Zero-rupee note(en.wikipedia.org)
en.wikipedia.org
Zero-rupee note
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-rupee_note
81 comments
In a nutshell, the government does not differentiate between bribery and blackmail. "Harassment bribes" is blackmail, plain and simple.
> “harassment bribes” (the ones where the bribe giver does not gain undue advantage)
Isn't that the point of the bribe? Why else would they pay it?
Isn't that the point of the bribe? Why else would they pay it?
Harassment bribe sounds more like if an official were running some sort of unofficial protection racket. But feels like it'd be absurd to punish the bribe giver for that already, considering that the protection racket itself would be illegal.
This paper [1] seems to use the term to describe bribes given to obtain things you're already legally entitled to, which makes a bit more sense. There's an old Indian meme about pensioners having to pay a bribe to get their monthly payment for instance.
[1] https://ideas.repec.org/p/pra/mprapa/50335.html
This paper [1] seems to use the term to describe bribes given to obtain things you're already legally entitled to, which makes a bit more sense. There's an old Indian meme about pensioners having to pay a bribe to get their monthly payment for instance.
[1] https://ideas.repec.org/p/pra/mprapa/50335.html
Because they would otherwise be denied a service or freedom they are legally entitled to. "Undue advantage" is a bribe like "hey choose my company for this lucrative government contract." A harassment bribe is more like "hey here's some money for you to not charge me with a made-up traffic violation", or "hey here's some money in addition to the actual driver's license fee, so that you'll actually do your job and give me my license".
This is quite old and outdated but just to engage with it :
It defeats the whole purpose of a bribe, doesn't it? If officials were gonna be intimidated by a note, there are probably other recourses that would've done the job.
Except none of them have. Officials are obviously aware that bribery is illegal. It's the idea that they "can get away with it" that needs challenging. If it's true, then the agency of the citizen is minimal; it's the agency of the relevant watchdog that needs strengthening.
> Satindar Mohan Bhagat, an Indian expatriate who is a physics professor at the University of Maryland and the director of Association for India's Development, Inc. US, is credited with originating the concept of the zero-rupee note in 2001
I appreciate the sentiment, but it really reflects the disconnect between people who don't live in India and people who do. There is hardly a single bribery situation where this would be useful. The only cure to bribery is knowing more powerful people than the corrupt official - ie, bribery won't work on the elite and well-connected, unless the official is a fairly significant fellow.
In an era where arbitrary income tax raids, "anti-national" accusations or just plain old Kafkaesque "punish them with more process" recourse are what meets people who challenge the regime...hard to see a valueless note gaining traction. If anything, it's a free pass for the official to get you accused of counterfeiting notes. Will it pass it court? no. but you'll be in jail for months before you see a judge. perhaps forever.
It defeats the whole purpose of a bribe, doesn't it? If officials were gonna be intimidated by a note, there are probably other recourses that would've done the job.
Except none of them have. Officials are obviously aware that bribery is illegal. It's the idea that they "can get away with it" that needs challenging. If it's true, then the agency of the citizen is minimal; it's the agency of the relevant watchdog that needs strengthening.
> Satindar Mohan Bhagat, an Indian expatriate who is a physics professor at the University of Maryland and the director of Association for India's Development, Inc. US, is credited with originating the concept of the zero-rupee note in 2001
I appreciate the sentiment, but it really reflects the disconnect between people who don't live in India and people who do. There is hardly a single bribery situation where this would be useful. The only cure to bribery is knowing more powerful people than the corrupt official - ie, bribery won't work on the elite and well-connected, unless the official is a fairly significant fellow.
In an era where arbitrary income tax raids, "anti-national" accusations or just plain old Kafkaesque "punish them with more process" recourse are what meets people who challenge the regime...hard to see a valueless note gaining traction. If anything, it's a free pass for the official to get you accused of counterfeiting notes. Will it pass it court? no. but you'll be in jail for months before you see a judge. perhaps forever.
> it really reflects the disconnect between people who don't live in India and people who do
As well as the disconnect between academics and the real world.
As well as the disconnect between academics and the real world.
I read the article twice but I'm having a hard time imagining how these are supposed to work. How does showing the note to the person that is trying to get bribed differ from just telling them it's wrong and that you won't do it? Usually in those situation you don't really have a choice, like when a cop stops you in the middle of the night. Is it meant to be given in a discrete way, so that the false note is discovered after the supposed bribe?
This is describing a different culture, so your expectations are being confounded. In places bribery is truly pervasive, paying bribes is a habit. You see your parents do it, you see how everyone around you accepts it. Indian (very broadly — this is a stereotype) culture can be less individualistic than the USA, and this makes it even harder to say no to things like this.
It’s like tipping, in the USA — so pervasive that it’s invisible. And these days with digital point-of-sale systems, you have to take affirmative action _not_ to tip, and people in line around you can see, so the social pressure is enormous.
So the note is proof that the person not paying the bribe is not alone, that they are part of a movement, that their actions are acceptable to at least some portion of their society. This makes is feel safer, and puts the onus on the briber to either escalate or to back down.
It also relies on the sense of shame of the briber. Since bribes are commonplace, some civil servants depend on them for their livelihood, or at least their lifestyle. Confronted with the evidence of a social movement saying that their actions are not ok, they’re more likely to feel some shame, versus just feeling anger at a random citizen confronting them.
It’s like tipping, in the USA — so pervasive that it’s invisible. And these days with digital point-of-sale systems, you have to take affirmative action _not_ to tip, and people in line around you can see, so the social pressure is enormous.
So the note is proof that the person not paying the bribe is not alone, that they are part of a movement, that their actions are acceptable to at least some portion of their society. This makes is feel safer, and puts the onus on the briber to either escalate or to back down.
It also relies on the sense of shame of the briber. Since bribes are commonplace, some civil servants depend on them for their livelihood, or at least their lifestyle. Confronted with the evidence of a social movement saying that their actions are not ok, they’re more likely to feel some shame, versus just feeling anger at a random citizen confronting them.
> It also relies on the sense of shame of the briber.
You meant the sense of shame of the person being bribed? I ask to avoid a misunderstanding.
You meant the sense of shame of the person being bribed? I ask to avoid a misunderstanding.
I think they meant the person requesting the bribe payment would be ashamed? Why would the person being pressured to pay a bribe feel shame?
Yeah that's exactly this!
The person requesting the bribe payment = person being bribed or "bribee"
The person paying the bribe = briber
However GP wrote "shame of the briber". Oops!
The person requesting the bribe payment = person being bribed or "bribee"
The person paying the bribe = briber
However GP wrote "shame of the briber". Oops!
>It’s like tipping, in the USA — so pervasive that it’s invisible.
Incidentally giving out fake dollar bills as tip is or was a thing. At least enough for a handful articles:
https://www.businessinsider.com/20-tip-bible-pamphlet-2015-1...
Incidentally giving out fake dollar bills as tip is or was a thing. At least enough for a handful articles:
https://www.businessinsider.com/20-tip-bible-pamphlet-2015-1...
Just like the zero rupee bills, these should be widespread. Not with a bible pamphlet inside, but an explanation why tipping culture is detrimental in the long run.
Please don't be the jerk who leaves fake bills that say tipping is detrimental. I promise you that servers don't have power over management to change the tipping system, you'll just come off as an asshole.
The difference is that wait staff effectively get paid 20% less than they would otherwise, on the expectation of getting a 20% tip. According to US labor law you can even pay servers less than minimum wage, as long as their tips make up for the difference. So by not tipping you're shorting workers of their wages.
If you want to end tipping culture, call the restaurant owners and tell them to bake tips into the menu prices.
The difference is that wait staff effectively get paid 20% less than they would otherwise, on the expectation of getting a 20% tip. According to US labor law you can even pay servers less than minimum wage, as long as their tips make up for the difference. So by not tipping you're shorting workers of their wages.
If you want to end tipping culture, call the restaurant owners and tell them to bake tips into the menu prices.
> The difference is that wait staff effectively get paid 20% less than they would otherwise, on the expectation of getting a 20% tip.
Yes, and the only reason restaurant owners can get away with this is because there is a labor market of servers willing to work for 20% less based on the expectation that they'll get the rest back in tips.
I agree that you should apply pressure to the system at multiple points, not just by foregoing tips. Tell managers straight up that you don't intend to tip and to pay their staff proper wages.
Yes, and the only reason restaurant owners can get away with this is because there is a labor market of servers willing to work for 20% less based on the expectation that they'll get the rest back in tips.
I agree that you should apply pressure to the system at multiple points, not just by foregoing tips. Tell managers straight up that you don't intend to tip and to pay their staff proper wages.
> You can even pay servers less than minimum wage, as long as their tips make up for the difference. So by not tipping you're shorting workers of their wages
By definition, the server cannot get paid less than minimum wage for wage+tips, regardless of many people stiff the tip.
(Normally I wouldn't mention this since minimum wage is often lower than market rate anyway, but apparently min wage was significant enough for you to mention it.)
By definition, the server cannot get paid less than minimum wage for wage+tips, regardless of many people stiff the tip.
(Normally I wouldn't mention this since minimum wage is often lower than market rate anyway, but apparently min wage was significant enough for you to mention it.)
Since this is HN and many of us live in California, it’s worth pointing out that California doesn’t have a lower tipped minimum wage anymore, these people are getting $16 an hour before tips. The official reason is gone in this state, yet the tipping bs persists.
Legally, yes, but it won't come as a shock that some employers (and employees) don't follow the law to the letter.
> they get paid less…
Not in California they don’t. Not for years. The tipped minimum wage is $16, same as the minimum wage for the people at Burger King (whose jobs are actually harder and worse, incidentally). Tipping is toxic and should die. And while I’ll tip at a sit-down restaurant I’m done. Counter service? Kiosk service? Mobile app ordering? No. I have a tip for management though: pay your damn employees yourself and leave me out of it.
Not in California they don’t. Not for years. The tipped minimum wage is $16, same as the minimum wage for the people at Burger King (whose jobs are actually harder and worse, incidentally). Tipping is toxic and should die. And while I’ll tip at a sit-down restaurant I’m done. Counter service? Kiosk service? Mobile app ordering? No. I have a tip for management though: pay your damn employees yourself and leave me out of it.
> you have to take affirmative action _not_ to tip, and people in line around you can see, so the social pressure is enormous.
A foodtruck I watch on twitch has everyone choose an option. No tip, some pre-set amounts, or custom. So no social pressure there, as no one else will know. They are using the square register.
A foodtruck I watch on twitch has everyone choose an option. No tip, some pre-set amounts, or custom. So no social pressure there, as no one else will know. They are using the square register.
In addition to other responses, know that the zero-note makes its way to the corrupt official's hands before they can inspect it. From their perspective, they've just completed an illegal act with someone willing to challenge their authority out of a sense of justice. What would you even do after receiving a zero note instead of a bribe as requested? So goes the example: of a smile and nothing more.
But in cases where the bribe is to expedite an official act—they give the example of getting a driver license issued—why wouldn’t the official just give the smile then shuffle your application to the bottom of the pile?
The official would be wary of appearing to take retaliatory action, since by being given the note, the person would have already signalled that they are the type to actively oppose bribery rather than just refusing to pay and otherwise turning a blind eye.
As a giver of one of these notes, I would imagine you have decided to stand against bribery no matter the outcome of the scenario where it is given. Hopefully reason wins out and the situation ends amicably. To address the bribery problem, though, there’s a sense where you have to be okay with things getting worse before they get better.
It seems to me the note is a socially well known form of protest, which may go down better than a direct interaction.
It seems to me the note is a socially well known form of protest, which may go down better than a direct interaction.
[deleted]
Frankly, when I started reading the article, I was actually expecting far more direct, practical applications, rather than pseudo-shame that I don't trust corrupt officials to have.
Stuff like:
If you have to pay, then paying a portion in Zero Notes so the total money is reduced.
Hiding fake money in the real money, so it will be obvious it was bribe money.
Allow you to tip off police, while mostly looking innocent if you're caught "I thought it was a real ruppee!"
Filling suitcases full of fake money, because they can't check before you leave (if you meet in public).
Making them with electronics, so the bribers can be followed (has other creepy issues though).
Making them with ink, that ruins other bribe money.
I dunno, like every con movie trick that Hollywood's used in money capers.
Stuff like:
If you have to pay, then paying a portion in Zero Notes so the total money is reduced.
Hiding fake money in the real money, so it will be obvious it was bribe money.
Allow you to tip off police, while mostly looking innocent if you're caught "I thought it was a real ruppee!"
Filling suitcases full of fake money, because they can't check before you leave (if you meet in public).
Making them with electronics, so the bribers can be followed (has other creepy issues though).
Making them with ink, that ruins other bribe money.
I dunno, like every con movie trick that Hollywood's used in money capers.
You know, there’s a lot of prior art here, which again is very culturally-specific: Mahatma Gandhi used non-violence and shame to liberate India from British rule. Imagine how that changes your outlook on the world, vs. the story of the American Revolution.
We cleverly just ensured any amount of our currency is worthless here in South Africa
Coincidentally some Indian brothers were responsible for that as well!
Care to share more details?
I volunteered for 5th Pillar many years ago and yes, the zero rupee note worked on many occasions. When any corrupted government official sees this note, they don't want the potential trouble of fighting with an activist organization like 5th pillar. They would just process the request without getting bribe and simply move on to prey on other innocent, helpless victims waiting in the queue. Of course, this worked only in the lower level of government offices like getting certificates, driving licenses, etc.
Why not simply bash the person over the head when they give you one of these notes?
Because they're presently employed, and a missed bribe is not worth their career.
A District Magistrate used to basically have the power of life and death.
"One does not simply..."
bash public officials over the head.
bash public officials over the head.
I wonder if '5th pillar' is an allusion to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_column
Growing up in India, we learned that the four pillars of democracy are the Legislature, the Executive, the Judiciary and the Media. The nonprofit presumably is saying that they/nonprofits are the fifth pillar.
There is also the zero euro note
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/0-Euro-Schein
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/0-Euro-Schein
Though it's not anticorruption but for souvenir purposes. I have quite a few of them from various tourist attractions.
So have I! I’m puzzled but delighted by how widespread they are-and in fact I’m personally aware of vending locations in several places not reflected on the official map [0].
[0] http://www.euro-souvenirscheine.de/map.php
[0] http://www.euro-souvenirscheine.de/map.php
There's also the Greater Japan Zero Yen Note https://www.moma.org/collection/works/136620
(The background to these is a complex of art projects and a court case, but it came to mind)
(The background to these is a complex of art projects and a court case, but it came to mind)
India should use these notes to pay for Russian oil and gas nowadays.
They use the same notes that the united states[2] and europe[1] uses right now to pay for russian gas instead.
[1](https://youtu.be/bJusZyN-yn8?si=Yq3jPFo7Pq2xF_Yd.)
[2](https://youtu.be/bMTEBoapjbY?si=fo5ZrtETxLociDES)
[1](https://youtu.be/bJusZyN-yn8?si=Yq3jPFo7Pq2xF_Yd.)
[2](https://youtu.be/bMTEBoapjbY?si=fo5ZrtETxLociDES)
Or they could just use dollars like the U.S. is doing.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/14/climate/enriched-uranium-...
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/14/climate/enriched-uranium-...
Here in the U.S. we have our own zero-value currency called the “penny”. Strangely, our own government mints these things - no NGO required.
Not quite, they're actually a NEGATIVE value currency.
U.S. currency production is funded by the federal budget, supported by taxpayer dollars, and offset by seigniorage revenue.
The cost of producing the U.S. penny, exceeds its face value.
The GOVT. explain that this loss is recovered through the concept of seigniorage.
Seigniorage is the difference between the face value of money and the cost to produce it.
For the U.S. Mint, which produces the penny, the overall profit comes from the entire spectrum of coin production, not just the penny. Since our penny results in a loss, other denominations like dimes, and quarters, are produced at a cost lower than their face value, generating profit. So this profit helps offset the losses from penny production. So the overall seigniorage generated from the other denominations theoretically covers the cost of producing a negative value coin.
U.S. currency production is funded by the federal budget, supported by taxpayer dollars, and offset by seigniorage revenue.
The cost of producing the U.S. penny, exceeds its face value.
The GOVT. explain that this loss is recovered through the concept of seigniorage.
Seigniorage is the difference between the face value of money and the cost to produce it.
For the U.S. Mint, which produces the penny, the overall profit comes from the entire spectrum of coin production, not just the penny. Since our penny results in a loss, other denominations like dimes, and quarters, are produced at a cost lower than their face value, generating profit. So this profit helps offset the losses from penny production. So the overall seigniorage generated from the other denominations theoretically covers the cost of producing a negative value coin.
Even 30+ years ago when I lived overseas on military bases, change was not given in pennies on the base exchange as it was too expensive to ship them (as I was told). Instead your change was rounded to the nearest nickel.
The US stopped minting pennies last year.
That's not true.
As someone who is slightly invested just because I hope to see governments make logical decisions, I would like that to be the case but no the US is still making pennies
As someone who is slightly invested just because I hope to see governments make logical decisions, I would like that to be the case but no the US is still making pennies
Ah, you're right. They announced they would but Congress didn't act.
https://catalog.usmint.gov/proof-set-2024-24RG.html?cgid=ann...
https://catalog.usmint.gov/proof-set-2024-24RG.html?cgid=ann...
Maybe you are thinking of Canada, which stopped in 2012.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_(Canadian_coin)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_(Canadian_coin)
[deleted]
Indian Zero-rupee note vs mine א-null coin
If only we could use these here in the US to pay speeding tickets issued on the 29th of the month.
Explain how committing an offense and having to pay the legally established fine is similar to the corruption mentioned in the article.
Slow down and you won’t get fined.
Slow down and you won’t get fined.
Do you believe you are somehow above the law, and immune from punishment later in the month? I’m confused by your response.
We're talking about a form of corrupt behavior.
Instead of giving you a ticket because you were exhibiting dangerous behavior per-se, instead it would be seen as an extra source of revenue for the county.
Towards the end of the month the police would issue more citations for ever more trivial transgressions, in order to meet the quota.
Obviously this had nothing to do with law or order.
In many places this is now discontinued or outright illegal.
Instead of giving you a ticket because you were exhibiting dangerous behavior per-se, instead it would be seen as an extra source of revenue for the county.
Towards the end of the month the police would issue more citations for ever more trivial transgressions, in order to meet the quota.
Obviously this had nothing to do with law or order.
In many places this is now discontinued or outright illegal.
phone8675309(1)
I mean, the ticket quota doesn't involve giving speeding tickets to people driving under the speed limit. If the sign says 35, drive 35, and you're good.
I'm sure they could then fine you for obstructing traffic for driving too slowly. Or for indicating too early, or too late. Or for not keeping enough distance from the vehicle in front of you. Or because you used your horn. Or for not using your horn perhaps. If they just kept following you, sooner or later you'd make a mistake.
Ticket quotas have been discontinued or made illegal in many places.
Ticket quotas have been discontinued or made illegal in many places.
Unironically just show up to court. I've had to pay less than 30% of parking tickets acquired as a result of showing up each and every time. When they do show up, I usually pay a small fraction of the initial fine after being polite to the cop.
I used to do this, but now I lose more money missing work to go to court than the cost of the ticket so I just pay for parking upfront to avoid the whole hassle.
Where I live, you get a discount if you just mail them a check, so if you go to court you risk losing significantly more.
In my state the best going to court tends to get you is a violation that won't show up on your record.
You can even go in with evidence but the court costs alone to defend make it a wash, to say nothing of time off work
You can even go in with evidence but the court costs alone to defend make it a wash, to say nothing of time off work
uptownfunk(1)
Looks like a bogus PR propaganda wikipedia link.
The only time I’ve seen them mentioned is in news reports about their existence as a campaign, never actual usage.
Another interesting campaign around corruption is ipaidabribe.com to gain some data around this. Unfortunately, both giving and taking bribes is illegal, thus you need anonymity for reports resulting in a lower data quality.
To fix that, there’s proposals to make it legal to pay “harassment bribes” (the ones where the bribe giver does not gain undue advantage).
> Giving complete immunity to the bribe-giver would ensure higher reporting and co-operation of the giver in bringing to justice the bribe taker. The present law acts as a deterrent to reporting of bribery.
https://prsindia.org/theprsblog/should-bribe-giving-be-legal...