When every ketchup but one went extinct (2022)(atlasobscura.com)
atlasobscura.com
When every ketchup but one went extinct (2022)
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/history-of-heinz-ketchup
143 comments
Secret ingredient here must be sugar/corn-syrup. Makes a good thickener. Don’t need preservatives when your sugar concentration is high enough.
And who doesn’t love sweet?
(Acidity from vinegar helps too)
And who doesn’t love sweet?
(Acidity from vinegar helps too)
> Heinz’s new tomato ketchup cost two to three times more than its competitors. But the price increase also paid for the largest advertising campaign the industry had ever seen.
Long tradition of competing on anything but merits :)
Long tradition of competing on anything but merits :)
To be clear the full sentence said:
> Thanks in part to high-quality ingredients, Heinz’s new tomato ketchup cost two to three times more than its competitors. But the price increase also paid for the largest advertising campaign the industry had ever seen
So it was higher quality and had the biggest advertising campaign.
> Thanks in part to high-quality ingredients, Heinz’s new tomato ketchup cost two to three times more than its competitors. But the price increase also paid for the largest advertising campaign the industry had ever seen
So it was higher quality and had the biggest advertising campaign.
And to encourage the government to rule your competitors' products are 'unsafe', maybe even forbid selling altogether...
What confuses me is that, though as I understand it Ketchup was a general term to decscribe a variety of sauces, in Cantonese it sounds exactly like Tomato ("Ke") Paste ("tchup"). Given its origins in southeast Asia, I had assumed that could not possibly be a coincidence.
Wiktionary[1] says it’s “probably ultimately from Hokkien Chinese 膎汁 (kê-chiap, “fish sauce”)”. So not a million miles off?
[1]: https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/ketchup
[1]: https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/ketchup
chiap sure? Ke no. In Cantonese, fish is yu. But yeah.
Also: I had thought it was originally Malay.
Also: I had thought it was originally Malay.
Malay "ketjap" or "kecap" (different types of soy sauces) comes from Chinese "kê-chiap". It may be directly inspired by Malay languages without knowledge of Chinese and still be "ultimately from Hokkien Chinese".
膎 preserved fish, not 鱼 plain old fish.
Ah! Well it still doesn't help (it's haai in Cantonese). But that's interesting.
Tomatoes are relatively late addition to european cuisine (1500ish), there would be influences from a silk for centuries before. It sounds quite probable.
Not sure exactly what you’re saying but the Europeans brought tomatoes to India and East Asia.
I can imagine some exec fine tuning the transliteration. Coca cola was first transliterated "bite the wax tadpole" or "female horse stuffed with wax". Coke then researched 40,000 Chinese characters and found a close phonetic equivalent, "ko-kou-ko-le," which can be loosely translated as "happiness in the mouth."
Leaving this here since the site hijacked ctrl+c to add its url: https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/business-jokes/coca-col...
Leaving this here since the site hijacked ctrl+c to add its url: https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/business-jokes/coca-col...
It's not branding, 茄汁 "kit chup" is literally how you'd say "sauce made from tomatoes" in Cantonese.
When I lived in NYC, I would frequent this coffee shop down near Little Italy. They had a grape ketchup for sale. I never bought one but always wanted to try it. I'd probably hate it because my brain is so hard-wired to think of ketchup as a tomato-based sauce, but I was still curious about it.
Banana ketchup (dyed red) became popular in the Phillipines during and after WWII. There were tomato shortages.
Huy Fong Foods Sriracha is basically just red jalapeno ketchup.
If you can switch your brain to thinking of it as grape dipping sauce you'd probably like it.
Huy Fong Foods Sriracha is basically just red jalapeno ketchup.
If you can switch your brain to thinking of it as grape dipping sauce you'd probably like it.
A fun fact: in Pittsburgh (where Heinz is from), many of the original industrial buildings have been remodeled into luxury lofts. I have only been outside the complex, so I can't confirm if there are any lingering tomato smells.
https://www.heinzlofts.com
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._J._Heinz_Company_complex
https://www.heinzlofts.com
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._J._Heinz_Company_complex
> Many companies had used benzoates to hide poor sanitation and low-quality tomatoes. Ketchup was often made from leftover tomato trimmings that were stored poorly and then bottled with a heavy dose of benzoate, which also covered up factories’ shoddy sanitization practices that would otherwise breed mold and bacteria.
This sounds suspiciously similar to the US practice of washing poultry meat with chlorine and eggs with water (which massively reduces its shelf life).
This sounds suspiciously similar to the US practice of washing poultry meat with chlorine and eggs with water (which massively reduces its shelf life).
> This sounds suspiciously similar to the US practice of washing poultry meat with chlorine
You mean the exact same thing Europeans do with leafy greens?
But one is a target of economic protectionism and the other isn't, so it must be scary in that specific case.
> eggs with water (which massively reduces its shelf life).
Ok, and?
You mean the exact same thing Europeans do with leafy greens?
But one is a target of economic protectionism and the other isn't, so it must be scary in that specific case.
> eggs with water (which massively reduces its shelf life).
Ok, and?
Discussed at the time (of the article):
When Every Ketchup but One Went Extinct - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32774584 - Sept 2022 (120 comments)
When Every Ketchup but One Went Extinct - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32557361 - Aug 2022 (1 comment)
When Every Ketchup but One Went Extinct - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32774584 - Sept 2022 (120 comments)
When Every Ketchup but One Went Extinct - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32557361 - Aug 2022 (1 comment)
Mushroom ketchup is quite nice, easy way of disposing stale mushrooms. I must try using wild mushrooms one day.
Malcolm Gladwell wrote a thing on ketchup years ago called “The Ketchup Conundrum”. [1]
It’s worth a read as it goes deep into the history of ketchup but more so it investigates food tasting, super tasters, etc. It turns out that Heinz Ketchup is essentially a perfect food in terms of taste. People don’t get tired of it and other ketchups come and go because they are all ultimately flawed. Some grab people initially but they tire of it because it isn’t balanced. Heinz is as are a few other products the article talks about.
[1] https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2004/09/06/the-ketchup-co...
It’s worth a read as it goes deep into the history of ketchup but more so it investigates food tasting, super tasters, etc. It turns out that Heinz Ketchup is essentially a perfect food in terms of taste. People don’t get tired of it and other ketchups come and go because they are all ultimately flawed. Some grab people initially but they tire of it because it isn’t balanced. Heinz is as are a few other products the article talks about.
[1] https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2004/09/06/the-ketchup-co...
I wouldn't say it's perfect or the only balanced ketchup, but it fits very well into its role and is hard to consistently improve on in ways that are strictly better for the final product and competitive with its cost.
It's a notorious "newb trap" for chefs. You see a place making their own ketchup, that stuff might be good but you know they don't have a seasoned professional's view of where value is made. It takes hours of labor to make ketchup for something that in the end doesn't make your burger taste better than heinz does.
It's a notorious "newb trap" for chefs. You see a place making their own ketchup, that stuff might be good but you know they don't have a seasoned professional's view of where value is made. It takes hours of labor to make ketchup for something that in the end doesn't make your burger taste better than heinz does.
People continue to make ketchups that people say they prefer after a single bite and it’s usually because they have a certain flavor that stands out. But they don’t see return customers.
Similar to soda. Coke has just the right combination of things that no one else is close. Pepsi used to do a blind taste test and people preferred Pepsi after a single taste. But it’s 1-dimensional and people quickly tire of it. Coke eventually comes out on top.
“Perfect” is subjective but the article describes a ratings system that super tasters use. Heinz ketchup comes out perfect. And the lack of competition proves it.
Similar to soda. Coke has just the right combination of things that no one else is close. Pepsi used to do a blind taste test and people preferred Pepsi after a single taste. But it’s 1-dimensional and people quickly tire of it. Coke eventually comes out on top.
“Perfect” is subjective but the article describes a ratings system that super tasters use. Heinz ketchup comes out perfect. And the lack of competition proves it.
Eh don't be so credulous about shit malcolm gladwell says lol. Heinz's dominance probably comes down to the usual matrix of suitability across a large set of uses, consistency, cost, marketing, familiarity. I'm agreeing with you that it's very well balanced and nearly impossible to broadly beat at its price point. My former-professional opinion is that they hit a local maximum around price and flexibility, not that they somehow have the one perfect food product on the planet though.
Heinz dominance of the market is evidence that you're wrong.
I occasionally try other ketchup brands, and they really aren't "better" in any dimension that I can discern. They're different, but ultimately unsatisfying.
If you have a product that hits 98% on any dimension that matters, there's really not a lot of room for "better."
That also goes for the difference between straight Heinz and the Simply Heinz (the one made with sugar). There's a non meaningful flavor difference, but straight Heinz is the clear winner in that I don't buy SH.
I occasionally try other ketchup brands, and they really aren't "better" in any dimension that I can discern. They're different, but ultimately unsatisfying.
If you have a product that hits 98% on any dimension that matters, there's really not a lot of room for "better."
That also goes for the difference between straight Heinz and the Simply Heinz (the one made with sugar). There's a non meaningful flavor difference, but straight Heinz is the clear winner in that I don't buy SH.
I'm fairly sure that the ingredient that makes Coke distinctive is neroli. It's the only known ingredient in Coke which is moderately expensive, and the brand buys a fair amount of total world production, presumably at a good price. The also-rans don't use it, once you know what to look for this is quite clear.
First thing I thought of. The takeaway for me is that (a) Malcolm Gladwell generalizes and story-izes like mad to make a compelling take, but (b) it turns out that it's a very powerful thing to balance flavors until the synthesis has a stronger personality than any of its component parts.
Works in other art forms, too, and works in regular cooking. If you like a sensation, be careful to not dive in and add LOTS of it or the thing you like will end up distractingly strong, and the gestalt will suffer.
Works in other art forms, too, and works in regular cooking. If you like a sensation, be careful to not dive in and add LOTS of it or the thing you like will end up distractingly strong, and the gestalt will suffer.
If you have an open weekend in the late summer, you can make your own ketchup. We did this a couple of summers just over twenty years ago. Then we bought an old house, and there were no open weekends.
A weekend if you're fancy :-)
I found that tomato paste, sugar, vinegar and ground up pickling spice was good enough for me. And only took 15 minutes.
I found that tomato paste, sugar, vinegar and ground up pickling spice was good enough for me. And only took 15 minutes.
What’s pickling spice?
It's a spice mix that's used in pickling vegetables.
https://www.allrecipes.com/article/pickling-spice/
https://www.allrecipes.com/article/pickling-spice/
Is the current formulation still free of preservatives?
It's great the bottles don't spoil after being packaged, but I assume once opened all the careful boiling done at the beginning becomes irrelevant. And it's always been unclear to me how long you can keep a bottle around from that point onward! Especially say at a diner, where the bottle is non-refrigerated and sitting for days/months/years (periodically topped up)
It's great the bottles don't spoil after being packaged, but I assume once opened all the careful boiling done at the beginning becomes irrelevant. And it's always been unclear to me how long you can keep a bottle around from that point onward! Especially say at a diner, where the bottle is non-refrigerated and sitting for days/months/years (periodically topped up)
They removed sodium benzoate in the early 20th century. They put this tweet [1] out a couple of years ago alongside some other social media campaigns.
The consensus was at the time was that it’s shelf stable due to the acidity, but it still needs to be refrigerated after opening. Restaurants go through sauce quicker, so they can leave it on the table.
[1] https://x.com/heinzuk/status/1673651138774589444
The consensus was at the time was that it’s shelf stable due to the acidity, but it still needs to be refrigerated after opening. Restaurants go through sauce quicker, so they can leave it on the table.
[1] https://x.com/heinzuk/status/1673651138774589444
you don't think diners just top up the bottles at the end of the day when they're closing? I'm skeptical they run the bottles through the dish washer
So I have a rather unfortunate tale about ketchup being refilled at diners from my time working as a server in undergrad that affirms your concerns.
In the back of the kitchen, we had a ketchup refill area which used a large bag-in-box system; here is what that looks like: https://i.imgur.com/jP8zrrI.png
As you can imagine, the bag lasted quite a while as we would just top up the classic red ketchup bottle with a screw lid. But...because our restaurant (Hamburger Mary's) was low/no-volume from Monday to Thursday, those bottles just...uh...sat on the tables for days on end, at most they'd sit out for a week.
On the tables.
At room temperature.
With constant exposure to air.
You can probably see where this is going:
The ketchup would gradually ferment due to the warm room temperature and continuous exposure to air. This fermentation process gave it a unique ‘tangy’ flavor that some customers mistook for a special “beer ketchup”. Given that I worked in Milwaukee, WI (a city known for its breweries and beer culture) their assumption wasn’t entirely baseless
But in reality, they were complimenting the taste of…well…rancid ketchup.
I left shortly after that experience to a real restaurant (Rock Bottom; if you like cajun pasta, here is their recipe for it: https://imgur.com/a/fjZnDAz) but yeah -- definitely be careful where you go to eat. Higher than normal employee turnover is absolutely a warning sign that the restaurant is poorly run and probably not the best place to eat.
In the back of the kitchen, we had a ketchup refill area which used a large bag-in-box system; here is what that looks like: https://i.imgur.com/jP8zrrI.png
As you can imagine, the bag lasted quite a while as we would just top up the classic red ketchup bottle with a screw lid. But...because our restaurant (Hamburger Mary's) was low/no-volume from Monday to Thursday, those bottles just...uh...sat on the tables for days on end, at most they'd sit out for a week.
On the tables.
At room temperature.
With constant exposure to air.
You can probably see where this is going:
The ketchup would gradually ferment due to the warm room temperature and continuous exposure to air. This fermentation process gave it a unique ‘tangy’ flavor that some customers mistook for a special “beer ketchup”. Given that I worked in Milwaukee, WI (a city known for its breweries and beer culture) their assumption wasn’t entirely baseless
But in reality, they were complimenting the taste of…well…rancid ketchup.
I left shortly after that experience to a real restaurant (Rock Bottom; if you like cajun pasta, here is their recipe for it: https://imgur.com/a/fjZnDAz) but yeah -- definitely be careful where you go to eat. Higher than normal employee turnover is absolutely a warning sign that the restaurant is poorly run and probably not the best place to eat.
Stories like this make me less cautious rather than more cautious. It shows me that the human body is much more tolerant of "unsanitary" conditions than the focus on safety, cleanliness, etc. conditions us to believe. If I don't get sick from something, and I like the way it tastes, and there's nothing unethical about its production, why should I worry?
I'm with you - people take the wrong outlook with stuff like this. Prior to civilization we survived by eating far worse things
I won't go into graphic detail, but my brother has eaten more metal than a sane person would ever consider
He's come out fine. What's remarkable is... this was with no assistance at all.
The body is remarkably good at passing things it doesn't care for
This isn't to say we should gross things up, though. As resilient as we can be... so can we be disgusting.
I won't go into graphic detail, but my brother has eaten more metal than a sane person would ever consider
He's come out fine. What's remarkable is... this was with no assistance at all.
The body is remarkably good at passing things it doesn't care for
This isn't to say we should gross things up, though. As resilient as we can be... so can we be disgusting.
How were the shows?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburger_Mary's
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburger_Mary's
They definitely top off the bottles. I’ve seen them do it.
I don't know how long it takes to go bad, but I do know that I use ketchup very rarely, mostly to make other sauces, and I keep a bottle in the fridge and check it before every time I use it. I've tasted ketchup that's been in the fridge for 2-3 years past the expiration date that has no obvious defects and looks and tastes just like fresh ketchup. I think the vinegar and the cold provide a lot of preservation.
Salt and vinegar are preservatives, but there are no benzoates in Heinz. In other countries I have encountered preservatives, added colors and even artificial thickeners in some brands.
The thickeners are (along with the obvious reason of thickness) to avoid ‘serum’, which is the undesirable blurt of pale, watery liquid that comes out of you don’t shake it enough.
Or you could, you know, shake the bottle instead of adding crap to the ketchup.
Shaking has the additional benefit of reducing the viscosity and making it easier to dispense, due to ketchup being thixotropic.
That and poor sauce technique.
Part of the problem here is people not closing the bottle at the table. Humidity condenses inside of the bottle, which is typically still cold from the refrigerator.
Part of the problem here is people not closing the bottle at the table. Humidity condenses inside of the bottle, which is typically still cold from the refrigerator.
This constitutes yet another example of where we have substituted a chemical for a physical process.
The activity of water (a function of the chemical potential) in ketchup is very low. If the water activity of a food is low enough it'll keep without refrigeration.
I don't know if ketchup's low enough to stay indefinitely, but it'll keep long enough.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_activity
I don't know if ketchup's low enough to stay indefinitely, but it'll keep long enough.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_activity
[deleted]
Ketchup has a lot of vinegar, ie it's pretty sour. That alone helps with preservation.
I wonder what additives are currently in good that we’ll discover to be harmful in the future.
Also interesting that Heinz’s ketchup (in be the US) is now full of high fructose corn syrup and artificial food dyes, when (from the article) it started as the better/safer/more natural option.
Also interesting that Heinz’s ketchup (in be the US) is now full of high fructose corn syrup and artificial food dyes, when (from the article) it started as the better/safer/more natural option.
> Also interesting that Heinz’s ketchup (in be the US) is now full of high fructose corn syrup and artificial food dyes, when (from the article) it started as the better/safer/more natural option
Amazing the leaps you took to make this statement. 1) There are no food dyes that I am aware of. 2) I don't think the science is conclusive that HFCS is any worse than sugar. 3) They make many varieties, some which use cane sugar instead of HFCS. 4) What does this have anything to to with the US?
Amazing the leaps you took to make this statement. 1) There are no food dyes that I am aware of. 2) I don't think the science is conclusive that HFCS is any worse than sugar. 3) They make many varieties, some which use cane sugar instead of HFCS. 4) What does this have anything to to with the US?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3649104/ (2013)
> Both controversy and confusion exist concerning fructose, sucrose, and high-fructose corn syrup (HFCS) with respect to their metabolism and health effects. These concerns have often been fueled by speculation based on limited data or animal studies. In retrospect, recent controversies arose when a scientific commentary was published suggesting a possible unique link between HFCS consumption and obesity. Since then, a broad scientific consensus has emerged that there are no metabolic or endocrine response differences between HFCS and sucrose related to obesity or any other adverse health outcome. This equivalence is not surprising given that both of these sugars contain approximately equal amounts of fructose and glucose, contain the same number of calories, possess the same level of sweetness, and are absorbed identically through the gastrointestinal tract. [...]
> Both controversy and confusion exist concerning fructose, sucrose, and high-fructose corn syrup (HFCS) with respect to their metabolism and health effects. These concerns have often been fueled by speculation based on limited data or animal studies. In retrospect, recent controversies arose when a scientific commentary was published suggesting a possible unique link between HFCS consumption and obesity. Since then, a broad scientific consensus has emerged that there are no metabolic or endocrine response differences between HFCS and sucrose related to obesity or any other adverse health outcome. This equivalence is not surprising given that both of these sugars contain approximately equal amounts of fructose and glucose, contain the same number of calories, possess the same level of sweetness, and are absorbed identically through the gastrointestinal tract. [...]
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9551185/ (2022)
> In conclusion, analysis of data from the literature suggests that HFCS consumption was associated with a higher level of CRP compared to sucrose, whilst no significant changes between the two sweeteners were evident in other anthropometric and metabolic parameters
We could go back and forth all day long posting studies from nih.gov, lets not be silly. I don't think what you have provided disproves my statement. The science is inconclusive, we don't know that HFCS is materially worse than sugar. I think we can say sugar in any form is not great in large quantities but I don't think we know for certain how worse, if any, HFCS is compared to natural sugar.
> In conclusion, analysis of data from the literature suggests that HFCS consumption was associated with a higher level of CRP compared to sucrose, whilst no significant changes between the two sweeteners were evident in other anthropometric and metabolic parameters
We could go back and forth all day long posting studies from nih.gov, lets not be silly. I don't think what you have provided disproves my statement. The science is inconclusive, we don't know that HFCS is materially worse than sugar. I think we can say sugar in any form is not great in large quantities but I don't think we know for certain how worse, if any, HFCS is compared to natural sugar.
Profits drive use of HFCS because fructose is sweeter than glucose. A pinch of enzyme converts glucose to fructose and saves a bunch of money.
Fructose interferes with glucose use and regulation. The real comparison to be made is between normal corn syrup (only glucose) and HFCS (about half fructose), not sugar (about half fructose).
When using crude tools to evaluate metabolism like the glycemic index, which only considers blood glucose, it appears that fructose is better. The modern Western diet leads to obesity, diabetes, and fatty liver disease (NAFLD) because fructose metabolism collides with lipid metabolism in the liver.
Fructose interferes with glucose use and regulation. The real comparison to be made is between normal corn syrup (only glucose) and HFCS (about half fructose), not sugar (about half fructose).
When using crude tools to evaluate metabolism like the glycemic index, which only considers blood glucose, it appears that fructose is better. The modern Western diet leads to obesity, diabetes, and fatty liver disease (NAFLD) because fructose metabolism collides with lipid metabolism in the liver.
HFCS has about the same amount of fructose as its usual substitute, sucrose. I don't see very many products around me sweetened with pure glucose
The HFCS scare reminds me of the seed oil scare: people over-eating thousands of calories of highly palatable foods looking for one evil ingredient that is causing their problems instead of questioning their huge calorie intake.
As if replacing canola with butter and HFCS with sucrose in their junk food will cure them of their over eating.
As if replacing canola with butter and HFCS with sucrose in their junk food will cure them of their over eating.
Thats the thing that annoys me about it. It reminds me of how table salt is toxic when eaten in massive quantities. People love to throw up all these studies and fear monge...shoot when your driving your car, all the cars around you have exhaust that you are breathing in. Sure if you are knocking back a liter of coke a day, maybe HFCS is materially worse than cane sugar but I would agrue the greater threat is consuming that much sugar.
Don't get me started on seed oils......
Don't get me started on seed oils......
This still does not really convince me that it is materially different at scale. I think what I said still holds true.
> I don't think the science is conclusive that HFCS is any worse than sugar.
The science is rarely conclusive about anything. There is enough evidence to suggest risks from high HFCS consumption to warrant caution.
> 3) They make many varieties, some which use cane sugar instead of HFCS. 4) What does this have anything to to with the US?
The US is associated with high HFCS consumption. I would suspect that these points are related and those non-HFCS varieties are more popular outside the US.
The science is rarely conclusive about anything. There is enough evidence to suggest risks from high HFCS consumption to warrant caution.
> 3) They make many varieties, some which use cane sugar instead of HFCS. 4) What does this have anything to to with the US?
The US is associated with high HFCS consumption. I would suspect that these points are related and those non-HFCS varieties are more popular outside the US.
You did not prove it’s materially more harmful. Yes science is rarely conclusive but we have enough studies on both sides and it’s unclear how harmful it is in low quantities. I think we all can generally agree that higher consumption quantities of any type of sweetener is generally not healthy.
The point about the US is the parent pointed it out as a jab when in reality they were wrong on multiple accounts.
The point about the US is the parent pointed it out as a jab when in reality they were wrong on multiple accounts.
> You did not prove it’s materially more harmful. Yes science is rarely conclusive but we have enough studies on both sides and it’s unclear how harmful it is in low quantities. I think we all can generally agree that higher consumption quantities of any type of sweetener is generally not healthy.
All true, and all beside the point. The best available evidence suggests - not proves, but suggests - that HFCS consumption is more harmful than the alternatives.
All true, and all beside the point. The best available evidence suggests - not proves, but suggests - that HFCS consumption is more harmful than the alternatives.
Going back to my original point. I don't think any of the science suggests that HFCS in moderate amounts has any material difference. But...like I also keep saying, none of the science is really conclusive on any of this but what I think is a generally agreed, sweetners are not healthy in frequent larger quantities.
Is that so? As an Aussie, Heinz is not a new brand for me, but I definitely associate them with beans before ketchup (tomato sauce (dead horse in rhyming slang)). Canned baked beans are not thought of as a natural nor healthy option - is that the perception of Heinz as a company in NA, or is it just the ketchup product that's thought of as better/safer/more natural?
Your comment reminded me of the Mad Men story arc (set in the 60s) which is about Heinz being associated with beans, not ketchup.
In the US, today I'd say Heinz is almost overwhelmingly associated with ketchup, so it's interesting that their ad efforts didn't make it to Oz.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDiCW6wlFBc
In the US, today I'd say Heinz is almost overwhelmingly associated with ketchup, so it's interesting that their ad efforts didn't make it to Oz.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDiCW6wlFBc
"Beanz Meanz Heinz" is etched into my memory from my youth in the UK.
Certainly when I think of Heinz I think of beans not ketchup.
Certainly when I think of Heinz I think of beans not ketchup.
Huh - they once ran ads for ketchup that said something like:
"Heinz, there are no other Kinds": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JplL1XzVV4
"Heinz, there are no other Kinds": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JplL1XzVV4
The Australia market was dominated by Fountain Tomato Sauce, and possibly Master Foods. Heinz Ketchup wasn't easy to find, and it may have been named Tomato Sauce rather than Ketchup here.
These days they may have a better association with "ketchup". My sister affirms that (Heinz) ketchup and tomato sauce are distinct products, but I'm not so sure.
For me, a ketchup is tomato purée / paste + suger + salt + some vinegar + possibly some seasoning (pepper, herbs...). Tomato sauces is a larger category of any kind of tomato based sauce in which we could shoehorn ketchup. A tomato sauce could be purely salted and without any sugar in it, though a pinch of sugar can mitigate the acidic taste.
I've bought Heinz Beans at a grocery store in Austin.
In the import section.
And they weren't bad, but not great either.
In the import section.
And they weren't bad, but not great either.
As an American, I had to do a terrible impression of an Aussie accent to hear how “sauce” and “horse” could possibly rhyme.
As for Heinz, my impression has always been that it’s the standard, mass-produced supermarket fare that is probably not healthy/natural. Nothing they make that much of that lasts for so long can possibly be so.
As for Heinz, my impression has always been that it’s the standard, mass-produced supermarket fare that is probably not healthy/natural. Nothing they make that much of that lasts for so long can possibly be so.
The science of long lasting food is well known.
Boiling kills most bacteria. Acid kills the leftover Botulism spores (one of the few diseases that survive boiling). Seal while hot and the food can stay good for a year or longer.
Tomatoes already are near the acid point that kills botulism. Just gotta lower pH a little more with either lemons or vinegar. And bam, success.
A professional would need to measure the pH to be sure as acidity levels differ. But we've been canning tomatoes for nearly two centuries now, the science is well tested and well figured out.
> Nothing they make that much of that lasts for so long can possibly be so.
Refrigeration was invented long after preserved foods. You couldn't match a Roman Legion 500 miles without preservatives.
Salt, olive oil and wheat. It must have sucked to be a Roman Legion but less so than other troops.
It's why 1lb of salt was worth 1lb of gold back then. The secrets of long lasting food (fermentation, salt, and other methods) is millennia old. Canning is relatively new (boiling+sealing simultaneously), a 1800s era discovery. But canning's health effects are well studied.
Boiling kills most bacteria. Acid kills the leftover Botulism spores (one of the few diseases that survive boiling). Seal while hot and the food can stay good for a year or longer.
Tomatoes already are near the acid point that kills botulism. Just gotta lower pH a little more with either lemons or vinegar. And bam, success.
A professional would need to measure the pH to be sure as acidity levels differ. But we've been canning tomatoes for nearly two centuries now, the science is well tested and well figured out.
> Nothing they make that much of that lasts for so long can possibly be so.
Refrigeration was invented long after preserved foods. You couldn't match a Roman Legion 500 miles without preservatives.
Salt, olive oil and wheat. It must have sucked to be a Roman Legion but less so than other troops.
It's why 1lb of salt was worth 1lb of gold back then. The secrets of long lasting food (fermentation, salt, and other methods) is millennia old. Canning is relatively new (boiling+sealing simultaneously), a 1800s era discovery. But canning's health effects are well studied.
Do you mean salt was worth as much as gold, literally?
> Do you mean salt was worth as much as gold, literally?
EDIT: Deleted my previous comment.
EDIT: I seem to have gotten the story backwards. It was West-Africa who needed the salt, but they had so many gold-mines that Gold was near worthless. Woops!!
So any European who brought salt past the Sahara Desert could trade 1-lb of salt for 1-lb of gold.
EDIT: Deleted my previous comment.
EDIT: I seem to have gotten the story backwards. It was West-Africa who needed the salt, but they had so many gold-mines that Gold was near worthless. Woops!!
So any European who brought salt past the Sahara Desert could trade 1-lb of salt for 1-lb of gold.
This is 100% BS. It probably comes from the same myth that in ancient times, people were paid in salt, since it was sooooo valueable, and ergo, salary.
That's at best a common myth, but was never literally true.
However salt was more expensive than today. But measured in eg hours of the average person had to work for to afford something, almost everything is cheaper today than almost any time in the past. Especially goods. (Services or land, not so much.)
However salt was more expensive than today. But measured in eg hours of the average person had to work for to afford something, almost everything is cheaper today than almost any time in the past. Especially goods. (Services or land, not so much.)
> As an American, I had to do a terrible impression of an Aussie accent to hear how “sauce” and “horse” could possibly rhyme.
I guess it help to start with a non-rhotic accent.
Going off on a tangent: I was very confused when one Calvin and Hobbes comic rhyme 'macabre' with 'job'; I figured out later that it's because American accents are weird.
I guess it help to start with a non-rhotic accent.
Going off on a tangent: I was very confused when one Calvin and Hobbes comic rhyme 'macabre' with 'job'; I figured out later that it's because American accents are weird.
Actually I assumed that they were adding in an R to “sauce”, almost like “source”. I don’t know many Australians, but from what I can remember I think they are likely to pronounce the R in “horse”. Now I don’t know.
See also https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/macabre#Pronunciation
(UK) IPA(key): /ˌməˈkɑː.bɹə/, /ˌməˈkɑː.bə(ɹ)/
(US) IPA(key): /məˈkɑb/, /ˌməˈkɑ.bɹə/, /ˌməˈkɑ.bɚ/
(UK) IPA(key): /ˌməˈkɑː.bɹə/, /ˌməˈkɑː.bə(ɹ)/
(US) IPA(key): /məˈkɑb/, /ˌməˈkɑ.bɹə/, /ˌməˈkɑ.bɚ/
They rhyme perfectly in an Australian accent :D
Not rhotic, plus the vowel in "sauce" tends towards "or" rather than "ah". Hope that's a comprehensible explanation of our esoteric pronunciation :)
Not rhotic, plus the vowel in "sauce" tends towards "or" rather than "ah". Hope that's a comprehensible explanation of our esoteric pronunciation :)
I feel like its similar to "source" being turned into "sauce".
I'm Australian and I've always pronounced "Source" and "Sauce" such that they sound the same.
I think the rhyming slang part comes from Cockney slang my Dad always used to say "Dogs Eye and Dead Horse" to mean Meat Pie and Tomato Sauce.
He had other strange slang he'd use too like "Oxford Scholar" to mean "One Dollar" - UK uses pounds though so no idea where that one originated...
What is the American pronunciation of Sauce? If I had to guess maybe they pronounce it so it sounds like "Sores" or "Saws".
I don't know if I've ever heard an American say Sauce. On most American tv shows they talk about 'Ketchup'. Eg Hot Dog and Ketchup, which is a Frankfurt with Tomato sauce on a bun (doesn't really have the same ring...).
I think the rhyming slang part comes from Cockney slang my Dad always used to say "Dogs Eye and Dead Horse" to mean Meat Pie and Tomato Sauce.
He had other strange slang he'd use too like "Oxford Scholar" to mean "One Dollar" - UK uses pounds though so no idea where that one originated...
What is the American pronunciation of Sauce? If I had to guess maybe they pronounce it so it sounds like "Sores" or "Saws".
I don't know if I've ever heard an American say Sauce. On most American tv shows they talk about 'Ketchup'. Eg Hot Dog and Ketchup, which is a Frankfurt with Tomato sauce on a bun (doesn't really have the same ring...).
Ha, yeah I'd say its pretty close to "saws"...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCm4VS9VMSM
That's 100% spot on.
I'm in the northeastern area of the country, it may be different for other areas.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCm4VS9VMSM
That's 100% spot on.
I'm in the northeastern area of the country, it may be different for other areas.
> What is the American pronunciation of Sauce?
Where I come from, it’s more like “sos” or I think “sas” in IPA.
Most often like “saws” (the cutting tools would be “sawz”)
Where I come from, it’s more like “sos” or I think “sas” in IPA.
Most often like “saws” (the cutting tools would be “sawz”)
"Saws" except the last consonant is a true "s" sound, not a zed :-)
In the US, Heinz is definitely more associated with ketchup. When Americans think of canned baked beans (which is rarely), Van Camp's is arguably more well-known.
When I think of Heinz these days I think of the politician John Kerry, because he's married to the heir to the Heinz family fortune. But that's mostly because my brain is weird.
When I think of Heinz these days I think of the politician John Kerry, because he's married to the heir to the Heinz family fortune. But that's mostly because my brain is weird.
Heinz: Tomato Concentrate from Red Ripe Tomatoes, Distilled Vinegar, High Fructose Corn Syrup, Corn Syrup, Salt, Spice, Onion Powder, Natural Flavoring
Heinz Simply: Tomato Concentrate from Red Ripe Tomatoes, Distilled Vinegar, Cane Sugar, Salt, Onion Powder, Spice, Natural Flavoring
Heinz No Sugar Added: Tomato Concentrate from Red Ripe Tomatoes, Distilled White Vinegar, Salt, Natural Flavoring, Stevia Leaf Extract (Not Normally Found in Ketchup), Onion Powder
Heinz No Salt Added: Tomato Concentrate from Red Ripe Tomatoes, Distilled White Vinegar, Sugar, Potassium Chloride (Not in Regular Ketchup), Natural Flavoring, Spice, Onion Powder
Heinz Organic: Organic Tomato Concentrate from Red Ripe Organic Tomatoes, Organic Distilled Vinegar, Organic Sugar, Salt, Organic Onion Powder, Organic Spice, Natural Flavoring
Heinz Jalapeno: Tomato Concentrate from Red Ripe Tomatoes, Distilled Vinegar, High Fructose Corn Syrup, Salt, Dried Jalapeno Peppers, Spice, Onion Powder, Natural Flavors, Bell Pepper Juice Concentrate
There are probably others, those are the ones listed at one store.
Heinz Simply: Tomato Concentrate from Red Ripe Tomatoes, Distilled Vinegar, Cane Sugar, Salt, Onion Powder, Spice, Natural Flavoring
Heinz No Sugar Added: Tomato Concentrate from Red Ripe Tomatoes, Distilled White Vinegar, Salt, Natural Flavoring, Stevia Leaf Extract (Not Normally Found in Ketchup), Onion Powder
Heinz No Salt Added: Tomato Concentrate from Red Ripe Tomatoes, Distilled White Vinegar, Sugar, Potassium Chloride (Not in Regular Ketchup), Natural Flavoring, Spice, Onion Powder
Heinz Organic: Organic Tomato Concentrate from Red Ripe Organic Tomatoes, Organic Distilled Vinegar, Organic Sugar, Salt, Organic Onion Powder, Organic Spice, Natural Flavoring
Heinz Jalapeno: Tomato Concentrate from Red Ripe Tomatoes, Distilled Vinegar, High Fructose Corn Syrup, Salt, Dried Jalapeno Peppers, Spice, Onion Powder, Natural Flavors, Bell Pepper Juice Concentrate
There are probably others, those are the ones listed at one store.
Heinz do different kinds of Ketchup, the no added salt one tastes just like regular european heinz ketchup (i.e. not as cloyingly sweet). I remember the ingredients didn't have HFCS listed on the bottle and we put it down to that being the difference.
Heinz US also does a “simply” ketchup with sugar instead of HGCS and no artificial dyes, and when you compare ingredient lists, that same “specialty” ketchup is the one that’s sold as regular ketchup in Canada.
Not adding salt makes it less sweet? Or is there some more differences?
I don't recall exactly but the ingredients lists were pretty different. The no salt one had tomatoes and maybe 2 or 3 other ingredients, the regular one had a few more ingredients although as i recall nothing weird except HFCS was one item.
'sucralose'. Which is a trade name, not a descriptive name.
There's no way that won't be found to be toxic. I recently had a health scare where I was inadvertently consuming a lot of it in a coffee creamer: the label color had changed and I thought nothing of it, but it represented a change in sweetener from monkfruit/stevia to 'sucralose'.
Came damn close to going to the hospital. Gut pain and sweats and pooping lighter and lighter shades as my organs shut down (at least from producing bile).
Figured out the change, dumped all the 'sucralose' and after a week or so returned to normal health, no other changes in diet or behavior at all.
I don't know why it's not banned already, but it must be hella profitable.
There's no way that won't be found to be toxic. I recently had a health scare where I was inadvertently consuming a lot of it in a coffee creamer: the label color had changed and I thought nothing of it, but it represented a change in sweetener from monkfruit/stevia to 'sucralose'.
Came damn close to going to the hospital. Gut pain and sweats and pooping lighter and lighter shades as my organs shut down (at least from producing bile).
Figured out the change, dumped all the 'sucralose' and after a week or so returned to normal health, no other changes in diet or behavior at all.
I don't know why it's not banned already, but it must be hella profitable.
Interestingly, I was listening to a podcast once and they were interviewing a researcher with Heinz who said one of their R&D goals is developing tomato varieties that are sweet enough to be used in making ketchup without added sugar. I don't remember what podcast it was and don't know if Heinz is still doing that but at the time they sounded like it was a big focus for them, for financial as well as health reasons.
Gastropod has a good episode on ketchup; it might have been the one I'm thinking of but it might not. It covers many of the same things as this article but in more depth with certain things.
Gastropod has a good episode on ketchup; it might have been the one I'm thinking of but it might not. It covers many of the same things as this article but in more depth with certain things.
So, the odd thing here is that, while, yes, most preservatives used in the early 20th century were extremely dodgy, sodium benzoate, while controlled, remains legal, and considered safe at reasonable levels. This was as much marketing as anything, in this particular case.
Food coloring would be news to me. I haven’t seen that in any ingredient lists… looking at Heinz’s website now, it does not list any dyes in the ingredients for their standard ketchup.
Gums.
Indigestible. Used in place of flour or corn starch as a thickener or emulsifier. They can be quite irritating to some people.
Indigestible. Used in place of flour or corn starch as a thickener or emulsifier. They can be quite irritating to some people.
it's not that hard to do your own ketchup, or some quicker variants of it.
One I do: - chop some onions - put some oil in a pot - cook the onions at not too high heat - after a few minutes, add soy sauce, vineagr, a good amount of sugar, pepper (optionally tomato sauce; exact quantities and spices depend on your unique taste) - keep cooking for at least 40 minutes with a lid on. now and then check if it's too dry add water
One I do: - chop some onions - put some oil in a pot - cook the onions at not too high heat - after a few minutes, add soy sauce, vineagr, a good amount of sugar, pepper (optionally tomato sauce; exact quantities and spices depend on your unique taste) - keep cooking for at least 40 minutes with a lid on. now and then check if it's too dry add water
Your recipe seems to be missing tomatoes (assuming you weren’t going for an onion ketchup?).
On the topic of non-tomato ketchup, a video that has stuck with me over the years: https://youtu.be/29u_FejNuks
it is. I willingly gave a variant to do in the absence of tomatoes. You can add them and get a more proper ketchup (I wrote optionally add tomato sauce, but it's true most people call ketchup only what has tomato in it. To me, the taste is quite similar even in the absence of tomatoes, what really gives the ketchup signature taste, again my opinion, is the balance of vinegar/sugar).
I see a lot of recipes that call for ketchup, but they also call for all the ingredients in ketchup as well. I often just substitute an extra can of tomatoes, some sugar and spices.
It sounds like there is only Heinz ketchup in all supermarkets in the USA. Is that so?
In Europe (at least Italy, Germany, Austria) there are many different types of ketchup and manufacturers in supermarkets.
In Europe (at least Italy, Germany, Austria) there are many different types of ketchup and manufacturers in supermarkets.
There are others, but they are generally seen as either budget options, or health food options.
We are starting to see more companies enter the market with sugar free ketchups, for example.
By me, Hunts is a common alternative to Heinz, but it seen as an option for people who buy on price, not taste.
Recently, I have been trying some of the sugar free options, but always also have a bottle of Heinz on hand, because if anyone comes over to my house, they will be disappointed with anything else. If kids come over, they might not eat their meal if it’s anything else.
We are starting to see more companies enter the market with sugar free ketchups, for example.
By me, Hunts is a common alternative to Heinz, but it seen as an option for people who buy on price, not taste.
Recently, I have been trying some of the sugar free options, but always also have a bottle of Heinz on hand, because if anyone comes over to my house, they will be disappointed with anything else. If kids come over, they might not eat their meal if it’s anything else.
Hunts and Del Monte are the other national brands. Then you have a ton of store and locality (state/region) specific options, as well as healthier/quality alternatives.
On a side note, American supermarkets being accused of having less options is genuinely a first for me to hear. On average, especially for common goods like this, you're looking at a 2-4x brand diversity in an American supermarket. That doesn't necessarily mean it's better quality, but you're definitely going to see more options just due to the sheer relative size of American supermarkets.
On a side note, American supermarkets being accused of having less options is genuinely a first for me to hear. On average, especially for common goods like this, you're looking at a 2-4x brand diversity in an American supermarket. That doesn't necessarily mean it's better quality, but you're definitely going to see more options just due to the sheer relative size of American supermarkets.
I'd like to clarify that I never "accused" American supermarkets of having less variety. In fact, my comment was aimed at expressing surprise at hearing such an accusation for the first time. Furthermore, I honestly don't necessarily find the 2-4 times brand diversity in American supermarkets to be particularly diverse, especially when comparing it to, for example, German supermarkets. Additionally, the size of a market does not imply "more brands" but usually means more space for the same brands, which doesn't necessarily equate to a greater variety.
But I honestly think U.S.S.upermarkets are great!
But I honestly think U.S.S.upermarkets are great!
> Additionally, the size of a market does not imply "more brands" but usually means more space for the same brands, which doesn't necessarily equate to a greater variety.
Well, just being someone who grew up in US and living in the EU now. As well as traveling quite prolificly throughout, I can attest (anecdotally, at least), that it does correlate to a larger brand diversity.
Well, just being someone who grew up in US and living in the EU now. As well as traveling quite prolificly throughout, I can attest (anecdotally, at least), that it does correlate to a larger brand diversity.
There are plenty of alternatives available, it's more that Heinz is just "the default."
Yes, and the alternatives are more or less identical to Heinz. The diversity of flavors and textures that this article talks about no longer exists.
I don't think that's true at all, except for the most generic of grocery stores. Case in point: https://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/search?text=ketchup
There are also an innumerable amount of other sauces that include tomatoes and can be considered variants or ketchup-adjacent.
There are also an innumerable amount of other sauces that include tomatoes and can be considered variants or ketchup-adjacent.
Naturally on the Internet there is an infinite variety. But using that Whole Foods site to filter the list to what's physically available at stores in my area, it reduces down to a list that's more or less Heinz and Heinz-like.
I find all ketchup that isn't Born Ketchup pretty much disgusting.
I wasn't counting on finding anybody else who loves Born on HN, but here you are :)
Has https://old.reddit.com/r/hela_gewuerzketchup/top/?sort=top&t... made it over there?
In Berlin, Hela ketchup is called „Techno Ketchup“.
> only Heinz ketchup in all supermarkets in the USA
I live in Chicago, we’re lucky to have a single ketchup in the supermarket.
(Around the 2:35 mark):
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=efG56KcQj0Q
I live in Chicago, we’re lucky to have a single ketchup in the supermarket.
(Around the 2:35 mark):
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=efG56KcQj0Q
Nobody I know gives a single thought to ketchup brands, Heinz or otherwise. Grab whatever is on the shelf, you'll have half a dozen choices. Never in my life have I heard that Heinz is better or higher quality. Just another brand.
But hey I live in the Midwest. Maybe the Heinz ketchup marketing juggernaut passed us by.
But hey I live in the Midwest. Maybe the Heinz ketchup marketing juggernaut passed us by.
They might've passed your family by but it isn't that rare to hear of a Heinz preference and that includes the Midwest.
Tell me you don't know anyone from Pittsburgh without telling me you don't know anyone from Pittsburgh.
What is this childish meme of cute redundant commenting? Where does it come from?
You have something to say here, say it. Plainly. Without the snark or superior attitude. Take that somewhere else; we won't miss it.
You have something to say here, say it. Plainly. Without the snark or superior attitude. Take that somewhere else; we won't miss it.
Kinda weird about atlas obscura articles every since it was discovered several articles have been faked.
Granted all those articles were from one author, but I still remain a bit skeptical.
Granted all those articles were from one author, but I still remain a bit skeptical.
I for one love the low sugar/salt Sir Kensington’s brand. Has what I want, and less of what I don’t.
"And because it [cat-sup] was fermented, it boasted a shelf life of one to seven years."
does that really follow?
does that really follow?
Yeah its one of the points of fermenting. Maybe even the point of fermentation.
"Fermentation was primarily developed for the stabilization of perishable agricultural produce."
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/food-science/food-ferme...
"Fermentation was primarily developed for the stabilization of perishable agricultural produce."
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/food-science/food-ferme...
I've heard of Indian dry mango pickles that are ~20 years old! I guess a product that is dominantly colonised by harmless bacteria is unlikely to be taken over by nasty things, unless it sports food that is tasty to harmful organisms and not friendly ones. Maybe the best defence is the dominant bacterium having eaten all the available sugars so that little further fermentation can occur (and the bottle won't explode)
When I was a kid, the pickles we bought would last 2-3 years in some cases - only typically being eaten at special meals like christmas, new years, easter, birthdays.
These days I wouldn't trust a modern shop bought pickle to last more than a couple of months before they start to look like they're growing fungus.
I don't know what changed, but something did, and commercial pickles these days do not stay safe to eat.
These days I wouldn't trust a modern shop bought pickle to last more than a couple of months before they start to look like they're growing fungus.
I don't know what changed, but something did, and commercial pickles these days do not stay safe to eat.
> I guess a product that is dominantly colonised by harmless bacteria is unlikely to be taken over by nasty thing
much like human skin, gut, etc.
much like human skin, gut, etc.
Yes! Fermentation of fresh foods with lactic acid bacteria increases the acidity of foods and hence the shelf life. As far as I know, though, you also have to add salt to suppress the growth of less desirable microorganisms.
Edit: You can skip the fermanation step by pickling your vegetables with a suitable vinegar. The taste will be much different though.
Edit: You can skip the fermanation step by pickling your vegetables with a suitable vinegar. The taste will be much different though.
Yup, my understanding is that salt suppresses many bacteria, then the acid produced by lactobacteria (hopefully) suppresses botulism. Essential to ensure you have enough sugars to convert to acid! Test the pH in your ferments if you're giving them to friends!
Fermentation does a few things - it removes some of the excess sugars so other microbes don't have much to feed one, it changes the ph of the liquid so that again it is inhospitable to other microbes, and the mild alcohols can also inhibit other growths.
Wines can taste great (better even!) after years of storage, I would have not problem eating a well ages fermented ketchup.
Wines can taste great (better even!) after years of storage, I would have not problem eating a well ages fermented ketchup.
I moved from the UK to the US and was disappointed to learn that Heinz ketchup is different here. The taste is not the same.
But then I discovered that in the US they sell a variant called "Simply", which seems to be the same recipe as the UK/EU version.
But then I discovered that in the US they sell a variant called "Simply", which seems to be the same recipe as the UK/EU version.
This is a throwaway sentence mid article, but it makes it sound like the recipe that allowed Heinz to dominate was from an unpaid woman! Heinz had already figured out how to make ketchup shelf stable without preservatives, but I'm intrigued to know if he would have "won" without her recipe!