NY bill would require a criminal history check for the purchase of a 3D printer(nysenate.gov)
nysenate.gov
NY bill would require a criminal history check for the purchase of a 3D printer
https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/bills/2023/A8132
137 comments
It's so tiring to have these kinds of conversations with folks who do not understand the legislative process. There's no need to treat the legislator like an idiot. She's doing what EVERY legislator does, which is to identify a problem ("printed guns are a loophole in how we manage guns in this state") and saying she wants to find a solution to that problem. One mechanism by which legislators do that is by writing draft bills and then helping it through the legislative process to be improved, sorta like how you'd write a draft essay for a college class and then go back for a second and third pass before submitting it. As part of this process, people who are in favor of no legislation will come forward, people who are in favor of strong legislation will come forward, she'll hear their advice and feedback. If she's lucky, the bill will be seen by a committee who will hold hearings and re-draft it.
When you see a "ready to go bill," it's either been through a dozen-step process in this legislative session OR it's been brought up in a dozen different sessions and been improved along the way as legislators have to re-introduce all the bills they are sponsoring in each legislative session.
The legislator is not an expert in the issue, and I doubt she's claiming she is. She's proposing the broad strokes of a solution to a problem she sees. The point is not to pass the bill in its current form – it's to figure out how to solve the problem, using this general idea as the starting point.
When you see a "ready to go bill," it's either been through a dozen-step process in this legislative session OR it's been brought up in a dozen different sessions and been improved along the way as legislators have to re-introduce all the bills they are sponsoring in each legislative session.
The legislator is not an expert in the issue, and I doubt she's claiming she is. She's proposing the broad strokes of a solution to a problem she sees. The point is not to pass the bill in its current form – it's to figure out how to solve the problem, using this general idea as the starting point.
> There's no need to treat the legislator like an idiot.
But the legislator is an idiot, and should be treated like one. They aren't identifying a problem and trying to solve it, they are engaging in performative legislation for the benefit of their donors. That should not be rewarded, on either side of the aisle.
But the legislator is an idiot, and should be treated like one. They aren't identifying a problem and trying to solve it, they are engaging in performative legislation for the benefit of their donors. That should not be rewarded, on either side of the aisle.
Fundamentally though, the 'problem' she sees, is it really a problem?
How many gun deaths in the past 10 years were related to 3d printed guns or gun parts? Is that number greater than 1% of gun deaths in the past year of the same area? (1% of gun deaths in 10yrs / 1% in 1 year)
If it's not, than I would surmise that this is a non-issue nor a problem. And that instead it is a older representative that needs to retire instead of proposing laws that drastically damage the fr edoms of the citizenry. To take away the democratization of manufacturing plastic parts from its citizens will irreparably damage the community this legislature feigns to serve.
How many gun deaths in the past 10 years were related to 3d printed guns or gun parts? Is that number greater than 1% of gun deaths in the past year of the same area? (1% of gun deaths in 10yrs / 1% in 1 year)
If it's not, than I would surmise that this is a non-issue nor a problem. And that instead it is a older representative that needs to retire instead of proposing laws that drastically damage the fr edoms of the citizenry. To take away the democratization of manufacturing plastic parts from its citizens will irreparably damage the community this legislature feigns to serve.
I dont think NY puts the threshold at 1% of gun deaths. FWIW guns that NY defines as assault weapons are responsible for less than 1% of gun deaths and around 0% of all murders, but they still spend a disproportionate amount of effort legislating them
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> There's no need to treat the legislator like an idiot. She's doing what EVERY legislator does, which is to identify a problem ("printed guns are a loophole in how we manage guns in this state") and saying she wants to find a solution to that problem. One mechanism by which legislators do that is by writing draft bills and then helping it through the legislative process to be improved
One normally researches a topic to become at least somewhat knowledgeable to put forth a somewhat reasonable solution to the identified problem. There is zero nuance in this bill. It essentially requires a background check for every 3d printer. I would find it hard to believe you could find a 3d printer that was not capable of printing a firearm component. I'm sure you could find a way to include those pens.
> sorta like how you'd write a draft essay for a college class and then go back for a second and third pass before submitting it.
I would fail a middle schooler for purposing this as a solution. A bill as simple as this one is simply zero effort or intentionally malicious.
> When you see a "ready to go bill," it's either been through a dozen-step process in this legislative session OR it's been brought up in a dozen different sessions and been improved along the way as legislators have to re-introduce all the bills they are sponsoring in each legislative session.
Any bill I've seen introduced that isn't simply looking for a participation trophy looks like there was some thought into it. This was zero thought or intentionally malicious.
> The legislator is not an expert in the issue, and I doubt she's claiming she is. She's proposing the broad strokes of a solution to a problem she sees. The point is not to pass the bill in its current form – it's to figure out how to solve the problem, using this general idea as the starting point.
Broad strokes? This is not broad strokes. Broad strokes might be only requiring it for metal 3d printers. Or have something to do with printing volume. This is about as full on nuclear as you can get without banning them. Maybe they should talk to some experts beforehand? This solution is basically the same as putting forth that everyone should stop breathing as a solution to global warming. Sure it is a "solution", but it in no way starts a productive conversation. This is nothing more than a useless political stunt and at worst an idiot/malicious legislator. Given that this is New York, I'd lean towards malicious.
One normally researches a topic to become at least somewhat knowledgeable to put forth a somewhat reasonable solution to the identified problem. There is zero nuance in this bill. It essentially requires a background check for every 3d printer. I would find it hard to believe you could find a 3d printer that was not capable of printing a firearm component. I'm sure you could find a way to include those pens.
> sorta like how you'd write a draft essay for a college class and then go back for a second and third pass before submitting it.
I would fail a middle schooler for purposing this as a solution. A bill as simple as this one is simply zero effort or intentionally malicious.
> When you see a "ready to go bill," it's either been through a dozen-step process in this legislative session OR it's been brought up in a dozen different sessions and been improved along the way as legislators have to re-introduce all the bills they are sponsoring in each legislative session.
Any bill I've seen introduced that isn't simply looking for a participation trophy looks like there was some thought into it. This was zero thought or intentionally malicious.
> The legislator is not an expert in the issue, and I doubt she's claiming she is. She's proposing the broad strokes of a solution to a problem she sees. The point is not to pass the bill in its current form – it's to figure out how to solve the problem, using this general idea as the starting point.
Broad strokes? This is not broad strokes. Broad strokes might be only requiring it for metal 3d printers. Or have something to do with printing volume. This is about as full on nuclear as you can get without banning them. Maybe they should talk to some experts beforehand? This solution is basically the same as putting forth that everyone should stop breathing as a solution to global warming. Sure it is a "solution", but it in no way starts a productive conversation. This is nothing more than a useless political stunt and at worst an idiot/malicious legislator. Given that this is New York, I'd lean towards malicious.
As I understand it manufacturing your own firearms is explicitly legal in the US. This isn't a loophole, it is another politician who simply wants to disarm the working class.
>As I understand it manufacturing your own firearms is explicitly legal in the US.
In the US, yes. But maybe not in NY.
In the US, yes. But maybe not in NY.
There are a lot of firearms laws in NY on paper.
To me, it seems rediculous to claim that the right to bear arms somehow excludes building one for personal use.
To me, it seems rediculous to claim that the right to bear arms somehow excludes building one for personal use.
The legislator doesnt realize 3d printer parts can be purchased and built. It is a CNC machine and this is America, home of more firearms owned by citizens than anywhere.
> it's to figure out how to solve the problem
Using this excuse for people who want to actively take your civil rights away is absurd. It's so tiring to argue against authoritarianism apologia time and time again.
>The legislator is not an expert in the issue
They have an entire team who can find experts on the issue. Yet they choose not to and go out with this haphazard blunderbuss this is.
So yes, treating the legislator like an idiot is exactly the right thing to do.
Using this excuse for people who want to actively take your civil rights away is absurd. It's so tiring to argue against authoritarianism apologia time and time again.
>The legislator is not an expert in the issue
They have an entire team who can find experts on the issue. Yet they choose not to and go out with this haphazard blunderbuss this is.
So yes, treating the legislator like an idiot is exactly the right thing to do.
If I was somehow tasked to come up with the worst imaginable way to generate laws which impact the day-to-day lives and liberties of an entire civilization, I quite sincerely doubt whether I could do much better than this.
I also think the law is bad.
I do want to point out that if you want to make durable parts with a 3D printer, the easiest thing to do would be to create the part with the printer, then use it to form a mold for casting the part out of metal. Then case harden. That's the cheap and fairly easy way. I just want to point that out because I think that use case of 3D printers gets overlooked. Or you buy a fairly expensive lathe/mill.
I do want to point out that if you want to make durable parts with a 3D printer, the easiest thing to do would be to create the part with the printer, then use it to form a mold for casting the part out of metal. Then case harden. That's the cheap and fairly easy way. I just want to point that out because I think that use case of 3D printers gets overlooked. Or you buy a fairly expensive lathe/mill.
My first thought was, will this apply to basically all machinery? Because for about $2000 I can buy a mill kit that I can manufactur a complete firearm on.
> the easiest thing to do would be to create the part with the printer, then use it to form a mold for casting the part out of metal
This is definitely not true for parts that need to be closely toleranced. Lost-PLA casting, DIY mold-making, etc are manufacturing processes not world-renowned for their ability to keep things precise.
This is definitely not true for parts that need to be closely toleranced. Lost-PLA casting, DIY mold-making, etc are manufacturing processes not world-renowned for their ability to keep things precise.
Yeah, most parts in simple designs do not need to be super precise. Some hand fitting might be necessary.
This is in the context of firearms, which are presumably modern repeating firearms, where they will cease to function if the tolerances are wrong.
You can get remarkably far with pretty crude tolerances, especially with lower pressure, pistol rounds. For example a direct-blowback, open-bolt submachine guns akin to what was used in WW2 can be pretty easily designed and built by anybody with a passable understanding of mechanics.
Again, we're talking about casting. Take a look at an Owen or a Sten and get back to me on what parts you think can be plausibly lost-PLA casted.
I should buy a 3D printer. At university I knew a man who said any time the government wanted to make something illegal to buy he felt a compulsion to buy it. I think I see what he means now.
It's definitely not a bad time to join 3d printing industry. Much more mature than what it was even 5+ yrs ago
What’s a good use for them? I have been on the cusp of buying or building one for many years, but outside of the occasional desire to 3D print a random replacement or enhancement part for something, such as a new back for my minidisc player, which I can do via mail order 3D printing, all the examples at say Microcenter are just admittedly neat-looking but ultimately useless chintzy plastic goods.
Gridfinity is an awesome organizational system you can print yourself, customized to your needs. I’ve also printed watch charging stands, a bottle drying stand, games, and gifts for other people. Will you save money? Probably not, but it’s fun.
Many public libraries have 3d printers these days. I don't see the appeal of owning one unless you're a serious hobbyist or cosplayer.
I had kinda the same feeling before I got my first 3d printer too.
The first real thing I printed was a case for holding camera batteries to prevent them from just rolling around in my luggage. It was in PETG and it felt super high quality, and not chintzy as all.
I'm currently holding a 3NM torque wrench, where the handle and torque mechanism was 3d printed, and it feels like something you want to use on a day to day basis. It's smooth and feels good in the hand.
The chintzy probably comes from low density printing/ low quality materials. I've printed out parts that were carbon fiber infused PLA and PETG and just look and feel absolutely awesome.
The first real thing I printed was a case for holding camera batteries to prevent them from just rolling around in my luggage. It was in PETG and it felt super high quality, and not chintzy as all.
I'm currently holding a 3NM torque wrench, where the handle and torque mechanism was 3d printed, and it feels like something you want to use on a day to day basis. It's smooth and feels good in the hand.
The chintzy probably comes from low density printing/ low quality materials. I've printed out parts that were carbon fiber infused PLA and PETG and just look and feel absolutely awesome.
Board game organizers are my source of interest. Kickstarter-type games, especially, often need more efficient organizers than the designers included in the box. And it’s very difficult (in my experience) to get useful off-the-shelf organizers, particularly if you want everything to fit snugly in the original box.
How useful a 3D printer is depends entirely on how you use it. My recent projects were:
* Some prototype compressor wheels and housings for an RC vehicle
* Wargaming terrain
* A small enclosure for an oddly shaped LCD panel that I'm using as a dash in my racing sim rig
* A micro ATX PC case
They're useful if you've got complimentary hobbies, but if your reaction to a 3D printer is "I'd probably never use that", you're probably right. If you're not planning on designing your own parts, then mail order is fine for occasional use.
* Some prototype compressor wheels and housings for an RC vehicle
* Wargaming terrain
* A small enclosure for an oddly shaped LCD panel that I'm using as a dash in my racing sim rig
* A micro ATX PC case
They're useful if you've got complimentary hobbies, but if your reaction to a 3D printer is "I'd probably never use that", you're probably right. If you're not planning on designing your own parts, then mail order is fine for occasional use.
Lots of things! See the functional print subreddit: https://old.reddit.com/r/functionalprint
(There is a new community on lemmy or madtadon, I'm sure its nicer but I don't remember the address)
(There is a new community on lemmy or madtadon, I'm sure its nicer but I don't remember the address)
Mail order 3D printing is just extremely expensive.
Honestly, I’ve enjoyed designing custom pieces for board games.
Honestly, I’ve enjoyed designing custom pieces for board games.
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Emitting microplastic dust into your home.
What is a good 3D printer?
I've had a Prusa Mk3s+ for four years. I bought the kit and assembled it. The only problem it's ever had was the result of a mistake I made during assembly, which I was able to correct. Sometimes I use it a whole bunch for a project and it gives me no trouble. Sometimes it sits untouched for six months. The moment I need it, it works.
I did modify a Ikea LACK table to sit it on to reduce vibrations. I also modified it by removing the power supply where it typically sits and placing it beneath the table. I did this because I cover my printer with a pop-up photo tent to keep heat in and enable printing in ABS. It also keeps dust from collecting on my printer.
I did modify a Ikea LACK table to sit it on to reduce vibrations. I also modified it by removing the power supply where it typically sits and placing it beneath the table. I did this because I cover my printer with a pop-up photo tent to keep heat in and enable printing in ABS. It also keeps dust from collecting on my printer.
I have an Elegoo Neptune 2 because it's basically the cheapest decent printer you can get. Main complaints are lack of auto bed leveling, noise, and lack of direct drive filament feeder. Overall I have gotten quite a lot of value from it though. Printed tons of 40k figurines as well as functional stuff, including some stuff like handles and brackets I modeled myself.
Depends on what you want to do with it. For small hobby projects, I like my Ender 3 Pro. There are some better ones with more features, but this one is cheap.
Honestly, it depends on your budget and the features you want. My main workhorse right now is a Sovol SV06, one of the "it girl" printers of 2022. I own the Sovol, an Ender 3 v2, a Mingda Magician X and an AnyCubic Kobra Go. All of these printers work for me now, but that's because I've suffered the frustrating learning curve of 3D printers. For a newer 3D printing hobbyist I would latch onto a brand that offers a 90% or 100% assembled printer -- with a large community for aftermarket add-on buys or prints. Ender, Sovol, AnyCubic, Elegoo -- just look for the brands with massive communities. They tend to keep manufacturers accountable and creative.
So many companies are putting out "out of the box" wonder printers right now that I would just engage in a few weeks of YouTube watching. A printer release could come out tomorrow that completely changes the value proposition of whatever you were looking at. Funny enough, size matters -- if you want to print helmets in one piece, you have to look at larger printers.
So many companies are putting out "out of the box" wonder printers right now that I would just engage in a few weeks of YouTube watching. A printer release could come out tomorrow that completely changes the value proposition of whatever you were looking at. Funny enough, size matters -- if you want to print helmets in one piece, you have to look at larger printers.
One that doesn't create millions of bits of floating microplastics in your home and lungs.
You've mentioned this a couple times. I don't have an opinion on the subject, and a random comment doesn't really tell me anything. It would be good to link some solid studies so people can understand the risks. If you don't have those, maybe reconsider your point.
I don't feel the need to do so at this point, but I do feel the moral imperative to spread the alarm on a disastrous industrial process (when precautions are not taken) that many in the maker movement are woefully unaware of, the same way I would if I suddenly became aware of the dangers of asbestos and was on my way to work when I overheard a conversation among hobbyists about spraying asbestos foam around in their bedrooms without much knowledge of it.
Raise the alarm with convincing evidence. Nobody is going to do anything if you don't bring evidence to the table (as you say, makers are woefully unaware of this). If you're just trolling, I highly recommend this defcon talk on how to do it better: https://youtube.com/watch?v=vcAHbvTlpKA
Be aware that many or most 3D printers create an incredible amount of plastic dust and microdust that floats in the air, pollutes your home, gets in your lungs, etc.
If you've ever given a shit about microplastics, do your research when shopping for 3D printers. And if you don't care about the environment but do care about your health, take precautions as far as PPE/where you use the machine.
If you've ever given a shit about microplastics, do your research when shopping for 3D printers. And if you don't care about the environment but do care about your health, take precautions as far as PPE/where you use the machine.
That’s the vestigial spirit of your American heritage right there. Embrace it. Not American? Either way, I say embrace it.
Honestly I did the same thing with guns. All that propaganda about obama coming to take our guns had me hook, line, and sinker.
Think how foolish you'd feel if a Beto O'Rourke got elected and then actually did what he said he'd do.
I mean, if they tell you what they're planning to do (and they usually do), and you don't believe them...
I mean, if they tell you what they're planning to do (and they usually do), and you don't believe them...
I would feel a little foolish. But I really don't see the government doing a "give us your guns (property) or else." Every time I get a call from the NRA to donate because they're coming for my guns. I ask them jokingly "If they will give them up if the government comes knocking?" Then I jokingly tell them that I'm not concerned and The government doesn't want that smoke.
It’s definitely starting to look like some of the gun rights groups are just an advertising arm of the gun manufacturers.
That’s a bit like calling the (old school) ACLU an advertising arm of the book printers.
This is an interesting admission to me... Does recognizing it as propaganda not take away some of the power it has over you?
I can admit it only because I'm not right-wing at all. But I can see how I was convinced.
>Does recognizing it as propaganda not take away some of the power it has over you?
I would say now it does. I didn't recognize it as propaganda at the time. The way it was presented "seemed" logical at the time. There are large organized groups that are sort of trying to enact common sense gun laws and sometimes they suggest things that go a little to far but really don't seem to address the issue of criminals using guns. At the time I was seeing that and recognizing that as a threat.
I suppose I recognize it for what it is now 10 years later after my initial gun fever wore off. I'm a little smarter to advertising tactics now and much more conscious about my money. and then I saw how easily it was to dupe me, I sort of understand why so many people who aren't extreme right-wing can watch something like Fox and be "converted".
But I also can watch my local fox news and see how they're are running stories that are trying to convince the viewers that the city is crumbling, schools are shit, and crime is out of control.
>Does recognizing it as propaganda not take away some of the power it has over you?
I would say now it does. I didn't recognize it as propaganda at the time. The way it was presented "seemed" logical at the time. There are large organized groups that are sort of trying to enact common sense gun laws and sometimes they suggest things that go a little to far but really don't seem to address the issue of criminals using guns. At the time I was seeing that and recognizing that as a threat.
I suppose I recognize it for what it is now 10 years later after my initial gun fever wore off. I'm a little smarter to advertising tactics now and much more conscious about my money. and then I saw how easily it was to dupe me, I sort of understand why so many people who aren't extreme right-wing can watch something like Fox and be "converted".
But I also can watch my local fox news and see how they're are running stories that are trying to convince the viewers that the city is crumbling, schools are shit, and crime is out of control.
> common sense
What is "common sense?"
Why is it a foregone conclusion that whatever proposal is automatically "common sense?"
What is "common sense?"
Why is it a foregone conclusion that whatever proposal is automatically "common sense?"
In some cases, not all, The bills don't seem to address the crux of the issues. Instead, like most politicians do, they try for legislation that sounds good but don't address the problem of people already with guns and criminal enterprises that are making them[1] and selling them.
For instance, in my state, they changed the laws of where you can and can't carry. It's now more illegal to carry a gun on, say, for instance, school property. But it was already illegal. If our goal is to prevent gun deaths. This law does not prevent that from happening.
[1]https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/ghost...
For instance, in my state, they changed the laws of where you can and can't carry. It's now more illegal to carry a gun on, say, for instance, school property. But it was already illegal. If our goal is to prevent gun deaths. This law does not prevent that from happening.
[1]https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/ghost...
Thanks for your very reasonable response :) I think recognizing these things - and more importantly how they affect us - is really important, so good for you
Gun sales spike whenever a anti-gun-rights politician wins an election it's well documented.
Also whenever there is a mass shooting
Obama was the gun industries biggest salesman.
What next, they'll ban transporting 3D printers across state borders and have the cops go around knocking down doors hunting for unlicensed 3D printers? Otherwise people would just buy them interstate.
Ban stepper motors as the precursor to 3d printers. Shit, ban copper wire.
Wait until they find out about machine shops that can make anything out of metal!
What does the ATF call that in the gun world? “Constructive possession”? You had the parts to make one, same as owning one! Felony charges.
And all the open-source firmware and hardware out there for making your own 3D printer...
Don't worry, the New Feudalists are working on this.
You can actually go all the way to the prohibition era and create the printer yourself, the designs are free.
Ghost printers? Time for more legislation!
Clearly any part that can be used in the construction of a 3d printer will need to be fingerprinted as well.
Is there any support for this bill or is it just a random NY legislator proposing a bill with no actual support or plan for getting it passed? EDIT: It looks like this bill is in committee and only has one sponsor, so I am thinking no, but one never knows.
Someone has to dip their toe in to see how people react. That no big names are behind it doesn't mean they aren't "behind" it.
The people who proposed this need to be put on display tied upside down somewhere so that the message is clear.
If someone tells you "I want to take a crap on your head", the apropriate response is not saying NO, it's making sure they never ask that question again.
The people who proposed this need to be put on display tied upside down somewhere so that the message is clear.
If someone tells you "I want to take a crap on your head", the apropriate response is not saying NO, it's making sure they never ask that question again.
The proposal is for 3D printers that are capable of printing a firearm, or firearm component.
Which is actually really broad. From what I can find, NY law doesn't define "firearm component", but it does define "major firearm component" to include "barrel, slide, cylinder, frame or receiver". And I imagine pretty much any decent 3d printer can print a receiver for a gun designed to be 3d printed...
Which is actually really broad. From what I can find, NY law doesn't define "firearm component", but it does define "major firearm component" to include "barrel, slide, cylinder, frame or receiver". And I imagine pretty much any decent 3d printer can print a receiver for a gun designed to be 3d printed...
At that point it seems simpler to turn a couple of sticks and some string into a bow and arrow.
Just get a brick....too late, now every brick needs to be barcoded with the biometric details of the purchaser.
Such a law makes sense in countries like the UK, where it is extremely hard to get a gun as a normal civilian. The guns produced by 3D printer can be fired a limited number of time, and a long car drive allows you to buy a gun legally in the US.
Such a law makes sense in countries like the UK, where it is extremely hard to get a gun as a normal civilian. The guns produced by 3D printer can be fired a limited number of time, and a long car drive allows you to buy a gun legally in the US.
Could a 3D printed firearm potentially allow the user to utilize the element of surprise to obtain an OEM firearm?
How many shots do you need for this use case?
How many shots do you need for this use case?
No, I'm just going to go down to Lowes and buy a couple pieces of pipe, a nail, and then go find some shotgun shells.
It's time that New York bans hardware stores, obviously.
It's time that New York bans hardware stores, obviously.
I was curious what NY does for purchasing a firearm and found this article[0] which says:
> New York is now a point of contact state, meaning the New York State Police NICS Unit will process National Instant Criminal Background Checks (NICS) when a customer tries to purchase a firearm. NYSP NICS will contact the FBI to determine if the buyer qualifies to purchase the gun.
So it's good to see that they're not imposing something on purchasing a 3D printer that isn't also done for what they're trying to control. But then the article goes on to say:
> For ammunition, the division of the state police will check a state record system to decide if a customer is permitted to purchase ammunition. This state background check is a new system.
Previously, there was no ammunition background check and gun shops submit requests directly to FBI NICS without passing through the state.
> “They’re putting excess burden on systems that are already working,” Jeff Benty, CEO of Just Holster It Firearms and Training Center in Elma told News 4. “That communication [between the shop and FBI] is severed off and we have to pass through the state, so basically the state has used their government authority to inject themselves in the middle and now charge customers a toll fee.”
> Customers have to pay $9 per firearm background check and $2.50 per ammunition background check. The state says the money collected will pay for the new background check system.
Seems like the state could be rent-seeking. I sure hope the requests aren't merely forwarded to the FBI every time someone buys a 3D printer (or refill filament).
[0] https://www.wivb.com/news/it-was-really-inconvenient-new-yor...
> New York is now a point of contact state, meaning the New York State Police NICS Unit will process National Instant Criminal Background Checks (NICS) when a customer tries to purchase a firearm. NYSP NICS will contact the FBI to determine if the buyer qualifies to purchase the gun.
So it's good to see that they're not imposing something on purchasing a 3D printer that isn't also done for what they're trying to control. But then the article goes on to say:
> For ammunition, the division of the state police will check a state record system to decide if a customer is permitted to purchase ammunition. This state background check is a new system.
Previously, there was no ammunition background check and gun shops submit requests directly to FBI NICS without passing through the state.
> “They’re putting excess burden on systems that are already working,” Jeff Benty, CEO of Just Holster It Firearms and Training Center in Elma told News 4. “That communication [between the shop and FBI] is severed off and we have to pass through the state, so basically the state has used their government authority to inject themselves in the middle and now charge customers a toll fee.”
> Customers have to pay $9 per firearm background check and $2.50 per ammunition background check. The state says the money collected will pay for the new background check system.
Seems like the state could be rent-seeking. I sure hope the requests aren't merely forwarded to the FBI every time someone buys a 3D printer (or refill filament).
[0] https://www.wivb.com/news/it-was-really-inconvenient-new-yor...
It's not "rent seeking" - the state doesn't need $9.. it's a poll tax designed to further inconvenience one from exercising their rights.
Virtually any 3D printer that isn't bottom-barrel Amazon crap can print off a pistol lower. So the same item that one can buy in 49 other states at Micro Center or via Amazon now requires the same process as acquiring a firearm -- another thing that New York state is loathe about.
No matter what you think about the potential of 3D printers, just consider that at any given time there are folds more people printing the Rocktopus or hose couplers than there are firearms.
No matter what you think about the potential of 3D printers, just consider that at any given time there are folds more people printing the Rocktopus or hose couplers than there are firearms.
Please, dear God, don't anyone tell them about sand-casting...
Explanation for non-mechs: Make a shape out of wood with a chisel, push it into sand to make a void, melt Alu in a glorified BBQ, pour into sand to make a perfect replica of the wooden template. You can turn out 100 high quality "mechanical parts" in alloyed metal in the same time it takes to 3D print one in PLA.
Explanation for non-mechs: Make a shape out of wood with a chisel, push it into sand to make a void, melt Alu in a glorified BBQ, pour into sand to make a perfect replica of the wooden template. You can turn out 100 high quality "mechanical parts" in alloyed metal in the same time it takes to 3D print one in PLA.
Again with the casting in this thread. What parts are you imagining you can make this way? Modern small arms generally require quite good tolerances. If you aren't going for that (which you clearly aren't because you chose casting lol), just buy a pipe and move on.
Unfortunately your knowledge of industrial manufacturing processes might not be as strong as you think it is. The immediate evidence to consider is that people cast their own Warhammer desktop war-gaming miniatures at home: The feature accuracy of these is much higher than the milling accuracy of cheap ARmalite knock-offs.
You don't have to buy a 3D printer, you can build one using off-the-shelf components and printed parts.
The VORON printers for example, and they're beastly printers. They should appeal to the HN audience as they're completely open source and moddable.
The VORON printers for example, and they're beastly printers. They should appeal to the HN audience as they're completely open source and moddable.
And not to mention absolutely insane in terms of price to performance. Used Voron kit builds aren't that hard to find stateside either.
What makes a 3D printer different from a lathe or a CNC?
ITAR is all over the lathe/CNC world - I'm an industrial/controls engineer, and have to do compliance reviews, "production of arms" forms, and "destination control statements" for the machines we build. The main difference is that cheap 3D printers are $200 and can be carried to your bedroom, instead of $200k+, requiring riggers and 3-phase power.
Yes, you can buy old Bridgeports and Pacemakers on Craigslist, or cheap mini-mills and mini-lathes at Harbor Freight, and run them in your garage, and yes, those would be infinitely more valuable in the making of a firearm. No, this law won't prevent someone clever and determined from building a 3D printer with some aluminum scraps, an Arduino, and a few steppers. Similarly, those ITAR PoA forms don't prevent me from buying some servos and bearings from AliExpress, bolting some steel together, and downloading LinuxCNC to make a 5-axis machine that ITAR would say could be used to enable nuclear proliferation. Many in the industry [1] agree that all these restrictions are ineffective and harmful.
The good news for this law is that while a nation state can probably devote a couple engineers and dismantle some obsolete equipment to build a custom 5-axis mill, a New York gangster is more likely to be deterred by this obstacle. But whether these restrictions are completely ineffective political posturing, an opportunity to add a charge to a separate conviction, or an obstacle in front of would-be criminals that is actually effective at reducing crime, is a social question, and unfortunately answers probably depend more on your political preferences than on anything measurable.
[1] https://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/documents/technology-evalu...
Yes, you can buy old Bridgeports and Pacemakers on Craigslist, or cheap mini-mills and mini-lathes at Harbor Freight, and run them in your garage, and yes, those would be infinitely more valuable in the making of a firearm. No, this law won't prevent someone clever and determined from building a 3D printer with some aluminum scraps, an Arduino, and a few steppers. Similarly, those ITAR PoA forms don't prevent me from buying some servos and bearings from AliExpress, bolting some steel together, and downloading LinuxCNC to make a 5-axis machine that ITAR would say could be used to enable nuclear proliferation. Many in the industry [1] agree that all these restrictions are ineffective and harmful.
The good news for this law is that while a nation state can probably devote a couple engineers and dismantle some obsolete equipment to build a custom 5-axis mill, a New York gangster is more likely to be deterred by this obstacle. But whether these restrictions are completely ineffective political posturing, an opportunity to add a charge to a separate conviction, or an obstacle in front of would-be criminals that is actually effective at reducing crime, is a social question, and unfortunately answers probably depend more on your political preferences than on anything measurable.
[1] https://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/documents/technology-evalu...
I think the "good news" for this law (not the is that those "New York gangsters" are more likely people who instead of making flimsy homemade firearms, might've otherwise been forced to buy random part X at price Y from company Z, the only people who ever manufactured and sold the part you need, don't do it anymore, have no interest in doing it anymore, and so costs exorbitant fees as they offload the remaining inventory, if they have any at all.
I just don't really see another really good reason for well paid people to be spending their time making a fuss about things that practically don't happen, especially compared to the ease of procuring a "real" firearm.
However it is seemingly pretty common for lobbyists to weaken consumer's positions even if it doesn't bring a tangible, concrete benefit, and seems merely...vindictive/petty.
I just don't really see another really good reason for well paid people to be spending their time making a fuss about things that practically don't happen, especially compared to the ease of procuring a "real" firearm.
However it is seemingly pretty common for lobbyists to weaken consumer's positions even if it doesn't bring a tangible, concrete benefit, and seems merely...vindictive/petty.
Who needs a 200k+ device when there's things like ghostgunner.net, which can mill a bunch of lowers all for less than 3k?
> No, this law won't prevent someone clever and determined from building a 3D printer with some aluminum scraps, an Arduino, and a few steppers.
Or driving to NJ or PA and buying one there.
Or driving to NJ or PA and buying one there.
Good point, because without CNC, with 3d printers solely you couldn't do a firearm that do more of 1 shot. CNC are more "dangerous" for firearm production. This bill is a show of ignorance of the legislators.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FGC-9
Designed with the explicit intent of containing no parts that are regulated as firearm components in Europe. Including the barrel, which is manufactured using 3D printed jigs and a bench top power supply.
These are in active use right now, most notably by anti-junta rebels in Myanmar, who have literally been running print farms in the jungle to produce them.
Designed with the explicit intent of containing no parts that are regulated as firearm components in Europe. Including the barrel, which is manufactured using 3D printed jigs and a bench top power supply.
These are in active use right now, most notably by anti-junta rebels in Myanmar, who have literally been running print farms in the jungle to produce them.
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That's not true, there are ways to make pressure-bearing parts such as barrels without machining tools.
News headlines about "3D-printed guns".
But what about news headlines about "CNC milled guns"? ;-)
According to my casual Googling, metal lathes start out a lot more expensive than 3d printers. Wood lathes and CNC machines are surprisingly affordable though. So this seems like a good question.
You can buy (and indeed I bought), cheap 2nd hand lathes or milling machines for 800 bucks, which I wouldn't consider "a lot more expensive".
Not only that, but if you consider a cheap second hand lathe mostly as a source of parts and rebuild the frame out of something like synthetic granite (which is mostly a casting job) then it'll probably have much better rigidity than anything you can buy at a similar price.
Civil rights shouldn't generally hinge on affordability.
Countdown to people selling 80% 3d printer kits.
But seriously though, I'd hope this either doesn't pass or has a clear carve-out for reprap people.
But seriously though, I'd hope this either doesn't pass or has a clear carve-out for reprap people.
Wait till they find out that you can make a 3d printer quite easily and that many 3d printers are open source.
Are there any documented cases of people actually committing crimes with a 3D printed firearm?
This is almost certainly a reaction to the "Glock auto switch"[0].
They are used to convert semi-automatic Glock handguns to fully automatic (which is illegal without a tax stamp).
They are very popular with criminals (typically gangs) in the US[1].
[0] - https://www.yeggi.com/q/glock+auto+switch/
[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glock_switch
They are used to convert semi-automatic Glock handguns to fully automatic (which is illegal without a tax stamp).
They are very popular with criminals (typically gangs) in the US[1].
[0] - https://www.yeggi.com/q/glock+auto+switch/
[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glock_switch
> which is illegal without a tax stamp
Or a Type 7 FFL w/ Class 3 SOT. Stamps are not obtainable post-1986, resulting in a de facto ban.
Or a Type 7 FFL w/ Class 3 SOT. Stamps are not obtainable post-1986, resulting in a de facto ban.
Committing a crime, such as possessing a 3D printed firearm?
Only illegal in certain states, not federally
It was federally illegal until 2013 if it's wasn't able to be detected by a metal detector:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undetectable_Firearms_Act
Some folks have tried to reintroduce it again. It's one of the few gun laws that even the NRA approved of.
Some folks have tried to reintroduce it again. It's one of the few gun laws that even the NRA approved of.
..if you didn't include a piece of ferrous metal in the frame, which most folks specifically did to comply with that legislation.
Not to mention: a magazine and all ammunition is automatically detectable (visually and magnetically.)
Not to mention: a magazine and all ammunition is automatically detectable (visually and magnetically.)
AFAIK 3d printed guns aren't illegal as long as they're able to be detected by a metal detector, unless a state has passed a law that imposes an additional restriction.
That is not a crime AFAIK.
Should you 3d print an auto sear (a little bracket-looking thing) then you're in possession of a machine gun, which is illegal.
Why was this downvoted?
The federal laws do state that "possession of specific machine gun parts is considered possession of a machine gun"
Machine gun sears included. Also parts that convert a semi-automatic into a machine gun like a Lightening Link.
The federal laws do state that "possession of specific machine gun parts is considered possession of a machine gun"
Machine gun sears included. Also parts that convert a semi-automatic into a machine gun like a Lightening Link.
Because it's a non-sequitur.
Unregistered machine guns are illegal to possess regardless of how they were made.
3D printing an otherwise legal firearm is not illegal at the Federal level in the United States.
The exchange boils down to:
Comment: That isn't illegal.
Reply: well, if you do this other thing that's illegal, it is.
Unregistered machine guns are illegal to possess regardless of how they were made.
3D printing an otherwise legal firearm is not illegal at the Federal level in the United States.
The exchange boils down to:
Comment: That isn't illegal.
Reply: well, if you do this other thing that's illegal, it is.
Where is that law applied?
https://www.nycourts.gov/judges/cji/2-PenalLaw/265/265-01(9)...
https://legislation.nysenate.gov/pdf/bills/2021/S14A
https://legislation.nysenate.gov/pdf/bills/2021/S13A
https://www.supremecourt.gov/orders/courtorders/080823zr_dc8...
also - my bad formatting aside, I am NOT in favor of 3D printer registration or legislation in any way.
That will be silly, counterproductive and even less impactful than having to show my license and sign an affidavit just to buy properly working cold meds in a gorram grocery store.
That will be silly, counterproductive and even less impactful than having to show my license and sign an affidavit just to buy properly working cold meds in a gorram grocery store.
i'm not sure if it was 3d printed but shinzo abe was assassinated with a "homemade firearm". it's a bullshit law either way though.
Not 3D printed. 2 metal barrels and some wood from a hardware store. I guess those should be "firearm parts" in New York
It's illegal to kill people in japan.
Ghost gun use in U.S. crimes has risen more than 1,000% since 2017, federal report says:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ghost-gun-use-crimes-1000-perce...
Number of 3D-printed ghost guns soaring in New York:
https://abc7ny.com/nyc-ghost-guns-3d-printed-printer/1334500...
3D Printed Gun Arrests Tripled in Less Than Two Years – 3DPrint.com Investigates:
https://3dprint.com/291684/3d-printed-gun-arrests-tripled-in...
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ghost-gun-use-crimes-1000-perce...
Number of 3D-printed ghost guns soaring in New York:
https://abc7ny.com/nyc-ghost-guns-3d-printed-printer/1334500...
3D Printed Gun Arrests Tripled in Less Than Two Years – 3DPrint.com Investigates:
https://3dprint.com/291684/3d-printed-gun-arrests-tripled-in...
A 3D printed gun can be a ghost gun, but a ghost gun is not inherently 3D printed (99%+ aren't)
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That does not count. Those are all from parts kits. 3D printing of firearms outside of superficial accessories is a fraction of a fraction. And newsflash to the world -- Americans have been making "ghost guns" for hundreds of years.
Hardly the worth the attention of Law Enforcement. Maybe focus on real crime and not propaganda tuned to scare the average burbanite.
Those are all 80% polymers.
Ghost Gun != 3D printed firearm
Ghost Gun != 3D printed firearm
I grew up in NY and it's such an overbearing and oppressive state government.
[deleted]
Nope. But NY can fuck over its own citizens until the Decision Class and Elites Leave. It may take a few more decades or years for them to sink into their own version of Detroit circa the 60's. But it is already happening across once large and prosperous cities.
PS, an un-friendly jab: LOL; voting blue no matter who sure is working.
PS, an un-friendly jab: LOL; voting blue no matter who sure is working.
It would require fingerprinting for purchases of "certain 3D printers". What does that even mean? I guess the existing law defined what "firearm" means in the context of that law, but if I was a retailer selling 3D printers, I would have some serious questions about it.
My 5-year-old entry level 3D printer could probably print parts of a firearm, but those parts would probably not be very durable to a point they would be completely unusable. Would selling that printer be subject to this law? Who the f** knows. I don't think the author of the bill knows either.
Maybe someone could ask. She's Jenifer Rajkumar: https://nyassembly.gov/mem/Jenifer-Rajkumar
This bill is listed on her list of sponsored bills: https://nyassembly.gov/mem/Jenifer-Rajkumar/sponsor/