Ask HN: How to cope with constant fear of getting laid off?
39 comments
Fear is usually based in an abstract concern. Try to make it more concrete. What are you actually afraid of?
For example, you're probably not actually afraid of losing your job, but losing your paycheck. But you're not actually afraid of losing your paycheck, you're afraid of not paying your bills. But you're not actually afraid of not paying your bills, you're afraid of being evicted. But you're not actually afraid of being evicted, you're afraid of where you'll live afterwards. And then you realize you haven't actually thought about this situation, so it's just an abstract worry.
So your entire fear base is based on this abstract fear of "What will I do? I'll be screwed." If you dig into it more, you'll find concrete solutions. You might realize you have lots of savings so getting evicted due to not paying rent is really unlikely. And if you do get evicted, you can just go crash at a friend's place while you figure out your next steps. And worst case if no next steps happen, you can live with your parents. Etc etc.
I often find when doing this exercise is that what I'm actually afraid of is very unlikely to happen. It's the worst version of the worst scenario. And even if it does happen, it's actually not that bad and I can handle the situation just fine.
For example, you're probably not actually afraid of losing your job, but losing your paycheck. But you're not actually afraid of losing your paycheck, you're afraid of not paying your bills. But you're not actually afraid of not paying your bills, you're afraid of being evicted. But you're not actually afraid of being evicted, you're afraid of where you'll live afterwards. And then you realize you haven't actually thought about this situation, so it's just an abstract worry.
So your entire fear base is based on this abstract fear of "What will I do? I'll be screwed." If you dig into it more, you'll find concrete solutions. You might realize you have lots of savings so getting evicted due to not paying rent is really unlikely. And if you do get evicted, you can just go crash at a friend's place while you figure out your next steps. And worst case if no next steps happen, you can live with your parents. Etc etc.
I often find when doing this exercise is that what I'm actually afraid of is very unlikely to happen. It's the worst version of the worst scenario. And even if it does happen, it's actually not that bad and I can handle the situation just fine.
I understand. You have lots of things to worry about. Try to take things one at a time. The two biggest concerns I'd have in your shoes:
* money
* visa status
Money is probably a bit easier to deal with, so I'd focus on building your financial runway. Save whatever you can. Cut costs. I don't know your living situation at all, but think about big things (where you live, what you drive/how you commute) and little things (going out, subscriptions). Examine your expenses and come up with a barebones number. Is it $1000/month? $3,000? $6,000? I don't know, but you should figure that out. Then you can decide how many months or years of runway you'd need to feel comfortable, and aim to save that much.
Next, the visa issue. Others have suggested consulting an immigration lawyer. That makes a lot of sense to me. At the least, you'll know your situation more precisely (how many days after a layoff you'd have to find a job, what it would take to change your status, whether you can leave and work remotely, etc). Other options would be to start interviewing at companies who can provide you a visa, or making plans to return to your home country. Again, I don't know your situation, so can't make recommendations on which to choose.
Finally, I think it's important to acknowledge that you are probably valuable to your current employer. Why? Because you've survived 3 layoffs. So you are either a good employee, in a division that is doing relatively well, or both. If you want to stay at this company, I'd focus on that to help get you through the day.
I'm sorry you're in such a tough spot.
* money
* visa status
Money is probably a bit easier to deal with, so I'd focus on building your financial runway. Save whatever you can. Cut costs. I don't know your living situation at all, but think about big things (where you live, what you drive/how you commute) and little things (going out, subscriptions). Examine your expenses and come up with a barebones number. Is it $1000/month? $3,000? $6,000? I don't know, but you should figure that out. Then you can decide how many months or years of runway you'd need to feel comfortable, and aim to save that much.
Next, the visa issue. Others have suggested consulting an immigration lawyer. That makes a lot of sense to me. At the least, you'll know your situation more precisely (how many days after a layoff you'd have to find a job, what it would take to change your status, whether you can leave and work remotely, etc). Other options would be to start interviewing at companies who can provide you a visa, or making plans to return to your home country. Again, I don't know your situation, so can't make recommendations on which to choose.
Finally, I think it's important to acknowledge that you are probably valuable to your current employer. Why? Because you've survived 3 layoffs. So you are either a good employee, in a division that is doing relatively well, or both. If you want to stay at this company, I'd focus on that to help get you through the day.
I'm sorry you're in such a tough spot.
> Because you've survived 3 layoffs. So you are either a good employee, in a division that is doing relatively well, or both.
I should emphasize that if someone is laid off, that doesn't mean they aren't a good employee. Sometimes layoffs just happen and you're in the wrong place at the wrong time. Strategies shift or priorities change.
I should emphasize that if someone is laid off, that doesn't mean they aren't a good employee. Sometimes layoffs just happen and you're in the wrong place at the wrong time. Strategies shift or priorities change.
This is such an important point that most of the people don't get. For example, at one of my friend's company that hired a lot during pandemic and then did massive layoffs, the criteria to layoff was simple: Start with the newest hires in last 2 years (probably also highest paid). Then, if still need to fire more, layoff the lowest performing employees.
I hope your visa allows you to switch jobs. In that case, get yourself job ready and switch jobs.
If your visa doesn't allow switching there are a few options:
1. H-1B at a research institution. These visas are available year round and don't have a cap. The pay will be bad, but it will let you stay in the US.
2. O-1 visa: this is harder, but not as hard as people think
3. Enroll for studies: If you have savings, you can switch to F-1, get a new degree that hopefully will enhance your earnings.
4. Look into immigration to Canada/UK/Germany which are trying to attract tech talent from the broken US immigration system.
If your visa doesn't allow switching there are a few options:
1. H-1B at a research institution. These visas are available year round and don't have a cap. The pay will be bad, but it will let you stay in the US.
2. O-1 visa: this is harder, but not as hard as people think
3. Enroll for studies: If you have savings, you can switch to F-1, get a new degree that hopefully will enhance your earnings.
4. Look into immigration to Canada/UK/Germany which are trying to attract tech talent from the broken US immigration system.
Your fear is counterproductive and you need to realize this as hard as it sounds.
If your fear blocks you from doing a good job the chance for you to get fired is higher.
The fear itself also blocks you from thinking which you need to do to take the necessary actions.
Accept first that this is 'just' how it is and yes it would be tremendously shitty and a lot of work if your worst case scenario happens BUT it would happen anyway.
So what to do?
1. Accept your situation. Talk to your partner you are not alone and together this problem already is smaller.
2. Start spending time on things which can help you: reduce house hold clutter, cleanup your CV, work well in your day job, rethink a nother country (Canada, Germany, etc)
Good luck!
If your fear blocks you from doing a good job the chance for you to get fired is higher.
The fear itself also blocks you from thinking which you need to do to take the necessary actions.
Accept first that this is 'just' how it is and yes it would be tremendously shitty and a lot of work if your worst case scenario happens BUT it would happen anyway.
So what to do?
1. Accept your situation. Talk to your partner you are not alone and together this problem already is smaller.
2. Start spending time on things which can help you: reduce house hold clutter, cleanup your CV, work well in your day job, rethink a nother country (Canada, Germany, etc)
Good luck!
Fear is the mind killer. Not just a movie quote - a guideline for coping with uncertain times ahead.
this is exactly what's happening, fear is killing my mind, day by day I am getting worse and doing stupid mistakes. while talking to management my blood pressure going up, because I fear if leadership thinks I am not good, I will be laid off soon
As other commenters point out, you actually fear deportation if you lose your US visa. Getting laid off might cause that to happen.
Talk to a competent immigration attorney so you understand your options. The US offers a lot of visas.
A company circling the drain and going through rounds of layoffs will get to you eventually. If the company doesn't have huge problems that make you think it will lay everyone off and go out of business or get sold for IP, do what you can to keep the job. Make yourself indispensable. Do something no one else wants to do. I kept a job through three rounds of layoffs that took people senior to me by making myself the only person who understood the product database. Another guy at the same company knew the build process better than anyone else and survived as long as I did. We both had some time and runway to find other jobs instead biting our nails waiting for the surprise Friday afternoon meeting with HR.
I can't give specific advice, but you need to figure out how to keep your job, and that may mean stepping out of your comfort zone. One thing for sure: worrying and living in fear of something you may not have a lot of control over won't help, you need to take control of your life.
Talk to a competent immigration attorney so you understand your options. The US offers a lot of visas.
A company circling the drain and going through rounds of layoffs will get to you eventually. If the company doesn't have huge problems that make you think it will lay everyone off and go out of business or get sold for IP, do what you can to keep the job. Make yourself indispensable. Do something no one else wants to do. I kept a job through three rounds of layoffs that took people senior to me by making myself the only person who understood the product database. Another guy at the same company knew the build process better than anyone else and survived as long as I did. We both had some time and runway to find other jobs instead biting our nails waiting for the surprise Friday afternoon meeting with HR.
I can't give specific advice, but you need to figure out how to keep your job, and that may mean stepping out of your comfort zone. One thing for sure: worrying and living in fear of something you may not have a lot of control over won't help, you need to take control of your life.
This is a tough situation to live through. If I remember how US visas work, there's usually some kind of time limit you have to stay employed for, after which you're allowed to stay in the country. That's probably where I would start if I were in your shoes: Figure out how much longer I need to survive before this part of my life suddenly becomes derisked. If there's, say, only 3 months left, then you're probably in a pretty fair position. If it's 3.5 years ... Maybe it's best to have a backup plan ready, just in case.
I've heard it estimated to me informally that the final cost for a company to sponsor a foreign citizen on a visa is around $5-10,000. That's a fair chunk of change, and some hassle in the meanwhile, but if you can get a good worker at a below market price many businesses would be willing to take the risk on hiring you. The risk of them losing you is also much smaller because of the visa situation, so don't think it's a hopeless sell by any means.
If it is at all possible, I would keep a minimum of $10,000 lying around in some easily-liquidatable form in case the oh shit moment finally drops. The reason you would want this is because you might have to break a rent contact, incurring a fine; move states; and start a new rent contract, all in very short order. That's a lot to have on your plate at once. You might have to buy a beater car if you don't have one already, etc. But you have the chance now to at least ensure you can survive if you end up in that situation. Never doubt the robustness and peace of mind a good solid chunk of savings can afford you.
If none of that pans out and you get ousted, you can at least pat yourself on the back and tell yourself you made the most logical moves afforded to you in the situation. With US techie experience you'll find it easier to break into other markets as well. I for example moved to Finland from the US a few years ago, almost right after graduating college, and the immigration policies here are miles easier to get through. The US is known worldwide for being a famously brutal market to work in, so that experience will travel well.
I've heard it estimated to me informally that the final cost for a company to sponsor a foreign citizen on a visa is around $5-10,000. That's a fair chunk of change, and some hassle in the meanwhile, but if you can get a good worker at a below market price many businesses would be willing to take the risk on hiring you. The risk of them losing you is also much smaller because of the visa situation, so don't think it's a hopeless sell by any means.
If it is at all possible, I would keep a minimum of $10,000 lying around in some easily-liquidatable form in case the oh shit moment finally drops. The reason you would want this is because you might have to break a rent contact, incurring a fine; move states; and start a new rent contract, all in very short order. That's a lot to have on your plate at once. You might have to buy a beater car if you don't have one already, etc. But you have the chance now to at least ensure you can survive if you end up in that situation. Never doubt the robustness and peace of mind a good solid chunk of savings can afford you.
If none of that pans out and you get ousted, you can at least pat yourself on the back and tell yourself you made the most logical moves afforded to you in the situation. With US techie experience you'll find it easier to break into other markets as well. I for example moved to Finland from the US a few years ago, almost right after graduating college, and the immigration policies here are miles easier to get through. The US is known worldwide for being a famously brutal market to work in, so that experience will travel well.
Good advice, but instead of a 10k emergency fund, you can be more precisely prepared by calculating your monthly expenses and using that multiplied by 3-6 months (how long does it take to find another job).
As far as I know there is no set amount of time that automatically makes a nonresident alien a resident. The company you work for has to sponsor your green card like they do the H1B.
I have been there for long periods of time. It is awful.
the fear really damages your mental health. The longer it goes on, it will drive you crazy and make you do inadvisable things and get paranoid.
My recommendation is make use of video therapists and career coaches to help you make better decisions.
If you talk to your peers, you are giving too much information to people around you. It’s a bad idea.
You can usually find virtual career coaches and therapists. Work through with them. It is a great idea to rely on outside help.
Your family : wife can’t help you. My experience is talking to my family and wife didn’t help. They just don’t understand.
A coach is actually incentivized to be objective and help you talk through problems and find solutions.
Keeping all this struggle in your head, you will make bad decisions and you are not objective. You are in an emotional space.
A coach can help provide a neutral 3rd party.
They can also help you brainstorm a practical strategy, how to talk and how to get to a better place and steps to take and accountability to have important conversations such as with your manager.
It costs money but the alternative is to go into a fear spiral and shut down and ruin your mental health.
It’s worth it.
I started talking to someone semi regularly and it is so incredibly useful to have someone confirming and validating your experience.
For example, I was in a toxic and disrespectful environment and by coach immediately called that out. No one around me or my boss would admit it was a bad environment.
The most dangerous thing you can do is sharing too much information with your peers or manager about your situation. I have learned not to ever talk to others around me about what I am going through.
They are your competition or looking for reasons to flag you.
Only a paid coach is going to be your friend. That’s how it is. We are in a dog eat dog environment. Any weakness signs are often a death sentence in such environments.
I also recommend improving nutrition. Eat a fruit : vegetable shake every morning to improve your health.
If you have a mineral or similar deficiency it can cause additional problems managing your emotions and with your self confidence.
the fear really damages your mental health. The longer it goes on, it will drive you crazy and make you do inadvisable things and get paranoid.
My recommendation is make use of video therapists and career coaches to help you make better decisions.
If you talk to your peers, you are giving too much information to people around you. It’s a bad idea.
You can usually find virtual career coaches and therapists. Work through with them. It is a great idea to rely on outside help.
Your family : wife can’t help you. My experience is talking to my family and wife didn’t help. They just don’t understand.
A coach is actually incentivized to be objective and help you talk through problems and find solutions.
Keeping all this struggle in your head, you will make bad decisions and you are not objective. You are in an emotional space.
A coach can help provide a neutral 3rd party.
They can also help you brainstorm a practical strategy, how to talk and how to get to a better place and steps to take and accountability to have important conversations such as with your manager.
It costs money but the alternative is to go into a fear spiral and shut down and ruin your mental health.
It’s worth it.
I started talking to someone semi regularly and it is so incredibly useful to have someone confirming and validating your experience.
For example, I was in a toxic and disrespectful environment and by coach immediately called that out. No one around me or my boss would admit it was a bad environment.
The most dangerous thing you can do is sharing too much information with your peers or manager about your situation. I have learned not to ever talk to others around me about what I am going through.
They are your competition or looking for reasons to flag you.
Only a paid coach is going to be your friend. That’s how it is. We are in a dog eat dog environment. Any weakness signs are often a death sentence in such environments.
I also recommend improving nutrition. Eat a fruit : vegetable shake every morning to improve your health.
If you have a mineral or similar deficiency it can cause additional problems managing your emotions and with your self confidence.
Can you please share any tips on how to find a career coach? I can web search, but any advice you can give based on what you have learned would be great. Thanks.
Try exec.com, there is a directory
Find someone similar to your problems.
There are many others listed on LinkedIn and Twitter (X) if you search.
In terms of tips, the best advice I follow is having 90 day plans with set objectives and then coming back to them and checking on your progress.
With a coach the tip is honestly you meet with them regularly and talk through your problem to get outside perspective.
That is the tip.
You can try to solve all your own problems by watching YouTube videos, but it just is not the same as having someone to solve problems together with.
If you have a complicated situation; YouTube is not going to help. It is not customized to you.
Find someone similar to your problems.
There are many others listed on LinkedIn and Twitter (X) if you search.
In terms of tips, the best advice I follow is having 90 day plans with set objectives and then coming back to them and checking on your progress.
With a coach the tip is honestly you meet with them regularly and talk through your problem to get outside perspective.
That is the tip.
You can try to solve all your own problems by watching YouTube videos, but it just is not the same as having someone to solve problems together with.
If you have a complicated situation; YouTube is not going to help. It is not customized to you.
Thanks, I really appreciate it.
I'm living on a business visa, somewhere in Asia. I am a freelancer, on long to medium term contracts (6-12 months), but my clients may cancel my contract at any 3 month notice, depending on how they feels (that's the nature of the game). Which would mean that my business visa is in limbo, and I potentially need to return to where I came from; which for me would be fatal at this point (economically, spiritually & socially).
The way I cope with this, is by making sure that my current contract does not define my future. I'm always interviewing and networking with new companies & clients (3-4x per month), and am working on my own startup, which after +1 year is slowly getting users. Perhaps there is no perfect advice here, but I cope by making sure that my job is as replaceable as me. I also have backup plans for if my visa doesn't work work out (spend some time in another country, where I already made plans to get around if my visa becomes a problem).
The way I cope with this, is by making sure that my current contract does not define my future. I'm always interviewing and networking with new companies & clients (3-4x per month), and am working on my own startup, which after +1 year is slowly getting users. Perhaps there is no perfect advice here, but I cope by making sure that my job is as replaceable as me. I also have backup plans for if my visa doesn't work work out (spend some time in another country, where I already made plans to get around if my visa becomes a problem).
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Simple, read some Epitectus and realize that you have no more power over being laid off or not than anything else.
"We have no power over external things, and the good that ought to be the object of our earnest pursuit, is to be found only within ourselves".
I've gone through two layoffs unscathed this year so far, both times I was more or less unconcerned with the outcome, because firstly I don't feel defined by my job, and secondly I'd kind of enjoy the challenge of getting something new. Granted having some savings does help, but focus on yourself, what you can do and you talents and you'll do alright
"We have no power over external things, and the good that ought to be the object of our earnest pursuit, is to be found only within ourselves".
I've gone through two layoffs unscathed this year so far, both times I was more or less unconcerned with the outcome, because firstly I don't feel defined by my job, and secondly I'd kind of enjoy the challenge of getting something new. Granted having some savings does help, but focus on yourself, what you can do and you talents and you'll do alright
Embrace it, embrace the journey, don’t have expectations on anything, personal, professional, or anything. I have seen people going suicidal because they can’t do X, simply because they kept anchoring that thing as the basis of their own life, success, and happiness, and if they are denied that thing they go crazy. Look at your life as a boat in a big ocean, wherever it takes you, you and everyone will end up to the same destination, so enjoy the ride!
Focus on your professional relationships above all else. Do great work for your peers, have fun collaborating with them, and think of them and the 'real company' you work for. You'll look out for each other, and find opportunities together. Continue finding new peers this way, rinse, repeat...
You can't control what capitalism does, but you can at least find great people you love working with, and enjoy the ride.
You can't control what capitalism does, but you can at least find great people you love working with, and enjoy the ride.
If I were you and I could go back home, I would have done so without thinking much about it.
There's no way I would risk my health again after what I went through from my first job; stomach ulcer is not a joke; I still suffer from it.
Weigh things what's best for you and move quickly before you regret it; it will be the best thing you will do to yourself!
There's no way I would risk my health again after what I went through from my first job; stomach ulcer is not a joke; I still suffer from it.
Weigh things what's best for you and move quickly before you regret it; it will be the best thing you will do to yourself!
can't edit my post, but thanks everyone for the support and advice! all of them are really helpful
Study up on Britain during World War 2. You could get bombed by the Germans any time.
Prepare for the worst case. If it happens, you were prepared.
Use the time to write applications. I did that while working in a temp contractor company, they play the same game making people afraid of losing such a shitty job.
My behaviour was completly different then, i went there knowing i shit on their desk on the last day, what i literally did.
I clocked out earlier and went home, i ignored all call from the stupid fucks.
Went to the interview and won a great job.
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The more you are attached to something, the harder it is for you to cope. If visa situation doesn't work out, be positive about the alternative: going back to another country or home country and start your life there. Since people don't want to focus on alternatives, they get depressed.
you are absolutely right, there is always a choice, but some choices are bad and they are at the end of your choice list, so deep that you don't even consider it anymore as an option.
Have you thought about quitting and returning to your home country?
just get laid off! then it'll be impossible to worry about.
worry about what's in front of you, do your best.
maybe taking a proactive step about layoffs will prevent your worry. hatch a scheme. make a move. secure your job.
worry about what's in front of you, do your best.
maybe taking a proactive step about layoffs will prevent your worry. hatch a scheme. make a move. secure your job.
If I get laid off, need to immediately go back to my corrupt country. Do I want my kids get absolute bad education, bad environment to grow up? No.
It's not easy to get visa to USA again
It's not easy to get visa to USA again
Try to get a job that’s less risky w.r.t. impending layoffs, even if it pays less or has fewer career opportunities.
That could even be in a country that has better rules for work visa holders that get unemployed. For example (https://immigration-portal.ec.europa.eu/blue-card/essential-...) “If you become unemployed, you have three months to find a new job. If you are still unemployed after three months, your EU Blue Card may be withdrawn”. That’s far from ideal, but better than “immediately”.
Also, save as much money as you can. Having to return home while having savings may be a bit easier.
That could even be in a country that has better rules for work visa holders that get unemployed. For example (https://immigration-portal.ec.europa.eu/blue-card/essential-...) “If you become unemployed, you have three months to find a new job. If you are still unemployed after three months, your EU Blue Card may be withdrawn”. That’s far from ideal, but better than “immediately”.
Also, save as much money as you can. Having to return home while having savings may be a bit easier.
Ok the problem is the loss of visa then. Not normal layoff.
you are not wrong. Problem is, consequences layoff might bring to our lives. For some people finding a job is taking 3-4 months, financially I can afford myself not having any job for a year, but visa makes it very difficult for us to stay.
As if our US 0f A is not corrupt, but you can believe what ever makes you happy
it is, but I haven't noticed it in smaller scale, daily things. You don't bribe school to take your kid, you don't bribe kindergarten and many other places. Every country has different issues, but USA has 1st world issues, compare it to other countries where people are starving. Totally different topic to debate
You don't need a visa anymore.
What do I do? how to cope with it?