2023: Focusing on a single product pays off(maxrozen.com)
maxrozen.com
2023: Focusing on a single product pays off
https://maxrozen.com/2023-focus-single-product-pays-off
97 comments
Tell me about it. I've been plucking away at an online business since 2004. It makes just barely enough money that I'm not quite willing to shut it down but not enough to get excited about or quit my regular job. Hate it.
It’s really hard to change project and recognize the blurredd line between “it doesn’t work” and “I didn’t put enough effort into it”.
My first product worked, but very average. My second project worked excellently, there was quasi-immediate traction. That second thing was resolving an actual business issue.
It’s stagnating now. It’s probably because, even though I don’t feel it, I’m bored (it’s been 7 years). I have difficulty waking up in the morning.
You need to innovate. If not just for your brain and sanity, the market didn’t recognize your first product. Evaluate whether you should trust the sign that the market gives you.
Launch a second product.
My first product worked, but very average. My second project worked excellently, there was quasi-immediate traction. That second thing was resolving an actual business issue.
It’s stagnating now. It’s probably because, even though I don’t feel it, I’m bored (it’s been 7 years). I have difficulty waking up in the morning.
You need to innovate. If not just for your brain and sanity, the market didn’t recognize your first product. Evaluate whether you should trust the sign that the market gives you.
Launch a second product.
Do you have a way I can contact you? I’m looking for a business to acquire and I wonder if there would be a fit.
Do you have a way I can contact you? I’m looking for a business to acquire and I wonder if there would be a fit.
What about selling it on Acquire?
Would you sell thousands of your man hours for 10,000 dollars?
Those hours are gone. If I am no longer interested in a side project, would I sell it for $10K vs. just turning it off? Absolutely!
Think not about the hours you have spent, but about the hours remaining in your life. They are finite. Do you want to spend more of them on that thing that has turned dreary? If you can afford it, it's usually better to call it a day and free up time and mental energy for something new and better.
If the result of those thousands of hours is worth <= 10000 by some valuation method which makes sense to me.
More nuanced answer: I have a project that I've been plugging away at for years now. It may never pay for itself if I value my time at the same rate that I charge it out to others, but in that time it's improved the quality and speed of my other outputs significantly.
In that regard it's probably already paid for itself, but I wouldn't sell it because it continues to be valuable to me both in that regard and as a creative outlet.
If it were a throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks saas I'd have no problem selling it for a reasonable valuation of future earnings.
More nuanced answer: I have a project that I've been plugging away at for years now. It may never pay for itself if I value my time at the same rate that I charge it out to others, but in that time it's improved the quality and speed of my other outputs significantly.
In that regard it's probably already paid for itself, but I wouldn't sell it because it continues to be valuable to me both in that regard and as a creative outlet.
If it were a throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks saas I'd have no problem selling it for a reasonable valuation of future earnings.
Wish I could edit my comment as I see it has triggered many responses. To me, the effort of closing a deal to sell something that's not losing money isn't worth $10,000. I'd rather keep it alive and let users enjoy it. If I'm losing money, that's a different story, of course. But since selling on Acquire tops at $10,000, I decide that it's not worth my time. I might think differently if instead of $10,000 it was $100,000. That would pay off part of my mortgage. But having to do KT, sign documents, consult with lawyers, do loads of admin for $10,000? No way. I am almost offended
Maybe people are assuming it's $10,000 net after the cost of lawyers and "admin" or whatever it takes to sell your thing on Acquire. $10,000 is a lot of money, if I had some hobby project that was break even and I was getting sick of dealing with it, I'd even sell it for $1,000, let alone $10,000 which can be life changing!
Even if it meant you can't work on something similar to that hobby project again?
Probably. OP said he can't get excited about the project, and hates the situation, so sure. For a few grand in the pocket, no big deal. Is this really a standard term for selling a failed business? You can't work on something similar ever again for the rest of your life?
> Hate it.
If I was at that point, probably.
The thousands of man hours are a sunk cost. If you wouldn't start the business today knowing what you know now, you should probably sell.
If I was at that point, probably.
The thousands of man hours are a sunk cost. If you wouldn't start the business today knowing what you know now, you should probably sell.
If those hours are in the past, sure. All jokes aside, you’d be selling an asset, not the time you already put into it.
Depends. What will I get for it 2 years from now ? Would someone even pay 10K ? You need to know when to let something go. SOmetimes, at a huge loss. And I am a founder so I know how hard it is to let things go that you put your blood and sweat into.
If it meant I didn't have to spend thousands of more hours working on something that doesn't interest me anymore, sure.
Hire someone and produce proof he can run the business as a manager - then you can have at least 5-7xEBITDA
That's also part of the problem. I don't think I could find anyone competent enough for less than $150K or so, and then we'd be losing money. Plus finding them and training them is hard.
There’s opportunity cost of what worse might be on the radar.
Sunk time isn’t always invaluable.
Sunk time isn’t always invaluable.
Sunk cost fallacy. It doesn't matter how much time or money you've put into something, the question is always what is the best use of my time and money today? The value of something is what someone else is willing to pay for it.
Why sell them when you carry them with you to your grave?
Folks below are saying Acquire caps out at 10K? That's a joke, my business isn't doing that poorly. Thanks for the suggestion though
It doesn't cap out at 10k, it was just a number chosen by the poster. Acquire takes a 4% fee if a deal closes.
It’s really incredible how YouTube shapes the zeitgeist today. Hype cycles and their “movements” should be avoided like the plague.
At the end of the day if you want to gamble, buy a lottery ticket, then at least you are being honest with yourself.
It takes tremendous effort launching products that have integrity, and its something that should be respected, the journey is what its all about.
At the end of the day if you want to gamble, buy a lottery ticket, then at least you are being honest with yourself.
It takes tremendous effort launching products that have integrity, and its something that should be respected, the journey is what its all about.
Stating with problems actually belonging to B2B customers that they have tried and failed to solve and are willing to pay for good a long way instead of being a solution in search of a problem.
Being a solution in search of a problem is being everything on one hypothesis of what you built being correct instead of problem based thinking that would line up multiple hypotheses to then select one to start with.
Startups are a learning engine and most don’t get setup to learn and iterate based on customer feedback.
Being a solution in search of a problem is being everything on one hypothesis of what you built being correct instead of problem based thinking that would line up multiple hypotheses to then select one to start with.
Startups are a learning engine and most don’t get setup to learn and iterate based on customer feedback.
Influencers sell ads around content. Whatever is in that box surrounded by ads doesn't really matter other than being fresh and getting clicks. It's generally more interesting to see videos about different types of projects because it's always new and different people like different things. There's a difference in doing things for content and doing things for real, almost for any content type. Camping content, woodworking content, programming content etc, is optimized for views, not for the actual thing, usually.
You mean build 12 startups in 12 months doesn't work ? Wow, who would have thought ? /s. Sorry for these "SAAS influencers" really piss me off.
This take sounds very bitter and I disagree.
I know someone in the UK who has been in a very poor situation and told them they can make a bit of money by building a small side project and charging for it.
About 6 months later, I caught up with them and they made over £700,000+ by just learning to code, taking advice from others, discipline, and turning around their dire and desperate current situation they really wanted to get out of.
Depending on the situation it actually changes lives.
I know someone in the UK who has been in a very poor situation and told them they can make a bit of money by building a small side project and charging for it.
About 6 months later, I caught up with them and they made over £700,000+ by just learning to code, taking advice from others, discipline, and turning around their dire and desperate current situation they really wanted to get out of.
Depending on the situation it actually changes lives.
I think you are misunderstanding my point, I'm specifically referring to the "build 12 companies in 12 months" version of indie hacking that is really vocal on twitter and other places.
They usually build a landing page or bad prototype, wait for people to come, then move on to "the next startup" if it inevitably doesn't work. Their ideas usually don't have enough potential to sell, and if they do they don't take them far enough to actually realize even a fraction of the potential.
I love bootstrapped companies, I'm all for building side projects and turning them into jobs, but this movement has moved away from that and is now about selling the dream instead of the work.
It sounds like the person you know did not do this and actually created something valuable, that's amazing and I congratulate them. I would like the indie hacker movement to move back to celebrating these success stories instead of the influencer BS.
Edit: and maybe I am a bit bitter as I loved the indie hacker movement. I found it to be incredibly inspiring, and I truly miss the stories of people doing lots of hard work, solving difficult problems, and building incredible products and companies.
They usually build a landing page or bad prototype, wait for people to come, then move on to "the next startup" if it inevitably doesn't work. Their ideas usually don't have enough potential to sell, and if they do they don't take them far enough to actually realize even a fraction of the potential.
I love bootstrapped companies, I'm all for building side projects and turning them into jobs, but this movement has moved away from that and is now about selling the dream instead of the work.
It sounds like the person you know did not do this and actually created something valuable, that's amazing and I congratulate them. I would like the indie hacker movement to move back to celebrating these success stories instead of the influencer BS.
Edit: and maybe I am a bit bitter as I loved the indie hacker movement. I found it to be incredibly inspiring, and I truly miss the stories of people doing lots of hard work, solving difficult problems, and building incredible products and companies.
So that person found a business idea worth solving, learned to code and launch a product and made 700k all in 6 months.
Surely worth a post on its own.
Or was this person already an expert in a certain business domain, which helped to come up with a business idea in that domain?
Surely worth a post on its own.
Or was this person already an expert in a certain business domain, which helped to come up with a business idea in that domain?
I've always been extremely skeptical of the whole "serial entrepreneur" thing.
Well, if you try a lot of stuff, and stop early.. You have more chance of success.. "put your eggs in one basket" kind a thing
There is some truth in that, but if you only spend 1 month on a project it will be really difficult to realize any potential there might be.
It shouldn't be about the time spend but how quickly you can validate assumptions, those are different things.
My point is: It's not "that easy". I'm pro indie hacking, but it's hard work and difficult to create a profitable business that you can live off. Spinning off crappy quick projects only works if you have a big audience you can sell to, and most don't have that, so they will have to put in a lot more effort and time.
It shouldn't be about the time spend but how quickly you can validate assumptions, those are different things.
My point is: It's not "that easy". I'm pro indie hacking, but it's hard work and difficult to create a profitable business that you can live off. Spinning off crappy quick projects only works if you have a big audience you can sell to, and most don't have that, so they will have to put in a lot more effort and time.
I’ve had multiple side projects over the years, and every time I got a little bit further with them towards a commercial success. My latest project is the one I’ve been working on the longest.
It’s been almost 4 years now I think, and within the past year, I’ve started getting traction commercially. (But the first paying customer was after two years or so.)
I guess what I’m saying is that it’s okay to abandon ideas when you feel like they don’t work. Your gut feeling may be right.
You learn something from it, you move on and eventually you hopefully find something that sticks. It’s almost like love.
It’s been almost 4 years now I think, and within the past year, I’ve started getting traction commercially. (But the first paying customer was after two years or so.)
I guess what I’m saying is that it’s okay to abandon ideas when you feel like they don’t work. Your gut feeling may be right.
You learn something from it, you move on and eventually you hopefully find something that sticks. It’s almost like love.
Also, if you want to avoid wasting your time, you have to do everything to find paying customers as fast as possible.
It’s embarrassing to go out with a product that you know isn’t perfect, but if you are meeting a need in the market, people are willing to pay even for an imperfect product.
And it’s much easier to improve a product that has a market, then to find a market for a perfect product that has none.
It’s embarrassing to go out with a product that you know isn’t perfect, but if you are meeting a need in the market, people are willing to pay even for an imperfect product.
And it’s much easier to improve a product that has a market, then to find a market for a perfect product that has none.
I've run a few businesses over the years and the return of investment of self sufficiency is barely worth it in the long run. It's very difficult to replicate the benefits of working for an SME (forget big tech) which it comes to security. You never have to worry about MRR because it's static and only increases.
Also some advice on hyper-optimising for cheap hardware. Don't. Buy something with a warranty from a respectable company. Or buy two of everything else. Downtime will cost you customers. I say that having spent most of those years running off cranky ex corporate thinkpads. They will let you down and you will need an exit plan. At this point I'd rather just buy an off the shelf MacBook config I can walk into the local Apple store and just buy another one if I break it or lose it. No waiting 4-5 days for another ebay thinkpad to turn up and hope it works ok. I run off a base model 14" M1 MacBook Pro now.
Also some advice on hyper-optimising for cheap hardware. Don't. Buy something with a warranty from a respectable company. Or buy two of everything else. Downtime will cost you customers. I say that having spent most of those years running off cranky ex corporate thinkpads. They will let you down and you will need an exit plan. At this point I'd rather just buy an off the shelf MacBook config I can walk into the local Apple store and just buy another one if I break it or lose it. No waiting 4-5 days for another ebay thinkpad to turn up and hope it works ok. I run off a base model 14" M1 MacBook Pro now.
>I've run a few businesses over the years and the return of investment of self sufficiency is barely worth it in the long run.
Most people aren't looking at it from the perspective of making a killing. They just want to get away from having a boss. For whatever reason they don't fit the corporate mould. Running their own show represents freedom.
http://reactionwheel.net/2019/01/schumpeter-on-strategy.html
Most people aren't looking at it from the perspective of making a killing. They just want to get away from having a boss. For whatever reason they don't fit the corporate mould. Running their own show represents freedom.
http://reactionwheel.net/2019/01/schumpeter-on-strategy.html
Whoever is paying you is your boss. There is no escape, only a change in the illusion. If you're a sole trader, it's your customers. If you're a corporate wage slave, it's your line manager. If you're a startup it's whoever gave you capital. Even if you're CxO it's the other board members and investors.
Multitude of customers as a “boss” is a much different situation than having one boss. So much that the analogy breaks up.
A customer firing you might affect 2% of your income. A real boss firing you will cut 100% of your income.
Also, if you are the founder and CEO of a startup you have to answer to the board and investors, but there is much less power imbalance. Sometimes a CEO being fired is financially better than continuing to work. Think of the founder of WeWork.
“You always have a boss” is a bland phrase that doesn’t account for all the very important nuances of the matter.
Definitely not an “illusion”. There are very practical differences between the different types of bosses.
A customer firing you might affect 2% of your income. A real boss firing you will cut 100% of your income.
Also, if you are the founder and CEO of a startup you have to answer to the board and investors, but there is much less power imbalance. Sometimes a CEO being fired is financially better than continuing to work. Think of the founder of WeWork.
“You always have a boss” is a bland phrase that doesn’t account for all the very important nuances of the matter.
Definitely not an “illusion”. There are very practical differences between the different types of bosses.
The difference is that some bosses are more easy to say no to than others.
The real ease of saying no to bosses of any kind comes from financial security, no matter its origin. There are certainly plenty of small business owners who are struggling enough that they can barely afford to so "no" to any customer/ Conversely, there are plenty of employees who manage to tell their line manager "no" just fine. Whether you can afford to do so does not depends on the type of boss but on the ease with which you can bear the repercussions of doing so.
In a typical employment scenario, your line manager can cut off 100% of your revenue.
In an ideal SaaS scenario, your customer can cut off a tiny percentage of your revenue.
In an ideal SaaS scenario, your customer can cut off a tiny percentage of your revenue.
Comparing "typical" vs "ideal" is always going to tip in the direction of the "ideal" case.
There are plenty of companies, SaaS or otherwise, in which a single "whale" customer makes up so much revenue that losing them would instantly make the company unprofitable. Similarly there are plenty of employees who can handle being fired perfectly well, financially speaking.
There are plenty of companies, SaaS or otherwise, in which a single "whale" customer makes up so much revenue that losing them would instantly make the company unprofitable. Similarly there are plenty of employees who can handle being fired perfectly well, financially speaking.
If your SaaS can be killed by a single customer leaving, then you don't have a SaaS; you have a boss for whom you are developing bespoke software.
Thinkpads are not cheap hardware.
If you’ve got a MacBook Pro budget you can buy 2 prev gen Thinkpads. Have the 2nd as a backup. I have a 7 year old Thinkpad as a backup and it’s great, more than good enough to last while main laptop is fixed or replaced. Was even able to upgrade RAM and storage vs everything is soldered on the mainboard like it’s on MacBooks.
Or buy latest gen thinkpad with 3 year warranty and optional on-site repair.
Really depends on what your needs are.
If you’ve got a MacBook Pro budget you can buy 2 prev gen Thinkpads. Have the 2nd as a backup. I have a 7 year old Thinkpad as a backup and it’s great, more than good enough to last while main laptop is fixed or replaced. Was even able to upgrade RAM and storage vs everything is soldered on the mainboard like it’s on MacBooks.
Or buy latest gen thinkpad with 3 year warranty and optional on-site repair.
Really depends on what your needs are.
Cheers for the advice - not aiming for hyper-optimising for cheap hardware, it was just something I built out of personal interest.
His business seems to run on AWS Lambda, which is about as far away from running on cheap (unreliable) hardware as possible? The laptop he mentions is just for working.
I think the parent is also speaking about working, not servers.
The downtime he speaks of is developer downtime. He isn't implying he served from used Thinkpads before, or that he serves off of MacBooks now.
The downtime he speaks of is developer downtime. He isn't implying he served from used Thinkpads before, or that he serves off of MacBooks now.
That's the cheap hardware I'm talking about. What is in your hands is the most important thing of all because without it you can't serve your customers or increase ROI.
> That's the cheap hardware I'm talking about. What is in your hands is the most important thing of all because without it you can't serve your customers or increase ROI.
Yeah, but ... what is in my hands can be replaced in a matter of hours: just go out and get a new laptop at the nearest place!
It's even easier than that, because I primarily use Linux, there are times, in 2023, that I used a Core2 Duo with 2GB of RAM for days at a time on a particular project.
That's about 10m to pull the old laptop out of the cupboard, due `git pull`, and carry on working.
Yeah, but ... what is in my hands can be replaced in a matter of hours: just go out and get a new laptop at the nearest place!
It's even easier than that, because I primarily use Linux, there are times, in 2023, that I used a Core2 Duo with 2GB of RAM for days at a time on a particular project.
That's about 10m to pull the old laptop out of the cupboard, due `git pull`, and carry on working.
I can walk into a shop and have a device I can be productive in 1-2 hours.
I don't think it's a huge deal, just keep your secrets backed up in multiple ways you can retrieve
I don't think it's a huge deal, just keep your secrets backed up in multiple ways you can retrieve
I keep hacking away on Yazz for over 10 years now.... even if there is zero payoff I keep hacking... and that is what hackers do... we are not doing for the money... https://github.com/yazz/yazz
If the purpose of life is any broader than “construct a beautiful fantasy world” then such an approach is a mistake
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wowmaxdavid(1)
Focusing on more than one thing is easily the best way to get nothing done.
Certification: Cisco, Red Hat, AWS, Azure. Pick one and finish it. Then do more. Having basic certifications in all of them sounds like a good idea, but employers don't seem to care. Keep going with whichever one you pick.
Programming languages: don't spend a month on every language you can find, or every framework you can find. It's great to know more than just one language or framework but it's more important to actually make interesting shit in whichever one you pick.
Certification: Cisco, Red Hat, AWS, Azure. Pick one and finish it. Then do more. Having basic certifications in all of them sounds like a good idea, but employers don't seem to care. Keep going with whichever one you pick.
Programming languages: don't spend a month on every language you can find, or every framework you can find. It's great to know more than just one language or framework but it's more important to actually make interesting shit in whichever one you pick.
I'm gonna be that guy and say cerfications are not very helpful if you are building your own SaaS. This is coming from me, a guy who has a few profitable SaaS and has never done a single certification course. Learning by doing, "just in time" learning, and looking up stuff you need in docs / youtube videos when you get stuck seems to work fine.
However, I can definitely agree with the comments on tools / frameworks though. Don't focus on the "newest thing", just work with what you know you are fastest with.
However, I can definitely agree with the comments on tools / frameworks though. Don't focus on the "newest thing", just work with what you know you are fastest with.
I just meant in general personal development - you definitely don't need any certifications to start a SaaS
> Focus is about saying “no”.
Always loved this advice from Steve Jobs, but it can be hard to put into practice in a startup.
From my own experience, I’ve found there is a strong temptation (and also external advice) to try many different things in trying to get traction.
Always loved this advice from Steve Jobs, but it can be hard to put into practice in a startup.
From my own experience, I’ve found there is a strong temptation (and also external advice) to try many different things in trying to get traction.
Love warren buffett’s quote on this topic. "The difference between successful people and really successful people is that really successful people say no to almost everything." But totally agree it’s v difficult to decide what to say no to especially if you’re still honing PMF at a startup.
Said a very successful person who can afford to say no to almost everything.
This is kinda misleading though. If you say no to everything then you literally won’t do anything. That can’t make you money unless you’re a trust fund kid. So obviously you have to say yes to some thing (s). The true essence of the message is that you have to say no to most things but still say yes to that one thing. Good luck with that!
Well the quote says "...to almost everything" not "everything, period".
From my experience meeting highly successful people, or whatever that means, meant deducing most of your interactions should have a straight no from you right away after listening attently, many times no eye contact is made (to make it more objectively perhaps). Then that "no" can be a blunt, almost out of place surprising no at the start "I don't like/see it", "not interested", "can't do that" etc. Which should quickly lead the conversation into solving your objections. Think of it as a figure of speech or a Socratic rhetoric. Once your petty or founded objections are resolved your "real no" may materialize as non-rhetoric. Remember, if you are the one saying yes or no it means you have some, if not all, leverage in that interaction.
Like I said, I've seen this from extremely rich, old money, people with whom I've interacted, so it's anecdotal and take it with a punch of salt. It's easier said than done anyway.
From my experience meeting highly successful people, or whatever that means, meant deducing most of your interactions should have a straight no from you right away after listening attently, many times no eye contact is made (to make it more objectively perhaps). Then that "no" can be a blunt, almost out of place surprising no at the start "I don't like/see it", "not interested", "can't do that" etc. Which should quickly lead the conversation into solving your objections. Think of it as a figure of speech or a Socratic rhetoric. Once your petty or founded objections are resolved your "real no" may materialize as non-rhetoric. Remember, if you are the one saying yes or no it means you have some, if not all, leverage in that interaction.
Like I said, I've seen this from extremely rich, old money, people with whom I've interacted, so it's anecdotal and take it with a punch of salt. It's easier said than done anyway.
There is a big difference between when you are starting out and once you are established. If you have any kind of success then there will be an endless queue of people knocking on your door with "opportunities". You soon learn that most of them are worthless and the sensible thing is to default to rejecting them.
it did say "almost anything".
>That can’t make you money unless you’re a trust fund kid.
Yes, Jobs indeed comes from a very priveledged background that can afford to send their kid to college, have them drop out less than a year later, then send them on a 2 year soul searching journey before founding and crashing 2 startup businesses. And Buffet was a son of a congressman who bought stocks at 11 and land at 15 (I dont think either of those things are even legal o do today at those ages).
They very much were trust fund kids.
>That can’t make you money unless you’re a trust fund kid.
Yes, Jobs indeed comes from a very priveledged background that can afford to send their kid to college, have them drop out less than a year later, then send them on a 2 year soul searching journey before founding and crashing 2 startup businesses. And Buffet was a son of a congressman who bought stocks at 11 and land at 15 (I dont think either of those things are even legal o do today at those ages).
They very much were trust fund kids.
Sure but that is definitely not causal!
Don't say no when you have 0-10 customers lol.
Haha he started with some yes. Saying nos come later. Btw he was lucky his first yeses were bulls-eye.
I worked at a well known B2B some years back that seemed to be successful in part because they allowed the customers to do whatever they wanted AFA custom JavaScript applet work, and then made a killing on support plans dealing with landlines those customer’s devs created.
I think both ways work. Focusing on a single product failed for me, focusing on many small bets worked.
Many small business ideas which can be built quickly are really hard to scale beyond a certain point so having many is the only way to build reasonable income. These small bets also need to require low effort to build and support (eg. think b2c with advertising income or a product with little support costs).
Of course if you can scale up a single business, good for you, you can focus all your energies there and provide a great service.
Many small business ideas which can be built quickly are really hard to scale beyond a certain point so having many is the only way to build reasonable income. These small bets also need to require low effort to build and support (eg. think b2c with advertising income or a product with little support costs).
Of course if you can scale up a single business, good for you, you can focus all your energies there and provide a great service.
I agree both ways work! I'm curious what about the many small bets worked in your case. It would be great to have a framework for "when to focus" and "when to diversify".
Ironic but where do people discuss niches/undersaturated markets/trends/rushes these days?
I've always felt it was a part of the HN spirit with lots of threads, but it's completely died down, maybe because of the economy?
I'm well aware it's luck and lottery, but it's a hobby for many of us anyway, finding a market for our tinkering.
Even Indiehackers seems saturated with a lot of the spam and very little profitable. Like this gibberish wix template making 100k a month on the frontpage https://www.indiehackers.com/product/gibble-ai.
Is the discussion IRL only now, or are we just in a downturn?
I've always felt it was a part of the HN spirit with lots of threads, but it's completely died down, maybe because of the economy?
I'm well aware it's luck and lottery, but it's a hobby for many of us anyway, finding a market for our tinkering.
Even Indiehackers seems saturated with a lot of the spam and very little profitable. Like this gibberish wix template making 100k a month on the frontpage https://www.indiehackers.com/product/gibble-ai.
Is the discussion IRL only now, or are we just in a downturn?
IMO many viable niches are not being discussed online at all.
I’ve recently stumbled on an exciting niche that’s showing a lot of traction. The customers know very well how to use technology but the notion of joining forums / discussing their frustrations anywhere online just doesn’t seem to be something they consider doing. It’s all word of mouth.
My “luck” completely shifted when I stopped trying to find these users online and instead physically walked into a shop and started asking for opinions.
All that to say: I’m coming to feel that niches can more easily be found offline, even for SaaS type businesses. Just walk up and ask a business owner what they find annoying!
I’ve recently stumbled on an exciting niche that’s showing a lot of traction. The customers know very well how to use technology but the notion of joining forums / discussing their frustrations anywhere online just doesn’t seem to be something they consider doing. It’s all word of mouth.
My “luck” completely shifted when I stopped trying to find these users online and instead physically walked into a shop and started asking for opinions.
All that to say: I’m coming to feel that niches can more easily be found offline, even for SaaS type businesses. Just walk up and ask a business owner what they find annoying!
Thanks, this is kind of on the path i'm also on.
A lot of entrepreneurial types are very much running around in the same circles jumping on the same trends and seeing life from the same perspective.
I remember being part of an incubator where there were 4 coffee distribution companies at the same time, pretty funny. Many others were doing online services for other tech people like some ouroboros.
At the same time designers and hacker types are often a bit introverted and isolate themselves with their work.
This creates a very deep disconnect between "the vast majority of people" that aren't very vocal online about problems, even more so the huge elderly demographic, but even zoomers are not tech savvy these days. So there should really be lots of opportunities out there if you don't focus on the tiny hot niches or techy spheres that so many people here target paradoxically.
Ie. combining "techy, nerdy or design skills" while forcing yourself out there is honestly a potential superpower - the other way around is not feasible for most, ie. the sales type learning tech that takes years and years to learn. Off course you can also always team up.
A lot of entrepreneurial types are very much running around in the same circles jumping on the same trends and seeing life from the same perspective.
I remember being part of an incubator where there were 4 coffee distribution companies at the same time, pretty funny. Many others were doing online services for other tech people like some ouroboros.
At the same time designers and hacker types are often a bit introverted and isolate themselves with their work.
This creates a very deep disconnect between "the vast majority of people" that aren't very vocal online about problems, even more so the huge elderly demographic, but even zoomers are not tech savvy these days. So there should really be lots of opportunities out there if you don't focus on the tiny hot niches or techy spheres that so many people here target paradoxically.
Ie. combining "techy, nerdy or design skills" while forcing yourself out there is honestly a potential superpower - the other way around is not feasible for most, ie. the sales type learning tech that takes years and years to learn. Off course you can also always team up.
Fully agreed on all counts!
> ...but even zoomers are not tech savvy these days.
Though I would actually challenge this. The idea I'm (slowly) building out deals with owners of a small blue collar type business.
These people aren't "tech savvy" in that they're not tech nerds. They don't know about coding languages or SPA vs server rendered. They don't give a shit TypeScript vs Python vs Go vs Kotlin.
But they absolutely know how to use their phones. They know how to use apps and websites. That's as tech savvy as is needed to build a small business.
They're also working daily with these TERRIBLY outdated systems that were made decades ago and only work on 1 single Windows machine they have sitting somewhere in their shop, covered in grease.
Just show them a responsive web app that addresses their frustrations and they'll be shocked at how much of an insane genius you are. And they won't even ask about the tech, because they don't give a shit. They just want it to work.
IMO this approach is where the next wave of small business SaaS ideas are. YMMV
> ...but even zoomers are not tech savvy these days.
Though I would actually challenge this. The idea I'm (slowly) building out deals with owners of a small blue collar type business.
These people aren't "tech savvy" in that they're not tech nerds. They don't know about coding languages or SPA vs server rendered. They don't give a shit TypeScript vs Python vs Go vs Kotlin.
But they absolutely know how to use their phones. They know how to use apps and websites. That's as tech savvy as is needed to build a small business.
They're also working daily with these TERRIBLY outdated systems that were made decades ago and only work on 1 single Windows machine they have sitting somewhere in their shop, covered in grease.
Just show them a responsive web app that addresses their frustrations and they'll be shocked at how much of an insane genius you are. And they won't even ask about the tech, because they don't give a shit. They just want it to work.
IMO this approach is where the next wave of small business SaaS ideas are. YMMV
I kind of think it is worth smashing out a few quick ideas to “get it out your system”, and the process of being in motion makes you spot more opportunities.
Thus you may be “selling shovels” - your customers are software devs etc. Since the problems you face building are the problems you aim to solve.
This is something you can’t get at your day job unless it is a true startup, est. 2023 because they are probably doing things the old way and a very peculiar way to boot :-). The work problem is usually solved by convincing the team to do something less dumb :-) rather than another SaaS sub.
Thus you may be “selling shovels” - your customers are software devs etc. Since the problems you face building are the problems you aim to solve.
This is something you can’t get at your day job unless it is a true startup, est. 2023 because they are probably doing things the old way and a very peculiar way to boot :-). The work problem is usually solved by convincing the team to do something less dumb :-) rather than another SaaS sub.
FYI your OnlineOrNot site seems to have some typos which are probably scaring away some customers.
> Monitoring thats simple, effective, and lets you sleep a bit better at night.
> Check as often as every 30 seconds, and catch the issues take your website down for less than a minute.
> Monitoring thats simple, effective, and lets you sleep a bit better at night.
> Check as often as every 30 seconds, and catch the issues take your website down for less than a minute.
Good catch, thanks
It's important to learn to pivot as well. I've had a website that only really started getting any traction once I built a facebook group around it. Being unable to monetize on facebook left a bad taste in my mouth, with a little bit of anger as well. Why shouldn't I be able to profit off a near 1M member group I spent years building?
So I've pivoted again. I've watched what works within the group, what the members want, and my current focus is implementing a completely new platform OFF facebook that allows me to provide the same features but without Facebook's limitations.
Focus on a single product or feature yes, to start, but don't give up too early on your dreams.
So I've pivoted again. I've watched what works within the group, what the members want, and my current focus is implementing a completely new platform OFF facebook that allows me to provide the same features but without Facebook's limitations.
Focus on a single product or feature yes, to start, but don't give up too early on your dreams.
Just read that human memory isn't as reliable as a git commit, and it's all about 'read-and-update' rather than 'write-once'. Makes me think twice about how I 'commit' things to memory and rely on 'aha moments' for debugging code. Maybe stepping away from the screen is the best git push for the brain!
Congratulations and good luck for 2024!
> Turns out they got fed up with their existing service, remembered my pitch, and checked out what I built since.
Marketing and selling pay off. The sad part is, you never know when.
> Turns out they got fed up with their existing service, remembered my pitch, and checked out what I built since.
Marketing and selling pay off. The sad part is, you never know when.
I worked 11 years on https://www.uxwizz.com, I still struggle earning enough from it to sustain myself.
As much as I enjoy linux.. it's just a real pain to use daily for work.
Hackintosh a T480 and it's the best of both worlds.
Hackintosh a T480 and it's the best of both worlds.
You found it a pain maybe, there are plenty of us that find it less of a pain than macOS (or, [shudders], Windows). I hear about plenty of grief using macOS from people who do use it and like it (and simultaneously love to talk about what a pain Linux supposedly is).
What is so shuddery about windows?
I run windows + WSL as my main for years, and it's just as stable as my mac.
I was thinking of 'pure' Windows (including cygwin, mingw, gitpython etc. things I vaguely recall) - though I have struggled with and given up installing and using WSL in the past after I thought perhaps it would be fine with that.
Basically my main annoyances with macOS are window management & the way settings/preferences work and are stored. Windows is just worse in that sense to me I suppose.
Basically my main annoyances with macOS are window management & the way settings/preferences work and are stored. Windows is just worse in that sense to me I suppose.
KDE is mature enough to be useable and has tons of extra features I miss when I'm on Mac.
I try to setup a system with i3 or sway every once and then but then I always end up back on KDE eventually.
I do miss good window tiling though!
I try to setup a system with i3 or sway every once and then but then I always end up back on KDE eventually.
I do miss good window tiling though!
I've played with a bunch of hackintosh setups and these days just stick with M1 Macbook Airs. They are incredibly capable and silent machines.
Can you elaborate? I've been using Linux for work for 4 years and I'm an Azure consultant.
Thought this was the dude making the remote control hardware.. very similar
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It works for the influencers because their audience is big enough, but for everyone else it’s very unlikely to work and they will just pay for the courses and boilerplates the influencers are shilling.
Most things that create significant sustained value will take a lot of time.
It’s sad to read the blog posts of people spending so much time building crappy products no one will ever use, and still trying to sell you on their latest idea.
It’s sad that this is what indie hacking has become.