Metallica hard-wires a different set list every night(nytimes.com)
nytimes.com
Metallica hard-wires a different set list every night
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/16/arts/music/metallica-set-list-interview.html
62 comments
https://archive.md/1HIIT
> you play on the doughnut itself and then the fans are in the doughnut hole. And then, well, where do the drums go? Then the concept of the four drum kits — one drum kit in each of the four different directions — came up, and then it sort of went from there.
Er, how does this work in a stadium? Some stadium concerts already have premium prices for the area closer to the stage, but the others can at least see the same thing, albeit from further away. If the "donut hole" is the premium area, what do the people outside the donut get to see? Guess I'll have to wait for a video of this. But this whole "360° stage" thing smacks of "using the stadium capacity as efficiently as possible to make moar money"...
Er, how does this work in a stadium? Some stadium concerts already have premium prices for the area closer to the stage, but the others can at least see the same thing, albeit from further away. If the "donut hole" is the premium area, what do the people outside the donut get to see? Guess I'll have to wait for a video of this. But this whole "360° stage" thing smacks of "using the stadium capacity as efficiently as possible to make moar money"...
I've been to a stadium concert with a similar doughnut layout and the main problem was that at all times at least half the audience is looking at a band member's back, not their face. You get some connection by being close but that doesn't last when they walk over to the other side of the stage. For what connection you can get in a stadium gig I prefer to see people's front, plus a big screen, not the musicians' backs just a bit closer.
> You get some connection by being close
hold up - is this why people go to concerts? because they think they're connecting on some level with the band?
I've been to a few small concerts and not once was I seeking, or did I feel, any connection of any kind.
I may be too autistic or ADHD to understand concerts, I guess. I didn't like the few I went to and I won't go to one again. the music sounds far better at home and I get to control the volume.
hold up - is this why people go to concerts? because they think they're connecting on some level with the band?
I've been to a few small concerts and not once was I seeking, or did I feel, any connection of any kind.
I may be too autistic or ADHD to understand concerts, I guess. I didn't like the few I went to and I won't go to one again. the music sounds far better at home and I get to control the volume.
I don't go to concerts for the music quality. Listening to a mastered studio recording is much better for that. I go (or rather used to go) for the atmosphere. Some bands really know how to perform and experiencing that as part of a crowd who are also fans is a great experience. Maybe connecting isn't the right word, at least how you're thinking of it, but it is experiencing the performance, appreciating how they love playing the music and that's better in person and in a crowd than via TV. But not everyone will get that.
I've been to one show where the lead singers microphone didn't work for the first song and he didn't realise but the performance he gave was such that the crowd was still entertained and captivated.
I rarely go to gigs now as the atmosphere has changed from when I first started gigging back in the 20th century. People increasingly seem to go for something to do and a place to be check in on social media, not to appreciate a band they love. People talk over the music, video pointlessly on their phones, heckle, etc... and I'm too old to put up with that kind of nonsense. Some bands though still get devoted audiences and then it's worth it.
I've been to one show where the lead singers microphone didn't work for the first song and he didn't realise but the performance he gave was such that the crowd was still entertained and captivated.
I rarely go to gigs now as the atmosphere has changed from when I first started gigging back in the 20th century. People increasingly seem to go for something to do and a place to be check in on social media, not to appreciate a band they love. People talk over the music, video pointlessly on their phones, heckle, etc... and I'm too old to put up with that kind of nonsense. Some bands though still get devoted audiences and then it's worth it.
>I rarely go to gigs now as the atmosphere has changed from when I first started gigging back in the 20th century. People increasingly seem to go for something to do and a place to be check in on social media, not to appreciate a band they love. People talk over the music, video pointlessly on their phones, heckle, etc...
I've been to a not-large number of various metal shows in the 21st century, including in the last 5 years, and this isn't my experience at all. except for the video part: some people are using their phones to record the show, or take photos. But certainly no heckling, talking over the music (pretty hard when it's that loud), etc. Generally crowds are very respectful in my experience, and are there to listen to the music (and remember it with their phone recordings too apparently).
Maybe this shows a big difference between genres?
I've been to a not-large number of various metal shows in the 21st century, including in the last 5 years, and this isn't my experience at all. except for the video part: some people are using their phones to record the show, or take photos. But certainly no heckling, talking over the music (pretty hard when it's that loud), etc. Generally crowds are very respectful in my experience, and are there to listen to the music (and remember it with their phone recordings too apparently).
Maybe this shows a big difference between genres?
yep confirmed I absolutely do not understand concerts.
atmosphere? what atmosphere? it's just a bunch of people standing or sitting around looking at a few celebrities and being in awe of that for some reason.
I truly don't get it. LOTS AND LOTS of people love concerts, though, so I'm pretty sure that I'm the abnormal one, and that part of my brain or social awareness or understanding is just not present.
atmosphere? what atmosphere? it's just a bunch of people standing or sitting around looking at a few celebrities and being in awe of that for some reason.
I truly don't get it. LOTS AND LOTS of people love concerts, though, so I'm pretty sure that I'm the abnormal one, and that part of my brain or social awareness or understanding is just not present.
I’m with you on this analysis, I’m good going see a local band at a club with 150 others. It’s a different objective and experience, but stadium shows seem so sterile.
It doesn't have to be a local band, most concerts by less-mainstream acts (I hesitate to call Metallica mainstream, but I guess any band that can fill a stadium can be called mainstream) are in standing-place-only venues with a few hundred places - all tickets same price, and if you invest 1-2 hours to get there earlier you can get a place right in front of the stage.
For the opposite of a sterile stadium show see AC/DC in the River Plate stadium on youtube https://youtu.be/GCC8gWTOkEk
There's some videos up:
https://youtu.be/yY4w-bIH3X4
https://youtu.be/yY4w-bIH3X4
Wow, the giant beach balls are just horrible.
I agree, what's this, rock concert and American Gladiator mixed up?
I mean, it makes sense that the artist wants to circulate, but a T shaped stage makes more sense on a first glance (though of course having the guitar means that you need a pedestal for the mic, so there's that)
I mean, it makes sense that the artist wants to circulate, but a T shaped stage makes more sense on a first glance (though of course having the guitar means that you need a pedestal for the mic, so there's that)
I mean, this is Metallica. Goes without saying.
If you think this kind of thing is cool, Phish just played seven shows in a row at Madison Square Garden without repeating a single song!
King Gizzard does this kind of thing of too and it's awesome. It's sometimes kind of a bummer if you go see a large act multiple times and it's pretty much the same set.
King Gizzard does this kind of thing of too and it's awesome. It's sometimes kind of a bummer if you go see a large act multiple times and it's pretty much the same set.
I remember reading Mike Portnoy doing that for Dream Theater while he was in the band (not sure if they still do it). Not just mixing up the set list for the venue repeats but also taking into account that some fans like to go to neighboring venues and wanted to keep it fresh for them too.
I was reminded of that too. I’m fairly certain they stopped doing that when Portnoy left.
As much hate as Lars gets he is a big part of Metallica's success.
Is it because of the Napster thing? Or there's more to it.
This video explains it all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjbAKqREg9g
the meme is that he's a bad drummer, but even Hetfield said that he thought of kicking Lars before but realized later that he's an essential part of the band, after all, he's the one that founded the band - if it weren't for him putting out an ad on a newspaper in the US, Metallica might've not existed.
he's not a great drummer, but he's an essential part of the band, remove him and the band is no longer the same. I'd say he keeps the band together.
the meme is that he's a bad drummer, but even Hetfield said that he thought of kicking Lars before but realized later that he's an essential part of the band, after all, he's the one that founded the band - if it weren't for him putting out an ad on a newspaper in the US, Metallica might've not existed.
he's not a great drummer, but he's an essential part of the band, remove him and the band is no longer the same. I'd say he keeps the band together.
I don't get the "bad drummer" meme. The drum parts in any Metallica song are perfect for the song and you can tell his style by listening to the drums alone.
Even if it was just serviceable, he's Metallica's drummer, so he's going to be criticised anyway.
Even if it was just serviceable, he's Metallica's drummer, so he's going to be criticised anyway.
It’s just that he’s technically not good, that’s all. Like he drifts with time and isn’t very precise. I think the band would sound better if he were more competent. The same could be said of Kirk’s solos; even though he’s performed some classic and memorable guitar parts, on the whole they’re pretty bland.
I think for quite some time James and Jason were the best musicians in the band. Now Trujillo is far and away the most serious and capable musician among them.
That’s not to take away from the whole package. Cleary together they do (or did) something people love. But there is some objective notion of musical skill and capability that you can judge them by, and Lars is just not that great.
I think for quite some time James and Jason were the best musicians in the band. Now Trujillo is far and away the most serious and capable musician among them.
That’s not to take away from the whole package. Cleary together they do (or did) something people love. But there is some objective notion of musical skill and capability that you can judge them by, and Lars is just not that great.
He's probably better than anyone in The Clash for example
Technical prowess only goes so far, Metallica got where it got with him, and in the end it's a moot point
Yeah maybe he's not the best drummer, but it was good enough to get them where they got
Technical prowess only goes so far, Metallica got where it got with him, and in the end it's a moot point
Yeah maybe he's not the best drummer, but it was good enough to get them where they got
I think I made all of that pretty clear in my comment. I was just explaining the “bad drummer” meme.
There's something I don't understand. He's been a drummer for 40 years now. How can he still be "not good"?
Probably because he doesn’t dedicate himself to the craft. Musicians tend to get better with age, not worse.
To a point. Drumming requires a lot more stamina than other instruments, so after a certain point, drummers have a hard time playing as well as they did when younger. We're seeing this now with Iron Maiden's Nicko McBrain, who's over 70. It's not like this for guitars/bass, but again with Iron Maiden, people are saying that they aren't running around the stage they way they did in the past.
Age isn't Lars's problem though.
Age isn't Lars's problem though.
the only time they didn't criticize him was back in the 90s when the whole band was high on drugs all the time, I guess.
The impression I've got from reading a bit around this is that Lars can write great drum parts (especially great Metallica drum parts), and he can them play well enough... with sufficient practice.
The trouble is, so I've read, that he doesn't like to practice and doesn't do it as much as he "ought" to. Especially given Metallica's position in the industry/culture.
So he can go into a studio and record a great drum track... but it'll take him a bunch of takes to get right. For the other band members, who've put in the practice and shown up to the studio with their parts dialled in, that's frustrating and the source of a fair amount of tension. And while everyone misses a note or two in the course of an hour+ live show, the lack of practice means Lars tends to fluff a line a bit more frequently than the other members. But also, because of how fundamental the drum track is for keeping everyone else together, when Lars misses it causes more problems for the performance than when James, Kirk or Robert do.
The trouble is, so I've read, that he doesn't like to practice and doesn't do it as much as he "ought" to. Especially given Metallica's position in the industry/culture.
So he can go into a studio and record a great drum track... but it'll take him a bunch of takes to get right. For the other band members, who've put in the practice and shown up to the studio with their parts dialled in, that's frustrating and the source of a fair amount of tension. And while everyone misses a note or two in the course of an hour+ live show, the lack of practice means Lars tends to fluff a line a bit more frequently than the other members. But also, because of how fundamental the drum track is for keeping everyone else together, when Lars misses it causes more problems for the performance than when James, Kirk or Robert do.
Have you seen Metallica live? Lars is allllll over the place with his drumming, to the point where "live" recordings are heavily edited. Nothing wrong with the editing, but if you pull up some videos on youtube comparing fan recording and official release, you'll see how bad it is sometimes.
I'm not even sure that he is a drummer -- that is, someone who has a passion for the instrument and devotes a significant part of his life to improving his technique and skill set.
It is not even up for debate that his playing has deteriorated over the decades. His on-stage blunders would be embarrassing even in a high school band.
I think he just stopped caring at some point, being satisfied with his success and never practicing.
I think he just stopped caring at some point, being satisfied with his success and never practicing.
Well, someone who plays the drums in a band which I and millions of other people enjoy listening to for sure is a drummer. And a good one at that.
Couldn't it be some sort of physical or mental degradation, injuries, addictions etc? Some people are more open about these, some are not. I mean he is 60 soon.
Listen to him in concerts: he can't keep time. In the studio (where he can use a metronome), yes, his drum parts are perfect for the song. But he's just not a good and consistent drummer, and he's gotten worse over time: it seems like he just doesn't practice.
There's even a theory that he doesn't even try to keep time, but instead leaves that to James.
No one's complaining about the style of his drum parts; if he could play them properly, no one would be complaining (aside from the sound of the snare on St. Anger).
There's even a theory that he doesn't even try to keep time, but instead leaves that to James.
No one's complaining about the style of his drum parts; if he could play them properly, no one would be complaining (aside from the sound of the snare on St. Anger).
Thought they have metronome-like things playing in their ear pieces as part of hearing their performance?
Not a musician, but I've never heard of anything like that. I would think that if every band member did that, it would end up just causing confusion. If only the drummer did it, it might work OK, but still, many songs have different tempos in different parts, so I don't think it would be a good solution. Normally, the drummer is supposed to have a very good sense of tempo and control the tempo for the whole band. But again, I'm no pro musician. I did a quick Google search and found these informative links:
https://www.reddit.com/r/drums/comments/7s5t4b/in_ear_metron...
https://drumminginsider.com/do-drummers-use-metronomes/
https://www.reddit.com/r/drums/comments/7s5t4b/in_ear_metron...
https://drumminginsider.com/do-drummers-use-metronomes/
He objectively sucks. He's had all the time in the world to improve his technique (to be on par with an average professional drummer) but he just doesn't care. If you listen to them live you'll immediately hear that he can't even keep the time: the most basic of tasks for the amateur drummer.
Heh. A few of us might remember Camp Chaos’ “Metallicops” vids.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=LeKX2bNP7QM
https://youtube.com/watch?v=mb_jLAisPzk
https://youtube.com/watch?v=LeKX2bNP7QM
https://youtube.com/watch?v=mb_jLAisPzk
That’s why he’s a big part of their success. He understands business. He wasn’t going to stand by and watch his legacy squandered by hippies.
If you have any musician friends who are into metal, ask them what they think of Lars as a drummer. :)
My friends say that he’s not a good drummer. They don’t play for Metallica though and I wish they were a bit more humble.
Also most of them are software engineers and I don’t think they would like to know what I think of their code and documentation.
Also most of them are software engineers and I don’t think they would like to know what I think of their code and documentation.
I don't have to be an actor or movie director to tell you confidently that "Battlefield: Earth" is a bad movie.
I think much of the song arrangement is likely from Lars.
There is a video somewhere of Hammett describing how he shared a riff for one of their songs and Lars said "play that but 3 times them end on that" or something to that effect.
Live performances may not be super tight but it's OK because Hetfield is a better drummer (at least he keeps the rhythm)
There is a video somewhere of Hammett describing how he shared a riff for one of their songs and Lars said "play that but 3 times them end on that" or something to that effect.
Live performances may not be super tight but it's OK because Hetfield is a better drummer (at least he keeps the rhythm)
Metallica would be a lot better if they hired a new drummer, and Lars just became a manager.
For sure, the band is Lars and James. People like to hate on Lars and Hammett out of jealousy I guess, they’re both really successful in a genre that celebrates technical prowess, while not being technical players.
It's not as elaborate as what Metallica does but the Red Hot Chili Peppers change their setlist every show, Anthony Kiedis handwrites them before the show.
If only they'd play Higher Ground. I've seen them multiple times now in different locations and had different setlists (mostly; I found that they do resemble each other a lot) but still not that one damn song!
Doesn't seem to be Frusciante favorite song ;)
https://www.setlist.fm/stats/songs/red-hot-chili-peppers-13d...
https://www.setlist.fm/stats/songs/red-hot-chili-peppers-13d...
To celebrate this new tour fans should watch their music videos on YouTube with ad block enabled. RIP Napster.
What all the set lists have in common is that Lars plays them badly.
and the bass tracks are too high
This reminds me of pg’s submarine article[1]. NYT is being paid to promote Metallica’s tour. Possibly because not enough old people want to go to an expensive concert and young people think Metallica is an Instagram filter or something…
[1] http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html
[1] http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html
That's a good article, amazing how relevant it still is today (18 years later, though paradoxically not much has changed)
The problem with this article is not just that it originated in a PR firm. The whole tone is bogus. This is the tone of someone writing down to their audience.How did you determine nyt is being paid to promote the tour?
Because that's how it works. Having a different list of songs to play in each show is not newsworthy at all
That’s not how PR and newspapers tend to work together - it’s rare that it’s a paid arrangement. The PR company pitches a story on behalf of their client (band, stadium, etc) and perhaps offers interviews or quotes or whatever. If it’s paid, there will be a disclosure. Otherwise, it’s just the paper needing content to sit alongside their advertising.
(Wife worked in PR for a decade.)
(Wife worked in PR for a decade.)
I think this is what the OP meant, based on the essay he linked.
Yes exactly. If it was a direct payment they had to announce it. But it's corrupt payment and that's what pg's article is saying.
I don't think you understand pg's piece or how PR works. The idea is that the article is there because it was pitched by a PR agency rather than the journalist sniffing it out. The grain of sand that creates the pearl is from the PR agency. There's not a corrupt payment; the client pays the PR company, the PR company doesn't pay the publication. The PR company and their client don't need to offer a corrupt payment because they are giving the publication something useful - an easy start on an article - but it's at the editor's discretion whether it makes it to the audience.
A newspaper/magazine/site wants to fill pages with things of interest. Sometimes it's investigative (though often these are built through tip-offs anyway), sometimes it's fluffier. The PR company is briefed by the client and then develops things to pitch that suit a particular publication. They build these relationships over time and don't want to destroy them with consistently bad story pitches. PG's article goes through this.
If there's a business person profiled on the front of the careers liftout, that was the work of their PR company. PG estimated half of the news, but I'd guess it to be higher than that. Once you've seen behind the scenes, you recognise it in almost every article.
I didn't read this Metallica article, but the client could've been Metallica, the venue, or something else. If there are quotes from Metallica, that will almost certainly tell you it was them. The writer doesn't need payment from the client or PR company because they are being handed an interview opportunity on a platter, or exclusive quotes or convinced that some other element of the angle will be of interest to their readers (stage configuration, etc).
A newspaper/magazine/site wants to fill pages with things of interest. Sometimes it's investigative (though often these are built through tip-offs anyway), sometimes it's fluffier. The PR company is briefed by the client and then develops things to pitch that suit a particular publication. They build these relationships over time and don't want to destroy them with consistently bad story pitches. PG's article goes through this.
If there's a business person profiled on the front of the careers liftout, that was the work of their PR company. PG estimated half of the news, but I'd guess it to be higher than that. Once you've seen behind the scenes, you recognise it in almost every article.
I didn't read this Metallica article, but the client could've been Metallica, the venue, or something else. If there are quotes from Metallica, that will almost certainly tell you it was them. The writer doesn't need payment from the client or PR company because they are being handed an interview opportunity on a platter, or exclusive quotes or convinced that some other element of the angle will be of interest to their readers (stage configuration, etc).
That's a pretty heavy accusation to levy without a shred of evidence. The pg article doesn't describe direct payments either from what I read. It describes the symbiotic and borderline corrupt relationship but not money exchanging hands.
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