Amazon insisted I report my missing package to the police(theguardian.com)
theguardian.com
Amazon insisted I report my missing package to the police
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/jun/14/amazon-insisted-i-report-my-missing-package-to-the-police
53 comments
> At least in the US this sort of thing is understandable–if the person is telling the truth it’s usually not a big deal
…says someone who doesn’t understand the experience of community–law-enforcement relations in lots of communities in the US.
…says someone who doesn’t understand the experience of community–law-enforcement relations in lots of communities in the US.
I think the point here is that filing a truthful police report about a stolen item isn’t going to get you in trouble.
This has nothing to do with other systemic issues that are off-topic here.
This has nothing to do with other systemic issues that are off-topic here.
> I think the point here is that filing a truthful police report about a stolen item isn’t going to get you in trouble.
> This has nothing to do with other systemic issues that are off-topic here.
And I rather think my point was that the “other systemic issues” are not off-topic here because they are why police interaction as a reporter/victim is not, and even more relevantly here is not perceived to be risk-free in a number of less-socially-privileged segments of society, and that policies which impose mandatory law enforcement interactions are (and are known to be by firms adopting them) effective means of disincentivizing engagement with whatever function is gatekept by those policies from people in those communities, not merely excluding “scammers”.
> This has nothing to do with other systemic issues that are off-topic here.
And I rather think my point was that the “other systemic issues” are not off-topic here because they are why police interaction as a reporter/victim is not, and even more relevantly here is not perceived to be risk-free in a number of less-socially-privileged segments of society, and that policies which impose mandatory law enforcement interactions are (and are known to be by firms adopting them) effective means of disincentivizing engagement with whatever function is gatekept by those policies from people in those communities, not merely excluding “scammers”.
This is a fail on the policing. A report of an alleged crime should always be marked. Of course they don't want to do their job, or collect statistics that might show they're not doing their job. Also, whatever happened to the 'believe her' campaign? This is the same pattern of issue, people disbelieving the victim of a crime.
This is relates to England, where the recording of crime is subject to very specific rules (Home Office Counting Rules) because of the issue of the police under-recording crime.
Under these circumstances, the author isn't the victim of the crime - the parcel hasn't been delivered so the victim is Amazon. Under HOCR, 3rd party reports can only be taken for rape offences (unless the 3rd party has specific connections, like a parent/guardian).
Amazon know this and they will eventually back down when the case is escalated to someone who knows what they're doing.
Under these circumstances, the author isn't the victim of the crime - the parcel hasn't been delivered so the victim is Amazon. Under HOCR, 3rd party reports can only be taken for rape offences (unless the 3rd party has specific connections, like a parent/guardian).
Amazon know this and they will eventually back down when the case is escalated to someone who knows what they're doing.
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The author doesn't claim to be a victim of a crime though. So you are actually arguing that the police should turn people who don't believe they are victims into victims just for the purpose of making police reports. That seems directly opposed to the spirit of "believing the victim".
All the author is claiming is that their package wasn't delivered. Packages fail to be delivered all the time but that doesn't mean some crime is occurring in every instance.
Even if you take the "delivered to receptionist" as evidence of a crime the author was still not a victim. The item was stolen from the courier not the author.
I think more importantly it doesn't matter if the package failed to be delivered due to a criminal act or a simple mistake. In either case Amazon is equally required to offer redress, so obtaining a police report is a red herring.
All the author is claiming is that their package wasn't delivered. Packages fail to be delivered all the time but that doesn't mean some crime is occurring in every instance.
Even if you take the "delivered to receptionist" as evidence of a crime the author was still not a victim. The item was stolen from the courier not the author.
I think more importantly it doesn't matter if the package failed to be delivered due to a criminal act or a simple mistake. In either case Amazon is equally required to offer redress, so obtaining a police report is a red herring.
Exactly. They act like their responsibility is to dispatch one instance of an item. When actually it is to deliver one instance of an item. Sometimes that means they have to dispatch the item twice and that is not the customers problem.
It's a little much to just say we cannot question people who claim they're a victim. Sexual assault is especially heinous so should have especial consideration. But frankly its absurb to say that we cannot question the dude who got his package and then claimed it was never delivered just because there's an antibusiness zeitgeist going around
Of course we need to question victims, the idea that we shouldn't is completely backwards. Especially sexual assault, victims not being able to withstand questioning is an element of what allows perpetrators to not be caught. Victims need to be expecting investigation into their claims and ready to provide reasonable evidence and reporting in a timely manner.
So the problem is you as the receiver can't say the package was stolen only that you didn't receive it.
If you have a porch camera that shows a theft then that is reportable.
"Amazon says they delivered it but they didn't" could be a paperwork screw up.
If you have a porch camera that shows a theft then that is reportable.
"Amazon says they delivered it but they didn't" could be a paperwork screw up.
Idk if it applies in this specific case, but usually when my package is delivered there is a photo from the carrier. Would that not be evidence?
That lack of such a photo isn't evidence. The presence of such a photo is also not evidence that the package was actually delivered -- there are numerous cases of the delivery people putting the package down, taking the photo, then immediately stealing it.
So, if I were the police, I wouldn't really put much stock in those photos at all. Surveillance camera footage, however, is a different story.
So, if I were the police, I wouldn't really put much stock in those photos at all. Surveillance camera footage, however, is a different story.
> The presence of such a photo is also not evidence that the package was actually delivered
It is evidence.
It is not irrefutable proof, but then evidence usually isn’t.
It is evidence.
It is not irrefutable proof, but then evidence usually isn’t.
True. I should have said it's "weak evidence".
I don't know why a photo wouldn't be evidence. The delivery person stealing doesn't make it not theft.
What I meant was that the delivery person taking a picture of the package sitting on your doorstep is weak evidence that the package was properly delivered, because delivery people have been known to steal the package immediately after they take the "proof of delivery" photo.
What would the crime be? The most likely thing to have happened is the delivery person delivered it to the wrong location.
Perhaps it should be reframed as "Amazon has stolen $ from me"?
Amazon did something like this to me in Seattle last year. Thankfully, I eventually recovered my package from the person who took it when they helpfully delivered it to a train platform downtown.
My solution was to no longer buy things from Amazon.
Target.com and B&H Photo now get my business. They routinely use carriers who understand they should deliver packages to my building's secure foyer and not the public trans shelter around the corner.
(And yes, I could have packages delivered to a locker, but the nearest locker is a further walk than the local Target store, so why would I?)
My solution was to no longer buy things from Amazon.
Target.com and B&H Photo now get my business. They routinely use carriers who understand they should deliver packages to my building's secure foyer and not the public trans shelter around the corner.
(And yes, I could have packages delivered to a locker, but the nearest locker is a further walk than the local Target store, so why would I?)
Does amazon support what3words or pluscodes in addresses? I haven't had to try, since the postal service in my country is exceptional at knowing where people are and what's typically used in my area. Also, postcodes map 1-to-1 onto buildings here so there's no way to have a mixup unless you don't check the address correctly.
File a chargeback to your CC company. Don’t waste your time with Amazon reps after the first call. Chances are they’ll ban you from Amazon which makes it easier to transition to other services.
My bank just said that there was "no error" when I did this after Amazon failed to deliver something last year. I imagine that Amazon makes up a good portion of their chargeback complaints now.
Separately, I had my bank block Amazon Prime from charging my debit card. It shows up as a different merchant so they were do it and I can still make one-off purchases (which I don't like to any longer). I did this because the UI to cancel Amazon Prime did not work on my new, updated MacBook. It did not respond to clicks on the "confirm cancel" or whatever button.
Separately, I had my bank block Amazon Prime from charging my debit card. It shows up as a different merchant so they were do it and I can still make one-off purchases (which I don't like to any longer). I did this because the UI to cancel Amazon Prime did not work on my new, updated MacBook. It did not respond to clicks on the "confirm cancel" or whatever button.
This wasn't for a US customer. Americans hold a lot of power when wielding chargebacks.
I ran a small company for 10 years (I just closed it during the pandemic) and we bought lots of stuff on Amazon.
The latest scam I ran into was that I would get a tracking number that matched my city and state. USPS doesn't usually put any other information on the tracking number, so Amazon would claim it was delivered.
The scammer would order a very small package (less than a lb) to a random address in our city and then use that tracking number to scam me out of hundreds of dollars.
I was only ever able to get my money back by going to my USPS office and getting a manager to sign and date a form that said that the package was not delivered to my address. Due to privacy concerns, I could never see the destination address.
It's a huge inconvenience and most people won't go through this (or even know they need to get this info from a manger).
The latest scam I ran into was that I would get a tracking number that matched my city and state. USPS doesn't usually put any other information on the tracking number, so Amazon would claim it was delivered.
The scammer would order a very small package (less than a lb) to a random address in our city and then use that tracking number to scam me out of hundreds of dollars.
I was only ever able to get my money back by going to my USPS office and getting a manager to sign and date a form that said that the package was not delivered to my address. Due to privacy concerns, I could never see the destination address.
It's a huge inconvenience and most people won't go through this (or even know they need to get this info from a manger).
You mention your company has closed ... but FWIW:
Next time try the United States Postal Inspection Service. They are a full federal law enforcement agency with nationwide jurisdiction and might be interested in a case like this (IDK how much they are kicking-down-doors-guns-blazing or investigating dog-bites-mail-person cases).
I once had a law enforcement friend tell me that if you're ever buying items on eBay and are worried about scams, pay for it with a USPS money order (by mail) because any scams would then be mail fraud for the USPIS to investigate vs. your local PD who isn't going to be able to do much if the scammer is elsewhere.
YMMV!
Next time try the United States Postal Inspection Service. They are a full federal law enforcement agency with nationwide jurisdiction and might be interested in a case like this (IDK how much they are kicking-down-doors-guns-blazing or investigating dog-bites-mail-person cases).
I once had a law enforcement friend tell me that if you're ever buying items on eBay and are worried about scams, pay for it with a USPS money order (by mail) because any scams would then be mail fraud for the USPIS to investigate vs. your local PD who isn't going to be able to do much if the scammer is elsewhere.
YMMV!
Does this apply to my AWS machine with a misconfigured Docker container?
Sooner or later the house of cards is bound to fall down
I was expecting something a bit pricier than £71.97
I wonder how successful filing in a small claims court would be.
Very successful at getting your Amazon account banned, I’m sure.
I was lead to this absurdity after reading another fail: https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/aug/31/my-1399-laptop...
Amazon, having predicated their reputation on amazing customer focussed service, now seem to be the epitome of the opposite.
Amazon, having predicated their reputation on amazing customer focussed service, now seem to be the epitome of the opposite.
This is written in a confusing way.
So Amazon claims this isn't a real requirement, that it was a rep error, and refunded the author?
So Amazon claims this isn't a real requirement, that it was a rep error, and refunded the author?
Do I have to be a reporter with a major news outlet to get decent customer service? I've been having a reoccurring problem with Amazon that I've failed to get resolved with the online/phone/email customer service and I'm at my wits end. Amazon packaging insists on packing heavy bulky items (like a multi-pack carton of liquids) with delicate items resulting in the delicate items being damaged. It's clearly a packing problem, but there is no way for the customer service agents to annotate this in the packing system. I'm so tired of dealing with Amazon and trying to figure out the best way to get issues resolved with them. It's always refunded, but that doesn't fix the issue - I want it to stop happening and spending my time dealing with it.
> email customer service
Did you try reaching out to executive customer relations, either through [email protected] or [email protected]? (FWIW Jeff's address still works despite him stepping down 2 years ago)
Always had a very quick response and resolution whenever I had an issue that was beyond the ability of "normal" customer service to resolve.
Did you try reaching out to executive customer relations, either through [email protected] or [email protected]? (FWIW Jeff's address still works despite him stepping down 2 years ago)
Always had a very quick response and resolution whenever I had an issue that was beyond the ability of "normal" customer service to resolve.
I'd strongly suggest ^
This approach is incredibly effective, and will almost certainly guarantee one of the infamous "question mark" emails gets sent out. There's a whole process built around question mark emails that drags in a bunch of senior staff to ensure things get resolved.
You can read about it here: https://www.inc.com/business-insider/amazon-founder-ceo-jeff...
I've been on the receiving end of an ajassy question mark email once. That was an interesting way to spend a few days. The customer was complaining about slow uploads to the aws service I worked on. All I had to go from was their country, via some guesswork. They did at least mention which region it was they were having issues with.
It took a bit of effort but I was able to prove from service logs, to a reasonable degree, that the problem was with their ISP. All I had to go from was what country they were in, didn't know their ISP, which added to the fun.
This approach is incredibly effective, and will almost certainly guarantee one of the infamous "question mark" emails gets sent out. There's a whole process built around question mark emails that drags in a bunch of senior staff to ensure things get resolved.
You can read about it here: https://www.inc.com/business-insider/amazon-founder-ceo-jeff...
I've been on the receiving end of an ajassy question mark email once. That was an interesting way to spend a few days. The customer was complaining about slow uploads to the aws service I worked on. All I had to go from was their country, via some guesswork. They did at least mention which region it was they were having issues with.
It took a bit of effort but I was able to prove from service logs, to a reasonable degree, that the problem was with their ISP. All I had to go from was what country they were in, didn't know their ISP, which added to the fun.
Effective because so few do it. It’s just not scalable.
When you publicly proclaim yourself the "World's Supermarket," scalability arguments fall flat. If you conduct twelve figures' worth of business per annum, you can afford to answer your phone.
You can also afford yo noy answer your phone. This is the problem.
Maybe not, but claiming that you work for a news organization when someone attempts to lazy their way out of making a business deal right is an easy way to get the service you should have received in the first place.
I was in the middle of getting scammed by a company out of Lithuania when I mentioned that I was going to turn this information over to a reporter at a company I work for, and the tone of the CS person changed from "I can't help you" to "yes, we will give you an immediate and complete refund."
I was in the middle of getting scammed by a company out of Lithuania when I mentioned that I was going to turn this information over to a reporter at a company I work for, and the tone of the CS person changed from "I can't help you" to "yes, we will give you an immediate and complete refund."
This happens to me basically everywhere. Recently, $300 of crap from Target soaked in laundry detergent. Usually the amounts are small enough that they say not to return the items - I pay the cleaning price and at least most of the stuff doesn't go to waste. But this time they wanted it all sent back, so have fun with that (and they wouldn't even cross-ship). It still boggles my mind how they're able to waste so much stuff and lose so much money seemingly without care.
The only mitigation I've found is to make multiple orders separating out heavy/bulky/liquid/light/fragile items, shipping cutoffs permitting. But of course this is less likely to work with Amazon where they coalesce different orders. (The latest incident was due to forgetting to do this, which should be their job, for them)
The only mitigation I've found is to make multiple orders separating out heavy/bulky/liquid/light/fragile items, shipping cutoffs permitting. But of course this is less likely to work with Amazon where they coalesce different orders. (The latest incident was due to forgetting to do this, which should be their job, for them)
Use a different company.
Order them one hour apart
Amazon often combines separate orders for shipping so this approach wouldn't work unless you waited for the first order to ship before placing the second.
They won’t do it if you ship to a different name at the same address.
I've always hoped they would do this but haven't been able to get them to even when I try. Like, going out of my way to select "Amazon day delivery" nearly a week out, and separate orders within a day of each other still come separately or even on different days.
I'm sure it just comes down to what's available in what distribution centers, how big the order backlog is, Prime status, etc. The algorithm that makes those decisions would be fascinating to study.
Why should I have to?
If you don’t then we arrive at yet another scenario in life where no one learns anything.
Same issue multiple times. I recently got an SD card with no protection delivered in the same box as 2 heavy 12-packs of canned drinks. Could barely find the card in the box.
Odd, something similar just happened to me for the first time.
Amazon says they delivered my package, but their picture confirmation of delivery wasn't even my package. I looked outside and couldn't find the package anyway.
If I wanted to mark the package as lost, Amazon says to wait three days as if the package will magically manifest itself. Amazon also says to ask all my neighbors as if delivering my package to someone else is expected.
Lo and behold, the correct package was delivered on the third day without any notification whatsoever.
The fact that the correct package was eventually delivered seems to indicate that Amazon knows there's a discrepancy between their internally- and externally-facing systems and they've built a bunch of speed bumps (like a three-day waiting period) to reduce customer discontent.
Amazon says they delivered my package, but their picture confirmation of delivery wasn't even my package. I looked outside and couldn't find the package anyway.
If I wanted to mark the package as lost, Amazon says to wait three days as if the package will magically manifest itself. Amazon also says to ask all my neighbors as if delivering my package to someone else is expected.
Lo and behold, the correct package was delivered on the third day without any notification whatsoever.
The fact that the correct package was eventually delivered seems to indicate that Amazon knows there's a discrepancy between their internally- and externally-facing systems and they've built a bunch of speed bumps (like a three-day waiting period) to reduce customer discontent.
From what I've seen, packages that are marked delivered and then show up a day or two later are one of two things. Either the courier trying to falsely keep their on time stats and daily quotas up despite not being able to (Goodhart's law). Or a misdelivery to a neighbor who either brings it by or leaves it out so the courier informally picks it up and redelivers.
Insurance companies often do the same thing--it's not about catching crooks, it's about making lying much higher risk.