Should Ukraine Negotiate with Russia?(foreignaffairs.com)
foreignaffairs.com
Should Ukraine Negotiate with Russia?
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/responses/should-america-push-ukraine-negotiate-russia-end-war
20 comments
lol now this question is being asked? now? as much as i appreciate your wishful thinking, this conflict is beyond the scope of reason, and the interests that have propelled us back into the Cold War (more like Luke-warm War) want it that way. good luck with that though. Russia wants a bigger stake in the global economy alongside China, and the West doesn't want that to happen ever! So...
> Russia wants a bigger stake in the global economy alongside China, and the West doesn't want that to happen ever! So...
Russia’s economy is around the size of the economy of Texas. Russia is run by a gang that controls a gas station, and that gang is unfortunately armed with nuclear weapons.
The Russian elites care about two things: maintaining their power and extracting wealth for personal use. Playing a bigger part on the global stage isn’t one of their goals.
P.S. The only reason they’re able to invade Ukraine is the nuclear deterrent. Russia is the prime example for not allowing nuclear proliferation.
Russia’s economy is around the size of the economy of Texas. Russia is run by a gang that controls a gas station, and that gang is unfortunately armed with nuclear weapons.
The Russian elites care about two things: maintaining their power and extracting wealth for personal use. Playing a bigger part on the global stage isn’t one of their goals.
P.S. The only reason they’re able to invade Ukraine is the nuclear deterrent. Russia is the prime example for not allowing nuclear proliferation.
> Russia wants a bigger stake in the global economy
Russia does not give a damn about economy, or stakes in global economy. That is the lesson that the West has painfully learnt in 2022. Russia consciously accepted the loss of access to most of the world's economic pie by starting the invasion.
Russia wants unlimited access to the resources of all the neighboring countries, including land (which is a long way to say "conquering"). It is simply a cancer that wants to grow without limits, just for the sake of it.
Russia does not give a damn about economy, or stakes in global economy. That is the lesson that the West has painfully learnt in 2022. Russia consciously accepted the loss of access to most of the world's economic pie by starting the invasion.
Russia wants unlimited access to the resources of all the neighboring countries, including land (which is a long way to say "conquering"). It is simply a cancer that wants to grow without limits, just for the sake of it.
Russia wants unlimited access to the resources of all the neighboring countries, including land
LOL. Russia has more resources and land than all of the EU combined. Russia needs people, not extra land and resources. The lack of resources is why the EU is rapidly de-industrialising, and why Germany's industries are moving to China and the US.
LOL. Russia has more resources and land than all of the EU combined. Russia needs people, not extra land and resources. The lack of resources is why the EU is rapidly de-industrialising, and why Germany's industries are moving to China and the US.
> lol now this question is being asked? now? as much as i appreciate your wishful thinking, this conflict is beyond the scope of reason, and the interests that have propelled us back into the Cold War (more like Luke-warm War) want it that way. good luck with that though. Russia wants a bigger stake in the global economy alongside China, and the West doesn't want that to happen ever! So...
Ukraine and the west tried to negotiate before the war started, including having Ukraine not in NATO, but it wasn't enough for Putin so he invaded regardless.
The only one who wants this war is Russia.
Ukraine and the west tried to negotiate before the war started, including having Ukraine not in NATO, but it wasn't enough for Putin so he invaded regardless.
The only one who wants this war is Russia.
but we're this level 1 to 3 you're talking about.
this is endgame level.
i feel like this drum has been beaten many times before.
Russia wants the war and resources. yet they're military resources are dwindling, and Ukraine is getting hand me downs from the West. it's all very circular and confusing. either that or the media is just blurring all the details. i give up. all i want is an end to this bullshit. all of it!
this is endgame level.
i feel like this drum has been beaten many times before.
Russia wants the war and resources. yet they're military resources are dwindling, and Ukraine is getting hand me downs from the West. it's all very circular and confusing. either that or the media is just blurring all the details. i give up. all i want is an end to this bullshit. all of it!
Yes, suppose someone slaps someone else in the face then say they were pushed to do it then argue for "peace negotiations" while continuing to slap them in the face
Maybe with this description, some sheltered linguists can understand it (if they make an effort, of course)
Maybe with this description, some sheltered linguists can understand it (if they make an effort, of course)
An armistice like the DMZ will leave nobody happy. Like rationing, it's held to be the least worst solution to the situation and equally untenable to all parties. But they both have to want to, and I don't think they do.
Having said that, the DMZ has kept the peace tolerably well if peace is what you seek.
This isn't about justice, or a just war, or just desserts. It's about what to do next. I'm sure a lot of people would say "hell no" but rumours of health aside, Putin isn't going away and has nukes. I'd rather he did go away btw and I do not see why Crimea is more Russian than Ukrainian.
Having said that, the DMZ has kept the peace tolerably well if peace is what you seek.
This isn't about justice, or a just war, or just desserts. It's about what to do next. I'm sure a lot of people would say "hell no" but rumours of health aside, Putin isn't going away and has nukes. I'd rather he did go away btw and I do not see why Crimea is more Russian than Ukrainian.
"I do not see why Crimea is more Russian than Ukrainian"
Because it was Russian for almost 200 years before Khruschev stole it from Russia and 'gifted' to the Ukraine.
Because according to the Western polls after the reunification with Russia overwhelming majority of Crimeans approve of it.
And last but not least, the Ukraine lost any moral right to govern Crimea after cutting water and electricity supply to the citizens of the peninsula.
Because it was Russian for almost 200 years before Khruschev stole it from Russia and 'gifted' to the Ukraine.
Because according to the Western polls after the reunification with Russia overwhelming majority of Crimeans approve of it.
And last but not least, the Ukraine lost any moral right to govern Crimea after cutting water and electricity supply to the citizens of the peninsula.
> Because it was Russian for almost 200 years before Khruschev stole it from Russia and 'gifted' to the Ukraine.
And it was ottoman for how many years before that?. Nothing was stolen from Russia, I know Russia has a lot of historical grievances (even with itself) but this was done according to the laws at the time.
> Because according to the Western polls after the reunification with Russia overwhelming majority of Crimeans approve of it.
I presume this is similar to the way that the Crimean council voted for the annexation with guns to their head.
> And last but not least, the Ukraine lost any moral right to govern Crimea after cutting water and electricity supply to the citizens of the peninsula.
So Ukraine must provide weather to their enemy, an enemy that is trying to end their existence.
Do you want them perhaps to also feed and bathe their enemy too?.
Crimea had its water cut off as a sign to Russia.
And it was ottoman for how many years before that?. Nothing was stolen from Russia, I know Russia has a lot of historical grievances (even with itself) but this was done according to the laws at the time.
> Because according to the Western polls after the reunification with Russia overwhelming majority of Crimeans approve of it.
I presume this is similar to the way that the Crimean council voted for the annexation with guns to their head.
> And last but not least, the Ukraine lost any moral right to govern Crimea after cutting water and electricity supply to the citizens of the peninsula.
So Ukraine must provide weather to their enemy, an enemy that is trying to end their existence.
Do you want them perhaps to also feed and bathe their enemy too?.
Crimea had its water cut off as a sign to Russia.
Because it was Russian for almost 200 years
But in name only, you meant to say.
Because it was populated by a very solid majority of Crimean Tatars (and very few Russians) up until 1860 or so, you mean to say. That is, until shortly after the end of that war that didn't work out so well for Russia.
And then by a solid majority of non-Russians -- mostly Crimean Tatars, along with a whole host of other folks, (including Germans, Jews, Greeks, Armenians, Bulgarians, Poles - and of course, Ukrainians) until the summer of 1944, you meant to say.
At which time a magical event happened which would finally give the peninsula a majority Russian population.
Perhaps you would like to tell us what that event was?
The Ukraine lost any moral right to govern Crimea after cutting water and electricity supply to the citizens of the peninsula.
The moment the mafia-like entities which run the Peninsula decided to throw their lot with a foreign power that was, at that time, conducting a war of aggression against Ukraine in its eastern regions -- they naturally lost any right to the benefits of the North Crimean Canal.
But in name only, you meant to say.
Because it was populated by a very solid majority of Crimean Tatars (and very few Russians) up until 1860 or so, you mean to say. That is, until shortly after the end of that war that didn't work out so well for Russia.
And then by a solid majority of non-Russians -- mostly Crimean Tatars, along with a whole host of other folks, (including Germans, Jews, Greeks, Armenians, Bulgarians, Poles - and of course, Ukrainians) until the summer of 1944, you meant to say.
At which time a magical event happened which would finally give the peninsula a majority Russian population.
Perhaps you would like to tell us what that event was?
The Ukraine lost any moral right to govern Crimea after cutting water and electricity supply to the citizens of the peninsula.
The moment the mafia-like entities which run the Peninsula decided to throw their lot with a foreign power that was, at that time, conducting a war of aggression against Ukraine in its eastern regions -- they naturally lost any right to the benefits of the North Crimean Canal.
Since the Kiev regime (whose SBU is tightly interconnected with the Azov nationalists) directly funds and provides with weaponry such as 152/155mm artillery and shells (including cluster munitions) to their organized right wing nationalist groups who persistently conduct warcrime after warcrime for the regime, they lost any legitimate claim to the Donbass. The Azovs have shelled civilans in Dontesk for now nearly a decade and on a daily to weekly basis.
Imagine if China funded and armed right wing nationalist groups, who build forts on artificial islands near Taiwan and shelled Taipei weekly for nine years straight to "punish" seperatist citizens of the Repubic of China.
If that happened, you can be pretty sure China would loose any legitimate claim to Taiwan that it once had.
Imagine if China funded and armed right wing nationalist groups, who build forts on artificial islands near Taiwan and shelled Taipei weekly for nine years straight to "punish" seperatist citizens of the Repubic of China.
If that happened, you can be pretty sure China would loose any legitimate claim to Taiwan that it once had.
Wow it's been 45 years since they stopped shelling Taiwan, you're kind of bringing up old history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Taiwan_Strait_Crisis#In...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Taiwan_Strait_Crisis#In...
"But in name only"
By the same logic, Crimea could never be Ukrainian more than 'by the name only'. [0]
"a magical event happened which would finally give the peninsula a majority Russian population"
There's nothing magical in Stalin's crimes which were condemned in the USSR and later in Russia many times.
"The moment the mafia-like entities ... they naturally lost any right to the benefits of the North Crimean Canal"
So you are justifying cutting water and electricity to the whole civilian population of Crimea by Russian support for pro-Russia separatists elsewhere? That's exactly what I was talking about when I said that the Ukraine lost any moral right to govern Crimea.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Crimea
By the same logic, Crimea could never be Ukrainian more than 'by the name only'. [0]
"a magical event happened which would finally give the peninsula a majority Russian population"
There's nothing magical in Stalin's crimes which were condemned in the USSR and later in Russia many times.
"The moment the mafia-like entities ... they naturally lost any right to the benefits of the North Crimean Canal"
So you are justifying cutting water and electricity to the whole civilian population of Crimea by Russian support for pro-Russia separatists elsewhere? That's exactly what I was talking about when I said that the Ukraine lost any moral right to govern Crimea.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Crimea
agrcola(1)
This one-sided approach seems strange.