Laughing Off the Dark Mode Lobby(lloydatkinson.net)
lloydatkinson.net
Laughing Off the Dark Mode Lobby
https://www.lloydatkinson.net/posts/2024/the-dark-mode-lobby/
131 comments
> I don't want light or dark modes, I want a low-contrast UI that doesn't fatigue in the long run.
Windows used to be good for this as you've said, if you set the window background to a moderate grey it would propagate across almost everything properly - even Word and Excel - and you'd never end up staring into a pane of pure white, which wasn't so bad with CRTs (because pushing the brightness up on CRTs reduced sharpness) but with big LCD panels, especially when they were brand new and had non-degraded backlights was horrific.
> I want a low-contrast UI that doesn't fatigue
low-contrast UI hurts my eyes. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
low-contrast UI hurts my eyes. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
As an incorrigible 1990s person, I associate light mode with competence and science and Silicon Graphics pastel GUIs, while dark mode is for people who think everything in “The Matrix” is the height of cool.
It’s probably hard to see the green-on-black terminal while wearing sunglasses in your neon-lit office cubicle, but that’s the price of style.
It’s probably hard to see the green-on-black terminal while wearing sunglasses in your neon-lit office cubicle, but that’s the price of style.
I grew up on dark mode on an Apple II+/e/gs. The white background mafia didn't take over until the mid-to-late-90s and forced everyone to use it. I'm entirely happy with the dark mode backlash and getting back to my roots.
Now we have the backlash to the backlash to dark mode which is rehash of the arguments in the 90s proving that time is circular.
Cite all the studies about "people are more productive with white backgrounds" and it just convinces me more that I'm not people.
Now we have the backlash to the backlash to dark mode which is rehash of the arguments in the 90s proving that time is circular.
Cite all the studies about "people are more productive with white backgrounds" and it just convinces me more that I'm not people.
>It’s probably hard to see the green-on-black terminal while wearing sunglasses in your neon-lit office cubicle
My vision is augmented.
My vision is augmented.
I used those green-on-black terminals for a while before getting my hands on Windows 3.11, and I remember it being very bright the first time I tried it.
I quickly got used to the brighter themes, and I felt more "awake" and able to focus more.
Over time though, I've reverted back to using mostly darker themes, but only for my personal computer.
At work it's all fully light themes.
Not really. Batman uses dark mode. Crime never sleeps man, things look different in the bat cave at 3am, trust me.
Agreed about Matrix type themes, that's something the joker would use and is obviously cursed - but it ain't proper dark mode.
Agreed about Matrix type themes, that's something the joker would use and is obviously cursed - but it ain't proper dark mode.
Back when UI apps were first made, screen brightness was pretty abysmal. Thats why white was chosen.
Today screens are so insanely bright that you either have to add a red filter, turn down the brightness, work in a bright room, or use dark mode.
Today screens are so insanely bright that you either have to add a red filter, turn down the brightness, work in a bright room, or use dark mode.
Work in bright room is THE answer.
It goof for your eye (it is natural!), it is very good for your seasonal depression (if you live in high latitudes, like Canada, North Europe, etc), and now it is easy to achieve with sunlike LEDs.
It was a problem not so long ago,vwhen you needed a lot of expensive CFL lights, like Philips Graphica series with good (expensive) electronic ballast to avoid flicker.
Now it is much easier and cheaper, you only need to sacrifice estetics :-)
It goof for your eye (it is natural!), it is very good for your seasonal depression (if you live in high latitudes, like Canada, North Europe, etc), and now it is easy to achieve with sunlike LEDs.
It was a problem not so long ago,vwhen you needed a lot of expensive CFL lights, like Philips Graphica series with good (expensive) electronic ballast to avoid flicker.
Now it is much easier and cheaper, you only need to sacrifice estetics :-)
Good grief this is narrow minded. Obviously we cannot limit all usage of screens to doing work in a bright room (and during the day presumably - you don't really want to have a sunlamp turned on next to you at midnight).
We, as very high-paid professionals, should ask for most ergonomic workspaces. We (or our employers) spent thousands of dollars for latest macbooks, cool chairs, motorized stand-up desks, etc. Light is no less important than that.
All the best conditions for «computer opetators» were studied in details in 1990s, really. What should be lighting conditions, what should be desk hight, which distance between screen and keyboard (say hello to laptops), etc. It is not a rocket surgery, all data are available, there is standards and recommendations («codes») in each developed country. It is shown, that proper workplace could double productivity, for both lathe machinist and computer user.
And why sunlike lamp wil be turnedvon next to me in midnight if I'm at home, in the bedroom (presumably) and not in my working place (on site or remote, it doesn't matter)?
You work from your bed? I have bad news for future your neck, back and hands.
Enthusiasm of people who throw away all this research and work from beanbags in the twilight with laptop on their hips astonishes me.
All the best conditions for «computer opetators» were studied in details in 1990s, really. What should be lighting conditions, what should be desk hight, which distance between screen and keyboard (say hello to laptops), etc. It is not a rocket surgery, all data are available, there is standards and recommendations («codes») in each developed country. It is shown, that proper workplace could double productivity, for both lathe machinist and computer user.
And why sunlike lamp wil be turnedvon next to me in midnight if I'm at home, in the bedroom (presumably) and not in my working place (on site or remote, it doesn't matter)?
You work from your bed? I have bad news for future your neck, back and hands.
Enthusiasm of people who throw away all this research and work from beanbags in the twilight with laptop on their hips astonishes me.
Me personally? I'm basically terminals everywhere. Whether it's work or play. Office, living room, bedroom, bathroom, on the train, at a bar, you name it. 2pm or 2am, I want a terminal and a browser. You better believe I'm not going to be in light mode and sitting under a sun lamp all the time.
Edit: ok I do use apps other than a terminal and a browser on occasion. An ebook reader for instance. A great example. If I'm reading a book in bed before I sleep I'm going to do it in dark mode. Don't want the extra lumens before bed.
Edit: ok I do use apps other than a terminal and a browser on occasion. An ebook reader for instance. A great example. If I'm reading a book in bed before I sleep I'm going to do it in dark mode. Don't want the extra lumens before bed.
no standard recommends illuminating workplaces at natural 10-kilolux levels for lathe machinists or computer users; most monitors are unusable in such an environment
I don't say it is always possible — I've spent 1.5 years changing rented places almost monthly, with only small laptop, without office to visit, as I fled from my country due to start of war.
First thing I bought when I settle on new place were chair, table, monitor and light.
But it (and dark mode) should be exception, not rule.
Many of us refuse to use 5+ year laptop, but why do we agree to crappy workspace and invent dark mode instead?
First thing I bought when I settle on new place were chair, table, monitor and light.
But it (and dark mode) should be exception, not rule.
Many of us refuse to use 5+ year laptop, but why do we agree to crappy workspace and invent dark mode instead?
When I sit in the sun with my laptop, like outside in a cafe, I need to have everything on the brightest setting and light mode, and then I can see well. It feels great, too.
As someone who has had laser eye surgery and now apparently has permanently drier eyes my life is an indication that bright mode is worse for the eyes. If I sit in a bright room with a bright monitor my eyes hurt at the end of the day. Most of the time I don't notice it consciously during the day but the pain starts after the day is over. If I sit in a fairly dark room all day with low monitor brightness my eyes don't end up hurting. It's just how it is for me now, I wish I could sit in a bright room all day and simply turn the brightness higher on my monitor but it doesn't work.
the sunlike levels that are natural and can affect your seasonal depression are 10 kilolux and up; direct sunlight is 100 kilolux. typical indoor illuminance levels (one bright lightbulb per ten square meters or so, such as a 100-watt incandescent or 10-watt led) are closer to 80 lux: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lux#Illuminance
from this, you can easily calculate that, to illuminate the room to natural, seasonal-depression-affecting levels, you need on the order of 100 lightbulbs in a room that size, which will produce about a kilowatt of heat, similar to an electric space heater ('bar fire' in the uk)
(to calculate it another way, a lux is a lumen per square meter, a 10m² room has about 60m² of surface area, and a typical bright lightbulb emits 1000 lumens, so assuming no directionality and black walls and ceiling, you'd need about 600 of them to reach 10 kilolux. you need less than that because the walls do in fact reflect most of the light that falls on them and the bulbs do in fact have some directionality)
this is clearly an achievable project, and there are several people who have done it, and they report good results. however, 99% of the people reading this comment have never in their lives seen a room illuminated this brightly except through a large skylight, such as in a greenhouse
i've thought about undertaking it myself, but with a couple of tweaks:
- rather than illuminating an entire room to daylight levels, i'd like to try using one of those indoor grow closet things that people sell for growing marijuana, one that's big enough to sit inside of. that way i can use only a few thousand lumens instead of hundreds of thousands of lumens, which greatly reduces not only the materials cost but also the heat removal problem
- lumens are more than an order of magnitude cheaper from fluorescent tubes (not cfl lights—the straight tubes) than from leds, and though the efficiency suffers, it only suffers marginally
- light-emitting monitors, even the current ones whose brightness people are complaining about, are not bright enough for comfortable reading in outdoor environments; if you want to use a computer in there, you need a transflective or reflective screen of some kind
if you're interested in undertaking this project for yourself, my past notes and calculations on the subject are in https://dercuano.github.io/notes/10klux-led.html and https://dercuano.github.io/notes/illumination-cost.html
from this, you can easily calculate that, to illuminate the room to natural, seasonal-depression-affecting levels, you need on the order of 100 lightbulbs in a room that size, which will produce about a kilowatt of heat, similar to an electric space heater ('bar fire' in the uk)
(to calculate it another way, a lux is a lumen per square meter, a 10m² room has about 60m² of surface area, and a typical bright lightbulb emits 1000 lumens, so assuming no directionality and black walls and ceiling, you'd need about 600 of them to reach 10 kilolux. you need less than that because the walls do in fact reflect most of the light that falls on them and the bulbs do in fact have some directionality)
this is clearly an achievable project, and there are several people who have done it, and they report good results. however, 99% of the people reading this comment have never in their lives seen a room illuminated this brightly except through a large skylight, such as in a greenhouse
i've thought about undertaking it myself, but with a couple of tweaks:
- rather than illuminating an entire room to daylight levels, i'd like to try using one of those indoor grow closet things that people sell for growing marijuana, one that's big enough to sit inside of. that way i can use only a few thousand lumens instead of hundreds of thousands of lumens, which greatly reduces not only the materials cost but also the heat removal problem
- lumens are more than an order of magnitude cheaper from fluorescent tubes (not cfl lights—the straight tubes) than from leds, and though the efficiency suffers, it only suffers marginally
- light-emitting monitors, even the current ones whose brightness people are complaining about, are not bright enough for comfortable reading in outdoor environments; if you want to use a computer in there, you need a transflective or reflective screen of some kind
if you're interested in undertaking this project for yourself, my past notes and calculations on the subject are in https://dercuano.github.io/notes/10klux-led.html and https://dercuano.github.io/notes/illumination-cost.html
That's not true. UIs became light when CRT monitors became capable enough to display bright light colors, which people preferred due to resembling printed paper. Before that it was all white/gray/green text on black/dark blue backgrounds. E.g., DOS vs Windows. And people were adding filters to their CRT screens due to fearing brightness and radiation. Ofc, it was the flicker that actually made people's eyes tired, but filters have been common at least since the 90s, and mostly snake oil.
Today's screens aren't insanely bright at all, due to auto-brightness setting, with devices able to detect the ambient lighting and adjust. You can also control the color temperature depending on tone of day, which became a standard feature. It's not 100% perfect, but has been working well for me with iOS, Android or macOS devices.
Today's screens aren't insanely bright at all, due to auto-brightness setting, with devices able to detect the ambient lighting and adjust. You can also control the color temperature depending on tone of day, which became a standard feature. It's not 100% perfect, but has been working well for me with iOS, Android or macOS devices.
Yeah, I massively simplified the history for the sake of my argument.
My monitors at home and at work do not detect ambient light, and some of them are ridiculously expensive! They, turned up to the highest brightness or even the default (80%?) are much brighter than older screens.
I used to run an older screen and a new one next to each other, and the difference was very notable. Of course they ended up being the same brightness because I changed their settings, but by default, the new one was brighter (because it could).
My monitors at home and at work do not detect ambient light, and some of them are ridiculously expensive! They, turned up to the highest brightness or even the default (80%?) are much brighter than older screens.
I used to run an older screen and a new one next to each other, and the difference was very notable. Of course they ended up being the same brightness because I changed their settings, but by default, the new one was brighter (because it could).
> turn down the brightness
Which is easy, works in all OS, does not require any work from the developer and/or designers and solves the problem at the individual level instead of forcing some type of cultural fight.
Which is easy, works in all OS, does not require any work from the developer and/or designers and solves the problem at the individual level instead of forcing some type of cultural fight.
> turn down the brightness
That is the correct answer.
Hold a sheet of paper next to the display when it‘s showing a white (notepad windows or so). Is the display brighter than the paper? It‘s too bright.
At home, the brightness of my display is set to 0 (zero!). At work, it‘s at around 15 and 20. It depends on the display.
Looks weird for fifteen minutes, after that you never want to go back to "burning my eyes out with an energy beam".
That is the correct answer.
Hold a sheet of paper next to the display when it‘s showing a white (notepad windows or so). Is the display brighter than the paper? It‘s too bright.
At home, the brightness of my display is set to 0 (zero!). At work, it‘s at around 15 and 20. It depends on the display.
Looks weird for fifteen minutes, after that you never want to go back to "burning my eyes out with an energy beam".
Turning down the brightness also makes monitors last longer.
LCD TVs and the like often come with the brightness set to the maximum, which is good for impressing people in a brightly-lit showroom but horrible for longevity and comfort.
LCD TVs and the like often come with the brightness set to the maximum, which is good for impressing people in a brightly-lit showroom but horrible for longevity and comfort.
> Hold a sheet of paper next to the display when it‘s showing a white
Tried this, this is a perfect idea. It doesn't work on my laptop (I'm not surprised) but now my desktop monitor is perfectly set. Thank you.
Tried this, this is a perfect idea. It doesn't work on my laptop (I'm not surprised) but now my desktop monitor is perfectly set. Thank you.
As a proud member of the Dark Mode Lobby, I share my favorite HN theme with my fellow crusaders in darkness: https://github.com/pyxelr/hacker-news-bluish-gray
In all seriousness, this article is as obnoxious as the dark mode zealots. Theme choices are a personal preference, and claiming any sort of objective benefits from either choice is ridiculous. Saying light mode is somehow better, and quoting dubious research to back it up, is the same argument in reverse.
Just give your users the option to choose whatever look they prefer, as customization is always good, and use whatever you like. And both sides should... lighten up. :)
In all seriousness, this article is as obnoxious as the dark mode zealots. Theme choices are a personal preference, and claiming any sort of objective benefits from either choice is ridiculous. Saying light mode is somehow better, and quoting dubious research to back it up, is the same argument in reverse.
Just give your users the option to choose whatever look they prefer, as customization is always good, and use whatever you like. And both sides should... lighten up. :)
It’s a shame you believe that a blog post on someone’s personal repeated experiences (as reflected in other people’s comments in this thread) is somehow comparable to dark mode zealotry and regular comments/personal attacks about non-dark mode.
I'm sorry you've had bad personal experiences with what sounds like shitty people, but that has nothing to do with UI theme choices, or the existence of a "Dark Mode Lobby".
Your post is confusing as it mixes memes with serious personal experiences, and counterarguments based on the same shaky premises of opinions you're arguing against.
Your post is confusing as it mixes memes with serious personal experiences, and counterarguments based on the same shaky premises of opinions you're arguing against.
Like most older programmers, I have some astigmatism - not even that bad, apparently.
(A majority of adults in Europe and Asia also have it.)
One of the side-effects is that light on dark text is harder to read. And now a lot of people seem to use light grey on dark grey, which I can barely read at all, and more, use images of their program instead of text, so tools that rewrite webpages for better contrast can't help.
But mentioning this in a comment thread often gets a wave of abuse. I avoid the temptation to say, "If you're lucky, one day you'll be old like me."
If you want people over 40 to read your writing, please figure out a way to give us a "light mode"! "Today you, tomorrow me."
(A majority of adults in Europe and Asia also have it.)
One of the side-effects is that light on dark text is harder to read. And now a lot of people seem to use light grey on dark grey, which I can barely read at all, and more, use images of their program instead of text, so tools that rewrite webpages for better contrast can't help.
But mentioning this in a comment thread often gets a wave of abuse. I avoid the temptation to say, "If you're lucky, one day you'll be old like me."
If you want people over 40 to read your writing, please figure out a way to give us a "light mode"! "Today you, tomorrow me."
This.
I've used some dark themes in code editors for 2-3 years about 5 years ago (the decades before had been light themes only, well, actually the default Emacs one, lightly customised) and finally switched back as I realised that I can read a 1pt smaller font better if in light mode than the same but bigger font in dark mode, I permanently switched back to light themes.
And when it's dark outside I just turn on the lights in the room.
I've used some dark themes in code editors for 2-3 years about 5 years ago (the decades before had been light themes only, well, actually the default Emacs one, lightly customised) and finally switched back as I realised that I can read a 1pt smaller font better if in light mode than the same but bigger font in dark mode, I permanently switched back to light themes.
And when it's dark outside I just turn on the lights in the room.
I can strongly relate, as I have a mild astigmatism that only really is noticeable at large distances or at night.
In the list of related literature I include a paper that found light on dark text is harder to read for contrast reasons.
In the list of related literature I include a paper that found light on dark text is harder to read for contrast reasons.
What a ridiculous thing to care about. Just use whatever you think looks good. Jeez.
I think that is what the author is trying to say to some degree, hence their call to bring back themes.
I agree with the author’s article; it’s not that it’s a never ending torrent of dark mode zealotry, but at least for apps i’ve maintained, one of the first and most zealously pursued requests was always dark mode, even when theming options existed.
I prefer other color schemes and themes; not all white but mixture of softer colors — i have a language syntax file for np++ with lots of soft pastels and coloring for .log files that i prefer as it’s more gentle on my eyes. Usually i can get this with themes or ui hacks (e.g replacing assets when possible), but I’d never pursue such modes as diligently as dark mode enthusiasts do.
i don’t quite see the larger esoteric dilemma on binary design choices like the author did, but i’ve had the same experience of persons trying to “call me out” for not using dark mode in that “joking but seriously why are you doing that” sort of ways; the words were spoken with jest, but the conversation dragged on far past a friendly jab about not using dark mode and just became annoying. It’s probably the only feature with such zealousness and such low usage from my experience, and i also find the evidence of it being “better” very much so specious. Nothing against someone who wants dark mode a lot, that’s fine, just enough with the drama about it
I agree with the author’s article; it’s not that it’s a never ending torrent of dark mode zealotry, but at least for apps i’ve maintained, one of the first and most zealously pursued requests was always dark mode, even when theming options existed.
I prefer other color schemes and themes; not all white but mixture of softer colors — i have a language syntax file for np++ with lots of soft pastels and coloring for .log files that i prefer as it’s more gentle on my eyes. Usually i can get this with themes or ui hacks (e.g replacing assets when possible), but I’d never pursue such modes as diligently as dark mode enthusiasts do.
i don’t quite see the larger esoteric dilemma on binary design choices like the author did, but i’ve had the same experience of persons trying to “call me out” for not using dark mode in that “joking but seriously why are you doing that” sort of ways; the words were spoken with jest, but the conversation dragged on far past a friendly jab about not using dark mode and just became annoying. It’s probably the only feature with such zealousness and such low usage from my experience, and i also find the evidence of it being “better” very much so specious. Nothing against someone who wants dark mode a lot, that’s fine, just enough with the drama about it
If everyone thought like this, I suppose the author wouldn't have felt the need to write the article.
I've been using light themes for some time now, after years of dark mode-ing everything. It actually works better for my eyes, at least where I'm able to set the background to be just a bit off-white. And like the author, when I've pasted screenshots into discussions, I've received jokes about my choice. You know, the gifs about people in dark rooms being blasted with light from their monitor. And ironically jokes about eyes burning, when this is friendlier to my eyes than dark mode was.
I've been using light themes for some time now, after years of dark mode-ing everything. It actually works better for my eyes, at least where I'm able to set the background to be just a bit off-white. And like the author, when I've pasted screenshots into discussions, I've received jokes about my choice. You know, the gifs about people in dark rooms being blasted with light from their monitor. And ironically jokes about eyes burning, when this is friendlier to my eyes than dark mode was.
My comment was aimed both at the author and the "dark mode lobby" they are complaining about.
Seriously, it's your computer, just use whatever setup you prefer. If someone comments, make fun of them for caring about what you use on your machine.
Seriously, it's your computer, just use whatever setup you prefer. If someone comments, make fun of them for caring about what you use on your machine.
> Seriously, it's your computer, just use whatever setup you prefer
The problem is that many websites simply turn on dark mode without checking what my OS/browser is configured for. That is really annoying.
The problem is that many websites simply turn on dark mode without checking what my OS/browser is configured for. That is really annoying.
It's almost as annoying as the fact that nearly every application and website uses light theme by default and often don't even provide a dark theme (Hacker News included).
While I don't discount the possibility of their existence, I've yet to personally encounter an application or web site that only has a dark theme, so the "dark mode only" complaint rings like the perennial "War on Christmas" rant.
While I don't discount the possibility of their existence, I've yet to personally encounter an application or web site that only has a dark theme, so the "dark mode only" complaint rings like the perennial "War on Christmas" rant.
The point of the article, which I hope you did in fact read, is that some sites force dark mode on the user, so "just use whatever setup you prefer" doesn't work.
This is particularly hard now when many sites use images of program code in order to get syntactic highlighting, because your page rewriting extensions do nothing.
This is particularly hard now when many sites use images of program code in order to get syntactic highlighting, because your page rewriting extensions do nothing.
> The point of the article, which I hope you did in fact read, is that some sites force dark mode on the user
You mean like just about literally every website (except a few that got shit for being 90s-era design) that forced bright backgrounds on users for the better part of 15 years or so before "dark mode" became a thing?
You mean like just about literally every website (except a few that got shit for being 90s-era design) that forced bright backgrounds on users for the better part of 15 years or so before "dark mode" became a thing?
> The point of the article, which I hope you did in fact read, is that some sites force dark mode on the user
No, it isn't. The article is complaining about people who complain about the author's choice of light mode. Nowhere does it mention any site or application that only supports dark mode.
No, it isn't. The article is complaining about people who complain about the author's choice of light mode. Nowhere does it mention any site or application that only supports dark mode.
The article is making fun of them. Is that not obvious?
You're not getting it. People don't make fun, they complain about images using light theme, supposedly because it's hard on their eyes, dark mode now considered by many the neutral/inclusive choice. Which is bullshit, especially for people with astigmatism.
I have astigmatism and 24/7 dark mode. Let’s not generalise.
Dark mode produces the halation effect in many people that have astigmatism. This varies between individuals, much like the severity scale for astigmatism.
I said that dark mode is not a neutral/inclusive choice, especially for people with astigmatism. If dark mode doesn't affect you, good for you, but the statement is factually correct.
I said that dark mode is not a neutral/inclusive choice, especially for people with astigmatism. If dark mode doesn't affect you, good for you, but the statement is factually correct.
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Bring back theming. It used to be that most applications would respect user color preferences. I like the old "Hot Dog Stand"[0] theme from Windows 3.1, because it's an implicit acknowledgement that it's not the OS's job to enforce good taste. User freedom is more important.
[0] https://blog.codinghorror.com/a-tribute-to-the-windows-31-ho...
[0] https://blog.codinghorror.com/a-tribute-to-the-windows-31-ho...
And ironically, system colors are also the default colors on the web (at least they used to in Firefox), therefore they're literally the first thing that gets overwritten when first lines of CSS for a project appear .
After all these years, I like my terminals in monochrome, but I expect GUIs to be "light mode".
To each its own, but don't get me started on syntax highlighting, everybody seems to enjoy their terminal prompts looking like a lit christmas tree!
To each its own, but don't get me started on syntax highlighting, everybody seems to enjoy their terminal prompts looking like a lit christmas tree!
Hold on, do people use light mode in terminals?
I always set mine to black on a fairly light (192) grey, or sometimes grey with a hint of red (192, 160, 160)
Thanks - I will give it a try! The lightest I have ever used was MS DOS blue (#0000FF).
It's even default on MacOS
I did for years and still would if some terminal applications didn't assume otherwise and make some bits of text illegible because of a lack of contrast.
Thankfully some terminals come with an "enhance contrast" feature to help distinguish too similar colors between foreground and background.
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/terminal/customize...
https://conemu.github.io/en/SettingsColors.html#id3056
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/terminal/customize...
https://conemu.github.io/en/SettingsColors.html#id3056
First I've seen of this, really interesting - thanks!
I do. I keep switching between browser, IDE and terminals; the first two are in light mode, if I used dark mode on the terminal the switch would be quite annoying.
The drawback is that some modern tool hardcode the colors assuming that I have a black background, making some text hard to read (especially light-yellow "warning")
The drawback is that some modern tool hardcode the colors assuming that I have a black background, making some text hard to read (especially light-yellow "warning")
Yes, I use the "Novel" theme in macOS's Terminal, doesn't hurt my eyes and handles regular terminal/ls/etc colors properly. It's not quite "light" but definitely not "dark".
Whether content is easier on the eyes depends also on environmental lighting and monitor brightness/type. For some setups large areas of light content is more fatiguing on eyes, especially with poorer eyesight and when body text is overwhelmed by whitespace, so it can literally make reading more difficult and likely to even get ignored/bounced (speaking from my own experience).
Browsers have thankfully accommodated for such subjective preferences even without site theme choices though via reader modes and userstyles (whether browser or user-forced).
Browsers have thankfully accommodated for such subjective preferences even without site theme choices though via reader modes and userstyles (whether browser or user-forced).
Big fan of dark mode, but i didn’t think people get this zealous.
Also a big fan of apps that respect my system settings and don’t hide the option somewhere, so if i’m out in bright sunlight i can easily turn it off
Also a big fan of apps that respect my system settings and don’t hide the option somewhere, so if i’m out in bright sunlight i can easily turn it off
I think that dark mode is the best mode. I simply observe the degree of eye strain I experience and this has always seemed obvious to me:
* In a brightly lit environment, light mode is preferable, but dark mode is serviceable.
* In a dimly lit environment, dark mode is preferable, whereas light mode can be downright painful.
So I run light mode during the day and dark mode during the evening/night, but if I had to choose one it'd be dark mode, because it never actually hurts my eyes to look at it.
As an aside, night time screen usage used to keep me awake. When I started reducing my screens to very low brightness levels (sometimes even lower than what the manufacturer provides settings for), that problem went away. Don't quote me but I may have run across some research at one point talking about how total lumen exposure has much more impact on your sleep than the red light/blue light thing.
But if you don't get it and you want to hurt your eyes, hurt my eyes, and inflict insomnia on everybody, well you can be like this guy who writes snarky posts about his Discord pals I guess.
* In a brightly lit environment, light mode is preferable, but dark mode is serviceable.
* In a dimly lit environment, dark mode is preferable, whereas light mode can be downright painful.
So I run light mode during the day and dark mode during the evening/night, but if I had to choose one it'd be dark mode, because it never actually hurts my eyes to look at it.
As an aside, night time screen usage used to keep me awake. When I started reducing my screens to very low brightness levels (sometimes even lower than what the manufacturer provides settings for), that problem went away. Don't quote me but I may have run across some research at one point talking about how total lumen exposure has much more impact on your sleep than the red light/blue light thing.
But if you don't get it and you want to hurt your eyes, hurt my eyes, and inflict insomnia on everybody, well you can be like this guy who writes snarky posts about his Discord pals I guess.
I simply need dark mode for nearly everything as otherwise I see floaters/mouches volantes [0] starting seconds after starring at white/light backgrounds. The same also happens to me when looking at natural light, like the sky during the day. That’s why I am known as the winter-sunglasses-man in my bubble.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floater
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floater
I have bad eye floaters too, have you given any thought to a vitrectomy? I keep reading the literature and watching youtube videos, haven't made a final decision on it yet but am getting more tempted.
Just wondering if you have any thoughts.
Just wondering if you have any thoughts.
I haven’t considered it. There was a small time frame where I thought these are "serious" conditions which worsens my ability to see over time, but apparently it’s just a normal thing and I know that I usually react overly sensitive to "anything". Like in: if an average persons says that a cup of tea is warm, I’d say it’s hot. I try to put most things I encounter in/on me to this perspective and it massively helped me calming down over these things. I just stopped attributing floaters (amongst other things) any brain time and since then I basically forgot I have them.
Ah, mine are not something that I can possibly forget, they're very visible and intrusive. I've cut down on computer use a lot because of it, they're very irritating and prominent.
It seems Dark Mode vs Light Mode is the "modern" equivalent of emacs vs vi?
We used to call it “themes”, a term that encapsulated a wide array of design options and user preferences. Now, we have “modes” as if those preferences can simply be boiled down to a binary choice. Sure, the usage of the word “theme” hasn’t vanished, but it’s certainly taken a backseat to the narrow-minded focus on only giving users a choice between light and dark user interfaces.
I remember when UIs defaulted neither to "light" nor "dark", but were a neutral gray; look at Windows from 95 through 2000, and Mac OS from 8 through 10.x.
We used to call it “themes”, a term that encapsulated a wide array of design options and user preferences. Now, we have “modes” as if those preferences can simply be boiled down to a binary choice. Sure, the usage of the word “theme” hasn’t vanished, but it’s certainly taken a backseat to the narrow-minded focus on only giving users a choice between light and dark user interfaces.
I remember when UIs defaulted neither to "light" nor "dark", but were a neutral gray; look at Windows from 95 through 2000, and Mac OS from 8 through 10.x.
Yep! I wanted to add a couple of screenshots of OSs and applications that have theme pickers but wasn’t sure if it would confuse the article. Perhaps I’ll update it.
I usually use dark text on white. But things are changing. Getting older means I need glasses to read text.
What has changed over the years:
* usage times of modern screens goes way up: watch (very bright OLED with tiny screen), phone (OLED), tablets (very bright Mini LED) , laptops (very bright Mini LED, LCD), desktop monitors (LCD) and a desktop TV (OLED) connected to a computer
* most are high-res screens
* shorter viewing distances
* lots of video conferences and usage of networked software
* darker surroundings in home office especially during winter, brighter surroundings during summer. I have the OS switches modes based on day time / brightness.
* eye fatigue after a long day looking at screens, brightness sensitivity during illness caused by infection
In darker surroundings, at home, in the evening, I prefer nowadays white text on black backgrounds. For example an OLED TV as a desktop monitor.
For home-office work I bought a bright desk LED lamp (max 5000lm) with lots of indirect light. The quality of LED lamps has increased lately (no flicker, dimming and color modes, auto dimming, lots of indirect light, networked, can be configured with an app). I like that a lot. There I don't use dark modes. I also have increase usage of pen+paper for notes.
What has changed over the years:
* usage times of modern screens goes way up: watch (very bright OLED with tiny screen), phone (OLED), tablets (very bright Mini LED) , laptops (very bright Mini LED, LCD), desktop monitors (LCD) and a desktop TV (OLED) connected to a computer
* most are high-res screens
* shorter viewing distances
* lots of video conferences and usage of networked software
* darker surroundings in home office especially during winter, brighter surroundings during summer. I have the OS switches modes based on day time / brightness.
* eye fatigue after a long day looking at screens, brightness sensitivity during illness caused by infection
In darker surroundings, at home, in the evening, I prefer nowadays white text on black backgrounds. For example an OLED TV as a desktop monitor.
For home-office work I bought a bright desk LED lamp (max 5000lm) with lots of indirect light. The quality of LED lamps has increased lately (no flicker, dimming and color modes, auto dimming, lots of indirect light, networked, can be configured with an app). I like that a lot. There I don't use dark modes. I also have increase usage of pen+paper for notes.
Light sensitivity is a thing. https://www.milaneyecenter.com/resources/a-guide-to-light-se....
This discussion and article come across deeply offensive.
This discussion and article come across deeply offensive.
Wait, you’re offended for yourself because the author describes how he was harassed at work?
”In one former (and brief and very toxic job), a manager and one of his lackeys suggested that my usage of light mode was indicative of a lack of professionalism and seriousness about my work, as if this choice somehow reflected on my competence”
”In one former (and brief and very toxic job), a manager and one of his lackeys suggested that my usage of light mode was indicative of a lack of professionalism and seriousness about my work, as if this choice somehow reflected on my competence”
Indeed, it seems they cherry picked random sentences and chose to be offended.
Taking it to its conclusion (had they bothered to read the article) they would realise that the article is about dark mode zealots not dark mode users (of which I sometimes am, and I have astigmatism).
People really are reading half articles these days.
I even provide a link to a paper on this too.
Taking it to its conclusion (had they bothered to read the article) they would realise that the article is about dark mode zealots not dark mode users (of which I sometimes am, and I have astigmatism).
People really are reading half articles these days.
I even provide a link to a paper on this too.
You have to actually draw in the reader to keep their attention.
I cannot and will not accommodate everyone's sensitive sensibilities. You not reading the rest is on you.
As someone who had cataracts and even after the corrective operations still has the significant sensitivity to glare, dark mode is not just a nice-to-have, but an absolute necessity for me.
I.e. it's an accessibility issue to some people, so don't laugh it off as "just a preference" or try to beat down any disagreeing voices with studies on only healthy eyes.
I.e. it's an accessibility issue to some people, so don't laugh it off as "just a preference" or try to beat down any disagreeing voices with studies on only healthy eyes.
I am the author and I have astigmatism, part way through I explain that I don’t mind dark mode at all. I mind the zealotry.
Only tangentially related. But I am so thankful for dark themes becoming more common due to personal light sensitivity issues. Usually I keep my office dimly lit as part of this. It has its own downsides (who wants to sit in the dark) however.
People should 100% use what they prefer. I have a good friend who uses light themes for everything. We don’t rib each other (too much) over it.
If anyone has experience with light sensitivity issues though I’d love to hear any advice or thoughts. Daylight is one thing but monitors, which I need for work, destroy me.
People should 100% use what they prefer. I have a good friend who uses light themes for everything. We don’t rib each other (too much) over it.
If anyone has experience with light sensitivity issues though I’d love to hear any advice or thoughts. Daylight is one thing but monitors, which I need for work, destroy me.
Don’t be afraid to wear sunglasses indoors with the lights down/off. Screens actually get darker past turning the brightness to zero by decreasing the sharpness. And be firm about getting up every twenty minutes and looking away from the screen for at least 20 seconds. I still wind up wearing an eye mask on the couch after work many nights.
Here’s my take: the simple reason this topic is coming up more and more, is that new monitors are brighter and sharper than old ones. It’s more (un)comfortable than ever with a bad theme.
Yup. On todays monitors, 100% white is akin to staring into the sun. I have my monitor usually turned down to 15-30% brightness.
I dislike dark mode because I have to use a laptop with the shittiest reflective screen ever made (Dell for ref). Anything dark and I can see myself better than what is on the screen.
I have a hunch that a lot of complaining about "light mode" is because people's monitors are too bright.
I always make sure that my monitors are set so that a full white screen is comfortable to look at indefinitely. (With this in mind I find I enjoy light mode themes more than dark mode ones. YMMW. (Obviously blacks should be close to real black with this setup for proper contrast. All in all, a well calibrated monitor should be a joy to look at no matter the color theme.))
I always make sure that my monitors are set so that a full white screen is comfortable to look at indefinitely. (With this in mind I find I enjoy light mode themes more than dark mode ones. YMMW. (Obviously blacks should be close to real black with this setup for proper contrast. All in all, a well calibrated monitor should be a joy to look at no matter the color theme.))
I don't think some other software developer should be the reason why I have to change my (calibrated) monitor settings. So "just" turning down brightness is not really an option, it's at correct settings it's just that some software over-utilizes white.
A crutch bypass to that is switching on HDR from system settings and turning down SDR content's brightness. It'll display the dull white the developer most likely intended while also not breaking software (and media) that does colour better.
A crutch bypass to that is switching on HDR from system settings and turning down SDR content's brightness. It'll display the dull white the developer most likely intended while also not breaking software (and media) that does colour better.
Similar recent post on Irreal: https://irreal.org/blog/?p=8663
Personally I have found dark modes with color schemes like, say, Dracula are visually pleasing immediately but over time become tedious and I notice a pattern of decreased mood that doesn't happen with light modes. So, I use software that adjust screen light based on the time of day rather than dark modes.
Personally I have found dark modes with color schemes like, say, Dracula are visually pleasing immediately but over time become tedious and I notice a pattern of decreased mood that doesn't happen with light modes. So, I use software that adjust screen light based on the time of day rather than dark modes.
Laugh all you want, but my laptop has terrible retention issues.
Using web sites as an example I can say this: Light mode web sites that I find unreadable are quite scarce. However, the vast majority of dark mode web sites is utterly unreadable for me, although the rare exception does exist. This leads me to believe that the consequences of design incompetence are way harsher with dark mode than with light mode. If you have to have dark mode, at least offer people a choice to switch to light mode.
Huh, I really like and use dark mode everywhere, and I'm often the one receiving strange looks and comments about it. But I don't care, in fact I like it because that means we have a choice and we can discuss about it.
And yes, I admit I have used that "oh no, it burns!" joke when someone shares the screen and everything is white :P but until now it makes _me_ look like the odd one
And yes, I admit I have used that "oh no, it burns!" joke when someone shares the screen and everything is white :P but until now it makes _me_ look like the odd one
I think the post would be less
controversial if the author had chosen a title like „I hate dark mode lobbying“ (instead of „lobby“, which has not so simple semantics in my opinion) and omitted that last paragraph with arguments for light mode.
Light mode is too bright, but dark mode is too dark. What we need is a 3rd lobby.
I like pastel colourschemes e.g. https://github.com/catppuccin/catppuccin.
Remember when you could set the color of individual display elements any which way you liked? The 'theme' idea of giving the users what they want, by giving them the controls was far superior to this mode nonsense. Don't like pale light blue highlighting against a white background? Oh! Try 'dark mode'! Charcoal grey against black is sooo much better. Why does anyone even have to choose between exactly This or exactly That in the first place?
Yes, I was tempted to include some screenshots of various OS and application theme editors but I was worried it would be too confusing in the context.
Isn't dark mode part of being green (or greenwashing)? By making their product or website dark by default, a company can claim to save energy and hence the planet. Maybe it can go in some report somewhere about "what we do to reduce emissions". Similarly, system clocks don't show seconds.
I don't object to this as a default, so long as it's optional. It probably works as intended at saving whatever tiny fraction of world energy use.
Speaking of green things, I faintly remember green and amber monochrome monitors being marketed as reducing eyestrain. I assume white phosphor was more expensive, or just couldn't be used as a gimmick.
I don't object to this as a default, so long as it's optional. It probably works as intended at saving whatever tiny fraction of world energy use.
Speaking of green things, I faintly remember green and amber monochrome monitors being marketed as reducing eyestrain. I assume white phosphor was more expensive, or just couldn't be used as a gimmick.
I typically use light themes for work and dark themes for personal use - I find it enforces a nice mental separation between work and home.
I left dark mode forever once I realized that light mode drastically reduces the general problem of monitor glare.
I hate what dark mode did to the web. This is a plague https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/@media/pref...
The values are only "light" and "dark." What If I prefer a blue color scheme? Or green? Or even pink? We don't get that for some reason.
By the way I want pumpkin mode. Orange and green. Two colors. It's 2024 we should have the technology to have a theme with two colors by now.
The values are only "light" and "dark." What If I prefer a blue color scheme? Or green? Or even pink? We don't get that for some reason.
By the way I want pumpkin mode. Orange and green. Two colors. It's 2024 we should have the technology to have a theme with two colors by now.
This is exactly what I’m talking about! It’s so frustrating.
I have another one: Vim or Emacs?
"People need to get over themselves and stop giving unsolicited advice and other bullshit about people’s choice of theme."
...says the author of this article.
...says the author of this article.
There is one context where it is legitimate to give unsolicited advice: Projection. Projectors don't work with dark mode and small text. It's frustrating to be in a meeting where someone is clicking around in their projected IDE while you strain yourself to pick up even half of what they are doing.
Is your vision corrected and the room with the projector even remotely suitable for it?
It seems you didn’t read the bullet list or justification at all.
Can't say I did either. Your aggressive tone concerning a topic that I don't have strong views on (at least, not this strong) on made me nope out pretty early.
If you didn't read the article, I'm not entirely sure why you're commenting on it?
Moreso than commenting on the article, I'm sharing my feedback as to why I didn't finish it. Engagement and disengagement is often a metric of interest. I don't feel as though I need to justify myself beyond that.
Disagreeing responses are the most likely responses on the internet.
It’s the type of thing HN is meant to be better at; reading before commenting. I can guess both of them feel strongly about dark mode.
> It’s the type of thing HN is meant to be better at; reading before commenting.
I'm under no obligation to read everything to completion. Your piece gave strong signals of being a poor fit for me, so I disengaged from it. Which is exactly what I said in my comment.
> I can guess both of them feel strongly about dark mode.
Again, this comes across as disproportionately hostile. I've already noted I don't have strong feelings on this topic, but you insist on interpreting everything as partisanship.
I'm under no obligation to read everything to completion. Your piece gave strong signals of being a poor fit for me, so I disengaged from it. Which is exactly what I said in my comment.
> I can guess both of them feel strongly about dark mode.
Again, this comes across as disproportionately hostile. I've already noted I don't have strong feelings on this topic, but you insist on interpreting everything as partisanship.
gjvc(1)
Could I do something to make things easier to my users and they will probably like?
No, it's a lobby to make dark mode happen.
Jesus, it's ridiculous sometimes. You don't even have to force dark mode or anything, but why refuse to offer customization like it's some moral high ground.
No, it's a lobby to make dark mode happen.
Jesus, it's ridiculous sometimes. You don't even have to force dark mode or anything, but why refuse to offer customization like it's some moral high ground.
This is the type of entitlement that I allude to in the article and it’s why I’m disinclined to add dark mode.
The author misses the point that most of these "zealots" don't want everything to be dark. They want everything to have the option to be viewed in light or dark mode, which is fair
No, they specifically said they have no objection to the option of dark mode. They defined their zealots as people who won't put up with other people using light mode.
Yes, this is what I was aiming for. Thank you for realising!
True. The "dark mode" button just strikes me as equally childish, though it's obviously a joke in this case.
Well, so what if it’s considered childish.
[deleted]
The issues they point out are fair btw, just criticizing the reaction.
I don’t like the vocal minority that complains about the vocal minority that uses $MODE.
Can we just ignore them all?
Can we just ignore them all?
Reading the article helps avoid gaffes like this comment.
It’s the type of thing HN is meant to be better at; reading before commenting.
gjvc(1)
This is usually associated with dark mode because:
1) on older monitors, even CRTs, black was actually dark gray
2) on a 60Hz CRT, white background was a flicker-fest
But, many of today's dark mode UIs choose a background colour that is too dark, and the result is as shitty as light mode.
That wouldn't be that bad if only OSs and WMs kept the ability to customise theme colours (Windows was good on that side, now not anymore, the only exception out of the common ones is KDE) and if applications actually respected OS style instead of delivering their own theme.