normal" again, as we are trying to fix nicotine withdrawal). The book did not use health scare tactics, hypnosis, or any of that. I highly recommend his book to anyone who wants to quit.
Couldn't find the book, do you have an ISBN or link for it? Would love to gift it to someone I know who loves to read but equally loves to smoke and would like to stop.
Thank you!
Ah sorry, yes that's the one. They should take their time with it, and let the information soak in.
“You might remember me from such self-help videos as ‘Get Confident, Stupid!’”
This is useless advice that basically says “I quit smoking by simply not smoking any more”.
This is useless advice that basically says “I quit smoking by simply not smoking any more”.
I disagree. I think a lot of people try various gimmicks and tactics without staring themselves in the mirror and deciding that they actually want to for themselves.
Exactly. The gimmicks are a compromise. It's just switching the medium you're getting your fix from. Any compromise becomes more compromises where you've supposedly done better by switching to x, but you still haven't quit, and like with vaping, may actually be worse for you, and has become a hobby with all the different odds and sods to modify your vaping setup with.
The intent to quit is something you have to be very honest with yourself over.
I say this with countless former smokers in the family, and homeless levels of alcoholism on my partner's side of the family. People can live through hell on the street for decades, people can try and help them too in all kinds of ways from treatment to money to a job, but if they don't want it for themselves then nothing is changing in the long-term. "It's just one drink". Life down the toilet once again, they never actually quit.
And yes, they eventually got off the street after almost twenty years, but it took them to genuinely care about themselves and want better.
The intent to quit is something you have to be very honest with yourself over.
I say this with countless former smokers in the family, and homeless levels of alcoholism on my partner's side of the family. People can live through hell on the street for decades, people can try and help them too in all kinds of ways from treatment to money to a job, but if they don't want it for themselves then nothing is changing in the long-term. "It's just one drink". Life down the toilet once again, they never actually quit.
And yes, they eventually got off the street after almost twenty years, but it took them to genuinely care about themselves and want better.
How is it useless? If I acknowledge that placebo gimmickery didn't stop me smoking, but just powering on through withdrawal and not giving in to the easy instant gratification, how is that bad advice? It isn't like alcohol where it might actually cause you brain damage to suddenly stop.
It's the same as telling a person with a lifelong heroin addiction to just stop using heroin.
Heroin is nothing like cigarettes, don't conflate them. Keep in mind I've had family in living facilities for months at a time over addiction.
"Nicotine has been proven to be as addictive as cocaine and heroin and may even be more addictive."
https://www.ucsfhealth.org/conditions/nicotine-dependence
https://www.ucsfhealth.org/conditions/nicotine-dependence
People generally don't go to living facilities for cigarettes, nor sell themselves or everything they own or end up on the street jacking off strangers because of cigarettes though.
I don't disagree with you, but the context was telling people to "just quit smoking," which is pretty silly advice because of how addictive it is. Those same people probably wouldn't seriously say, "just quit heroin."
Something can be more addictive while causing less withdrawal symptoms.
How did you learn self-discipline?
I'm not a smoker, just curious.
I'm not a smoker, just curious.
A combination of things.
As a person, I always look for the most efficient and frictionless way to achieve something, the "path of least resistance", including not feeling like physical or psychological trash (read "instant gratification"). That's a character trait and a character flaw.
Trusting in the methodology and idea that "yes, this feels like shit right now, but countless millions of people get through this stage of withdrawal, and they go on to live great lives where they don't feel like crap anymore and instead feel better than when they smoked". When you're down in that ditch, not just quitting, but because your life is sub-par in various ways, and smoking is something you can rely on to make you feel better, it's hard to just leave it alone, and it's difficult to trust that others are right when you have a cynical outlook on the world and it feels like people frequently misguide you and others, so why would it be any different this time? That's a bad perspective. Apply logic and reasoning. Wrestle with it. Rationality.
People would invite me outside for a smoke over a pint, or after achieving something, or after a difficult conversation. I "rewarded" myself with a cancer stick for doing something on the project management system, all kinds of weird little things you do to justify a smoke "because I achieved x and I should be rewarded for x", but the reality is that you were rewarded for x anyway, and x was kind of fun, that's why you do it in the first place, but your worldview revolves around getting the next nicotine fix.
It isn't even just the nicotine. It's "you" time. It's a ritual. It's time to decompress mentally and not look at a screen, do something with your hands that isn't work-related, and "indulge".
But it's all bollocks. There's nothing positive or of substance in smoking. It's all in the head of the smoker. They're hooked.
Sometimes it has meant avoiding certain situations with some people, e.g., I don't go to the pub, or bars. In fact, I don't drink anymore either. Been sober ~7 years now.
After a year or so of saying "no, I won't fucking do that to myself and to my family", suddenly, you just don't want a drink, you just don't want a cigarette. That's not to say that sometimes in a stressful situation I don't reminisce and go "oh, a cigarette would make me feel so much better right now", of course, that happens, then the fantasy passes, and I'm still at my desk, I haven't given in.
To anyone wanting to quit and is serious; get rid of your lighters, including the neat-looking Zippo you like to fidget with, and all the other paraphernalia. Get rid of your ash trays. Get rid of your rolling papers, filters, rolling machine (if you own one). If you're going to quit, why will you need any of it?
Don't replace it with eating junk food. Don't replace it with a cheeky glass of wine. If you have struggled with one kind of addiction, you will struggle with another. The self-discipline is being honest with yourself and reigning the monkey on your shoulder in.
And don't justify "just one smoke" with because it's a holiday or you're on vacation.
As a person, I always look for the most efficient and frictionless way to achieve something, the "path of least resistance", including not feeling like physical or psychological trash (read "instant gratification"). That's a character trait and a character flaw.
Trusting in the methodology and idea that "yes, this feels like shit right now, but countless millions of people get through this stage of withdrawal, and they go on to live great lives where they don't feel like crap anymore and instead feel better than when they smoked". When you're down in that ditch, not just quitting, but because your life is sub-par in various ways, and smoking is something you can rely on to make you feel better, it's hard to just leave it alone, and it's difficult to trust that others are right when you have a cynical outlook on the world and it feels like people frequently misguide you and others, so why would it be any different this time? That's a bad perspective. Apply logic and reasoning. Wrestle with it. Rationality.
People would invite me outside for a smoke over a pint, or after achieving something, or after a difficult conversation. I "rewarded" myself with a cancer stick for doing something on the project management system, all kinds of weird little things you do to justify a smoke "because I achieved x and I should be rewarded for x", but the reality is that you were rewarded for x anyway, and x was kind of fun, that's why you do it in the first place, but your worldview revolves around getting the next nicotine fix.
It isn't even just the nicotine. It's "you" time. It's a ritual. It's time to decompress mentally and not look at a screen, do something with your hands that isn't work-related, and "indulge".
But it's all bollocks. There's nothing positive or of substance in smoking. It's all in the head of the smoker. They're hooked.
Sometimes it has meant avoiding certain situations with some people, e.g., I don't go to the pub, or bars. In fact, I don't drink anymore either. Been sober ~7 years now.
After a year or so of saying "no, I won't fucking do that to myself and to my family", suddenly, you just don't want a drink, you just don't want a cigarette. That's not to say that sometimes in a stressful situation I don't reminisce and go "oh, a cigarette would make me feel so much better right now", of course, that happens, then the fantasy passes, and I'm still at my desk, I haven't given in.
To anyone wanting to quit and is serious; get rid of your lighters, including the neat-looking Zippo you like to fidget with, and all the other paraphernalia. Get rid of your ash trays. Get rid of your rolling papers, filters, rolling machine (if you own one). If you're going to quit, why will you need any of it?
Don't replace it with eating junk food. Don't replace it with a cheeky glass of wine. If you have struggled with one kind of addiction, you will struggle with another. The self-discipline is being honest with yourself and reigning the monkey on your shoulder in.
And don't justify "just one smoke" with because it's a holiday or you're on vacation.
Thanks for sharing.
Do you see willpower (self-discipline? are these equivalent to you?) as a finite resource similar to muscular exertion? It seems easy enough to make statements such as, "Don't replace smoking with eating junk food." but, if you do view willpower as finite, your remark doesn't do much to address how willpower is trained and grown. It just implies that a person should find a way to have sufficient willpower.
I think I see willpower similar to putting on muscle mass. You need to track where you're at, consistently overload yourself but only slightly, and incorporate rest days to fully recuperate.
Do you see willpower (self-discipline? are these equivalent to you?) as a finite resource similar to muscular exertion? It seems easy enough to make statements such as, "Don't replace smoking with eating junk food." but, if you do view willpower as finite, your remark doesn't do much to address how willpower is trained and grown. It just implies that a person should find a way to have sufficient willpower.
I think I see willpower similar to putting on muscle mass. You need to track where you're at, consistently overload yourself but only slightly, and incorporate rest days to fully recuperate.
One of the things you hear a lot of between accountability partners (look it up if you are unfamiliar) is the phrase "stay strong" and similar stuff like "stay solid". That really sums it up in a very nuanced way. It's not giving in, it's doing something that takes mental strength, and yes, it may take building that mental "muscle".
I also see it as being primarily about intent, which forms the metaphorical foundation of that muscle. The "skeleton".
E.g., for any smoker reading, you apparently want to quit smoking. Why? Are you sure that's why? Do you actually want that for yourself yet, or is that peer pressure? Do you actually care? Why? Why not?
It's equally about living with consequence.
E.g., if you give in, you'll feel better for a short time, but you are back at square one to getting over the problem, and all your previous efforts are all for nothing. You failed, you wasted time and energy and will need to go through feeling like crap all over again, but you could have just said "no" and held out and never need to feel this crap again.
For some people, cold turkey is the only way. For others, it needs to be gradual, but for a lot of people, they don't actually need gradual, it's kidding themselves they're quitting and doing something about the problem, and in turn kidding others. I'd say in most cases, the only way you're going to get through it is cold turkey, period, and just ride out the shitty feeling, it's got to happen at some point, may as well be now if you're serious.
The "rest days" are not uncommonly complete relapses in addiction for most people. The reward is not smoking, the reward isn't a compromise of smoking now and then or having a glass of wine instead. This is why I say intent is everything. The "skeleton" you're applying that "muscle" to will get crushed if the intent isn't solid.
It's a very interesting topic of discussion to be honest. That smoking has a physiological and sociological impact makes it fascinating in how it's solved.
To anybody who doesn't smoke but is considering it, really, don't. All fun and games until you're hooked, and you will be.
I also see it as being primarily about intent, which forms the metaphorical foundation of that muscle. The "skeleton".
E.g., for any smoker reading, you apparently want to quit smoking. Why? Are you sure that's why? Do you actually want that for yourself yet, or is that peer pressure? Do you actually care? Why? Why not?
It's equally about living with consequence.
E.g., if you give in, you'll feel better for a short time, but you are back at square one to getting over the problem, and all your previous efforts are all for nothing. You failed, you wasted time and energy and will need to go through feeling like crap all over again, but you could have just said "no" and held out and never need to feel this crap again.
For some people, cold turkey is the only way. For others, it needs to be gradual, but for a lot of people, they don't actually need gradual, it's kidding themselves they're quitting and doing something about the problem, and in turn kidding others. I'd say in most cases, the only way you're going to get through it is cold turkey, period, and just ride out the shitty feeling, it's got to happen at some point, may as well be now if you're serious.
The "rest days" are not uncommonly complete relapses in addiction for most people. The reward is not smoking, the reward isn't a compromise of smoking now and then or having a glass of wine instead. This is why I say intent is everything. The "skeleton" you're applying that "muscle" to will get crushed if the intent isn't solid.
It's a very interesting topic of discussion to be honest. That smoking has a physiological and sociological impact makes it fascinating in how it's solved.
To anybody who doesn't smoke but is considering it, really, don't. All fun and games until you're hooked, and you will be.
What an interesting cultural transition to live through. Smoking was omnipresent. Already I am having to provide background to younger folks on automotive cigarette lighters and ashtrays. Along with promotional paper matchbooks.
I have memories from being a kid sitting in hospital lobbies with people around me smoking.
Honestly how did that ever even work? Ostensibly you had situations like people smoking while patients were wheeled around with oxygen? Of course back then the insulation was asbestos so maybe nobody worried about fires!
Honestly how did that ever even work? Ostensibly you had situations like people smoking while patients were wheeled around with oxygen? Of course back then the insulation was asbestos so maybe nobody worried about fires!
Smoking on airliners was always the craziest accommodation for mass addiction.
People were just hotter back then.
Me sitting in the train for 6 hours every adult is smoking, same for restaurants etc
Me sitting in the train for 6 hours every adult is smoking, same for restaurants etc
Cigarettes are obviously an awful way to deliver nicotine, but I've failed to find any science showing that nicotine is any worse than caffeine. In fact, its shorter elimination half-life makes it far less disruptive to sleep. Are we throwing the baby out with the bathwater?
Gwern on the subject: https://gwern.net/nicotine
Gwern on the subject: https://gwern.net/nicotine
The difference is that breaking a caffeine addiction is feeling like shit for 2-3 days. And then you're done.
Breaking a nicotine addiction is something most people struggle with for years.
Breaking a nicotine addiction is something most people struggle with for years.
If you read OPs article, they imply that a lot of cigarettes addictive quality is due to the MAO inhibitors, not the nicotine
I think he meant in regards to the health effects of it, not specifically the brutality of the addition. I finally got off cigarettes with vapes and Juul was the only one that worked for me. I smoked since I was around 13.
I personally would consider the addiction part of the health effects. Particularly in the lower income population who can struggle with keeping their addiction fed. For us tech professionals, keeping an addiction fed is not an issue.
The Gwern article posted earlier is more about the benefits of nicotine, but does note that nicotine is potentially more disruptive than caffeine: "we will want to be more careful with the nicotine than with modafinil or caffeine, where the main consequence of carelessness is tolerance rendering the stimulant useless or messing up our sleep for a few days."
Also note that the article specifically calls out that vaping is an issue, and the author is only comfortable with the use of nicotine gum.
It mainly points out that if you are extremely careful with the addictive properties, it's a decent drug. But no, I don't think we're throwing the baby out with the bathwater because the lack of studies on the topic of vaping, and the potential of saddling you with a difficult to shake addiction.
The Gwern article posted earlier is more about the benefits of nicotine, but does note that nicotine is potentially more disruptive than caffeine: "we will want to be more careful with the nicotine than with modafinil or caffeine, where the main consequence of carelessness is tolerance rendering the stimulant useless or messing up our sleep for a few days."
Also note that the article specifically calls out that vaping is an issue, and the author is only comfortable with the use of nicotine gum.
It mainly points out that if you are extremely careful with the addictive properties, it's a decent drug. But no, I don't think we're throwing the baby out with the bathwater because the lack of studies on the topic of vaping, and the potential of saddling you with a difficult to shake addiction.
I want to give my perspective on smoking/vaping that is purely from my own experiences. It's unlikely many agree with me, but I wanted to share my thoughts as someone who smoked and vaped and has since quit.
To provide context, I started smoking before later finding vapes. I regularly switched between the two throughout the day - depending on the context. For a period of time I smoked four packs a day and vaped 50mg nicsalt in between that.
Others have said that quitting is a matter of will, and that things like patches or vapes are ineffective gimmicks. I disagree with this notion, and the logic behind it. I used patches to quit, and they were very effective. I also believe that we have to accept a lot of people aren't at the right place to quit smoking entirely.
Vaping is a much better alternative to smoking tobacco. It does not have tar, monoxide, or any other chemicals. It is three chemicals - VG, PG, and Nicotine. If you are a person who smokes a pack a day, switching to vapes will still add time onto your life.
Yes, quitting entirely is still the best outcome. But are we really gonna tell people not to bother minimizing risk just because they arent ready to quit entirely? It's arrogant, in my opinion.
The US in particular vilifies vaping to a greater extent than European nations. I think this is likely because Europe still has a strong smoking culture, but it also shows that they understand there is still a benefit to risk mitigation.
We need to stop pretending like there is a one and done strategy to quitting. Smoking rate decreasing and vape usage increasing are not exclusive outcomes. These are people on a journey - and we should encourage them along the way.
To provide context, I started smoking before later finding vapes. I regularly switched between the two throughout the day - depending on the context. For a period of time I smoked four packs a day and vaped 50mg nicsalt in between that.
Others have said that quitting is a matter of will, and that things like patches or vapes are ineffective gimmicks. I disagree with this notion, and the logic behind it. I used patches to quit, and they were very effective. I also believe that we have to accept a lot of people aren't at the right place to quit smoking entirely.
Vaping is a much better alternative to smoking tobacco. It does not have tar, monoxide, or any other chemicals. It is three chemicals - VG, PG, and Nicotine. If you are a person who smokes a pack a day, switching to vapes will still add time onto your life.
Yes, quitting entirely is still the best outcome. But are we really gonna tell people not to bother minimizing risk just because they arent ready to quit entirely? It's arrogant, in my opinion.
The US in particular vilifies vaping to a greater extent than European nations. I think this is likely because Europe still has a strong smoking culture, but it also shows that they understand there is still a benefit to risk mitigation.
We need to stop pretending like there is a one and done strategy to quitting. Smoking rate decreasing and vape usage increasing are not exclusive outcomes. These are people on a journey - and we should encourage them along the way.
Here in the Netherlands, statistics are mostly about older people smoking (with all kinds of education) and younger people that have less high education. To say it in a rude way, only old and dumb people. I do think it is progress.
Recently, on a Saturday evening, I passed by two young girls. One said to the other, a bit disgruntled, "I will only fake smoke tonight, I will not smoke for real anymore". Fake smoking here means a real cigarette, but not inhaling. Which ofcourse looks a bit silly.
Strange thing though, advertisements about smoking were always about being independent and tough/rebel. Rebel against your parents ofcourse. But independent? Naah... Starting with smoking is more about giving in to social pressure. A few tough people in your social group start smoking, and telling the others to also start smoking, otherwise they are not tough and independent. I do hope we get more people who can say no and not give in to that social pressure. In the end, smoking simply signals that you give in to social pressure, very unlike the advertisements tell you.
Recently, on a Saturday evening, I passed by two young girls. One said to the other, a bit disgruntled, "I will only fake smoke tonight, I will not smoke for real anymore". Fake smoking here means a real cigarette, but not inhaling. Which ofcourse looks a bit silly.
Strange thing though, advertisements about smoking were always about being independent and tough/rebel. Rebel against your parents ofcourse. But independent? Naah... Starting with smoking is more about giving in to social pressure. A few tough people in your social group start smoking, and telling the others to also start smoking, otherwise they are not tough and independent. I do hope we get more people who can say no and not give in to that social pressure. In the end, smoking simply signals that you give in to social pressure, very unlike the advertisements tell you.
advertisements about smoking were always about being independent and tough/rebel.
We have Edward Bernays to thank/blame for that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torches_of_Freedom
We have Edward Bernays to thank/blame for that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torches_of_Freedom
This and rear car seat belts are to me proof you can change the behavior of an entire society with a mix of punitive and educative actions if you stick to it long enough.
This is one of the things that bothers me when it comes to prohibition - whether it's marijuana, vaping, or even more obviously harmful drugs like opioids.
Cigarettes are some of the best evidence we have that we don't need prohibition to change behavior. We actually are capable of using regulation, taxation, and education to help encourage people to make smart choices on a society-wide scale. It's rare, it takes decades, and boy oh boy do a lot of incentives have to align. But it can be done!
Cigarettes are some of the best evidence we have that we don't need prohibition to change behavior. We actually are capable of using regulation, taxation, and education to help encourage people to make smart choices on a society-wide scale. It's rare, it takes decades, and boy oh boy do a lot of incentives have to align. But it can be done!
>Cigarettes are some of the best evidence we have that we don't need prohibition to change behavior.
It only took over 60 years, entire generations, and millions dead. Meanwhile giant corporations profited immensely, literally advertised to children, and made up shit science and fostered a general anti-science and anti-intellectualism vibe among the ones who need education most. Glad avoided prohibition for that! It was so beneficial to society to allow people the freedom to inhale literal poison for the benefit of an insanely addictive, mild stimulant, with awful withdrawals, all while poisoning the people around them.
What a goddamn victory for liberty.
It only took over 60 years, entire generations, and millions dead. Meanwhile giant corporations profited immensely, literally advertised to children, and made up shit science and fostered a general anti-science and anti-intellectualism vibe among the ones who need education most. Glad avoided prohibition for that! It was so beneficial to society to allow people the freedom to inhale literal poison for the benefit of an insanely addictive, mild stimulant, with awful withdrawals, all while poisoning the people around them.
What a goddamn victory for liberty.
We have real, effective tools for dealing with substance abuse that don't involve a giant prison-industrial complex.
One of the major problems with prohibition is that it closes off a lot of the avenues we could otherwise use to reduce harm, while creating a black market and, in the case of the utterly senseless "War on Drugs," pushing tons of people into the criminal justice system and creating a massive industry for incarceration of low-level users.
After all this voluntarily created human misery, we've still got a crisis of opioid and other drug abuse in our society, and it's not clear that prohibition does much at all to reduce real rates of usage on the ground. A quick Google suggests that over 100,000 people died of overdoses in 2021.
What a goddamn victory for prohibition.
The decline of tobacco use is proof that there is a better way. It's just harder, takes longer, and, yes, despite the sneers of those who think they know better, has to respect individual liberty, personal responsibility, and freedom of choice.
One of the major problems with prohibition is that it closes off a lot of the avenues we could otherwise use to reduce harm, while creating a black market and, in the case of the utterly senseless "War on Drugs," pushing tons of people into the criminal justice system and creating a massive industry for incarceration of low-level users.
After all this voluntarily created human misery, we've still got a crisis of opioid and other drug abuse in our society, and it's not clear that prohibition does much at all to reduce real rates of usage on the ground. A quick Google suggests that over 100,000 people died of overdoses in 2021.
What a goddamn victory for prohibition.
The decline of tobacco use is proof that there is a better way. It's just harder, takes longer, and, yes, despite the sneers of those who think they know better, has to respect individual liberty, personal responsibility, and freedom of choice.
Prohibition on drugs didn't work, on alcohol didn't work, on prostitution didn't work.
I fail to see how it's an alternative to something that took a long time and cost a lot... but worked.
I fail to see how it's an alternative to something that took a long time and cost a lot... but worked.
Liberty is not the freedom to be obnoxious.
Technically it is.
I'll just move in next to your home and play loud music all night long to express my liberty. I trust you won't have a problem with that.
One of my favorite graphs is this one on smoking rates in the US.
https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2021/07/Smoking-and-lung-...
It peeks in 1960. After that there's a plateau and then a long decline.
The thing that gets me is- why 1960? I mean there were lots of things done after that but if you look at it I can't help but imagine that the causality is backwards. That all the things done to make smoking cigarettes harder were just put there because people didn't want to smoke whatever the reason was.
https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2021/07/Smoking-and-lung-...
It peeks in 1960. After that there's a plateau and then a long decline.
The thing that gets me is- why 1960? I mean there were lots of things done after that but if you look at it I can't help but imagine that the causality is backwards. That all the things done to make smoking cigarettes harder were just put there because people didn't want to smoke whatever the reason was.
It probably won’t be soon but alcohol will be next.
It might be. GenZ seems to be drinking less.
https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/3936579-why-...
https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/3936579-why-...
Can't wait for the inevitable "millenials are killing the beer industry" articles.
Good news, you don't have to wait.
https://www.businessinsider.com/millennials-are-killing-beer...
It's honestly really absurd how many things millenials have killed. At this point it's just a point of pride how much stuff we're leaving in the past.
https://www.businessinsider.com/millennials-are-killing-beer...
It's honestly really absurd how many things millenials have killed. At this point it's just a point of pride how much stuff we're leaving in the past.
you think so? I mean, i basically stopped drinking a year or so ago because it just gave me headaches and I'm aware of the negative health affects, but I find myself in an extremely small category of people who don't drink simply because they don't want to. at least for my peers in their 30s.
I went for years not drinking alcohol. Wasn't 100%... I'd have a spirit out now and then but only if I wasn't driving anywhere. This limited me to conference/hotel setups where I was staying for a few days. So... I might have a few drinks 2-3 times per year. It was largely a health/safety concern, but also a financial one.
Partially due to covid/lockdowns, I started drinking at home more regularly. It's now 4-5 times per month, vs 2-3 times per year. Still can't do too much - heartburn in middle of night if I have more than a drink or so.
Part of the reason I felt more comfortable taking it up was financial. Denied myself this 'indulgence' for a few decades because the cost always seemed relatively high. I can afford it now more than I could 20 years ago, so I'm trying out new things and seeing what I like.
But I definitely felt some social awkwardness when you'd be the only person in a group not drinking. I think the social expectations have changed a bit over the decades - it's not as expected. And... I've changed over the decades - I care far less what people think of me in social settings like that.
Partially due to covid/lockdowns, I started drinking at home more regularly. It's now 4-5 times per month, vs 2-3 times per year. Still can't do too much - heartburn in middle of night if I have more than a drink or so.
Part of the reason I felt more comfortable taking it up was financial. Denied myself this 'indulgence' for a few decades because the cost always seemed relatively high. I can afford it now more than I could 20 years ago, so I'm trying out new things and seeing what I like.
But I definitely felt some social awkwardness when you'd be the only person in a group not drinking. I think the social expectations have changed a bit over the decades - it's not as expected. And... I've changed over the decades - I care far less what people think of me in social settings like that.
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Maybe in the US. Americans seem to be getting quite puritanical about these things. I’m not seeing the same in Europe.
It's not puritanical, it's just substitution: cannabis use is supplanting alcohol use.
Interesting, I’m not seeing that in Europe either.
Look at European birth rates and a bit more puritanism might be beneficial
True, also non-alcoholic and low alcohol beers are becoming more popular and better tasting.
Why? Some studies have shown benefits with moderate wine consumption for example
My understanding is that those were later refuted. (And that light wine drinking correlates with socio-economic status, which also correlates with health)
IIRC three is an increased risk of liver cirrhosis with even one drink a day compared to drinkers of none.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6776700/
But something like 50% of studies don't replicate?
Latest Huberman postcast episodes tend to discuss the opposite.
Whether you think it is justified for health reasons, alcohol consumption is down heavily in GenZ compared to their parents at the same age.
And other studies show the same benefits from moderate consumption of grape juice, sans the well-documented damage that alcohol causes.
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I'm reading this while smoking.
I was over in Germany a few years ago and kind of shocked at how much smoking was happening. My wife and I had initially picked a table outside a restaurant to enjoy the weather, but quickly moved inside when we realized that outside tables are essentially the de-facto smoking section.
I think Marijuana smoking is increasing - it feels like I can't go a day anymore without smelling pot smoke somewhere. (I live in the Portland, OR area)
I think Marijuana smoking is increasing - it feels like I can't go a day anymore without smelling pot smoke somewhere. (I live in the Portland, OR area)
meanwhile MJ smoking is way up. even if not carcinogenic compared to tobacco the act of taking all that hot smoke and its fine particulate matter into one's lungs is unlikely to make a person more healthy
If marijuana were more widely legal I suspect THC vapes would take over its industry the same way nicotine vapes are eating the cigarette industry.
If we can estimate sales as proportional to allocation of counter space in a typical Seattle area dispensary, they are selling approximately 1/3 vapes and concentrates for vaping, 1/3 edibles/drinks/tinctures/topicals, and 1/3 whole plant products. I'd assume at least a quarter to a half of the whole plant product sales are being consumed with a vaping process, like a Volcano, Magic Flight Launchbox, or one of the many of vapes they sell that will take dried and ground plant products (not just weed) instead of concentrate.
Glad to see Gen-Z smoking less and drinking less cow milk and alcohol.
One of the three is the odd one out and you know it as well.
don't forget "having less sex"
I remember visiting Europe a few times over the decades (late 80s through early 2010s). I'd noticed an increase in smoking in Europe as I was noticing a decrease in the US. Someone might have more specific numbers/details/charts, but IIRC, cigarette companies were starting to ramp up marketing outside the US as they could see legislation coming and social support waning.
In my experience, it's still pretty prevalent in Central and Eastern Europe. I was able to smoke in a restaurant in Bulgaria three years ago, and you get nothing like the social disapproval for smoking you tend to in Western Europe (I've since stopped smoking cigarettes.)
It seemed relatively prevalent in Romania when I visited in 2018. And I didn't see it everywhere in Moscow in the early 2010s, but there was more of it than we see in the US daily. And... the other side of that is we have a lot more obese folks in the US than I've seen in various European places. We might be healthier from a smoking standpoint, but probably less healthy in other ways.
Serbia you can pretty much smoke anywhere. The smoking table was next to the non smoking table, only difference was no ashtray.
While obesity hits an all time high, one wonders if we traded one vice for another? Is it better to smoke if it means you eat less? Or vice versa? What's the tradeoff in health?
Are there more health problems as a result of smoking or obesity, in cases where one has made this trade?
Are there more health problems as a result of smoking or obesity, in cases where one has made this trade?
I get where you're going but plenty of smokers are obese.
The meme of "model having Virginia Slims for lunch" is probably just a very specific subset of the overall smoking population.
But of course I'm also just going off anecdata/own experience
The meme of "model having Virginia Slims for lunch" is probably just a very specific subset of the overall smoking population.
But of course I'm also just going off anecdata/own experience
Mental health problems in young people are also at all time highs and nicotine has known palliative affects on some mental health problems.
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Vaping is up though. I’m not sure this is good news.
It's so great watching literal decades of effort reducing a harm to literal children just evaporate because you can make it bubblegum flavored and nobody will stop you because you are rich.
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Nowadays, I hardly see any smokers. They still have them outside night spots, but it's not many. I only caught the tail end of it, but it used to be all over the place, every single kind of establishment had to accommodate smoking in some way.
On this issue, it's worth looking up the statistic epistemology around how we discovered that smoking is bad for you. At the time a very famous statistician (Fischer?) maintained that we couldn't actually tell whether it was causal or not. In the end the evidence from various studies ruled out various competing hypotheses, for instance that people who are going to get cancer will somehow be more prone to smoke. IIRC they found a dataset of doctors and found the ones who smoked tended to die of cancer more often than those who didn't.