Tesla Makes It Harder for Investors to Ignore Its Problems(wsj.com)
wsj.com
Tesla Makes It Harder for Investors to Ignore Its Problems
https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/tesla-makes-it-harder-for-investors-to-ignore-its-problems-511a2c40
77 comments
I disagree completely. Once you commit to a very well understood market like consumer vehicles, your growth potential is going to be much more grounded in reality, which means TSLA goes down, which means Tesla has less to work with.
Secondly that is really not where their strength lies. Car manufacturing is a fairly competitive market so any innovations they can came up with will only result in a very temporary lead.
Plus all the talent they recruited would be wasted if they were just building slightly up market EVs.
I could see Tesla branching out in many sectors and become something like the new Samsung/Siemens/Mitsubishi...etc.
I could see Tesla branching out in many sectors and become something like the new Samsung/Siemens/Mitsubishi...etc.
Yeah Tesla totally doesn’t need to spin off its AI and let Musk become further distracted. It’s fine to be dabbling in all these things because it’s actually a cohesive vision that’ll come together eventually. Like he said on the call yesterday, the cars are just robots with wheels, and the robots without wheels are coming soon. Would just be good to have more focus from Elon, and more growth in general which seems like it will be coming lest their competitors get the better of them.
>Like he said on the call yesterday, the cars are just robots with wheels
Yes, Elon says that. What do your eyes tell you? My tell me they are just cars.
Yes, Elon says that. What do your eyes tell you? My tell me they are just cars.
Kind of like how in 2021 Elon was telling the public on earnings calls that Level 5 FSD would be ready within a year, while the person in charge of Autopilot software and other executives were telling regulators that wasn’t possible. Three years later…
>I could see Tesla branching out in many sectors and become something like the new Samsung/Siemens/Mitsubishi...etc.
I guess that's the idea, but is it reality? They are starting to install a few batteries (Tesla Energy), which isn't far from their core business. But it's still a tiny part of their revenue. What else?
I guess that's the idea, but is it reality? They are starting to install a few batteries (Tesla Energy), which isn't far from their core business. But it's still a tiny part of their revenue. What else?
The energy thing is a weird talking point, because energy is _so_ commodified; if anything you'd expect an energy company to have a lower P/E than a car manufacturer.
> I could see Tesla branching out in many sectors and become something like the new Samsung/Siemens/Mitsubishi
But that's almost the same thing - Mitsubishi nuclear, Nikon, and the car company etc. are run as individual companies under the same holding family.
If your going to make cars you need to try to make cars people want as well as you can or customers will buy elsewhere (like BYD in Asia)
But that's almost the same thing - Mitsubishi nuclear, Nikon, and the car company etc. are run as individual companies under the same holding family.
If your going to make cars you need to try to make cars people want as well as you can or customers will buy elsewhere (like BYD in Asia)
The thing is the moment they admit they are just a car company their stock will start to get valued like a car company.
> the company would do a lot better.
The _company_ probably would, but the share price might not.
The _company_ probably would, but the share price might not.
All the issues that come up about Tesla supposedly needing to build better cars come from people who don't own them. Everybody I know with one loves it. And the data backs this up. https://www.wardsauto.com/industry-news/brand-loyalty-weak-a...
I really love my $niche_tech_doodad. That doesn't mean everyone is going to like it.
It isn't enough to say that current customers love it, but how many potential customers will
It isn't enough to say that current customers love it, but how many potential customers will
They sold almost 2 million cars in 2023. It's not a niche thing. Furthermore there is a clear path to higher demand in building out the charger network, an area where they are already in the lead. That's what is keeping me from buying one now.
And no, not everyone, or even most people, are going to like it or buy it, but that is true about every make and model of car ever made.
And no, not everyone, or even most people, are going to like it or buy it, but that is true about every make and model of car ever made.
This post is in relation to the Tesla warning that its rate of expansion will be “notably lower” this year and the recent price cuts they've made to keep sales going.
In relation to that, "building better cars" means building cars that sell more - either having the characteristics/features that people want and are willing to pay for or making them cheaper.
In relation to that, "building better cars" means building cars that sell more - either having the characteristics/features that people want and are willing to pay for or making them cheaper.
The data seems to be "only from the first four months of 2023", and Tesla seems to only fare best in the luxury segment.
So they are competing in the luxury segment even though 90% of their sales are not luxury cars?
Tesla is scaling up very well actually
https://www.statista.com/statistics/502208/tesla-quarterly-v...
https://www.statista.com/statistics/502208/tesla-quarterly-v...
Why would they do that? Each of those industries is potentially worth many billions. As a car company they are doing just fine. The issue with Tesla is not creating more demand, which is fine, but more production capacity to meet it.
Agree. Spinning out the FSD and Optimus teams wouldn't accelerate progress on the new models. Also, they will make more money from humanoids than car robots.
The storage part makes sense. An electric car is essentially a car build around a battery, it is the most important component by far. Remove the "car" part and you are left with a battery storage solution.
For the tech part, it is where the big profit is. That's why its market cap is so much higher than Toyota and close to all the other car manufacturers combined. That's because it is seen as the next Apple, not as just a car company. Whether this idea has merit is debatable, but the markets think it does, and it would be crazy for Tesla to turn down all that money.
For the tech part, it is where the big profit is. That's why its market cap is so much higher than Toyota and close to all the other car manufacturers combined. That's because it is seen as the next Apple, not as just a car company. Whether this idea has merit is debatable, but the markets think it does, and it would be crazy for Tesla to turn down all that money.
Amazon's stock holders are sure happy at this point Amazon didn't accept to be just an online book store.
>Amazon's stock holders are sure happy at this point Amazon didn't accept to be just an online book store.
Sometimes I wonder what possesses a person to always point to single, extremely rare examples as analogies, like this. Tesla is not Amazon. Hocking goods online is not selling cars. Does Amazon really make much money off of anything but AWS?
Sometimes I wonder what possesses a person to always point to single, extremely rare examples as analogies, like this. Tesla is not Amazon. Hocking goods online is not selling cars. Does Amazon really make much money off of anything but AWS?
I read it as tribalism. Internet commentator with investments in Amazon (either via stock or just by choosing to use their products) decides to spend their time unquestioningly promoting a trillion dollar company for free. It's a tale as old as time, unfortunately HN is far from immune to it.
I dislike Amazon and Tesla pretty equally, but then Bezos didn't royally screw up Twitter, so there's that.
I dislike Amazon and Tesla pretty equally, but then Bezos didn't royally screw up Twitter, so there's that.
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Except it’s not a single rare phenomenon, and Tesla has proven itself capable of serious innovation before.
Amazon built AWS to serve the book store and then rented it out to others. The Tesla analogy would be for them to sell their car parts/IP to other companies or build other peoples products in their factories.
The analogy would be their charging infrastructure imo and that's exactly what they have done.
> Amazon built AWS to serve the book store and then rented it out to others.
Except they didn’t. It was always meant to be its own line of business with external customers.
Except they didn’t. It was always meant to be its own line of business with external customers.
Technically your correct - but the e-commerce infrastructure that built Merchant.com and then AWS came out of the technology and services built for and used by the Amazon.com platform
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Too bad Musk on several occasions explicitly said that Tesla is worth absolutely nothing if they don't nail AI/robotics, so the precedent is already set.
This is why X.ai exists.
Also; self-driving cars are just robots on wheels.... that utilize extreme edge "tech" - in the form of advanced machine learning, computer vision, artificial.... problem solving, and generally the associated compute solutions required to engineer a robot that can store enough energy on itself for useful human travel, let alone making the whole damn thing safe, let ALONE making the whole damn thing marketable
Now. What other CAR company does any of that, to any degree?
The "anti-Musk" virtue signal is by far the most annoying one on either side of a stupid arbitrary peanut gallery.
Anyone thinking Elon Musk is anything short of an incredibly intelligent, talented, skilled, and tenacious entrepreneur and - dare I say - engineer - we have the fortune to see in our era. He is controversial but ignore the noise. The actual ground truth is extremely, extremely impressive.
Think all that has happened since just the iPhone with all of his companies, and why, and how. Perhaps that would inform a better opinion than whatever the news cyclists have suggested your way this week.
Also; self-driving cars are just robots on wheels.... that utilize extreme edge "tech" - in the form of advanced machine learning, computer vision, artificial.... problem solving, and generally the associated compute solutions required to engineer a robot that can store enough energy on itself for useful human travel, let alone making the whole damn thing safe, let ALONE making the whole damn thing marketable
Now. What other CAR company does any of that, to any degree?
The "anti-Musk" virtue signal is by far the most annoying one on either side of a stupid arbitrary peanut gallery.
Anyone thinking Elon Musk is anything short of an incredibly intelligent, talented, skilled, and tenacious entrepreneur and - dare I say - engineer - we have the fortune to see in our era. He is controversial but ignore the noise. The actual ground truth is extremely, extremely impressive.
Think all that has happened since just the iPhone with all of his companies, and why, and how. Perhaps that would inform a better opinion than whatever the news cyclists have suggested your way this week.
How is that kool-aid tasting?
Musk has gotten increasingly more outspoken with all of his views and has certainly said some eyebrow raisers but the anti-Musk narrative just makes my eyes roll.
MSM clearly loves writing about him (how else will they fill the void of showing us Trump tweets everyday?) Many people just follow the establishment narrative and billionaires and government officials are the easiest boogeyman before you have to give it some thought.
I will continue to like people for the good things they do and focus my criticism on their actions rather than the person.
MSM clearly loves writing about him (how else will they fill the void of showing us Trump tweets everyday?) Many people just follow the establishment narrative and billionaires and government officials are the easiest boogeyman before you have to give it some thought.
I will continue to like people for the good things they do and focus my criticism on their actions rather than the person.
>Anyone thinking Elon Musk is anything short of an incredibly intelligent, talented, skilled, and tenacious entrepreneur and - dare I say - engineer - we have the fortune to see in our era.
So you need to agree with this or you're pushing an "anti-musk" narrative?
So you need to agree with this or you're pushing an "anti-musk" narrative?
nope but my sentences need an anti-fragment narrative
I can't wrap my head around that people defend one of the richest man alive while just hand-waving away his awful behavior and consequences of his actions.
I can acknowledge that his companies have done some interesting things. But he and his companies also have contributed to suffering and evil. One might see this as simple arithmetic and say that on balance, he has done good. But this is simple arithmetic. You can't just make the suffering you have caused go away by building cool technology that might benefit some other people.
How we can let such concentration of power and wealth go by is beyond me. If you think this story has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention.
I can acknowledge that his companies have done some interesting things. But he and his companies also have contributed to suffering and evil. One might see this as simple arithmetic and say that on balance, he has done good. But this is simple arithmetic. You can't just make the suffering you have caused go away by building cool technology that might benefit some other people.
How we can let such concentration of power and wealth go by is beyond me. If you think this story has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention.
I don't agree that he has caused "suffering and evil.". Worst thing he has done is call some guy a pedo, and a jury found that there weren't even any damages. All he does is say things that I disagree with and I am completely ok with that.
Calling a guy a pedo is not the worst thing he has done.
For example, there are many reports that there's sexism, racism and injuries at his companies, and he doesn't seem to care. He doesn't have to have any regard for the wellbeing of his employees, let alone people who don't work for him.
Buying Twitter and giving far-right people a huge megaphone is definitely not good. He himself amplifying some of these messages and conspiracy theories is also very bad. People suffer directly as consequences of these actions. You might think that a couple of nutty Nazis spewing hate messages on Twitter doesn't have real world consequences, but you'd be very wrong.
For example, there are many reports that there's sexism, racism and injuries at his companies, and he doesn't seem to care. He doesn't have to have any regard for the wellbeing of his employees, let alone people who don't work for him.
Buying Twitter and giving far-right people a huge megaphone is definitely not good. He himself amplifying some of these messages and conspiracy theories is also very bad. People suffer directly as consequences of these actions. You might think that a couple of nutty Nazis spewing hate messages on Twitter doesn't have real world consequences, but you'd be very wrong.
And if those reports were true they would have ended in major lawsuits, but they haven't.
The difference between you and me is that I think people who disagree with me should have equal rights and ability to use internet platforms as I do.
The difference between you and me is that I think people who disagree with me should have equal rights and ability to use internet platforms as I do.
Simple arithmetic can easily be expressed, so could you warrant your claims with some evidence or reasoning?
Are you an anti-capitalist? Or are you privy to a list of Elon's victims, whom continue to suffer injustice while the (implied) maniac roams free; building giant rockets and factory-farming human suffering?
I wonder where the goalposts will be next time!
Are you an anti-capitalist? Or are you privy to a list of Elon's victims, whom continue to suffer injustice while the (implied) maniac roams free; building giant rockets and factory-farming human suffering?
I wonder where the goalposts will be next time!
I'm not anti-capitalist. But there's capitalsm and there's capitalsm. I think how the fruits of capitalism are distributed is insane, and no good can come from so few people having so much more than all the rest combined.
He is definitely one of the Trump vacuum fills in the media's rundown!
Thank the lord he has white knights like you to defend his honor.
Who owns the WSJ again?
What are you implying? That Murdoch has some beef with Musk?
They seem ideologically well aligned to me.
They seem ideologically well aligned to me.
Not that long ago, Tesla was seen as producing electric cars for the hippy-dippy set -- with a side business in solar panels.
Musk appears to have changed his ideological alliances, but the Wall Street Journal still has beef with electric cars and solar panels. Their editorial page still regularly calls climate change a hoax.
Musk appears to have changed his ideological alliances, but the Wall Street Journal still has beef with electric cars and solar panels. Their editorial page still regularly calls climate change a hoax.
Also James Murdoch (son of Rupert) is on the Tesla Board of Directors. WSJ is playing it down the middle, like they always do.
Dow Jones & Company Dow Jones & Company, a New York City-based financial publisher, and owner of the Wall Street Journal, MarketWatch and Barron's. News Corp Australia, an Australian newspaper and magazine publisher, owns 65% of pay-TV provider Foxtel (which owns Fox Sports Australia) and REA Group.
I hate EVs with passion, but Tesla is the only EV manufacturer without major quality issues (it randomly explodes far less often).
How can you hate a technology with a passion? Sure, EVs provide some issues today but genuinely curious how someone with any hint of intellectual curiosity can ‘hate’ a technology.
Perhaps the hate the culture or the messaging around the technology right now, but ‘hating EVs with a passion’ seems weird.
Perhaps the hate the culture or the messaging around the technology right now, but ‘hating EVs with a passion’ seems weird.
Why would you "hate" anything like an EV?
Just don't buy one.
Just don't buy one.
I have EV (electric bike). I would also like to buy small electric car for driving around city.
I hate 2 ton luxury monsters that require 100 000 watts for charging.
I hate 2 ton luxury monsters that require 100 000 watts for charging.
Mine requires 7,000 watts of wind power to charge overnight. It can take 250,000 watts, but that’s rare.
Your hate is so strong it is manifesting in fake facts and gossip.
Citation, as they say, fucking needed.
Chinese EVs are not allowed in Europe for safety reasons. Audi, Jaguar, GM, Kia... had recalls due to battery fire risks.
It is just my observation, but I think Tesla is like 5 years ahead when it comes to battery safety.
It is just my observation, but I think Tesla is like 5 years ahead when it comes to battery safety.
> Chinese EVs are not allowed in Europe for safety reasons
Eh? The best-selling EV brand for the last few months in Germany has been BYD.
Eh? The best-selling EV brand for the last few months in Germany has been BYD.
Got any sources for that?
I'm seeing a lot about security concerns (i.e. the usual China/surveillance thing), but not a lot about battery safety, apart from scooter batteries. (China-specific concerns that is, beyond the general EV battery concerns).
I'm seeing a lot about security concerns (i.e. the usual China/surveillance thing), but not a lot about battery safety, apart from scooter batteries. (China-specific concerns that is, beyond the general EV battery concerns).
Chinese EVs are not allowed in Europe for safety reasons.
Europe is full of Chinese EVs. I see MG and BYD cars all the time, with Nio starting to make inroads. Plus of of course Polestar (which may or may not be a Chinese EV depending on how you define things)
Europe is full of Chinese EVs. I see MG and BYD cars all the time, with Nio starting to make inroads. Plus of of course Polestar (which may or may not be a Chinese EV depending on how you define things)
> Chinese EVs are not allowed in Europe for safety reasons
Well, I better tell my neighbour who has his MG4 parked in his driveway this precise moment!
Well, I better tell my neighbour who has his MG4 parked in his driveway this precise moment!
Are you sure about that?
https://www.zeekr.eu/
https://www.byd.com/eu
https://www.zeekr.eu/
https://www.byd.com/eu
Indeed - more specifically https://bydeurope.com/byd-europe
After over 20 years of development, BYD has grown from a brand that has never been known in Europe to a compelling new energy vehicle industry leader. Thanks to the efforts of the European branch, BYD's pure electric buses have already been sold in more than 20 countries and in over 100 major European cities including Amsterdam (the Netherlands), London (the UK), Ankara (Turkey), Madrid (Spain), and Turin (Italy).
Besides that, BYD has one electric bus factory in Europe which is located in Komarom, Hungary.
One idea - put the AI tech in a new company (with a contract to provide Tesla with FSD if they ever develop it), so Musk can play with AGI and androids on his day off and give him half the shares if Tesla sales increase.