Screen time robs average toddler of hearing 1,000 words spoken by adult a day(theguardian.com)
theguardian.com
Screen time robs average toddler of hearing 1,000 words spoken by adult a day
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/mar/04/does-children-toddlers-kids-watching-tv-impact-development-learning
135 comments
I think we can safely assume toddlers don't use photoshop, and don't play bejeweled. I also can't quite imagine them watching a nature documentary.
Video games won't develop motor skills, unless you find some tough games which require very fast hand-eye coordination at the child's level. Even then it's going to be very limited in comparison to e.g. drawing, throwing and catching a ball or playing a musical instrument. Creativity from video games is something I find even harder to believe. Logic is about the only thing that games manage to convey, but at that age, logic is weird. Toddlers can't reason well, and can't explain themselves.
A tablet or a phone is like candy to children. Be careful.
Video games won't develop motor skills, unless you find some tough games which require very fast hand-eye coordination at the child's level. Even then it's going to be very limited in comparison to e.g. drawing, throwing and catching a ball or playing a musical instrument. Creativity from video games is something I find even harder to believe. Logic is about the only thing that games manage to convey, but at that age, logic is weird. Toddlers can't reason well, and can't explain themselves.
A tablet or a phone is like candy to children. Be careful.
My 2 years 5 month old toddler uses Adobe fresco on my wacom tablet every now and then, she knows how to switch colours and draw, I erase the page every now and then for her.
She also watches every now and then "C'est pas sorcier", a french documentary series for kids that's pretty advanced (go into details of biology etc.), on all sorts of topics (nature, science, food etc.). That's also a good way for her to experience some French as we live in the UK and her only source of French are talking to me, or to her grandmother on the phone.
Just to be clear she does plenty of other activities, we cook together (she has a children's chef knife and uses it to cut things like tofu, carrots etc.), she draws on paper, she sings and dance, goes to the swimming pool weekly etc.
As for video game, that's more for later as she does not have yet the skills for that but at a glance
- Logic : Puzzle games, things like incredible machines, but also management game like sim-city. - Creativity : Any sandbox game, the sims, minecraft, drawing game, sculpting game, animal crossing etc. - Motor skills: Platformers, fighting games...
Essentially any game that requires a lot of effort for little reward, as opposed to games that makes you touch something shiny and shower you in visual and auditive feedback.
She also watches every now and then "C'est pas sorcier", a french documentary series for kids that's pretty advanced (go into details of biology etc.), on all sorts of topics (nature, science, food etc.). That's also a good way for her to experience some French as we live in the UK and her only source of French are talking to me, or to her grandmother on the phone.
Just to be clear she does plenty of other activities, we cook together (she has a children's chef knife and uses it to cut things like tofu, carrots etc.), she draws on paper, she sings and dance, goes to the swimming pool weekly etc.
As for video game, that's more for later as she does not have yet the skills for that but at a glance
- Logic : Puzzle games, things like incredible machines, but also management game like sim-city. - Creativity : Any sandbox game, the sims, minecraft, drawing game, sculpting game, animal crossing etc. - Motor skills: Platformers, fighting games...
Essentially any game that requires a lot of effort for little reward, as opposed to games that makes you touch something shiny and shower you in visual and auditive feedback.
The thing that bothers me about game interactions is that they are designed to provide quick and easy positive feedback loops, unlike most real-world skills. E.g., learning the piano requires a lot of difficult persistence with uncertain feedback along the way--it's an entirely different experience than playing a video game, and I worry that conditioning our brains with games makes it harder for us to develop the patience and resilience that are required to develop those kinds of skills.
Oftentimes the way to learn complex real-life skills is to break them up into smaller interactions that you can gamify to get that immediate dopamine high of a successful intermediate result. This is a large portion of my job as an engineering manager - breaking up complex strategic goals into an MVP launch + follow-ons, ensuring that projects are scaled appropriately to the skill level of the people doing them, and rewarding folks with bonuses and promotions for successful milestones on the path to that strategic objective.
I just read an interview with an esports pro transitioning to a normal job, he said the exact same thing. That the game environment is very "coddled" - you are always on a track, getting pulled towards the next milestone. Real life is more open-ended and less instantly gratifying.
Multiplayer games are extremely different from single player games though. Multiplayer games are on purpose made to keep you hooked, to keep your spending up.
Single player games have one off purchases (unless you are playing trash games), so the requirement is to just have an enjoyable experience.
For some weird reason we couple all of this under "screen time" and "videogames" encompasses both multiplayer and singleplayer, which is heavily different.
Single player games have one off purchases (unless you are playing trash games), so the requirement is to just have an enjoyable experience.
For some weird reason we couple all of this under "screen time" and "videogames" encompasses both multiplayer and singleplayer, which is heavily different.
Do you happen to have the article? Sounds interesting. I was very invested in the sc2 esports scene in 2010 during college.
Yeah, sorry for the late reply.
It was this article with ptitdrogo
https://www.christian-staedter.com/guest-newsletter-theo-pti...
It was this article with ptitdrogo
https://www.christian-staedter.com/guest-newsletter-theo-pti...
Thanks! This person was literally right when I stopped watching (shortly before legacy of the void was released).
I'm kinda curious what happened to the earlier pros, like Idra, Huk, etc. I suppose time to do some detective work. :D
I'm kinda curious what happened to the earlier pros, like Idra, Huk, etc. I suppose time to do some detective work. :D
People without that patience and resilience aren't gonna learn the piano anyways. People with that patience will put it into their video games to learn speed runs or be competitive
Of course kids watch nature documentaries. Kids love animals.
> Creativity from video games is something I find even harder to believe. Logic is about the only thing that games manage to convey,
Kids playing Minecraft probably aren't building computers.
> Creativity from video games is something I find even harder to believe. Logic is about the only thing that games manage to convey,
Kids playing Minecraft probably aren't building computers.
It depends on the game, but certain kinds of games have been shown in a number of studies to improve a wide array of abilities - from daily hand-eye coordination tasks [1] over decision making [2] all the way to problem solving [3]. The only question is if you want your kid to play COD or Starcraft, but the benefits are there and if your kid is not interested in learning an instrument, it's way better to have them play these types of games rather than some low mental effort smartphone attention sink.
[1] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/095679761665030...
[2] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S187705092...
[3] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/235367249_More_Than...
[1] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/095679761665030...
[2] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S187705092...
[3] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/235367249_More_Than...
Eye-hand coordination, sure.
But you've got a motley set of studies. The first study says "After they played a driving or first-person-shooter video game for 5 or 10 hr, their visuomotor control improved significantly. In contrast, non–action gamers showed no such improvement after they played a nonaction video game" (emphasis mine). Not toddler's games.
The 2nd article is not only about FPS, but it is very low quality and relies on self report without a control group.
The third article finds a correlation between strategic video games and self-reported problem solving skills and self-reported academic performance, while showing a negative influence from FPS on problem solving.
So I'd say: nothing has been proven, certainly not about toddler's games.
But you've got a motley set of studies. The first study says "After they played a driving or first-person-shooter video game for 5 or 10 hr, their visuomotor control improved significantly. In contrast, non–action gamers showed no such improvement after they played a nonaction video game" (emphasis mine). Not toddler's games.
The 2nd article is not only about FPS, but it is very low quality and relies on self report without a control group.
The third article finds a correlation between strategic video games and self-reported problem solving skills and self-reported academic performance, while showing a negative influence from FPS on problem solving.
So I'd say: nothing has been proven, certainly not about toddler's games.
Most of the studies showing negative effects of screen time are also low quality and rely on self reporting.
Yeah take that with a massive grain of salt. Most social studies can’t be reproduced. (As in, at least 2/3rds can’t be reproduced, and the remaining 1/3rd often only on the same specific cohort)
During my studies my team tried to replicate some studies showing improved test scores after playing games like Tetris; we tried it on several schools and found literally no effect whatsoever.
During my studies my team tried to replicate some studies showing improved test scores after playing games like Tetris; we tried it on several schools and found literally no effect whatsoever.
So why do you believe that screen time is bad for kids if studies can't be replicated? If you were consistent you would say this for that as well, just scrutinizing one side means you aren't really scrutinizing, you are just confirming your own biases.
Who said I believe that? I surely don’t. I had a lot of screen time as a kid and it taught me a lot, for one I wouldn’t be able to speak English without it.
I personally do believe screen time ought to be limited to some extent, but that’s only because I believe being outside is healthy, not because screen time itself is bad.
I personally do believe screen time ought to be limited to some extent, but that’s only because I believe being outside is healthy, not because screen time itself is bad.
I didn't want to go into that, but social sciences is indeed bad at proving things. At best they find a correlation, but a causal relation is very hard to determine. And that's aside from the bad methodology.
[deleted]
Parenting is so tough to discuss. Nothing is ever a best (or even 'right') answer. I agree with this take, with a "yes, and" -
I worry about apps / video games for children also stunting imagination. Yes, in a game like Minecraft you can build anything out of blocks, or with Photoshop draw anything. However, the entire 'universe of outcomes' is inherently bound to the mind(s) of the developers, compared with a bored kid who's possibilities are limited only by their own imagination. Children are therefore pressed to stretch and practice creativity. Its not a perfect analogy, but I'm reminded of the theme in the Matrix movies of bounded outcomes.
I personally think creativity through raw boredom - rather than directed distraction (especially through digital devices)- is essential to mental development.
I worry about apps / video games for children also stunting imagination. Yes, in a game like Minecraft you can build anything out of blocks, or with Photoshop draw anything. However, the entire 'universe of outcomes' is inherently bound to the mind(s) of the developers, compared with a bored kid who's possibilities are limited only by their own imagination. Children are therefore pressed to stretch and practice creativity. Its not a perfect analogy, but I'm reminded of the theme in the Matrix movies of bounded outcomes.
I personally think creativity through raw boredom - rather than directed distraction (especially through digital devices)- is essential to mental development.
I don't disagree on the second part, but i highly doubt the author of minecraft envisioned that somebody would recreate a computer inside the game. From any point of view, that's an incredible exercise in creativity.
Also, having boundaries and getting bored is great for creativity
Also, having boundaries and getting bored is great for creativity
Really? Give super mario to a toddler watch as they get frustrated, cry and smash the controller with a huge tantrum.
And I'm not sure what videogames you play, but hand eye coordination needs to be really high. something that's also overlooked is the level of reflexes they develop. In new super mario bros U, initially I would need to say "now jump" with roughly a 6 seconds anticipation before the actual jumo, now my toddler can jump properly in the first few levels.
Give it toa 5 years old and they are nowehere close to being able to do what he can do, so he must have developed something.
Of course you give them hard games, it's the same reason why you give them veggies and not candies. You give healthy videogames, not the garbage that goes on tablet and phones.
Oh and regarding creativity, my children played videogames, then got bored. With mum, they built a super mario level using duplo blocks and proceeded to play using the action figures we have.
Something strongly overlooked, is the level of focus required to play hard videogames, so something they develop is, indeed, focus.
And decision making! There is so much to decide in a videogame, often rapidly.
All of this happens in the same room as me, to be clear (still working), so I can see when they get bored and it's time for a change. Also they don't have access to the games, so they have a single videogame at a time with one change per day, which a great natural way to enforce focusing and getting bored if playing excessively
And I'm not sure what videogames you play, but hand eye coordination needs to be really high. something that's also overlooked is the level of reflexes they develop. In new super mario bros U, initially I would need to say "now jump" with roughly a 6 seconds anticipation before the actual jumo, now my toddler can jump properly in the first few levels.
Give it toa 5 years old and they are nowehere close to being able to do what he can do, so he must have developed something.
Of course you give them hard games, it's the same reason why you give them veggies and not candies. You give healthy videogames, not the garbage that goes on tablet and phones.
Oh and regarding creativity, my children played videogames, then got bored. With mum, they built a super mario level using duplo blocks and proceeded to play using the action figures we have.
Something strongly overlooked, is the level of focus required to play hard videogames, so something they develop is, indeed, focus.
And decision making! There is so much to decide in a videogame, often rapidly.
All of this happens in the same room as me, to be clear (still working), so I can see when they get bored and it's time for a change. Also they don't have access to the games, so they have a single videogame at a time with one change per day, which a great natural way to enforce focusing and getting bored if playing excessively
Video games can definitely have a lot of benefits over television. My son, who is the third of five, has played an online competitive FPS game since he was four years old. It’s had a number of benefits, including motivating him to learn to read at a much earlier age than his siblings. He wanted to learn to read so badly to play his video game that he can now legitimately just sit and read a book that he has never seen before, before he has even reached kindergarten.
Wow that's impressive. I only learned to read in the first grade.
I feel that the previous generation of MLP with Twilight Sparkle was actually pretty good. Despite being made by a company who wanted to sell toys.
Most cringe episodes are the first and last two of the season, but the slice of life in the middle are more often than not golden.
But yeah, creating a curated library and not leaving it to chance would probably be a good idea.
Most cringe episodes are the first and last two of the season, but the slice of life in the middle are more often than not golden.
But yeah, creating a curated library and not leaving it to chance would probably be a good idea.
Yeah for sure, MLP friendship is magic is there in the list of high quality show. It's unavoidable that toys are sold on popular francises, I just don't want show that are obviously just 20 minutes long advertisements with little substance.
There are not many cartoons made to sell toys that I know of. There is MLP, and .. Star Wars maybe?
And MLP is indeed a quite good show, fans ranging from Miley Cyrus to Gabe Newell.
Also I don't know how is it considered bad if characters are lovable (MLP has 50+ different, but lovable characters by design), or that if objects around her (clothes, mugs, toys, other merch) make her feel good?
And MLP is indeed a quite good show, fans ranging from Miley Cyrus to Gabe Newell.
Also I don't know how is it considered bad if characters are lovable (MLP has 50+ different, but lovable characters by design), or that if objects around her (clothes, mugs, toys, other merch) make her feel good?
For a good 20-30 years most if not all kids shows were planned with toys in mind.
Some, like Transformers, were essentially toys that were given shows.
Even Sesame Street, a PBS (public broadcast) show, still has significant toy tie-ins -- anyone remember the Tickle Me Elmo crazy years ago? My 2 year old has a big-ass plush Cookie Monster.
Some, like Transformers, were essentially toys that were given shows.
Even Sesame Street, a PBS (public broadcast) show, still has significant toy tie-ins -- anyone remember the Tickle Me Elmo crazy years ago? My 2 year old has a big-ass plush Cookie Monster.
Famously, Transformers. Was Yu-Gi-Oh in this category? I only know that show from the "Abridged" parody dub[0]. Pokémon?
[0] https://www.youtube.com/@LittleKuribohChannel
[0] https://www.youtube.com/@LittleKuribohChannel
GI joe? Various barbie cartoons? Transformers? There are a ton of such cartoons, at least in the 80s and 90s.
[deleted]
Some screen time is ok, but this can be a slippery slope.
Screen time for your child might buy you some free time, but is not a replacement for real interaction.
In 20, 30, 40 years I guarantee you will give anything to be able to go back and spend more time with your young child.
Children are not distractions from important work, they ARE the important work.
Screen time for your child might buy you some free time, but is not a replacement for real interaction.
In 20, 30, 40 years I guarantee you will give anything to be able to go back and spend more time with your young child.
Children are not distractions from important work, they ARE the important work.
My 3 year old doesn't have any screen time, and adults don't use their phones in front of him.
He plays happily by himself, and is always asking questions. People always compliment him on being well behaved, kind and very articulate.
It seems almost taboo to suggest it might be be something to do with the lack of screen time, but I can't help but think it plays a large role. I see how hard I struggle to deal with boredom and refrain from using my phone and I never want to inflict that onto a child.
He plays happily by himself, and is always asking questions. People always compliment him on being well behaved, kind and very articulate.
It seems almost taboo to suggest it might be be something to do with the lack of screen time, but I can't help but think it plays a large role. I see how hard I struggle to deal with boredom and refrain from using my phone and I never want to inflict that onto a child.
Every single child is different, and parents love to extrapolate their own experiences on other children(I'm 100% guilty of this too).
But if we're sharing anecdotes:
- our (almost) 3 year old gets screen time(cartoons in the evening, just so I can cook dinner while my wife works), but speaks two languages fluently at this point, and understands when to switch between them.
- our friends 3 year old has zero screen time, very engaged parents, and knows like 5 words, babbles a lot otherwise. They've been for different consulatations about this and apparently it's completely normal, sometimes kids develop language skills a bit later and that's fine.
What I think is definitely related is parents giving their kids dummies after they turn one - I've seen kids as old as 3-4 years still using them, and I've heard about parents just doing it so "the kids stays quiet". It absolutely breaks my heart.
But if we're sharing anecdotes:
- our (almost) 3 year old gets screen time(cartoons in the evening, just so I can cook dinner while my wife works), but speaks two languages fluently at this point, and understands when to switch between them.
- our friends 3 year old has zero screen time, very engaged parents, and knows like 5 words, babbles a lot otherwise. They've been for different consulatations about this and apparently it's completely normal, sometimes kids develop language skills a bit later and that's fine.
What I think is definitely related is parents giving their kids dummies after they turn one - I've seen kids as old as 3-4 years still using them, and I've heard about parents just doing it so "the kids stays quiet". It absolutely breaks my heart.
Yup this is a great point. I've seen plenty of kids (well, former kids) from my peer group who had strict screen time limits and are now the biggest social media users I know. Maybe they could have used a little more exposure earlier? Who knows.
that's exactly what me and my wife did to protect our toddler from drug addiction. We started him on light marihuana since two, only later introducing other drugs like MDMA, amphetamines and very sparingly cocaine. Hope this exposure helps him never to get addicted.
You can't learn to resist hard drugs, and such drugs causes great damage on growing bodies. So no, your example isn't comparable.
Banning candy for your kid is a more apt comparison, and that seems to be very ineffective to me.
Banning candy for your kid is a more apt comparison, and that seems to be very ineffective to me.
I'm not sure if he's joking or serious! In any case sorry this has to be said but no don't give drugs to kids please.
My 3 year old is also frequently complemented on her language skills. She talks non-stop and is well ahead of other kids we meet in her vocabulary and use of language. She watches TV most days.
I taught myself English at age 5 from watching American television. To this day I sound like I was born in SF despite not spending more than 6 months total there in my life. Television, and internet TV in particular, is the most amazing tool if you start using it properly. I mean ffs, I have access to lectures by world experts in every field one click away. 50 years ago you had to go on a sabbatical for a year to have a chance of doing what I for an hour before falling asleep now.
The internet is a grocery store. If you let a child pick out their own food then some will choose a balanced meal. But many, perhaps most, will choose candy. When you're dealing with populations then you have to think statistically.
If you let children play outside without supervision they will decide to open a cat to see how it works before too long.
You don't need to think statistically, you need to parent.
You don't need to think statistically, you need to parent.
>open a cat to see how it works before too long
So what? To a literal reading of Tom Sawyer, dead cats are a standard American toy. Might even help cure warts.
>You don't need to think statistically, you need to parent.
Indeed. Parent with the assumption that your child will become a statistic.
So what? To a literal reading of Tom Sawyer, dead cats are a standard American toy. Might even help cure warts.
>You don't need to think statistically, you need to parent.
Indeed. Parent with the assumption that your child will become a statistic.
>Parent with the assumption that your child will become a statistic.
With a parent like that I'm sure they will.
With a parent like that I'm sure they will.
*parent with the assumption that you child will become a statistic if you don't
Thanks for the judgement though
Thanks for the judgement though
I think the "Rachel" effect on global toddler vocabulary is deeply underestimated.
I'm guessing, after a bit of searching, that you're referring to
https://www.youtube.com/@msrachel
?
https://www.youtube.com/@msrachel
?
Should be. Only Rachel YT show I know for kids.
Indeed, my daughter is a big Miss Rachel fan
I think part of it is that the generation who was never allowed to be bored is now raising kids, and so they believe that a perpetual state of being stimulated is the norm. And because kids in general are pretty boring little creatures, it only makes sense to distract them with screens of their own so you can go back to looking at yours.
If my daughter's around me I don't interact with my phone beyond the odd emergency - I'd rather play and talk to her. I'm not particularly anti-screen time (it's impossible to avoid, working in tech) but seeing what a lot of adults consider normal usage is terrifying.
I feel a lot of our generation take the attitude that screen time didn't harm us (hey, we've done ok) which I'm not sold on - I wonder sometimes how I might have turned out if I didn't spend so much time on video games or messing around online as a kid.
I feel a lot of our generation take the attitude that screen time didn't harm us (hey, we've done ok) which I'm not sold on - I wonder sometimes how I might have turned out if I didn't spend so much time on video games or messing around online as a kid.
Same. Except my 3 year old watches quite a bit of TV and I frequently use my phone in front of him (the latter I am working on, the former I am not too bothered about within reason)
Ditto.
I think screen time is proxy for something else, maybe general parental attention. You can have plenty and watch TV, or have no screen time and no attention either.
A child's day is long and has very few responsibilities, there is plenty of time for attentive, creative playing even around an hour or two of screen time.
I think screen time is proxy for something else, maybe general parental attention. You can have plenty and watch TV, or have no screen time and no attention either.
A child's day is long and has very few responsibilities, there is plenty of time for attentive, creative playing even around an hour or two of screen time.
Very similar here.
What will you do regarding schools, have you thought about that? Normally I'm not a control freak, but I worry that our hard work protecting him from the negative effects of screen addiction will quickly be destroyed if he's put into an environment where every other kid has a phone and is addicted to it.
What will you do regarding schools, have you thought about that? Normally I'm not a control freak, but I worry that our hard work protecting him from the negative effects of screen addiction will quickly be destroyed if he's put into an environment where every other kid has a phone and is addicted to it.
Schools in my region are suddenly catching up the the top notch scientific publications warning people to stop parking babies in front of screens.
That’s giving me hope
That’s giving me hope
I think you either home school or you give up and let things fall into place. One thing for sure is that although you don’t allow screen time you can’t expect that your kids aren’t going to be surrounded by kids taking about Mr Beast, Minecraft, etc. They are going to hear about it from friends and feel left out of conversations.
I mean, is that a big deal? When I was a kid, other kids watched shows that I didn't watch and had toys that I didn't have. So what? I think people exaggerate this idea of "being left out". We don't all have to be the same.
social isolation can be a hell of a thing, and in the world we have now where having a phone is the norm, it isnt just about having different toys, its about completely lacking a tool so deeplyintegratedintodaily life that others do have. i don't know what the solution is, but i do think that at least considering it is important
*IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER THAT I AM NOT A PARENT* i cannot judge others for how they raise their children as i do not and will almost certainly never have any of my own, however i can still discuss the topic and raise concerns even with the understanding that i may be missing things and i am willing to accept that may indeed be the case
*IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER THAT I AM NOT A PARENT* i cannot judge others for how they raise their children as i do not and will almost certainly never have any of my own, however i can still discuss the topic and raise concerns even with the understanding that i may be missing things and i am willing to accept that may indeed be the case
Why?
It's the phone of other kids, they will not give their phones away
It's the phone of other kids, they will not give their phones away
It's not that - but it's being left out.
If all of them will use phones and chat via them, not having one will be social isolation.
If all of them will use phones and chat via them, not having one will be social isolation.
We are planning an apple watch at first. Can do both of those.
Seems like fair compromise.
Truth be told I realise that this is a case where whatever you do, there will be consequences. I myself I don't really know how I'd approach that.
Truth be told I realise that this is a case where whatever you do, there will be consequences. I myself I don't really know how I'd approach that.
I didn't understand your comment. Why what?
How do you do it? It is very, very difficult to not have screen time, in part because there are older kids in my house.
I’m more on the “quality of screen time” and “method of screen time” as my modifiable factors. Zero screen time seems (I cringe saying this) impossible.
I’m more on the “quality of screen time” and “method of screen time” as my modifiable factors. Zero screen time seems (I cringe saying this) impossible.
I also have a toddler.
Basically you don't use your phone near your child unless it's absolutely critical. That means - don't browse mindlessly, check social media, or news etc. Then all you have left is basically the occasional work related email that is urgent, which can probably be taken care of in mere seconds unless you need to action something.
Basically you don't use your phone near your child unless it's absolutely critical. That means - don't browse mindlessly, check social media, or news etc. Then all you have left is basically the occasional work related email that is urgent, which can probably be taken care of in mere seconds unless you need to action something.
> That means - don't browse mindlessly, check social media, or news etc.
A good thing to do anyway.
> Then all you have left is basically the occasional work related email that is urgent,
I tell clients I do not check email regularly. If something is urgent they can phone or text message.
A good thing to do anyway.
> Then all you have left is basically the occasional work related email that is urgent,
I tell clients I do not check email regularly. If something is urgent they can phone or text message.
I think there are levels of dedication, and parenthood expectations of what having a child is going to be like play a major role.
I'm going to be a father in a couple months and I'm observing most of my friends who did care about avoiding screens for their children give up partially on the idea because they've categorized it borderline impossible. I'm talking about parents who did deeply and seriously care about it prior having the kid.
Meanwhile I have two othwr friends who kinda got away with no screens. But i feel they do put a lot more effort for it.
So my take observing those samples: expectation management and be self-aware of how much sacrifice does it take.
If anyone has more adivice on this I'd appreciate too.
I'm going to be a father in a couple months and I'm observing most of my friends who did care about avoiding screens for their children give up partially on the idea because they've categorized it borderline impossible. I'm talking about parents who did deeply and seriously care about it prior having the kid.
Meanwhile I have two othwr friends who kinda got away with no screens. But i feel they do put a lot more effort for it.
So my take observing those samples: expectation management and be self-aware of how much sacrifice does it take.
If anyone has more adivice on this I'd appreciate too.
The strategy my SO and I have found works well with our toddler is to find activities to replace the scrolling habit with activities that provide a better model for him (but can still occupy us). We both read paper books around him, under the theory that he can't tell "reading a book on the phone" from "scrolling social media", or do our versions of crafts, or reach out to contact friends and family.
There's a plus side for us as well, since reading, doing hobbies, and being in closer touch with friends is what we would (in our unwarped-by-phone-addiction moments) rather be spending our time doing.
There's a plus side for us as well, since reading, doing hobbies, and being in closer touch with friends is what we would (in our unwarped-by-phone-addiction moments) rather be spending our time doing.
Seems odd to say, but we just don't.
It hasn't really been hard at all. He just gets involved in everything around the house. He helps cook and clean and look after his baby brother.
It hasn't really been hard at all. He just gets involved in everything around the house. He helps cook and clean and look after his baby brother.
My 3 year old is holding conversations with adults, building 6+ legos, befriends my friends and has conversations quality conversations with them.
He uses ipad for games/shows at least once every 2-3 days.
There is a clear selection bias especially on HN, where a lot of people are quite intelligent and educated. Our offspring will have the same learning traits.
He uses ipad for games/shows at least once every 2-3 days.
There is a clear selection bias especially on HN, where a lot of people are quite intelligent and educated. Our offspring will have the same learning traits.
Not to discount what you're saying because I may be wrong here but could it be that, because your child is well behaved and can play happily by himself, you haven't had a need to give him screen time?
I can see parents giving their child a screen because of the fact they need to distract the child for a few minutes while they do something.
Like, what came first? The screentime or the good behavior?
I can see parents giving their child a screen because of the fact they need to distract the child for a few minutes while they do something.
Like, what came first? The screentime or the good behavior?
We did not have a TV, which was definitely a big help. Also a suggestion people do not like.
My kids started with desktops, not phones, and with carefully chosen software - GCompris was the first thing I remember.
Boredom is often a good thing - it motivates you to find things to do.
My kids started with desktops, not phones, and with carefully chosen software - GCompris was the first thing I remember.
Boredom is often a good thing - it motivates you to find things to do.
Our son had no screen time and the odd bit of TV up until 2 years old. On his second birthday my wife thought it would be a nice idea to give him an amazon fire kids (because everyone else had one, though not sure how true that is!). A few things we observed:
1. Whilst there IS good content on there. A lot of it is complete nonsense. cocomelon, paw patrol, baby shark, AI generated rubbish etc. and quite a lot of the games are terrible. Toddlers don't know the difference between what is good and what is bad. You cannot monitor them effectively because amazon provides access to all content by default. He would quite easily get through 20-30 apps/videos in one sitting. That's a lot of different content!
2. Instead of reading, playing with his lego, wooden blocks, trainset or doing puzzles, his goto became the tablet. He wanted it at all meal times, in the car, and before bed. If we didn't give it to him, he had a meltdown. So we ended up giving it to him as we didn't have time to deal with the meltdown. Before the tablet, he didn't really meltdown at all.
3. Whilst he communicates well and talks a lot for a 2 year old. When using the tablet, he would completely zone out... "Would you like to eat supper?" ... tumbleweed. That's not great and aligns with TFA.
4. Not sure if correlated because there are lots of other factors at play but his bedtimes became a nightmare. He wanted the tablet, when before we read books like Mog the Cat or similar. Instead of being content with Daddy singing Jelly on the Plate, he wanted the horrid video on the tablet.
5. We live in a lovely rural area in the UK and he stopped wanting to go outside to instead play with the tablet.
6. Again, not sure if correlated but he became more irritable and restless after using the tablet.
7. He would complain there is nothing to do despite the availabily of toys.
And so... One day we told him the computer was broken. Mummy sent it to the factory to get it repaired. And... It's still being repaired to this day.
The first day was hell but now he's stopped asking for it and he's back to his normal self.
Perhaps we'll introduce it again when he's a bit older.
1. Whilst there IS good content on there. A lot of it is complete nonsense. cocomelon, paw patrol, baby shark, AI generated rubbish etc. and quite a lot of the games are terrible. Toddlers don't know the difference between what is good and what is bad. You cannot monitor them effectively because amazon provides access to all content by default. He would quite easily get through 20-30 apps/videos in one sitting. That's a lot of different content!
2. Instead of reading, playing with his lego, wooden blocks, trainset or doing puzzles, his goto became the tablet. He wanted it at all meal times, in the car, and before bed. If we didn't give it to him, he had a meltdown. So we ended up giving it to him as we didn't have time to deal with the meltdown. Before the tablet, he didn't really meltdown at all.
3. Whilst he communicates well and talks a lot for a 2 year old. When using the tablet, he would completely zone out... "Would you like to eat supper?" ... tumbleweed. That's not great and aligns with TFA.
4. Not sure if correlated because there are lots of other factors at play but his bedtimes became a nightmare. He wanted the tablet, when before we read books like Mog the Cat or similar. Instead of being content with Daddy singing Jelly on the Plate, he wanted the horrid video on the tablet.
5. We live in a lovely rural area in the UK and he stopped wanting to go outside to instead play with the tablet.
6. Again, not sure if correlated but he became more irritable and restless after using the tablet.
7. He would complain there is nothing to do despite the availabily of toys.
And so... One day we told him the computer was broken. Mummy sent it to the factory to get it repaired. And... It's still being repaired to this day.
The first day was hell but now he's stopped asking for it and he's back to his normal self.
Perhaps we'll introduce it again when he's a bit older.
Heard a similar story from a friend that had to wean their kids off of a tablet.
I don't want to come across as evangelical about it, but it is the best decision I think we've made as parents.
I don't want to come across as evangelical about it, but it is the best decision I think we've made as parents.
Oh yeah. I get downvoted as hell when I admit that I wish my mom had gently smashed my screens with a hammer instead of hiding my cables, which came to show how powerless she was about the device which was harming my school involvement
Horrifying but honestly seen the exact same thing happen every time.
Honestly don't understand parents who would swap the facade of "it shuts them up" when in reality you have kids who you can take to dinner and they'd happily just sit there with a coloring book vs the drama about how much charge they have left on their tablet and constantly having to tell them to put it down to eat.
Dunno starts to feel like a false economy where you're trading off acknowledging them elsewhere for a moment for every other interaction being amplified into drama mostly centered around the tablet, how much charge is on the tablet, when the tablet must be put down etc.
Honestly don't understand parents who would swap the facade of "it shuts them up" when in reality you have kids who you can take to dinner and they'd happily just sit there with a coloring book vs the drama about how much charge they have left on their tablet and constantly having to tell them to put it down to eat.
Dunno starts to feel like a false economy where you're trading off acknowledging them elsewhere for a moment for every other interaction being amplified into drama mostly centered around the tablet, how much charge is on the tablet, when the tablet must be put down etc.
I give my child zero screen time except on the plane when we are flying across the country to visit family.
Eating out with my son is difficult because he cannot focus on something for more than a few minutes. I’m sure some kids would be content to sit and color for like 30mins but I don’t think it’s the norm at 2.
Eating out with my son is difficult because he cannot focus on something for more than a few minutes. I’m sure some kids would be content to sit and color for like 30mins but I don’t think it’s the norm at 2.
I know everybody has a suggestion to give and you should listen to nobody, but, if the time comes, give them a nintendo switch with Kirby star allies and yoshi's crafted world (and nothing else).
If videogames are something you want to allow, give the hard ones, they either get bored because it's hard or they learn
It’s not the lack of screen time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39601348
This website claims their program has 5th graders succeeding at AP math: https://www.mentava.com/
Kids are capable of more than we give them credit for. Adults are incredibly vain and infantilize their children to preserve their adult egos. Hands on experience and self paced learning across contexts is the key to education success. Not our dilapidated social institutions and reductive philosophy like avoiding screen time. Thats vanity speaking.
This website claims their program has 5th graders succeeding at AP math: https://www.mentava.com/
Kids are capable of more than we give them credit for. Adults are incredibly vain and infantilize their children to preserve their adult egos. Hands on experience and self paced learning across contexts is the key to education success. Not our dilapidated social institutions and reductive philosophy like avoiding screen time. Thats vanity speaking.
But these videos talk constantly. How could watching videos lead to hearing fewer words?
Talking with adults is highly engaging and interactive for children.
The same words and phrases get repeated and iterated over in varying orders and stresses in association with immediate touchable physical objects and executable actions.
A week of that would test higher for word|association retention than would a week of watching video with { words, words, words } streaming by non stop.
Yes, I do understand that there are videos and shows that are specifically designed to engage and teach young viewers: Playschool, Sesame Street etc .. but these require far more craft than goes into the vast sea of near AI generated pap that streams these days.
The same words and phrases get repeated and iterated over in varying orders and stresses in association with immediate touchable physical objects and executable actions.
A week of that would test higher for word|association retention than would a week of watching video with { words, words, words } streaming by non stop.
Yes, I do understand that there are videos and shows that are specifically designed to engage and teach young viewers: Playschool, Sesame Street etc .. but these require far more craft than goes into the vast sea of near AI generated pap that streams these days.
If you interact with babies, you'll notice that they are looking at you with an astonished intensity. That's because every neuron in their brain is trying to understand "What is going on!?"
Humans are copy-machines. We copy each other. Toddlers and infants especially so. They don't learn by just hearing voices, they need to see how these sounds are made by a real human being with a real voice-box and real lips and real tongue, in which context they are used.
Have you ever noticed gesturing while talking to someone on the phone? That's because we constantly try to enrich the words we are making with more context.
All that is missing if toddlers are just looking at a screen. It's devastating for learning.
Humans are copy-machines. We copy each other. Toddlers and infants especially so. They don't learn by just hearing voices, they need to see how these sounds are made by a real human being with a real voice-box and real lips and real tongue, in which context they are used.
Have you ever noticed gesturing while talking to someone on the phone? That's because we constantly try to enrich the words we are making with more context.
All that is missing if toddlers are just looking at a screen. It's devastating for learning.
They mention that they didn't test for it, but I'd wager that the parents use of devices results in them speaking to the children less.
This dilemma has been named “video deficit”, the reason why children are unable to find the puppet whose location has been shown to them in a video
https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/display/document/obo-97...
https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/display/document/obo-97...
They learn to hear (and understand) but they are not exercising speaking back, which is also important.
Also, the usual pattern of "parents shoving smartphone into kids eyes to keep them busy" is with very low volume, because parents don't want to hear the frickin' video sounds.
Is all vocabulary equal? After hearing American kids started talking with British mannerisms during the pandemic from watching too much Peppa Pig why would you risk your kid learning English from "Jonny Jonny Yes Papa" or "Finger Family" broken English slop videos
Not an expert, but I have the sense that some times toddlers do things just so they can interact with adults. Knowing that I get the sense that they might learn more from an actual person than from a screen everything else being equal.
Studies show that toddlers can't learn from video.
[deleted]
oh really
A quick search surfaced this study: https://hechingerreport.org/why-your-toddler-cant-learn-from...
GP said studies, plural. I cannot confirm that. But the linked study is consistent with what I observed in my child when he was a toddler.
GP said studies, plural. I cannot confirm that. But the linked study is consistent with what I observed in my child when he was a toddler.
Yes, really.
There's plenty of studies that show that.
There's plenty of studies that show that.
guess toddlers are dumber than babies then https://www.theguardian.com/science/2023/dec/01/singing-to-b...
The comment you made is obstinate and vapid. It does not refute my point and does not even address it. The article you posted has nothing to do whatsoever with the topic at hand. Neither does it discuss toddlers, nor does it discuss the influence of screen time.
If you don't have anything useful to contribute, please be silent. This is not Reddit.
Please do your own research next time.
> The review indicated that an increase in the amount of screen time and an early age of onset of viewing have negative effects on language development, with older age of onset of viewing showing some benefits. Video characteristics, content and co-viewing also influences language development. This study demonstrates that the negative influences of screen time appear to outweigh the positive influences.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8905397/
If you don't have anything useful to contribute, please be silent. This is not Reddit.
Please do your own research next time.
> The review indicated that an increase in the amount of screen time and an early age of onset of viewing have negative effects on language development, with older age of onset of viewing showing some benefits. Video characteristics, content and co-viewing also influences language development. This study demonstrates that the negative influences of screen time appear to outweigh the positive influences.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8905397/
Good point.
I wonder if the problem is children's programming.
I wonder if the problem is children's programming.
My 8-9 year old niece can't speak because of this. Our language has gendered nouns and she can't differentiate between them. She would say Mister to a woman or Mrs to a guy. Or call a guy a she, but this isn't just the only problem, but the conjugations as well.
The problem of course lay with the parents. Not to mention they let her use a regular YT account, well her fathers to be exact and I found out my niece had bookmarked 18+ videos on YT...which I promptly deleted and installed YT kids only for her father to revert to regular YT...on which I then activated child mode or whatever it is.
The problem of course lay with the parents. Not to mention they let her use a regular YT account, well her fathers to be exact and I found out my niece had bookmarked 18+ videos on YT...which I promptly deleted and installed YT kids only for her father to revert to regular YT...on which I then activated child mode or whatever it is.
You're not going to get anywhere trying to apply technical solutions to a social problem. Maybe see if the parents would be willing to get a cheap device just for your niece so they don't have to share?
My 8 and 10 year old are on normal YouTube a lot and screen in general and they’re excelling in elementary school.
But before school ages I socialized with them constantly. Built Legos, showed them SnapCircuits, read books, danced to music and used basic instruments, helped them with basic cooking like measure of ingredients.
It has nothing to do with screen and YouTube and everything to do with hands on practice across contexts.
Non-verbal, inept kids who did not get hands on mentorship have existed forever. There are more ignorant, inept parents in the world than geniuses. In the US only 14% of the public has more than a bachelors while polls suggest public believes it’s closer to 45%-50%
Like much of the world the majority in the US just aren’t that intelligent.
But before school ages I socialized with them constantly. Built Legos, showed them SnapCircuits, read books, danced to music and used basic instruments, helped them with basic cooking like measure of ingredients.
It has nothing to do with screen and YouTube and everything to do with hands on practice across contexts.
Non-verbal, inept kids who did not get hands on mentorship have existed forever. There are more ignorant, inept parents in the world than geniuses. In the US only 14% of the public has more than a bachelors while polls suggest public believes it’s closer to 45%-50%
Like much of the world the majority in the US just aren’t that intelligent.
why are you trying to override her fathers wishes on a device he owns?
and don't tell me it's for the good of the child, if you really and truly believed that you'd call CPS. This feels like a 1-sided story from the perspective of a karen.
and don't tell me it's for the good of the child, if you really and truly believed that you'd call CPS. This feels like a 1-sided story from the perspective of a karen.
Important to note that the study[1] doesn't say what percentage of adult conversation this is, and doesn't analyse the effect on children's language skills.
I think we already knew that "When you're watching a tablet you're not talking to people." - what we're lacking here is any kind of useful detail.
Is 1,000 words 5% of what they might hear in a day? 50%? Seems important to know.
Does an hour of screen time reduce vocabulary by 5%? 50%? Increase it by 50%? Study doesn't tell us.
[1]https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/...
I think we already knew that "When you're watching a tablet you're not talking to people." - what we're lacking here is any kind of useful detail.
Is 1,000 words 5% of what they might hear in a day? 50%? Seems important to know.
Does an hour of screen time reduce vocabulary by 5%? 50%? Increase it by 50%? Study doesn't tell us.
[1]https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/...
According to https://www.greatschools.org/gk/articles/word-gap-speak-more... the range is between 6000 and 21000 words per day, with more being better, and higher numbers being correlated with higher socioeconomic status.
I suspect that doesn't tell the whole story you seem to be getting at, though. My guess is that people who will just hand a toddler a tablet to keep them entertained are probably those who would be at the lower end of that range anyway. The effects of a less linguistically rich environment on a child's language development are cumulative as well. Just saying "oh, 1000 words is 5-15% fewer words per day" seems to downplay the issue too much.
I suspect that doesn't tell the whole story you seem to be getting at, though. My guess is that people who will just hand a toddler a tablet to keep them entertained are probably those who would be at the lower end of that range anyway. The effects of a less linguistically rich environment on a child's language development are cumulative as well. Just saying "oh, 1000 words is 5-15% fewer words per day" seems to downplay the issue too much.
So 1,000 words from 6,000 is a huge amount, and you can definitely see how that would have a major impact. 1,000 out of 21,000 I'd be a lot less worried about.
I guess the message here is "Talk to your kids lots, when you have the energy to do so. That way they can spend their downtime however they fancy."
I guess the message here is "Talk to your kids lots, when you have the energy to do so. That way they can spend their downtime however they fancy."
[deleted]
This article wasn’t what I thought it was going to be. There always seems to be a focus on the screen time children, and this seemed no different. From the title, I assumed this was going to be about the screen time of the adults raising those children. When adults are scrolling on their phone, they generally aren’t talking or interacting with the children around them, which must drastically reduce the number of words a child hears.
And if you're a parent and you're going to be on a screen, come out when the children want you. It's so easy to come out enough to say "uh huh", but they need you, not just a small fragment of your attention.
And that need is not just when they say something. Watch a kid play and they are constantly looking up at the adults in the room to see if they're paying attention and interested in what they're doing. Being lost in a phone isn't great feedback when the kids look up.
I'd be surprised if it were more than a few years before we got something like an "ai"-powered Tickle Me Elmo. The safety/alignment factor would obviously be extremely important, but there would be real benefit to a whole class of children and parents in having a patient and attentive conversation partner.
It would be odd if the child had this and developed the accent of the AI, rather than of the parents.
How many words are spoken onscreen? I was visiting while my friend’s kid learned to talk. The kid watched Toy Story’s Cars on repeat. I watched him day-by-day adding more and more complex turns of phrase directly copied from the film. Did that “Rob him” no it taught him to speak.
There’s enormous variation in the rate at which children learn language and speak, particularly in the age range being studied. It’s not a race. Nobody is robbing kids of spoken words, as if they are entitled to them. Some people maybe don’t talk very much. Some parents are always traveling for work. Some kids grow up running around barefoot in a village. No big deal.
This is another bizarre take. Yes, children are entitled to adult attention because it's mandatory for healthy development. This is also not a race between different kids, but figuring out how different circumstances would affect the same child. It's kind of wild to me that I have to even explain this to an adult.
> Nobody is robbing kids of spoken words, as if they are entitled to them.
Please don't reproduce.
Please don't reproduce.
My garbage parents won't let me watch TV when I was small. Not even educational TV for primary schools children teach stuff like difference between germs and virus. But their low educational background by all mean definitely not offering more to me. They said books are waste of money and they tear apart comic books that I bought using my little saving in front of my eyes. Only thing I can do is doing nothing just siting at home all day. After I made money from partime job and bought myself books, I never talked to them.
Remember that received an invitation to participate IQ test when I was in 3rd grade, gave the letter to my garbage parent and then never heard anything back. Class teacher may have noticed that there is a weird kid in the class and wanted to do something. But sorry miss you can't help me. Babies should be public property and let gov handle them when parents do not meet the intelligence criteria.
Just to say that maybe elsagate videos worth more than some human adults.
Remember that received an invitation to participate IQ test when I was in 3rd grade, gave the letter to my garbage parent and then never heard anything back. Class teacher may have noticed that there is a weird kid in the class and wanted to do something. But sorry miss you can't help me. Babies should be public property and let gov handle them when parents do not meet the intelligence criteria.
Just to say that maybe elsagate videos worth more than some human adults.
Sorry you went thru this.
Not an expert, but my advice to you is to stop blaming your parents. The reason is when you blame others and make yourself a victim, you train yourself to believe that things are out of your hands. Going forward you have a choice. Use it. So your parents stunted your growth; what will you do about your future growth now?
Not an expert, but my advice to you is to stop blaming your parents. The reason is when you blame others and make yourself a victim, you train yourself to believe that things are out of your hands. Going forward you have a choice. Use it. So your parents stunted your growth; what will you do about your future growth now?
Your parents sound shitty but not for the 'no tv' rule tbh.
This is an incredibly unhinged rant that has nothing to do with anything, but seems to have been triggered by the mention of tv. Are you okay?
I truly have no idea what you are advocating for here.
> Babies should be public property and let gov handle them when parents do not meet the intelligence criteria.
Maybe actually read what he wrote.
Maybe actually read what he wrote.
>Babies should be public property and let gov handle them when parents do not meet the intelligence criteria.
The lead was buried but it was there. While I - somewhat - agree with their notion/premise, it only works in governments with a modicum of socialism implemented.
I had the inverse experience from the original commenter: I was promised a test to earn the equivalent credit in school (and advance) but, after waiting and gentling prodding for over half a year, nothing came to fruition. I gave up. If no one else cared, why should I?
Depending on a mostly apathetic system can be as bad as apathetic parents - from first-hand experience.
I don't presume to have a solution, to be sure, but bad parents and/or bad systems aren't easily overcome.
The lead was buried but it was there. While I - somewhat - agree with their notion/premise, it only works in governments with a modicum of socialism implemented.
I had the inverse experience from the original commenter: I was promised a test to earn the equivalent credit in school (and advance) but, after waiting and gentling prodding for over half a year, nothing came to fruition. I gave up. If no one else cared, why should I?
Depending on a mostly apathetic system can be as bad as apathetic parents - from first-hand experience.
I don't presume to have a solution, to be sure, but bad parents and/or bad systems aren't easily overcome.
I hope you don't mind the correction and apologies if you do, but it's actually "the lede was buried," where lede refers to structured writing in which the opening sentence of a paragraph summarises the most important parts of a narrative.
Just for the down-vote, have a look at `lede` not being introduced officially into Merriam-Webster until 2008[1].
[1] - https://www.merriam-webster.com/wordplay/bury-the-lede-versu...
[1] - https://www.merriam-webster.com/wordplay/bury-the-lede-versu...
Here is another explanation that points to the telegraph being the origin, although they could only find one reference to it, while siting countless examples of it not being used outside of this very specific context.
https://www.poynter.org/reporting-editing/2019/lead-vs-lede-...
https://www.poynter.org/reporting-editing/2019/lead-vs-lede-...
*citing countless examples
My daughter is still young (2.5 years old), but I know that I'll let her play video games when she wants as long as it's as part of other activities in the day and that the games are ones that develop either her logic, creativity or motor skills.
Similarly, watching a quality show like bluey, or watching a full movie end to finish like Totoro in Japanese are watching activities I support, whereas watching some crap cartoon made to sell toys is not.