Neural stimulation as a treatment for addiction(spectrum.ieee.org)
spectrum.ieee.org
Neural stimulation as a treatment for addiction
https://spectrum.ieee.org/tms-for-addiction
36 comments
Yeah, I think I’d rather handle any addiction myself than go through that.
Especially when there are viable addiction treatments, but the overall treatment experience still always blame the person at a root level, so they aren’t as successful as they could be.
Me. I started smoking cigs at 23, and not one doctor ever asked me why I started later than pretty much anyone else (got divorced, and my dude friends were smoking, thought I could outsmart nicotine.)
Had to process it with nothing but terrible advice from people who never got addicted to anything. Then those who quit because they were pregnant/new dad with angry wife.
Especially when there are viable addiction treatments, but the overall treatment experience still always blame the person at a root level, so they aren’t as successful as they could be.
Me. I started smoking cigs at 23, and not one doctor ever asked me why I started later than pretty much anyone else (got divorced, and my dude friends were smoking, thought I could outsmart nicotine.)
Had to process it with nothing but terrible advice from people who never got addicted to anything. Then those who quit because they were pregnant/new dad with angry wife.
>Yeah, I think I’d rather handle any addiction myself than go through that
Then you probably don't really know addiction. Recovered hard drug addicts can get cravings for substances for the rest of their lives. The brain doesn't let go because it knows it can get that feeling again at any time. Not relapsing is a continuous battle, although it gets easier with time.
I get that the research sounds a bit disturbing, but if it works, it would be a groundbreaking therapy for addiction and a lot of people would be able to live their lives again.
Then you probably don't really know addiction. Recovered hard drug addicts can get cravings for substances for the rest of their lives. The brain doesn't let go because it knows it can get that feeling again at any time. Not relapsing is a continuous battle, although it gets easier with time.
I get that the research sounds a bit disturbing, but if it works, it would be a groundbreaking therapy for addiction and a lot of people would be able to live their lives again.
I can accept that. But life is short. Such a horrific experience had better have provably positive outcomes before I’d sign up. Or sign up someone I love.
Currently know some friends’ families with kids suffering harder addictions. I still wouldn’t destroy their sense of individuality by taping their eyelids open.
I see it as, holy crap why are kids doing fentanyl? But I was a kid once, and hope they grow up with some sense of self-respect and responsibility.
I have a bias, in that it seems when amortized, humans keep staying alive despite the newest drug.
Currently know some friends’ families with kids suffering harder addictions. I still wouldn’t destroy their sense of individuality by taping their eyelids open.
I see it as, holy crap why are kids doing fentanyl? But I was a kid once, and hope they grow up with some sense of self-respect and responsibility.
I have a bias, in that it seems when amortized, humans keep staying alive despite the newest drug.
This really falls apart when you consider that not just cooperation but active effort on the part of the participant is required to make this work, otherwise it would be totally ineffective.
Wait until they see my new and improved Ludovico Technique, brought to you by the local ketamine clinic!
Same thoughs here. Let’s hope they don’t play Beethoven during the stimulation.
The view that addiction is a disease is still contentious. Addiction may really be the brain functioning normally, but with abnormal stimuli. Brains are learning organs. Addictive substances don’t rewire it any differently from “normal” stimuli, it just does it faster and it’s harder to undo.
But due to brain plasticity, the most effective treatment for addiction yet discovered is forgetting it, or more precisely, abstinence for a long enough period. (But that usually sounds trite because the problem being solved during treatment is more preventing voluntary relapse, starting the forgetting period over again.)
The fact that the effects don’t last for more than a few months is very concerning, and I have to wonder about the long term side effects of so bluntly changing something as complex as a brain. And even more concerning is the risk of predatory behavior of practitioners preying on the desperation of addicts.
Maybe this is already in everyone’s mind as they read this, but as someone dealing with an addiction, I would not volunteer for this treatment due to these risks. Imagine if the long term effects actually make the addiction worse. And that seems very possible based on how much we actually know about how the brain works.
But due to brain plasticity, the most effective treatment for addiction yet discovered is forgetting it, or more precisely, abstinence for a long enough period. (But that usually sounds trite because the problem being solved during treatment is more preventing voluntary relapse, starting the forgetting period over again.)
The fact that the effects don’t last for more than a few months is very concerning, and I have to wonder about the long term side effects of so bluntly changing something as complex as a brain. And even more concerning is the risk of predatory behavior of practitioners preying on the desperation of addicts.
Maybe this is already in everyone’s mind as they read this, but as someone dealing with an addiction, I would not volunteer for this treatment due to these risks. Imagine if the long term effects actually make the addiction worse. And that seems very possible based on how much we actually know about how the brain works.
And some things take time to forget or are even impossible to forget. Even after years and years of not riding a bike you don't forget how to if you learned it in your childhood. Same with driving a manual car and later switching to automatic transmission.
I'm very hopeful that psychedelics help with (un) learning.
I'm very hopeful that psychedelics help with (un) learning.
abstinence for a long enough period having an effective mechanism of forgetting is actually a pretty interesting concept, do you have any paper recommendations on that line?
Sadly I think addiction is a psychological process induced by ones state of life.
Most addition therapies work well while a person is engaged in it but as soon as the person comes back to their old life style it comes back.
You need to change your life to change the habits otherwise is near impossible unless you have very strong willpower, which most people with addiction don’t.
Most addition therapies work well while a person is engaged in it but as soon as the person comes back to their old life style it comes back.
You need to change your life to change the habits otherwise is near impossible unless you have very strong willpower, which most people with addiction don’t.
On the other hand there are the majority of people living under the same circumstances and are not getting addicted.
I think there is another way of getting rid of addictions: I heard of multiple people that quit smoking form one day to another which usually has a very low chance of success (~3%). One thing they had in common: They pursued their addiction and one day got so horribly sick that something changed. I think the Sinclair method follows a similar approach. Give alcohol addicted people naltrexone which blocks the rewards from ethanol but keeps the nasty side effects and then let them drink as they like.
I think there is another way of getting rid of addictions: I heard of multiple people that quit smoking form one day to another which usually has a very low chance of success (~3%). One thing they had in common: They pursued their addiction and one day got so horribly sick that something changed. I think the Sinclair method follows a similar approach. Give alcohol addicted people naltrexone which blocks the rewards from ethanol but keeps the nasty side effects and then let them drink as they like.
If substances that trigger a dependency with a dangerous withdrawal like Methadone or Alcohol in hard cases are excluded, then addiction and even just drug use is just trying to numb pain to me. It can be physical or emotional in nature.
If the treated choose another activity, like excissive sports or work distract themselves again, how much is won?
If this shortcut works, great.
If the treated choose another activity, like excissive sports or work distract themselves again, how much is won?
If this shortcut works, great.
> then addiction and even just drug use is just trying to numb pain to me
Drugs are rewarding and that’s why people use them. There are many medications that will dull the senses, numb feelings, and reduce emotions. Drug users don’t seek these out and become dependent on them, though, which is why they’re unscheduled.
Ignoring the rewarding/euphoric effects of these drugs is a red herring.
> If the treated choose another activity, like excissive sports or work distract themselves again, how much is won?
Are you asking if doing a lot of sports or work is better than a lifetime of drug addiction? Because that’s not really a question. Drug dependence can be sustained for a while (“functional addicts”) but the cumulative long-term effects across many domains are undeniably worse than playing a lot of sports or doing a lot of work.
Drugs are rewarding and that’s why people use them. There are many medications that will dull the senses, numb feelings, and reduce emotions. Drug users don’t seek these out and become dependent on them, though, which is why they’re unscheduled.
Ignoring the rewarding/euphoric effects of these drugs is a red herring.
> If the treated choose another activity, like excissive sports or work distract themselves again, how much is won?
Are you asking if doing a lot of sports or work is better than a lifetime of drug addiction? Because that’s not really a question. Drug dependence can be sustained for a while (“functional addicts”) but the cumulative long-term effects across many domains are undeniably worse than playing a lot of sports or doing a lot of work.
Check this out. They showed, in the 70s(!), that rats stop consuming opioids when the source of emotional pain is gone.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_park
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_park
When we obtain pleasure from anything, we increase what it’s called “receptor density“. When you have higher receptor density and you stop doing the activity, those neurons don’t fire.
And this is why in Taoism as well as Buddhism, the goal is to lose attachment to all things.
And this is why in Taoism as well as Buddhism, the goal is to lose attachment to all things.
>And this is why in Taoism as well as Buddhism, the goal is to lose attachment to all things.
That's not my understanding of attachment in Eastern religions. It's focused on not being attached to the outcomes of your actions.
That's not my understanding of attachment in Eastern religions. It's focused on not being attached to the outcomes of your actions.
The Tao is infinite, eternal.
Why is it eternal?
It was never born; thus it can never die. Why is it infinite? It has no desires for itself; thus it is present for all beings.
The Master stays behind; that is why she is ahead. She is detached from all things;
that is why she is one with them. Because she has let go of herself, she is perfectly fulfilled.
It was never born; thus it can never die. Why is it infinite? It has no desires for itself; thus it is present for all beings.
The Master stays behind; that is why she is ahead. She is detached from all things;
that is why she is one with them. Because she has let go of herself, she is perfectly fulfilled.
Check out The Prophet by Khalil Gibran, he uses few words to say a lot:
"Your pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding. Even as the stone of the fruit must break, that its heart may stand in the sun, so must you know pain."
https://www.amazon.com/-/de/dp/195483926X/
"Your pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding. Even as the stone of the fruit must break, that its heart may stand in the sun, so must you know pain."
https://www.amazon.com/-/de/dp/195483926X/
So my goal should be to not have a goal. Wait.
To be free from a prison, you have to walk out of the prison. So even your last step to freedom is dictated by your captor.
A goal to end all goals. It is as easy as it sounds, do not even try to have no goal.
A goal to end all goals. It is as easy as it sounds, do not even try to have no goal.
"Exploring Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation as a Potential Treatment for Addiction: Promising Results but More Research Needed"
It seems fMRI guided TMS is the go to option , currently they are relying on approximations but it costs 10k$ for all of those sessions .Ibogaine analogues such as tabernanthalog will be the go to option because of ease of use,cost and time required .
In my opinion and experience, which might not mean much, people react well to addiction therapy while undergoing it. Usually cos they are engaged in non usual processes in their life.
As soon as they return they their usual life old habits kick in.
Only way to have similar lifestyle and drop addiction from it is to dig deep and understand why you have those habits to start with.
You have to replace the triggers for usual behaviour and this is extremely hard for learned behaviours.
To the extent that those who do it, let’s say by doing sport, actually become addicted to sport if they manage to change their original behaviour.
As soon as they return they their usual life old habits kick in.
Only way to have similar lifestyle and drop addiction from it is to dig deep and understand why you have those habits to start with.
You have to replace the triggers for usual behaviour and this is extremely hard for learned behaviours.
To the extent that those who do it, let’s say by doing sport, actually become addicted to sport if they manage to change their original behaviour.
Consider the counter-example, seen on a street near you -- addiction as a response to excessive neural stimulation
I suspect that Betteridge's law of headlines applies, here...
EDIT: They removed the silly question from the HN posting, but it's still the title of the page ("CAN NEURAL STIMULATION ZAP ADDICTION?")
EDIT: They removed the silly question from the HN posting, but it's still the title of the page ("CAN NEURAL STIMULATION ZAP ADDICTION?")
[deleted]
But I thought EMFs can’t do anything to people?
TMS involves strapping a very strong electromagnet directly to your head. Field strengths routinely hit 2-3 Tesla, about a million times stronger than the stray EMF from high-voltage transmission lines.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_magnetic_stimulat... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_magnitude_(magnetic_...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_magnetic_stimulat... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_magnitude_(magnetic_...
I am familiar with TMS. I have a friend who became suicidal after undergoing TMS.
And regarding orders of magnitude, if a lot does something, what is the lowest order if magnitude that does anything? And to who? Does genetics matter? Does genetics matter in TMS? And are short pulses of high Gauss the same as long term exposure to a lower Gauss? Are we comparing apples to apples?
So many questions and so much certainty...
And regarding orders of magnitude, if a lot does something, what is the lowest order if magnitude that does anything? And to who? Does genetics matter? Does genetics matter in TMS? And are short pulses of high Gauss the same as long term exposure to a lower Gauss? Are we comparing apples to apples?
So many questions and so much certainty...
In short: No, they are not the same at all.
I do not work in this field, but have taken a class or two on biomedical engineering.
Some background: Neurons in your brain communicate with adjacent neurons by various chemical signals. But each neuron has an all-or-nothing threshold. At any given moment it's either activating a pulse called an "action-potential" or it's idle and waiting for stimulus from other neurons.
TMS applies very short, very strong magnetic pulses to brain tissue. The affected region is small but contains millions of neurons. By electromagnetic induction, the changing magnetic field creates just enough localized voltage for those neurons to start activating at random without any external stimulus.
Stray EMF is nowhere near strong enough to create a similar effect.
The TMS effect is not strong enough to cause physical damage, but having all those neurons firing at random does have various effects, some good, some bad.
I'm very sorry about your friend. Researchers are trying to learn if and how TMS can be used safely and effectively, but it is still experimental. If a doctor recommended it, they must have exhausted better-understood treatment options.
I do not work in this field, but have taken a class or two on biomedical engineering.
Some background: Neurons in your brain communicate with adjacent neurons by various chemical signals. But each neuron has an all-or-nothing threshold. At any given moment it's either activating a pulse called an "action-potential" or it's idle and waiting for stimulus from other neurons.
TMS applies very short, very strong magnetic pulses to brain tissue. The affected region is small but contains millions of neurons. By electromagnetic induction, the changing magnetic field creates just enough localized voltage for those neurons to start activating at random without any external stimulus.
Stray EMF is nowhere near strong enough to create a similar effect.
The TMS effect is not strong enough to cause physical damage, but having all those neurons firing at random does have various effects, some good, some bad.
I'm very sorry about your friend. Researchers are trying to learn if and how TMS can be used safely and effectively, but it is still experimental. If a doctor recommended it, they must have exhausted better-understood treatment options.
"Stray EMF" is carrying a lot of weight. You know, I have lived in houses and surveyed houses with magnetic fields over 1000nT or 1 µT, simetimes over 2! And this is equal to an exposure of someone working in the electrical supply industry.
https://www.arpansa.gov.au/understanding-radiation/what-is-r...
Effects of much lower levels have already been shown in rats
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.2466/pms.2003.97.3f....
And humans:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S07533...
These magnetic fields will turn into currents in the body and change our biology.
https://www.arpansa.gov.au/understanding-radiation/what-is-r...
Effects of much lower levels have already been shown in rats
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.2466/pms.2003.97.3f....
And humans:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S07533...
These magnetic fields will turn into currents in the body and change our biology.
The falloff of that field strength is very rapid over just a few cm.
Right. It’s not enough to have a field in the house; despite using massive high-energy fields, these processes require a shaved head to get close enough to work effectively.
The measurements I took were inside the house. and the strong magnetic field was coming from the electrical wiring from the house not from overhead powerlines. I think you’re confused about what I was talking about.
Sounds like a scene right out of “A Clockwork Orange” [0]
[0]: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066921/