In California, Car Buyers Are Choosing Electric over Gasoline in Record Numbers(blog.ucsusa.org)
blog.ucsusa.org
In California, Car Buyers Are Choosing Electric over Gasoline in Record Numbers
https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichmuth/in-california-car-buyers-are-choosing-electricity-over-gasoline-in-record-numbers/
143 comments
Can you elaborate on what makes them _far superior_?
I'll add another feature I really like: preconditioning while still parked in my garage. Its super hot here in the summer. My garage will still be like 90F in the morning. I've set my car to cool itself down when its time to leave though and it does it all from the wall power so it doesn't even sacrifice any range. So while my ICE would still be >90F inside when I first hop in, my EV is 70F and ready to go. I can't do this with my ICE as it would emit tons of carbon monoxide.
They're also not nearly as wasteful energy-wise. As mentioned its stupid hot out here. Sometimes I need to park and wait for something such as drive up to go or waiting on my spouse to just run into a store to grab something quick or waiting out front of someone's house while I'm picking them up. I'm going to want to keep the AC running, because its like 110F at a high humidity outside with a bright sun beating down. In my ICE, its wasting tons of gas sitting there idling, probably less than 10% of the energy being consumed is actually going to cool the cabin. Most of it is just spinning metal around, pushing fluids through things, and throwing off tons of waste heat (I don't need any more heat, its already hot outside!). Meanwhile my EV could sit running the AC for a long time without making a pretty big dent in its energy usage. And when its sitting there running the AC and the radio, almost all the energy is being used running the AC and the stereo. This makes the per-minute cost of idling massively cheaper, a cost a lot of people don't think about.
They're also not nearly as wasteful energy-wise. As mentioned its stupid hot out here. Sometimes I need to park and wait for something such as drive up to go or waiting on my spouse to just run into a store to grab something quick or waiting out front of someone's house while I'm picking them up. I'm going to want to keep the AC running, because its like 110F at a high humidity outside with a bright sun beating down. In my ICE, its wasting tons of gas sitting there idling, probably less than 10% of the energy being consumed is actually going to cool the cabin. Most of it is just spinning metal around, pushing fluids through things, and throwing off tons of waste heat (I don't need any more heat, its already hot outside!). Meanwhile my EV could sit running the AC for a long time without making a pretty big dent in its energy usage. And when its sitting there running the AC and the radio, almost all the energy is being used running the AC and the stereo. This makes the per-minute cost of idling massively cheaper, a cost a lot of people don't think about.
"Preconditioning" an EV in the garage is foolish: you're transferring heat from inside the car to the garage and you're heating up the battery, too!
The battery is in the cooling loop; I'm pretty sure its involved in the preconditioning if necessary.
You're right I'm adding a bit of extra heat load to the garage. I'm not about to sit in my garage for a bit though, I'm only stepping into it for a few minutes. And then the sun is going to rise and bake it back up to almost 100F again in an hour or so anyways. Making the temp go from 90F to 92-94F in there just doesn't make that much of a difference in the grand scheme of things.
And it is definitely a useful thing to do, as it takes a lot of work to get the car cool, energy that now doesn't have to come from the battery. Its an extra kWh or so that doesn't come from the battery.
You're right I'm adding a bit of extra heat load to the garage. I'm not about to sit in my garage for a bit though, I'm only stepping into it for a few minutes. And then the sun is going to rise and bake it back up to almost 100F again in an hour or so anyways. Making the temp go from 90F to 92-94F in there just doesn't make that much of a difference in the grand scheme of things.
And it is definitely a useful thing to do, as it takes a lot of work to get the car cool, energy that now doesn't have to come from the battery. Its an extra kWh or so that doesn't come from the battery.
> In my ICE, its wasting tons of gas sitting there idling...
This was surprising to me, Tech Ingredients tested the fuel consumption of idling ICE vehicles and found them to be incredibly efficient while idling.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNiapuA0yTQ
For example you'd waste more gas dropping your kid off at practice, driving home, and returning to pick them up then if you just sat idling in the parking lot waiting for an hour.
FWIW, I own 2 EVs and seeing people idling in their ICE vehicles still annoys me.
This was surprising to me, Tech Ingredients tested the fuel consumption of idling ICE vehicles and found them to be incredibly efficient while idling.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNiapuA0yTQ
For example you'd waste more gas dropping your kid off at practice, driving home, and returning to pick them up then if you just sat idling in the parking lot waiting for an hour.
FWIW, I own 2 EVs and seeing people idling in their ICE vehicles still annoys me.
> found them to be incredibly efficient while idling.
Its not really that they're incredibly efficient, its that the energy needed to move you home and back again overall is massively more than what you'd use idling. Its still a very inefficient use of energy, from the perspective of the amount of energy in the gasoline being burned versus the actual useful work you got out of it in the end.
In that video the 2012 Mazda 3 used $1.53 in energy cost to do pretty much nothing at all. There was some snow on the ground but it was otherwise sunny, so I doubt it really needed to try and heat that much but I don't really know the air temp. That pickup used $4.10 in energy cost to once again also do practically nothing. The Outback used $2.95.
My EV has a 68kWh useful battery pack. Idling for two hours in extreme heat might use 10%, but I doubt that. I'll regularly precondition for 15-30 minutes when its hot outside to bring it down to temp (way more work bring it down from 100 than keeping it 70) and it normally only eats a few percent of the battery, but we'll err on the high side it'll be fine. I pay ~$0.10/kWh. 68 * 10% * $0.10 = $0.068. And even then, if it was a decent-ish day outside (sunny, not cold wind or extreme heat, probably like in the video) my EV would have used probably less than 2% keeping the stereo and DRLs on for a couple of hours.
My EV is pretty similar to that Outback. So for about the same idling that Outback would cost almost $3 while my EV would cost less than $0.10.
Its not really that they're incredibly efficient, its that the energy needed to move you home and back again overall is massively more than what you'd use idling. Its still a very inefficient use of energy, from the perspective of the amount of energy in the gasoline being burned versus the actual useful work you got out of it in the end.
In that video the 2012 Mazda 3 used $1.53 in energy cost to do pretty much nothing at all. There was some snow on the ground but it was otherwise sunny, so I doubt it really needed to try and heat that much but I don't really know the air temp. That pickup used $4.10 in energy cost to once again also do practically nothing. The Outback used $2.95.
My EV has a 68kWh useful battery pack. Idling for two hours in extreme heat might use 10%, but I doubt that. I'll regularly precondition for 15-30 minutes when its hot outside to bring it down to temp (way more work bring it down from 100 than keeping it 70) and it normally only eats a few percent of the battery, but we'll err on the high side it'll be fine. I pay ~$0.10/kWh. 68 * 10% * $0.10 = $0.068. And even then, if it was a decent-ish day outside (sunny, not cold wind or extreme heat, probably like in the video) my EV would have used probably less than 2% keeping the stereo and DRLs on for a couple of hours.
My EV is pretty similar to that Outback. So for about the same idling that Outback would cost almost $3 while my EV would cost less than $0.10.
I wasn't attempting to say an ICE more efficient or as efficient as an EV, we all know they are no where near approaching similar efficiency. I was just pointing out that for an ICE idling is their most efficient state next to being shut off and is significantly more efficient that when moving.
We tend to think of ICE efficiency in terms of MPG and naturally assume that their idling efficiency to be similar to their maximum driving efficiency and that's incorrect.
We tend to think of ICE efficiency in terms of MPG and naturally assume that their idling efficiency to be similar to their maximum driving efficiency and that's incorrect.
Very little imho. All cars are becoming a nightmare to repair and are getting filled with more compute than anyone should need. Thus, I think they all sort of suck post 2018. I don't like carrying a smartphone and I certainly don't want to drive one.
In theory, EVs aren't overburdened with emissions standards and aren't really road-trip machines (can't put a marine gas tank in the trunk to increase range...) so they shouldn't be any more complicated than a small mobile robot or electric skateboard. Installing a back-up camera and OBD2 port off the bus at the factory doesn't require a small server farm and LTE connection.
All the other comments seem like people getting stoked about new thing is new and ohhh shiny automagic feature with dubious productivity benefit over time.
If people really wanted dependable, then I'd suggest something that a standard human can comprehend and wrench on (even if the failure rate per mile is a bit higher). Perhaps even something that can be fixed with parts created in a garage. If they wanted to minimize environmental footprint too, they can always buy a good steel frame cargo bicycle and durable weatherproof clothing.
I do get the speed and handling angle, however consider the age old question. Is it more fun to drive fast car slow, or slow car fast?
In theory, EVs aren't overburdened with emissions standards and aren't really road-trip machines (can't put a marine gas tank in the trunk to increase range...) so they shouldn't be any more complicated than a small mobile robot or electric skateboard. Installing a back-up camera and OBD2 port off the bus at the factory doesn't require a small server farm and LTE connection.
All the other comments seem like people getting stoked about new thing is new and ohhh shiny automagic feature with dubious productivity benefit over time.
If people really wanted dependable, then I'd suggest something that a standard human can comprehend and wrench on (even if the failure rate per mile is a bit higher). Perhaps even something that can be fixed with parts created in a garage. If they wanted to minimize environmental footprint too, they can always buy a good steel frame cargo bicycle and durable weatherproof clothing.
I do get the speed and handling angle, however consider the age old question. Is it more fun to drive fast car slow, or slow car fast?
> can't put a marine gas tank in the trunk to increase range...
Yeah like that's a necessary feature for most drivers...
> they can always buy a good steel frame cargo bicycle
But where do I put the 12 gallon marine gas tank on the cargo bicycle?? We just established that's an absolute necessity. Clearly not an acceptable form of transportation! How else am I going to get this thing to go on my daily 1,400mi trip that normal people do all the time??
> getting filled with more compute than anyone should need
Anyone should need is the bar here? We existed before electrical lighting, nobody really needs it.
> Is it more fun to drive fast car slow, or slow car fast?
I definitely think its more fun to have 100% of your torque available at 0RPMs. My EV isn't really a "fast car" from the perspective of high speeds or extreme handling. Its probably not going to win many races at a track. But driving it around town? Loads of fun, way closer to the "slow car fast" kind of feeling than the "fast car slow".
Yeah like that's a necessary feature for most drivers...
> they can always buy a good steel frame cargo bicycle
But where do I put the 12 gallon marine gas tank on the cargo bicycle?? We just established that's an absolute necessity. Clearly not an acceptable form of transportation! How else am I going to get this thing to go on my daily 1,400mi trip that normal people do all the time??
> getting filled with more compute than anyone should need
Anyone should need is the bar here? We existed before electrical lighting, nobody really needs it.
> Is it more fun to drive fast car slow, or slow car fast?
I definitely think its more fun to have 100% of your torque available at 0RPMs. My EV isn't really a "fast car" from the perspective of high speeds or extreme handling. Its probably not going to win many races at a track. But driving it around town? Loads of fun, way closer to the "slow car fast" kind of feeling than the "fast car slow".
>But where do I put the 12 gallon marine gas tank on the cargo bicycle?
You ratchet strap it to the top of the 'long tail' and fill it with food. Duh. That tank can easily carry enough calories for a cross country trek.
>Anyone should need is the bar here?
Just because we can doesn't mean we should. Restraining technological development to preserve certain aspects of the human experience seems reasonable to me (so long as we aren't able to substantially re-engineer the human genome and change the baseline we've enjoyed for 30k + years).
Plenty of people argue that the car in general has had negative sociological effects. Not going to fight that one here as I like vehicles, but I do think that if people have to drive regularly, it wouldn't hurt to either be more in-tune with the experience or let a robot handle it entirely so that the time can be used for 'more productive purposes' (note, I doubt that people would do much with the time other than entertain themselves, but w/e). Business calls without distraction perhaps? Engage with kids during transport instead of pacifying them with devices?
You ratchet strap it to the top of the 'long tail' and fill it with food. Duh. That tank can easily carry enough calories for a cross country trek.
>Anyone should need is the bar here?
Just because we can doesn't mean we should. Restraining technological development to preserve certain aspects of the human experience seems reasonable to me (so long as we aren't able to substantially re-engineer the human genome and change the baseline we've enjoyed for 30k + years).
Plenty of people argue that the car in general has had negative sociological effects. Not going to fight that one here as I like vehicles, but I do think that if people have to drive regularly, it wouldn't hurt to either be more in-tune with the experience or let a robot handle it entirely so that the time can be used for 'more productive purposes' (note, I doubt that people would do much with the time other than entertain themselves, but w/e). Business calls without distraction perhaps? Engage with kids during transport instead of pacifying them with devices?
In my experience driving Tesla vehicles (Model S & Y):
- Super convenient to never go to a gas station during my every day routine driving.
- Single pedal driving takes less effort overall. I prefer it at least.
- Generally much better performance (acceleration, breaking) at the same price point. The car is so fun. Much more confident making yellow lights and overtaking compared to gas cars.
- Very smooth because no gear shifting. The S is particularly spooky because it sounds about the same in the car driving 60mph and 90mph so it’s really easy to go 90 without noticing if you’re expecting engine noise to hint you’re going fast.
- Less routine maintenance like oil change
- This could be common to all modern cars, but I love having infinity car keys to share with family and visitors since any phone can be a car key
- This could be common to all modern cars, but I love pre-air conditioning the car from the checkout line of the grocery store
- This could be common to all modern cars, but I like that I can leave my dog in the car and know she’ll be cool & comfortable, and people won’t worry about her because the car display shows “dog mode aircon is on!” on the large display.
My complaints, which are about trim and not the drive:
- No Apple CarPlay. Boo. The built in thingy is much better than the average automaker but Apple stuff is better still.
- No over door hand holds :(
- I prefer tactile controls to touchscreen for everything. I will be looking at non Tesla options in the future for this reason.
- Super convenient to never go to a gas station during my every day routine driving.
- Single pedal driving takes less effort overall. I prefer it at least.
- Generally much better performance (acceleration, breaking) at the same price point. The car is so fun. Much more confident making yellow lights and overtaking compared to gas cars.
- Very smooth because no gear shifting. The S is particularly spooky because it sounds about the same in the car driving 60mph and 90mph so it’s really easy to go 90 without noticing if you’re expecting engine noise to hint you’re going fast.
- Less routine maintenance like oil change
- This could be common to all modern cars, but I love having infinity car keys to share with family and visitors since any phone can be a car key
- This could be common to all modern cars, but I love pre-air conditioning the car from the checkout line of the grocery store
- This could be common to all modern cars, but I like that I can leave my dog in the car and know she’ll be cool & comfortable, and people won’t worry about her because the car display shows “dog mode aircon is on!” on the large display.
My complaints, which are about trim and not the drive:
- No Apple CarPlay. Boo. The built in thingy is much better than the average automaker but Apple stuff is better still.
- No over door hand holds :(
- I prefer tactile controls to touchscreen for everything. I will be looking at non Tesla options in the future for this reason.
That key thing is really handy if you need to make use of it. For Reasons, my friends and I had a period with fewer cars than people who needed one, but one was a Tesla. We spent far less time coordinating the passing off of the key for the Tesla because we just didn't have to, as opposed to a whole rigamarole with having to pass around the keys to the other cars. It's enough that I want to retrofit my car with an electronic lock some how, but that doesn't seem to be a thing, so I'll have to settle for an ordinary combo lockbox hidden away, which feels much less secure.
> so it’s really easy to go 90 without noticing if you’re expecting engine noise to hint you’re going fast
I do have to say, this is one big reason why I think those cabin noise fake engine sounds isn't entirely a bad idea. Its a useful clue to many. One doesn't need to make it very loud and obnoxious, maybe only play it near the driver or something and for sure have it be an optional thing, but the concept isn't entirely without merit.
People should be using all their senses for driving. Giving auditory feedback can be very useful!
I do have to say, this is one big reason why I think those cabin noise fake engine sounds isn't entirely a bad idea. Its a useful clue to many. One doesn't need to make it very loud and obnoxious, maybe only play it near the driver or something and for sure have it be an optional thing, but the concept isn't entirely without merit.
People should be using all their senses for driving. Giving auditory feedback can be very useful!
Not the Parent Author, but have been driving an EV since 2018:
Superior Qualities (in general):
- Less moving parts (less stuff to break)
- No oil changes
- No gas stops
- Lower center of mass = better stability and crash performance (moose test)etc
- Regenerative braking extends the life of your brake pads
- Lower total cost of ownership for comparable ICE platform
- Nearly 100% torque availability from zero RPM
- Full battery every morning if you remember to plug it in
- Reduced exposure to combustion byproducts
- Financial Subsidies and other Government incentives (HOV Lane access)
- You move the emissions from the consumer to the electricity producer who are more likely to have the funds to actually start working on viable greenhouse gas reduction strategies
Inferior Qualities:
- Heavier
- Take longer to "re-fuel" on road trips
- Regenerative braking and heavier vehicle reduces the life of your tires
- Eventually the HV battery will degrade to the point that it might not be practical for your use case
Superior Qualities (in general):
- Less moving parts (less stuff to break)
- No oil changes
- No gas stops
- Lower center of mass = better stability and crash performance (moose test)etc
- Regenerative braking extends the life of your brake pads
- Lower total cost of ownership for comparable ICE platform
- Nearly 100% torque availability from zero RPM
- Full battery every morning if you remember to plug it in
- Reduced exposure to combustion byproducts
- Financial Subsidies and other Government incentives (HOV Lane access)
- You move the emissions from the consumer to the electricity producer who are more likely to have the funds to actually start working on viable greenhouse gas reduction strategies
Inferior Qualities:
- Heavier
- Take longer to "re-fuel" on road trips
- Regenerative braking and heavier vehicle reduces the life of your tires
- Eventually the HV battery will degrade to the point that it might not be practical for your use case
> Regenerative braking and heavier vehicle reduces the life of your tires
I have never heard that regen breaking reduces the life of your tires (they do reduce brake pad replacements though) - until recently my 5 year old Ford Focus EV @60k miles didn't have to replace any of the stock tires - which is better than I'd have expected for other vehicles.
I have never heard that regen breaking reduces the life of your tires (they do reduce brake pad replacements though) - until recently my 5 year old Ford Focus EV @60k miles didn't have to replace any of the stock tires - which is better than I'd have expected for other vehicles.
Some combination of increased weight, increased torque, or removal of the "coasting" state from EV's leads many folks to experience reduced life on their tires compared to ICE platforms. Obviously your experience may differ, but in my experience it is common enough to mention to provide a fair viewpoint.
Can regenerative braking be easily turned off on most EVs? That is the one feature that I absolutely do not want and has kept me away from looking at any EV so far.
Regen braking != single pedal driving.
Regen braking can be done by being blended in on the brake pedal. This gives a near identical feel as driving a regular car, where it doesn't really start pulling power to the battery until you press the brake pedal. Once it reaches its max draw it starts to bring in the brake pads.
Many EVs make single pedal driving modes optional, with some of them not even really having it as a feature at all. Some just essentially have it like its just a medium level of engine braking but will never come to a complete stop on its own.
Regen braking is a big part of why EVs and hybrids can be as efficient as they are; they capture all that energy that normally bleeds off as heat when you're driving around the city. Since I've established you can still have a normal accelerator/brake feel as a regular car while still having regen, what reasons would you have for not having it?
Also, I'd highly recommend actually giving single pedal driving a decent shake before fully judging it. Its incredibly nice just being able to control my speed with a single pedal instead of having to use two pedals to achieve the same end result. And then when I take my foot off the accelerator, I'm fully stopped without having to hold down a brake. I get many cars have an "auto hold" feature but I've yet to feel one as smooth as cars with good single pedal driving and I just can't seem to trust it in the same way.
Regen braking can be done by being blended in on the brake pedal. This gives a near identical feel as driving a regular car, where it doesn't really start pulling power to the battery until you press the brake pedal. Once it reaches its max draw it starts to bring in the brake pads.
Many EVs make single pedal driving modes optional, with some of them not even really having it as a feature at all. Some just essentially have it like its just a medium level of engine braking but will never come to a complete stop on its own.
Regen braking is a big part of why EVs and hybrids can be as efficient as they are; they capture all that energy that normally bleeds off as heat when you're driving around the city. Since I've established you can still have a normal accelerator/brake feel as a regular car while still having regen, what reasons would you have for not having it?
Also, I'd highly recommend actually giving single pedal driving a decent shake before fully judging it. Its incredibly nice just being able to control my speed with a single pedal instead of having to use two pedals to achieve the same end result. And then when I take my foot off the accelerator, I'm fully stopped without having to hold down a brake. I get many cars have an "auto hold" feature but I've yet to feel one as smooth as cars with good single pedal driving and I just can't seem to trust it in the same way.
I love it, but you can easily turn it off, and should when you are on the freeway (you'll get better mileage coasting). On my EV (BMW i4), it is just a small horizontal motion on the shifter to go between D (no regen) to B (regen). The BMW also has AutoH, but it seems mostly useless in contrast to regen braking.
Out of interest, why do you dislike regenerative brakes? This is actually an old and well proven technology.
* More reliable: They're much simpler and have many fewer moving parts.
* Lower maintenance: There's no need to keep a complicated engine with lots of moving parts properly lubricated.
* Much quieter: No sound, even when accelerating like a race car.
* More pleasant: You never again have to pump smelly, poisonous, explosive liquids.
* More storage: Two trunks!
* Better performance: Faster acceleration, smoother driving, better handling -- "grips the road" (most of the weight is underneath).
I could keep going...
* Lower maintenance: There's no need to keep a complicated engine with lots of moving parts properly lubricated.
* Much quieter: No sound, even when accelerating like a race car.
* More pleasant: You never again have to pump smelly, poisonous, explosive liquids.
* More storage: Two trunks!
* Better performance: Faster acceleration, smoother driving, better handling -- "grips the road" (most of the weight is underneath).
I could keep going...
> * Much quieter: No sound, even when accelerating like a race car.
It's funny but people actually complain that EVs are noisy because without the droning white noise of ICE you end up hearing everything else going on.
It's funny but people actually complain that EVs are noisy because without the droning white noise of ICE you end up hearing everything else going on.
Its like 100F outside every day here these days. I've had so many people say "wait I thought you said its electric why can I still hear it?" when its just the AC running.
Like, yeah, its 100F outside, the condenser coil still has a fan on it and is trying to reject a lot of heat and there's still a compressor churning away.
Like, yeah, its 100F outside, the condenser coil still has a fan on it and is trying to reject a lot of heat and there's still a compressor churning away.
They are better drives. The acceleration is really nice. Not having to put gas into it is also an advantage, but honestly I bought mine just because it was more fun to drive.
Can't speak for OP but my wife just bought a new Mach-E and I drove it for the first time yesterday. Smoothest ride I've ever had in a car, hands down.
I could itemize, but several people already did, so I'll add a different perspective.
Some products are so much better that, when you try them out, you realize there was a quantum leap there. Like when I tried a capacitive touchscreen phone: it was obvious Nokia style phones were deprecated.
Electric traction is just like that. Obviously better. Rent one for a couple of days, and I'm sure you'll reach the same conclusion.
Some products are so much better that, when you try them out, you realize there was a quantum leap there. Like when I tried a capacitive touchscreen phone: it was obvious Nokia style phones were deprecated.
Electric traction is just like that. Obviously better. Rent one for a couple of days, and I'm sure you'll reach the same conclusion.
And e-bikes are outpacing EVs:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-21/u-s-e-bik...
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-21/u-s-e-bik...
That's excellent news.
I've just learned to bike (I've been living in the Netherlands for over 3 years and just months ago started biking), and I deeply regret not getting an e-bike.
I also bought a car last year (EV / Tesla). Coming from a culture where biking isn't that popular, I was in doubt about whether to get an e-bike or a regular bike. I decided to go with the cheaper option (because I also have a car), and thanks to the fact the Netherlands is flat, I can do most day chores now by riding my bike... but... if I had opted to get the e-bike, I'd actually only be using the car when the weather is pretty bad and when I want to travel to someplace really far away.
People underestimate how useful a bike (and, especially, an e-bike) is. With the right infrastructure, at least!
I've just learned to bike (I've been living in the Netherlands for over 3 years and just months ago started biking), and I deeply regret not getting an e-bike.
I also bought a car last year (EV / Tesla). Coming from a culture where biking isn't that popular, I was in doubt about whether to get an e-bike or a regular bike. I decided to go with the cheaper option (because I also have a car), and thanks to the fact the Netherlands is flat, I can do most day chores now by riding my bike... but... if I had opted to get the e-bike, I'd actually only be using the car when the weather is pretty bad and when I want to travel to someplace really far away.
People underestimate how useful a bike (and, especially, an e-bike) is. With the right infrastructure, at least!
>>With the right infrastructure, at least!
That —the right infrastructure— is the key!
I live in the northeast US, and used to road bike very heavily both as off-season training for ski racing and also road bicycle racing. I had a few close calls at the time, but now, the traffic is so much heavier and more aggressive that I don't bike on the roads at all, only mtn biking (small exception for short road segments of a longer mtn bike ride in a very rural area).
I have a 5mi commute to work which would be perfect for an e-bike or e-scooter, but the way the cars behave, I feel like it is just playing Russian Roulette.
It's really sad, as either better infrastructure or a better trained/more considerate driver population would fix it, but neither is likely soon.
So, I'm stuck hauling two tons of steel to and fro every day just to get me and my laptop to work and to home...
That —the right infrastructure— is the key!
I live in the northeast US, and used to road bike very heavily both as off-season training for ski racing and also road bicycle racing. I had a few close calls at the time, but now, the traffic is so much heavier and more aggressive that I don't bike on the roads at all, only mtn biking (small exception for short road segments of a longer mtn bike ride in a very rural area).
I have a 5mi commute to work which would be perfect for an e-bike or e-scooter, but the way the cars behave, I feel like it is just playing Russian Roulette.
It's really sad, as either better infrastructure or a better trained/more considerate driver population would fix it, but neither is likely soon.
So, I'm stuck hauling two tons of steel to and fro every day just to get me and my laptop to work and to home...
Hey, if you ride enough, the fitness would render an e-bike mostly superfluous.
I'm a big fan of either though, or really any non-car transit. The experience of the Netherlands show how possible, practical, and economical a combination of cycling, walking, and public transit can be. It used to be car-focused like most other countries, but a concerted effort changed that.
So many people balk at the cost of non-car infrastructure while ignoring the enormous cost of car infrastructure, as well as the attendant environmental, health, and social effects.
I'm a big fan of either though, or really any non-car transit. The experience of the Netherlands show how possible, practical, and economical a combination of cycling, walking, and public transit can be. It used to be car-focused like most other countries, but a concerted effort changed that.
So many people balk at the cost of non-car infrastructure while ignoring the enormous cost of car infrastructure, as well as the attendant environmental, health, and social effects.
> Hey, if you ride enough, the fitness would render an e-bike mostly superfluous.
Nice!
I love this YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/notjustbikes If you don't know it, take a look!
I just wish public transport here was more reliable and available during more hours. Yeah, it might be one of the best in the world, but it's not without problems... For example, after midnight don't trust you'll be able to get back home until 7a.m. if you're far away.
Nice!
I love this YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/notjustbikes If you don't know it, take a look!
I just wish public transport here was more reliable and available during more hours. Yeah, it might be one of the best in the world, but it's not without problems... For example, after midnight don't trust you'll be able to get back home until 7a.m. if you're far away.
> I decided to go with the cheaper option.
Check this out, they're NL based. No relationship with them. One of my bike forum colleagues bought one after using several non electric bikes and is very happy with it. It's not overly expensive, it's slick, light, fast, has lights, belt drive, you can mount a rack, fenders, kickstand. The only downside is that the battery is not removable to charge indoors.
https://www.tenways.com/products/cgo600
The best part of NL is that it's so flat, you don't actually need an e-bike (unless you're over 60) and you get to exercise more as a bonus.
Check this out, they're NL based. No relationship with them. One of my bike forum colleagues bought one after using several non electric bikes and is very happy with it. It's not overly expensive, it's slick, light, fast, has lights, belt drive, you can mount a rack, fenders, kickstand. The only downside is that the battery is not removable to charge indoors.
https://www.tenways.com/products/cgo600
The best part of NL is that it's so flat, you don't actually need an e-bike (unless you're over 60) and you get to exercise more as a bonus.
Thanks for the tip. The bike I purchased was a Trek District 1. I love it.
When I was looking for what to buy, my other options were the Trek District+ 1/2.
Yeah, The Netherlands is flat, which helps a lot, but I live in Scheveningen, really close to some hills! Still, at least I'm getting plenty of exercise, no matter how lazy I am sometimes :)
Yeah, The Netherlands is flat, which helps a lot, but I live in Scheveningen, really close to some hills! Still, at least I'm getting plenty of exercise, no matter how lazy I am sometimes :)
You can sell your bike and get an e-bike. If you bought a cheap bike, then just buy the e-bike.
However, make sure it's a reputable one that won't burst into flame whilst charging!
However, make sure it's a reputable one that won't burst into flame whilst charging!
My brother recently asked me a question that I didn’t have an answer to. In urban areas, most people park on the streets or in shared garages that have maybe 2 chargers for 100+ cars. Electric cars also take longer to charge. With the car electrification push, even with rapid charging, it seems like a real risk that chargers will become overwhelmed and have long wait times since you’d need ~5-10x as many chargers to handle the same amount at peak throughput. Swapping batteries seems like a no go. Is the expected solution to build waaay more chargers than we have fuel stations today? That’s setting aside the problem than many power grids can’t handle that many cars plugged in at once.
It seems like we’re massively ignoring the infrastructure problems of mass electrification. We should electrify, but I think the infrastructure piece is an overlooked unsexy undertaking that is often ignored by politicians because it’s too complicated and their constituents don’t complain about like they do with electric cars for that reason.
It seems like we’re massively ignoring the infrastructure problems of mass electrification. We should electrify, but I think the infrastructure piece is an overlooked unsexy undertaking that is often ignored by politicians because it’s too complicated and their constituents don’t complain about like they do with electric cars for that reason.
> In urban areas, most people park on the streets
If you look at Paris or Montréal, they have L2 chargers on the streets. Easy solution for that problem, they’re just 240v/32A stations, you don’t need fancy hardware for that.
> That’s setting aside the problem than many power grids can’t handle that many cars plugged in at once.
People overestimate how much they drive, on average you’re not going to see a load that big, 13500 miles a year is 36 miles a day, or 9kwh in an efficient car, 18kwh in a bloated F-150 lightning. We might need financial incentives to charge cars at different times, sure.
If you look at Paris or Montréal, they have L2 chargers on the streets. Easy solution for that problem, they’re just 240v/32A stations, you don’t need fancy hardware for that.
> That’s setting aside the problem than many power grids can’t handle that many cars plugged in at once.
People overestimate how much they drive, on average you’re not going to see a load that big, 13500 miles a year is 36 miles a day, or 9kwh in an efficient car, 18kwh in a bloated F-150 lightning. We might need financial incentives to charge cars at different times, sure.
I get by fine with 240v/20a charging (16a in reality).
Street charging, leveraging things like existing utility lines to street lights, isn't a huge lift. The individual chargers can balance the current they deliver among themselves if / when they share a common feed.
Similarly in large parking lots where people spend lots of time, you can put "low power" DC charging so people can charge while they're shopping.
The key to thinking about EV charging vs petrol charging is that you can and should do it without locking the operator to the vehicle -- plug in and walk away should be the expected interaction. DC fast charging like using petrol is useful in a very specific use case (long distance travel) but the requirement of "dump a gas tank of energy into an EV" is actually absurdly complex and requires huge power infrastructure. Around where I live many of the tesla superchargers have a natural gas fuel cell electric generator right next to them.
Street charging, leveraging things like existing utility lines to street lights, isn't a huge lift. The individual chargers can balance the current they deliver among themselves if / when they share a common feed.
Similarly in large parking lots where people spend lots of time, you can put "low power" DC charging so people can charge while they're shopping.
The key to thinking about EV charging vs petrol charging is that you can and should do it without locking the operator to the vehicle -- plug in and walk away should be the expected interaction. DC fast charging like using petrol is useful in a very specific use case (long distance travel) but the requirement of "dump a gas tank of energy into an EV" is actually absurdly complex and requires huge power infrastructure. Around where I live many of the tesla superchargers have a natural gas fuel cell electric generator right next to them.
Remember: for L2 charging the charger is part of the car. The thing with the cord is mostly just a fancy on/off switch.
Wouldn’t the time-of-day effect be amplified with enough EVs? Everyone arrives home at 6pm after work and plugs in.
My EV (and presumably most others) has settings so that it charges uses cheaper off-peak power. I tell it to make sure it's fully charged and preheated and ready to go at 7AM. So when it gets plugged in a 6PM it doesn't start charging until after midnight.
If evening peak loads become an issue then power companies can incentivise people to use less by raising the price at peak, and/or lowering it at off-peak times. And the software in the car can schedule charging to take advantage of cheaper prices. For example, you might plug in at 6pm, but the car will know to not start the charge until after 10pm, for example, or whenever power becomes cheaper.
Many EVs already allow for timing / delays for charging when plugged in.
Also, charging at work should help balance out solar generation, especially.
> It seems like we’re massively ignoring the infrastructure problems of mass electrification.
In the US, the number of public chargers more than doubled in 2022. New Solar added set a record. Wind generation continue to be added. Power companies continue to add new distribution lines. The White House put forward $25 Billion in federal funds for EV batteries, chargers, and related items.
In the US, the number of public chargers more than doubled in 2022. New Solar added set a record. Wind generation continue to be added. Power companies continue to add new distribution lines. The White House put forward $25 Billion in federal funds for EV batteries, chargers, and related items.
In contrast, I think it's going to get really interesting when a tipping point is reached.
At some point, EVs will replace enough of the automobile population that gasoline sales decline below profitability for most petrol stations.
While the ordinary thought is that this will happen gradually, it seems more likely to resemble the dynamics of an animal population that suddenly has insufficient food (whether by over-breeding or a food supply shortage). This dynamics is not that if the population is 110% of the food supply that 10% die off, it is more like a crash where 90% die off in such a situation; the starvation is evenly distributed so almost no one gets enough to survive.
So, when petrol stations have a great crash and mostly die off, suddenly the range anxiety will be pervasive in the petrol-powerd drivers. Which will make them want to get out even more, etc.
There's probably solutions to this, but will it be managed in time? Petrol-station subsidies seem like a bad idea...
At some point, EVs will replace enough of the automobile population that gasoline sales decline below profitability for most petrol stations.
While the ordinary thought is that this will happen gradually, it seems more likely to resemble the dynamics of an animal population that suddenly has insufficient food (whether by over-breeding or a food supply shortage). This dynamics is not that if the population is 110% of the food supply that 10% die off, it is more like a crash where 90% die off in such a situation; the starvation is evenly distributed so almost no one gets enough to survive.
So, when petrol stations have a great crash and mostly die off, suddenly the range anxiety will be pervasive in the petrol-powerd drivers. Which will make them want to get out even more, etc.
There's probably solutions to this, but will it be managed in time? Petrol-station subsidies seem like a bad idea...
Right now gas stations operate in a cutthroat industry. The price is mounted on big signs visible from the street, and people will irrationally drive across town to save 10 cents per gallon.
Once 90% of gas stations go away, that dynamic will be gone. Few gas stations mean there won't be the same level of price competition, so they'll be able to survive on much less volume. And there will be always be some demand for gasoline from classic cars, et cetera.
Once 90% of gas stations go away, that dynamic will be gone. Few gas stations mean there won't be the same level of price competition, so they'll be able to survive on much less volume. And there will be always be some demand for gasoline from classic cars, et cetera.
IIRC I've read that gas stations don't make much on gas sales but mostly on other items you buy. If so, the dynamic may be different from the population model.
The main difference is that with electric vehicles you can mostly charge at home. The only time you need a station is on a long trip. So much less demand on these than gas stations.
One of my thoughts is yes there is an issue with people that have to park on the street. A few random thoughts on that.
Urban drivers drive about half the miles/year than suburban ones. Probably 6000 vs 12500. And being an average some of them drive a lot less than that. I had a car in SF that I was putting 3000 miles/year on. If it was electric it's only use a batteries worth of power every month.
Given the duck curve and oversupply of solar during the day (oversupply == cheap) we should be installing chargers in employee parking lots. It's possible urban commuters could totally get by with charging at work. And it's probably cheaper and logistically simpler to install chargers there than on random street where cars park at night. Not to mention eventually power in the evening and night time is going to cost more than during the day.
Basically I think we still have a lot of low hanging fruit when it comes to electrified transport.
Urban drivers drive about half the miles/year than suburban ones. Probably 6000 vs 12500. And being an average some of them drive a lot less than that. I had a car in SF that I was putting 3000 miles/year on. If it was electric it's only use a batteries worth of power every month.
Given the duck curve and oversupply of solar during the day (oversupply == cheap) we should be installing chargers in employee parking lots. It's possible urban commuters could totally get by with charging at work. And it's probably cheaper and logistically simpler to install chargers there than on random street where cars park at night. Not to mention eventually power in the evening and night time is going to cost more than during the day.
Basically I think we still have a lot of low hanging fruit when it comes to electrified transport.
A non-trivial number of EV owners at my office get by without charging at home. Easier with a Tesla + Superchargers nearby (as a backup), but non-Tesla drivers do get by.
> areas, most people park on the streets or in shared garages that have maybe 2 chargers for 100+ cars
Just install chargers. It’s fine. You can have one in every spot in a parking garage. My apartment building in SF did this. I’m sure we’ll see a lot more incidental installs in street parking areas as well.
Just install chargers. It’s fine. You can have one in every spot in a parking garage. My apartment building in SF did this. I’m sure we’ll see a lot more incidental installs in street parking areas as well.
Depends on the building, the size and construction of the parking garage, and the amount of power that it is set up to draw. This can be easy or extremely expensive depending on the circumstances.
The building owners will install ones if there is enough incentive, as in, they losing out to buildings with charging infrastructure. Can you imagine a building that can’t run power cables to every single room?
I have long wondered why battery swapping is a no-go. Just like with a propane tank (e.g. for backyard grilling) I just take the empty to a store and swap it for a full. I don’t wait for them to fill it.
My guess is that for engineering reasons this is a no-go because the carmaker needs to be able to cram battery into odd nooks and crannies of the car, so it isn’t practical to make them interchangeable. I did once hear of an idea to have ships use electric while in port, and have swappable batteries for this - but on a ship space is hardly a limiting factor.
I know nothing about this though.
My guess is that for engineering reasons this is a no-go because the carmaker needs to be able to cram battery into odd nooks and crannies of the car, so it isn’t practical to make them interchangeable. I did once hear of an idea to have ships use electric while in port, and have swappable batteries for this - but on a ship space is hardly a limiting factor.
I know nothing about this though.
The weight is crazy (Model 3 long range is ~1000lbs), so you need a serious facility to swap.
They are relatively delicate, and flammable in a terrifying way, so you'd need to trust the facility more than e.g. your average oil & tire swap shop.
From an engineering POV they need a coolant loop w/ a pump, a high voltage connect to the charger, and usually also a connection to a DC-DC converter for the 12v systems on the car. So if you make it modular/removable, you need a (standardized) answer for how to do all of this.
The form factor of the battery is tied fairly strongly to the chassis generally, so if you force a standardization of it you limit manufacturer's options there.
Finally, probably the most important, is ownership model. The battery is the most expensive part in the car, by far. It basically is the car. Who owns it? What's the revenue model? How does insurance handle it? Will consumers accept a situation where they're getting random batteries shoved in affecting the performance etc. of their car?
It's just a whole thing. It's been attempted, and not succeeded is what I see.
Now, what I don't understand is why this isn't the model for EV shipping trucks. In that case they already have a highly modular, heavy duty platform and they already have to check into frequent weigh stations, and the operator rarely owns the truck. I don't understand why the shipping industry wouldn't pursue a model where a standardized set of pre-charged batteries aren't sitting on automated forklifts at weigh stations ready for swap during weigh-ins, with the fleet owners paying a fee for that maintenance...
They are relatively delicate, and flammable in a terrifying way, so you'd need to trust the facility more than e.g. your average oil & tire swap shop.
From an engineering POV they need a coolant loop w/ a pump, a high voltage connect to the charger, and usually also a connection to a DC-DC converter for the 12v systems on the car. So if you make it modular/removable, you need a (standardized) answer for how to do all of this.
The form factor of the battery is tied fairly strongly to the chassis generally, so if you force a standardization of it you limit manufacturer's options there.
Finally, probably the most important, is ownership model. The battery is the most expensive part in the car, by far. It basically is the car. Who owns it? What's the revenue model? How does insurance handle it? Will consumers accept a situation where they're getting random batteries shoved in affecting the performance etc. of their car?
It's just a whole thing. It's been attempted, and not succeeded is what I see.
Now, what I don't understand is why this isn't the model for EV shipping trucks. In that case they already have a highly modular, heavy duty platform and they already have to check into frequent weigh stations, and the operator rarely owns the truck. I don't understand why the shipping industry wouldn't pursue a model where a standardized set of pre-charged batteries aren't sitting on automated forklifts at weigh stations ready for swap during weigh-ins, with the fleet owners paying a fee for that maintenance...
The mechanical issues appear to me to be legitimate stumbling blocks.
The ownership model is surmountable. Make the battery a service. I pay $xxx/month or $xxx/mile to Battery Exchange Corp. which replaces my battery each time I “fuel up”. Maybe I do this routinely, or maybe I typically charge at home and do an exchange only when on long road trips.
As far as performance etc, surely the battery can track its health the way an iPhone measures battery health. Have specs for what a good battery is. But if Battery Exchange Corp. owns the battery, who cares? Corp. cares but it can figure this out, and maybe go after customers who destroy batteries (however this happens.)
A typical car owner is interested in transportation. He’s not interested in owning a battery and he’s certainly not interested in sitting around for half an hour waiting for a battery to charge during a road trip.
I’m not saying battery exchange would work, I just don’t think the ownership model is a difficult aspect of it.
The ownership model is surmountable. Make the battery a service. I pay $xxx/month or $xxx/mile to Battery Exchange Corp. which replaces my battery each time I “fuel up”. Maybe I do this routinely, or maybe I typically charge at home and do an exchange only when on long road trips.
As far as performance etc, surely the battery can track its health the way an iPhone measures battery health. Have specs for what a good battery is. But if Battery Exchange Corp. owns the battery, who cares? Corp. cares but it can figure this out, and maybe go after customers who destroy batteries (however this happens.)
A typical car owner is interested in transportation. He’s not interested in owning a battery and he’s certainly not interested in sitting around for half an hour waiting for a battery to charge during a road trip.
I’m not saying battery exchange would work, I just don’t think the ownership model is a difficult aspect of it.
A battery is practically the wear component of an EV drive train.
Imagine if every time you got gas it also quickly swapped out your transmission and engine with someone else's who may or may not have abused the hell out of that drivetrain previously. You buy a new EV, you go do a battery swap, the battery you got dies in a month. Who replaces the battery?
There's some talk about making battery leasing programs which could potentially be tied to battery swap stations, but I don't think I'd ever tie my refueling strategy to a $10k+ lease.
Battery swapping is just very impractical when we can just recharge them. One of the big positives of battery swapping is reducing the load on the grid for those extremely high power draws in fast recharging, but if we just build up batteries at the charging site it can help smooth those demands out more evenly making it easier for the grid to handle in the same way. Either way you're going to need a cache of batteries extra on site at the charging site.
Imagine if every time you got gas it also quickly swapped out your transmission and engine with someone else's who may or may not have abused the hell out of that drivetrain previously. You buy a new EV, you go do a battery swap, the battery you got dies in a month. Who replaces the battery?
There's some talk about making battery leasing programs which could potentially be tied to battery swap stations, but I don't think I'd ever tie my refueling strategy to a $10k+ lease.
Battery swapping is just very impractical when we can just recharge them. One of the big positives of battery swapping is reducing the load on the grid for those extremely high power draws in fast recharging, but if we just build up batteries at the charging site it can help smooth those demands out more evenly making it easier for the grid to handle in the same way. Either way you're going to need a cache of batteries extra on site at the charging site.
There are a number of reasons why battery swapping is not feasible in the real world, among them:
- Batteries age differently from one another, so swapping would only be fair if you had a similarly aged battery that had a similar number of miles & charge cycles on it
- Batteries need to be taken care of (like not using the last 10% at each limit of the battery). some people take really good care of their batteries, others don't. I would never want some random battery swapped into my car, as I've taken really good care of my car's battery
- Batteries are structurally built into the vehicle, and making them easily removable would make a lot of the engineering more difficult
- Batteries could become commoditized so that they fit in any car, but right now there are tons of different shaped & sized batteries, so it would be really hard to build the tooling to support all these different cars & battery types
Battery [edit changing to swapping]swapping is never going to work while people own the car and the battery. There will always be incentive to keep a battery that's healthy and dump a wonky battery back into the swapping pool.
I've got a natural gas grill with a $20 tank. The tanks all have a "do not refill past this date" stamp on them to keep people from using 30 year old rusty tanks. New tanks typically have a stamp that's 10 or more years in the future.
Some places swap the tanks rather than filling them. Whenever I took my tank to a "swap" place, the end-date is always closer to now than the one I gave them, to the point where you may start with a tank that's good to 2035 and if you swap it 8 times (over the course of 2 years) they'll refuse to take it because it will have expired.
I've got a natural gas grill with a $20 tank. The tanks all have a "do not refill past this date" stamp on them to keep people from using 30 year old rusty tanks. New tanks typically have a stamp that's 10 or more years in the future.
Some places swap the tanks rather than filling them. Whenever I took my tank to a "swap" place, the end-date is always closer to now than the one I gave them, to the point where you may start with a tank that's good to 2035 and if you swap it 8 times (over the course of 2 years) they'll refuse to take it because it will have expired.
> a natural gas grill with a $20 tank
A natural gas grill with a tank? I don't think I've ever seen one. Are you sure its not propane?
A natural gas grill with a tank? I don't think I've ever seen one. Are you sure its not propane?
sorry yes -- propane. I guess natural gas is (mostly) methane? Bottle of compressed flammable gas.
Yeah, bottling useful amounts of natural gas requires very high pressures or cryogenic storage facilities which require much more expensive bottles. They're pretty rare to see used for something like a grill.
Meanwhile the phase change of propane from gas to liquid is a much lower pressure so its way easier to handle with far cheaper bottles.
Meanwhile the phase change of propane from gas to liquid is a much lower pressure so its way easier to handle with far cheaper bottles.
There's at least one automaker (Nio) with battery swaps as part of their regularly offered services.
Yes I rented a Tesla recently in Ontario and I didn’t realize it takes 6h for a full charge, I also didn’t had a charger in the hotel neither did I have a nearby.
Basically had to Uber while charging…
Basically had to Uber while charging…
> In urban areas, most people park on the streets
Isn’t this the main problem? People parkig on the streets simply cannot buy EVs cause charging would be a royal hassle for them
Isn’t this the main problem? People parkig on the streets simply cannot buy EVs cause charging would be a royal hassle for them
This is my main rub, I live in one of these situations (like I'm sure a huge percentage of Americans do), and there's zero way I could own an EV. Are we all supposed to run the charging plug across the sidewalk? We've had kids mess with cars previously, undeterred by security cameras, so now we have to worry about them unplugging our cars in the middle of the night too?
I'm strongly in support of alternatives to ICE cars, but the idea of auto makers being able to sell only EVs in America by 2030 or whatever is an absolute farce.
I'm strongly in support of alternatives to ICE cars, but the idea of auto makers being able to sell only EVs in America by 2030 or whatever is an absolute farce.
Most EVs have locked charging ports, so they can’t disconnect it without unlocking the car. However, they could just cut the wire for laughs, although the result of that might be shocking.
Where I live, street parking is rife with catalytic converter theft and gas siphoning (they drill a hole in your tank).
2030 is the date for some European countries, but in the USA 2035 is the date being set by some states.
Where I live, street parking is rife with catalytic converter theft and gas siphoning (they drill a hole in your tank).
2030 is the date for some European countries, but in the USA 2035 is the date being set by some states.
I know people who live like you do with EVs and they have zero problem. Either they can charge at work or they charge when they're parked while out shopping or similar or, worst case scenario, they just have to drive down the road to the nearest super charger and just sit there 15-25 minutes watching YouTube while their car charges.
I think there is probably some selection bias here, you know people in those situations that don't have any problems because they wouldn't have bought those cars if they would have problems.
But I don't want to make any assumptions about the people you know, some people are also just less bothered by these things or care enough about driving an EV that they take it in stride.
I'm sure that when you want 100% of car owners to switch to EVs there are those that will run into issues. Like people that work from home and can't charge at an office, or when there's no charging spot available when they're out shopping and they really don't have time this week to go charge their car somewhere. Not to mention the fact that charging at home is likely a lot cheaper than charging from public infrastructure (I don't own an EV so I don't actually know how the prices compare)
I'm not saying that these are insurmountable problems, or that some of them won't get solved along the way (like if we end up getting a surplus of chargers at public parking spots), but there are some genuine disadvantages to owning an EV when compared to an ICE.
I personally wouldn't want to buy an EV until I have my own driveway and can charge my car at home, but with current housing prices (and EV prices) I don't see this happening for a while.
I'm sure that when you want 100% of car owners to switch to EVs there are those that will run into issues. Like people that work from home and can't charge at an office, or when there's no charging spot available when they're out shopping and they really don't have time this week to go charge their car somewhere. Not to mention the fact that charging at home is likely a lot cheaper than charging from public infrastructure (I don't own an EV so I don't actually know how the prices compare)
I'm not saying that these are insurmountable problems, or that some of them won't get solved along the way (like if we end up getting a surplus of chargers at public parking spots), but there are some genuine disadvantages to owning an EV when compared to an ICE.
I personally wouldn't want to buy an EV until I have my own driveway and can charge my car at home, but with current housing prices (and EV prices) I don't see this happening for a while.
Definitely.
I just bought an EV (Model Y) because I needed a new car (I would have waited longer if I could have), and I live in an apartment that doesn't have chargers. I work from home, so I don't have a commute, so it's not a deal breaker, but it's definitely not ideal. I live in Austin, which has a network of public chargers that you can use for only 4$ a month, so that helps, but still not ideal. With my ICE car, I can run it until the gas light goes on, and even then I know I can drive for 20 miles without worries, because there's invariably a gas station within < 5 miles away. With the EV right now, that's not the case. There are slow chargers nearby, but fast chargers are about 7 miles away.
In my situation, my worst case is that I have to go to a supercharger about once a week. I did this for the first time recently, another gripe I have is that the range I get out of the car (Model Y LR) is a lot lower than what I expected to get (~200 miles vs 330). At current gas prices, it's actually MORE expensive to charge the Tesla at a supercharger (0.38$/kWH @ 74KW capacity / 200 miles = 0.14$ a mile, than it was to fill up my Elantra at a gas station (3.50$ per gallon at 30MPG = 0.11$). If I lived in a house, obviously I would save a lot more money, since electricity prices are only like 0.11$/kWH I think.
It's an interesting problem. In dense urban environments, the infrastructure has a long way to go. However, I think this is probably the minority, since most people live in the suburbs or smaller cities in America. In those cases, they can simply charge at home, and they might have to visit a supercharger on road trips or odd cases. Therefore the demand for charging will be lower than it would be for gas cars.
I just bought an EV (Model Y) because I needed a new car (I would have waited longer if I could have), and I live in an apartment that doesn't have chargers. I work from home, so I don't have a commute, so it's not a deal breaker, but it's definitely not ideal. I live in Austin, which has a network of public chargers that you can use for only 4$ a month, so that helps, but still not ideal. With my ICE car, I can run it until the gas light goes on, and even then I know I can drive for 20 miles without worries, because there's invariably a gas station within < 5 miles away. With the EV right now, that's not the case. There are slow chargers nearby, but fast chargers are about 7 miles away.
In my situation, my worst case is that I have to go to a supercharger about once a week. I did this for the first time recently, another gripe I have is that the range I get out of the car (Model Y LR) is a lot lower than what I expected to get (~200 miles vs 330). At current gas prices, it's actually MORE expensive to charge the Tesla at a supercharger (0.38$/kWH @ 74KW capacity / 200 miles = 0.14$ a mile, than it was to fill up my Elantra at a gas station (3.50$ per gallon at 30MPG = 0.11$). If I lived in a house, obviously I would save a lot more money, since electricity prices are only like 0.11$/kWH I think.
It's an interesting problem. In dense urban environments, the infrastructure has a long way to go. However, I think this is probably the minority, since most people live in the suburbs or smaller cities in America. In those cases, they can simply charge at home, and they might have to visit a supercharger on road trips or odd cases. Therefore the demand for charging will be lower than it would be for gas cars.
Street charging at 10-30a wouldn't require much more infrastructure than existing street lights; most cars are parked on the street for hours at a time (depending on if parking near where the owner lives / works or "just visiting"). An hour at 16a / 240v is 10-15 miles of added range.
An AC charger is basically just a smart extension cord. A public AC charger is a smart extension cord plus a payment terminal or 3g backhaul to payment APIs and maybe power balancing (draw 30a if nothing else is charging; draw 5a if every other charger on the circuit is also charging). You could have a street with 20 of these things and it'd draw the same power as a normal house (IE it's not big infrastructure).
It wouldn't be perfect, but it's certainly possible.
The key to thinking about charging EVs is you can do it without the person attending to the process. Plug car in; walk away.
An AC charger is basically just a smart extension cord. A public AC charger is a smart extension cord plus a payment terminal or 3g backhaul to payment APIs and maybe power balancing (draw 30a if nothing else is charging; draw 5a if every other charger on the circuit is also charging). You could have a street with 20 of these things and it'd draw the same power as a normal house (IE it's not big infrastructure).
It wouldn't be perfect, but it's certainly possible.
The key to thinking about charging EVs is you can do it without the person attending to the process. Plug car in; walk away.
You could add charging poles on the street.
5-10x as many chargers doesn’t seem unreasonable if there are 5-10x as many EVs
Seems like an article like that should include California's unique and large tax credit for EV's which helps people "choose" by being subsidized by everyone else.
It would be a different story if people had to pay full sticker price.
It would be a different story if people had to pay full sticker price.
Oil and gas gets ~$5T/year in subsidies globally. There is no "full sticker price", all scales are tipped. Similarly, it would be different if everyone consuming fossil fuels had to pay the fully loaded costs.
https://www.imf.org/en/Topics/climate-change/energy-subsidie...
https://www.budget.senate.gov/chairman/newsroom/press/sen-wh...
https://www.imf.org/en/Topics/climate-change/energy-subsidie...
https://www.budget.senate.gov/chairman/newsroom/press/sen-wh...
Agree that it's gray, but the end consumer isn't seeing the benefit as directly as EV's. Given that they also consume fossil fuels for their electricity, it would be difficult to unwind full sticker price.
In the long run, it will benefit everyone else too. But that's without getting into all the ways that gas cars or cars in general are subsidized too.
Even after subsidies, EVs are still more expensive than gas-powered cards, so subsidies alone don't explain why EVs are gaining market share.
There's also the EV specific tax credits. New EV buyers which is what the article references are much higher income that average and are able to take better advantage.
To be clear, I'm not against EV's at all but think they can and should compete on equal footing.
To be clear, I'm not against EV's at all but think they can and should compete on equal footing.
Amusing you'd say that given the US goes to war and destabilize governments to prop up petroleum supply (e.g. Iraq).
How much did that war cost?
How much did that war cost?
Way too much! But I'm not sure where you are going with that point. If suddenly lithium (batteries) were to become a necessary resource for the US, you can bet governments will be destabilized to prop up the lithium supply.
Toyota dealerships are adding $5k to $10k as "dealer's mark up fees". No wonder, buyers are switching to transparent buying. It is cheaper to buy a Tesla than a Toyota.
Apart from the high gasoline prices, California is a state with a very aspirational culture. EVs have replaced ICEs as the aspirational vehicle.
Yes, it's true that this skews heavily towards those with homes with driveways/garages (and therefore are typically better off). Nonetheless it's a big shift in preferences in a huge new vehicle market.
Yes, it's true that this skews heavily towards those with homes with driveways/garages (and therefore are typically better off). Nonetheless it's a big shift in preferences in a huge new vehicle market.
if you can charge at home (at night) or at office electric car is an excellent option - fun to drive, no gas station trips and close to 0 maintenance.
And if it is a Tesla, you get access to superchargers so trips up and down the coast are easy.
Yup. Standard S-curve. Demand is going to pick up fast and then gradually taper off.
The more EV cars that people are surrounded by, the more likely they're going to buy an EV car.
I wouldn't be surprised if 3 out of 4 new cars sold within 10 years are EV.
The more EV cars that people are surrounded by, the more likely they're going to buy an EV car.
I wouldn't be surprised if 3 out of 4 new cars sold within 10 years are EV.
I live in the inner city in Saint Louis, MO, which isn't the richest or most green-friendly region, and there's multiple Teslas on my block. It's been an impressive shift over the last few years.
My ICE car's low oil light came on for the 2nd time in six months (first was a major leak, expensive) and I'm fully on board with replacing it with an EV next time around. Sadly there are not any EV minivans available yet but there are several 7-seater SUVs available or coming to market in 2024 or 2025.
> there are several 7-seater SUVs available or coming to market in 2024 or 2025
This is around the timeline for the VW ID.California's launch [1].
[1] https://topelectricsuv.com/news/volkswagen/vw-id-california-...
This is around the timeline for the VW ID.California's launch [1].
[1] https://topelectricsuv.com/news/volkswagen/vw-id-california-...
Right.
The biggest hurdle to ev cars is going to be the (lack of) homeownership
Less so in america, but in this regard america is the minority
Less so in america, but in this regard america is the minority
Parking places for cars is basically a solved problem in the USA, so it's just a matter of rolling out the infrastructure.
Once landlords have problems getting tenants, chargers will appear.
And 65% of Americans live in a home they own, and some large percentage of the remainder probably don't buy new cars (though used EVs are starting to become somewhat of a desirable option).
Once landlords have problems getting tenants, chargers will appear.
And 65% of Americans live in a home they own, and some large percentage of the remainder probably don't buy new cars (though used EVs are starting to become somewhat of a desirable option).
Home ownership in the USA is higher than Europe. But not all those homes come with usable garages, a lot of home owners still park on the street in some urban locales.
The $7500 rebate probably helps.
That rebate is available across the whole country, not just CA.
California rebate is another $7500 (at most) on top of federal rebates.
That $7500 is based on a pretty low (by CA standards) income threshold. That is a good thing as we should be subsidizing EVs more for lower income people (because they tend to have a higher transportation energy cost burden, and are more dependent on driving to get to work).
Given the high price market segmentation of most EVs (with the Chevy Bolt standing out as an exception), I suspect that most EV buyers can't take advantage of anywhere near that level of rebate.
Given the high price market segmentation of most EVs (with the Chevy Bolt standing out as an exception), I suspect that most EV buyers can't take advantage of anywhere near that level of rebate.
There are easy workarounds on the income phase-out though. For example I would never have qualified for the EV rebate on my PHEV Honda Clarity, so instead I leased the car, Honda got the rebate, I got the lower price, and a month later I bought out the lease.
> so instead I leased the car, Honda got the rebate, I got the lower price, and a month later I bought out the lease.
The Clarity is a great car! Hope you are enjoying it.
The CA rebate is income limited regardless of whether it is a purchase or lease. It sounds more like you were able to negotiate a lower price with Honda, not that you actually got the rebate. Most EVs are currently in such demand that there is little ability to negotiate on price.
The Clarity is a great car! Hope you are enjoying it.
The CA rebate is income limited regardless of whether it is a purchase or lease. It sounds more like you were able to negotiate a lower price with Honda, not that you actually got the rebate. Most EVs are currently in such demand that there is little ability to negotiate on price.
That wasn't how it was explained to me. As I understood it, Honda Random American Subsidiary retained the benefit of the tax credit somehow, without (obviously) a personal income test. Whatever the case was, the overall effect was that I paid about the same price for the car as I would have paid if I had purchased it and received the EV rebate, for which I was not eligible.
CVRP has a function called CVRP Rebate Now (https://cleanvehiclerebate.org/en/dealer/rebate-now#rb-now-f...) that allows the dealer to credit the rebate as a down payment.
It doesn't change the income eligibility requirements, and the purchaser/leasee has to pre-qualify (by confirming income) 30-45 days before the vehicle purchase.
Without that pre-qualification, the dealer can't get the money back from the CVRP.
It doesn't change the income eligibility requirements, and the purchaser/leasee has to pre-qualify (by confirming income) 30-45 days before the vehicle purchase.
Without that pre-qualification, the dealer can't get the money back from the CVRP.
30%-50% drop in range living in a cold wintery climate (including reduced efficiency via snow tires), makes it not an option for me, esp. going to larger town to shop, ski, or hike in remote trails. My garage is unheated and in the winter I need to use a battery tender with long extension cable to house or my car wont start. Jan/Feb can have stretch of average temp below 0 F.
[deleted]
An EV would be able to heat its battery while charging or depleting it (that does reduce the efficiency). I don't think it's much of an issue, if you consider that Norway is one of the biggest EV adopters.
I feel like battery capacity has to double for it to be a feasible option for this sort of situation
ICEVs have been increasing in efficiency for 100 years. EVs have been for less than 20 years. If EVs are already halfway to being efficient enough for winter driving, imagine how efficient they could be in another 80 years.
Absolutely - the future is looking really promising if we keep up the innovation.
Are we nearing the point where gas stations begin becoming economically unviable in the Bay Area?
How quickly will gas stations go out of business if new cars stop being ICE?
As quickly as the percentage of ICEVs goes down. When one closes, the ones around it will gain customers, helping them stay open.
Ehhh maybe? You’ve still got a gloomy outlook for your future and customers dealing with less convenient gas stations. Plus when all the gas stations are owned by a few major chains you might get more strategic level choices.
I hope to follow when I purchase my next car here in Ohio. There's a new brand -- "Fisker" -- that's coming out with seriously reasonably priced electric vehicles. I'm going to be watching them closely.
Exciting stuff! I don't drive a ton ( ~1500 miles / yr tops ) so my emissions output isn't huge, but I think it will feel good to curb even my small driver's footprint.
I hope we look back on this time for vehicles fondly. I think we're coming up on the inflection point fast :)
It'll be a little melancholy for me as I like hot rodding. But I've already said that the moment they come out with an electric conversion kit, I'll have my car done right away. To hell with it, it'd be an awesome conversation piece.
Exciting stuff! I don't drive a ton ( ~1500 miles / yr tops ) so my emissions output isn't huge, but I think it will feel good to curb even my small driver's footprint.
I hope we look back on this time for vehicles fondly. I think we're coming up on the inflection point fast :)
It'll be a little melancholy for me as I like hot rodding. But I've already said that the moment they come out with an electric conversion kit, I'll have my car done right away. To hell with it, it'd be an awesome conversation piece.
1500 mi/yr is nothing, definitely not worth the cost of a new car! Consider many modern cars and especially EVs are expected to last well over 200k mi. The car will rust away before you hit 30k mi.
It's impressive to be voluntarily low car in Ohio considering the sorry state of transit and bike infrastructure in Ohio's cities. Pretty difficult with the exception of Cleveland's core.
If carshare is unavailable and you really want an EV, I would look at the last generation EVs - used Kia Niro, Chevy Bolt, Hyundai Kona, Hyundai Ioniq (old hatchback, not the 5 or 6), VW eGolf, or a Nissan Leaf if you have a spot to charge.
Many of the older models will be under $25,000 used and therefore eligible for an income restricted $4,000 federal tax credit.
Took a look through auto trader and there's quite a few used EVs in Ohio that would near $10k with the tax credit.
Curious what your primary transportation is - bike or ebike?
It's impressive to be voluntarily low car in Ohio considering the sorry state of transit and bike infrastructure in Ohio's cities. Pretty difficult with the exception of Cleveland's core.
If carshare is unavailable and you really want an EV, I would look at the last generation EVs - used Kia Niro, Chevy Bolt, Hyundai Kona, Hyundai Ioniq (old hatchback, not the 5 or 6), VW eGolf, or a Nissan Leaf if you have a spot to charge.
Many of the older models will be under $25,000 used and therefore eligible for an income restricted $4,000 federal tax credit.
Took a look through auto trader and there's quite a few used EVs in Ohio that would near $10k with the tax credit.
Curious what your primary transportation is - bike or ebike?
At 1500 miles a year I'd be seriously documenting what I need the vehicle for, and what other options are available, such as car share, taxi, rentals, or even that $19 pickup at Home Depot if one is near you.
Financial decision aside, buying a _whole new car_ when you drive so little will never offset anything. The sheer amount of greenhouse gases emitted and materials consumed will never be offset.
You need to keep to keep the old car. Unless you're straight up rolling coal, the most ecological car is the car that never gets produced. If you absolutely need to buy something, just buy something like a Citroën Ami (https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-cars/a36351549/citroen-e...) (well, it's not actually allowed in the US, but that kind of car is what you need.)
You need to keep to keep the old car. Unless you're straight up rolling coal, the most ecological car is the car that never gets produced. If you absolutely need to buy something, just buy something like a Citroën Ami (https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-cars/a36351549/citroen-e...) (well, it's not actually allowed in the US, but that kind of car is what you need.)
> I hope we look back on this time for vehicles fondly. I think we're coming up on the inflection point fast :)
Tesla is selling more cars in California (world's fifth largest economy) than Toyota [1]. I think we're already there.
[1] https://electrek.co/2023/07/25/tesla-now-outsells-toyota-in-...
Tesla is selling more cars in California (world's fifth largest economy) than Toyota [1]. I think we're already there.
[1] https://electrek.co/2023/07/25/tesla-now-outsells-toyota-in-...
> but I think it will feel good to curb even my small driver's footprint.
No if you drive so little, buying ANY car is going to increase your driver's footprint, by a lot.
No if you drive so little, buying ANY car is going to increase your driver's footprint, by a lot.
Fisker's been around for a while! I didn't know they were back.
Here's an article from 2012 about a $100,000 model they made:
https://news.yahoo.com/news/justin-bieber-birthday-got-fiske...
Here's an article from 2012 about a $100,000 model they made:
https://news.yahoo.com/news/justin-bieber-birthday-got-fiske...
The current Fisker isn't that Fisker though they have the same founder
i'm still scared of lithium battery house fires
The spat of news stories about electric car fires tends to be news sensationalism rather than the reality of residential fires.
By far, residential fires are started by cooking, home heating, malfunctioning electric wiring or lighting. Stuff you’ve already been living with for a long time!
Best thing to do is make sure your smoke alarms are working, regularly tested, and have an evacuation plan, practiced with your family.
See: https://www.nfpa.org/News-and-Research/Publications-and-medi...
By far, residential fires are started by cooking, home heating, malfunctioning electric wiring or lighting. Stuff you’ve already been living with for a long time!
Best thing to do is make sure your smoke alarms are working, regularly tested, and have an evacuation plan, practiced with your family.
See: https://www.nfpa.org/News-and-Research/Publications-and-medi...
Problem with EV car fires is putting them out!
Once auto and home insurance companies figure out the risks involved, they'll raise auto and home insurance prices accordingly. We'll see:
- EV fire in a condo - destroys entire condo building. Requires 4 hours of fire department coverage.
- ICE fire in a condo - partially burns a single unit. Put out in 20 minutes by fire department.
Once auto and home insurance companies figure out the risks involved, they'll raise auto and home insurance prices accordingly. We'll see:
- EV fire in a condo - destroys entire condo building. Requires 4 hours of fire department coverage.
- ICE fire in a condo - partially burns a single unit. Put out in 20 minutes by fire department.
"destroys entire condo building". Doubt.
I'm pretty paranoid about battery fires. I store all my 18650s in vented metal ammo boxes, generally don't leave devices charging while I'm out of the house, etc, but I would hope (and I assume) something as large as a car battery would have a large safety margin built in.
I had a nightmare where all the lithium batteries in the USA were intentionally booby-trapped in their manufactury so that a preset radio signal would cause them to burst into flames! Something to do with China vs USA conflict over Taiwan. So I had to run around taking out all the batteries.
I think that's paranoid!8-)
I think that's paranoid!8-)
me too. :)
Then get a vehicle with LFP batteries. Those ones aren't nearly as combustible as the NMC batteries (though the capacity is a bit lower for the same volume).
The base-model Telsa model3 comes with them, IIRC.
The base-model Telsa model3 comes with them, IIRC.
It is typical that the "concerned scientists" that authored the article weren't concerned about overloading the electrical grid with all of the additional power draw from charging electric cars.
Why is every article that proclaims the value and benefits of electric vehicles ignoring the three factors that will give them a black-eye in public opinion?
1. Where does all of the power come from to generate electricity to charge the electric car?
2. How do we put out the fires when the electric vehicles' batteries catch fire on a daily basis?
3. Where does the additional infrastructure come from to charge all of the Electric Vehicles?
The basic math won't add up at the rate the government is promoting EV adoption. Run the numbers.
Why is every article that proclaims the value and benefits of electric vehicles ignoring the three factors that will give them a black-eye in public opinion?
1. Where does all of the power come from to generate electricity to charge the electric car?
2. How do we put out the fires when the electric vehicles' batteries catch fire on a daily basis?
3. Where does the additional infrastructure come from to charge all of the Electric Vehicles?
The basic math won't add up at the rate the government is promoting EV adoption. Run the numbers.
Did you run the numbers?
EV adoption is increasing load on the grid at a rate less than that during the time that air conditioning went from rare to almost universal. That required expanding the grid, but we could handle it then and we can handle it now.
And unlike A/C, EV's charge at night, when the grid is not stressed.
And EV's catch fire at a rate less than 10% of gasoline cars.
EV adoption is increasing load on the grid at a rate less than that during the time that air conditioning went from rare to almost universal. That required expanding the grid, but we could handle it then and we can handle it now.
And unlike A/C, EV's charge at night, when the grid is not stressed.
And EV's catch fire at a rate less than 10% of gasoline cars.
> And EV's catch fire at a rate less than 10% of gasoline cars.
The key here is where they catch fire, EVs may be much more likely to burst into flame while charging in your garage than a gas car, whereas gas cars are probably more likely to burst into flame whilst driving.
The key here is where they catch fire, EVs may be much more likely to burst into flame while charging in your garage than a gas car, whereas gas cars are probably more likely to burst into flame whilst driving.
Sure, if you don't take your car in for its recalls. Properly engineered EV's predominantly catch fire in accidents, just like gas cars.
It seems to have happened very gradually, then suddenly. Tick, tick, tick... Ka-Boom!
California and other states seem to be in the early stages of the same adoption curve.
I own two EVs. I bought the first one three years ago as a test. Two years later, I was so satisfied with it that I bought a second one. In my experience, EVs are far superior to gas-powered cars -- so much better, in fact, that I hope never again to buy a gas-powered car!
Based on the adoption curves we're seeing and my own experience, I'd expect more than 90% of all new cars sold in the US to be EVs within the next 10-15 years.
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[a] https://insideevs.com/news/675163/norway-plugin-car-sales-ju...