Seattle ordinance intended to help app delivery workers is 'hurting' them(king5.com)
king5.com
Seattle ordinance intended to help app delivery workers is 'hurting' them
https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/seattle-ordinance-intended-app-delivery-workers-hurting-them/281-9516c79c-3161-41f3-a662-798b9db16d3f
123 comments
You can pretty assuredly assume that, when you increase the price, demand goes down.
"In good faith" or "with good intentions" mean the same.
Isn't every referendum system plagued with that problem. Want a second opinion? Ask any Oregonian!
The alternative is to have elected officials write and pass laws. But they're elected because of popularity, not legal prowess. "I could drink a beer with them" is almost never "they are clearly best qualified to write the rules by which we all live."
As Churchill never said (but not originally), "the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried."
Isn't every referendum system plagued with that problem. Want a second opinion? Ask any Oregonian!
The alternative is to have elected officials write and pass laws. But they're elected because of popularity, not legal prowess. "I could drink a beer with them" is almost never "they are clearly best qualified to write the rules by which we all live."
As Churchill never said (but not originally), "the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried."
Bastiat's "seen and unseen".
There is no world in which you get food delivered to your door whenever you want for ~$0 extra while the person delivering it makes $20/hr + benefits, healthcare, vacation. It simply doesn't make mathematical sense. The possibilities are (1) you pay a lot, (2) drivers get paid nothing, (3) the whole thing is subsidized by VCs, or (4) the service doesn't exist at all. With option 3 taken away and the public at large against 1 or 2, it seems like 4 is what we will be left with.
All depends on the setup. Pizza delivery run by the individual small shop has worked for 50+ years; they pay two cooks and two drivers and a waiter and feed hundreds of people a night while earning just fine. A single place to order all food from all restaurants at any point? Well something needs to give...
Alternatively it's simply time for people to learn to cook simple foods again, a pasta with alfredo sauce, fried potatoes with eggs and a salad, or a spinach quiche (with a 1€ supermarket crust) are all quicker to make myself than I get through any app's ordering process (ignoring here the waiting time for both processes to finish).
Alternatively it's simply time for people to learn to cook simple foods again, a pasta with alfredo sauce, fried potatoes with eggs and a salad, or a spinach quiche (with a 1€ supermarket crust) are all quicker to make myself than I get through any app's ordering process (ignoring here the waiting time for both processes to finish).
It only "worked" because pizza delivery drivers had to bring their own vehicles, made below minimum wage and were working for tips (AKA exactly what we don't tolerate today).
When I delivered pizzas for a large US chain in the 90s, I got paid $5.25/hr when the minimum wage was $5.15/hr, plus I got tips and I also got "wear & tear" of $1.50 per run. Most of the time I made more in tips than I did in pay. When I started I did not have a vehicle and had to use my boss' vehicle but I was able to save up enough to buy a new vehicle after the 1st year of doing it.
It worked well as a part-time job for me at the time because I had no rent to pay and very few other regular expenses.
I don't think the same would be true today.
It worked well as a part-time job for me at the time because I had no rent to pay and very few other regular expenses.
I don't think the same would be true today.
Just over 50 years ago, I delivered chicken and pizza for place in the Denver suburbs. I made minimum wage, and I used the restaurant's vehicle.
It is possible that this was feasible for the owners only because it hadn't occurred to pizza shops en masse that it was possible to get the drivers to provide their own cars. But this was before I ever saw thermal sleeves for pizza boxes. The food was kept warm by a sheet metal contraption in the back seat, with sterno as the heat source, something it would have been awkward to be putting into and pulling out of civilian cars.
It is possible that this was feasible for the owners only because it hadn't occurred to pizza shops en masse that it was possible to get the drivers to provide their own cars. But this was before I ever saw thermal sleeves for pizza boxes. The food was kept warm by a sheet metal contraption in the back seat, with sterno as the heat source, something it would have been awkward to be putting into and pulling out of civilian cars.
Does that mean there are no more pizzerias that offer delivery in Seattle? I don't live in the region and I genuinely don't know.
I lived in north Seattle and my favorite pizza place to order from still used this model (had their own delivery drivers). Doing a quick check and it seems like they still do. It wasn’t overly expensive and they’ve been in business for a long time. So I feel like this is still a thing?
This only happened a few weeks ago so no one really knows how it will shake out.
That being said— nothing seems to have changed with regard to pizza places offering direct delivery. The changes on “the apps” are very noticeable but direct ordering seems normal.
I should note this is based on almost completing the order flow, I’m not so dedicated to data gathering that I ordered a bunch of food to test this.
That being said— nothing seems to have changed with regard to pizza places offering direct delivery. The changes on “the apps” are very noticeable but direct ordering seems normal.
I should note this is based on almost completing the order flow, I’m not so dedicated to data gathering that I ordered a bunch of food to test this.
There are, but at e.g. Dominos the delivery fee can be half the original price of the pizza.
That says more about Domino's food quality than the delivery fee.
Full disclosure: I worked at Domino's many decades ago and I ordered pizza in Seattle for over 20 years.
Full disclosure: I worked at Domino's many decades ago and I ordered pizza in Seattle for over 20 years.
Not sure about Seattle but in my area they have all moved over to using Doordash & co for delivery.
And the point behind all those "apps" is that the actual workers get paid peanuts, wear and tear on their vehicle, likely defrauding insurance by doing commercial driving on residential insurance, and getting paid LESS than the total cost to do the job.
And Im sure this ordinance is "hurting gig workers". Well, so is working the fucking gig jobs, but that hurt comes 'down the road' with much more wear and tear on the vehicle, higher incidence of wrecks, no workers compensation, pay double tax for "self employed".
But those billionaire gig companies are doing the rake JUST FINE.
And Im sure this ordinance is "hurting gig workers". Well, so is working the fucking gig jobs, but that hurt comes 'down the road' with much more wear and tear on the vehicle, higher incidence of wrecks, no workers compensation, pay double tax for "self employed".
But those billionaire gig companies are doing the rake JUST FINE.
>But those billionaire gig companies are doing the rake JUST FINE.
Are you kidding? All the investors in this space are taking an absolute bath. You can look this up if you want, but I don't think GrubHub, PostMates, DoorDash or Uber Eats have ever made any money.
At this point in time, the only people getting any value out of these services are the drivers, the consumers and the employees (who are, by and large, doing middle class sales, marketing and software jobs).
Are you kidding? All the investors in this space are taking an absolute bath. You can look this up if you want, but I don't think GrubHub, PostMates, DoorDash or Uber Eats have ever made any money.
At this point in time, the only people getting any value out of these services are the drivers, the consumers and the employees (who are, by and large, doing middle class sales, marketing and software jobs).
Yeah but the VCs got their exit so DoorDash is a success! Growth!
> Are you kidding? All the investors in this space are taking an absolute bath. You can look this up if you want, but I don't think GrubHub, PostMates, DoorDash or Uber Eats have ever made any money.
They never made any money, the same way Titanic, Avengers, Lord of the Rings never made a cent. Those poor studio execs.....
Its a mixture of Hollywood accounting, and an intentional plan to dump all profits back into growing the business all the while undercharging to gain monopoly status. Then, of course once the "gig" is up, they're the only players and can charge high rates and pay pennies cause they're the only mega-delivery place around.
And it doesnt hurt when all the locals fired their drivers and rely on said gig companies.
They never made any money, the same way Titanic, Avengers, Lord of the Rings never made a cent. Those poor studio execs.....
Its a mixture of Hollywood accounting, and an intentional plan to dump all profits back into growing the business all the while undercharging to gain monopoly status. Then, of course once the "gig" is up, they're the only players and can charge high rates and pay pennies cause they're the only mega-delivery place around.
And it doesnt hurt when all the locals fired their drivers and rely on said gig companies.
>They never made any money, the same way Titanic, Avengers, Lord of the Rings never made a cent.
No, they never made any money in the old-fashioned sense that their revenues were less than their costs. This is not hard to look up. GrubHub was doing so well last year that it canned 15% of its workforce.
No, they never made any money in the old-fashioned sense that their revenues were less than their costs. This is not hard to look up. GrubHub was doing so well last year that it canned 15% of its workforce.
>getting paid LESS than the total cost to do the job
Why do you assume that those workers are so stupid, as to not be able to calculate whether the job in question is worth their while? Perhaps they, with better insight into their own financials, have decided that you may be incorrect?
Why do you assume that those workers are so stupid, as to not be able to calculate whether the job in question is worth their while? Perhaps they, with better insight into their own financials, have decided that you may be incorrect?
Sometimes, it is stupid.
Other times, its cause the costs are well hidden UNTIL its time to pay them. And the "gig" seems to pay quite well, until it doesn't. The company side has actuaries to assess risk and understand accurate costs, all the way down to the make/model/year/mileage of your car. You, well, dont. Its all about information asymmetry.
Many times, its simple desperation. When there isn't anything else, you do what you can, even though you're being taken advantage of.
Other times, its cause the costs are well hidden UNTIL its time to pay them. And the "gig" seems to pay quite well, until it doesn't. The company side has actuaries to assess risk and understand accurate costs, all the way down to the make/model/year/mileage of your car. You, well, dont. Its all about information asymmetry.
Many times, its simple desperation. When there isn't anything else, you do what you can, even though you're being taken advantage of.
Prepare to learn something new - sometimes people don’t make the wisest financial decisions for themselves. Poor people seem even more affected by this sort of irrational behavior.
Or perhaps they know it's bad long-term, but they're delaying tomorrow to feed themselves today. Sure, they know it'll put more wear on their vehicle, but as long as the breakdown happens in another month or two, well, maybe something else will come along before then.
Some might call this just getting by, some might say this is what climbing the ladder looks like, and some might call this a poverty trap -- the longer you just scrape by, the harder it is to escape.
The debate is about do you call these opportunities or exploitations. It's realistically both, and so you gotta ask yourself how much exploitation are you willing to tolerate before the pizza starts to taste a bit icky? And when it does, how much are you willing to pay to make that pizza conflict-free?
Some might call this just getting by, some might say this is what climbing the ladder looks like, and some might call this a poverty trap -- the longer you just scrape by, the harder it is to escape.
The debate is about do you call these opportunities or exploitations. It's realistically both, and so you gotta ask yourself how much exploitation are you willing to tolerate before the pizza starts to taste a bit icky? And when it does, how much are you willing to pay to make that pizza conflict-free?
I don't so much mind paying extra to the person doing the delivery, I get frustrated when I have no insight (intentionally) into how much of the fees and surcharges (or even tips) are supporting delivery driver salary and benefits versus being a convenient way for a company that mostly exists virtually to increase their fees without it being obvious.
I will absolutely call a place and order on the phone if it avoids grubhub extracting an extra $10 in fees from both sides of the transaction... and give the delivery driver the difference in tips. But yeah, less frequently than I did when VCs were subsidizing the cost.
I will absolutely call a place and order on the phone if it avoids grubhub extracting an extra $10 in fees from both sides of the transaction... and give the delivery driver the difference in tips. But yeah, less frequently than I did when VCs were subsidizing the cost.
So much this. I'm the asshole if I tip $0, but I have no insight into how much the delivery driver is making. Am I tipping on-top of a full salary? Am I tipping to someone who is paid entirely through tips? No idea. Instead you play the game of guessing how much you're supposed to pay for services.
Either bundle in the driver's payment into the fees entirely, or don't at all. Let's drop this game of having to guess how much to tip to make up for what the company is not paying the drivers.
Either bundle in the driver's payment into the fees entirely, or don't at all. Let's drop this game of having to guess how much to tip to make up for what the company is not paying the drivers.
Or option 5) restaurants pay for their own delivery people which seemed to work just fine (pizza places have been doing it forever (I’m assuming profitably))
Pizza delivery drivers drove their own cars (and paid for maintenance and everything) and replied heavily on tips. So basically the same situation as now, but unlike earlier, it's apparently no longer acceptable.
This. They were basically Uber attached to a single pizza restaurant. A great investment for a manager. Not so good long-term for the employees. Good thing there's a lot of turnover!
The key here is that it's worked for restaurants with historically decent margins (pizza) it likely won't work for most restaurants
In cities like NYC, it worked for vast numbers of restaurants. Anyone who lived in the city before Seamless etc. remembers having masses of restaurant menus with phone numbers for ordering - some were for pick-up only, but most would do local delivery.
NYC is also extremely abnormal because of the density
Also the economics of NYC are very different today then in the 80s and 90s when people remember getting cheap delivery.
(5) automation.
Take the humans out of the delivery business and you get more flexibility on pricing. Self driving cars could do it if you are willing to meet the outside. Drones also, although I think the power costs will never work for air delivery, so it will need to be grounded somehow.
Take the humans out of the delivery business and you get more flexibility on pricing. Self driving cars could do it if you are willing to meet the outside. Drones also, although I think the power costs will never work for air delivery, so it will need to be grounded somehow.
Right; I guess the only reason investor money keeps flowing in here is the need to maintain market position (and the implied flow of data) until automation displaces enough of the people. That's the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
That was Uber’s plan with ride sharing and it didn’t pan out. Delivery just isn’t very viable without automation, humans are simply too expensive to do it, so someone will figure it out or we will make do without.
I suspect it might be easier and less open to litigation to have robots make the food. Or manage the restaurants.
Eventually they will do it all. Human labor keeps becoming more expensive, and restaurants will need to automate more and more to survive.
1 and 4 are the only viable options, full stop. If a business cannot sustain itself without piling on debt or abusing its employees, then it simply should not exist.
What we've suddenly discovered is that having servants on-call costs a substantial amount of money.
Which is what all of the gig economy services are - you have always been able to get driven around - they were called limos and chauffeurs. Likewise the wealthy have been having servants fetch their dinner for decades, if not centuries.
With a container ship full of VC money our industry was able to sustain an illusion for some years that servants can be had for cheap. Turns out the basic economics of having servant(s) hasn't been disrupted by technology.
Which is what all of the gig economy services are - you have always been able to get driven around - they were called limos and chauffeurs. Likewise the wealthy have been having servants fetch their dinner for decades, if not centuries.
With a container ship full of VC money our industry was able to sustain an illusion for some years that servants can be had for cheap. Turns out the basic economics of having servant(s) hasn't been disrupted by technology.
>you have always been able to get driven around - they were called limos and chauffeurs
... or taxis, but that's not quite so consistent with the class-war narrative.
... or taxis, but that's not quite so consistent with the class-war narrative.
The class-war narrative is all this has ever been. Seattle, Portland and San Francisco, among others are all falling apart because of this incredibly stupid narrative. I'm not sure how it could get more obvious.
How are Seattle, Portland and San Francisco "falling apart" (outside of the narrative you see on Fox News)?
I've lived in Portland my whole life. It's pretty obvious how the city has changed for the worse in the last couple years. The commercial real estate market particularly reflects this - and many of the policies that created the downturn were completely avoidable if it wasn't for monoculture that's also present in the other cities mentioned. Do you want some kind of point by point with references? I get that it's easy to feel frustrated that places that are ostensibly progressive are so dysfunctional - and that it feels better to blame it on moronic news coverage on Fox. I really wish it wasn't the way it seems to actually be here.
(As someone who voted D in 2020 election)
Try standing at an intersection in SF for 5 min with kids without them getting scared. I had to do it unfortunately in SOMA (long story why) and a sketchy guy mostly on drugs scared the hell out of my kids. That is not normal and is what I personally consider "falling apart" - kids should be able to roam around freely in a healthy city.
Try standing at an intersection in SF for 5 min with kids without them getting scared. I had to do it unfortunately in SOMA (long story why) and a sketchy guy mostly on drugs scared the hell out of my kids. That is not normal and is what I personally consider "falling apart" - kids should be able to roam around freely in a healthy city.
Kids? I am a fully-grown adult man and I feel scared in SF.
... and yet there were so many people who wanted to do the job for the existing pay. I'm not in any sense suggesting these were great jobs, but I'm pretty sure people made at least minimum wage (based on how much I tipped and how long deliveries took).
If you took a straw poll, I think you'd find a lot of drivers in favor of higher pay and not so many in favor of higher pay but zero hours.
If you took a straw poll, I think you'd find a lot of drivers in favor of higher pay and not so many in favor of higher pay but zero hours.
Sure seems like many people would rather destroy low paying jobs and feel better about themselves than acknowledge that there will always be a place for such jobs - especially at the rate we are importing many segments of the world with much lower standards of living. I'm not sure the point is to actually help people for whom something is better than nothing, it's to demonstrate resentment and frustration and a worldview that sees all wage labor as exploitative. If you want the services to fail don't use them and don't work for them, it's simple.
This is also counterbalanced by the idea: "If you work, your basic needs should be absolutely met and with a little bit more."
> I'm not sure the point is to actually help people for whom something is better than nothing, it's to demonstrate resentment and frustration and a worldview that sees all wage labor as exploitative.
The "gig" companies are the ones taking the bulk of the money, and then disbursing pittances and stealing tips. They can definitely pay better.
> I'm not sure the point is to actually help people for whom something is better than nothing, it's to demonstrate resentment and frustration and a worldview that sees all wage labor as exploitative.
The "gig" companies are the ones taking the bulk of the money, and then disbursing pittances and stealing tips. They can definitely pay better.
>"If you work, your basic needs should be absolutely met and with a little bit more."
So, how many hours do I need to work before this logic kicks in? Presumably not just one per week, right? Does my employer get the right to pay me less because my needs are met in part by an inheritance or because I share the rent with someone else who works? At what level of granularity does the basic cost of living get decided? i.e. if I flip burgers at the McDonald's at the corner of Chambers and Greenwich (in the middle of TriBeCa) does that mean I should be paid enough to live there too?
The basic ideal of dignity of work is fine, you just can't get there from here.
So, how many hours do I need to work before this logic kicks in? Presumably not just one per week, right? Does my employer get the right to pay me less because my needs are met in part by an inheritance or because I share the rent with someone else who works? At what level of granularity does the basic cost of living get decided? i.e. if I flip burgers at the McDonald's at the corner of Chambers and Greenwich (in the middle of TriBeCa) does that mean I should be paid enough to live there too?
The basic ideal of dignity of work is fine, you just can't get there from here.
My heart goes out to everyone relying on these delivery jobs to make ends meet, but it is and always has been an unsustainable market and it’s great that this ordinance is revealing this. The delivery companies do the barest minimum to support their drivers and allow anyone with a vehicle and desperate for income to compete for delivery orders. The article alludes to the problem of too many drivers, which is the bigger issue than customers ordering less because of an additional $5 fee. I wouldn’t be surprised if TFA is only politicizing the ordinance to when people have fewer reasons to order delivery while the numbers of people needing to supplement income goes up (cost of living increasing faster than wages).
> The article alludes to the problem of too many drivers, which is the bigger issue than customers ordering less because of an additional $5 fee.
Reducing the number of drivers may increase the time it takes to deliver food, making it colder.
I don't fundamentally think "get delivery from anywhere" can exist at this price point without somebody getting screwed.
Reducing the number of drivers may increase the time it takes to deliver food, making it colder.
I don't fundamentally think "get delivery from anywhere" can exist at this price point without somebody getting screwed.
"ends meet" what a delightful veganization, as if the two ends --your expenses and income-- just barely meet. I used to literally buy the packaged ends of meat and cheese, which grocers sell for less because they're closer to expiry date.
I was so surprised by your comment that I had to check that I hadn't been using the wrong word all this time! However, I don't think it's a veganisation, as you put it.
Usage of "ends meet" dates back to at least the 17th century with uncertain origin, but possibly to do with ropes or accounting. "ends meat" seems to be a more modern derivation, sometimes given as a folk etymology for the former.
https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/66831/origin-of-...
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/make_ends_meet
https://www.oed.com/search/advanced/Quotations?textTermText0...
Usage of "ends meet" dates back to at least the 17th century with uncertain origin, but possibly to do with ropes or accounting. "ends meat" seems to be a more modern derivation, sometimes given as a folk etymology for the former.
https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/66831/origin-of-...
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/make_ends_meet
https://www.oed.com/search/advanced/Quotations?textTermText0...
Thanks, I'm just as surprised!
It's always been "ends meet". You've been using it wrong.
Note that the various platforms have changed their UI to discourage tips, and my impression is that they are doing their best to communicate the reason for the price increase, and it's not possible to determine whether the increased fees are actually in proportion to the increased cost (if any).
I can't speak to how any of these companies think about this ordinance, but I do think they have an incentive to ensure that this ordinance fails, and a great deal of influence on its success.
I can't speak to how any of these companies think about this ordinance, but I do think they have an incentive to ensure that this ordinance fails, and a great deal of influence on its success.
In NYC, the UI for GrubHub used to default to (I think?) something like a 20% tip; now it defaults to 0% and there's some kind of explanatory text about this.
I think you missed the reasoning though - they don't want customers to feel obliged to tip 20% on top of the increased prices, which they'll do less often or stop doing entirely. It's more like "you don't need to tip because a living wage is baked into the price now".
I think you missed the reasoning though - they don't want customers to feel obliged to tip 20% on top of the increased prices, which they'll do less often or stop doing entirely. It's more like "you don't need to tip because a living wage is baked into the price now".
> you don't need to tip because a living wage is baked into the price now
That sounds like a really good change! Tipping is such an archaic mess.
That sounds like a really good change! Tipping is such an archaic mess.
>That sounds like a really good change! Tipping is such an archaic mess.
The elephant in the room is that the reason we still have tipping for servers in restaurants and bar staff is that it's actually overwhelmingly their preference. There's a lot of complaining about bad pay and the tipped-wage discount on the minimum wage etc. but not actually a lot of support for doing away with tipping.
Part of that is the opportunities that tips give for tax evasion. The IRS reckons that something like 10% of all individual income tax underreporting is due to incorrect reporting of tips: employees are supposed to tell their employers how much they got tipped, and there's really no effective enforcement.
The elephant in the room is that the reason we still have tipping for servers in restaurants and bar staff is that it's actually overwhelmingly their preference. There's a lot of complaining about bad pay and the tipped-wage discount on the minimum wage etc. but not actually a lot of support for doing away with tipping.
Part of that is the opportunities that tips give for tax evasion. The IRS reckons that something like 10% of all individual income tax underreporting is due to incorrect reporting of tips: employees are supposed to tell their employers how much they got tipped, and there's really no effective enforcement.
Tipping via apps is almost impossible to not report to the IRS. Also any tipping via credit cards.
Do you know this from actual personal experience, or just because it seems obvious that the data is there and that it would be trivial to automate?
The employer doesn't really have any incentive, as it's the employee's responsibility to report their tips.
There are lots of places that will tip out servers in cash for card receipts and rely on reporting - of course, yes, the servers have to report it but all the incentives to do the right thing are missing on both sides.
The employer doesn't really have any incentive, as it's the employee's responsibility to report their tips.
There are lots of places that will tip out servers in cash for card receipts and rely on reporting - of course, yes, the servers have to report it but all the incentives to do the right thing are missing on both sides.
My sister worked as a waitress. Credit card tips were delivered to her on her paycheck minus credit card processing fees. I've never heard of a restaurant that would tip out cash for credit card transactions the same day. Now if they did do that, they might have to report those tips that it cashes out on the worker’s W2 along with the employees reported tips
I think it is even more obvious for gig workers whose income are reported via 1099s and their tips are collected by a third party. I'm pretty sure Uber must report tips as general income. Now, it is possible for the rider to give a tip to their Uber driver directly as cash, and that wouldn't be necessarily reported (or to tip their delivery person directly rather than via app).
I think it is even more obvious for gig workers whose income are reported via 1099s and their tips are collected by a third party. I'm pretty sure Uber must report tips as general income. Now, it is possible for the rider to give a tip to their Uber driver directly as cash, and that wouldn't be necessarily reported (or to tip their delivery person directly rather than via app).
That sounds like a really good change! Tipping is such an archaic mess.
It took a hundred years, but all those people in America who griped about tipping when it spread here from Europe turned out to be right.
It took a hundred years, but all those people in America who griped about tipping when it spread here from Europe turned out to be right.
Before the new fees I was only using these services when I had a 50% off coupon. After the new fees it just doesn't make sense outside of being sick or a last minute group event.
It's looking like a gig economy that provides guaranteed solid minimum wages is a lot smaller than what we've had so far. It might be a good thing, though it does feel weird to forcibly be telling people "no, you're not allowed to work like that" when the work is so low commitment.
It's looking like a gig economy that provides guaranteed solid minimum wages is a lot smaller than what we've had so far. It might be a good thing, though it does feel weird to forcibly be telling people "no, you're not allowed to work like that" when the work is so low commitment.
Anecdotally, some factors I've heard that make YoY comparisons questionable:
1. With RTO, folks are more likely to eat out during the week (especially for places in SLU), so weekend demand is probably lower
2. With commutes, folks are more likely to pick up on their way home, so demand for delivery is probably lower
3. With the poor level of service, folks are more likely to pick up in order to ensure that their food is actually edible
King5's post itself notes another potential confounding variable: more drivers.
1. With RTO, folks are more likely to eat out during the week (especially for places in SLU), so weekend demand is probably lower
2. With commutes, folks are more likely to pick up on their way home, so demand for delivery is probably lower
3. With the poor level of service, folks are more likely to pick up in order to ensure that their food is actually edible
King5's post itself notes another potential confounding variable: more drivers.
To me this just illustrates the uselessness of the "business model". No "gig" worker can make enough money from "gig work" to justify the time and effort, and if a local government forces the venture-backed "founders" behind this lets-create-a-middleman-for-everything "business model" to pay a living wage, then these cretins will just pass on that cost to customers. They will not pay for labor and take on the risk of a real business. The truth is this "business" is nothing without real workers. The "app" is worthless without real people doing real work. And so people just delete the app. It is not worth anything.
The workers are the value. If the "app developers" cannot/will not pay them a competitive wage, then the "business" dies. The ordinance did not backfire on the workers, it backfired on the middleman-based startups. Ultimately their "business" will fail. What did it cost to write an app and to take money from investors. What was risked. Maybe not much. That would explain the proliferation of these bogus middleman "businesses".
The workers are the value. If the "app developers" cannot/will not pay them a competitive wage, then the "business" dies. The ordinance did not backfire on the workers, it backfired on the middleman-based startups. Ultimately their "business" will fail. What did it cost to write an app and to take money from investors. What was risked. Maybe not much. That would explain the proliferation of these bogus middleman "businesses".
Hmm I don't know if the ordinance is the main factor that leads to the decline in demand or just everything is getting too expensive nowadays. In my own experience living in the area, we've stopped ordering food since a few years ago. We also stopped going to restaurants because everything has become so expensive for us. We cook meals at home and our kids bring lunch from home.
Why is that people are surprised when basic economic principals hold true? I’m not saying it’s completely explanatory, but why would anyone be surprised that increasing costs 10-25% would decrease marginal demand or encourage substitution?
Good politics is bad economics; good economics is bad politics.
It becomes good politics when people realize everything is much worse like in Argentina. It's remarkable Seattle, Portland, and SF haven't decisively reached this state yet.
Having lived in all 3 of those cities, I, too, am amazed it hasn't reached that state yet either.
What's worse is that at some point a lot of the restaurants that have made the current iteration of those cities what they are will not be able to weather the economic storm their own cities are putting upon them. Their voters will vote to increase wages arbitrarily, add on fees, regulations, taxes, etc. And then when their pad thai or poke bowl costs $27 for pickup or $38 delivered, they'll just stop patronizing that restaurant - whether out of financial necessity or some misplaced feeling that they are now getting ripped off from the price hike - until it goes out of business. I can't count the times I've heard "<insert restaurant/brewery/coffee shop> is just not worth it anymore." The bigger chains will be able to take the losses until they can absorb the entire market.
There will always be 3 Starbucks and a McDonalds in Times Square.
What's worse is that at some point a lot of the restaurants that have made the current iteration of those cities what they are will not be able to weather the economic storm their own cities are putting upon them. Their voters will vote to increase wages arbitrarily, add on fees, regulations, taxes, etc. And then when their pad thai or poke bowl costs $27 for pickup or $38 delivered, they'll just stop patronizing that restaurant - whether out of financial necessity or some misplaced feeling that they are now getting ripped off from the price hike - until it goes out of business. I can't count the times I've heard "<insert restaurant/brewery/coffee shop> is just not worth it anymore." The bigger chains will be able to take the losses until they can absorb the entire market.
There will always be 3 Starbucks and a McDonalds in Times Square.
We are living high on tech money. If/when a crash comes, it'll all come tumbling down and we'll look like New York City in the '70s.
It's any-party-in-power's job to make sure that doesn't happen, by any means necessary.
It's any-party-in-power's job to make sure that doesn't happen, by any means necessary.
Can confirm from first hand (customer) experience, I was already on the fence about delivery with all the fees (not sure how many were Seattle-specific before this - I know Ubers in Bellevue, just outside of Seattle, were considerably cheaper than in Seattle proper for a while)... after seeing another goddamn $5 fee I canceled DashPass, my orders went from ~once a week to one in 2024 so far, and I won't tip a lot anymore. The real minimum wage is always 0.
I stopped using DoorDash once I saw the big 'every delivery costs an extra $5 now thanks to Seattle' modal on their front page because it's so dishonest. If they really have to jack their fees up that much and it's not a variable cost I can tell they're just trying to manipulate me.
I don't mind fees going up some, and in contrast GrubHub isn't playing games - the fees are just higher now. That's fine if it means the drivers are getting paid more. I noticed that they adjusted the default tip percentages to be lower, so it seems like the actual cost of an order by default probably isn't higher. If the driver earns the same amount in the end (or more) that just means I'm spending less money on the "tip".
EDIT: Thinking about it more, the "their wages have been slashed" phrasing in this article is also deeply dishonest. They weren't wage workers before, and still aren't! They're freelancers who rely on a steady flow of gigs and tips to earn enough every hour. If the flow has slowed then of course they're going to earn less. We can argue that the ordinance caused the flow to slow down but other factors could be at work too, like the apps adjusting recommended tip percentages.
I don't mind fees going up some, and in contrast GrubHub isn't playing games - the fees are just higher now. That's fine if it means the drivers are getting paid more. I noticed that they adjusted the default tip percentages to be lower, so it seems like the actual cost of an order by default probably isn't higher. If the driver earns the same amount in the end (or more) that just means I'm spending less money on the "tip".
EDIT: Thinking about it more, the "their wages have been slashed" phrasing in this article is also deeply dishonest. They weren't wage workers before, and still aren't! They're freelancers who rely on a steady flow of gigs and tips to earn enough every hour. If the flow has slowed then of course they're going to earn less. We can argue that the ordinance caused the flow to slow down but other factors could be at work too, like the apps adjusting recommended tip percentages.
>I stopped using DoorDash once I saw the big 'every delivery costs an extra $5 now thanks to Seattle' modal on their front page because it's so dishonest.
How is that dishonest? DoorDash's costs have risen because of the new law. The first three seconds of the news this discussion is about explicitly mentions the "$5 fee".
>I don't mind fees going up some, and in contrast GrubHub isn't playing games - the fees are just higher now
You no doubt supported the law, just like all other good bien-pensants. You just don't like seeing the consequences clearly spelled out.
How is that dishonest? DoorDash's costs have risen because of the new law. The first three seconds of the news this discussion is about explicitly mentions the "$5 fee".
>I don't mind fees going up some, and in contrast GrubHub isn't playing games - the fees are just higher now
You no doubt supported the law, just like all other good bien-pensants. You just don't like seeing the consequences clearly spelled out.
DD is dishonestly saying "the cost of this new law is $5/order". That's obviously not the case.
GH just actually adjusted prices so that they are not (presumably) losing money. I'm fine with that, and they show me the new fees.
GH just actually adjusted prices so that they are not (presumably) losing money. I'm fine with that, and they show me the new fees.
>DD is dishonestly saying "the cost of this new law is $5/order". That's obviously not the case.
Again, open the article! As I said, in the first three second of the video that starts playing, the reporter says "$5 fee".
>GH just actually adjusted prices so that they are not (presumably) losing money. I'm fine with that, and they show me the new fees.
If you don't understand that GrubHub is doing the exact same thing as DoorDash but just not being up front about it, I don't know what more to say.
Again, open the article! As I said, in the first three second of the video that starts playing, the reporter says "$5 fee".
>GH just actually adjusted prices so that they are not (presumably) losing money. I'm fine with that, and they show me the new fees.
If you don't understand that GrubHub is doing the exact same thing as DoorDash but just not being up front about it, I don't know what more to say.
The article is repeating their dishonest characterization of the law.
DD chose to just add $5 to all orders; that is not what the law requires based on any sources I have found. Here's a quote from one:
> Under this PayUp policy, a pay floor must be met based on “engaged” time and miles spent on the job — from when it’s accepted/started to when it’s completed.
> Minimum compensation: Network companies must pay the greater of
> Minimum per-minute amount of $0.44 and a per-mile amount
> OR
> Minimum per-offer amount of $5
You may see a $5 there - that's the MINIMUM pay for the entire order, and it is an or, not an and. There is no obligation for them to charge an extra $5/order and pass it on to the driver.
In my experience using GrubHub after these changes, they did not raise the cost of all my orders by $5.
DD chose to just add $5 to all orders; that is not what the law requires based on any sources I have found. Here's a quote from one:
> Under this PayUp policy, a pay floor must be met based on “engaged” time and miles spent on the job — from when it’s accepted/started to when it’s completed.
> Minimum compensation: Network companies must pay the greater of
> Minimum per-minute amount of $0.44 and a per-mile amount
> OR
> Minimum per-offer amount of $5
You may see a $5 there - that's the MINIMUM pay for the entire order, and it is an or, not an and. There is no obligation for them to charge an extra $5/order and pass it on to the driver.
In my experience using GrubHub after these changes, they did not raise the cost of all my orders by $5.
>> Minimum per-minute amount of $0.44 and a per-mile amount
Oh, good grief. Think, before you mindlessly quote. A $0.44 per-minute amount means that every 10 minutes = $4.44. (And that's not including whatever is the per-mile amount!) When was the last time a DoorDash order took less than 10 minutes for delivery?
>You may see a $5 there - that's the MINIMUM pay for the entire order, and it is an or, not an and. There is no obligation for them to charge an extra $5/order and pass it on to the driver.
There is also no obligation for DoorDash to not pass the cost on to the customer (not "driver"). To put another way, you are saying that the only correct outcome here is for DoorDash to absorb 100% of the $5 fee, no ifs, ands, or buts.
But this is beside the point because, as I said, you are mindlessly quoting without thinking:
>> Minimum compensation: Network companies must pay the greater of
In other words, the floor for the additional fee is $5, no matter what. If anything, it sounds like DoorDash is doing customers a favor by capping the Seattle-mandated fee addition they pay at $5, with it absorbing any excess amount. Conversely, I bet some GrubHub orders' prices went up by more than $5.
Oh, good grief. Think, before you mindlessly quote. A $0.44 per-minute amount means that every 10 minutes = $4.44. (And that's not including whatever is the per-mile amount!) When was the last time a DoorDash order took less than 10 minutes for delivery?
>You may see a $5 there - that's the MINIMUM pay for the entire order, and it is an or, not an and. There is no obligation for them to charge an extra $5/order and pass it on to the driver.
There is also no obligation for DoorDash to not pass the cost on to the customer (not "driver"). To put another way, you are saying that the only correct outcome here is for DoorDash to absorb 100% of the $5 fee, no ifs, ands, or buts.
But this is beside the point because, as I said, you are mindlessly quoting without thinking:
>> Minimum compensation: Network companies must pay the greater of
In other words, the floor for the additional fee is $5, no matter what. If anything, it sounds like DoorDash is doing customers a favor by capping the Seattle-mandated fee addition they pay at $5, with it absorbing any excess amount. Conversely, I bet some GrubHub orders' prices went up by more than $5.
Not really about the framing of these policies. What it really should be is 'new rules to limit exploitation of workers reduces exploitation'. What the US has too much of, is providing people just enough support that you have legions of people lining up for jobs that are effectively subsidized by tax payers. These services should not really exist at the current price point and scale.
> it really should be is 'new rules to limit exploitation of workers reduces exploitation'
The transition is predictably painful. A foreseeable effect of raising labour costs in one part of the market, and an elastic one at that, is lower employment there. Passing a law like this without any support for the workers whose income you're destroying is hard to position as reducing exploitation. If anything, it's exploiting them as symbols, a modern White Man's Burden by Seattle's electeds.
The transition is predictably painful. A foreseeable effect of raising labour costs in one part of the market, and an elastic one at that, is lower employment there. Passing a law like this without any support for the workers whose income you're destroying is hard to position as reducing exploitation. If anything, it's exploiting them as symbols, a modern White Man's Burden by Seattle's electeds.
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The flipside of those who may go "aha, price controls on labor don't work" are
* Changes in demand unrelated to the fee
* (as noted in the article) A flood of labor supply since people may have thought Doordashing was a good job due tothe bill
* A change in price making people realize they don't need to waste money on delivery
* People dumping Doordash because they're assholes for passing costs onto the customer
As we've seen from megacorps in the past, they will 100% sabotage local markets in order to make workers' rights or attempts at taxation fail.
(edit to reorder)
* Changes in demand unrelated to the fee
* (as noted in the article) A flood of labor supply since people may have thought Doordashing was a good job due tothe bill
* A change in price making people realize they don't need to waste money on delivery
* People dumping Doordash because they're assholes for passing costs onto the customer
As we've seen from megacorps in the past, they will 100% sabotage local markets in order to make workers' rights or attempts at taxation fail.
(edit to reorder)
I don't think there's anything the government can do to improve the marketplace for gig workers. This is one time I think the government needs to stay out of it. Let the market decide.
When people claim that minimum wage laws don't hurt workers, there's an implicit assumption that the jobs would always exist anyway, and costs will just be passed on.
Sometimes that may be true. Other times, you're just getting rid of a certain class of jobs.
Sometimes that may be true. Other times, you're just getting rid of a certain class of jobs.
I cannot read the original article (seems to be blocked in the EU? I get access denied), but since this is a general comment:
If the only reason that a job could exist was that people had another job and/or got government subsidy this means the job shouldn't exist - it's not societies' job to support bad companies.
So, if they "just go away" that's okay. Give the people who don't have a job now government support and training to get a better job. At least the companies who tried to get rich by exploiting people stop existing then.
If the only reason that a job could exist was that people had another job and/or got government subsidy this means the job shouldn't exist - it's not societies' job to support bad companies.
So, if they "just go away" that's okay. Give the people who don't have a job now government support and training to get a better job. At least the companies who tried to get rich by exploiting people stop existing then.
You say "it's not societies' job to support bad companies" and " Give the people who don't have a job now government support and training to get a better job".
Do you not see the contradictions? Who is paying for that "government" support and training? Taxpayers have money for taxes because they work for a profit - else they cease to exist, or to appease the economically illiterate the politicians run societies into such debt that everyone (including those dastardly "exploitive companies") ceases to exist.
Do you not see the contradictions? Who is paying for that "government" support and training? Taxpayers have money for taxes because they work for a profit - else they cease to exist, or to appease the economically illiterate the politicians run societies into such debt that everyone (including those dastardly "exploitive companies") ceases to exist.
It's a government handout either way, but the former goes on indefinitely for an individual (while also putting downward pressure on other workers), while the latter (ideally) increases earning potential - improving the workers lot, the tax base for the government, and the workers ability to patronise other local businesses
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When I visit Hyderabad I'm reminded how nice it is to have an underclass, provided you are not a member of that class. Many services are practically free compared to the US.
Not sure I think we should create that here, though.
Edit: Wow, judging from downvotes it seems there are some folks here on HN that would like that underclass! Interesting!
Not sure I think we should create that here, though.
Edit: Wow, judging from downvotes it seems there are some folks here on HN that would like that underclass! Interesting!
Minimum wages serve a political purpose, but they also force automation on an economy. One can study various countries which had very cheap labor pre-1900, and see how far behind they got (e.g. China.)
What would the global economy look like without cheap labor? One can only guess.
What would the global economy look like without cheap labor? One can only guess.
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Maybe you should ask one of these gig workers if they feel better off now than before? Instead of making spurious comparisons to Hyderabad.
I've seen enough stories about how gig workers struggle to actually turn a profit thanks to all the costs that get offloaded onto them, so I don't know that 'getting rid of a certain class of jobs' is automatically a bad thing.
>how gig workers struggle to actually turn a profit thanks to all the costs that get offloaded onto them,
Well, OK, I guess they could not do that then? McDonalds is hiring in NYC and paying a minimum of $16 an hour.
I do feel for people in that situation, but they're just getting greased in the collision between, on the one side, techno-utopian companies that want to bring in automation ASAP to eliminate their jobs and, on the other, big labor that is threatened by the gig-economy model and believes the better outcome is just for the jobs not to exist.
I'm pretty sure that the participants in the gig economy just wanted it to pay a bit better, rather than for it to get annihilated. I guess you find out who your friends really are.
Well, OK, I guess they could not do that then? McDonalds is hiring in NYC and paying a minimum of $16 an hour.
I do feel for people in that situation, but they're just getting greased in the collision between, on the one side, techno-utopian companies that want to bring in automation ASAP to eliminate their jobs and, on the other, big labor that is threatened by the gig-economy model and believes the better outcome is just for the jobs not to exist.
I'm pretty sure that the participants in the gig economy just wanted it to pay a bit better, rather than for it to get annihilated. I guess you find out who your friends really are.
Yeah, that's the tricky part that this seems to come down to.
A decision was made that a slave-wage is undesirable/illegal, so the wage-slave job goes away.
The argument is about do you believe people should decide for themselves that the wage-slave job is better than nothing, or should the government dictate that we don't tolerate wage-slaves by slave-wages here.
It gets messy because the "people should decide" message shares the same outcome as "corporates get richer", so strong incentive for the latter to amplify the former.
This whole story echos those union fights in our history textbooks.
A decision was made that a slave-wage is undesirable/illegal, so the wage-slave job goes away.
The argument is about do you believe people should decide for themselves that the wage-slave job is better than nothing, or should the government dictate that we don't tolerate wage-slaves by slave-wages here.
It gets messy because the "people should decide" message shares the same outcome as "corporates get richer", so strong incentive for the latter to amplify the former.
This whole story echos those union fights in our history textbooks.
If these people didn’t turn a profit no one would do the jobs, as they’d be losing money in each order. They may not be happy with that profit, but it’s a profitable gig
Seems more like delivery apps can't coexist with a living wage because the cost is too high. If the system only works on exploitation then it wasn't a good system before.
Everyone got drunk off VC backed loss taking to corner and monopolize the market but once they gotta turn a profit AND pay a living wage we quickly realize its never been a sustainable system.
Everyone got drunk off VC backed loss taking to corner and monopolize the market but once they gotta turn a profit AND pay a living wage we quickly realize its never been a sustainable system.
Unsustainable business is unsustainable. News at 5. Or 11. Or maybe noon. Whenever news that isn't really news is aired.
Even without the additional city-based fee, these food delivery services companies are far too expensive.
Even without the additional city-based fee, these food delivery services companies are far too expensive.
Not sure why people are disliking your comment. You are absolutely right - a business that cannot turn a profit while paying even the most basic wages (I wouldn’t call $15 per hour “living”) has no business existing. How did people in the 1930s understand this and pass the Fair Labor Standards Act, and yet highly-educated techies fail to grasp this simple concept?
> How did people in the 1930s understand this and pass the Fair Labor Standards Act, and yet highly-educated techies fail to grasp this simple concept?
People in the 1930s came right out of the Great Depression with 25% unemployment rate. Stuff had to change, and radically at that, which is why FDR got elected.
Today's techies, meanwhile, are largely decoupled from the actual realities of the people. We live in decent homes with fat paychecks, and despite us working for the same company as the barely-surviving delivery driver, our lives rarely intersect other than at the next food delivery.
People in the 1930s came right out of the Great Depression with 25% unemployment rate. Stuff had to change, and radically at that, which is why FDR got elected.
Today's techies, meanwhile, are largely decoupled from the actual realities of the people. We live in decent homes with fat paychecks, and despite us working for the same company as the barely-surviving delivery driver, our lives rarely intersect other than at the next food delivery.
> How did people in the 1930s understand this and pass the Fair Labor Standards Act, and yet highly-educated techies fail to grasp this simple concept?
Because the "highly-educated techies" think of themselves as the next potential big founder over a tech company taking lumps of money from each transaction and making it big.
Closing that form of exploitation closes down all of those techies' wet dream of exploiting millions to be the next (pee-bottle) Bezos.
Because the "highly-educated techies" think of themselves as the next potential big founder over a tech company taking lumps of money from each transaction and making it big.
Closing that form of exploitation closes down all of those techies' wet dream of exploiting millions to be the next (pee-bottle) Bezos.
And yet people were using them more until the city decided to add the extra fee. Just because a cost is added by the government doesn't make it immune to the demand-supply curve.
It was 'sustaining' just fine until City Hall got involved.
“These services hurt workers! Let’s force them to charge more and pay a living wage!”
<Law implemented and jobs disappear>
“Well those jobs were bad anyway, we are all better off without them”
<Law implemented and jobs disappear>
“Well those jobs were bad anyway, we are all better off without them”
Funny, that’s the same exact (bad) argument against the minimum wage…
Hopefully the way I phrased it puts a point on why job losses are bad.
There are no “bad” jobs - just labor that needs to be done, with a commiserate price. If the labor is too difficult to find at a price, the price goes up. You can’t artificially increase the price without losing jobs.
There are no “bad” jobs - just labor that needs to be done, with a commiserate price. If the labor is too difficult to find at a price, the price goes up. You can’t artificially increase the price without losing jobs.
> There are no “bad” jobs
What about fentanyl dealer? Hitman? Psychologist for a social media or tobacco company? Telemarketer?
What about fentanyl dealer? Hitman? Psychologist for a social media or tobacco company? Telemarketer?
I’m not suggesting we don’t outlaw illegal activities. I’m saying for legal enterprises, stuff needs to get done. Bad jobs are in the eye of the beholder. A lot of people love delivering for door dash vs. working retail.
How many delivery drivers are you friends with? Ever bought them a tank of gas or a tire because they can't afford it? I have; they might prefer it to the soul-suck of retail, but that doesn't make it anything like a good job.
Everyone has complaints. I’d rather be working retail than in the fields 500 years ago, the mill 200 years ago, or as a manual human calculator 100 years ago. Or maybe some would disagree! Labor needs to be done. There is no utopia - in a socialist economy there are very few who get to hold the clipboards, everyone else works the fields or the factories.
Which jobs have you worked?
he is talking of economically bad jobs not morally bad jobs
And those are economically good jobs?
I am not making a judgment on that, I was just pointing out that your counter-examples weren't really relevant to the point OP was making.
There seems to be a choice between a lot of poverty-level jobs (with low consumer prices) and fewer living-wage jobs (with high consumer prices) and it's legitimate for a government to opt for the latter with something like this ordinance.
The problem comes that switching requires those jobs to go away. Even in the best case that's going to be very painful for the workers that lose their poverty-level job and have nothing. But what this article is highlighting is even worse - because of the way gig job works there isn't even a switch to fewer jobs livable-wage jobs, just less work spread between the same people. Hopefully that's temporary but it's not clear cut.
I think this is an example of a very painful policy choice. It might be the right decision long term but still can be a damaging transition.
The problem comes that switching requires those jobs to go away. Even in the best case that's going to be very painful for the workers that lose their poverty-level job and have nothing. But what this article is highlighting is even worse - because of the way gig job works there isn't even a switch to fewer jobs livable-wage jobs, just less work spread between the same people. Hopefully that's temporary but it's not clear cut.
I think this is an example of a very painful policy choice. It might be the right decision long term but still can be a damaging transition.
Why is this the better in choice in the long run?
Don’t get me wrong - nothing would make me happier than abundant living wage jobs, but if the demand isn’t there to support them, isn’t poverty level more poverty level jobs in the aggregate a better outcome than a binary outcome?
Don’t get me wrong - nothing would make me happier than abundant living wage jobs, but if the demand isn’t there to support them, isn’t poverty level more poverty level jobs in the aggregate a better outcome than a binary outcome?
Obviously no. This is the reason we have the minimum wage and labor laws. I can’t believe this is even a serious question
Minimum wage = poverty level
But I guess policy needs to be studied--really studied--examined from all fronts, tested with the full weight of reality.
If you ban X, what replaces it? Y? Is Y really better? If you add a charge of Z to support certain industries, how does that shift the economics? You can't just assume that a $5 charge means $5 more in the pocket of everyone in that industry.