The Placeholder Girlfriend(parhelia.conorbarnes.com)
parhelia.conorbarnes.com
The Placeholder Girlfriend
https://parhelia.conorbarnes.com/p/the-placeholder-girlfriend
158 comments
Can you say more about why you liked the ending, to someone who doesn't get it? It doesn't seem like a happy ending to me. She's riding off into the sunset, happy that she became the better person and didn't humiliate her girlfriend. But she doesn't seem to realize that the actions she _did_ take throughout the story arguably made her the "evil girlfriend" the entire time, and there isn't any indication that has changed by the end of the story.
What did the author do that was evil? I don't see anything in the story that makes the author evil. She improved herself and after she graduated from placeholder status, she turns the tables.
When she had sex with someone else, I don't really think it was cheating since their relationship was labeled "Temporary"
When she had sex with someone else, I don't really think it was cheating since their relationship was labeled "Temporary"
It's not just the sex with someone else. The main character is lying to their girlfriend the entire time, avoiding the girlfriend to prepare in secret, trying to "get" her before she herself gets "got." But she didn't even know for sure the "got" was going to come. Yes, she saw the "temporary" label, but every relationship starts out temporary. Sometimes people date other people knowing ahead of time that it won't last forever. Sometimes people express that fact in writing (private diary, spreadsheet, whatever). That doesn't excuse this behavior. I'm curious, if cheating in this kind of relationship is fine, when do you think it becomes unacceptable?
> But she didn't even know for sure the "got" was going to come. Yes, she saw the "temporary" label, but every relationship starts out temporary. Sometimes people date other people knowing ahead of time that it won't last forever. Sometimes people express that fact in writing (private diary, spreadsheet, whatever). That doesn't excuse this behavior.
I'm not completely convinced. I don't agree with "every relationship starts out temporary"; to me a relationship should be part of a good-faith effort towards a permanent relationship unless agreed otherwise. (And if you take the position that the girlfriend didn't agree to a relationship at all, then by the same token she can't complain about it being nonexclusive). If you know someone's maintaining a relationship with you under deeply false pretenses (explicitly or implicitly), then I don't think you owe them or your relationship any loyalty.
I'm not completely convinced. I don't agree with "every relationship starts out temporary"; to me a relationship should be part of a good-faith effort towards a permanent relationship unless agreed otherwise. (And if you take the position that the girlfriend didn't agree to a relationship at all, then by the same token she can't complain about it being nonexclusive). If you know someone's maintaining a relationship with you under deeply false pretenses (explicitly or implicitly), then I don't think you owe them or your relationship any loyalty.
I don't really view it as a faithful romantic relationship, so I don't view it as cheating. One party considered it temporary while holding up a facade that they viewed it as legitimate.
Not the person you're replying to, but yes, I think that's right. But that's what's clever about the story.
I loved that part, such wry humor.
This is a great story. I think folks are misreading it as something to be taken literally or that we're supposed the condone the narrator's reaction.
I will say that I relate, because I once overreacted to a breakup going on a massive self-improvement binge. I have mixed feelings about that. On one hand, I don't think it came from a place of sound mental health and self-esteem. On the other, a lot of good did come out of it, and I eventually found intrinsic motivation, rather than evaluating myself by how I thought my ex would think about me.
I will say that I relate, because I once overreacted to a breakup going on a massive self-improvement binge. I have mixed feelings about that. On one hand, I don't think it came from a place of sound mental health and self-esteem. On the other, a lot of good did come out of it, and I eventually found intrinsic motivation, rather than evaluating myself by how I thought my ex would think about me.
A guy I know broke up and first got into a drinking binge. Then hated it and turned into a gym rat. He became proper swol, started reading and meditating.
When he bench pressed, his mantra was "Breakups build body builders".
When he bench pressed, his mantra was "Breakups build body builders".
> Your girlfriend should think of you as a ten in everything.
This seems like a pretty damaging belief to have about relationships. Better to have a significant other who is accepting of your imperfections.
This seems like a pretty damaging belief to have about relationships. Better to have a significant other who is accepting of your imperfections.
The whole point of this story is that the rating system is silly. The point above is immediately followed by "No. You aren’t even supposed to think these things." It's someone's confused thoughts in the middle of finding out their partner is rating them out of ten on everything, not an approval of that specific thought.
If anything that list was the best thing that could happen to her, or at least the most introspective.
Brother, the story is made up! Real people don't behave this way.
Maybe not this way exactly, but I have known people who have dramatically improved themselves after experiencing rejection.
you mean listing attributes about an undergrad, turning them into your assistant and leaving your computer open with your actively managed character stats sheet for them to find and spiral about, while pretending not to know?
or do you mean the undergrad spiraling?
or do you mean the undergrad spiraling?
I thought the narrator was also a grad student.
It's the rating part that is problematic. There's understanding your partners strengths and weaknesses, and straight up comparing them to other people.
I expect that my spouse of many years still compares me with other people. Humans are social creatures and are frequently comparing ourselves and our families to others. While too much can certainly be a recipe for unhappiness, I think that’s one of the primary ways that we learn and grow.
A spreadsheet may feel very shallow and icky, but we also are not privy to the girlfriend’s thoughts and motives in this story. It could just be a tool to help her process her feelings. We don’t know how much weight she assigns to a 2 in Wit. And most relationships start off as “temporary” status.
My spouse has kept a journal off and on over the years. While it may be a shock initially to read something unflattering about myself in there, it also wouldn’t be a deal breaker for me. And not that far removed from a spreadsheet in my opinion.
A spreadsheet may feel very shallow and icky, but we also are not privy to the girlfriend’s thoughts and motives in this story. It could just be a tool to help her process her feelings. We don’t know how much weight she assigns to a 2 in Wit. And most relationships start off as “temporary” status.
My spouse has kept a journal off and on over the years. While it may be a shock initially to read something unflattering about myself in there, it also wouldn’t be a deal breaker for me. And not that far removed from a spreadsheet in my opinion.
The things written and said in private are often more real than how that person acts to your face. If I found the same things, it'd call the entire relationship into question.
Maybe you're okay being led on or talked about but that's not universal. Plenty of human behavior is destructive, our social behavior is no exception.
Maybe you're okay being led on or talked about but that's not universal. Plenty of human behavior is destructive, our social behavior is no exception.
Measuring people against one another or comparing oneself to others is a large source of human suffering.
"Accepting imperfections": depends on what it is and if it's an intrinsic attribute or a habit. A good partner helps the other become better where possible.
"Accepting imperfections": depends on what it is and if it's an intrinsic attribute or a habit. A good partner helps the other become better where possible.
I think you misunderstand the intent of that statement then. That statement is a way to say your significant other should curve the scale so you're their 10, if they accept you as you are.
I think this is also unrealistic and potentially damaging to the relationship. I have some really bad behavior, I try to be better every day, but yeah I'm bad in some ways. My girlfriend knows this and she accepts but it'd be a lie to say my bad behavior doesn't bother her. And same for vice versa. No one is perfect, especially if you live with them every day in the same house.
That's more or less how I understood it, and I don't think it is a healthy thing to require of your partner. For one I don't think it is possible for someone to just override their feelings like that.
And anyway I want my partner to understand my strengths and weaknesses. And to help me improve myself where possible with encouragement and constructive criticism, or to offset my weaknesses with their strengths. And vice versa.
And anyway I want my partner to understand my strengths and weaknesses. And to help me improve myself where possible with encouragement and constructive criticism, or to offset my weaknesses with their strengths. And vice versa.
That's idealizing and it's not healthy for a long-term relationship. Sooner or later (probably sooner) one has to be faced with the fact that the human you are bonding with is, well, human. And as such - flawed in so many ways, as all humans are. If you can admit that, really be honest about it, and still value the relationship and your partner, because there are so many things beyond the flaws that make it work - then it has a future. If it's just blind infatuation that ignores the reality - it's a fling, and the reality will assert itself soon. Nothing wrong with an occasional fling on certain stage of one's life, but it is good to make the distinction between the two.
That’s silly. My partner is a better cook than I am and a better driver. Any scale where I rate a 10 for either of those is dangerously disconnected from reality.
[deleted]
Did you read past the first 15%?
I did. If my comment makes you think that I missed something important in the story, I would appreciate it if you could elaborate further.
I know too many people that can't or won't listen to fair criticism. And even good listeners often fail to change even egregious interpersonal faults that affect them negatively. Very little of our society helps us become emotionally smarter - the most skilled I know seemed to learn everything almost in passing - perhaps some sort of emotional genius. We see glimpses of something similar on HN when a poor comment generates an honest critique yet the commenter keeps repeating the same fault (never learns). https://danluu.com/p95-skill/ seems relevant. Few people ever ask for criticism. Few people give honest criticism.
It always surprises me that we can sometimes recognize someone's personality within 5 minutes of meeting them. We see faults they perhaps can't see or maybe choose to live with (even faults that harm themselves or those near them). And I know a few superskilled that can immediately recognise well-hidden dangers of others.
I'm a middle aged analytical guy. So I've had decades of seeing how difficult it is for us all to acquire wisdom.
We want to be better, but we just don't seem to know how to do it. There's a self-harm industry around self-help books. Pop-psych. A whole dogma and industry around words like trauma, mindfulness. One of of the least insightful people I know is a psychologist. Some of the people I most admire have low-status jobs and little formal education.
I know people that try to make a list of all the attributes they require in a partner. I multiplied out the percentages for one friend, and their chances of finding someone that met all the easy requirements lead to a 1 in 10 billion chance of their perfect partner existing. Even after dropping many other constraints!
[edit] removed naive para where I took it as an article rather than a story. Great writing!
It always surprises me that we can sometimes recognize someone's personality within 5 minutes of meeting them. We see faults they perhaps can't see or maybe choose to live with (even faults that harm themselves or those near them). And I know a few superskilled that can immediately recognise well-hidden dangers of others.
I'm a middle aged analytical guy. So I've had decades of seeing how difficult it is for us all to acquire wisdom.
We want to be better, but we just don't seem to know how to do it. There's a self-harm industry around self-help books. Pop-psych. A whole dogma and industry around words like trauma, mindfulness. One of of the least insightful people I know is a psychologist. Some of the people I most admire have low-status jobs and little formal education.
I know people that try to make a list of all the attributes they require in a partner. I multiplied out the percentages for one friend, and their chances of finding someone that met all the easy requirements lead to a 1 in 10 billion chance of their perfect partner existing. Even after dropping many other constraints!
[edit] removed naive para where I took it as an article rather than a story. Great writing!
The story is made up. People in real life will not be that good at "curing" their emotional "flaws". This post is a little dangerous if people are reading it as a true story.
Doing it once does not make you a 10. You’d have to consistently do so without thinking. I don’t think the story is about that though.
Yeah, I think we're supposed to understand that. I personally found it funny that the narrator was reevaluating herself in such a superficial way.
> I multiplied out the percentages for one friend, and their chances of finding someone that met all the easy requirements lead to a 1 in 10 billion chance of their perfect partner existing.
You’ve got to be careful with this kind of naive statistical approach: many attributes are positively correlated.
That one in 10B chance is more like one in 10K or 100K because of this.
Moreover, people aren’t selecting partners from a random subset of the entire human population! They meet people in their own area, of their own age, etc…
Especially important is that people tend to meet partners at school or work, which very strongly selects for like-minded people.
Hence they don’t need to meet thousands or millions of potential partners: they’re meeting a good subset that is likely to be in that ideal group.
I mean, sure, if you had completely arbitrary and unrelated requirements and you were on a series of random blind dates selected via lottery from the global population, then things would look bleak. For most normal people wanting normal things, dating feels oddly lucky.
You’ve got to be careful with this kind of naive statistical approach: many attributes are positively correlated.
That one in 10B chance is more like one in 10K or 100K because of this.
Moreover, people aren’t selecting partners from a random subset of the entire human population! They meet people in their own area, of their own age, etc…
Especially important is that people tend to meet partners at school or work, which very strongly selects for like-minded people.
Hence they don’t need to meet thousands or millions of potential partners: they’re meeting a good subset that is likely to be in that ideal group.
I mean, sure, if you had completely arbitrary and unrelated requirements and you were on a series of random blind dates selected via lottery from the global population, then things would look bleak. For most normal people wanting normal things, dating feels oddly lucky.
> many attributes are positively correlated.
Most definitely. A relevant example here was income and good teeth.
Controlling for correlations is well beyond a back-of-the-envelope calculation. Even explaining correlations is university level stuff that is hard to explain.
I didn't add many other reasonable restrictions - in same city - finds them attractive - yadda yadda.
Their restrictions were unreasonable - the point of the exercise was to show just how unreasonable.
Fortunately it seems that when we meet someone we like, we turn out to be flexible and our restrictions are weak when faced with reality.
Most definitely. A relevant example here was income and good teeth.
Controlling for correlations is well beyond a back-of-the-envelope calculation. Even explaining correlations is university level stuff that is hard to explain.
I didn't add many other reasonable restrictions - in same city - finds them attractive - yadda yadda.
Their restrictions were unreasonable - the point of the exercise was to show just how unreasonable.
Fortunately it seems that when we meet someone we like, we turn out to be flexible and our restrictions are weak when faced with reality.
Fortunately it seems that when we meet someone we like, we turn out to be flexible and our restrictions are weak when faced with reality.
unless those restrictions prevent you from liking someone in the first place. i think young people do tend to make this mistake. i certainly did.
unless those restrictions prevent you from liking someone in the first place. i think young people do tend to make this mistake. i certainly did.
One trait I most admire in my dearest friends is acceptance of others without harmful judgement.
I am slowly learning! I think the trick is actually to see the less obvious value in others: e.g. smart but uneducated. The hard part is that it is most hard to recognise ability in others in domains where I am relatively stupid.
Also I tend to try to have the less judgemental self-select towards me by giving myself traits that judgy plastic types (oooo ironic) don't like.
I am slowly learning! I think the trick is actually to see the less obvious value in others: e.g. smart but uneducated. The hard part is that it is most hard to recognise ability in others in domains where I am relatively stupid.
Also I tend to try to have the less judgemental self-select towards me by giving myself traits that judgy plastic types (oooo ironic) don't like.
i am old enough that i managed to reduce judgement to one metric: is nice to other people. everything else is irrelevant when it comes to accepting someone as a friend.
for seeking a partner there are further questions related to compatibility of character and also goals, but that often is not what you look at when you are a teenager.
for seeking a partner there are further questions related to compatibility of character and also goals, but that often is not what you look at when you are a teenager.
Only one here finding that story super awkward, weird and full of clichēs?
The issue for me is that neither the detailed-spreadsheet girlfriend nor the levelling-up-all-the-skills girlfriend seem particularly believable characters. And the “I’m fake-sorry you’re such a pitiful person” is always cringy. Not to mention that “Roberta” almost did the same to “Alice” in return by pettily now also keeping her as a temporary girlfriend. Leaving her right away would have been the more appropriate and “levelled-up” choice.
The main character cheated on their girlfriend to prepare for revenge for... what crime exactly? A private note that she violated her girlfriend's privacy to read? Are we supposed to root for the main character because they stopped themselves short on getting revenge and wasn't as shitty of a person as they originally wanted to be? I get this is (likely) fiction, and with all art, not everyone is going to "get it." That said, I don't really get it. The main character is the worst person in the story, but they're also not a relatable flawed antihero you can root for. What did the author intend for us to think?
Yeah, the juxtaposition of those flaws with the “let me work hard to become a more admirable (admired?) person” with the “and I’m super skillful at those improvements” is weird.
Also details like cannot help but weep at the picture of a dead bird.
Also details like cannot help but weep at the picture of a dead bird.
I agree. Spreadsheet person is bizarre, but did nothing wrong (nor are they sad for having a spreadsheet, just unusual).
I also find the protagonists leveling up mockable (but not particularly funny). Personal growth in any characteristic takes time and major effort, but maybe that is part of the satire?
I find it hard to workout what is being played straight, and what is being mocked, tbh, I just don't care, or find it that funny.
The tropes seem strongly tied to the rationality and EA communities, so maybe if one is part of those communities there is more to the satire?
I also find the protagonists leveling up mockable (but not particularly funny). Personal growth in any characteristic takes time and major effort, but maybe that is part of the satire?
I find it hard to workout what is being played straight, and what is being mocked, tbh, I just don't care, or find it that funny.
The tropes seem strongly tied to the rationality and EA communities, so maybe if one is part of those communities there is more to the satire?
> The tropes seem strongly tied to the rationality and EA communities, so maybe if one is part of those communities there is more to the satire?
Rationality community is where you'd expect to find some spreadsheet people. So if this story is in any way related, it would be an unsuccessful attempt at mocking them.
Rationality community is where you'd expect to find some spreadsheet people. So if this story is in any way related, it would be an unsuccessful attempt at mocking them.
I believe we're supposed to empathize with the hurt the narrator feels but see that the narrator is a bit deranged. The in-story new girlfriend even sees this, and probably knows that the Alice and Roberta story is really about the narrator. It's basically an anti-hero story.
I can believe in the spreadsheet Alice. I mean I've met people that I wouldn't be surprised if I learned they did it. Males, but I don't see why a female can't be that too.
No you're not probably. But it's pretty standard "A is wronged undeservedly, then A becomes super cool and shows everybody and especially the wronger how it was wrong and then lives happily ever after". There's literally thousands of movies with this formula. Nothing wrong with it, it's a nice story formula. I personally like the ones where there's mafia and retired special ops guy and loud explosions more, but I wouldn't judge anybody who likes this way more. The only mistake would be to seek there something that isn't there.
No I was pretty repulsed by it. Goofy and unbelievable premise dressed up to sound profound. Also the prose was kinda whack.
Not my cup of tea.
Not my cup of tea.
It read like a bullied teenager’s fantasy scribblings.
it’s definitely got first draft vibes, but there is a great story in there.
I don't know, I found it a very enjoyable piece of satire.
I liked this, but you could tell a guy wrote it, the tip off was when the women (briefly) contemplates killing her girlfriend for for embarrassing her.
This comment bothers me, because here I was, reading this story, not generalizing about what gender does what, just seeing a character with flaws, and then your comment comes along and makes it not just about the gender of the character, but the gender of the author as well. Your comment alleges that it's obvious that a man wrote this character (this sounds sexist to me), because only a man can write a bad female character (this also sounds sexist to me), and the character is bad because no woman thinks like this (I don't know what generalizing something over three and a half billion people sounds to me).
I read the story as the protagonist being vulnerable, insecure, and a bit unhinged:
> For one horrible second I contemplated killing her but that was wildly out of proportion and then I tried to pretend that I had only wished she was dead and then I just tried to forget about it.
The other (female, no less) characters in the story seem to agree:
> “Revenge?” She looked surprised. “I get something like… I don’t know, but revenge is a leap.”
Whereas you explained those same character traits by the author being a man, and thus sexist, and not knowing how women think. That line of thinking already contains two invalid generalizations, ie "this isn't how women think" and "therefore a man wrote this, because only men don't know how women think".
I guess this bothers me because it takes something I read as just about people being people and turns it into a gender/sexism issue, but the mere existence of the complaint itself reveals so much fractal sexism in the eye of the beholder that I wish I could go back and unread it, then I wouldn't have spent ten minutes writing this inelegant rebuttal.
I read the story as the protagonist being vulnerable, insecure, and a bit unhinged:
> For one horrible second I contemplated killing her but that was wildly out of proportion and then I tried to pretend that I had only wished she was dead and then I just tried to forget about it.
The other (female, no less) characters in the story seem to agree:
> “Revenge?” She looked surprised. “I get something like… I don’t know, but revenge is a leap.”
Whereas you explained those same character traits by the author being a man, and thus sexist, and not knowing how women think. That line of thinking already contains two invalid generalizations, ie "this isn't how women think" and "therefore a man wrote this, because only men don't know how women think".
I guess this bothers me because it takes something I read as just about people being people and turns it into a gender/sexism issue, but the mere existence of the complaint itself reveals so much fractal sexism in the eye of the beholder that I wish I could go back and unread it, then I wouldn't have spent ten minutes writing this inelegant rebuttal.
Consider: what is the purpose of each story beat? Why does the girlfriend create the spreadsheet? Why does the main character react so extremely to it? Why does she feel the need to get revenge instead of just moving on? If your answer to each is just "because otherwise there would be no story" it does not make for a compelling, realistic story.
Sure, there are women who keep spreadsheets like this, and sure, there are women who have outsized reactions. But none of the surrounding context feels reasonable or meaningful. It misses the reason why people keep spreadsheets like this (more to get a better understanding of themselves than to linearly rank their partners) and why someone might react so extremely or try and get revenge (they had already been through some atypical situation that made them this way or otherwise, for example; nearly any explanation would do but we're not given one).
It's not just that the author is male. It's that the author is male and is making contrivances that don't feel realistic, that could feel more realistic after some sort of consultation with either a more experienced writer or just like a woman or whatever. The characters are just cardboard cutouts that move a story forward and that doesn't make for a good read.
And is it really sexist to point out (especially in combination with the above) that the author is a man when the whole story is intended to be a relationship between two women, a kind of experience that the author is unlikely to have personally had?
Sure, there are women who keep spreadsheets like this, and sure, there are women who have outsized reactions. But none of the surrounding context feels reasonable or meaningful. It misses the reason why people keep spreadsheets like this (more to get a better understanding of themselves than to linearly rank their partners) and why someone might react so extremely or try and get revenge (they had already been through some atypical situation that made them this way or otherwise, for example; nearly any explanation would do but we're not given one).
It's not just that the author is male. It's that the author is male and is making contrivances that don't feel realistic, that could feel more realistic after some sort of consultation with either a more experienced writer or just like a woman or whatever. The characters are just cardboard cutouts that move a story forward and that doesn't make for a good read.
And is it really sexist to point out (especially in combination with the above) that the author is a man when the whole story is intended to be a relationship between two women, a kind of experience that the author is unlikely to have personally had?
> Consider: what is the purpose of each story beat? Why does the girlfriend create the spreadsheet? Why does the main character react so extremely to it? Why does she feel the need to get revenge instead of just moving on? If your answer to each is just "because otherwise there would be no story" it does not make for a compelling, realistic story.
I took the story as satire, with the over-the-top reactions of both the spreadsheet-maker and the spreadsheet-reader. I don't know why the spreadsheet-maker made the spreadsheet, but I also don't know why Romeo and Juliet fell in love, beyond "otherwise there would be no story". Your points are reasonable, it's just that I enjoyed the story as satire even with these elements.
> And is it really sexist to point out (especially in combination with the above) that the author is a man when the whole story is intended to be a relationship between two women, a kind of experience that the author is unlikely to have personally had?
I'll reuse the same example, do we need Shakespeare to have attempted suicide with his 13-year-old lover before he could write the play?
I took the story as satire, with the over-the-top reactions of both the spreadsheet-maker and the spreadsheet-reader. I don't know why the spreadsheet-maker made the spreadsheet, but I also don't know why Romeo and Juliet fell in love, beyond "otherwise there would be no story". Your points are reasonable, it's just that I enjoyed the story as satire even with these elements.
> And is it really sexist to point out (especially in combination with the above) that the author is a man when the whole story is intended to be a relationship between two women, a kind of experience that the author is unlikely to have personally had?
I'll reuse the same example, do we need Shakespeare to have attempted suicide with his 13-year-old lover before he could write the play?
You can take the story for whatever genre you see it as, but being satire doesn't excuse it from being shallow.
Romeo and Juliet fall in love for some very grounded, realistic reasons. They are adolescents, which are known to be particularly susceptible to falling in love, and also doing it with someone your parents don't like is extra hot, and so on.
And the way the story plays out requires some suspension of disbelief (wait, how did they get married if the royals would forbid it?) but it is always explained in a way that at least feels like it logically follows (oh, the Friar believes secretly marrying the two might bring peace; funnily ironic that they then should die instead).
Shakespeare did not have to experience these situations in order to portray them. When they start to get over the top and imaginative we at least feel like we started from some sort of grounded position, so it isn't so hard to suspend our disbelief. The entire play is building up to this ultimate tragedy and it earns it.
This contrasts with the other work, which does not set up anything before attempting to claim a payoff. The characters just are the way they are, things just happen. They don't have to be explained or have reasons that follow, because it's just satire.
I am not blaming the author for taking creative license in the way that Shakespeare did in describing the suicide of a pair of romantically involved individuals. Nor am I blaming the author for being a man. I am blaming the author for producing a work that is just shallow in a gendered feeling way. Were the author a woman, they might have realized that women don't just do things randomly but instead, drawing on her past experience being a woman, that they usually have a backstory where these things originate from.
If you like stories like this, don't let me yuck your yum. But also it is good to take the time to more deeply think about a work and what it means, why the characters act the way they do, why the author produced it in the first place.
Romeo and Juliet fall in love for some very grounded, realistic reasons. They are adolescents, which are known to be particularly susceptible to falling in love, and also doing it with someone your parents don't like is extra hot, and so on.
And the way the story plays out requires some suspension of disbelief (wait, how did they get married if the royals would forbid it?) but it is always explained in a way that at least feels like it logically follows (oh, the Friar believes secretly marrying the two might bring peace; funnily ironic that they then should die instead).
Shakespeare did not have to experience these situations in order to portray them. When they start to get over the top and imaginative we at least feel like we started from some sort of grounded position, so it isn't so hard to suspend our disbelief. The entire play is building up to this ultimate tragedy and it earns it.
This contrasts with the other work, which does not set up anything before attempting to claim a payoff. The characters just are the way they are, things just happen. They don't have to be explained or have reasons that follow, because it's just satire.
I am not blaming the author for taking creative license in the way that Shakespeare did in describing the suicide of a pair of romantically involved individuals. Nor am I blaming the author for being a man. I am blaming the author for producing a work that is just shallow in a gendered feeling way. Were the author a woman, they might have realized that women don't just do things randomly but instead, drawing on her past experience being a woman, that they usually have a backstory where these things originate from.
If you like stories like this, don't let me yuck your yum. But also it is good to take the time to more deeply think about a work and what it means, why the characters act the way they do, why the author produced it in the first place.
I see what you mean, thanks, that's insightful. I don't know how I'd feel if it were two men, with nothing else being different, but I suspect I'd think the same.
Basically, I can see why you find the writing bad, I'm just not sure I agree on whether it would be better if the characters were men.
Basically, I can see why you find the writing bad, I'm just not sure I agree on whether it would be better if the characters were men.
But you're a man, and so is the original commenter, so we can freely disregard your POV as well.
You can freely disregard anyone's POV at any time, regardless of their gender. I won't stop you if that's your prerogative.
However, I've also talked to people (to women!) on the subject of these dating spreadsheets, and found those discussions to be way more nuanced and interesting than the puppet show the original work's author put on. So disregard my POV (and theirs, and everyone else's) if you like, but I find discussing the actual experiences had by affected individuals to be way more interesting than whatever game the rest of y'all seem to be playing.
Also, man or otherwise, the original work fails in terms of like, plain literary merit. The fact that a man wrote it only comes up because a woman would have been unlikely to make so many mistakes and to have put up so many extraordinarily shallow characters if she were working with lived experience.
However, I've also talked to people (to women!) on the subject of these dating spreadsheets, and found those discussions to be way more nuanced and interesting than the puppet show the original work's author put on. So disregard my POV (and theirs, and everyone else's) if you like, but I find discussing the actual experiences had by affected individuals to be way more interesting than whatever game the rest of y'all seem to be playing.
Also, man or otherwise, the original work fails in terms of like, plain literary merit. The fact that a man wrote it only comes up because a woman would have been unlikely to make so many mistakes and to have put up so many extraordinarily shallow characters if she were working with lived experience.
> because here I was, reading this story, not generalizing about what gender does what, just seeing a character with flaws, and then your comment comes along and makes it not just about the gender of the character, but the gender of the author as well
Have you considered that your POV is limited, and that a woman reading this story (and every other story) might have a different perspective than you?
> I wish I could go back and unread it, then I wouldn't have spent ten minutes writing this inelegant rebuttal.
You seem to be upset that someone had a different perspective. You might want to learn some emotional control techniques if you are this upset over an observation someone made.
Have you considered that your POV is limited, and that a woman reading this story (and every other story) might have a different perspective than you?
> I wish I could go back and unread it, then I wouldn't have spent ten minutes writing this inelegant rebuttal.
You seem to be upset that someone had a different perspective. You might want to learn some emotional control techniques if you are this upset over an observation someone made.
You just reminded me that there hasn't been a single time I broke my "don't touch gender politics with a ten-foot pole" rule and didn't regret it.
I am sorry you don't have the maturity to process different points of view.
> Have you considered that your POV is limited, and that a woman reading this story (and every other story) might have a different perspective than you?
Are you seriously asking 'stavros if he considered that other people may have sexist views and therefore his non-sexist view take is wrong?
Are you seriously asking 'stavros if he considered that other people may have sexist views and therefore his non-sexist view take is wrong?
> Are you seriously asking 'stavros if he considered that other people may have sexist views and therefore his non-sexist view take is wrong?
I am asking Stavros to consider that Women readers may be hyper-aware of bad male writing due to its ubiquity. Stavros does not have this view and is upset that someone made him aware of their perspective. I am not a woman so I am not as aware of bad female writing, but when I consume media around women they are able to pick up on things that I would never have noticed.
Stavros' inability to understand something this basic means he either has a hard time understanding that people have different POVs, or is so entrenched in anti-gender politics that he can't even fathom a woman's perspective of being forced to read bad writing without getting upset about... (something??? I am not sure what).
I am asking Stavros to consider that Women readers may be hyper-aware of bad male writing due to its ubiquity. Stavros does not have this view and is upset that someone made him aware of their perspective. I am not a woman so I am not as aware of bad female writing, but when I consume media around women they are able to pick up on things that I would never have noticed.
Stavros' inability to understand something this basic means he either has a hard time understanding that people have different POVs, or is so entrenched in anti-gender politics that he can't even fathom a woman's perspective of being forced to read bad writing without getting upset about... (something??? I am not sure what).
Why does it have to be "bad male writing" or "bad female writing" rather than "bad writing"? How does gender add anything here?
The answer I am going to give you starts with the idea that we live in a patriarchy, where men are programmed with a subconscious bias about women. If you can't entertain that idea then you will disagree with everything I say afterwards, but just hear me out for the sake of argument.
This unconscious bias is mostly invisible to men, but very visible to women. Women realize acutely that they are being treated differently in social interactions or in portrayals in fiction. They have to experience it every single day so it becomes really obvious.
Now some examples of "Bad Writing" could be creating a Mary Sue, or having too much exposition. Neither of these have anything to do with gender.
"Bad Male Writing" would be a phenomenon that comes about as a result of subconscious bias that a man learns from growing up in a patriarchical society. Some examples of "Bad Male Writing" would be not characterizing women enough, spending a lot of time on their appearances, etc.
It sounds like what tipped OP off to the author being male was the irrationality of one of the female characters. To steal from another comment in this thread:
> I am blaming the author for producing a work that is just shallow in a gendered feeling way. Were the author a woman, they might have realized that women don't just do things randomly but instead, drawing on her past experience being a woman, that they usually have a backstory where these things originate from.
> How does gender add anything here?
It adds something to the analysis because men and women have different experiences and that informs their worldview.
The whole internet meme of men thinking about the roman empire is relevant here.
When men think about the Roman empire they think about the conquest, the logistics, the infrastructure, the engineering, the military tactics, etc.
When women think about the Roman empire they usually think about how horrible it must have been to live under it as a woman. Men (mostly) don't consider the difficulty of menstruation in a city without a sewer system. Or the danger of childbirth in a world without germ theory and basic hygiene.
There is an entire dimension to the roman empire that the male fantasy overlooks.
These aren't insane or radical concepts, most of this is "pop culture" feminism I have learned literally just by talking to women.
This unconscious bias is mostly invisible to men, but very visible to women. Women realize acutely that they are being treated differently in social interactions or in portrayals in fiction. They have to experience it every single day so it becomes really obvious.
Now some examples of "Bad Writing" could be creating a Mary Sue, or having too much exposition. Neither of these have anything to do with gender.
"Bad Male Writing" would be a phenomenon that comes about as a result of subconscious bias that a man learns from growing up in a patriarchical society. Some examples of "Bad Male Writing" would be not characterizing women enough, spending a lot of time on their appearances, etc.
It sounds like what tipped OP off to the author being male was the irrationality of one of the female characters. To steal from another comment in this thread:
> I am blaming the author for producing a work that is just shallow in a gendered feeling way. Were the author a woman, they might have realized that women don't just do things randomly but instead, drawing on her past experience being a woman, that they usually have a backstory where these things originate from.
> How does gender add anything here?
It adds something to the analysis because men and women have different experiences and that informs their worldview.
The whole internet meme of men thinking about the roman empire is relevant here.
When men think about the Roman empire they think about the conquest, the logistics, the infrastructure, the engineering, the military tactics, etc.
When women think about the Roman empire they usually think about how horrible it must have been to live under it as a woman. Men (mostly) don't consider the difficulty of menstruation in a city without a sewer system. Or the danger of childbirth in a world without germ theory and basic hygiene.
There is an entire dimension to the roman empire that the male fantasy overlooks.
These aren't insane or radical concepts, most of this is "pop culture" feminism I have learned literally just by talking to women.
Perhaps the parent comment is indirectly referring to the Margaret Atwood quote:
“Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.”
“Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.”
Since Margaret Atwood was, presumably, a woman, this would only weaken striking's case by reinforcing the choice used by the author.
> This comment bothers me, because here I was, reading this story, not generalizing about what gender does what, just seeing a character with flaws, and then your comment comes along and makes it not just about the gender of the character, but the gender of the author as well.
The story was written by Conor Barnes. From his LinkedIn, well, see for yourself: https://www.linkedin.com/in/conor-barnes-b49833206/
The story was written by Conor Barnes. From his LinkedIn, well, see for yourself: https://www.linkedin.com/in/conor-barnes-b49833206/
What am I supposed to be seeing here?
Surely the tipoff is the name in the domain name, ConorBarnes.com
Also the lovemaking training with a random male acquaintance.
That was the part that exercised my "suspension of disbelief" muscle the most. As a hero-in-training montages go, this part is one of the most implausible and hammy.
What sort of lovemaking do women authors write?
If you wanted to get better at making love with women, would you practice making love with men?
You know I almost mentioned that in my original comment but the more I think about it, the more I don't think it's actually bad.
I think a lot of what men might consider "soft skills" in the bedroom (pun intended) would not only transfer to a lesbian context but have more salience there.
I think a lot of what men might consider "soft skills" in the bedroom (pun intended) would not only transfer to a lesbian context but have more salience there.
Maybe (just for the sake of argument), but does the work make that argument or does it just do whatever it wants and force us to justify it post hoc?
Is this a kind of mistake only male writers make?
Depends what level of meta you're thinking about it on. Female writers make converse mistakes and write e.g. a male character who doesn't care whether he's good in bed, or doesn't even conceptualise that as a metric that one ranks people on.
If you end up asking a woman that, please let me know what she says.
Women don't contemplate murder? Even fleetingly?
In response to being listed in a spreadsheet? It's not a great thing to experience but women are pretty much constantly objectified in our society so it does seem a little out of left field that this particular incident sets our main character (briefly) on the path to murder. A male author might find this premise to be novel simply for not having had the same life experiences as a female author might have had (i.e. not being regularly objectified).
I too found this work to feel a little weird, for the same reason as GP. It feels like a story told the way a man might experience it, but with a woman's voice and tone. Less believable still is the way it goes on and on, with the protagonist trying to turn herself into a perfectly scoring example. I get that sometimes it's okay because otherwise there would be no story, but I don't buy the motivation or the end result in combination and that really makes it hard for me to read.
I've actually heard of this particular thing (spreadsheets of dating partners) already and the way it was presented to me it seemed pretty reasonable. It's hard to know what you value in a person, so for your own benefit you might try listing a few scores and see which ones match up most strongly with how you feel about someone. Maybe you care deeply that someone knows how to cook, or maybe you think their music taste matching yours is of the utmost importance. It's kind of hard to figure out otherwise. I don't really feel it's quite like an attempt at a linear ordering / sorting of people as much as it is for one's own benefit.
All in all, I kind of wish the author had spent more time consulting women on how their relationships actually work, even if it means the story might never have been written.
I too found this work to feel a little weird, for the same reason as GP. It feels like a story told the way a man might experience it, but with a woman's voice and tone. Less believable still is the way it goes on and on, with the protagonist trying to turn herself into a perfectly scoring example. I get that sometimes it's okay because otherwise there would be no story, but I don't buy the motivation or the end result in combination and that really makes it hard for me to read.
I've actually heard of this particular thing (spreadsheets of dating partners) already and the way it was presented to me it seemed pretty reasonable. It's hard to know what you value in a person, so for your own benefit you might try listing a few scores and see which ones match up most strongly with how you feel about someone. Maybe you care deeply that someone knows how to cook, or maybe you think their music taste matching yours is of the utmost importance. It's kind of hard to figure out otherwise. I don't really feel it's quite like an attempt at a linear ordering / sorting of people as much as it is for one's own benefit.
All in all, I kind of wish the author had spent more time consulting women on how their relationships actually work, even if it means the story might never have been written.
> In response to being listed in a spreadsheet?
There's a whole YouTube genre of documentaries and true-crime-vlogs dedicated to the topic of "women who kill". A woman I know likes watching these, which is how I got to overhear some of the things talked about, so believe me, women can kill for whole host of reasons, many of them far more absurd on the surface than being listed in a spreadsheet.
And so do men, by the way. It's not a gender thing.
And if you don't believe me, feel free to watch some of those videos, or read up on the investigations they cover on your own.
There's a whole YouTube genre of documentaries and true-crime-vlogs dedicated to the topic of "women who kill". A woman I know likes watching these, which is how I got to overhear some of the things talked about, so believe me, women can kill for whole host of reasons, many of them far more absurd on the surface than being listed in a spreadsheet.
And so do men, by the way. It's not a gender thing.
And if you don't believe me, feel free to watch some of those videos, or read up on the investigations they cover on your own.
I understand that. I invite you to read the reply I wrote to the sibling comment that roughly says what yours does: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38512845
>In response to being listed in a spreadsheet?
Women sometimes viciously attack each other over petty things like wearing the same dress.
Just because women in your circle have restraint doesn't mean they don't have urges.
Women sometimes viciously attack each other over petty things like wearing the same dress.
Just because women in your circle have restraint doesn't mean they don't have urges.
Even if you accept that premise, why did this character snap at this moment? Usually people who engage in that sort of behavior do so as part of a pattern, sometimes as part of dealing with something that happened to them and other times because it is part of their personality.
Meanwhile this character, with whom we are intended by the author to empathize with and who otherwise is portrayed as a normal (though exceedingly neurotic) human being, briefly has the urge to murder.
It just kind of feels like it doesn't follow, is all. Anyone can have urges but I'm not quite buying this character having that urge without a little more explanation.
(and to be clear: I reject this premise, because without the work making it clear that this specific woman feels this specific way, it feels like the work suggests that we should just accept that any woman might feel this way without serious provocation or a serious backstory and I don't)
Meanwhile this character, with whom we are intended by the author to empathize with and who otherwise is portrayed as a normal (though exceedingly neurotic) human being, briefly has the urge to murder.
It just kind of feels like it doesn't follow, is all. Anyone can have urges but I'm not quite buying this character having that urge without a little more explanation.
(and to be clear: I reject this premise, because without the work making it clear that this specific woman feels this specific way, it feels like the work suggests that we should just accept that any woman might feel this way without serious provocation or a serious backstory and I don't)
Not unless their hormones are way off.
ok that explains why the author is "Conor". I've met women with traditionally-masc names, but never a female "Conor".
Knowing that a guy wrote this ruined the post for me.
I thought this story was going to be about an AI partner discovering the stats that defined them, and changing them to abruptly alter their personality.
Interesting how being rated lead her to become better in every way but she still hates it.
There is rarely such a thing as objectively better. The only self improvement is one in which you feel you have grown more in line with your true self: the you who you want to be. The story is about growing into some dimensions, but if the author does not value those metrics, who is to say it’s positive growth?
I have a friend. He’s obsessed with self improvement. And he is good at it. He reads exhaustively about the most effective business people because he says it’s necessary to learn their habits. He gets up at 5:00am every day because sleeping in is wasting time you could spend improving yourself. His weekends are full of planning exercises for how he can most effectively use his week ahead.
He makes good money, is in great shape, has great social connections, etc. but he is deeply unhappy. Because to feel the constant need to improve means you also feel a constant sense of not being good enough.
I think in the context of this story, and really life in general, the only person whose acceptance matters is your own. To be happy with your life, with how you think and how you spend your time, with who you are and who you keep company with.
I have a friend. He’s obsessed with self improvement. And he is good at it. He reads exhaustively about the most effective business people because he says it’s necessary to learn their habits. He gets up at 5:00am every day because sleeping in is wasting time you could spend improving yourself. His weekends are full of planning exercises for how he can most effectively use his week ahead.
He makes good money, is in great shape, has great social connections, etc. but he is deeply unhappy. Because to feel the constant need to improve means you also feel a constant sense of not being good enough.
I think in the context of this story, and really life in general, the only person whose acceptance matters is your own. To be happy with your life, with how you think and how you spend your time, with who you are and who you keep company with.
Yeah. also:
GF: She shrugged. “I like being real with myself about where I’m at. So I do those sheets. I’m sorry you saw it. (...)
Author: I told her I was sorry she needed that. Then I kissed her cheek like the moon kisses the sun at the end of an eclipse. Then I left. Then I was gone.
Me: Sucks being the girlfriend with ADHD and/or on the spectrum.
What's the moral here? All I can see is, "never ever let others learn of your coping mechanisms - they won't understand".
GF: She shrugged. “I like being real with myself about where I’m at. So I do those sheets. I’m sorry you saw it. (...)
Author: I told her I was sorry she needed that. Then I kissed her cheek like the moon kisses the sun at the end of an eclipse. Then I left. Then I was gone.
Me: Sucks being the girlfriend with ADHD and/or on the spectrum.
What's the moral here? All I can see is, "never ever let others learn of your coping mechanisms - they won't understand".
> never ever let others learn of your coping mechanisms - they won't understand
My honed-over-16-years org-mode config ensures that this would be unlikely, and someone who does figure out how to navigate my notes and journal entries probably wouldn’t judge too hard :)
Less glib, that is a really difficult topic to navigate. Post-diagnosis (at age 36) I tried to be pretty open with the people I love and care about and discovered that many of them were carrying around their own diagnoses in secret. Others didn’t know how to react. No one reacted particularly poorly.
I am blessed with a partner who is almost certainly somewhere on the neurodiverse spectrum in some way (never officially diagnosed) and both her and my families are chock full of various ADHD and Autism diagnoses. In a lot of ways I’m almost certain that that’s why our relationship worked out when past relationships hadn’t; things that I thought were perfectly normal behaviour were often deal-breakers to past partners.
My honed-over-16-years org-mode config ensures that this would be unlikely, and someone who does figure out how to navigate my notes and journal entries probably wouldn’t judge too hard :)
Less glib, that is a really difficult topic to navigate. Post-diagnosis (at age 36) I tried to be pretty open with the people I love and care about and discovered that many of them were carrying around their own diagnoses in secret. Others didn’t know how to react. No one reacted particularly poorly.
I am blessed with a partner who is almost certainly somewhere on the neurodiverse spectrum in some way (never officially diagnosed) and both her and my families are chock full of various ADHD and Autism diagnoses. In a lot of ways I’m almost certain that that’s why our relationship worked out when past relationships hadn’t; things that I thought were perfectly normal behaviour were often deal-breakers to past partners.
Does having ADHD and/or being on the spectrum mean that, if your girlfriend discovers you think of the shared relationship as temporary, she shouldn't leave?
Perhaps the moral of the story is "other people exist and have agency". Sure, you've got coping mechanisms, but if they're emotionally destructive to other people then you might need better coping mechanisms that aren't awful. Maybe you could use the spreadsheet for potential birthday presents and favourite foods instead of deciding to string your partner along but eventually leave.
Or perhaps it's "you're not always the centre of the story". Sometimes the story is about the other person being a complete weirdo. Your chill, or lack thereof, is less important than finding out your partner wants to leave you.
Or perhaps it's "self-improvement gets you out of bad situations". Through the process of getting to 10, the protagonist met her future girlfriend and learned to leave her current emotionally hurtful one in a kinder way.
Perhaps the moral of the story is "other people exist and have agency". Sure, you've got coping mechanisms, but if they're emotionally destructive to other people then you might need better coping mechanisms that aren't awful. Maybe you could use the spreadsheet for potential birthday presents and favourite foods instead of deciding to string your partner along but eventually leave.
Or perhaps it's "you're not always the centre of the story". Sometimes the story is about the other person being a complete weirdo. Your chill, or lack thereof, is less important than finding out your partner wants to leave you.
Or perhaps it's "self-improvement gets you out of bad situations". Through the process of getting to 10, the protagonist met her future girlfriend and learned to leave her current emotionally hurtful one in a kinder way.
I like the discussion below, because this is honestly a complex issue. It sucks for the narrator if her girlfriend thinks she's below her standard. It sucks that she found out accidentally.
But is it wrong for the girlfriend to have had those feeling? I don't think so. We don't get to know, as readers, whether their relationship was supposed to have been serious. So maybe the girlfriend was leading the narrator on, or maybe it was just casual.
I also don't think it was wrong for the girlfriend to keep an unfiltered journal, if the purpose of the sheet was just working through her thoughts.
On the other hand, the narrator encounters the document accidentally. She probably should have respected the girlfriend's privacy, but who among us wouldn't have read further? It's not wrong for her to feel devastated.
The basic set up of the story is a conflict between two people, who both have taken understandable actions up to that point. It feels uncomfortable to us, because we want to be able to identify the good guy and bad guy here, but it's not so easy. This desire is deeply rooted in Western culture, or maybe even in our neurology as a species.
I think it's better to assume that most people mean well, but sometimes make suboptimal decisions based on their circumstances and the path dependent development of their personality. Sometimes those decisions can be quite heinous. But for most of us, it's the little ways we unintentionally undermine ourselves and our relationships.
To me, this story is about this exact thing. The narrator goes a bit off the rails as a result of an understandable emotional trigger. Until the end, the narrator barely, if ever, questions her self-righteousness.
It would kind of be cool for the author to write the story from the girlfriend's point of view. But then again, he kind of did. The narrator essentially accepts the worldview of the girlfriend, and reorganizes her life around it. But where did the girlfriend's worldview come from? Maybe we're meant to assume the girlfriend had a similar experience, which drove her to be so top tier, at least superficially.
But is it wrong for the girlfriend to have had those feeling? I don't think so. We don't get to know, as readers, whether their relationship was supposed to have been serious. So maybe the girlfriend was leading the narrator on, or maybe it was just casual.
I also don't think it was wrong for the girlfriend to keep an unfiltered journal, if the purpose of the sheet was just working through her thoughts.
On the other hand, the narrator encounters the document accidentally. She probably should have respected the girlfriend's privacy, but who among us wouldn't have read further? It's not wrong for her to feel devastated.
The basic set up of the story is a conflict between two people, who both have taken understandable actions up to that point. It feels uncomfortable to us, because we want to be able to identify the good guy and bad guy here, but it's not so easy. This desire is deeply rooted in Western culture, or maybe even in our neurology as a species.
I think it's better to assume that most people mean well, but sometimes make suboptimal decisions based on their circumstances and the path dependent development of their personality. Sometimes those decisions can be quite heinous. But for most of us, it's the little ways we unintentionally undermine ourselves and our relationships.
To me, this story is about this exact thing. The narrator goes a bit off the rails as a result of an understandable emotional trigger. Until the end, the narrator barely, if ever, questions her self-righteousness.
It would kind of be cool for the author to write the story from the girlfriend's point of view. But then again, he kind of did. The narrator essentially accepts the worldview of the girlfriend, and reorganizes her life around it. But where did the girlfriend's worldview come from? Maybe we're meant to assume the girlfriend had a similar experience, which drove her to be so top tier, at least superficially.
There's no moral. It's a made up story.
All stories have a moral. That is why humans love them so much.
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Maybe the moral is that some stories trick readers into thinking they have a moral, and hence stories and authors should not be trusted?
Does that absolve the hurt or pain that those coping mechanisms might cause? Does it absolve responsibility for your actions?
You bear responsibility for when people are reasonably hurt by your actions. I would say you don't bear responsibility for when people take exception to private thoughts that weren't acted on, and to my mind that should extend to your private notes too.
Not interesting because it isn’t really believable as portrayed.
I read this in an American Psycho kind of way where she only thinks she’s getting better, but she’s actually delusional.
Thanks for sharing. Nice read, the ending warmed my heart, and put a small tear in my eye.
What really bothered me in this story is that the crazy used a 1-10 scale. Everybody knows the best scale is 1-5.
The problem with 1-10 is that the middle of the scale is 5.5, so you can’t give a neutral rating with a whole number.
But 1-5 is often insufficient resolution (unless you do decimals, in which case it’s too much resolution), so the best scale is 0-10.
But 1-5 is often insufficient resolution (unless you do decimals, in which case it’s too much resolution), so the best scale is 0-10.
For rating media I (internally) do 1-10 with 5 in the middle!
1 is worst, 5 is neutral, 9 is best and 10 is "personal favourite". This goes really well with the fact that not everything I really like is actually great so I can acknowledge that by giving it a spot to the side in its own category :)
1 is worst, 5 is neutral, 9 is best and 10 is "personal favourite". This goes really well with the fact that not everything I really like is actually great so I can acknowledge that by giving it a spot to the side in its own category :)
0-10 is exactly like that, but with the matching acknowledgement that sometimes a thing just deserves no points and scoring it a 1 would be too generous.
If there's 100+ dimensions, quantizing to ~2.3 bits might be fine.
it's good not to be able to give a neuteral rating, if there is a center lazy raters skew neutral.
Women are faced with being rated as sex objects usually out of 10. It is in the language "she's a 10" there are films [1]. Likely this is the point.
[1] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0078721/?ref_=ttfc_fc_tt
[1] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0078721/?ref_=ttfc_fc_tt
She used 0-10. Source passage:
> It’s all just numbers. It’s all just 1 to 10 (besides the 0 I got for math).
(Your attention to detail: 2.0. Protagonist's math rating, at that point, was clearly justified too.)
> It’s all just numbers. It’s all just 1 to 10 (besides the 0 I got for math).
(Your attention to detail: 2.0. Protagonist's math rating, at that point, was clearly justified too.)
Is it really 0-10 if you also use decimals? The protagonist got a 6.5 for love-making.
At that point you might as well use a 0-1 scale (0.65), or a percentage (65%).
At that point you might as well use a 0-1 scale (0.65), or a percentage (65%).
It's a precision illusion. Obviously there's no actual a 100 (or, technically, 101) levels of lovemaking skill that the rater is able to recognize and meaningfully distinguish. However, having a 6.5 seems like it was well considered and thought of in detail while just 6 looks like sloppy "barely better than absolutely mediocre". So, the person using 6.5 is pretending (unwarrantedly) to be very knowledgeable and precise in these evaluations. This is, btw, a very realistic part - a lot of people do this in real-life contexts, much different from rating girlfriends.
1-10? I was under the impression that when people use 10-based scale, it’s 0-10.
You also think the imperial system is the best I guess?
Really enjoyed reading this
maybe a 6.5 story
As someone whose college girlfriend made a (much shorter) numerical chart about me before later dumping me, and even referenced it when explaining why, this hits home in a strange way.
You might enjoy this: https://www.joeydevilla.com/2004/07/30/the-breakup-style-of-...
I did! This definitely applied. I wish I could go into more detail about how without doxxing myself, but PowerPoint had a unique and very strange prominence in my college friend group.
Since this is Hacker News and this text is written in first-person without introduction, it probably deserves a "fiction" warning in the title or something...
You're not seriously suggesting that anyone reading that wouldn't know within a couple of sentences that it's not fiction? Or are you worried that people might end up reading fiction without a trigger warning?
"What to Submit. On-topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
"What to Submit. On-topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
I read the first paragraph, then skipped to the comments and realized it's fiction but I'm not sure I would have known otherwise.
What gives it away to you that it's a work of fiction?
What gives it away to you that it's a work of fiction?
It's a combination of things that screams fiction:
1. Most stories about lesbians that aren't attributed to a definitely female author are written by males.
2. It seems unlikely someone so pedantic to keep full records of their partners would be careless enough to leave the file open for someone to find.
3. Keeping spreadsheets of data about your partners is not very usual to begin with (though not unheard of), but it's hard to imagine anyone would be so meticulous to rate a partner by now fewer than a hundred criteria. I don't think I could even formulate a 100 criteria worth caring about, let alone gather enough data about a person to assign concrete ratings in just a few months of dating.
1. Most stories about lesbians that aren't attributed to a definitely female author are written by males.
2. It seems unlikely someone so pedantic to keep full records of their partners would be careless enough to leave the file open for someone to find.
3. Keeping spreadsheets of data about your partners is not very usual to begin with (though not unheard of), but it's hard to imagine anyone would be so meticulous to rate a partner by now fewer than a hundred criteria. I don't think I could even formulate a 100 criteria worth caring about, let alone gather enough data about a person to assign concrete ratings in just a few months of dating.
> 1. Most stories about lesbians that aren't attributed to a definitely female author are written by males.
You'd have to be well versed in lesbian literature to know this.
> 2. It seems unlikely someone so pedantic to keep full records of their partners would be careless enough to leave the file open for someone to find.
For sure but this is well into the story.
> 3. Keeping spreadsheets of data about your partners is not very usual to begin with (though not unheard of), but it's hard to imagine anyone would be so meticulous to rate a partner by now fewer than a hundred criteria. I don't think I could even formulate a 100 criteria worth caring about, let alone gather enough data about a person to assign concrete ratings in just a few months of dating.
The problem is HN is THE place for "not very usual (though not unheard of)" so there is a genuine disconnect going on. You can see the evidence in the comments here.
You'd have to be well versed in lesbian literature to know this.
> 2. It seems unlikely someone so pedantic to keep full records of their partners would be careless enough to leave the file open for someone to find.
For sure but this is well into the story.
> 3. Keeping spreadsheets of data about your partners is not very usual to begin with (though not unheard of), but it's hard to imagine anyone would be so meticulous to rate a partner by now fewer than a hundred criteria. I don't think I could even formulate a 100 criteria worth caring about, let alone gather enough data about a person to assign concrete ratings in just a few months of dating.
The problem is HN is THE place for "not very usual (though not unheard of)" so there is a genuine disconnect going on. You can see the evidence in the comments here.
It‘s narrated in the first person from the perspective of a woman, written by a dude.
There is a lot of stuff related to literature, history, and art that could be posted on HN if being "intellectually gratifying" is the only criterion for being "on-topic." Yet all that's posted here is tech stuff and startups, pretty much. I think of this site as a "tech/tech industry" website.
Also, I would say that this story isn't particularly intellectually gratifying.
Also, I would say that this story isn't particularly intellectually gratifying.
> Since this is Hacker News
Should rebrand as Hacker Thoughts for April Fools next year.
Should rebrand as Hacker Thoughts for April Fools next year.
Reminds me of Moby’s Friendship-Acquaintance 6-Stage Theory:
https://maximumfun.org/images/mobytheory.pdf
This was on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. It contains deep truths which are generally not ok to say out loud.
https://maximumfun.org/images/mobytheory.pdf
This was on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. It contains deep truths which are generally not ok to say out loud.
Cute but childish. Would fit well in “young adults” section for girls and I wish lots of boys also read it.
I'm very taken by the illustration. Is it computer-generated, or drawn? It is a very strange but also very nice room.
I think it's acceptable to make a sheet like that. As long as is doesn't end with "temporary"
Why?
Why not? Does it matter if you do or don't materialise what is already in your thoughts into (what should be) a private sheet?
My problem with the spreadsheet is that it has "temporary" and red cells in it. If your private thoughts are that you should leave your girlfriend, then it's a bad idea to stay and a worse idea to compare her to the other options. It's inconsiderate of the limited time she has available for living her life. Commit, leave, or communicate to her that the relationship is temporary.
Plus, a numerical rating from 0 to 10 is a reductionist way of understanding someone. What exactly does a low chill mean? It's probably situational, right? Numerically defining someone turns amorphous changing thoughts into a solid number and locks that perception in place, preventing you from learning more. Maybe you're putting her in situations where she's not chill? Maybe it's situational and you haven't learned what causes it? These complexities hide behind a single simplifying number.
Plus, a numerical rating from 0 to 10 is a reductionist way of understanding someone. What exactly does a low chill mean? It's probably situational, right? Numerically defining someone turns amorphous changing thoughts into a solid number and locks that perception in place, preventing you from learning more. Maybe you're putting her in situations where she's not chill? Maybe it's situational and you haven't learned what causes it? These complexities hide behind a single simplifying number.
I dunno, feels kind of like writing things you don’t want your boss to know in corporate chat.
Idk I think its wrong or at the least unhealthy to evaluate ( also known as judge) people on a scale like that.
This is tangential to the subject at hand, but I feel obliged to complain about how much Substacks now requires you install its app to read the content. Very similar to Reddit, in fact. I've watched the progression in pushiness over the year. On my phone, I did not install the app and there was apparently no other way to read the article.
I block Reddit at the router for similar dark patterns.
I block Reddit at the router for similar dark patterns.
I’ve never seen this. Can you screenshot what they’re showing you?
Fiction or not, the burgeoning anomie of modern Western society encourages the commodification of individuals, sociopathic social-sexual gamification patterns, and the absolute reduction of people to numeric grades and unflattering notations. Regardless of what people wish were the case, there is very little modern socio-economic penalty for being an asshole.
Great writing. With a satirical edge.
I can imagine this becoming a meme.
I'll give it a solid 8.
I can imagine this becoming a meme.
I'll give it a solid 8.
This is not a story that the readership here is well-equipped to understand.
The bottom 80% of women are placeholder girlfriends/concubines/side chicks/in chad's harem and the bottom 80% of men are sexless cucks. Such is life western society.
Please don't do this here.
Edit: Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait? You've unfortunately been doing it repeatedly. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.
If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
Edit: Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait? You've unfortunately been doing it repeatedly. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.
If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
I'll tone it down.
My favorite line: "Before it had bothered me that I was low on both Ambition and Chill (6.0). But now I was at 10 for both. I was going to humiliate my evil girlfriend. But I was chill about it because I knew it would happen."