Full Interview: Reddit CEO Steve Huffman Isn’t Backing Down(theverge.com)
theverge.com
Full Interview: Reddit CEO Steve Huffman Isn’t Backing Down
https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/15/23762868/reddit-ceo-steve-huffman-interview
65 comments
I think I understand the perspective of shareholders. Reddit was valued $10B at last funding round. They would rather prefer the company to die with say 10% chance of becoming 5x, than drop the valuation to $1B which would be the case if current revenue continues.
So they are making changes, and it doesn't even matter if the changes are most likely very bad for the company. I don't think they are naive to think that reddit can't die and this action would not lead it to that path.
So they are making changes, and it doesn't even matter if the changes are most likely very bad for the company. I don't think they are naive to think that reddit can't die and this action would not lead it to that path.
The problem with this reasoning is there is no 5x path from the current actions. The API change is designed to kill the apps, not raise revenue.
Are there any sources for projecting / predicting likely valuation over the course of the RedditStrike?
> Interviewer: I don’t know if I agree with the characterization that Apollo is a fully direct competitor of Reddit.
> Huffman: Okay, hold on, timeout. You go to the App Store, you type in Reddit, you get two options, right? There’s Apollo. You go to one, it’s my business, and you look at our ads, use our products. That’s 95 percent of our iOS users. The rest go to Apollo, which uses our logo, or something like it, takes our data — for free — and resells it to users making a 100 percent margin. And instead of using our app, they use that app. Is that not competitive?
The Reddit strike should go on forever just for that answer alone.
> Huffman: Okay, hold on, timeout. You go to the App Store, you type in Reddit, you get two options, right? There’s Apollo. You go to one, it’s my business, and you look at our ads, use our products. That’s 95 percent of our iOS users. The rest go to Apollo, which uses our logo, or something like it, takes our data — for free — and resells it to users making a 100 percent margin. And instead of using our app, they use that app. Is that not competitive?
The Reddit strike should go on forever just for that answer alone.
He has a point, no? Sure, there's a middle ground where API access is priced so both Reddit and Apollo make money. But Apollo can offer a better experience because they don't have to sell ads, and if they get a large enough market share they can just start their own Reddit.. the codebase is not an effective moat.
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> But Apollo can offer a better experience because they don't have to sell ads...
Reddit could require serving their ads as a requirement for API access. Right now there is no way for Apollo to serve reddit ads even if they wanted to.
Reddit could require serving their ads as a requirement for API access. Right now there is no way for Apollo to serve reddit ads even if they wanted to.
I don't think the reddit API currently includes their ads.
Reddit could choose to include the ads they sell within the API calls and say that anyone who uses the API has to display the reddit ads as well.
Maybe they could even share the ad revenue with the third party apps when someone clicks on the ads in the third party app.
They could then charge for the API calls that don't have the ads in them - e.g. the LLM that are consuming the data.
Reddit could choose to include the ads they sell within the API calls and say that anyone who uses the API has to display the reddit ads as well.
Maybe they could even share the ad revenue with the third party apps when someone clicks on the ads in the third party app.
They could then charge for the API calls that don't have the ads in them - e.g. the LLM that are consuming the data.
How would that be enforced?
Telegram does the same. They just revoke your API access and on continuous violations ban your and your users accounts. Currently there are almost no apps daring to cross that line.
Contractually?
It's far worse option than directly taking money for the API access.
Depends, if your goal is to increase the value of your ad sells not necessarily.
But the point is really that there are plenty of options, and instead of attempting any of those Cs just went with api euthanasia.
But the point is really that there are plenty of options, and instead of attempting any of those Cs just went with api euthanasia.
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>But Apollo can offer a better experience because they don't have to sell ads
Apollo can offer a better experience because they don't have to constantly push recommendations and test new features to boost engagement metrics. If every 10th post on Apollo was an ad it would still be an improvement over the Reddit app.
Apollo can offer a better experience because they don't have to constantly push recommendations and test new features to boost engagement metrics. If every 10th post on Apollo was an ad it would still be an improvement over the Reddit app.
> and if they get a large enough market share they can just start their own Reddit.
That assumes that Apollo is sufficiently profitable to host the necessary backend systems to support a reddit clone. This also means that they need to have moderators (and if they're volunteer moderates where back at the "reddit takes advantage of volunteer moderators" square). It also means that this instance would have the appropriate legal staff to be able to handle trademark disputes, DMCA claims, and assorted challenges to maintain itself in the face of trolls, unsavory content, and such.
The moat that Reddit has from such upstarts isn't that its hard to build an instance, or stand one up, or even maintaining a community there - but rather making sure that it stays up by following the assorted laws (GDPR, CDA, trademark, copyright, etc...) out while maintaining a sufficient income stream to pay the staff (and maintain advertisers if you're not going full subscription only).
That assumes that Apollo is sufficiently profitable to host the necessary backend systems to support a reddit clone. This also means that they need to have moderators (and if they're volunteer moderates where back at the "reddit takes advantage of volunteer moderators" square). It also means that this instance would have the appropriate legal staff to be able to handle trademark disputes, DMCA claims, and assorted challenges to maintain itself in the face of trolls, unsavory content, and such.
The moat that Reddit has from such upstarts isn't that its hard to build an instance, or stand one up, or even maintaining a community there - but rather making sure that it stays up by following the assorted laws (GDPR, CDA, trademark, copyright, etc...) out while maintaining a sufficient income stream to pay the staff (and maintain advertisers if you're not going full subscription only).
I pay for reddit gold. I can use reddit’s mobile app without ads. It’s still shit compared to Apollo.
They could have just priced the API at:
ARPU from Ads on Reddit + some markup for maintaining the API.
Apollo could pass this on to their users as the fee for ads free Reddit experience.
This way their incentives are aligned with Apollo’s.
Both earn money and are incentivized to grow their user base.
Apollo could pass this on to their users as the fee for ads free Reddit experience.
This way their incentives are aligned with Apollo’s.
Both earn money and are incentivized to grow their user base.
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Reddit already has a no-ads Premium offering. Just require 3rd party app users to buy that -- just like Spotify does. Problem solved.
Huffman has a point. How hard would it be for Apollo to establish their own APIs and hosted infra? Not hard I suspect. For instance they could allow users to cross to both Reddit and Apollo when creating new content, etc.
To save apollo? An ios-only app that a tiny number of people use? talk about entitlement
If it’s such a tiny number of people, why is spez so desperate to shut it down?
The question to ask is "why are mods taking down the whole site for a tiny app"
almost every company does not allow direct competitors in their platform. I m not even sure about the apps they are "cooperating" with. Down the road, one of them may end up reselling reddit content and come into conflict again.
The fact that reddit made poor decisions in the past should not stop them from making the right decisions now. Unfortunately though they still dont seem to have a good plan
almost every company does not allow direct competitors in their platform. I m not even sure about the apps they are "cooperating" with. Down the road, one of them may end up reselling reddit content and come into conflict again.
The fact that reddit made poor decisions in the past should not stop them from making the right decisions now. Unfortunately though they still dont seem to have a good plan
This isn’t just about Apollo, it’s about the API changes in general and how those affect all third party apps as well as the extensive tools that mods have had to build and use to make up for Reddit’s poor tooling.
If the number of people using it so tiny then why is such a big problem for Reddit? It's not like calling an API is more cost than using the website itself. Huffman says only 3% of users use 3rd party apps. If that's the case, then why bother with all this crap? For some slice of 3%?
Journalist:
> I want to stop you for a second there. So you’re saying that Apollo, RIF, Sync, they don’t add value to Reddit?
Spez: > Not as much as they take. No way.
Let’s be clear, if 1 developer can make millions through Apollo and do a way better app than the Reddit team, what does that say about Reddit as a whole and their development?
It fucking sucks!
Spez: > Not as much as they take. No way.
Let’s be clear, if 1 developer can make millions through Apollo and do a way better app than the Reddit team, what does that say about Reddit as a whole and their development?
It fucking sucks!
I imagine Reddit's response would be, we have to show annoying ads etc to make back the money we spend on infrastructure. Apollo simply uses our work for free, and so can offer an artificially better deal.
But it would be very simple for Reddit to require ads to be served in Apollo. They could say that in order to view a feed of posts at scale, you'll have to include ads that are injected into the feed. They could revoke the API token for any clients which don't do that. In fact, there are plenty of ways for Reddit to get their money back.
Simply put, the Reddit CEO definitely wants to kill 3rd party apps. He just knows that saying it out loud would have an even bigger backlash. With the current approach, he can pretend to care about 3rd party apps, but do everything to make it financially impossible to run one.
Simply put, the Reddit CEO definitely wants to kill 3rd party apps. He just knows that saying it out loud would have an even bigger backlash. With the current approach, he can pretend to care about 3rd party apps, but do everything to make it financially impossible to run one.
Certainly seems that way. They had been giving access. Then made pricing outrageous and 30 days to comply. A way to kill them off without straight up removing their access or shutting down the API to third parties in full.
Why not simply charge for the API, and let Apollo figure out a funding model that works for them. It could be subscription, it could be going with a different ad server.
Having Reddit need to do audits of clients (where the clients could do things like quietly reduce the number of ads you get if you've tipped $9.99 or more - or not serve ads if your ID is on this special list so that friends don't see the ads or use a developer special trial build) is impractical and would mean that its even more of a call of if the client is in compliance or not.
What's more, ads served by the API to a client that isn't controlled by Reddit are less valuable - Reddit would have less information about how much engagement they had with the ad.
Having Reddit need to do audits of clients (where the clients could do things like quietly reduce the number of ads you get if you've tipped $9.99 or more - or not serve ads if your ID is on this special list so that friends don't see the ads or use a developer special trial build) is impractical and would mean that its even more of a call of if the client is in compliance or not.
What's more, ads served by the API to a client that isn't controlled by Reddit are less valuable - Reddit would have less information about how much engagement they had with the ad.
> What's more, ads served by the API to a client that isn't controlled by Reddit are less valuable - Reddit would have less information about how much engagement they had with the ad.
That's the key: Reddit and Twitter and Facebook and the like are not selling ads, they're selling you, the user. The users are the product. They're collecting every bit of data about you, building personal profiles. 3rd party apps would never be that intrusive. Delivering eyeballs on ads is not enough.
That's the key: Reddit and Twitter and Facebook and the like are not selling ads, they're selling you, the user. The users are the product. They're collecting every bit of data about you, building personal profiles. 3rd party apps would never be that intrusive. Delivering eyeballs on ads is not enough.
The thing they seem to completely miss is that the value these apps brought comes from the dedicated/addicted users who generate the only thing of value: content. And needing a 3rd party app to make regular use viable from a mobile device has always been a thing.
It’s totally fair for them to say they need to address the ad issue. But to claim these apps bring no value is pretty ridiculous on his part.
It’s totally fair for them to say they need to address the ad issue. But to claim these apps bring no value is pretty ridiculous on his part.
They could also just require a user to have a Reddit Gold membership - which already doesn't show ads anywhere.
> our work
A lot to unpack here.
A lot to unpack here.
Ah, well, I'm sure a real response from Reddit would be much more careful than I was to point to the costs of their infrastructure and away from all the work users do to generate content for free.
I think they are implying that accidentally let slip that you work at reddit. The way I read your comment is you were speculating what somebody from reddit would say.
Maybe I should have used quote marks for everything after the first comma. I don't work at Reddit.
>Let’s be clear, if 1 developer can make millions through Apollo and do a way better app than the Reddit team, what does that say about Reddit as a whole and their development?
Not taking sides on this.
I wouldn't say the Apollo app is better. I've used both and the search UX on Apollo is so bad.
Furthermore, Apollo does not need to worry about backend at all since Reddit does all the work and gave it to Apollo for free.
Not taking sides on this.
I wouldn't say the Apollo app is better. I've used both and the search UX on Apollo is so bad.
Furthermore, Apollo does not need to worry about backend at all since Reddit does all the work and gave it to Apollo for free.
For what it'sp worth and from what I read.
Apollo did have a backend that made up for features that the Reddit API either kept as private APIs or refused to implement. He released the code as open source last week. He paid a part-time developer for the implementation and maintenance of code as well.
Featured that other APIs offer, like webhooks, pub/sub etc., were requested by various developers over the years but never implemented or took far longer to implement (years). This led to developers designing workarounds to get feature parity with Reddit's app, i.e., notifications. A few of these drastically cut down on total number of API calls by design, which would help them reduce the infrastructure spend they are so concerned with.
Ignoring the content consuming (Apollo, RiF, Sync, etc.) third-party app side of the discussion.
My biggest takeaway from the entire argument is Reddit now has 2000 employee's but 100 of the requests for improvements for the API, built-in moderator tools, etc., have been mishandled/ignored/years late. Because of that, many people took matters into their own hands and used the API to fill in the gaps in their moderation/admin/creator workflow, and initially, before they conceded on some of those tools, they were affected as well. It wasn't until a couple of days into the uproar (after the price was released, before the blackout) that they reversed course on some of those tools, including conceding the accessibility apps (being 39, and wearing hearing aids for severe loss, I sympathize with the users that are protesting because the web and first party app are lacking in this). I can understand the protest from the above, especially giving the short timeline between prices being released and go live.
I'm all for businesses being profitable; I'm all for companies having the right to adjust processes, prices and change terms, etc., but in my opinion, Reddit has severely mismanaged this situation and, in general, been a severely mismanaged business if they are as the CEO says not profitable by now.
Apollo did have a backend that made up for features that the Reddit API either kept as private APIs or refused to implement. He released the code as open source last week. He paid a part-time developer for the implementation and maintenance of code as well.
Featured that other APIs offer, like webhooks, pub/sub etc., were requested by various developers over the years but never implemented or took far longer to implement (years). This led to developers designing workarounds to get feature parity with Reddit's app, i.e., notifications. A few of these drastically cut down on total number of API calls by design, which would help them reduce the infrastructure spend they are so concerned with.
Ignoring the content consuming (Apollo, RiF, Sync, etc.) third-party app side of the discussion.
My biggest takeaway from the entire argument is Reddit now has 2000 employee's but 100 of the requests for improvements for the API, built-in moderator tools, etc., have been mishandled/ignored/years late. Because of that, many people took matters into their own hands and used the API to fill in the gaps in their moderation/admin/creator workflow, and initially, before they conceded on some of those tools, they were affected as well. It wasn't until a couple of days into the uproar (after the price was released, before the blackout) that they reversed course on some of those tools, including conceding the accessibility apps (being 39, and wearing hearing aids for severe loss, I sympathize with the users that are protesting because the web and first party app are lacking in this). I can understand the protest from the above, especially giving the short timeline between prices being released and go live.
I'm all for businesses being profitable; I'm all for companies having the right to adjust processes, prices and change terms, etc., but in my opinion, Reddit has severely mismanaged this situation and, in general, been a severely mismanaged business if they are as the CEO says not profitable by now.
> We don’t have to meet our deadline. We told folks hey, we need to come up with a plan, or we’re going to start billing you on July 1st.
I don't understand why he keeps doing these interviews, he's just terrible at responding to completely predictable, reasonable questions.
I don't understand why he keeps doing these interviews, he's just terrible at responding to completely predictable, reasonable questions.
I can't believe he's the CEO of a company as big as Reddit. After being pressed for why the 3P apps have 1 month to figure out a plan, he is visibly angry and keeps saying "we've been supporting them for 10 years!" which only makes the company look incompetent for not warning sooner if July 1st is some hard deadline. Then saying "those 3p devs [Apollo] don't want to work with us" with no hint of irony. Dude, obviously Apollo can't suddenly start getting billed for $1m/month with no time to change the codebase to see what they can optimize.
It's so disingenuous too. Basically calling app developers freeloaders. The reality is that Reddit just didn't charge them. If someone hands you a cookie for free every day for 10 years is it fair to call you a freeloader? You didn't steal the cookies -- they literally wrapped them up and handed them to you every day. How horrible it is that you ate all those cookies without paying!
Seems like their ipo could flop
One of the most dislikable CEOs I can think of. He's clearly tilted from one guy making a better product than 2000 people under his leadership. How embarrassing it must be for everyone.
[deleted]
> It costs us about $10 million in pure infrastructure costs to support these apps. But it’s not labor, that’s not R&D, that’s not safety, that’s not ML, and that doesn’t include the lost monetization of having users not on our platform. Just pure cloud spend. It’s real money.
He’s saying that it costs them $10M/year in “pure cloud spend” to serve 3% of their users. Despite what they say, if you look at requests, it’s obvious that Apollo is more efficient than Reddit’s app. So if he’s telling the truth, that extrapolates to at least $333M of “pure cloud spend” to serve all of their users.
He’s saying that it costs them $10M/year in “pure cloud spend” to serve 3% of their users. Despite what they say, if you look at requests, it’s obvious that Apollo is more efficient than Reddit’s app. So if he’s telling the truth, that extrapolates to at least $333M of “pure cloud spend” to serve all of their users.
Maybe cloud+python+gazillions of individual HTTP requests is a setup for burning money? No, it is the kids who are wrong.
There are a million and five ways Reddit could reduce the cost of serving users' data. The whole situation boils down to this disingenuous falsehood spez keeps throwing about - "our data".
Frankly we need anti-trust enforcement to stop this widespread bundling of digital services together with the software that accesses them, and/or a statutory right for programmatic API access to do everything a user is authorized to do by other means.
In the meantime I'd really love to see some adversarial interoperability around this. Reddit has to serve content to their proprietary front ends some how, and there's no reason third party clients can't just use those endpoints instead of assenting to API terms and whatnot.
There are a million and five ways Reddit could reduce the cost of serving users' data. The whole situation boils down to this disingenuous falsehood spez keeps throwing about - "our data".
Frankly we need anti-trust enforcement to stop this widespread bundling of digital services together with the software that accesses them, and/or a statutory right for programmatic API access to do everything a user is authorized to do by other means.
In the meantime I'd really love to see some adversarial interoperability around this. Reddit has to serve content to their proprietary front ends some how, and there's no reason third party clients can't just use those endpoints instead of assenting to API terms and whatnot.
I think Reddit gave away the game plan when they decided to remove API access to NSFW subreddits. Between that and making the mobile app required to view them (blocking mobile web), they’ve basically created a porn app, not just a glorified web browser, and managed to get it into the App Store. One with no private browsing mode, no ad blockers, and resetting all of your advertising identifiers is high friction (you have to create a new account). This is an adult content advertiser’s dream come true. Of course reddit wants complete control over it.
That’s why the blackout protests are doomed. Unless it causes enough people to stop using reddit altogether, they will have no effect.
That’s why the blackout protests are doomed. Unless it causes enough people to stop using reddit altogether, they will have no effect.
5% of users are accounted for $10M cloud spend? Simple extrapolation suggests $200M annual cloud spend and their 2021 annual revenue was $350M. If those numbers are really true, I guess they're making a very wrong prioritization. They should be doing aggressive cost optimization on their infrastructure rather than trying to find a small revenue stream from those 5%.
Reddit got half a billion people addicted to candy and now CEO Steve Huffman refuses to sell it because he thinks they're eating it wrong.
There's already an API and an ecosystem of third party apps. I'm amazed at the failure to embrace the opportunity to monetize this in a reasonable timescale, in a world where customers are already accustomed to monthly subscriptions.
There's already an API and an ecosystem of third party apps. I'm amazed at the failure to embrace the opportunity to monetize this in a reasonable timescale, in a world where customers are already accustomed to monthly subscriptions.
Hard to fathom the stupidity, but the arc of this (Huffman's statements, including the dishonest and the just plain "tells") and Verge interview yesterday suggest that the reason for the line in the sand killing Apollo, RIF, etc. is jealousy / spite.
https://9to5mac.com/2023/06/15/reddit-blackout-third-party-a...
Reminds me of:
https://youtu.be/uimI1pXDZcg
Except, here, it's not just some jacket and a couple of people. It's some perhaps dozens of $millions made by a few app devs against a $multi-billion IPO and access and usefulness of a key site on the internet (e.g., inability of many to access valuable info and communities for days, now).
Something personal like this interfering with the IPO, and activities of so many beyond that, is a monumental failure of judgment. Combined with Huffman's past history of dishonesty and ineptness in multiple areas (including making Reddit profitable after 7+ years at the helm in this current round), seems like the best solution to the problem at this point would be removing him from the CEO position.
(Obviously, this seems easy from the outside, but I have no idea how easy / practical this would be in the "full picture")
https://9to5mac.com/2023/06/15/reddit-blackout-third-party-a...
Reminds me of:
https://youtu.be/uimI1pXDZcg
Except, here, it's not just some jacket and a couple of people. It's some perhaps dozens of $millions made by a few app devs against a $multi-billion IPO and access and usefulness of a key site on the internet (e.g., inability of many to access valuable info and communities for days, now).
Something personal like this interfering with the IPO, and activities of so many beyond that, is a monumental failure of judgment. Combined with Huffman's past history of dishonesty and ineptness in multiple areas (including making Reddit profitable after 7+ years at the helm in this current round), seems like the best solution to the problem at this point would be removing him from the CEO position.
(Obviously, this seems easy from the outside, but I have no idea how easy / practical this would be in the "full picture")
From the start I was expecting to start paying for this. I've used 3rd party apps for over 10 years. Make it a reasonable amount and I'm in. Instead we get this.
Heck, I was willing buy Reddit Premium or pay up to $10/mo to keep using Apollo but the timeline is way too short. I understand why the Apollo dev is throwing in towel, especially with Reddit lying/gaslighting like they are.
>If comments were on for those posts... there’s a reason why they’re not allowing comments. That is a very un-Reddit thing to do.
If it's unreddit why is it a feature of reddit? (A feature, that in my opinion, is heavily abused by mods and admins).
If it's unreddit why is it a feature of reddit? (A feature, that in my opinion, is heavily abused by mods and admins).
Some Reddit staff at some point jump in to say this, impromptu:
> Tim Rathschmidt, Reddit’s director of consumer and product communications: An angle no one else has been writing about is the desire and frustration with users that want their communities back. Especially being vocal about it. That’s just not something that’s really been covered.
> Steve Huffman: The blackouts are not representative of the greater Reddit community. Users may have been for this on Monday, they’re not for it now.
Same exact kind of FUD about the Real Public™ being inconvenienced and unsupportive you'd hear from the suits with respect to a regular labor strike. But here presented as some kind of special insight that the media are all conspiring to hide.
> Tim Rathschmidt, Reddit’s director of consumer and product communications: An angle no one else has been writing about is the desire and frustration with users that want their communities back. Especially being vocal about it. That’s just not something that’s really been covered.
> Steve Huffman: The blackouts are not representative of the greater Reddit community. Users may have been for this on Monday, they’re not for it now.
Same exact kind of FUD about the Real Public™ being inconvenienced and unsupportive you'd hear from the suits with respect to a regular labor strike. But here presented as some kind of special insight that the media are all conspiring to hide.
> It seems like a lot of these folks are smaller — maybe one person — and they’re just being forced to shut down. Are those the folks that are making millions?
> > The ones we’ve talked about today, yes. Once they’ve thrown in the towel, they’re doing quite well.
> Can you give any sense of scale, how well they’re doing?
> > You’re talking to them, go ask them! Millions. He said how many subscribers he has, his price list is public. [Selig did not deny the “millions” claim when reached for comment.]
That really says it all, doesn't it?
> > The ones we’ve talked about today, yes. Once they’ve thrown in the towel, they’re doing quite well.
> Can you give any sense of scale, how well they’re doing?
> > You’re talking to them, go ask them! Millions. He said how many subscribers he has, his price list is public. [Selig did not deny the “millions” claim when reached for comment.]
That really says it all, doesn't it?
Yesterday, I wanted to write a comment on a programming sub with some advice. But I decided not to because I ain't training reddit's AI product. This has happened repeatedly the last few weeks, and on many other platforms like github as well, I wanted to post something but decided not to, because I can't get over the fact I'll be training someone's AI.
Holy shit so many lies and outright bullshit, let's unpack.
> One of the most important points I’d like to make today is that Reddit is a platform built by its users. My favorite analogy for Reddit is that of a city. Cities are physical things, but they’re really these living organisms created by their citizens. I think Reddit is very much the same. We’re a platform and tech company on one hand, but on the other it’s a living organism, this democratic living organism, created by its users.
But they will take away those users control of their subs and they will undelete/unedit comments of users to protect what they see as "their" content.
He completely ignores/side-steps the question on why they told the Apollo dev there would be no API changes this year. Then tries to pretend that April is actually when the clock started on all of this when they /just/ announced the pricing. Even what they said in April was unclear and they refused to clarify when asked.
> We’re perfectly willing to work with the folks who want to work with us, including figuring out what that transition period will look like.
Lies, just straight lies. The Apollo dev was under this impression, reached out to Reddit and asked for some more time, and they told him no. Just pure bullshit coming from /u/spez but that's what we have come to expect I guess.
> You’re talking to them, go ask them! Millions. He said how many subscribers he has, his price list is public. [Selig did not deny the “millions” claim when reached for comment.] I have a guess on how many. He’s given a lower number of subscribers, I have another guess that’s higher. But it’s real money.
I'm sure he has made millions but the app has been around for many years. From the numbers he has quoted (~50K yearly subs and the current price is now like $13/yr) we can guess at about $650,000/year, $552,500 after Apple's cut, and then he pays a backend dev, has server costs of his own, and pays for things like icons from designers. Very quickly the Selig's take-home looks very similar to a mid to high-end developer in CA. It's disingenuous to lump all the revenue over many years together and play it off as if he is raking in millions (plural) a year. How much does Huffman make a year?
> Isn’t there a way you could at least give them longer and work a little bit more closely on negotiable terms for folks like Apollo or Sync or RIF? Some of their users are, I’m sure, power users of Reddit and want to see them succeed.
>> I said we are working with everybody who is willing to work with us, which includes many of the other third party apps. The three you mentioned said they don’t want to work with us and they’re shutting down. I didn’t tell them to do that.
Again, lies.
Then he sidesteps all the questions about giving a longer time to app developers and plays whataboutism games then says one of the most galling things (to me), he calls Apollo a direct competitor. Full stop, that's bullshit. You might lose out on some tracking/ad revenue (which, by the way, is tiny based on their financials and Reddit is quick to tell you the 3rd party app users are a tiny percentage of the userbase, you can't have it both ways Reddit) but it's not a direct competitor. Apollo users provide content and moderation for your (Reddit) platform. It's not like they suck in all the Reddit data and then have their own side-discussions that don't contribute back to Reddit. Just so freaking tone deaf.
> We offer the API so the vast majority of our use of the uses of the API — so not these, the other 98 percent of them that make tools, bots, enhancements for Reddit — that’s what the API is for. It was never designed to support third-party apps.
And that's the first time I've ever heard that, might the first time it's been said publically (but at best it was first said within the last month). Reddit encouraged these 3rd party developers, reddit's first app was 3rd party app they bought, this is rewriting history and, once again, lies, sense a theme here?
> profiting off of our API
I can't even with this clown. You (Reddit) decided to give the API away for free, you encouraged these developers to make/improve their apps, you pretend it was a one-way street, it absolutely wasn't. The amount these apps made compared to Reddit's revenue is peanuts ($650M vs $552K for 1 app, let's pretend there were 4-Apollo-sized apps, that's ~2.2M, or .03%, and it was not pure profit for those apps, they had costs/salaries as well).
> I want to stop you for a second there. So you’re saying that Apollo, RIF, Sync, they don’t add value to Reddit?
>> Not as much as they take. No way.
I don't believe this even for a second. Just pure bullshit. Let's also remember that this API change comes with no new features, app developers have been asking for years if not over a decade for better API endpoints (streaming/webhooks) to lessen the load of polling, they've asked for better endpoints to lower the load, Reddit has done nothing. They haven't even kept the API up in feature parity to what the new web/app can do.
> 90-plus percent of Reddit users are on our platform, contributing, and are monetized either through ads or Reddit Premium. Why would we subsidize this small group? Why would we effectively pay them to use Reddit but not everybody else who also contributes to Reddit? Does that make sense?
> These people who are mad, they’re mad because they used to get something for free, and now it’s going to be not free. And that free comes at the expense of our other users and our business. That’s what this is about. It can’t be free.
Ahh yes the good old "These people just want something for free". That's poppycock, I'm more than willing to pay but you've offered no good solutions. I'd even pay the absurd API costs (plus the Apple tax, plus a little extra for the developer) but your timeline is way too short for the app developers to make this work. Also you keep saying you will work with the devs and give them more time but that's a lie. Apollo asked specifically for this and you said no.
> Do you imagine there are going to be other third party apps after these API changes? What do you see the future of third-party apps looking like?
>> We’ll see. We’ll see. Like we try to charge so it works out to about $1 per user per month for reasonable API usage. I don’t think that’s unreasonable.
That number is a fantasy, the Reddit app itself wouldn't come close to that usage. They've made up that number and it's insulting they keep throwing it around when they don't even come within the ballpark of that.
> How widely are you seeing that sentiment? If I go on r/all right now, at least as of about an hour ago, four of the five top posts are all about these blackouts. Let me see.
>> Oh, you mean these posts that have no comments? Those ones?
> They’re highly upvoted by their communities.
>> If there were comments on there, I bet I can tell you what those comments would say. They would say “knock this off, it’s annoying.” Because if you go to the other posts where comments are enabled, that’s what people are saying.
Wow, Reddit should drop their main product and go all in on this mind reading ability they have /s. Also I've heard this BS from every protest (online or real life) I've followed. Yes, some people are annoyed by the protests, that's the freaking point.
> I’m sure people are not as supportive of it as they might have been earlier in the week, because it has obviously been a huge inconvenience to using Reddit on a day-to-day basis. But how can we prove that, broadly, users are not in support of the Reddit protests when some of the top upvoted posts are protest posts?
>> If comments were on for those posts... there’s a reason why they’re not allowing comments. That is a very un-Reddit thing to do. We don’t do that. I do my AMA. I take my beating.
> In that AMA...
>> People were pissed.
> They were not happy.
>> Yeah. And we took it.
And you answered like 14 questions total, I'm not sure what this is supposed to prove?
I already disliked Huffman due to his blatant lies and mischaracterization but this is over the top. I had a small hope Reddit would see the error of their ways and reverse course at least partly but it seems they are fully prepared to ram this down everyone's throats. It was fun while it lasted.
> One of the most important points I’d like to make today is that Reddit is a platform built by its users. My favorite analogy for Reddit is that of a city. Cities are physical things, but they’re really these living organisms created by their citizens. I think Reddit is very much the same. We’re a platform and tech company on one hand, but on the other it’s a living organism, this democratic living organism, created by its users.
But they will take away those users control of their subs and they will undelete/unedit comments of users to protect what they see as "their" content.
He completely ignores/side-steps the question on why they told the Apollo dev there would be no API changes this year. Then tries to pretend that April is actually when the clock started on all of this when they /just/ announced the pricing. Even what they said in April was unclear and they refused to clarify when asked.
> We’re perfectly willing to work with the folks who want to work with us, including figuring out what that transition period will look like.
Lies, just straight lies. The Apollo dev was under this impression, reached out to Reddit and asked for some more time, and they told him no. Just pure bullshit coming from /u/spez but that's what we have come to expect I guess.
> You’re talking to them, go ask them! Millions. He said how many subscribers he has, his price list is public. [Selig did not deny the “millions” claim when reached for comment.] I have a guess on how many. He’s given a lower number of subscribers, I have another guess that’s higher. But it’s real money.
I'm sure he has made millions but the app has been around for many years. From the numbers he has quoted (~50K yearly subs and the current price is now like $13/yr) we can guess at about $650,000/year, $552,500 after Apple's cut, and then he pays a backend dev, has server costs of his own, and pays for things like icons from designers. Very quickly the Selig's take-home looks very similar to a mid to high-end developer in CA. It's disingenuous to lump all the revenue over many years together and play it off as if he is raking in millions (plural) a year. How much does Huffman make a year?
> Isn’t there a way you could at least give them longer and work a little bit more closely on negotiable terms for folks like Apollo or Sync or RIF? Some of their users are, I’m sure, power users of Reddit and want to see them succeed.
>> I said we are working with everybody who is willing to work with us, which includes many of the other third party apps. The three you mentioned said they don’t want to work with us and they’re shutting down. I didn’t tell them to do that.
Again, lies.
Then he sidesteps all the questions about giving a longer time to app developers and plays whataboutism games then says one of the most galling things (to me), he calls Apollo a direct competitor. Full stop, that's bullshit. You might lose out on some tracking/ad revenue (which, by the way, is tiny based on their financials and Reddit is quick to tell you the 3rd party app users are a tiny percentage of the userbase, you can't have it both ways Reddit) but it's not a direct competitor. Apollo users provide content and moderation for your (Reddit) platform. It's not like they suck in all the Reddit data and then have their own side-discussions that don't contribute back to Reddit. Just so freaking tone deaf.
> We offer the API so the vast majority of our use of the uses of the API — so not these, the other 98 percent of them that make tools, bots, enhancements for Reddit — that’s what the API is for. It was never designed to support third-party apps.
And that's the first time I've ever heard that, might the first time it's been said publically (but at best it was first said within the last month). Reddit encouraged these 3rd party developers, reddit's first app was 3rd party app they bought, this is rewriting history and, once again, lies, sense a theme here?
> profiting off of our API
I can't even with this clown. You (Reddit) decided to give the API away for free, you encouraged these developers to make/improve their apps, you pretend it was a one-way street, it absolutely wasn't. The amount these apps made compared to Reddit's revenue is peanuts ($650M vs $552K for 1 app, let's pretend there were 4-Apollo-sized apps, that's ~2.2M, or .03%, and it was not pure profit for those apps, they had costs/salaries as well).
> I want to stop you for a second there. So you’re saying that Apollo, RIF, Sync, they don’t add value to Reddit?
>> Not as much as they take. No way.
I don't believe this even for a second. Just pure bullshit. Let's also remember that this API change comes with no new features, app developers have been asking for years if not over a decade for better API endpoints (streaming/webhooks) to lessen the load of polling, they've asked for better endpoints to lower the load, Reddit has done nothing. They haven't even kept the API up in feature parity to what the new web/app can do.
> 90-plus percent of Reddit users are on our platform, contributing, and are monetized either through ads or Reddit Premium. Why would we subsidize this small group? Why would we effectively pay them to use Reddit but not everybody else who also contributes to Reddit? Does that make sense?
> These people who are mad, they’re mad because they used to get something for free, and now it’s going to be not free. And that free comes at the expense of our other users and our business. That’s what this is about. It can’t be free.
Ahh yes the good old "These people just want something for free". That's poppycock, I'm more than willing to pay but you've offered no good solutions. I'd even pay the absurd API costs (plus the Apple tax, plus a little extra for the developer) but your timeline is way too short for the app developers to make this work. Also you keep saying you will work with the devs and give them more time but that's a lie. Apollo asked specifically for this and you said no.
> Do you imagine there are going to be other third party apps after these API changes? What do you see the future of third-party apps looking like?
>> We’ll see. We’ll see. Like we try to charge so it works out to about $1 per user per month for reasonable API usage. I don’t think that’s unreasonable.
That number is a fantasy, the Reddit app itself wouldn't come close to that usage. They've made up that number and it's insulting they keep throwing it around when they don't even come within the ballpark of that.
> How widely are you seeing that sentiment? If I go on r/all right now, at least as of about an hour ago, four of the five top posts are all about these blackouts. Let me see.
>> Oh, you mean these posts that have no comments? Those ones?
> They’re highly upvoted by their communities.
>> If there were comments on there, I bet I can tell you what those comments would say. They would say “knock this off, it’s annoying.” Because if you go to the other posts where comments are enabled, that’s what people are saying.
Wow, Reddit should drop their main product and go all in on this mind reading ability they have /s. Also I've heard this BS from every protest (online or real life) I've followed. Yes, some people are annoyed by the protests, that's the freaking point.
> I’m sure people are not as supportive of it as they might have been earlier in the week, because it has obviously been a huge inconvenience to using Reddit on a day-to-day basis. But how can we prove that, broadly, users are not in support of the Reddit protests when some of the top upvoted posts are protest posts?
>> If comments were on for those posts... there’s a reason why they’re not allowing comments. That is a very un-Reddit thing to do. We don’t do that. I do my AMA. I take my beating.
> In that AMA...
>> People were pissed.
> They were not happy.
>> Yeah. And we took it.
And you answered like 14 questions total, I'm not sure what this is supposed to prove?
I already disliked Huffman due to his blatant lies and mischaracterization but this is over the top. I had a small hope Reddit would see the error of their ways and reverse course at least partly but it seems they are fully prepared to ram this down everyone's throats. It was fun while it lasted.
An executive openly attacking community members and developers, some of whom originally wrote the app that Reddit the bought to brand as their official one, as ‘not the intended users’ of the API is just misleading. They clearly saw value in having an app and bought one, one which wouldn’t have existed without API access, and which Reddit had previously heralded as a first class feature. Now they claim apps are a misuse of their api and they intended it for bots and tools only as part of their reasoning, and it just makes their whole argument seem poorly thought out.
At the end of the day, they own their platform, and can do what they like, but this attitude will cost them some of their most active contributors who decide it’s not worth putting up with their now bloated official experiences.
Also the repeated claims that third party apps strip ads is just plain wrong. Reddit has never included ads in the API nor provided a way to show ads on reddits behalf.